December 18, 2024 • 32 mins
What happens when the person you trusted most turns out to be a master of manipulation? Jamie, a seasoned expert in navigating narcissistic relationships, joins us this week to unravel her personal journey through a 25-year marriage riddled with turmoil and psychological abuse. Her story serves as a testament to the power of advocacy and support systems in what she describes as the "spin cycle" of narcissistic behavior. Through her experience, Jamie emphasizes the distinct yet complementary roles of therapy and coaching in helping individuals break free from these harmful patterns and find their path to healing.
Jamie takes us on a deep dive into the intricate spectrum of narcissistic behaviors, from those that cause emotional discomfort to the more insidious forms of psychological abuse. She brings to light the tactics often employed by narcissistic individuals, such as triangulation, passive-aggression, and gaslighting, while providing a safe and nonjudgmental space for those entangled in such relationships. Her mission is to empower clients by validating their experiences and offering them the language to articulate their feelings, which is crucial for understanding and overcoming the challenges posed by narcissistic partners.
Explore the nuances of personalized coaching as Jamie discusses the importance of active listening and the journey of rediscovering oneself after toxic relationships. This episode highlights the impact of toxic family dynamics and underscores the critical need for improved communication. With a commitment to accessibility, Jamie offers a complimentary consultation and adjustable rates, ensuring anyone seeking her guidance can benefit from her expertise. Whether you're seeking support or simply curious, this conversation provides valuable insights into navigating and overcoming the trials of narcissistic relationships.
To reach out to Jamie to see if she can help you:
spincyclecoaching@gmail.com
www.stopthespincycle.com
https://www.facebook.com/stopthespincycle
Hi and welcome to Thrive and Decide. I’m your host Sarah Thress. This podcast is intended to help women who are going through a divorce, continplating divorce or have lost a spouse feel seen, heard, understood and not alone. All the beautiful souls who share on here are coming from a place of vulnerability and a common belief that sharing your story will help others. You will also hear from industry experts on what to do and not do while going through a divorce.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week we are talking withJamie, who I was introduced to
through a mutual friend and whatI found so intriguing was the
fact that she has really honedin on narcissistic behaviors and
(00:21):
how to kind of help peoplebehaviors and how to kind of
help people get through, youknow, narcissistic relationships
or situations, um, how to likeun-gaslight yourself, all the,
all the things, um, so you know.
So I reached out to Jamie and Iasked her if she'd be willing
to come on the podcast and justkind of talk about you know what
(00:42):
it is that she does, um how shecoaches people through, uh, and
how she's able to, you know,just kind of help people come
out on the other side like abetter version of themselves.
So, jamie, thank you so muchfor taking time out.
I know you're super busy,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
No, I'm so glad to do this.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So I guess, kind of walk us through, because I
unfortunately have known severalpeople that have been in
narcissistic relationships and Ifeel like I feel like that term
gets thrown out a lot, so I'dlove for you to kind of walk us
through, like how did you figureout, like how to just kind of
hone in on what is anarcissistic behavior and what
(01:24):
does that look like, and youknow like, I guess, just all the
things.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, yeah, right it's.
It's certainly not something Itend to discuss at a cocktail
party.
I try to stick withrelationship coach.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I, um, yeah, this is my world, Um, and I'm
just embracing the fact thatit's my world and that a lot of
things that have come into lightfor me can be shared, and I
truly believe that if you don'tspeak this out loud, if you
(02:01):
don't shine some light on it,it'll stay in darkness, it'll
stay in shame, it will stay inyou, even gaslighting yourself.
So we're going to shine somebrightness on this, and I was.
I was in a 25 year marriagewith a man who was actually
(02:23):
diagnosed with narcissisticpersonality disorder, but I
didn't want to see it at thetime.
I never researched it.
I didn't see why I should.
I knew I was going to stay, andso, as I was leaving my
marriage, the narcissism turnedinto really scary rage and
(02:47):
behaviors I hadn't seen before,like trying to really hurt me,
whether it was physically orwhether it was well, certainly
reputation-wise, right, and hedidn't have any remorse.
I mean, it was.
It was really frightening, um,and so I have always been an
(03:13):
advocate.
It's always been in my DNA,since elementary school, when I
stood up to a really mean girl,um, and then I have a daughter
who's on the autism spectrum andshe needed tons of advocacy
through school and and still,and so I'm wired for that.
And when I was in my highconflict divorce, which lasted
(03:37):
two years, I needed a ton ofsupport, yeah, and I actually
envisioned having a bench behindme and I would put different
people on my team and then Iwould call them up when I needed
them.
So that was a good attorney,that was a good financial
advisor, that was actually aforensic accountant for me.
That was a therapist.
(03:58):
I also had a coach and I lovedall of them and there's a
difference between therapy andcoaching, for they can certainly
overlap.
But a therapist was so helpfulto me in terms of really looking
at my child development andkind of how I got shaped into
(04:20):
the person I was.
That was a real possible victimto someone who is a high
functioning narcissist, yeah,and a coach is really someone
that's helped, will help youkind of move forward, and that
was appealing to me.
And so I got a coach and Istarted to learn all of the
(04:44):
things about narcissism.
And I don't diagnose narcissism, um, but we all can look at
behaviors and patterns and trulynarcissism really operates on a
playbook.
Uh, it is a cycle of behaviorsthat you keep going through.
It's very strange.
(05:05):
I wish they could do a study onit.
Um, but no one with narcissismgoes in to be studied.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, because there's nothing wrong with them.
It's you Right, exactly,exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So I don't think that's happening soon, right, um
, and so that's why I call mybusiness the spin cycle, because
I like that when you're in thecycle, you're spinning.
Yeah, you know, and I think allpeople that experience this
understand what that means.
I really thought that again, Ihad someone come alongside of me
(05:47):
to help me become aware of thepatterns and the behaviors, how
it was really affecting mychildren, just the whole family
system, and how that operates.
What I was doing to maintainthat what I was doing, to
maintain that what I was doingto enable things not because I
(06:09):
was bad, because I was surviving, I mean all survival responses
and I, even at the end, when Iknew I'm going to keep a little
secret in my mind about gettingdivorced, um, I knew that I was.
Um, I'm sorry, I just lost mytrain of thought.
(06:33):
Um, I was, uh, just kind ofdeciding how to self preserve,
yeah, and I have clients thatare just like you know I.
You know I'm not leaning rightnow.
I'm self-preserving, yeah, andso I never judge anyone where
they're at on their own spectrumof dealing with this.
I was in it for 25 years.
(06:54):
Um, but what I will do, um, andthrough I went through a
training with the internationalcoaching federation because I
really did want a set of ethicsand standards.
Yeah, because coaching isn'tsomething where you have to get
a license.
Yeah, but I really wanted that.
(07:15):
And the process of coaching Ifind so wonderful.
It's so you have to do it toreally know it, but it's what
you're doing is you're creatinga space for a person and they
can just take one thing it couldbe how to organize your closet,
(07:38):
yeah, and by asking a series ofquestions, you will become
aware of the best way and how todo it.
Yeah, but all of that getsstuck in us.
We don't know how to bring thatout by ourselves a lot of times
because we have so many blindspots, we have so many, um,
self-protective mechanisms inplace.
(07:59):
Yeah, that it's hard to do onyour own.
And so once you do that and youbecome aware, I believe that
awareness is the gateway tochange.
So, once you become aware ofthe things, then you can start
looking at okay, how can I dothis differently, how can I
(08:20):
preserve, what kinds of toolscan I use?
So I'm not feeling this way,but feeling more empowered.
Um, if you've been in along-term narcissistic
relationship, one of thehallmarks is that you lose your
power.
Yes, you really, and not it'snot your fault.
Really, and not it's not yourfault.
(08:46):
Um, because of all the coercivepractices.
Um, a lot of this is verypsychologically based and so you
just succumb to it.
We've all seen cults, you know,and, and thought how did they
get pulled into that narrative?
Right, it's super easy actually.
Narrative, it's super easyactually.
(09:08):
And it's all psychological andactually, the more of a critical
thinker you are and this soundsvery counterintuitive the
easier it is to be pulled intosomething.
You stop using your criticalthinking skills and you go along
.
So there is a ton ofinfrastructure here that needs
to be understood.
And when you can understand ittoo, that's also such a light
(09:30):
bulb, because you start makingconnections and then you start
having a language for what'shappening and what's going on.
Knowledge is understanding,understanding is knowledge, yeah
, and then knowledge is powerand knowledge is power, yeah,
and that's a way for you tostart taking back your power.
Um, because people in theserelationships lose their ability
(09:52):
to self-validate.
It's just normal, yeah, um, andthis helps you learn how to
start validating yourself again,and so it's very step-by-step,
well, and I have to believe too.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
When that light bulb does go off and you do, you know
, start like realizing holy shit, like I am in this narcissistic
relationship, I need to go.
Once you start like reclaimingyour power, it I have to imagine
that that does nothing but pissoff the narcissist because they
(10:28):
no longer have that power overyou.
And so then that is where youknow, like when you were sharing
, at the end, once you startedstanding up for yourself, things
got worse.
I have to believe, andobviously you know you're you're
much more of an expert than Iam, but I have to believe that
it must be that they lost thatpower.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It's really tricky.
It's really tricky, um, and soevery situation is different.
But, uh, I I learned a lot ofthe hard ways.
You know I fell into the to thethe pits sometimes.
It's you know, I fell into thepits sometimes, and so you know,
I know now that you kind offight strategy with strategy
(11:09):
Narcissism is.
They have almost a playbook ofstrategies and there are ways
you can do things that won't getthem so shaken up by a loss of
power and control.
There are strategies, there aretechniques.
(11:30):
Having said that, it's going tobe hard, yeah, getting out is
hard, yeah, and there's a lot ofthings to be aware of before
you start doing it.
Like, how do I support mychildren?
Because this is like a littlecountry now and it's a system,
(11:53):
so everybody's part of that, andit's not just you your children
now have developed their ownways of surviving, surviving
their own ways of meeting thenarcissist's needs.
And you're all like, what do wedo now?
Yeah, um.
So I work with a lot of peopleon better supporting their
(12:15):
children, Um, and obviouslythemselves, um, it, it, it and,
as I said, it's not always aboutsomeone saying I want to get
divorced right now and obviouslythemselves, and, as I said,
it's not always about someonesaying I want to get divorced
right now.
Yeah, it's a process and somepeople, every situation is so
different because there's a lotof different kinds of narcissism
.
Yes, right, so you have acovert narcissist who's very
(12:39):
charming to everybody else buttheir family, and you have a
malignant narcissist.
They're scary people that was myex which almost, as my
therapist says, bleeds intoantisocial personality disorder,
(12:59):
which would make sense.
There's a group of personalitydisorders, disorders called
cluster B Okay, narcissisticpersonality disorder is in that
cluster Um and antisocialpersonality disorder um,
borderline personality disorder,sociopathy and psychopathy
(13:19):
they're all part of that and soyou need to be careful, uh,
cause those folks are thescariest Um.
I wasn't aware that he was amalignant narcissist, but now I
am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, Now what qualities make you a malignant
narcissist, Like, or is there away to kind of pinpoint, like,
if they do this, this, this orthis, then this is how they
would be classified.
Again, I know you don't, youdon't diagnose people right,
Like.
You know, if someone came toyou and was talking to you, what
is it that they say to you thatthen makes you go?
(13:54):
Oh yeah, it sounds like you'redealing with a malignant
narcissist or it sounds likeyou're dealing with.
You know XYZ type of narcissistRight.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
When they, when a malignant narcissist receives an
injury, meaning they get a hitto their ego or you know, they
sense they're losing what's mostimportant to them and power and
control.
They start to unravel and itlooks like they'll do anything
(14:26):
to hurt you Anything, whetherit's physical, whether it's just
stalking, whether it's justcreepy behavior, a lot of
intimidating behavior andthere's no remorse associated
with it, and they will even usetheir own children to do that.
(14:47):
They don't have theirchildren's best interest in mind
ever.
They don't care that this childmight be emotionally affected
for the rest of their lives.
It's all about them being incontrol.
It's malignant, it is just allconsuming.
And so that lack of remorsereally feeds into the antisocial
(15:12):
piece where they could dosomething like this did not
happen to me, but they may killan animal right just just to
hurt someone.
Yeah, and there's no remorseover it.
It's like what I mean?
I who cares, and it's notsomething you see, necessarily
until you start to really injurethem.
(15:33):
Wow, um, that's a really scarykind.
Uh, yeah, right.
But then there are other.
It's a spectrum.
There are other kinds ofnarcissists that do have the
world revolves around them.
They do have an ego, butthey're not going to actually
try to hurt you, right.
(15:54):
They may make your lifeuncomfortable and miserable, but
they're not going to hurt youand they're not going to hurt
the children.
They'll still say you know,your mother is your mother,
right, and she deserves respect,or something like that.
But they can also be abusivepeople, and there are people
(16:17):
that use emotionally abusivebehaviors, like triangulation,
being passive, aggressivestonewalling.
And it gets worse, I think,with psychological abuse, yeah,
which is more gaslighting,coercive control and
manipulation.
(16:37):
Yes, so that's where you havedifferent kinds of people.
It just depends on, you know,I'm sure for them it depends on
what they sustain during theirown child development, right, um
, and you know, some narcissistsactually seek out some support,
(17:00):
but not many do, right, becausethey would have to believe that
there was something wrong withthem and it would look weak,
right?
So it's hard to say.
It's not a one size fits all.
It really depends on the kindof abuse you're going through
(17:22):
and how you can offer wins tothe narcissist little wins, yeah
, so that there that injury isnot as bad.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
So if someone comes to youbecause you know, I know you're
really passionate about helpingwomen, you know kind of get
through this and all of that.
So if someone finds themselvesin a situation where they're
like I really you know, I'mpretty sure you know, either my
husband was diagnosed or I'mpretty sure that they were, or
(17:56):
maybe it's their wife.
You know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Oh yeah, I've worked with men too, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, you never know Like it may be.
So whoever comes to you thatthey feel like their other
person is narcissistic, how doyou kind of start, you know,
like that conversation with them?
What can you expect coming, youknow, to you?
You know just things like that.
Like I'd love for people tokind of understand how you are
(18:23):
able to help them.
You know, not only becauseyou've lived through it, but
also because you've done suchextensive you know, like
studying of this and you, youknow, I mean you just you
fascinate me, like I hate thatthis is something we've had to
study, but because I hate thatyou know that we've been put in
this situation where people, youknow, find it okay to gaslight
(18:45):
us and make us feel like they'recrazy ones.
But so I guess just kind ofwalk me through like the process
, like does someone just contactyou and you, you know, listen
to their story and then you knowlike help them, like what does
it kind of look like?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, um, so I have you.
You know, on my website there'slike a toxic 12 quiz and people
often take that and then theywill submit something with their
responses, right, ok, give me alittle bit of background
through their submission form,and so, in talking with them,
like I'll do a 20 minute consult, I'll have them tell me a
(19:22):
little bit about their story,and you know it's a space that's
completely nonjudgmental.
Obviously, I will validate someof the things and I will talk
about things and they instantlystart to connect with what I'm
talking about, which, I think tothem, it lightens them a bit
Because, oh, I might be morenormal than I thought.
Which, I think to them, itlightens them a bit because, oh,
(19:43):
I might be more normal than Ithought.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right, and I found someone who gets it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That's right, because I've developed the language
that helps describe what they'refeeling, because they don't
have it.
And language is so powerfulbecause then you can research it
and you can say, oh, thatsounds so familiar.
Let me look into this.
Oh, my God, I'm being gaslit.
Yeah, I remember a friend onetime I was already divorced and
(20:13):
she was not in a good marriageand she said something and I
just casually said that soundslike he's gaslighting you and
she's like what is that?
And she went on to justunderstand that and, um, it was
so helpful.
Yeah, but it's it's, it's thelanguage.
So, but when I start a coachingprocess, I start where they want
(20:35):
to start.
We look at what they want tolook, look like right.
Then, yeah, you know, it's nota pre-programmed kind of thing,
like you know, we're going tostart here and then we're going
to go here and here's someexercises.
I don't do that, right, it'svery co-active, um, where we
have a session, we talk aboutwhat they want to talk about.
(20:56):
Now, when they're talking, I amactively listening and hearing
so many other things that arecoming out.
What I will do is say what I'mhearing are these kinds of
things.
I think that's willing.
That would be something toexplore.
But I want to ask if you wantto keep exploring this?
Yeah, because it's theirpriority, because it's their
(21:18):
priority, it's their goal.
But I might then also say Ithink it's worth at some point
maybe looking more at this, andso, after you know, after we're
done, I will kind of ask them tokind of recap their own kind of
takeaways, and then I recapevery session by email, which
(21:41):
people find very helpful.
Yeah, because you are goingthrough a lot emotionally.
It's hard to hear all thethings sometimes, and so I will
recap that information, maybesend some other tools, but it's
so individualized because everysituation is so different.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, Well, and that's what I think makes you so
good at what you do, is thatyou understand there's not a one
size fits all because I think,unfortunately a lot of us.
You know, nowadays we're so usedto that quick fix, that quick,
like you know that what can I doto drop 20 pounds, what can I
(22:23):
do to do this or that?
You know, and we just want likethat quick fix.
Or you know, someone guaranteesif you follow this, you're
going to have this, you knowresult or whatever.
So I love the fact that youtailor everything to each person
how they're individually, youknow what they need.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Right, and I'll even say to them, like we're talking
about maybe a goal, yeah, I'llsay, is this something you could
operationalize?
And I hear a lot of times Ican't.
I say, okay, well, that's goodto know.
Let's talk about what you cando.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You know, let's talk about ways then to help you
preserve, through this, maybe aboundary here and there, but it
doesn't sound like you can goall the way right now.
Right, that's understandable.
I it's so understandable.
I did it for 25 years.
I mean, you know, I heard myhusband was diagnosed with
(23:23):
narcissistic personalitydisorder and I decided to just
unhear the words, right?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
So I understand that Well, because I'm sure he gaslit
you into thinking that personhas no idea what they're talking
about and you.
So you were like, oh yeah, it'snot that bad, he just is angry
sometimes, that's okay.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know I right.
Yeah, I had a woman tell methat my husband didn't love me
once and I'm like I blamed her.
Yeah, she shouldn't have saidit the way she did.
But, um, you know, it's easy totalk yourself out of what
you're most deeply scared of.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, that is so true.
And I think that we as women,you know, and men, if men are
listening to this, we're not manhaters here at all Um, but I
think, especially as women, wejust internalize everything.
And you know, I mean, I didn't,I don't think that I was
dealing with a narcissist withmy ex-husband, I really don't.
(24:20):
I just think that our situationjust, you know, it just didn't
work out.
But you know, like it's just.
It's interesting, though, howyou like lose pieces of yourself
slowly, you know, and evengoing through what I, you know,
just going through my divorce,like I realized, holy crap, like
I made myself so small to fitinto this marriage and I've I
(24:41):
lost so many pieces of myselfthat I didn't even know I was
losing.
So, you know, if that happensin a like quote unquote like
normal marriage, you know thatlike just fell apart, I can't
even imagine, you know, becausewe as women, we are like well,
what did we do wrong?
Because that was the firstquestion that I asked myself
(25:01):
what could I have done better tomake him love me, to make him
not fall out of love with me?
What could I have done?
You know, like, how could Ihave been a better wife, because
obviously this must be my fault.
You know when, looking back atit, it was nobody's fault, it
just happened.
We just weren't the right fit,and that's okay.
Like not a big deal.
But you know, I feel like whenyou're in this situation which
is why I love that you askpeople where are you at?
(25:23):
What do you want to focus on?
Because you know it may be toomuch to look at all of it or to
shine a light on like Holy crap,I've let him like roll over me
you know, like my entiremarriage and you know, and then
you get the shame and the guiltand the how did I let myself get
here?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's right People have.
They're at their own speed andbeing aware of things.
Yeah, it's probably in theresomewhere, but you got to do it
at your own speed, um, becauseotherwise it's not going to
stick.
And so you know, if you, somany people don't realize
sometimes that they're usingtoxic behaviors because they've
(26:01):
grown up with them, right, right, so I can identify.
Okay, that's really you do.
Your family sounds like a toxicsystem, but when you do the
work to understand it and do thework to learn how to better
communicate, it can get better.
Right, at least for yourself,yeah.
(26:22):
But when you're dealing withmore narcissistic things, that's
more power and control.
That's really hard.
They're both hard, yeah, butyou can recover for some of
those toxic, abusive behaviorswithin a family or even in a
marriage, if you're both willingto go.
Oh, I didn't realize that wasunhealthy and I want to learn
(26:47):
how to better communicate withyou.
Right, that doesn't happen in anarcissistic relationship,
right.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, I mean it would .
It sounds like you know itwould be amazing.
Oh wonderful yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I mean it sounds like you know it would be amazing,
oh wonderful, yeah, well, yeah,I mean nobody wants to leave a
marriage, no, where they feelloved and secure and
communicated with.
But that's never the goal.
And also the other thing withnarcissism is that you tend to
get fairly isolated and so it'sharder to leave because you feel
like, oh my gosh, all of ourfriends now are really his
(27:18):
friends.
Yeah, I've kind of given up alot for this marriage.
I don't even see my family muchanymore and they realize how
isolated they've become, andthat adds a level of fear like
no other.
So, yeah, so, yeah.
So on my website, you know, Italk about the narcissistic
(27:40):
spectrum, what it looks like,what it can look like.
I have a toxic 12 quiz.
I have just a lot of goodinformation.
I also have a blog page and Itry to blog about once a month
(28:00):
and that can be very helpfulAgain, just to maybe hear bits
and pieces of yourself in astory.
Yeah, because they're my storiesyeah, but I'll have someone
email me and say I'm reallyconnected to that one, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, I hate that you had to gothrough such a horrible
situation to get where you are,but I love that you took
something so horrible and turnit into something so positive.
That helps not only you healand grow and become the person
(28:39):
that you were meant to be, butyou also are out there spreading
the word normalizing, talkingabout this stuff and, you know,
also helping others to get toyou know, a better place, so
that they can start their ownjourney of becoming who they're
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's right.
And again, when you, when youdon't let some light in, all
you're going to feel is judgedand shamed and alone.
Yeah and um, and that's why Idid this.
I mean I was able to not havethat.
I mean I'm not saying I neverfelt that way, but, um, I think
(29:16):
the key to me being successfulis by getting so much support,
and I learned how to ask forhelp.
I still do, and I think that wewere all designed for that.
So this is something that Ifind so rewarding.
When someone becomes aware ofsomething, it is just my best
(29:40):
day.
Yeah, because they're owningthat and it's really powerful.
Yeah, it's a piece of them.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I love that yeah.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much again.
I appreciate you taking thetime.
I know you're super busy, butyou took time out to share this.
I love the work that you'redoing.
I will definitely make surethat all of your information is
in the show notes Great, so thatway, if somebody is listening,
it's like holy crap, I need someJamie in my life, Like I'm
(30:09):
calling her.
I'm going to go to her website.
I'm going to do the 12, youknow, the toxic 12.
And I'm going to book a sessionand all of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So we'll have that on there.
Thank you.
We'll talk in a complimentaryway for 20 minutes and see if
that's a fit.
I also just try to reallymodify my rate based on people's
ability to pay.
Yeah, so I can do that and Iwant to do that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Excellent.
Well, thank you so much.
You're welcome, thank.
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Thrive
and Decide.
This week we are talking withJamie, who I was introduced to
through a mutual friend and whatI found so intriguing was the
fact that she has really honedin on narcissistic behaviors and
(00:21):
how to kind of help peoplebehaviors and how to kind of
help people get through, youknow, narcissistic relationships
or situations, um, how to likeun-gaslight yourself, all the,
all the things, um, so you know.
So I reached out to Jamie and Iasked her if she'd be willing
to come on the podcast and justkind of talk about you know what
(00:42):
it is that she does, um how shecoaches people through, uh, and
how she's able to, you know,just kind of help people come
out on the other side like abetter version of themselves.
So, jamie, thank you so muchfor taking time out.
I know you're super busy,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
No, I'm so glad to do this.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So I guess, kind of walk us through, because I
unfortunately have known severalpeople that have been in
narcissistic relationships and Ifeel like I feel like that term
gets thrown out a lot, so I'dlove for you to kind of walk us
through, like how did you figureout, like how to just kind of
hone in on what is anarcissistic behavior and what
(01:24):
does that look like, and youknow like, I guess, just all the
things.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, yeah, right it's.
It's certainly not something Itend to discuss at a cocktail
party.
I try to stick withrelationship coach.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I, um, yeah, this is my world, Um, and I'm
just embracing the fact thatit's my world and that a lot of
things that have come into lightfor me can be shared, and I
truly believe that if you don'tspeak this out loud, if you
(02:01):
don't shine some light on it,it'll stay in darkness, it'll
stay in shame, it will stay inyou, even gaslighting yourself.
So we're going to shine somebrightness on this, and I was.
I was in a 25 year marriagewith a man who was actually
(02:23):
diagnosed with narcissisticpersonality disorder, but I
didn't want to see it at thetime.
I never researched it.
I didn't see why I should.
I knew I was going to stay, andso, as I was leaving my
marriage, the narcissism turnedinto really scary rage and
(02:47):
behaviors I hadn't seen before,like trying to really hurt me,
whether it was physically orwhether it was well, certainly
reputation-wise, right, and hedidn't have any remorse.
I mean, it was.
It was really frightening, um,and so I have always been an
(03:13):
advocate.
It's always been in my DNA,since elementary school, when I
stood up to a really mean girl,um, and then I have a daughter
who's on the autism spectrum andshe needed tons of advocacy
through school and and still,and so I'm wired for that.
And when I was in my highconflict divorce, which lasted
(03:37):
two years, I needed a ton ofsupport, yeah, and I actually
envisioned having a bench behindme and I would put different
people on my team and then Iwould call them up when I needed
them.
So that was a good attorney,that was a good financial
advisor, that was actually aforensic accountant for me.
That was a therapist.
(03:58):
I also had a coach and I lovedall of them and there's a
difference between therapy andcoaching, for they can certainly
overlap.
But a therapist was so helpfulto me in terms of really looking
at my child development andkind of how I got shaped into
(04:20):
the person I was.
That was a real possible victimto someone who is a high
functioning narcissist, yeah,and a coach is really someone
that's helped, will help youkind of move forward, and that
was appealing to me.
And so I got a coach and Istarted to learn all of the
(04:44):
things about narcissism.
And I don't diagnose narcissism, um, but we all can look at
behaviors and patterns and trulynarcissism really operates on a
playbook.
Uh, it is a cycle of behaviorsthat you keep going through.
It's very strange.
(05:05):
I wish they could do a study onit.
Um, but no one with narcissismgoes in to be studied.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Well, because there's nothing wrong with them.
It's you Right, exactly,exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So I don't think that's happening soon, right, um
, and so that's why I call mybusiness the spin cycle, because
I like that when you're in thecycle, you're spinning.
Yeah, you know, and I think allpeople that experience this
understand what that means.
I really thought that again, Ihad someone come alongside of me
(05:47):
to help me become aware of thepatterns and the behaviors, how
it was really affecting mychildren, just the whole family
system, and how that operates.
What I was doing to maintainthat what I was doing, to
maintain that what I was doingto enable things not because I
(06:09):
was bad, because I was surviving, I mean all survival responses
and I, even at the end, when Iknew I'm going to keep a little
secret in my mind about gettingdivorced, um, I knew that I was.
Um, I'm sorry, I just lost mytrain of thought.
(06:33):
Um, I was, uh, just kind ofdeciding how to self preserve,
yeah, and I have clients thatare just like you know I.
You know I'm not leaning rightnow.
I'm self-preserving, yeah, andso I never judge anyone where
they're at on their own spectrumof dealing with this.
I was in it for 25 years.
(06:54):
Um, but what I will do, um, andthrough I went through a
training with the internationalcoaching federation because I
really did want a set of ethicsand standards.
Yeah, because coaching isn'tsomething where you have to get
a license.
Yeah, but I really wanted that.
(07:15):
And the process of coaching Ifind so wonderful.
It's so you have to do it toreally know it, but it's what
you're doing is you're creatinga space for a person and they
can just take one thing it couldbe how to organize your closet,
(07:38):
yeah, and by asking a series ofquestions, you will become
aware of the best way and how todo it.
Yeah, but all of that getsstuck in us.
We don't know how to bring thatout by ourselves a lot of times
because we have so many blindspots, we have so many, um,
self-protective mechanisms inplace.
(07:59):
Yeah, that it's hard to do onyour own.
And so once you do that and youbecome aware, I believe that
awareness is the gateway tochange.
So, once you become aware ofthe things, then you can start
looking at okay, how can I dothis differently, how can I
(08:20):
preserve, what kinds of toolscan I use?
So I'm not feeling this way,but feeling more empowered.
Um, if you've been in along-term narcissistic
relationship, one of thehallmarks is that you lose your
power.
Yes, you really, and not it'snot your fault.
Really, and not it's not yourfault.
(08:46):
Um, because of all the coercivepractices.
Um, a lot of this is verypsychologically based and so you
just succumb to it.
We've all seen cults, you know,and, and thought how did they
get pulled into that narrative?
Right, it's super easy actually.
Narrative, it's super easyactually.
(09:08):
And it's all psychological andactually, the more of a critical
thinker you are and this soundsvery counterintuitive the
easier it is to be pulled intosomething.
You stop using your criticalthinking skills and you go along
.
So there is a ton ofinfrastructure here that needs
to be understood.
And when you can understand ittoo, that's also such a light
(09:30):
bulb, because you start makingconnections and then you start
having a language for what'shappening and what's going on.
Knowledge is understanding,understanding is knowledge, yeah
, and then knowledge is powerand knowledge is power, yeah,
and that's a way for you tostart taking back your power.
Um, because people in theserelationships lose their ability
(09:52):
to self-validate.
It's just normal, yeah, um, andthis helps you learn how to
start validating yourself again,and so it's very step-by-step,
well, and I have to believe too.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
When that light bulb does go off and you do, you know
, start like realizing holy shit, like I am in this narcissistic
relationship, I need to go.
Once you start like reclaimingyour power, it I have to imagine
that that does nothing but pissoff the narcissist because they
(10:28):
no longer have that power overyou.
And so then that is where youknow, like when you were sharing
, at the end, once you startedstanding up for yourself, things
got worse.
I have to believe, andobviously you know you're you're
much more of an expert than Iam, but I have to believe that
it must be that they lost thatpower.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It's really tricky.
It's really tricky, um, and soevery situation is different.
But, uh, I I learned a lot ofthe hard ways.
You know I fell into the to thethe pits sometimes.
It's you know, I fell into thepits sometimes, and so you know,
I know now that you kind offight strategy with strategy
(11:09):
Narcissism is.
They have almost a playbook ofstrategies and there are ways
you can do things that won't getthem so shaken up by a loss of
power and control.
There are strategies, there aretechniques.
(11:30):
Having said that, it's going tobe hard, yeah, getting out is
hard, yeah, and there's a lot ofthings to be aware of before
you start doing it.
Like, how do I support mychildren?
Because this is like a littlecountry now and it's a system,
(11:53):
so everybody's part of that, andit's not just you your children
now have developed their ownways of surviving, surviving
their own ways of meeting thenarcissist's needs.
And you're all like, what do wedo now?
Yeah, um.
So I work with a lot of peopleon better supporting their
(12:15):
children, Um, and obviouslythemselves, um, it, it, it and,
as I said, it's not always aboutsomeone saying I want to get
divorced right now and obviouslythemselves, and, as I said,
it's not always about someonesaying I want to get divorced
right now.
Yeah, it's a process and somepeople, every situation is so
different because there's a lotof different kinds of narcissism
.
Yes, right, so you have acovert narcissist who's very
(12:39):
charming to everybody else buttheir family, and you have a
malignant narcissist.
They're scary people that was myex which almost, as my
therapist says, bleeds intoantisocial personality disorder,
(12:59):
which would make sense.
There's a group of personalitydisorders, disorders called
cluster B Okay, narcissisticpersonality disorder is in that
cluster Um and antisocialpersonality disorder um,
borderline personality disorder,sociopathy and psychopathy
(13:19):
they're all part of that and soyou need to be careful, uh,
cause those folks are thescariest Um.
I wasn't aware that he was amalignant narcissist, but now I
am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, Now what qualities make you a malignant
narcissist, Like, or is there away to kind of pinpoint, like,
if they do this, this, this orthis, then this is how they
would be classified.
Again, I know you don't, youdon't diagnose people right,
Like.
You know, if someone came toyou and was talking to you, what
is it that they say to you thatthen makes you go?
(13:54):
Oh yeah, it sounds like you'redealing with a malignant
narcissist or it sounds likeyou're dealing with.
You know XYZ type of narcissistRight.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
When they, when a malignant narcissist receives an
injury, meaning they get a hitto their ego or you know, they
sense they're losing what's mostimportant to them and power and
control.
They start to unravel and itlooks like they'll do anything
(14:26):
to hurt you Anything, whetherit's physical, whether it's just
stalking, whether it's justcreepy behavior, a lot of
intimidating behavior andthere's no remorse associated
with it, and they will even usetheir own children to do that.
(14:47):
They don't have theirchildren's best interest in mind
ever.
They don't care that this childmight be emotionally affected
for the rest of their lives.
It's all about them being incontrol.
It's malignant, it is just allconsuming.
And so that lack of remorsereally feeds into the antisocial
(15:12):
piece where they could dosomething like this did not
happen to me, but they may killan animal right just just to
hurt someone.
Yeah, and there's no remorseover it.
It's like what I mean?
I who cares, and it's notsomething you see, necessarily
until you start to really injurethem.
(15:33):
Wow, um, that's a really scarykind.
Uh, yeah, right.
But then there are other.
It's a spectrum.
There are other kinds ofnarcissists that do have the
world revolves around them.
They do have an ego, butthey're not going to actually
try to hurt you, right.
(15:54):
They may make your lifeuncomfortable and miserable, but
they're not going to hurt youand they're not going to hurt
the children.
They'll still say you know,your mother is your mother,
right, and she deserves respect,or something like that.
But they can also be abusivepeople, and there are people
(16:17):
that use emotionally abusivebehaviors, like triangulation,
being passive, aggressivestonewalling.
And it gets worse, I think,with psychological abuse, yeah,
which is more gaslighting,coercive control and
manipulation.
(16:37):
Yes, so that's where you havedifferent kinds of people.
It just depends on, you know,I'm sure for them it depends on
what they sustain during theirown child development, right, um
, and you know, some narcissistsactually seek out some support,
(17:00):
but not many do, right, becausethey would have to believe that
there was something wrong withthem and it would look weak,
right?
So it's hard to say.
It's not a one size fits all.
It really depends on the kindof abuse you're going through
(17:22):
and how you can offer wins tothe narcissist little wins, yeah
, so that there that injury isnot as bad.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
So if someone comes to youbecause you know, I know you're
really passionate about helpingwomen, you know kind of get
through this and all of that.
So if someone finds themselvesin a situation where they're
like I really you know, I'mpretty sure you know, either my
husband was diagnosed or I'mpretty sure that they were, or
(17:56):
maybe it's their wife.
You know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Oh yeah, I've worked with men too, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, you never know Like it may be.
So whoever comes to you thatthey feel like their other
person is narcissistic, how doyou kind of start, you know,
like that conversation with them?
What can you expect coming, youknow, to you?
You know just things like that.
Like I'd love for people tokind of understand how you are
(18:23):
able to help them.
You know, not only becauseyou've lived through it, but
also because you've done suchextensive you know, like
studying of this and you, youknow, I mean you just you
fascinate me, like I hate thatthis is something we've had to
study, but because I hate thatyou know that we've been put in
this situation where people, youknow, find it okay to gaslight
(18:45):
us and make us feel like they'recrazy ones.
But so I guess just kind ofwalk me through like the process
, like does someone just contactyou and you, you know, listen
to their story and then you knowlike help them, like what does
it kind of look like?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, um, so I have you.
You know, on my website there'slike a toxic 12 quiz and people
often take that and then theywill submit something with their
responses, right, ok, give me alittle bit of background
through their submission form,and so, in talking with them,
like I'll do a 20 minute consult, I'll have them tell me a
(19:22):
little bit about their story,and you know it's a space that's
completely nonjudgmental.
Obviously, I will validate someof the things and I will talk
about things and they instantlystart to connect with what I'm
talking about, which, I think tothem, it lightens them a bit
Because, oh, I might be morenormal than I thought.
Which, I think to them, itlightens them a bit because, oh,
(19:43):
I might be more normal than Ithought.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right, and I found someone who gets it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
That's right, because I've developed the language
that helps describe what they'refeeling, because they don't
have it.
And language is so powerfulbecause then you can research it
and you can say, oh, thatsounds so familiar.
Let me look into this.
Oh, my God, I'm being gaslit.
Yeah, I remember a friend onetime I was already divorced and
(20:13):
she was not in a good marriageand she said something and I
just casually said that soundslike he's gaslighting you and
she's like what is that?
And she went on to justunderstand that and, um, it was
so helpful.
Yeah, but it's it's, it's thelanguage.
So, but when I start a coachingprocess, I start where they want
(20:35):
to start.
We look at what they want tolook, look like right.
Then, yeah, you know, it's nota pre-programmed kind of thing,
like you know, we're going tostart here and then we're going
to go here and here's someexercises.
I don't do that, right, it'svery co-active, um, where we
have a session, we talk aboutwhat they want to talk about.
(20:56):
Now, when they're talking, I amactively listening and hearing
so many other things that arecoming out.
What I will do is say what I'mhearing are these kinds of
things.
I think that's willing.
That would be something toexplore.
But I want to ask if you wantto keep exploring this?
Yeah, because it's theirpriority, because it's their
(21:18):
priority, it's their goal.
But I might then also say Ithink it's worth at some point
maybe looking more at this, andso, after you know, after we're
done, I will kind of ask them tokind of recap their own kind of
takeaways, and then I recapevery session by email, which
(21:41):
people find very helpful.
Yeah, because you are goingthrough a lot emotionally.
It's hard to hear all thethings sometimes, and so I will
recap that information, maybesend some other tools, but it's
so individualized because everysituation is so different.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Yeah, Well, and that's what I think makes you so
good at what you do, is thatyou understand there's not a one
size fits all because I think,unfortunately a lot of us.
You know, nowadays we're so usedto that quick fix, that quick,
like you know that what can I doto drop 20 pounds, what can I
(22:23):
do to do this or that?
You know, and we just want likethat quick fix.
Or you know, someone guaranteesif you follow this, you're
going to have this, you knowresult or whatever.
So I love the fact that youtailor everything to each person
how they're individually, youknow what they need.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Right, and I'll even say to them, like we're talking
about maybe a goal, yeah, I'llsay, is this something you could
operationalize?
And I hear a lot of times Ican't.
I say, okay, well, that's goodto know.
Let's talk about what you cando.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
You know, let's talk about ways then to help you
preserve, through this, maybe aboundary here and there, but it
doesn't sound like you can goall the way right now.
Right, that's understandable.
I it's so understandable.
I did it for 25 years.
I mean, you know, I heard myhusband was diagnosed with
(23:23):
narcissistic personalitydisorder and I decided to just
unhear the words, right?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
So I understand that Well, because I'm sure he gaslit
you into thinking that personhas no idea what they're talking
about and you.
So you were like, oh yeah, it'snot that bad, he just is angry
sometimes, that's okay.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
You know I right.
Yeah, I had a woman tell methat my husband didn't love me
once and I'm like I blamed her.
Yeah, she shouldn't have saidit the way she did.
But, um, you know, it's easy totalk yourself out of what
you're most deeply scared of.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, that is so true.
And I think that we as women,you know, and men, if men are
listening to this, we're not manhaters here at all Um, but I
think, especially as women, wejust internalize everything.
And you know, I mean, I didn't,I don't think that I was
dealing with a narcissist withmy ex-husband, I really don't.
(24:20):
I just think that our situationjust, you know, it just didn't
work out.
But you know, like it's just.
It's interesting, though, howyou like lose pieces of yourself
slowly, you know, and evengoing through what I, you know,
just going through my divorce,like I realized, holy crap, like
I made myself so small to fitinto this marriage and I've I
(24:41):
lost so many pieces of myselfthat I didn't even know I was
losing.
So, you know, if that happensin a like quote unquote like
normal marriage, you know thatlike just fell apart, I can't
even imagine, you know, becausewe as women, we are like well,
what did we do wrong?
Because that was the firstquestion that I asked myself
(25:01):
what could I have done better tomake him love me, to make him
not fall out of love with me?
What could I have done?
You know, like, how could Ihave been a better wife, because
obviously this must be my fault.
You know when, looking back atit, it was nobody's fault, it
just happened.
We just weren't the right fit,and that's okay.
Like not a big deal.
But you know, I feel like whenyou're in this situation which
is why I love that you askpeople where are you at?
(25:23):
What do you want to focus on?
Because you know it may be toomuch to look at all of it or to
shine a light on like Holy crap,I've let him like roll over me
you know, like my entiremarriage and you know, and then
you get the shame and the guiltand the how did I let myself get
here?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's right People have.
They're at their own speed andbeing aware of things.
Yeah, it's probably in theresomewhere, but you got to do it
at your own speed, um, becauseotherwise it's not going to
stick.
And so you know, if you, somany people don't realize
sometimes that they're usingtoxic behaviors because they've
(26:01):
grown up with them, right, right, so I can identify.
Okay, that's really you do.
Your family sounds like a toxicsystem, but when you do the
work to understand it and do thework to learn how to better
communicate, it can get better.
Right, at least for yourself,yeah.
(26:22):
But when you're dealing withmore narcissistic things, that's
more power and control.
That's really hard.
They're both hard, yeah, butyou can recover for some of
those toxic, abusive behaviorswithin a family or even in a
marriage, if you're both willingto go.
Oh, I didn't realize that wasunhealthy and I want to learn
(26:47):
how to better communicate withyou.
Right, that doesn't happen in anarcissistic relationship,
right.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah, I mean it would .
It sounds like you know itwould be amazing.
Oh wonderful yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I mean it sounds like you know it would be amazing,
oh wonderful, yeah, well, yeah,I mean nobody wants to leave a
marriage, no, where they feelloved and secure and
communicated with.
But that's never the goal.
And also the other thing withnarcissism is that you tend to
get fairly isolated and so it'sharder to leave because you feel
like, oh my gosh, all of ourfriends now are really his
(27:18):
friends.
Yeah, I've kind of given up alot for this marriage.
I don't even see my family muchanymore and they realize how
isolated they've become, andthat adds a level of fear like
no other.
So, yeah, so, yeah.
So on my website, you know, Italk about the narcissistic
(27:40):
spectrum, what it looks like,what it can look like.
I have a toxic 12 quiz.
I have just a lot of goodinformation.
I also have a blog page and Itry to blog about once a month
(28:00):
and that can be very helpfulAgain, just to maybe hear bits
and pieces of yourself in astory.
Yeah, because they're my storiesyeah, but I'll have someone
email me and say I'm reallyconnected to that one, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, I hate that you had to gothrough such a horrible
situation to get where you are,but I love that you took
something so horrible and turnit into something so positive.
That helps not only you healand grow and become the person
(28:39):
that you were meant to be, butyou also are out there spreading
the word normalizing, talkingabout this stuff and, you know,
also helping others to get toyou know, a better place, so
that they can start their ownjourney of becoming who they're
supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's right.
And again, when you, when youdon't let some light in, all
you're going to feel is judgedand shamed and alone.
Yeah and um, and that's why Idid this.
I mean I was able to not havethat.
I mean I'm not saying I neverfelt that way, but, um, I think
(29:16):
the key to me being successfulis by getting so much support,
and I learned how to ask forhelp.
I still do, and I think that wewere all designed for that.
So this is something that Ifind so rewarding.
When someone becomes aware ofsomething, it is just my best
(29:40):
day.
Yeah, because they're owningthat and it's really powerful.
Yeah, it's a piece of them.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I love that yeah.
I love that.
Well, thank you so much again.
I appreciate you taking thetime.
I know you're super busy, butyou took time out to share this.
I love the work that you'redoing.
I will definitely make surethat all of your information is
in the show notes Great, so thatway, if somebody is listening,
it's like holy crap, I need someJamie in my life, Like I'm
(30:09):
calling her.
I'm going to go to her website.
I'm going to do the 12, youknow, the toxic 12.
And I'm going to book a sessionand all of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So we'll have that on there.
Thank you.
We'll talk in a complimentaryway for 20 minutes and see if
that's a fit.
I also just try to reallymodify my rate based on people's
ability to pay.
Yeah, so I can do that and Iwant to do that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Excellent.
Well, thank you so much.
You're welcome, thank.
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