Award-Winning Filmmaker Neil LaBute Tells The Truth and Won’t Apologize

Episode Transcript
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Robyn Cohen (00:03):
Hello and welcome back Thriving Artists.
I'm your host, Robyn Cohen, andtoday's episode is a lightning
strike, I'm sitting down withone of the most original, wildly
creative and fearless voices intheater and film, a longtime
mentor and artistic guidinglight for me Since the
beginning.
Neil LaBute.
For over three decades, Neil hasbeen lighting up Broadway,

(00:25):
Hollywood, and sets and stagesaround the world, and now he's
pulling back the curtain.
He talks about how to rise afterrejection, how to stay
unapologetically you, how to beready before the world is, And
how to create the kind of artthat shakes people awake and
knocks'em alive.
It is honest, it is fire and itis yours.
And if you wanna do the thing,not just hear about it, come

(00:48):
audit class.
Our final two sessions thisround are Tuesday, June 24th at
7:00 PM Pacific and Monday June30th at 12:00 PM Pacific.
it's free for first timers.
Just DM me on Instagram@RobynCohenActingStudio, or
reply to the email in the shownotes.
Alright, sports fans, buckle up,throw your hands in the air and

(01:09):
let's ride.
Here we go with Neil LaBute.
Hello there and welcome back tothe Daily Joyride.
I'm your host Robyn Cohen andtoday we have a guest who I like
to jokingly not jokingly referto as Sir Night Maestro, Neil
LaBute, a one of a kind,groundbreaking playwright,

(01:32):
filmmaker, and screenwriterwhose unflinching approach to
storytelling has made him one ofthe most distinctive and
delectable voices incontemporary drama.
A true master wordsmith, Neil'swork has actually redefined, and
I'd add reinvented, theboundaries of modern theater and
cinema his panoply of plays,films, and TV shows really does

(01:56):
embody a kind of rarefearlessness when it comes to
exploring human relationships,primal propensities, and moral
complexities.
His remarkable ability to Weavea tail or turn it on its head
completely has made him a titanin the arts and crafts realms,
aka show business, with decadesof brilliant work under his belt

(02:20):
that often hits below the belt.
Ah! I can edit all this out.
I can edit these bad jokes out.
I

Neil Labute (02:26):
can get rid of them.

I can get rid of,

This really should just be released on its own.

Neil's art, challenges us to look inward.
And to go a little deeper,sparking vital and often
alarming conversations about themany facets and nuances of our
shared humanity.
In the world of theater, myfavorite zip code, Neil has
electrified audiences fromLondon's West End to New York's
Broadway stages with such playsas Bash, Latter day Plays, a

(02:57):
gripping collection of one actplays exploring themes of sin
and guilt.
The Shape of Things, a romancehorror dissecting art and
manipulation later adapted intoa film.
Fat Pig, a gutting commentary onbody image and societal
pressures.
Reasons to be Pretty,scrutinizes the overwhelming

(03:19):
obsession with physicalappearances.
Reasons to be Happy, How toFight Loneliness.
A ripping and unlikely lovestory about empowered choices to
live or die in the face of fatalillness.
The Mercy Seat, a brutalexploration of morality set
against the backdrop of 9 11.
Some of his lauded film work andtelevision work includes in the

(03:40):
Company of Men, his debutfeature which earned him the
Filmmaker's Trophy at Sundance.
and the Independent Spirit Awardfor Best First Screenplay and is
widely regarded as a modernclassic.
Your Friends and Neighbors, adeliciously twisted exploration
of interpersonal relationships.
Nurse Betty, a dark comedy thatearned acclaim at Cannes.
Lakeview Terrace, a thrilleraddressing race and morality.

(04:03):
Von Helsing, a criticallyacclaimed TV series where LaBute
served as writer and showrunner.
Neil, we are so beyond Nailedit, well, we are, we are so
beyond honored and a littlescared in a good way, to have
you here on the show, your workhas left.
Such an indelible mark on somany creatives and non arty

(04:27):
people.
And I am so grateful to be ableto say that I've actually been
in many of your productions andlucky enough to have performed
in a bunch of your plays andknow legions of actors and
students who are literallyworking on your material.
and or rehearsing scenes fromyour plays and one acts right
now as we speak.
So I'm here on behalf of a lotof folks in the arts and crafts

(04:50):
world and beyond who are justjonesing to know more about you
and your work and how you do itand how in the heck you do so
much of it and make it so greatand make it look kind of easy
and all that jazz.
So Thank you so much for comingonto the show.
I'm so happy you're here andwelcome.
Pleasure.
Obviously welcome to the DailyJoy Ride.

I mean, we, we, we met this way, right?
You were doing, uh, the Shape ofthings.

Yes, yes.
I met you

through, through that production.
Yeah.
So you have the Shape of Things.
West

Coast, west Coast, premiere.
Mm-hmm

was a while.
Beautiful.
Laguna.
Right, Laguna Beach.

Ah! Wasn't that yummy?
Laguna Beach.

Lovely area.
Lovely theater.
The

whole thing.
And then we put that rippingplay on stage and people were
just like, what is this?
And they were galvanized and,and.
Repelled and magnetized, and itreally made a splash in that,
like, little beach community.
Yeah, well,

that's great.
That's the way it should be,right?
I mean, that's the way theatershould get you on your feet or
make you lean forward or head tothe door or something.

Yes, a hundred percent.

Back into your seat, I guess.

Yes, yes, yes.
So that was 20 something yearsago.
I'd love to Neil, wind it back alittle bit, even before that,
you know, when you look at yourbody of work and my students
that are working on your playsand material, everyone's like,
how does, how does he do like,where did he, where does he get

(06:23):
it?
His ideas, how does he have sucha magnificent display of
material, so much of it, likeone of the most prolific writers
that we've ever worked with andpeople are always curious, like,
what are some of the influencesthat he has?
maybe even just growing up,like, did you have people in

(06:44):
your life, whether that was aparental figure or people that
surrounded you, mentors, thatencouraged you tell stories and
to, carve a path in the world offilm and television and theater?
And how did you get, how'd youget the guts to do what you do?
Like, who were some of thepeople Or pieces of art that

(07:06):
molded and shaped.
You on your journey.

here's a crazy thing.
I was born in Detroit.
And I, but I grew up inWashington State.
Very close to the Idaho border.
Not the Seattle, you know, side.
But the other side, near Idaho.
In a lake community.
And the house next door to uswas the home of Sir John
Gielgud.

You're kidding!

Absolutely, I'm kidding.
I just totally made that up.
No.
Why?
Why?
No such luck.
Um, I, I had no connectionreally to theater other than the
few times that I would see it, Iloved it because it was so
different and that's what itremains to me.
It's so unique as an art form,that's why I've kind of never, I

(07:51):
never fall in that trap of, oh,theater's dying, it's gonna, you
know, it's gonna, it's, I don'tthink it'll ever die because
it's, it's so unique.
It's an experience that peoplego to live, connect with live
actors and I can't imagine thatever blowing out, that, you
know, that people don't want tohave this, such a unique thing
happen.
And so, the few times, whetherat church or a community
theater, or running off to see acollege production at my

(08:15):
brother's school, because hewent to school near where we
grew up, and me seeing these,you know, few things always kind
of electrified me.
And I was like, what is, what isthis thing?
That is so not part of my life.
And I watched a lot oftelevision.
went to the movies quite often.
Loved all those.
My mother was a big movie lover,also a big reader.
You know, there's, I mean, ifyou want Roots, roots with a,

(08:35):
was the public library, youknow, she took us to the public
library a lot, and we just wouldcome out with stacks of books
and Wow.
And read, read, read.
Yeah.
And so a reader grows into, youknow, wow, what a cool
occupation.
I want.
I love to do that myself.
I like to write, you know, andso, mm-hmm I would try and write
little things and make littlecovers for books and, you know,
that was kind of the birth of,of all that.

(08:56):
I, took a drama class in schooland I was far less interested in
performing and could tell that Iwas not as good a performer as
other people.
But I also was very drawn to,I'm gonna write my own material.
And see if I can get it past theteacher to see if they think
it's like someone who's awriter, you know, that make it

(09:18):
sound like I'm going to give ita name and I'm going to give it
an author and basically lie.
We're the roots of my career asa liar.
Um, I mean, that's what we aretechnically, right?
We, we, we make huge lies up forpeople

and

seem as if it is real.
You know, that is, that's thejob.
And people want to be takenaway, just as I did.
I want to jump into somebodyelse's life, another story, and
be taken away.
For two hours, half an hour,whatever it is, take me to
another place.
And, and tell me a good story.
And that's what I ended up doingas a job.
So I was, you know, very earlyon, drawn to that, that

(09:53):
lifestyle, as a writer, and Ijust continued through college
and then into, you know, therewas a, there's a moment there I,
I, I can almost kind of remembergoing, as a student to London
and seeing plays and things.
And you're kind of.
overwhelmed by, oh my gosh,there's Vanessa Redgrave and
there's so and so all sitting inseats so far away from the stage

(10:14):
that I probably couldn't tellthe difference between Vanessa
Redgrave

and John Gielgud,

Brian and John Gielgud.
I know they're both out there.
I'm not sure which is which, andyou know, then there's a moment
where you kind of, you know,you're, you're doing this, thing
and you, whether you're in itor, or you're watching it and
you think I can do that.
You know what?
They're just people that's, youknow, they were there.
John Gielgud is this thing untilhe becomes just John Gielgud,

(10:40):
this guy who, you know, livesnext to me, and, and, you know,
and does this for a living.
And so there was a moment Icould remember of I could do
this.
And then I, I did it and youknow, you just have to be strong
and have the material and haveto weather the storm of
criticism that could come yourway.
It's not for the faint of heart,you know,

now

everybody gets critiqued.
You know, my plumber getscritiqued, the, the store that I
go to gets critiqued.
Reviewed.
You submit a review.
Right.
But it only used to be us.
Right.
We were the one with, it's like,Oh yeah, you could end up a
movie star.
But you're just going to getslammed publicly all the time
for everything you do.

Decimated.

It used to be just, we owned that.
And now, you know, it's like,yeah, lousy, I don't like
staying at, you know, the RedRoof Inn, or I didn't like
eating at Red Lobster or,

you

know, um, it's that.
So everybody gets a little tasteof it now, but we used to be our
world of like, not only do I dothis thing for no money, you
know.
But somebody gets, we get

berated and someone

abuses me, wake up in the morning, publicly wake,
say, I can't wait to like slamyou into the ground for what
you've Oh, you took a whole yearto write this.
Oh, well good.
In a matter of minutes I will,you know, cut your heart out.
Oh God.
Does somebody wake up wanting tobe that when they're a kid?
I don't know.

Uh, not that I've had on the podcast.
Not yet.

I just wanna, I just wanna hurt people where,
you know, right.
Where their heart is their,their art.
That's, that's, and get paid.
And get paid to do it.
Get paid.
Paid, yeah.
And get free tickets and Yeah.
You gimme free tickets and I'llsay, your show stinks.
That's, that's the job I'mlooking

for.
We'll, I'll, I'll destroy you.

Yeah.
Um, so that was not the job Iwanted.
I was still like, I'd rather dothe other job.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.

Yeah.

As painful as that might end up.
At times I would rather take achance and put that my own
stories out there and see ifpeople are, are gravitating
toward them or not.
So where do they come from?
I don't know.
You know, I, I, I'm not someoneI know where they don't come
from.
I haven't adapted that muchstuff.
I've done a few things, adapteda few plays or novels or, both
film and TV or rather, um,theater.

(12:51):
Um, but mostly it's beenoriginal stuff.
And, you never know where it'sgoing to come from, you know?
Um, I've done a lot ofrelationship stuff, so, so part
of it is a fear of beingrepetitive or doing stuff that
other people have done.
You're like, you know, if I'mgoing to write about that stuff,
it better be new, it better beoriginal.
and so far I've done a fair, afair job of that.
But it's also, I think, wantingto tell a good story, feeling

(13:13):
that contract that you make withpeople.
They give you their time, theirmoney.
And you, therefore, they'reasking you to do that thing that
I wanted to be taken away.
So I have to come back with outof all the things you could have
picked.
You came here tonight.
So this better be good.
Um, so that's how I got to gointo it every time.

(13:33):
It's gonna be, you know, itbetter be, it better be just on
a level of goodness.
Um, I don't pull from, from lifevery often.
It's not like, you know, I'vewritten about my parents, you
know, Marriage or or mygrandparents when they met or
you know, oh, there was a greatstory But there's a couple
things that have popped up thatI'm like, oh, that's too too

(13:55):
rich.
That's too good I'm gonna crackat that.
But mostly it's just I'm gonnatell you a story and And so I
don't fret about it too much.
I don't you know, I don'toverthink it.
I I'm writing all the timepeople say do you write all the
time?
Like yeah, not on paper.

Yeah,

but I can't turn it off,

you know,

middle of the night first thing in the morning.
I'm like, oh, here's a good ideaor, you know, a bad idea or
sometimes you don't know whichit is until you're 70 pages in
and you look at the wall and go,wow, this is a bad idea.
Nothing's happening.
It's kind of really boring.
Even for me, it's boring.
And so, but I would rather dothat

than

overthink it, you know, and I'm not a writer who
like puts bullet points down ona piece of paper and says, and
this happens and this happensand this happens and this
happens, and then it's just amatter of you writing all that
stuff up.

Yeah,

I kind of go off on the journey without knowing
exactly what's gonna happen.
Sometimes I know the ending,sometimes I know the title,
sometimes I don't, you know.
But it's like, sometimes I don'teven know if it's play or a
movie like people are talking,and so I'm gonna write that
down.
and so the, the best of that hasbeen surprising, you know, and I
think the best of that had alsotherefore been surprising to the

(15:13):
viewer that it's like, oh, Ihave no idea where this is
going.
I'm an hour in.
And have no idea where this isgoing to go.
Other viewers go, I'm an hour inand I could care less.
But, you know, that's, that'salways going to be the thing.
You're never going to makeeverybody happy.
You know, E.
T.
doesn't make everybody happy.
Makes a lot of people happy.
A

lot of people, you're right.

But it doesn't make everybody happy.

True.

Um, so it's, you just can't go about it that way.
You know, otherwise you'llfreeze in the headlights and you
just will never write anything,you know.
Um.

It's so salient and, to dig a little deeper on
that.
you said two things about that.
Oh, and just just to mention Iam holding back like when you're
talking I'm wanting to like, uh,and like make noises because I'm
so into it.
No, I'm like, I'm It's not that.
Take a breath.
Take a breath.
It's that because we're, becausewe're on Zoom, I know when we

(16:05):
overlap, I, it cuts the otherperson out.
So I'm trying to hold my sounds,my noises back that I make when
I'm excited about, you know,what you're saying.
So just so you know, if I feel,if it seems like I'm miming, I'm
just trying to not cut you offwith my expressions.
This is me holding back.

I'll leave you some sound space in there if you want
to, like, just You don't have

to! You don't have to! Okay, fair enough.
But, uh, you said two thingsabout your process.
you said, first, I don'toverthink it.
I don't overthink it and, Idon't put, a pressure on it
about what other people aregoing to think.
And for so many people that Iknow and love and work with and
students and for myself, So muchof the chokehold is what are

(16:53):
they going to think of me?
Yeah.
Like what are they going tothink of me, the artist, if I go
out there and, and hearing youtalk about that, I'm sort of
seeing it as like one of yoursuperpowers because What you put
out there is so igniting topeople in such a massive

(17:13):
spectrum of ways.
it is so provocative, and it'sreally so triggering.
Which I also think is yoursuperpower, because I think
we're meant to trigger people.
I think we're supposed to betriggering people.
But The majority of people outthere a lot of whom do have a
gift and a passion and a purposefor doing this and want to

(17:36):
really create somethingmeaningful, they are paralyzed.
They are stopped completely.
with making any forward motion,because, oh my god, it circles
back to, like, literally, like,people aren't gonna like me
anymore.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, literally.

Or what will people think of me?
Or will this be the end of mycareer?
Because I, you know, anaudience, weirdly, always
thinks, not thinks the worst ofyou, but thinks whatever the
worst thing you could think of.
Must be then you,

you, you

know.
Yeah.
No one ever mistakes me for likethe, the nice person in the
play.
They're always like, oh, youmust be the jerk, because you
can think of all those jerkythings.

They assume too much.
They're assume too much.
Yeah.

They assume that, that you know, it's not
biography, it's notautobiography.
It's just you.
You create a set of charactersand you have to be true to them.
More true to them than theaudience.
I could care less.
Not less.
How did

you get to that though?
Because that's where people,what would you tell your
students, and I know you'vetaught and teach, you know,
you've taught students increative writing.
It's like what do you tell astudent that really they can't
go forward because this, I, thisneed to please this disease to
please and get the approval ofthat critic.

(18:54):
Do you know what I mean?
Like, most of us are stoppedbecause we're worried that one
person, like the New York Times,is going to slam us.
And that becomes, like, thedeath of the living out of our
fully expressed lives.
We're really just, when youdrill it down, I think people
are worried about, like, ahandful of people not liking
their stuff.
And that stops them fromreaching the legions, the

(19:17):
millions, the billions of peoplethat they could reach.
How do you tell your studentsand people around you?
What can you give them to helpthem get over the wall in terms
of you, you seem to have a wayto shield yourself having put
such outrageous, audacious,like, gutsy, daring work out
there, you seem to not besusceptible to this 99 percent

(19:40):
of the people I've ever 99certain decades of my life.
It's like, I'm still trying tolook good for other people and
make sure that the codependency,are they okay?
Is this pleasing to you?
Do you approve of this?
what would you tell them to sortof get past that over that
through that?
As someone who's put everythingout there.

(20:01):
Better

to be, better to be good than be liked.
You know, um,

You

know, respected than liked.
Or whatever it is.
It's like, I'm not writing thesethings so that they, they like
me.
Or, you know, love thosecharacters.
I want them just to beinteresting.
It's the basic tenant of, youknow, it's like what happens
next?
If you get an audience to askthat question, that's that's
what your job was.
That they want to know.
What happens to these peoplebecause they're interesting

(20:26):
enough not because they're niceenough or any of those things
Um, it's tough love.
I guess you have to withstudents It's like this is this
is the game and you're eithergonna do play the game or not
And I can't make it easier foryou.
The good news is The same as thebad news that there is no way up
the mountain that you can followand, and, and be sure of having

(20:47):
a career, you know, in the sameway that as a lawyer, you can
kind of go, well, I have to do,I have to go to school and then
I have to go to law school andthen I have to pass the bar.
If I do those things, I willessentially be a lawyer and I
could be a good one or a badone,

a

lot of money or some money or whatever, but you
will get to the chance to dothat thing that you wanted to
do.
One

of

the best people I ever ran into.
Yeah.
You know, it's like I can't,it's not a sure thing.
It's not, you know,

not

even like I want to be a movie star.
I just want to act.

Yeah.

And I am not getting the opportunity to do
that.
And so I have to find work.
I have to pay the bills.
I have to, you know, and if youlet that uncertainty in, then
the devil is there.
You know, you, uh, more timesthan not, I will tell students
what you have to do, um, I thinkis erase the idea of if.

(21:40):
You know, it's if you, if youlet the word if creep in that,
you know, um, if it happens tome, if I, you know, it's like,
no, it's when it happens, youhave to know that it's going to
happen and be ready when ithappens that you have to have
work.
You can't go to Starbucks andpretend to write a screenplay.
If you are crazy enough to wantto go to Starbucks to write a
screenplay, then you better sitdown and write a screenplay.

You

don't just drink, you know,

lattes,

because you have to have lattes and a screenplay.

Yeah.

Because when someone, you know, calls on you,
they're not probably asking fora latte.
They're like, Oh, you have ascript?
I have a latte.

Yeah.
Unless you're the barista, anactor working at Starbucks.
I wasn't looking for a latte.

I was looking for a script.

Yeah.
You know,

so when, when opportunity knocked for me, I
had more than enough.
To say, yes, I do.
Here you go.
Have a look.
See what you think.

Um,

and uh, and after that first movie came out and
hit and I was like not torturedover what's, and here's the next
one.
I had that next script in myhand.
So I think you just have to beprepared all the time.
It's a very, very quick, silver,funny, horrifying business and
that's just the business.
And you just have to besurrounded by people that, you

(22:54):
know, you can trust and who tellyou the truth about what you do.
And, and, um, but be ready whenyou get that horrible spotlight
turned on you.

Yeah.

Horrible, but warm and amazing.
And you, you know, you guys, Ijust think most actors just
don't get a chance to run likethoroughbreds.
Like they want to, you know, youhave a great feeling on set for
two days and then you're like,when's the next time I'll get to
do that?
I don't know.
It's like they.
That's one of the great thingsabout when you people coming up
through soap operas used to belike people make fun of soap

(23:26):
operas, but you know what you'reacting every day.

Yeah,

it's getting better.
The more you do anything.
These are as when you say artsand crafts.
It's very true.
You know, it's a very workoriented blue colliery kind of
like roll up your sleeves.
And that's the magic for me.
Hey, guess what?
Magic.
It's just sitting down andwriting.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.
Um,

and you have to do that, and so you have to find
ways to act, whether it'sproducing your own stuff or, you
know, I've done all thosethings.
I'm still doing those things.
Yeah.
Years later I'm still going,alright, I've sat here too long,
I'm gonna find some money on myown and I'm gonna make a movie
like I did the first time.

Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.

Just finished doing that.
Just, just literally like a weekago or so.

Yeah,

I'm tired of this.
I'm you know, it's like thebusiness is slow right now.
So I'm gonna just make my own.
And

you're in the midst of that right now.
This is something that is from

30 years later, things haven't changed much, you
know, right,

right.

You get this opportunity or you get this
opportunity or you get both or,or none.
If you know you if you don'tmake them happen.
Yeah.

What she said is so key about, you know, as an
actor, we're wild horses,stallions ready to go.
Then you have a couple days onset and then it's over.
That's where I think the theaterstage plays working on material
from scenes of plays even.
That's the antidote.
It's literally the antidote.
Because you can do that trulyaround a campfire.

All those things.
Yeah, get together, do readingswith your friends.

That's it.
And

it's not about making money off of that.
And no one gets to say,

no one else gets to say whether you get to be an
actor that day.
You're like, no, I'm going tosit down and read Fat Pig and
The Shape of Things.
And we're going to read all ofNeil's plays and come over.
We're going to have lattes andwe're going to read these plays.
And, you know, we're going to beactors today.
And then you, it's in your, uh,You do have to kind of

make your own fun.
A lot of the time.

I think so.
I think so.
Especially as an

actor because you're interpretive.
You're waiting for something tocome to you and that's why you
see so many actors eventuallyturning toward, um, producing or
directing or writing or it'slike, I've got to generate some
of this myself.

I can't

sit here forever and wait.

I'm curious.
Um, I do.
I would love to hear a spoileralert about what this project is
that is at hand that you saidyou've just decided to dive into
recently.
but, uh, before that, I'mcurious if you sort of zoom out
into the, the bigger picture interms of your storytelling and
in terms of an actor'sparticipation in that story.

(25:54):
So I'm, I'm going to Hungary inthe next few days to shoot a
television show.
It's a CBS show.
It's a procedural called FBIinternational and I guess I'm
not, I won't give it, I'm not,we won't give anything away
about what I'm doing on it, but,

don't, but keep all that to

say, I'm playing a,

I think I have nefarious Are you gonna, are you
going to Budapest?

Budapest, yeah.

I, I think I have a playbook running over there.

What I just,

I, I opened one, um, what

play?
Which one?

City?
City Garage this past yearcalled if I needed Someone, and
I think it's already playing inHungary.
I think it's in Budapest rightnow.
So do you know a

guy that knows a guy that could get me a ticket
to the show?

I think just walk up to the block office and say,
here, here's some.

That's amazing.
I brought you some

goulash and let me in.

Put me in coach.
That's incredible.
Okay.
Okay.
So something to look forward to.
Well,

and

the piece that I sort of was a little worried
about, which I'm interested todiscuss with you is that the
character I'm playing, is ill,misguided, ill spirited, um, a
bad actor in the world, not interms of her acting technique,
but in the world, her archetype,and, nefarious, it, it doesn't

(27:15):
go well for her.
This character I'm playing.

Well, now I'm interested.
Right.

You're gonna have to tune in.

You're, you're, you're talking my side of the
street.

Right.
Okay.
So on the flip side, on stage,I've been working on Heidi
Schreck's play, What theConstitution Means to Me, which
is a story, a very personalstory about ending domestic
violence in her family and howthe constitution related to and
helped or hurt her familymembers.
And, it's about human rights,LGBTQ rights, women's rights,

(27:46):
civil rights.
It's, something that you can,you just get your shoulder
behind as an actor.
And like, ah, yes, this is why Ideveloped a voice so that when
it it comes time, I havesomething to say that I want to
talk about and I know how to dothat.
And, um,

meaty part, which is fine.

Yeah.
Which is really fun.

You're not nurse number seven coming in to say,
yes, doctor.
We'll see you now.
I did that

part.
Hey, how did you know my lines?
Those were my lines exactly.
I know

your work.
You know my work.
Everybody does that.
But it's like when you can geton stage and get something like
that where you really just, youknow, have something to say and
it's fun to say.
And

dig in fully and completely.
You wrote

a fun play there for yourself and for others
obviously.
Yes, yes, yes.
I worked with her actually onum, Billions.

That's right,

that I directed and I mean, lovely, lovely person,
but yeah, really good writer.
And I'm very happy to see thatthat show do as well.
You

directed her episode of

Billions, that is so

cool.
Of course, all the best people,they're just like bees.
It's like you're honey to thebees, all the, you're the honey.
And then you just attract allthe other bees.
And, uh, that's wonderful thatyou got to, yeah.
I mean, you're consistentlycollaborating with the top
people in the world.
When you're a

writer.

Directly gets

you out of the house, you know, it forces you
to go interact with people.
I'm 100 percent happy sittinghere in this quiet, gray room,
you know, and doing my thing andwatching other people's movies.
And so you do have

to

force yourself to interact and get out there and
do the stuff.
Yes, and

collaborate.
Yes, that's great.
As I'm, as I'm comparing sort ofthe difference in the role I'm
going to be playing, this evilminded, delirious woman in some
ways, I was thinking to myself,gosh, like, is that what I
wanna, is that what I wanna talkabout?
Is that the kind of thing that Iwant to?

(29:39):
And so, in order to, as I'mworking on it, sort of get my
shoulder behind it, I'm havingto zoom out and say, what is the
bigger picture of this storythat, I get to play a role that
serves, sending a message thatactually is toward the good,
that actually is toward healingthese particular societal wounds

(30:00):
that are addressed in this storyand in this episode, and that
Whether I'm playing this woman,Bridget, who I'm going to be
playing or Iago or pick avillain, any villain, like I was
interested, I was just startingto sort of pursue, like, what do
we have to do as actors toreally put ourselves all in when
we don't align with the messagethat we're sharing.

(30:21):
People say,

you know, I have to find, I have to find something I
like about this person orwhatever.
I'm not always sure that that'strue.
You know, I think you can go inand ask somebody that's, that's
horrible and walk away and wipeyour hands and go home and say,
that was a job.
Well done.

Yeah.
Yeah, I, I, I

did what, what the doctor ordered for that, you
know, I, yes.
Something I, I constantly sayto, to actors, whether they're
in my stuff or what is like,take no prisoners, you know?

Yeah, yeah.
If you're

gonna do it, go all in.
You can't be like, I'm gonnasort of like wink at you to let
you know, Hey, I really don'tlike, yeah.
I'm really a nice

person.

Like, yeah, we know, you know, most people
don't like the Nazis, and, andthe ones who do, you know, like
the Nazis, but whatcha gonna dowith that?
Um, I, I can play that withouthaving to let the audience.
The audience will probably justassume that anyway and go, yeah,
but she was really incrediblewhile playing a Nazi or whoever
she's playing.

Um,

I think you, if you embrace that, you say, I'm going
to do this part, then you got todo that part.
You know, I've had people wholike started to back off, like
suddenly going, Oh, they'regonna, they're not going to like
me.
I'm like, that's not the job.
You know, my job is tell thestory.

Yeah.

And then they'll, they'll probably stick around
and watch your autograph laterand all that.
And you'll see, you're notreally that person.

Yeah.

Elemental.
Cause they're not seven yearsold.
You know, they're a human beingand an adult and they get what
we're doing.

Um,

and, and so you, you, but you've got to go out
there and not apologize.
You can't.
Yes.
You can't, you can't really dothat.
It's not your job.
And not, I don't want you toapologize for me, for what I
wrote.
I'll do that if I want to, andyou know I'm not going to
apologize.

You exemplify that.
You literally are the goldstandard on that.

You have to really do it.
Because

there's a bigger mission, which is when you make
anything and you writecharacters that a lot of people
are appalled by, they'rewonderfully appalled by.
And the stories land, and theygut people, they brutalize
people in the most amazing ways.

(32:26):
And it's all inside of, yeah,like you said, you're
unapologetic, you're going towrite these characters and
continue to, because what isyour overarching mission when
you set out, what is yourmission on that?
I

think, in particular, the theater.
Is the place where we can dothat.

Yes.
You

know, people have been talking lately in the last
few years about theater being asafe space.
And it gets a little cushy aftera while.
And I'm like, I don't know ifthat's what we meant by that.
For me it's not, it's a safespace to do anything.

Yeah.
To

say anything.
To go anywhere.

Yeah.
And

you know, when the lights come back on, we're all
here.
We actually didn't go on theride.

Yeah.
It didn't

actually happen to us.

Yeah.

We're still here.
Everything's okay.
But we were able to talk aboutthose things.

Yeah.

And this is the place that we should do that.

Are you writing those characters?
I'm still trying to, yeah.
you writing those charactersthat people will say, are you
presenting these humans that dothese?
Magnificently horrible things sothat people will say, Oh, that's
the mirror is that to show that

I like to, I like a person who's just complicated,
you know,

complicated.
All those gray areas, all thatstuff.
I don't want,

you know, I write actually as, as much as people
will say this, it's easy towrite a headline and you know,
you're this or you're that, orfirst movie I did suddenly, you
know, you're the biggestmisogynist in the world.
And other people are looking atthe movie going, Hmm.
I don't get that, but

yeah,

it's stuck with a label, right?
But it's like, I've written veryfew like sociopaths or
psychopaths, you know, a coupleof them and they were, they were
good ones, but mostly they'rejust people who fuck up all the
time.
Yes.
Like, like, Everybody I know,you know, you just make a lot of
mistakes.
You have to make those mistakesinteresting because you're not
making a documentary and it'snot like just garden variety

(34:11):
mistakes.
You know, you're gonna tell thebiggest mistake this person ever
made in their life.
That's right.
And because that's what peopleare paying for.
It's like,

yeah,

my life is, you know, already complicated.
So what are you gonna tell me?
That's even more exciting thanthat.
You're going to take me to adifferent place.

So

it's a little bit higher.
Um, not, not a balance beam, butyou know, what's when you're,
you're setting the bar higherbecause of the, the need to make
people go on a journey that's,that's outside of their usual
experience.
At least that's what I do.
I don't want to go see, youknow, a movie that's, that's my
life.
I want to go see.
Another life in England or inIran or wherever it is.

Yeah,

I go.
Wow.
That's kind of breathtaking in awhole new way

Yeah, cuz what is the don't don't

wait for me?
Don't pat me on the shoulderDon't don't say Oh Neil can't
take you know can take a lot,you know, I mean, so

yeah

But I think that people have wanted to commandeer
Theaters and make it all niceand cushy and everybody's gonna
be okay We're not gonna hurtanybody's feelings the idea that
no one's feelings can be heardanymore Is outrageous to me.
It's like when did when did thathappen?
I mean, it's it's not possibleas adults for us to to to go
through a day And you know, Idon't have to offend somebody

(35:25):
every day.
I'm not saying that i'm justsaying I'm, not going to be
offended by every little thingi'm gonna take you have
different opinions than I We'reso America's a funny place.
And we don't have a we don'thave a there's a statement.
America's a funny

word.
Yeah, there's a

coffee cup logo.
Um, you know, we're so and I cansee it in my my my child even
this, this embedded sense ofWhat's first?
What's best?
Who wins?
What's the number one film atthe box office?
You know, in the race, it's allabout this kind of winning and

(36:03):
coming in first.
And, you know, that's that's sonot kind of important to me.
This whole idea of like, let'ssee, we could we could tell
everybody's story.
We can do whatever.
but we don't have to like this.
We can only put on the best ofthis or we can never win.
You know, hurt anybody'sfeelings or, you know, I, I
think that the spectrum is asbroad as wherever the mind can

(36:25):
go.
Yes.
I just think we have to tell it.
Well,

yes.
Tell any

story as long as you tell it.
Well, and, and I feel like I'm,I'm in a, in an okay place there
that I can defend anything Iwrite as long as I've done it
well.
Um, and not just trying to, youknow, make a buck off it or, or,
you know, jump on a bandwagon orthat kind of thing.
but I can't, I can't sit aroundthinking, oh my God, is this
gonna.
For somebody's feelings.

(36:49):
Um, can I say that word anymore?
Or, you know, and every so oftensomebody say, did you put that?
Well, I'm like, yeah, becausethis character would say that.
And it's like, but this, youknow, somebody's gonna be like,
I'm like, What are you gonna do?
I, I, we're telling storiesabout real people, you know, at
least real in quotes that it'shappening on the earth now in

(37:09):
the world we live in and, andpeople, you know, get offended
and bounce back and, you know,their feelings aren't crushed
beyond belief and they can neverleave their house again because
you, you said a slur, you know,slang or use this word rather
than that word or, um, calledthem the wrong, you know, uh,
um, It's just, yeah, it just,for me, I can't, I can't operate

(37:33):
that way, which to some peoplewould say, then you should
probably not operate.
that's just a difference ofopinion.
I disagree and it's okay forpeople to disagree.
Even that is important.

We can

disagree.
You know, it's so funny whensomebody sees a movie like today
and it's like, not just if youdon't like it, then there's
something wrong with you, butI'm going to try and change your
opinion to make you like it.
I'm like, why can't you justlike it?
And I don't like it.
Well, it doesn't make yousmarter or better or me, you
know, whatever.
I just, that's just a differenceof opinion.

(38:05):
It's just subjective.
All this stuff is back to theshape of things or it is
subjective.
You know what I mean?
It's like, why must we all lovethis or not like that?
Or it's just like what you like.
And, and, and know what you likeand, and, and be open to other
experiences.
And that's why I see so manymovies from other countries,
cause I'm taken away and, andseeing things from so many

(38:25):
different perspectives and fromactors that I don't know is
immersive.
And yet I don't look at it andgo, I can't watch a movie from
Iraq or from Iran because theydon't respect women or do this.
Or I'm like, this is part oftheir, their lifestyle and what
they're doing.
And, and that's horrific to me,but I think the director maybe
wanted me to see it that way.
That it was horrific, you know,now we had to leave his country

(38:48):
and it can't be there because hewrote that and filmed that
story.
Um, that was pretty brave.
So I'm not going to judge himbased on, you know, the mores of
the country.
I'm just going to sit back likea movie like today, like this,
that's out and it's really good.
"The Seed Of The Sacred Fig" youknow, this movie, this Iranian
director made and then had toleave the country and I think

(39:08):
it's up now for an oscar andthat sort of thing but it's you
know, it's it tells a reallysobering story about you know,
life there for women in in iranand and uh families and Um,
gosh, I wouldn't want to havenot seen that because oh, I
don't you know I don't believein what they're doing.
It's like I believe in goodstorytelling You know, and

(39:29):
that's, that's about as far as Ican get these days.
So that's my, I guess that's mypolitical belief system is,

yeah,

tell me good stuff.
Show me good stuff.
And

yeah, show me good stuff and let me give you
something good.
That's the value exchange.
Minor.

You know, we can still

talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.

But so it's, but it's, it's, it's a, it is a bit
of a minefield out there today.
You know, people are walkingaway from friendships or from,
you know, from people they workwith because of one

thing.
You name it.
Yeah.
One

thing that was uttered.
Wouldn't have been very solid ifthat's the case.
You know, one thing can bringdown an entire, you know,
relationship or workrelationship.
Yes, or

one word like "regular", as in your play.
Ah, yes.
"Reasons To Be Pretty" that toredown, what was the Not

a great word to call somebody though.
Don't ever, I've

never, listen, I, excommunicated it from my
vocabulary after I read thatplay.
Not necessarily what a

woman wants to be called.

I had a question that had come in about what
you're sharing about, two thingsabout that.
Can you write today, Neil, couldyou write today the plays that
you wrote in the early 2000s?
Could you write The Shape ofThings today?
Would you?

Could I get them produced?
That's a whole different thing.

That's a whole different thing.
Interesting, interesting.
Two

very different worlds.
Yes, yes.
Absolutely sit down and writeand, and I think still am in
some cases and other cases not,you know, again, I'm, I'm never
trying to top myself like, okay,now what's the worst thing I
could say, or, you know what Imean?
It's like, that's a game withlittle return.
The dividends are small there,but I should be able to write
whatever I want to write,whatever I can, whatever can

(41:10):
come to mind and I can tell agood story with.

Can the culture handle it?
There are

many of those.
You could go through the, the,the pile of, of little booklets
there that, that I've writtenand, and go, yeah, that'd be a
hard one to get done today.
Ooh, that's going to be tough.
That's going to be, and for somany different reasons.

For so many.
Yes.

so it's, But every, I guess every writer faces that,
you know, do you, do you remain,powerful in what you write?
Or do you remain, in fashion?
Do you remain saying somethingworth saying that's, that's
every time out, you have to facethat it's just worth doing the
old Goethe for all my Germanfriends, Goethe.

(41:48):
Um, you know, is it, you know,is, is this worth doing in the,
maybe not enough people ask thatwithout putting things out
there, you know, they, whetherit's good or good or worth doing
anyway, but that's again, just ajudgment call, right?

Yeah.
Yeah.

Old good.
And I might not agree.
You know, what are you going todo?
does he, does he, do we alwaysdefer to him or to somebody else
or, You know, there's alwaysgoing to be, as I said before,
from E.
T.
on down to, to Faust.
oh, I love it, I don't love it,and, or so many things in
between.
Yeah,

could be

crippling for you, or it can just be, then I will,
I will continue to work and try.
Yes.
Make things that are, that areeven more, not more, you know,
difficult, but, uh, things that,that, you know, I will try, I
will try again to reach peopleand I'll try again, um,

you know,

cause you do have to, you're not writing in a
closet, you're not writing forno one, you're putting it on the
shelf.
Usually it's, it's about, youwant, you want some audience
somewhere.
however big or, or wide thataudience might be.
I think the idea is, you know,especially with a play, nice one
is a piece of literature and youcan sit down and read it and
enjoy it, but it doesn't reallycome to life, you know, until I

(43:01):
stopped.
Playing all the parts and youknow, you could take over and I
go.
Oh, yeah, that's what I wasThat's what I was trying to do
is get those interpretiveartists who go now I can take
this black You know this or thisblueprint and and turn it into
something, you know, even evenmore than it was That's the joy
of working with actors is thatyou go?
Yes, that's that's you know Youhave just blown air into that

(43:24):
that balloon that I wrote And,and now they're, they're, you
know, moving around in full 3d,a blast to watch that happen,
you know, and to try and to betrusted and collaborate, you
know, so many people don't, youknow, want to collaborate
weirdly in this collaborative.
World of ours that it's like Ihire you so that you can do it

(43:44):
as in the way that I would do itif I was brave enough to go on
stage, well, it's like, well,then you should go on stage.
If you're not going to let mejust do it, you know, not that
you can't have ideas and Ican't, but we got to do it
together.
You can't, I'm just not going tojust follow the directions you
give me.
And Oh, don't forget to inflecton that.
Where it's just, you know, thenthat's directors often, you

(44:04):
know, just cast better lookingversions of themselves.
Yeah.
And then say, Oh, but you shoulddo it this way.
And you're like, but why, why isit only that way?
You know, and then, Oh my God,they're a little difficult to
work with.
They ask questions, you know,it's like how many, how many
careers have been smeared for anactor who just had questions?

Well,

you

stupid

people don't, don't like questions.
Good, smart ones or not.
They, they, you know, they're,they're operating in fear that
people will see through the factthat they don't know what
they're doing.
And so they ask those questionsand just say, no, just do it
this way.

It's better

for the camera.

My God,

that camera, that camera,

the time

we spend coddling that camera and making those
lights look just right.
And then we say to you, go doyour job in five minutes because
we have to go to lunch.
Be perfect.
You're like, Oh, I've been in mytrailer for five hours.
Well, okay.
Let me just think for a second.

The engine's going.
Okay.
Okay.
You have one,

one bad take and they're like,

yeah.

Right.
Wow.
Thank you.
You know, I mean, it's just,you, talk about a job.
That's a, that's a job that, youknow, I, I know both I'm not
great at and, and, and, andlove.
Love you guys because I couldn'tdo it to save my life.

You've given us so much life.
I mean, the amount of

creative fire.
My pleasure.
But you know what I mean isthat, particularly in movies and
TV, you know, as you head off toHungary, I'll just scare you a
little more.
But you already, I'm not scaringyou because you know this.
You know, it's like the stage isjust so different.

We just

build all together from the beginning, and then we
create this thing at the endthat has risen in a normal
pattern.
And movies were like, Hey,Robyn, so glad you're here.
Can you run down and, uh, and dothe bed scene now?
Oh, wait, actually, can you doit after lunch?
Cause we got to go to lunch andyou're like, Oh, go.
Okay.
Oh, can you try it right nowquickly for us?
So we can just get a close up.
Um, it's, it's just, it's allhappened.

Everything that you just said has happened.
It's all based on economics,

all on how fast and cheap can we do this thing?

Yeah.
Yeah.

Not anything about, you know, while we, while we
love the actors and that's whothe audience connects with, we
will treat them in the most.
illogical way.

Yeah.

For them to do their work.

Yeah.

It's constantly a puzzle and mystery to me.
I'm like,

yeah.

So this little movie I went off and did on my
own, it was like, Hey, we canshoot this in sequence, you
know?
And the actor's like, wait, whatdo you mean?
You mean like, like I couldemotionally build this in a
normal way?
Yeah.
It almost didn't even make,didn't make sense.
They're like, what

is this new art form?
I can't do,

I can't do things like that.
I can't do it the right way.

That makes too much sense.

Yeah.
You've taught me to do itcompletely illogically.

Wow.

So, God bless when you get a chance to do that, but
you know, God bless the theaterthat allows us to go do it in
that form as well.

Speaking of God,

yes,

um,

that old creepster,

no,

trickster, trickster,

creepster.

I mean, speaking out of school, I don't know,

he

might be,

he

or she.
Might be, for all I know.
Um, not They, they, them, havegot to have a sense of humor,
because, I mean, otherwise thismakes no sense.
You know, if you look up and go,don't ask me, I don't know.
I just created it.

Right.

They made a mess out of it.

Yeah,

yeah.

What about

what

about that?
So, um, that's staying in,that's all staying in.
But, um, so I know you, when youwere at a university and you
were part of the Mormon churchand.
and are now no longer,participating with the Church of
Latter day Saints.
Participating.
Participating.

(47:59):
Um, okay.
As if it was a Holy Day party.
I'm no longer participating.
No longer participating.
I'm wondering, and, I mean, thisisn't like, This isn't a woo woo
show, like it's not, I am, I amactually pretty woo, I'm a
little woo, um, but I'm curious,like, how and where spirituality
or religiosity finds its wayinto your, your work, your

(48:23):
world, your art.

It often seems to find

its way into stuff that

I've written.
Yeah, I mean those, I love thosebig things like you mentioned
"Bash" like sin.

Yeah,

well those things don't have to have just a.
You know, Old Testament value tothem.
They are just things that arekind of instilled in our lives
now.
And we, we weigh them and, youknow, is goodness or badness or,
how we treat people that doesn'thave to ultimately have a
religious, notion behind it aswell.
Yeah.
I just think that, those thingsare, are interesting.

(48:55):
I grew up in a, as a kid, I grewup in a church that was a, you
know, a non denominationalchurch.
They just, just read from theBible, had Sunday school, come
one, come all.
You can be from any denominationthat you were or, or thought
about or have been before.
And come to our church.
And so that was very simpletenets of, you know, and I think
it landed all the kind of likeearly moral, you know, stuff

(49:20):
remains interesting to me.

Yes,

how we treat each other, you know, good, bad, and
how quick silver we can be inone day, let alone as a person,
you know, as a character, right?
Oh, that's the, that's thevillain.
And here's the hero.
And you know, and as we know,it's often more complex than
that.
I can be all those, or one toone person and something
different to another person.

(49:42):
And are you lying to thatperson?
Or are you just Through theirlens, you know, you've become
that other thing.
those are the interesting peopleto me.
You know, those, thosecharacters where you're like,
I'm not sure how I feel aboutthat person, but they certainly
intrigue me.
And I want to see where thisjourney takes them.
You know, Jules Feiffer justpassed away.
The guy who wrote CarnalKnowledge.

(50:02):
And, I mean, that was always abig, you know, talk about a you
know, something that struck me,not just the fact that it was a
play, and then became a film,but just the, the formality of
it and how, you know, you putthat movie out today and people
will be like, whoa, that's, whatis this?
Yeah.
Pretty devastating, you know,his portrait of, and pitiless,

(50:23):
his portrait of men and womenand, you know, and their, their,
shenanigans together.
Shenanigans.

Sounds so nice when you say it that way.
And Mike Nicol

really transformed it into something formal and
beautiful and, and greatperformances and, you know,
right down to like sweet littleyoung Carole Kane who doesn't
speak a word and just, you know,is just all eyes.
That moon

face.

You know, they're starting to tear up as she
watched the horrible JackNicholson, you know, the
slideshow, you know, the end ofthe thing, right down to her.
Fantastic.
but you know, I mean, when thoseare those, those pieces you see
out there, you go, CarolChurchill's"Top Girls" and, you
know,"Fences", August Wilson,you're like, Oh, not only do you
love them, you're like, I wishI'd written that.

(51:08):
You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So there's like, there's never a day goes by.
I try to, for myself, I try towatch something that I think is,
is better than anything I'llever do every day.
I mean, it's like the racepractice.

I remember when I

was making, I was making"Your Friends and
Neighbors", and I ran somefilms, including'Carnal
Knowledge", for the cast.
I would just, I would get ascreening room and run, run
movies and, introducing them, Iwould say, well, we're about to
watch a movie that's way betterthan what we're about to make,
but this is what we're shootingfor, you know?
And so it was'Carnal Knowledge",it was Woody Allen's"Manhattan",

(51:44):
it was, you know, it was like,Things that I was like, yeah,
that's what I'm gunning for.

And I

don't know if we'll get there.
And we didn't really get therein the same way.
But, you got there in your way.
You got

there.
You got there.
This is what we're

shooting for.
Wouldn't it be fun to be thoughtof in the same breath.
And so, that's, for me, it'salways good to have heroes out
there and be like, wow, that's Idon't know how, in the same way
that somebody might readsomething of mine or see a
performance of yours and go, Idon't know how they do it.
You know, same thing I did whenI was a kid.
Now it's like, it's a littlelike seeing me on the curtain in

(52:20):
the Wizard of Oz and you'relike, oh, hey, it's just a dude
back there.
it's, there's, it's actually notmagic.
It is just, uh, it is, it'swork.
They do this thing so well.
That it seems like it's magic.

Yeah.

That's the fun of it.
But it's not.

it might not be magic in its classical sense,
but there is something, speakingof spirituality and religion,
there is something mystical thathappens.
And that has happened.
There's at

least a moment.
Usually.
I've seen plays without.
I've seen a play without thosemoments.
But usually there's a moment.
Sure.
We all have.
Or seven minutes.
You know, where you go.
Yeah.
You kind of like wake up andyou're like, I was lost.
I was in it.
And

yeah,

I mean, I'm fully aware that those people are on
stage and those are, you know,people that I've seen in other
things or their friends orwhatever, but you're so lost in
the story or what they're doing.
You're just like, you're takenaway.

It makes me emotional.
when I've seen the

beauty of you're about to be most emotional.
So I had to stop you.
Don't stop.
Please, please.
I think the original idea of inwhy people still talk about, you
got to go see a movie in thetheater.
Is that overwhelming experience?
Yeah, so big is there's, you cansee nothing else.

Yeah.

Watch it this way.
You know, when kids are watchinggladiator this way,

right.

I don't know about that.
I don't know.

There's no, no good on a four by six.

I mean, not for a four by six postcard on there,
but to be overwhelmed by apicture.
You know, I remember the firstmovie I was there that I
remember being taken to as a kidwas""Gone With The Wind"" My mom
was Gone With The Wind".
And then I mean, it was thelongest movie in the world for a
kid, you know, and I keptfalling asleep and waking up,
but every time I woke up, it wassomething like took my breath

(54:04):
away as a kid, like, I'm likethat battlefield or that that
that field of, you know, of thewounded, you know, and the flag
flapping and or Rhett pickingher up and walking up those red
stairs, you know, or whatever itwas I was like, oh my god What
is this that's happening?
It's just grand You know andthat's what the movies can do in
a way that Maybe nothing elsehas been able to do because but

(54:26):
not just because of the imagesand the sound and the emotion
But the size, you know, I would

say that the same for theater the proscenium the
size And you're in the dark

and you're suddenly like,

yeah, it's larger

than life.
Yeah.
And that's, I think a great, youknow, so I still try and go to
the movies as much as I can tohave that replicate that
experience.

Yeah.

I can't have seen behind the screen much more than
I have, you know, and it's like,I know exactly how that's made
and you see a shot and you'relike, Oh, that's cool.
I wonder if they, there's a lotof people who don't have that,
you know, information and I cansee it on their faces, how they
can get lost in a movie.
More than I can now.
Yeah.
You know, and I miss that.
I wish I was in that placesometimes.

Yes.
when you were watching King Learat your brother's college,
right?
Yeah.
You went see King Lear.
I, I heard something you weresharing about that which is what
it was like to see like themajesty of the thing, the
mammoth

of a, of a, of a 26-year-old playing.

Right.
King le and still, and still, I

believed it.
I was gone.
I was like, what?
I don't know what they'resaying.
I don't know what, but it's,it's something incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.
I have to be part of that.

Those kinds of experiences, Neil.
are happening all the time.
People get their hands on yourplays, whether they're
performing a play of yours,they're in a movie of yours,
they're working on a scene instudy class, time and time
again, people experience a kindof healing.

(55:59):
Through Working in your materialin particular and I think having
watched this happen countlesstimes so many times Like I've
lost count there's a lot thatyou put on stage that Circles
around the word of this worldthat will call shame shame

(56:20):
people that have shame over bodyimages over the weight of poor
behavior and Somehow, throughartists aligning with your
material, they go through thisprocess where, in like, getting
underneath it, going in anddigging around for like, what
these characters are dealingwith.
That they're dealing with on thedaily.

(56:42):
They're dealing with.
Deep rooted, you know, we weretalking about, religion earlier
and the, you know, that gets setup so early, the shame and the
guilt and trying to work aroundthat in your life.
And I wonder if, Luckily thathas never been

a part of my religious experience.
You know, that, that guilt thatpeople talk about, or the shame.
Yeah, Yeah, I luckily dodged allof that.
Thank goodness.
I never think of it in thoseterms, you know.
Even if I'm actively in itanymore, I certainly don't.
Have, you know, those feelingscropping up, you know,

of,

oh my gosh, I was, I was so,

you know, abused.
Yes.
yeah, but for all kinds ofreasons, oftentimes from a very
young age, this inculcation ofshame is deep rooted and
pervasive and Runs roughshodover a person's lifetime.
And what we talked about, thefunny

thing is we, what we talked about in movies, this
idea of being large in life andyou, you start looking at a
child again, you know, in a way,and you're like, every minute is
larger than life.
Every person is bigger than you.
Every experience is, you know,you're just, you're, you're wide
eyed.
And so, that, that formative,those formative years, those
first few years, that's why somuch of what you deal with the

(57:54):
rest of your life comes out ofthe handful of first years.

So spongy, so spongy and receptive.
So

susceptible to Your pores

are wide open and Yeah, yeah,

thrown your way.
So it's, it's, you got toremember that as an adult that,
you know, what, what those kidsare dealing with,

remember it and work on a Neil LaBute play
because something happens wherepeople get to the bottom of it.
I mean, I've seen this, like,the breakthroughs.
This is

the perfect thing for me today because, you know,
I hear the opposite as well,many times.
That this shouldn't have beenwritten.
and so, you know, that's twovery polar Wow,

wow.

So you kind of have to go through the valley of Of
death.
Speaking.
Well, that's the joy ride,

right?
The ups and downs.
You've heard it from both sides,but it is true.
I have seen when people haveliterally like those revelatory
moments, they're working onsomething, a monologue, a
speech, and they're like, likethe light bulb and you watch it
happen.
The whole class, we're allwatching it happen and they're
crying.
And then suddenly they get, Ohmy gosh, I've been so scared.

(59:01):
Of my father, who's not evenalive anymore, like, for my
whole life.
And whether they're working on"In A Dark Dark House", and
these things.
Join

the club.
That's a big ol club rightthere.

Yeah, it's huge, and these transcendent moments
keep happening in the hands ofyour plays and material.
And I'm wondering if, you justsaid join the club, so.
Oh yeah.
I mean, this is so rich, butit's like.
Do you get that transcendent,transformational experience
through what you write?
Occasionally.
Which is so on point with all ofthem.

There's a moment where I, you know, again, I'm
saying I don't write that muchbiography, and yet somebody else
can watch something, you know.
When I, when I did,"In TheCompany of Men", about white
collar guys doing, Mischief, um,my mom saw it and she goes, wow,
you really wrote your father.
Well, and I'm like, you know,first I thought, what, what did
she mean by that?
My dad was a blue collar truckdriver and, but she meant the

(59:57):
spirit of the person, you know,I think she was talking about
Chad.
Um, the, the one.
Sociopath.
Yes.
I was like, ah, interesting.
So even when you don't thinkyou're writing your family,
sometimes you're writing yourfamily.
So yeah, that mean, would I bethe same person, you know, if I
hadn't had a, uh, a tougherchildhood, of course I'd be

(01:00:18):
different, but you know, whoknows better, worse for me or
better, worse for my work.
It's just, you, you justcontinue.
down the path and take the, youknow, this road or that road and
continue on and climb thismountain and this swamp and,
and, and here we are.
And I'll keep doing that untilthere's no more in front of me
or until I can't go any further.

(01:00:39):
What sobering thoughts.
Goodness.

Robyn Cohen (01:00:42):
They're so yummy.
Let's get a little joy

Neil Labute (01:00:44):
back quickly.
This is

the joy because you're talking about like, it

is, it is joy to talk about it.

It is because it's the really, really

i was never a big talker about it.
That's probably why.
I would, yeah, I would, I wouldwrite because I, it was harder
talk about it.
Life is tough, you know, art,art's easy.
Life is tough.

but you can, like, it's like through writing, let's
say"In A Dark Dark House" youactually, could you actually
metabolize some of that lockedfear that locked up constriction
and terror?
different

box too often.
But, you know,

yeah, and it's there.
And then I do wonder if somehowthrough your creations, if
you've been able to consciouslyor unconsciously heal some of
that, I know actors who areworking on your material,
they're healing it right andleft.
So, you know, that's what'sgoing on behind your back.

Time does a lot as well.
You know, time,

time

is the great equalizer.
And so Um, eventually you lookup and 20 years has gone by and
my father's birthday just passedand I was like, it would have
been 98 and he's been gone forlike 18 years and yet there's
certain things you can think ofthat just make you like, you
know, shiver still to this day.
So, um, powerful, powerful job.
Not everybody should have it.

(01:02:01):
Not everybody should have it.

Speaking of time going by.

Or people ill suited for jobs.

you are a father.
Well, you have two grownchildren and one young'un.
Mm

hmm.

And, um, has that, has that having This young
Sprite is

yes, because of course,

like

everything that happens to you, you know, feeds,
feeds this thing.
but yeah, it's, uh, what would

you say is the biggest way?
It's now molded or reshaped whatyou want to create.

Inescapable joy, you know what I

mean?
Ah! The daily joy

ride is here! Don't want to, don't want to escape
it.
It's like, it's like, the best,the best thing, you know, the
best parts of yourself.

Inescapable joy that you don't want to escape.

This is evolution, you know, this, this one, this
one's going to be that muchbetter than I was, and, and hers
will be that much better than,you know, and it's that, that's
progress, that's, you know,human, human nature being
refined all the time, and yougo, you're So funny and great.
And you know, you're not evenworking at it.
And, um, and yeah, you wake upwanting more of that.

(01:03:06):
So it's, uh, better than anyplayer movie.
Did I just say that out loud?
Yeah, you did.
And it's the truth.
It's the actually, actually, Ithink we must end on that.

We must?
Oh my god, I've kept you here.

The daily joyride rollercoaster.
Oh my gosh.
I would keep you another fourand a

half hours, but I know you have

You have

a little unicorn running around.
Ah, alright, alright, last.
Penultimate.
Quick, these are quick.
Actually, Heidi Schreck gave methis idea in her play.
okay, so there'll be twoquestions and we can make them
as quick as you need to makethem.
What work of art has had themost impact on your life?

What work of art has the most impact on my life?
gosh, I'm, uh, again, this isone of those, you know, first or
most or, those are, those aretricky for me.

Because it's already your daughter.
It's already your daughter.

I mean, yeah, that is a work of art, I must say.
But if you're talking about thestandard sort of sculpture in
this and, and that, um, I'm abig, I'm a big Edward Hopper
fan, you know, I think he, uh,and so Nighthawks has always
been one that I, I was drawn to,there's, you know, it creates a,
a total story, I love short, youknow, short plays, short films,

(01:04:23):
short, The shorter form is sohard to work in, you know, short
stories.
Um, and whether it was true ornot, you know, they, they say
one of the shortest stories everwritten, like a full story, as,
as a bet, Ernest Hemingway, andit's probably apocryphal, but I
liked the idea that it wasHemingway, um, was challenged to
write a full story.
In six words, and what he cameup with was, um, baby shoes for

(01:04:49):
sale, never worn pretty, prettygreat

stop the car,

the power of words, you know, that takes six words
and you can tell, you know,beyond I mean, that that one
kind of stops me in my tracks.
Um,

that took my breath away.
Okay.
Okay.
As I say, whether true or not,

I want it to be, we'll make it true.

We're making it true.
We're rearranging history tomake that true.

That's a, that's, that's a pretty good one too.

Okay.
Speaking of words, how would youNeil describe yourself in three
words?

I would probably steal from, from"The Mercy
Seat", the character in there, Ibelieve he says something to the
effect of, he believes what willbe written on his tombstone, um,
he was okay.
So

much, I loved, I watched the preview, a preview
of"The Mercy Seat" with you,with Sigourney and Liev, and I
remember the day that we werethere watching the preview,
actually it was a final, maybeit was a final dress rehearsal.
Yeah, maybe,

something like that.
The final

dress.
And Sigourney Weaver, she'stalking, it's like, it's like
three fourths of the way throughand she's saying, don't you see
what I'm talking about?
Line! And she calls for line.
And the stage manager gives herthe line and she goes back to
it.
And I just remember like, yes,that's the magic, like it was so

(01:06:18):
powerful.
She like, it literallyelectrocuted her, what she was
talking about, and she lost thewords.
Cause she, it was so there, andthey were just like two animals
in the jungle.
And she was like, there are nowords for this moment.
She lost her, and I thought itwas, and then of course she went
right back to it and completedthe scene in the rehearsal.
But, I remember watching thatwith you.

(01:06:39):
I wondered what you thought.
Were you like, Oh my God,Sigourney, you were probably.
I love the process.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But he was okay.
He was okay.
He was okay.
Well, Neil, you are, you are,you are more than okay.
And, uh, I really, really thankyou for being here.
I can't tell you the, um.
It's been good to

know you.
As they say, yes.

And, and God willing, good to know you, uh,
going on from here on our dailyjoy rides.
And really, bottomless thanks toyou for providing so much
creative fire.
People's lives.
Thank you.
I'll look to play there

and uh, yeah, please do.
Yes.
Yes.
And we'll talk soon.

We will talk soon.
Maybe part two.
Alright.
We'll see what happens, on theother side.
Thank you so much, Neil.
Thank you.
You're the best.
Goodbye in every language.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Okay.
Thanks, Neil.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.

(01:07:43):
Oh, wow.
Wow.
Neil LaBute.
Incredible.
Incredible.
Inspiration nonpareil.
So much.
goodness and richness.
I'm so present to like, you findyour voice and then you say what
you want to say.
And if the critics don't likeit, they can, you know what it,

(01:08:05):
and you know, Who are the peoplethat wake up and decide they
want to criticize people anyway?
Is that the audience that we'replaying to?
I don't think so.
So what brilliant reminders, youknow, whether it's someone
that's giving you money, astudio, as Neil was talking
about to make a film, or youjust say, you know what, I'm
going to go off and I'm going totake this next month to just
make a movie that I want to makewith the people I want to make

(01:08:27):
it with taking matters into ourown hands.
and steering our ship in thedirection of our dreams.
I so got that in everything heshared.
I'm also getting what he saidabout, it's not magic, although
it is, it is magic because whatwe do does create a mystical
experience, not just foraudiences, but for the person

(01:08:48):
creating the thing, just doingthe thing in and of itself is a
mystical experience, but thatthere's also just the brass
tacks, like he was like, you gotto be ready.
You want to have your script.
I Had plenty of stuff to showwhen they came knocking.
I was like, here's this andthat.
And by the way, here's that overthere.
I also have for you.
So we're going to be ready,ready, set, go when the time is

(01:09:12):
right.
it's all just around the corneror it's happening right now.
But the point is be readyanyway, because on the daily
folks, we want to be practicingour craft.
Right?
Digging in, learning a newmonologue, working on a speech
from Hamlet, writing ascreenplay, creating that
painting that you're gonna putup in your bedroom, whatever it

(01:09:33):
is.
Just being ready really meanscontinuing to do the thing that
we love to do just for the sakeof doing it so that we can
ultimately gift it to the world.
So we want to be ready for thatSix Ways to Sunday.
Wow.
Is that beautiful?
And I'm so ready to continuethat joyful, creative ride in
classes.
Come on along.

(01:09:54):
They're starting up.
I'm going to put it in the shownotes.
But come into this gorgeouscreative community.
We're working on plays by NeilLaBute and John Patrick Shanley
and, Teresa Rebeck and Tina Howeand Shakespeare.
You've heard of them.
So come into the creative fray.
I work with people in groups.
One on one.
We're online.
We're in person.
A panoply of opportunities.

(01:10:16):
They're all yours.
Thank you all so much for beingpart of this splendid community.
It is in your listening thatthese.
conversations arise, we'reoftentimes talking about a lot
of the things that Neil wassharing about in this episode,
and it's just such an amazingthing to be able to say, Okay,
tag Neil, the people want toknow fill in the blank and to be

(01:10:39):
able to.
all share in these conversationsand these wisdoms.
it's such a thing of beauty.
Thank you for your continued,presence, your generosity in
listening and being part ofcreating this space for these
marvelous dialogues.
I loved being with Neil todaythrough you and with you.
I'm giving you all a group hug.

(01:11:01):
Until next time, stay hydrated,stay on purpose, shine your
light, and have a magnificentrest of your day.
Mwah! I'll see you soon.

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