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August 8, 2025 • 17 mins

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This episode presents an "Ethics Roundtable" discussion, focusing on the complex case of a 68-year-old female veteran, LK, whose advanced directive conflicts with her family's wishes regarding life-sustaining treatment. The source explores this ethical dilemma from multiple professional viewpoints, including a trauma surgeon, ethicist, spiritual care provider, physician, lawyer, and social worker. Each perspective offers insights into the challenges of honoring patient autonomy when a designated surrogate is deemed unsuitable and family members disagree with the patient's explicit end-of-life instructions. The central theme revolves around the legal and moral obligations to uphold a patient's advanced directive, especially when a surrogate's cognitive impairment or emotional distress prevents them from making decisions aligned with the patient's stated wishes.


keywords: autonomy, advance directive, surrogate decision making, substituted judgement

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
You're listening to Topics in Palliative Medicine, a
podcast dedicated to increasingknowledge of the literature in
palliative care.
Welcome to the Deep Dive, wherewe unpack complex topics, arm
ourselves with expert analysis,and distill the most important
insights for you, offering ashortcut to being truly
well-informed.
Today, we're plunging into aprofoundly challenging ethical
dilemma.

(00:20):
It really highlights the crucialintersection of patient
autonomy, family wishes, and,well, the intricate legal
framework of end-of-life care.
Our source material for thisDeep Dive is a fascinating
ethics roundtable paper.
It dissects a real-world case,offering illuminating
perspectives from multiplehealthcare and legal experts.

SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Yeah, and what's so fascinating here is how just one
patient's story can light up somany layers.
Medical ethics, decision-making,the responsibilities of everyone
involved, it's all there.
Our mission today is really topull out the most important
nuggets of knowledge from thiscase.
We want to help you understandnot just what happened, but
maybe more importantly, why itmatters, and how these
incredibly complex situationsget navigated Okay,

SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
let's set the scene.
Imagine this.
We're looking at the case of LK,a 68-year-old female veteran.
She arrives at a VA medicalcenter after a fall.
She's critically ill, her bodyjust ravaged by severe injuries,
a comminuted cervical odontoidfracture, a sternal fracture,
multiple rib fractures.
I mean, for an elderly patient,especially someone described as

(01:24):
frail.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Right.
These aren't just injuries.
They represent a catastrophicdecline.
It pushed her to the very edge.
leading to rapidunresponsiveness and emergent
intubation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
But here's the crucial detail, the part that
really ignites this profoundethical firestorm.
LK had a crystal clear advancedirective on file.
It explicitly stated she did notwant life-sustaining treatments.
Things like artificialnutrition, artificial hydration,
invasive or non-invasiveventilation, blood products or
dialysis, all specificallyrefused.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
And she even added a narrative note from her primary
doc, emphasizing her desire toavoid her mother's fate on life
support.
She said, basically, when it ismy time to go, let me go.
I don't want anybody doinganything.
Very clear.

SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
Very clear indeed.
Yet upon her arrival, herhusband, the person she had
appointed as her surrogate,vehemently insisted the medical
team do everything you can tokeep her alive.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
And that is the core conflict we're unpacking today.
That stark opposition.

SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
OK, so given this devastating situation, the
patient is critically ill.
Her directive is so explicit.
How did the initial actions ofthe medical team actually
unfold?

SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Well, that's an important point to consider
right away.
Our sources indicate the traumateam initiated non-invasive
ventilation, you know, BiPAP,and then they intubated her.
Her son was contacted,apparently, and he consented to
the intubation.

SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
He consented.
OK.

SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Yes.
But from an ethics perspective,the Roundtable paper points out
that these initial actions werequote, violations of LK's
advance directive.

SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Violations, wow.

SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
What's particularly striking and frankly concerning
is that this advance directivewas on file at the very same VA
medical center, yet it wasn'timmediately accessible or
consulted when she arrived inthe ER or during her initial ICU
admission.

SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
So it was there, but just not seen.

SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Exactly.
And this highlights a criticallogistical challenge, doesn't
it?
Upholding patient autonomyduring emergencies, even when
the patient has done meticulousplanning.
The paper also raises questionsabout the son's consent, calling
it a very weak sort of consent,especially since he apparently
said something like, I wasafraid she wrote that down
somewhere, which stronglysuggests he knew about her

(03:32):
wishes.

SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
It really makes you wonder, if a patient has gone to
such lengths to document herwishes, why aren't those wishes
immediately accessible and actedupon right when they matter
most?
It's baffling.

SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
It is.
It points to system issues,communication gaps, things that
can have profound consequences.
Now

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
let's turn our attention to LK's husband.
He was designated as hersurrogate in the directive
itself.
But when he arrived, hisstatements were just stark.
If she dies, I will die.
Do everything you can to keepher alive.
And repeating, you have to keepher alive.
She can't die.
What does that tell us about hisability to be a surrogate?

SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Well, it reveals a profound disconnect, really.
The ethics perspective in thepaper thoroughly explains why
the husband was deemed an unfitsurrogate.
The fundamental definition, thecore principle of a surrogate,
is someone who makes decisionsas the patient would have made
them if they could.
It's not about what thesurrogate wants.

SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Right.
It's about the patient's voice.

SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
Exactly.
But the husband, he was clearlydeciding based on his own
desperate fear of losing hiswife.
He was equating her survivalwith his own.
And adding another layer, hisrecent stroke presented
cognitive issues.
It affected his ability toretain information, to truly
grasp the gravity of hercritical condition.
He just seemed to be acting onraw emotion and fear, not

(04:51):
reasoned judgment.

SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
So the core issue wasn't just his understandable
emotional distress, but that hewasn't acting as LK's agent.
He was acting from his owndesperate needs.
That's a huge conflict ofinterest for someone in that
role.

SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
Absolutely.
A massive conflict.
The paper actually lays outBeauchamp and Childress' four
qualifications for surrogatedecision makers, and the husband
unfortunately failed on allcounts.

SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Okay, what are those?

SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
First, the ability to make reasoned judgments
competent.

SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
His actions were driven by emotion, fear, and his
Cognitive issues meant he reallycouldn't make sound decisions
here.
Right.
Second, adequate knowledge andinformation.
He consistently struggled tounderstand the moral and legal
weight of his wife's directiveor her grim prognosis.
They had to keep reorientinghim.

SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
Third, emotional stability.
I mean, his statements about hisown death if she died clearly
indicated he was emotionallyunstable in this crisis.

SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Yeah, that's pretty clear.

SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
And fourth, commitment to the incompetent
patient's interests free ofconflicts.
His commitment Commitment wasexplicitly to his own interest
in his wife staying alive,creating a significant
unresolvable conflict with herdocumented wishes.

SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
That analysis makes it incredibly clear.
Even if someone is legallyappointed, their ability to
actually fulfill that role canbe completely compromised,
especially in these high stakesemotional situations.
This case really drives homethat just appointing a loved one
isn't enough.
It's about their capacity andtheir willingness to truly honor
your wishes, even when it'sincredibly hard for them.

SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
It's a tough conversation to have beforehand,
but so crucial.

SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
And this is where the ethics roundtable format
really shines, isn't it?
We get to hear from differentspecialists, each bringing their
unique lens.
Let's start with the traumasurgeon's perspective.
Their initial goal,understandably, is often life
preservation at all costs.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
Yes, exactly.
The trauma surgeon notes thattheir primary objective is to
save a life, especially when apatient presents in extremis,
basically, on the brink of deathlike LK did.
They justify the initial actionsto stabilize her, including the
intubation, as a necessary Thatmakes sense in an emergency.

(07:03):
But they also emphasize that forelderly trauma patients, like
LK, who was described as frailbefore the injury, early goals
of care discussions areabsolutely crucial.
Even without an advanceddirective handy, they recognize
that, quote, So the immediate

SPEAKER_01 (07:24):
action is life-saving.
but the conversation needs tohappen fast.

SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Needs to happen fast.
The challenge, of course, isthat clear directives are often
not immediately available intrauma situations because of the
suddenness of it all.
Right.
Now, shifting focus, how didspiritual care approach this
incredibly emotional familydynamic?
The spiritual care providerstresses respecting patient
autonomy is a really highethical priority.

(07:49):
Their role often involveshelping patients articulate
their goals of care before acrisis hits.
They fully acknowledged thehusband's deep emotional pain,
suggesting an opportunity toexplore what lies beneath his
gut-wrenching statements tobetter understand his
perspective in grief.
That compassion is key.

SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Understanding the why behind his words.

SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
Exactly.
But they also raised skepticismabout the son, remember, the one
who consented to intubationdespite knowing his mother's
wishes.
That comment, I was afraid shewrote that down somewhere, was
telling.

SPEAKER_01 (08:21):
Yeah, that's problematic.

SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Very.
So their recommendation wasactually to bring the husband
son, and even the grandsontogether.
Let them share theirperspectives and try to
collaboratively arrive at adecision that truly reflects
LK's wishes, recognizing thatneither the husband nor the son
seemed like an ideal surrogateon their own.

SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Wow.
That sounds like it requirestremendous skill, a lot of
nuance and compassion neededthere to navigate such delicate
family dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Okay.
From the physician's vantagepoint, what was their take on
the situation?

SPEAKER_00 (08:52):
Well, the physician fully concurred with the team's
assessment that the His son,despite his initial hesitation,
was likely the most appropriatesurrogate, mainly because of the
husband's cognitive issues andhis clear panic mode.

SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
So they agree the husband wasn't suitable.

SPEAKER_00 (09:08):
Right.
They reiterated that a surrogatemust exercise substituted
judgment, meaning they actexactly as the patient would
have and be of sound mind.
The physician observed that thehusband's focus was entirely on
his own fear of loss, not on hiswife's best interest or her
clearly stated wishes.
They just weren't aligned.
They also warned that if thehusband continued to object

(09:28):
strongly, legal input might berequired, really highlighting
that difficult intersection ofmedicine and law.

SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Yeah, you can see how it quickly escalates.
And bringing in the social workperspective, how did they view
this complex dilemma?

SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
The social worker highlighted a truly
heartbreaking paradox here.
LK did everything right in heradvanced care planning,
meticulously documenting herwishes.

SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
She did her part.

SPEAKER_00 (09:52):
She absolutely did.
Yet the dilemma arose directlyfrom appointing a surrogate who,
despite his love for her,ultimately disagreed with those
wishes when push came to shove.
They emphasized that a socialworker's ethical duty is to
safeguard the interests andrights of patients who lack
decision-making capacity.
That's paramount.

SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Protect the patient.

SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Protect the patient.
While emphasizing deeply withthe husband's emotional pain and
understanding that overwhelmingemotions can profoundly impair
how people process information,they firmly stated that LK's
documented preferences must takeprecedence.
And they raised a fascinatingand crucial point from research.
About one-third of the time,surrogates actually make

(10:33):
decisions different from whatthe patient would have wanted.

SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
One-third.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
often based on the surrogate's own preferences and
values, not the patient's.
This suggests a vital need forpatients to discuss not just
their own wishes, but also theirpotential surrogate's values and
their willingness to upholdthose wishes no matter how
difficult when appointing them.
It's a deeper conversation.

SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
That's a really important point.
It's not just naming someone.
It's vetting their ability tofollow through.

SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Exactly.
So

SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
this case is clearly not just medical or ethical, but
deeply legal, too.
What does the law actually sayhere regarding a patient's
advance directive and asurrogate's authority?

SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Yeah, this brings up a crucial legal principle.
The legal perspective is firm.
Every person has a fundamentalconstitutional right to refuse
unwanted medical treatment.
That's based on U.S.
Supreme Court precedents.
Advanced directives like LKs.
They serve as the patient'svoice when they can't
communicate.

SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
Okay, the legal standing is clear.

SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
Very clear.
And critically, a health caresurrogate is legally required to
comply with the patient'swishes, however they're
expressed.
They are agents of the patient.
They must act according to thepatient's instructions and known
preferences.
The law is quite clear.
The surrogate's authorityextends only to interpreting the
patient's wishes, not overridingthem with their own.

(11:51):
They don't get to substitutetheir judgment for the patient's
documented will.

SPEAKER_01 (11:54):
So the husband, despite being legally appointed,
effectively had no legalauthority to contradict LPA's
advance directive.
That's a powerful distinction.

SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
Precisely.
No legal authority tocontradict.
The paper even cites the Cardozacase from 2008.
In that case, a hospital wasfound not immune from liability
for following a son's decisionthat contradicted his mother's
advance directive.

SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Why not immune?

SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Because the court held that the surrogate simply
did not have the authority tocontravene the patient's
documented wishes.
Therefore, the hospital couldn'thave complied in good faith with
the surrogate's incorrectinstructions.

SPEAKER_01 (12:28):
So following the unfit surrogate was actually a
legal risk for the hospital?

SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Exactly.
Therefore, the legalrecommendation in LK's case is
unambiguous.
The medical provider shouldrefuse to follow her husband's
directions, given her cleardirective and his lack of
capacity and inability to act asher agent.
Failure to honor LK's wishescould, in fact, lead to adverse
legal consequences for theproviders themselves.

(12:52):
It flips the usual concern onits head.

SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
That's a very clear legal stance, laying out
significant risk for the medicalteam if they don't uphold the
patient's wishes.
So what viable options did thelegal expert present for the
medical team facing this exact,very difficult conflict?

SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
Well, they outlined three distinct options for the
medical team to consider.
None of them easy.
Option one, deem the husbandunavailable.
and appoint the son as analternate surrogate.
This is considered the mostlegally sound answer, especially
if the local jurisdiction allowsfor determining unavailability
based on incapacity or conflict.

SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
But there's a downside.

SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
Yes, the significant downside is the very real risk
of litigation from the husband.
Even if the providers wouldlikely win in court, it puts the
medical team in a potentiallyadversarial position with the
family.

SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Okay, option two.

SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
Ask a court to replace the husband as
surrogate.
This is generally seen as saferfor the providers because a
court order would definitivelyresolve the dispute and provide
clear legal protection.

SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
But...

SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
But it's time-consuming and
resource-intensive.
Getting a court involved takestime, and in urgent medical
situations where every hourcounts for patient care, that
delay can be criticallyproblematic.
It's a legal path, not a quickmedical fix.

SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
Right.
Time is often of

SPEAKER_00 (14:09):
the essence.
And the third option...
This option is presented asperhaps the safest for providers
looking to avoid immediateconflict within their own
institution.

SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
But it doesn't solve the problem.

SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
No, it essentially kicks the can down the road, as
they say.
It leaves another facility toface the exact same ethical and
legal issues.
It doesn't resolve the coreconflict for LK.
It just shifts the burden.

SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
So truly no easy answers for anyone involved.
Clear legal pathways, yes, buteach with significant drawbacks.
It just highlights theincredibly complex navigation
we're between patient rights,family grief, and medical duty
under immense pressure.

SPEAKER_00 (14:49):
Absolutely.
A real tightrope walk.

SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
This deep dive really illustrates the
multifaceted challenges ofend-of-life care, especially in
these critical situations.
So what are the big takeawaysfor us, for the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 (15:00):
Well, firstly, I think the immense power of a
clear, advanced directive.
It truly is the patient's voicewhen they can no longer speak,
and it demands profound respectand, crucially, immediate
accessibility within thehealthcare system.
That logistical piece matters.

SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
Accessibility is key.

SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
Absolutely.
And secondly, the criticalimportance of choosing the right
surrogate.
It's not just about who you loveor who is closest to you.
It's about who you trustimplicitly to carry out your
specific wishes, even if thosewishes conflict with their own
emotional comfort or personalbeliefs.
The husband, in this case, youknow, likely appointed out of
love and trust, was tragicallyunable to set aside his own

(15:39):
emotional turmoil to truly actas LK's agent.

SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
That makes so much sense.
We often think about naming aloved one, our spouse, our
child, but we don't always fullyconsider how incredibly
difficult that role truly is orif they're actually equipped to
put our wishes first, even intheir own grief.

SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
Exactly.
It requires a specific kind ofstrength and commitment.
And for healthcare providers,this case unequivocally
underscores the ethical andlegal imperative to prioritize
patient autonomy, even when itmeans navigating incredibly
difficult family dynamics andpotential legal challenges.
You have to advocate for thepatient's documented wishes.

(16:15):
And remember the social workperspective.
It reminded us that patientsshould discuss not only their
own preferences with potentialsurrogates, but also try to
learn their surrogate's valuesto help ensure alignment, to try
and prevent It pushes us

SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
beyond just filling out a

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
form.
It makes us consider the entireprocess of advanced care
planning as an ongoing dialogue,a living, breathing conversation
that might need to So, for you,our

SPEAKER_01 (17:03):
listener, here's a provocative thought to maybe
mull over as you go about yourday.
What steps can you take today toensure your voice is heard, even
in silence, and that your wishesare truly honored?
Are your advanced directives upto date?
Are they easily accessible toyour medical team, maybe in your
electronic health record, ifpossible?
And perhaps most importantly,have you had those sometimes

(17:26):
uncomfortable but absolutelyThose are the key questions,
aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
They

SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
really are.
Thank you for joining us on thisdeep dive.
Until next time, keep seekingknowledge and keep asking the
important questions.
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