Michael Knox - From 40 Rejected Showcases to Artist of the Decade :: Ep 52 Try That in a Small Town Podcast - Try That in a Small Town Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I brought it in there and we played Hicktown.
We're sitting there listeningto the first verse and chorus.
You know you're excited, you'replaying your first thing to the
label and you want them, youknow, to love what you do.
So it hadn't registered yetthat something's wrong with the
playback.
I'm noticing the electricguitar is not in because his
left speakers are out and John'slike this is amazing.

(00:20):
So all they're hearing is thefiddle and the drums and the
bass.
And they're like this is amazing.
And Jason looked at me and Isaid don't say anything.
The whole plan with Jason is tobe the most commercial, to be
Tim McGraw's nightmare, to bethe replacement of that
generation.
And you can't do that if youdon't walk in the room and cover
all the bases, which is, I cantear your head off, I can steal

(00:43):
your, your girl, I can make youcry.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
You did it all and I can be.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Y'all did it all it's , it's, but jason's voice does
that you?

Speaker 5 (00:49):
know we bust a lot of balls in the talk bag mike,
it's a tough room.
Yes, I got news for you.
You could make it with workless on a lean record it's funny
because nobody would ever thinkof that.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
It's a tough room, you better you better have thick
skin.

Speaker 5 (01:02):
yeah, no room for feelings in that room.
And that's the magic of it,though, because I think that's
what I mean, part of thepsychology of it is to push
everybody's buttons to say, ohyeah, well, I'll show you, man,
your shit sucks.
The Try that in a Small Townpodcast begins now.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
And with that that, welcome back.
There's another episode of thetry that in a small town podcast
coming to you from the patriotmobile studios.
We got kaylo, we got thrash, wegot tk.
I'm kurt.
Tonight this is going to besuper awesome guys, guys, I
didn't want him on, you didn't.
Well, neil boycotted but Tullyand I convinced him.
We got some music.
I mean really music royaltyhere.

(01:51):
President, peer Music Nashville, I'd say super producer, I got
to get these stats right.
Yeah, 60 million singles, 30million albums.
How rude, it's insane, wow, howarrogant.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
It's insane.
How arrogant Did he send youthat?
By the way, Is this AshleyGoyer?

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Google.
It must be true.
He's done everybody.
Wow, that sounded weird.
He's produced everybody fromThomas Rhett, trace Atkins and,
of course, our most belovedJason Aldean.
We got Michael Knox in thehouse.
What.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Wow.
You got a better intro thanPaul Covey that intro that intro
.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
It did.

Speaker 6 (02:31):
That was the best one , and we do a lot of people yes.
Well, you got to to get whereyou are.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
I was going to pull this up, but it seems like
Google can't keep up.
How many number one singles areyou?

Speaker 1 (02:42):
on.
I'm at 29.
Hopefully whiskey drink will be30 yeah, he answered that way
too fast.
Well, I have.
I have one more than jason,that's why he's this.

Speaker 6 (02:53):
John morgan went up the chart, so he can tell me I
got it right, but um but no, we,we.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
You know, most of my stuff is with him by choice, so
but I mean, like I said, I meanthomas repp, before kind of he
blew up, right, yeah, yeah yeah,you know, um ret called me and
you know scott, scott bruschettacalled me and then ret said hey
, man, I want you to.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
You know, look at my son, and I'd never met him
before.
So we went downtown and watchedhim play and and then scott
sent me 10 songs.
I picked four of them and andwe cut them and got real lucky
with.
It goes like this yeah, massivesong.
Yeah, yeah.
No, it was a blast.
I mean, that was my first thingoutside of Jason.
It was the first kind ofexperience of doing something,

(03:33):
not including him, which I'vemade it a point not to do that
because I didn't want to shareour sound with anybody the
people- we said no to was youknow I'm not going to talk about
him here because it's insulting, but quite a list.
We turned down a lot of I turneddown a lot of platinum max at
the time that were calling us tokind of imitate our sound.
So well, back to us that's whywe're all here.

Speaker 5 (03:58):
We all love thomas, but back to us, kurt steer.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, back to us, but y'all played on y'all played on
pretty much everything I'vedone, you know, unless an artist
says, hey, I don't want tully.

Speaker 5 (04:08):
Well, I mean that's on them.
And then when they say thatthat's on them.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
It affects kurt and it affects rich you know,
because I can't I can't justhire one of y'all.
That's a really good thing Iwant to talk about later and
maybe on another podcast haveyou guys ever played on anything
separately?

Speaker 6 (04:23):
well, well, yeah, it's kind of like burton ernie,
though you can't really separate, you can't?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean, we've talked about it and not to make it
about us, but I mean we did at atime and michael knows this I
mean we were, we were a team.
It's like that's kind of how wedid it.
Let's talk about how we metmichael.
Uh, tully was through youruncle, right?

Speaker 5 (04:40):
yeah, I mean I met michael the second day I moved
to nashville.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, 96, uh, you were it was working at water
chapel, yeah, at warner chapelby the studio yeah, and you know
people always ask me.

Speaker 5 (04:54):
you know that that was for for me.
I mean, you know, lord send youdown a path for a certain
reason and that for sure, eventoday sitting here, sitting here
, I love looking back andknowing I was laid on that path
to see Michael.
It really that's how I feel,michael.
Neither of us knew Jason then,obviously, but I was 21 years

(05:18):
old.
I didn't know anybody.
Michael immediately startedplugging me in to some of the
artists that he was working withat that time and developing and
just kind of got me in thesystem of meeting people and
around the building where youknow I felt like I was, at least
had one foot near the door ofthe music business.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, but the first time I met you you were working.
You were fixing to leave, to gowork on, like this love boat.
Well, that was called the loveboat, Well, that was.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
I don't know if it's called the love boat.
That was before the musicindustry.
What was that?
You know?

Speaker 1 (05:50):
the film industry.

Speaker 6 (05:51):
Yeah, that was like a let's talk it out, talk it out.
This is great.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
Thank you, Michael this is great.

Speaker 6 (05:59):
Code name Dirk.

Speaker 5 (06:00):
That was a year after , though, I met you, so I ended
up working for yeah, because youwere hanging out in my office
for a while and then you wentaway for-.
I went to work for Disneyplaying an R&B band.
Yeah, yeah, which was a toughdecision at the time.
But even before then I rememberyou would call me about things

(06:21):
and you had artists you wereworking with and you'd send me
stuff to learn and maybe theymight be looking for a bass
player yeah at that point, whenyou're 21 and you, you're
looking for anything, and thatwas a great um thing for me.
Oh my god at that point, yeah,yeah, but you gotta remember it
was great for me.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
I was brought into a company.
I didn't know anybody a lot ofolder writers, a lot of people
have been there for 10 years.
There weren't a lot of youngerguys.
I just met marv green too, andhe was a brand new writer at
warner chapel this warner chapel.
So when I meet young guys my ageor a little bit younger or
whatever, I I I jump on thatbecause I want to feed off that

(06:58):
too.
And roy was great at that time.
Roy was one of my newsongwriters.
I was in love with his stuff,you know, and um.
And then meeting tully wasgreat and I time roy was one of
my new songwriters, I was inlove with his stuff, you know,
and um.
And then meeting tully wasgreat and I met all you guys
through tully well, and so justbackpedal a little bit.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
So let's go, because I'm sure everybody they always
ask the origin of the story withjason and us.
But even before that you hadgone to georg, georgia, for a
talent contest, right, and itjust happened to be Jason there.
Give people that back story.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was at Warner Chapel.
You know, before Warner ChapelI started the first song
plugging company in Nashville,you know, back in 91 called Hit
Pluggers.
I was working with Dobie Gray,you know Drift Away, bruce Birch
, my mentor, who just passedaway, which I miss him and you
know.
And then I moved in and openedthis place called Hit Pluggers,

(07:49):
which was the first song plug incompany in town.
So I started charging people250 bucks to plug their songs.
So I took out a press release Iwas an ad marketing major in
college so I learned how to dothat and all these old 50s acts
who knew my dad started hittingme up.
I had Don Everly, I had FreddieWeller, I had Vip Vipperman, I

(08:10):
had Dobie Gray, I had I had allthese 50s acts would come to me
and these music salescorporations out of New York.
They all knew my dad's name andthey all wanted Buddy Knox's
kid to plug their songs.
So I started there and I wasonly there for about a year and
we had one number one 10 cuts.
And then Gary Overton broughtme into Warner Chapel so to get

(08:32):
to there.
So I was there for a few yearsand I'm trying to find a write
off to go see my grandmother atax you know to like, go where I
could put it on my expenseaccount, a tax you know like
where I could put it on myexpense account.
And I found this you knowshowcase at the buck board, you

(08:53):
know, in 98.
So I went down to the buckboard, saw my grandmother during
the day, went to the buck boardat night and then 10 acts
played.
So I went to go see mygrandmother.
The next day went Saturday nightand it was the night of the
Warner Brothers assassins.
You know where.
They went in and firedeverybody at Warner Brothers.
You know they fired the wholestaff.
So all the Warner Brothersstaff left.
So I'm sitting there watching10 more acts and Jason was 18.

(09:15):
You know.
So 18 acts, 10 acts went, eightwent.
And he came up at about 11o'clock at night and him and
Justin Weaver was his bandleader on stage.
So he went up there and playedand I went up to him and talked
to him and said I got to see you, man.
So I left.
He gave me a CD.
I went out to his truck to kindof you know give him, you know,
get some CDs from him and sawon his seat, on his truck seat

(09:40):
or whatever he was in that nighthe had like Lionelel Richie, he
had Merle Haggard, he hadAlabama, he had Guns N' Roses.
I was like this is amazing, youknow, because everything he's
saying live.
You could tell he wanted to getsomewhere and just couldn't get
there.
Just couldn't get there.
But he wanted to go somewhere.
So I went home, called him,went back down and saw him.

(10:00):
It was worse.
Went back down and saw him histhird time and it was getting
worse each time.
So, the, so, the.
After the third time, I justsaid man, come back to nashville
with me.
I want to sign you because it'sgetting worse when you say
getting, what do you mean?

Speaker 6 (10:14):
oh man, the shows were bad, they were forgetting
words.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Nobody could play anymore like, just like jason
was, everybody was getting everyyeah, jason wasn't remembering
I would send him songs and he,he wasn't.
He, you know, he was new man atthat time.
I had authority, I was powerful, you know he was, he was
stressed around me, you know,and he wasn't learning words or
nothing, man.
So so I just said, man, youknow that first night I saw you,
it was amazing.

(10:37):
I said I just want to forgeteverything I've seen the past
few months and just come toNashville and I want to sign you
off that first night.
So I signed him, brought him totown and I just said we got to
get it better.
So that's what I did.
I brought him to town and, um,and, and you know, just started
working with him.
You know he, he looked like, youknow, tracy Lawrence, you know
Clay Walker, had the cowboy hat,the big belt buckle, tucked in

(11:00):
shirts, you know, iron jeans,everything you need.
Yes, well, I don't know.
I don't know when he came in.
I remember the first month hewas there, he would come into
the office dressed like that,like his stage gear, and I
remember asking him I said dude,is that what you wear when you
go out on Friday nights?

(11:20):
Is that what you wear?
And he goes, no goes, no, man,it's my stage gear.
And I said, well, come intomorrow with how you dress,
come in tomorrow with what youwear on a date.
And he came in the next morningin a ball cap earrings, thumb
rings, chains.
You know, he didn't have cowboyboots, he had something else.
He had those other boots y'allwear and y'all no, belt buckle

(11:43):
untucked, you know.
And I said, dude, that's that,that's it, that's, that's,
that's what you need to do, thatevery day, that's what you need
to do.
Just put the cowboy hat onstage and that's it.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
And, um, I'm sure he was gonna get there himself, but
, um, I just, I just pushed it alittle faster, as all yeah, I
mean it was an interestingjourney when he got to town and
then you know, I don't know ifwe want to journey when he got
to town and then you know, Idon't know if we want to fast
forward to when tully and I methim and rich and all that.
But you know we joke about thisnow.
But we did somebody want totell me the amount of showcases

(12:16):
we did for labels?
We got the deal on our 40thshowcase.
Yeah, was it really 40?
But before y'all yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
But before all that we did, you know, 98 to 2004, we
lost four record deals.
Oh yeah, and Jeff Stevens atone time was a part of it and
left us because he was like I'mnot seeing it anymore.
So we would get a deal withKeith Stegall.
We'd go man, I want to sign you.

(12:43):
And then he got fired.
Monday we were gettingpresidents of labels fired.
Every time they would offerJason a deal a week away they
would get fired Keith Stegall,tony Brown, larry Willoughby,
mark Wright.
They would all lose their jobs,like a month later.
So it was a monster like curse,let down everything.

(13:06):
So that that thing at the wildhorse that night that that benny
not benny, but the consortiumgroup showed up you know those
guys from broken bow to see us.
We were supposed to play foruniversal and universal didn't
show up.
So we put twenty five,500 inthis thing that y'all played at,
as you know, I think.
I think y'all were at thatshowcase, correct?

(13:28):
Yeah, you know, because I knowy'all played the Exit End
showcase.
Oh, we played so many showcases.
And had the opportunity to go toRushlow at that time.
But that last showcase we wereat the Wild Horse and they went
there to see Locash do linedancing and sing a song during
line dancing and we were to playsix to seven and they were to

(13:50):
teach line dancing right afteror right before or right after
and they said, oh my God, wewant to meet this guy.
So the next week Benny came andgave him a record deal.
We spent probably $250,000developing this project with
y'all and Jason.

Speaker 5 (14:05):
I remember the capital deal and thinking that
we had made it because theCapitol signed them.
Yeah, he was there for twoyears.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Dungan kept coming in going.
Can you do another showcase?
He's not smiling enough.
And then it would be anotherone.
Yeah, do one more, he's justnot smiling enough.
And we'd have managers there,you know, and they would all
walk out just saying this kidain't country.

Speaker 5 (14:29):
Oh no, we brought that up.
Yeah, Don't I remember youleaving during?
Yes, I'm pretty sure maybe wewere probably playing wire when
it looked so good at that point.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
No, you were playing evidence.
Oh, evidence Wow.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
But, you know, we've said this before, I know you
have.
I mean, during those showcaseswe were playing hits, we were
playing Emerald Sky, we wereplaying why.
We were playing Johnny Cash, wewere playing Hicktown which, by
the way, the 20th anniversaryof the release just came up,
yeah, You're the Love I Want toBe In.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
You're the Love I Want to Be In.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean all songs that were on the first record, or
two that were big hits.

Speaker 6 (15:05):
Laugh Till we.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Cry.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
But what people don't ?

Speaker 1 (15:10):
get, get it in there, baby.
But what people don't rememberis that a lot of the showcases
were at SR.
Yeah, where Tony Brown wouldcome in and I love Tony, don't
get me wrong.
He'd come in and he would leaveduring the intro of the first
song, I got to tell you, no, no,I had this whole 500 spread of

(15:36):
lapaz.
I had.
I had him a beautiful chaircouch, we had the room set up
and it was great.
And he and jason kicks into thefirst song and, um, and tony
brown's sitting there, he, I, weain't even out of the verse and
he goes, man, I just think it'sfrom me and I go dude, we're
not out of the first verse.
And then we get in and heleaves, and it was.
But we had a few of those youknow I don't want to spotlight

(15:57):
Tony we had a few of those.
I mean, we would go toconference rooms and we would
play for these people at rca andand these you know companies,
and they would go.
Man, we're just not seeing theenergy and I'm like, well, we're
in a conference room.
Can you, can you come to theshow we're playing every?
I had him at wild horse everymonday night at six, seven

(16:19):
o'clock.
Just come, come to the show.
But back then in the 90s, um, Iwas a song plugger then but you
couldn't get anr out past sixo'clock.
You just couldn't get them out.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
They would come to sir yeah, what I remember most
about, sir, is like we livethere.
It was room two, three, four,yes, and if you're lucky you get
into the big room.
Yeah, so we did like a numerousthree was our room.
We could yeah, three was a roomand we would spend a lot of time
these rooms and I remembermichael goes.
Okay, we got a big showcase.
We're going to the big roomdown the hall.

(16:50):
So they go to the big room downthe hall, I think someone that
tony brown was coming to and wewe rehearsed for two days.
We're in the big room, which isa big room, and they're all we
start playing and they're and,and they're all lined up.
Against the back wall.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
This is a football field.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
Against the back wall .
It's huge.
We got through half of thefirst song and I remember
looking up they're gone, they'regone.
We got four or five songs to go.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
What was the one on Music Row where they got the
pizza joint Castle?

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Door, yeah, the Castle Door.
The Castle Door, yeah, the.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Castle Door.
Oh, the Castle Door, that's theone that a supposed manager
said he wasn't there.
But I remember sitting in theback and I had Smoothie King
come and cater it.
We were trying anythingdifferent we could do, because
we've done had La Paz, we'vedone had catering, we've done
had.
If I give, give you money, willyou sign us?

(17:45):
You know, to everything.
And then we I said, let's dosmoothie king.
So we did smoothie king and andum, everybody showed up, we
played all these things and thenum, everybody left it was so
sad too because of that.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
The castle door showcase is the one that my mom
flew down, yeah, and aldine'smom was there, and so both our
moms are at one of the fronttables and the beginning of the
show.
They're excited by the lastsong.
I swear to god they're they'resaying like what are these boys
gonna do?

Speaker 4 (18:13):
they gotta go get a job back at pepsi.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
They gotta go back to pepsi.
Something's gotta happen.
But the accident show was theone that stunned me, because
everybody at the label came tome and said we had never seen
anything that great before.
Remember all the kids I droveup from the college, y'all were
playing down in South Georgiaand man, y'all killed it, you
killed it.
And that was the night Rush Lowcame back there and was like,

(18:36):
oh my God, I got to steal hisband.
But we killed it.
And even Mark and Clay Bradleyat the time was in A&R there and
they were like, oh my god, whatdo y'all?
Y'all got to keep playing, orthese kids are going to tear
this place down.
And we still couldn't get a deal.
And then we got the deal at.
You know, Larry Willoughbybrought him over to Capitol when

(18:58):
he got signed there and we satover there for three years and
then Dungan came and made ashowcase three times and then he
dropped him and I remember thatday it was.
You know, we wanted to get outof the deal.
But when it happens, man, youhate it.
You know, you're like crap, youknow.
And then Paul Worley was overat Warner Brothers.

(19:21):
I hate dropping names but it'sfunny.
But Paul Worley was at.
Warner Brothers when he wasthere and I remember sitting
there with him and Jim Head andhe came to Jason's showcase at
that thing we did in EastNashville.
What was that place in EastNashville?
Oh yeah, the.

Speaker 5 (19:38):
Woodshed.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, woodshed, and that's the one Keith Stegall
came to too and he offered us adeal and got let go a week later
.
And then Paul Worley and themwere there too and they called
us upstairs and I'm like, man,we're going to get this.
And Tim's like, yeah, man,we're going to get this.
And we go up there and Paulgoes.
You know, man, I just don'tknow.
I think we want to focus on, Imean you, you know, we're

(20:07):
signing rick trevino again,we're bringing him back and we
want to focus on that.
And we're just and we're like,you know, nothing against rick
trevino, but he had already hada deal, lost it.
You know, come back.
And we're just like, god, man,what do you do now?
What do we do?
And then, luckily, the wildhorse.
I just kept y'all busy at wildhorse.
I wanted y'all to have moneywell, so I kept booking y'all
we've talked about that a lot ofmoney and I buy jason gift

(20:27):
cards to restaurants because youknow him and his wife at the
time didn't have a lot of moneyand I was buying them gift cards
to go eat food and and go, youknow, have things during
christmas.
So I book a lot of rehearsalsduring christmas for y'all so
y'all can get that hundreddollars a pop.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
Hey, that's really nice and and free food, oh yeah,
and whipperman and all them.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Everybody at warner chapel is being like man.
You guys gotta let him go thisyear it's like seven years, guys
, you gotta let him go this yearand I'm going.
No, I said I can't letsomething go.
I love this much and and um andlook what happened yeah, I got
fired.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
it takes, I gotta let go, let me go.
That guys, I got let go, I gotlet me go.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
That's how you know you're doing something right.

Speaker 4 (21:07):
They let me go, but it takes guys like you, though I
mean to believe in an act.
I mean our listeners don't getto hear stories, backstories,
this deep and to see how long ittook, you guys.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
It took a long time, it took a lot of stress, it took
more hard times than people canimagine and more rejection.
I don't think people understand.
They all see us now, but Idon't think they understand the
depression, the rejection, thedepression of just not being

(21:42):
heard, you know, and I, and Ihate that for the kids today
because they get it once andthey're they're, they're
destroyed and I'm going.
Y'all have no idea.
Yeah, you know, the 90s weretough too much.
A lot more competition, a lotmore uh, gunslingers out there,
man, and it was man no, no, no,no, he ain't good enough.

(22:03):
Why are you wasting your timewith him?
It was tough and and who knew?
I mean at the time at WarnerChapel I was signing John Rich
to write songs for Jason.
I mean I was signing teamsaround him that that was the
whole point of this and gettingy'all back in the studio to let
y'all get good at the studio.
So I created a a crazy job fory'all to be the showcase band

(22:24):
for Warner Chapel so I couldkeep y'all get good at the
studio.
So I created a a crazy job fory'all to be the showcase band
for Warner Chapel so I couldkeep y'all working and getting
better.
So when this opportunity came,we would all be prepared and
then I would go live in thestudio trying to cut demos and
learn how to do that myself.
It was a long process, you knowof, and but very, very

(22:44):
deliberate, you know it wasalways your.

Speaker 5 (22:46):
It was always your vision.
I tell everyone this that thewhat they see up there when we
go on tour was always yourvision well, now I, I, I do, I
hear y'all say that, but it was.
But it was, though, because Imean taking the band in the
studio, which which you knowwasn't done then.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
It just wasn't done then, Especially an
unexperienced studio band Like Ihadn't played in a studio
before.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
But the funny thing is is but watching you with your
dad at the disco parties.
And then Redmond chimed in oneyear and I remember when y'all
introduced me to him at SR andI'm like I already met him.
He played CRS with y'all onetime and pulling that together
was my job.
It was y'all's job to perform.

(23:34):
It was my job to just be thecircus.
You know, let's create thecircus Because nobody's doing
the Brian Adams, the rock androll thing Nobody.
So we got McGraw doing it.
You got Garth running aroundthe stage wanting to be Kiss.
You got McGraw wanting to bethe cowboy guy, but nobody was
doing.

(23:54):
In your face, let's just guitarslinger this thing and drums.
And that's why I went on thesearch for Peter Coleman.
It took me two years to findthat guy, to make my record
sound like journey.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Well, you know I heard tolly talking about your
vision and I I 100 agree withthem.
I know tolly remembers the veryfirst demo yeah, that we played
on for jason.
And you guys will get a kickout of this, because I don't
think we've said this before butdo you remember what it is?

Speaker 1 (24:23):
I have it you do.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, I remember you skid row.
Yeah, I remember you.
And the only reason we coveredit yeah, the only reason we did
that is because I had him at thebeach jason jason, I had him at
the beach.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
We were on a retreat at warner chapel yeah and jason
and we were going through songsand I played michael.
What was that bluer than blue?
Mich Michael Johnson, Is thatright?
Oh yeah, and Jason's like I'venever heard that song.
I really like that song.
And then I played AlwaysSomething there to remind me and
he was like, yeah, I like thatsong, you know, and blah, blah,
blah.
And then he goes do you knowSkid Row's?

(24:55):
I Remember you.
And I'm like, yeah man, it'sgreat man of it or something in
my car.
So he, what key did he?
Do it in.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
Probably it was at least five steps whatever you
played in the whole step down,that's it.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yeah, that's it I have the demo.
I can tell you that.
No, no, no.
But they all went in the backstudio with pat hutchinson and
we all.
I just said let's cut it, let'sjust cut it.
Yeah, so they went back thereand we cut it, because I knew if
we could get in the ballpark ofthat, then that is my, that was
a vision I had.
Yeah, I was like then this thingmight can work.
And all y'all went back thereand we all, we all did a a great

(25:36):
b effort and it was awesome.

Speaker 5 (25:38):
I would say that I would say that studio at the old
warner chapel.
Yeah, I would say that's wherewe actually started to figure
out how to what that would belike.
Yeah, sure you know in its mostearly stages, yeah, but I threw
them into some horriblesituations.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
We would have writer, we would have writer retreats,
so I would make them go in thereand be the band for the writer
retreats.
You'll have Jewel, you'll haveall these big stars from Warner,
chapel, pop, la or whatever, soI would have them go in there
and these guys would horribly,horribly, horribly insult these
guys.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Oh, I would have had no business being there.
You got Tully.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Kurt and Redmond sitting in there just getting
slayed by these guys.
Yo, mr Guitar Guy, yo Mr oh itsitting in there just getting
slayed by these guys yo mr.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Uh, guitar guy yo mr.
Oh, it was jude.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh, jude, jude cole jude cole and and got all these
people just horriblydisrespecting them.
And at the beginning I wasgetting upset.
I would pull these guys asidegoing, hey man, these are my
guys, what you know, you don'thave to be an ass, you know.
And and then I and then y'allwould go play the showcases,
then you would go play theshowcases, then you would go
play the things, and then itstarted getting really good and

(26:50):
then y'all, but but all you guyswere great musicians anyway,
but y'all were all like indierock cover band guys.
So now we were getting intolike being a unit, you know,
being this thing, and and ittook about two years.

Speaker 2 (27:03):
It took about two and a half years.
Good times.
Let's get to like the firstrecord.
And you mentioned John.
You're talking about Depressed.
I'm getting it over here Beforeyou get through that.

Speaker 6 (27:13):
I mean, it's interesting and somewhat, you
know, I hate that we've waited50 episodes to find out the
truth behind Jason Aldean andeverything else.
Thank episodes to find out thetruth behind jason aldean and
everything else.
Thank god for michael knox andno, well, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I appreciate it.
That's.
That's pretty amazing becausebecause I think tully said
didn't you say you discoveredaldean?
I think it's episode three Ithink, we've all discovered a
different aldean for each of us.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Good point uh, but I was gonna say, you know, we of
course we were alluding toearlier hicktown, the 20-year uh
release date, uh, and youmentioned john rich, who you
know we've got a future episodecoming on with him as well.
Uh, hicktown, and you kind oftalked about it like people

(28:02):
weren't hearing that at the time.
It was like you said TracyLawrence, uh, clint Black, that
was a major risk, yeah, like abig time risk that was heavy,
yeah, uh so what made you hearthat song for one and go hey,
this is you, this is what we gotto do yeah, well, it all
started with, know, buildingthat team around Jason.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
We couldn't find the songs.
You know he was writing a lotwith Jeff Stevens, steve Bogart,
and they were all writingGeorge Strait songs, you know,
with Jason singing George Straitsongs and it was great.
But there was no, there wasnothing there.
You know bigger.
You know it's like it had to besomething that would scare the
crap out of you and make younervous or make you worry about
this.

(28:46):
It was too perfect, it was toonice.
I had Terry McBride in therewriting for Jason.
I had, and then I signed JohnRich, who then I signed Gretchen
Wilson, and then I signed someother cats and then this other
energy was coming into building.
So then picking wildflowerscame out and then Boondocks and
all these guys were floatingaround our building before then

(29:07):
you know, a little big town.
So I was hearing I mean, I washearing all that crap too and I
was like man, there's fixing to,there's fixing to be a big
shift, there's fixing to be abig shift.
So I want to be ahead of that.
So John was turning in thesecrazy songs.
You know, as he does.
You know like things.
That that you know he does youknow, like things, that that you

(29:27):
know he was writing for.
You know if him and big kennygot a deal at that time which
they hadn't at that time right.
So I pulled all these songsaside and I told jason.
I said, man, this is, this isthe energy, can you sing these
words?
And hicktown was not a lyricfor us.
Yeah, but we both knewmusically that would set the bar
, it would push us to that placethat we wanted to be.
So, um, that's why hicktowncame in there.
Usually we usually don't saythose kind of lyrics.

(29:49):
You know, like you know yeahbutt, crack all those things.
But.
But it was very important atthe time to to scare the crap
out of people to make wine,amarillo sky and these other
things work.
You know, because we had johnnycash already.
Um, john pitched it out fromunder us on the first record to
Tay Bay, otto and Tracy and,yeah, tracy Bird, yeah, so we

(30:13):
had all.
And why was getting pitched outfrom under us?
All these, all these?
John was desperate too.
He was wanting to succeed.
He just got bumped out of LoneStar, you know, he had, he had
no place to go.
He was creating his world too.
So there was a lot of stressand friction going on to make
this happen, you know, and um,but luckily it worked out in our
favor.
Man, we're, um, you know, terrymcbride and mcbride and the ride

(30:36):
did not have a hit withamarillo sky and big and rich
did not cut.
Hicktown and sh Shannon Browndid not have a hit single and
Taye Bay and Tracy Bird boththeir careers were over that
that year.
So we, we got all them songsand all them cuts.
You know that.
You hear, on the record are ourdemos.
We just upgraded.

(30:57):
All that crap was the stuff wecut in the demos.
You know, and I remember I cansay it now because we're 100
years later but I remember thembeing like hey, man, you need to
go in and re-sing that, okay,and we'd go, will you like this?
And we didn't do nothing andthey're like yeah.
That's a lot better and wedidn't change anything.
There you go.

Speaker 6 (31:15):
Now you got it.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
I mean because me and Jason are looking at each other
like the education I am now.
I'm like going, I don't knowhow to do it again.
I just know how to do it thatone time.
You know, I don't know how tomake this better.

Speaker 7 (31:32):
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(31:53):
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Speaker 2 (32:11):
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Speaker 4 (32:16):
You know I've been drinking this every songwriting
session today.

Speaker 6 (32:18):
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Speaker 2 (32:23):
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Speaker 2 (32:48):
Join our original glory family and help ignite
that original glory spirit.
We've talked about this a lotand maybe we'll talk about it
with you.
Since you're here, we'll giveyou your flowers.
Uh, you know what feels good.
You know what sounds good.
You've always been the bestsong guy I've ever known.
You can I appreciate it?
Well, I mean, just a hundredpercent.

(33:08):
You, you can pick out a greatsong for your artist.
You can pick out a great songfor another artist, but as a
producer, more than anybody I'veever seen or met and totally
has likened you to like rickrubin, which I think is a great
comparison well, I appreciatethat no seriously, you know what
feels good and you know itsounds good, and to that point
you're like this is good.

(33:29):
Yeah, why would we?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
mess that up.
Well, I'll tell you a funnystory about john loba and um.
He'll probably hate this, butum he doesn't watch his podcast.

Speaker 5 (33:40):
Yeah, he's not on our side.
What are they gonna do?

Speaker 1 (33:45):
they've tried for seven albums but um, so, um, we
brought hicktown in.
I don't know if jason remembersthis and they were in cummins
station, yeah, yeah.
So I brought it in there and weplayed Hicktown and we're
sitting there listening to thefirst verse and chorus.
You know, you're excited,you're playing your first thing
to the label and you want, youwant them, you know, to love

(34:07):
what you do.
So it hadn't registered yetthat something's wrong with the
playback.
So come the first verse, I'mnoticing the electric guitar is
not in because his left speakersare out.
So so I'm sitting there and Ifinally figured out and I look
at Jason and Jason looks at meand I said and John's like this
is amazing.
So all they're hearing is thefiddle and the drums and the

(34:29):
bass and they're like this isamazing.
And Jason looked at me and Isaid, don't say anything, they
love it, they love it.
And and I remember when thesong came out, I remember loba
asking me when, when the songwent to radio, that hey man, did
y'all do overdubs after weheard it in the office that day?
I don't remember.
I don't remember maybe hearingthat aggressive I've never heard

(34:50):
this, so the whole time theywere cranking it in the office,
the left speaker was out and wehad things.
We only had the one guitar, youknow, which was that?
Yeah, that guitar, yeah, andand that's the fiddle.
Everything else was in theright and up the middle, so the
left speaker wasn't on, so allthey heard was everything else
but the electric guitar.
And um, we love it.

(35:12):
Yes so wow so it makes mewonder what would have happened
if they heard that, if theyheard the electric that's meant
to be all these years I didn'tknow.
No, I never knew that story jacksizemore played the original
guitar that we, that we took outyeah, and jack played on the
first record yeah and adamschoenfeld was sitting in the
studio and had to leave and heplayed the demo and I said hey,

(35:35):
man can you just play what youplayed on the demo so we can
know what to play?
And that whole hick town washis one pass, rushed trying to
leave to go to another gig.
Yeah, and we just left it alone.
I completely forgot.

Speaker 6 (35:49):
Well, I want to pick up on what Kurt said about you
being a great song guy, and Iwant to show my appreciation
Because you were a song plugger,which is back in the day for
people listening, that's,somebody goes and actually plays
songs for artists and managersand things like that.
This ain't time it didn'thappen as much.
We'll send it, we'll text it,whatever.

(36:11):
But I'd had maybe two or threehits and you guys were already
rocking with with aldine and Iwas at emi, gary overton was
running it, yeah, and and I gotcalled in to to pitch for to you
for aldine.
Yeah, you know, and I thought Ihave never done that before,
like, like, then it wasn't itwasn't normal.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
By yourself, you went over there, yeah, but it wasn't
normal for, for uh no, it's notwriters to pitch, to pitch to
producers and things like that.

Speaker 6 (36:36):
I was like, wow, it must be a pretty big deal.
And so I thought, oh man, I'vegot 25 songs I can pitch for
Aldine, and this was like amonth ahead.
And so I started going throughthe list, taking my time, and I
said I've got 28 songs.
And then, three weeks in, I had20.
Two weeks in, I had 20.

(36:56):
Two weeks in, I had 11.
And by the time I got to youthat morning I cut it down to
one song Because I thought I wasreally something.
I thought I had something forAldine, yeah.
And the more I studied and themore respect I had, I was
thinking I only got one thingthat won't embarrass me and all
I wanted.
I didn't even want to cut onaldine.
I wanted to get another meetingwith you to play for aldine

(37:17):
when I had the right, do you?
remember what you played.
I don't remember it.
You liked it.
You didn't record it, but youbut you, you liked it, you know.
And you said you said uh, yousaid so, I really like that, so
I'll keep that.
You said you got something else.
It doesn't know, that's all Igot you and you were so
surprised because most peopletry to play four or five, six
songs.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Well, that was a plugger's trick, that was my
trick.
That was my trick to bring onesong.

Speaker 6 (37:37):
Yeah, and so that's what it is.
So, to writers out there, youthink you've got all these hits
and everything.
You think you've got them,until it comes down to it, and
then you really start payingattention, thinking okay, the
things I thought were greatthey're not great, they're just
kind of okay, okay, well, thething that I learned from being
a going from plugger toproduction is, you know,

(38:01):
plugging man.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I loved it, I was.
I felt like I was really goodat it.
I was on 180 million records inmy years at Warner Chapel.
I remember every cut I've everhad.
I loved every second of it.
I loved walking in there andknocking those home runs and and
.
But the thing that I rememberthe most is when I would go like
play for Garth Fundus or goplay it for who was Randy
Travis's producer, Kyle Lenning,kyle Lenning, kyle Lenning was

(38:22):
tough man.
I'd play something.
He'd pass on it in the introand I would always be like, man,
you need to get to it, you needto get to it.
And now that I'm producing onthat other side, I get that 100%
.
I can hear something in 10, 15,20 seconds and go, man, that
just ain't what we're lookingfor.
So it's definitely a differentear to learn and I respect all

(38:46):
them guys now that I beforewould dog them, insult them,
because they'd cut my stuff offearly.
But when you know it's such anawesome feeling to be in a room
with a producer that knows whatthey're looking for Instead of,
like some of them, would just gobring me a hit.
You know a hit, anybody cansing and I'm like, well, that's
horrible.

Speaker 4 (39:07):
Yeah, you know that would be a horrible thing I
can't believe K-Lo actually cameand played songs.
Yeah, because I couldn't dothat because these are like your
babies and you're like yeah, Iknow they're, they're gonna
reject, but I love these in yourface.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
I love meeting with songwriters over pluggers.
Anyways, the the pluggers had acar salesman thing about them
and I knew that because I was aplugger, you know.
So when I met with songwritersI felt like I was getting a
personal moment.
I felt like you were pitchingme something that, as a fan,
what you wished he would sing,and I had more success with that
.
I had a lot more success withthat.
You know, getting songs thatway I got.

(39:42):
I got more cuts from thesongwriters than I ever did the
pluggers.

Speaker 6 (39:46):
Well, and you'll still email us back.
You know like, even if it'ssomething that you're not
looking for, you'll still tellme to this day.
Email, email us back.

Speaker 5 (39:53):
What's your?

Speaker 6 (39:53):
issue.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Just say hey.
For a writer it doesn't matterwho it is.

Speaker 6 (40:00):
If we think it's from you, it doesn't matter, it's
just enough.

Speaker 7 (40:03):
But just say hey, cool song not what we're looking
for right now.

Speaker 6 (40:06):
And I'm thinking hey, hey, listen to it, and then
you're happy.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Well, that's the busboy in me too.
It's like when you go to therestaurants now you over tip
because I was a bus boy, I getit, I know what they're doing
and I was a plugger, so I'm likeman.
The only thing I hated is toknow did you really listen to it
?
Have you listened to what Isent you?
I hated to not know, so Ialways want people to know when
I'm listening so you know, butI'll just I try to listen to

(40:31):
everything I get, even to.
Today, I do.
I mean, it's just amazing.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Thank you, and you know, what I love is kind of the
push and pull relationship youand jason have and with songs
and, speaking to what you weresaying before, it's like, yeah,
there might a song might be ahit, but it just might not be
for aldine.
Yeah, uh, one of my most vividmemories of you going to bat for

(40:56):
a song that aldine wasn't sureon and I I'll be in this boat as
well, and you had to convincehim on was big green tractor.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, yeah, and I got .
I got on another band's tourbus and drove up to play it to
him one more time and drove 400friggin miles to that jamboree
in the hills or something.
Yeah, I remember west virginiayeah, well, wherever it was, I
don't know.
I just remember getting on abus and we were cutting the next
week and, um, some guys I knewwere riding up there and I said,

(41:26):
well, man, you know, that wasthe days I was young, I could
get on a bus.
I'm like, yeah, let me go upthere.
And I remember walking in andhe looked at me and goes, what
do we do?
What did we do?
Why?
What are you doing here, whatdid we do?
And I just had that one songand I played it and y'all were
sitting there on the couch, Iremember it was uh, if I'm not
mistaken.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
You wrote up they were crossing dixon.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yes, yeah it was a brand new man you have such an
incredible.

Speaker 5 (41:49):
I remember all this amazing it's, it's, it was a
festival and that's when you didit and thank God you did.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
For me to get on that bus too.
Yeah, Because it wasn't a goodbus.
That's another podcast, I don'tknow if there was a good bus, so
for me to get on that bus andride up there and play this big
green tractor, but I keptsending it to him and he
wouldn't respond you know orsomething, or he would pass on
it.
Yeah, I can to him and hewouldn't respond you know or

(42:16):
something, or he would pass onit, or yeah.
I can't remember the how theroutine worked, but I just
remember going.
Man, we got and this was one ofthose hicktown lyrics where it
ain't really what we do, yeah,but it was a pivotal moment for
us to kind of say, okay, itseemed, with dirt road anthem.
Man, we're sitting at that, um,that daggum restaurant right
there off the exit, at coolsprings, right in front of them,
what is that outback steakhouse?

(42:36):
We're just sitting there in theparking lot and I bring up dirt
road anthem.
I said, man, I know you don'twant to cut this last record,
you know.
And said, man, you know, let'srevisit this one, because I had
just cut it on brantley gilbert,and brantley walked away from
his record deal.
I cut that one, um and a coupleother songs, you know.
So so I pitched that one to himand my kind of party at the

(42:58):
same time and we had had itbefore.
We just never really went thereand I'm sure it was because
Brantley was hot local.
He was a Georgia boy, jason,georgia boy.
Sure, he was being respectfulto Brantley's.
You know thunder, you know thathe was having with it.
But it was just one of thosemoments, like big green tractor,
where it's not something we do.
But it's funny how those she'scountry, big green tractor, hick

(43:18):
town, um, you know my, you know, uh, dirt road anthem, these
things, uh, burning it down.
These things were everythingmain people at the label told me
were going to be career ending.
Yeah, where our career, that'show you know it's good, our
career moving songs.
And I mean they would saycareer ending.

(43:39):
I mean I'm talking burning itdown.
Oh, my god, you're not gonnaput out a rap song.
And I said, dude, I, I made ita point to cut every instrument
analog so there would be no drumloops.
They can't.
That was the beauty they can'tnot play it, yeah you know,
because redmond sat in there allday and played everything.
I made it a point to do that.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
Do you remember the day that I came over to the
studio Because I had a couple ofsongs on that record, a couple
I don't?

Speaker 2 (44:05):
remember that was on my party record.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
You had a few.

Speaker 7 (44:10):
You talking about Buried Down or Dirt Road?
Anthem no but, Dirt Road Anthem.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
Dirt.
Road Anthem.
No, but Dirt Road Anthem.
Dirt Road Anthem.
And he took me out to the truckand played me Dirt Road Anthem.
He didn't play me anything,they'd tracked on mine.
He wanted me to hear that one.
And do you remember what I saidto you?
I said I was sitting there andI go.
I just want to be on the albumthat that song's on.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, Because I heard it wrote an anthem.
I was like that's going to befreaking huge.
I just want to be on the record.
But you ended up being the lasttwo singles on that, which was
what?
Fly Over States?
And Tattoos yeah, tattoos, myfavorite.
Jason Aldean cut my favoritesong I've ever cut.
My favorite production, myfavorite video, my favorite

(44:49):
recording.
My favorite song I've ever cuton.
Jason, okay, why You're welcome, exactly ever cut.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Okay, why, you're welcome, just exactly.
You don't have to say that tome, that's just I'm thanking you
guys.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
But that's just a perfect song, a perfect image
for him.
You're walking.
Everything was perfect aboutthat.
The video was perfect,everything was perfect and I
love that song, that that guitarlick at the intro.
I knew when I heard the demoI'm like, okay, I can beat this
demo, what?

Speaker 4 (45:21):
And then when I heard the song, I was like that's
what you got to do with Knox isjust do a substandard demo, just
something on a good song thathe can beat.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
No, I love.
I love because y'all's demosare insane.
Anyway.
You, wendell, david LeeMurphyphy, these things, man.
Well, we get these kind ofsongs, man, they're, they're.
So all we're trying to do isnot to mess it up.
And something clicked that daywhere that intro lick, the band,
the feel, the vibe, the, theopen track, how the delays are
just falling.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
And it's just this moment, it's just, it was just a
great moment I gotta say,though, I remember the first
time I heard um, and I don't Ican't remember what just it was
just a great moment.
I gotta say, though, I rememberthe first time I heard um, and
I don't I can't remember whatsingle it was when y'all started
getting edgy and it was.
There wasn't a lot there, therewasn't a bunch of static,
wasn't a wall of sound, it wasjust edgy, and I remember the

(46:09):
first time I heard it.
I remember going I want to be apart of that.
Yeah, well, you were you.
I brought you in, that's,that's, that's what I'm talking.
I'm like I'm, I'm gonna be apart of that she's she's country
.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
I couldn't get anybody to hit the high harmony
and I brought in, I brought ingirls, I brought in everything
and I said who's the one girlthat can hit this?
And it was neil.
Neil hit that, you know, and itmade the song.
It kept it so red on top and itkept it so aggressive on top.

(46:41):
And she's Country.
The demo was all drum loop.
So we had to cut thatcompletely different.
And I remember playing that andCarson at the label was like
Carson and Lee was like are yougoing to keep all them guitars?
And I said this is the cut.
This is it?

Speaker 4 (46:55):
What are you going to keep all them guitars?
And I said this is the cut,this is it, what are you?

Speaker 1 (46:58):
talking about this, is it?
Why do they hate the guitars?
Because it's just not familiarto them.

Speaker 5 (47:06):
Nowadays.
That's what's so funny.
We're catching up.
Why do you think you can haveall those guitars on your stuff?
You have to go back and andlook at it.
Moments of that wide open albumlike big green tractor for one,
like the first time we playedbig green tractor the very first
time was the night we shot thewide open live dvd.

(47:30):
Yeah, we'd never.
Yeah, not played that right, itwas in yeahville, yeah, and I
remember playing that andliterally the place went crazy
and those days it was greatbecause no one heard anything
until you did.
Until it was on the album.
So that was a big moment, andsame thing with she's Country.

(47:51):
I mean CMA Awards played thatthing.

Speaker 4 (47:56):
I remember hearing she's Country and I'm like I
can't wait to sing this.
I can't wait to sing on this.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
They did an amazing background on that award show,
that whole presentation.
He walked out in the whiteT-shirt, jeans, and then they
did that whole checkered boardthing.
Behind y'all it was everythingbut rebel flags.
It was insane and that's whatblew us up.
After she's Country.
It was like own.
It was done.
We were, we were, we were.

Speaker 5 (48:23):
The next thing period , it was though, because, like
in those days which people againdon't understand, like you're
playing award shows, you knoweverybody's in there, they're
black, the band's in the shadows, everybody's in their black
suits the artists is you know.
Everybody's in their black suit.
The band's in the shadows.
Everybody's in their blacksuits.
The artist is you know.
We came out.
I remember you know, we hadwhite T-shirts and jeans and

(48:43):
Mikey Fry, who at the time wasour spare guitar player, had a
quarter top cut off.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
He was wearing a halter top.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
He was like I'm Jody Messina and you could really
smell us coming off the bus andI remember playing that thing
and looking at you know, becausethe great thing about award
shows for us, still to this day,is about the first 10, 15 rows.
You know, all the artists arethere and they're dressed up and
they're stiff.
I remember specifically makinga point that they felt this, you

(49:13):
know, and I could feel, okay,this might be our moment.
Yeah, to your point yes, maybethis is maybe this is going to
be our next little run it neededto happen yeah, oh, I was at
home watching it.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
I made it a point because whenever he plays I'm
such a, I keep myself in suchthe fan zone.
I love being at home watchingit, love.
That's why I don't really go onthe road that much, you know,
but I like watching it, like thefans watch it.
You know I'll go stand out bythe board.
You know, back there in thestands behind the board or
something or whatever, I lovewatching those things, man.

(49:49):
And after that show that nightit was ours to mess up Wide open
record was such a shock, youknow, um, you know coming album
was laughed until we cried onthe second, the third, the
second one.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
It was relentless.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just saying
that was my introduction to no,I mean I mean you, you rock.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
You blow everybody's you know balls off and their
hats off, and then all of asudden he comes out and does
your song.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Laugh until we cry, but that was he pulls that off
like like it was his song, yeah,but, but that was why we have
one of those on every record,laughing till you cry should
have been a bigger hit than itwas, and the video was perfect.
You know for what that was andthat that whole moment was just
us fighting, that sophomorething that was coming Relentless

(50:35):
, relentless.
I thought Relentless was ahorrible choice for our single
at that time, Even though Iloved the track.
I loved everything I wanted itto be.
Do you Wish it Was Me?
Which was a cool?

Speaker 2 (50:46):
thing.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
I remember you saying that that record I actually
feel like making that album,michael.
I don't know, we never talkedabout this, oh, here it comes.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
So since album not michael, I don't know.
We never talked about this.
Um, oh, here it comes.
So, since I got you here, no, Iremember the first record.

Speaker 5 (51:03):
What I loved about that record was you can, to this
day, you can hear thedesperation in it yeah, yeah no
you can you, can you can feellike this might be it, and I
remember like half the songs onthe album have a never-ending
fade out yes, because we don'tknow how to end them.
Yes, so we're like wait a minute, how's this gonna end and who's
gonna do it?
When we got to the secondrecord, I remember making it

(51:24):
thinking boy, this feels likewe've technically, like we've
gone up a step.
The sounds were good, likewe're always playing good.
Everybody rose up.
It didn't connect commercially,but I felt like we grew.
I felt like the record actuallyis an underrated album.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
What songs weren't relentless?

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Johnny Cash was our first single which was the first
song we ever cut five yearsearlier.
That was the demo.
That was the demo.
I just upgraded the demo.
That was actually the demoJason singing the.
The demo, yeah, and that wasactually the demo Jason singing
the demo four years earlier andeverything.
So it was that one.
It was Relentless and you're inKalo's song.

Speaker 5 (52:04):
Well, there were some great songs in that.
I mean on that album, I justthink the sophomore slump thing.
There were other songs thatcould have went with singles.
You know Kalo had a great song.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
It was one of my favorites too.

Speaker 5 (52:18):
It was, but what's interesting about that song,
though, is like I remember eventhinking then.
This is a really great song.
Great song what we were doingthough it was tough to do
Hicktown and Amarillo than whywe had developed this thing.
I know it, it was tough to do.
Hicktown and Amarillo than Y,and we had to develop this thing
, I know it.
It was tough to like.

(52:39):
It felt like we were slidinginto someone else's lane when we
did.
As great as it is, I rememberthinking this doesn't feel like
our lane right now.
It did maybe a couple years ago, but now we've got this kind of
roots rock country thing, youknow, yeah, anyway, it's just
crazy how it all works out.

Speaker 6 (52:56):
Kevin O'Neill loved it.
It was one of his favoritesongs, which one.
Kevin O'Neill we were at hishouse.
Michael will appreciate thatstory.
When you were introducing me hesaid hey, kevin, you know Caleb
wrote Laugh Until we Cried andwe're at his house.
We just played golf and havingdrinks and stuff like that.
It was a great day and Neil'sbeing nice, just trying to bring

(53:16):
me in the circle.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
I didn't know anybody .
I know him as Hobgood now, butI know now.
I know, yeah, Kevin O'Neal.

Speaker 6 (53:24):
That's his music industry now, yeah, and he was
fixing a drink or whatever.
He said I hated that song.
He said I hate that song.
I've always hated for Neil andI was like, hey, thanks guys,
we'll see you later.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Well, I'll end you on a good one.
When we played the record tothe staff, keith Stegall had
just come in and he was going tohead the A&R, john Loba left
and went to Big Machine for twoyears, and I think it was around
that time john was leaving.
We can't, you know.
Keith stegall came in and wewere at keith's house and we

(53:59):
were playing him the record withthe host staff there and that
song popped up and I rememberkeith going that's gonna be a
monster, that's gonna be amonster.
And jason looked at me and goesthat's money, that's money, you
know.
And they hadn't heard the mixesyet, you know.
So, um, that song, that songshould have been bigger than it
was.
It was just where jason was inhis career.
We were in a sophomore, weirdplace, coming off of relentless

(54:20):
and I think the town loves toroot against, against it and I
think that they were wanting himto go away.
And then she's country madethat not happen.
Well, plus, we were.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
We were touring hard, you remember.
Remember, I mean relentless.
So when that album came out, wehad the whole hicktown album
before that, right, so we'vebeen on the road, living on the
road, for 290 days sleeping inairports maybe, maybe more than
that, and every radio station inthe country had been out to our
shows and they're.
They were heavy shows I, thesong was great.

(54:52):
I just feel like the timing,that weird sophomore thing right
yeah, we had john, yeah, we hadJohnny Cash.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Then we had that one, and then we, because we didn't
have a number one on that wholerecord and we barely had a
number one on why I didn't knowthat.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
You know because we got jumped on why.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
You know, somebody jumped us and almost kept us out
of number one with why, and sowe didn't even have a number one
during that whole record, andit was john.

Speaker 5 (55:19):
You know, johnny, cash your song and then
relentless there were some sadlonely nights on the bus during
the album there was some sad.
I remember it was just like ayear earlier.
We were like it was like hellon wheels.
Yeah, down the highway on therealest.
We could feel a little dip andwe were like, oh no, this is it

(55:39):
15 minutes is up.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Oh no, it's happening , but you know what.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
If it wasn't for the Relentless album that made us
more aggressive, made us jumpoff the cliff and that's what
made us go head over heels withWide Open and you came into the
picture.
Then you got to remember, man,I was building the writers
around every two or three albumsI would have different groups
of writers come in, and Neilcame in during the Wide Open
record and Night Train is myfavorite album period and you

(56:08):
got the majority of them songson there.
So Night Train is, I think thatwas, the pinnacle of what we do
.
It's a decent song.
It's a decent song but anamazing record Great merch.

Speaker 5 (56:20):
It's a great title of an album and a decent song
Great hats.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
You had other songs on there that I felt were better
.
Yes, mike, you had other songson that album that I felt were
better than Night Train.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Me too, that we didn't get to 100% with you.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yes, that we didn't get to 100% with you.

Speaker 5 (56:36):
Hey, one of my favorite songs, Talk.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Yeah, Talk.
I love that song oh.

Speaker 4 (56:41):
I wore that out.
It's me and Wendell.
I love that song Staring at thesun, Mainly the bass line that
bass line song.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Well, absolutely, I can't believe.

Speaker 4 (56:53):
I had a solo part on that song.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
No, but Feel that Again is probably my favorite
song on the record.
Oh Michael.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
I've said this before .
That was the one that got awayafter me.
Yeah, feel that Again was it,and the first one on the record.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
What was that Town?
Nothing Town.

Speaker 5 (57:08):
Nothing Town.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Nothing Town should have.
It was 48 on the charts justbeing played and and the label
would not go to jason.

Speaker 6 (57:16):
Listen to this podcast, it'd be cool to have
another, another hit with townin it.

Speaker 5 (57:20):
Yeah, he needs another one of those.
Well, luckily we had 1994 tosave us all.

Speaker 4 (57:25):
So let me tell you something this is no secret, so
no one has to get me started.

Speaker 5 (57:31):
No one has to to be like it.
We are very vocal.
I remember I remember we wereplaying LSU the football stadium
on a festival and Aldine goesman, we're going to cut this
thing.
And he played it for me andKurt and we're like the demo of
it and, oddly enough, it was asong that Thomas Rhett wrote.

(57:54):
Yeah, I remember saying to himthe demo I'm like, dude, we
should not cut this.
Oh man, it's just going to bean album piece.
I'm like, if we cut this, Iguarantee you they're going to
think it's like the next DirtRoad Anthem.
That's why they're going to doit.
They're going to make you putout no, no, they're not.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Me out no no, they're not me, and kurt like please
don't make us cut, we cut it,and what?
Happened.
Well, it's almost to your pointbefore.
It's like if they hate it orthey think it's going to ruin
country music, it's a hit if yougot all the old guys going.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Oh, this is a hit yeah, you know it probably well.
The problem with that well, theproblem with that too is that I
remember the day we heard it.
Um, luke laird came in andplayed it to us.
We loved it and Jason loves JoeDiffie, yeah.
So we were like, yeah, man,we're going to cut it and just
have fun with it.
There were parts of it that Igot to admit that I liked.
Yeah, we thought I'm sorry.
We thought that after my kind ofparty, that we would have some

(58:49):
authority to say no, and itdidn't work that way.
And it didn't work that way.
I remember them coming to megoing man, this is another Dirt
Road Anthem.
And I remember specifically inthe office going this is not
Dirt Road Anthem.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
This is a novelty.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I said let's just do a video and just put it out.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
No, no, no Better idea.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
No, no, no, this is Dirt Road Anthem.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
That's the thing I hate about labels sometimes.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
They try to repeat what they've done, but what they
did to us on that song, though,what they did to us was bigger
than a, than a piss poordecision, because they don't see
what happens?

Speaker 1 (59:23):
is they're not out there every night in the road?

Speaker 5 (59:24):
yeah, we are living with exactly we are living with
them especially especially up tothe night train record, because
now we've established reallywe're confident in what we're
doing sonically.
We're confident what we'redoing, what we think we, what we
know we are right as as a bandand musically they pulled the
rug out from under us in thatsong because it it wasn't us

(59:48):
even though that could have beenmaybe a moment in time say you
do the video or say maybe foranother artist before we were
doing my kind of party and, yeah, night training and there's a
little more album, a little more, a little more.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
It was just more grit , a little more grit but you
know it's, it is what it is it's, it's, it's a stain it's.

Speaker 5 (01:00:10):
It's a stain.
You know what?
I'm looking I'm looking at allof those things.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
All of those things were meant to be.
They were meant to happen.
I agree it makes you go.
It's like learning lessons andwe all go through it.
Thankfully, you learn throughit and it freaking.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
You're right though, but I will let you know.
Every time they failed ongetting something up the charts
that they went to bat for prettyhard, we got more authority for
the next few singles.
Every time that happened, wegot more authority for the next
few singles.
Every time that happened, wegot more.
So Night Train wouldn't havehappened.
The Truth wouldn't havehappened.
Yeah right, we wouldn't havehad the Truth if we didn't let

(01:00:47):
them have Crazy Town.
We had to give them Crazy Townto get to the Truth.
And Jason was like well, can wedo the Truth and then Crazy
Town?
No, if you do the Crazy Towntown, then you can have the
truth, you know.
So it was always something wehad to do.
Now you know, these stories areawesome behind closed doors.
We knew what we wanted to besingles and, and we didn't mind,

(01:01:08):
but we just had a differentrhythm of how we wanted them to
fall, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
But crazy town is interesting.
You brought that up because Iremember cutting that song.
I remember having fun cutting.
I remember never liking thesong.
Really, as you know, it's oneof those things that we didn't
like.
Now, what's funny about thatsong is like it's more sticky
now than it was then.
Like if you, if you go to ourshow, even playing it now, it's

(01:01:31):
like it's evolved and it feelsbigger now than it ever did when
it was out, for some reason.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Well, you gotta remember, yeah, but you weren't
in fan mode, you were in man.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
This is kind of he was in hair mode.
Yeah, well, this is quirky.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I don't want to say this.
We're so cool, why are we doingthis?
But fan mode, that would havebeen a song.
Well, I did pitch it.
You know that would have been asong.
I would have pitched, you know,saying no, no, this is what I
want to hear y'all sing.
You know, because everythingcan't be cuts like a knife.
You got to give them some otherthings.

Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
You got to give them a laugh if you cried.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
to keep them honest, you got to give them a laugh if
you cried, thank you, you got togive them some meat.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
But the whole plan with Jason is to be the most
commercial, to be Tim McGraw'snightmare, to be the replacement
of that generation.
And you can't do that if youdon't walk in the room and cover
all the bases, which is I cantear your head off, I can steal
your girl, I can make you cry.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
You did it all, man.
Y'all did it all.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
But Jason's voice does that.
That's why he can sing yoursongs.
He can sing Rodney Clawson, hecan sing Wendell Mobley and he
can sing David Murphy.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
And he would cut my songs.
I would send you songs and thekey that I would do it if I was
doing a record and they're likeup here and he would hear
through all that just because ofthe song and take it down two
whole steps.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yeah, but he heard through all that well, he loved,
you gotta remember that's thesmooth rock side and even the,
even the ballads of lana richie,kind of really just sweet slick
sides of what he does, you know.
But I mean, you know he's mylife in music, you know all
these other things.
You know the.
You know my whole purpose ofproducing was to create this

(01:03:17):
artist of the decade and I, youknow it's always been my plan,
you know.
So when that happened it wassomething really, you know
you're hitting yourself on theshoulder are you taking credit
for the whole?
I'm taking 100 credit well, youshould, no, no no, but I just
mean that that was always theplan.
Yeah, you know.

(01:03:37):
So, in order to do that, youhad to go through these hurdles
and these fights and thesethings that we did.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Well, I'm speaking of hurdles and fights and all that
.
You know.
Kind of the impetus for thispodcast is obviously the song.
Try that in a small town.
Yes, um, so let's get your uh,your take on it.
Did you ever even see the songas controversial or a risk, or
how did you see it when it camein?

Speaker 4 (01:04:02):
I can't wait to hear this.
What's that I can't wait tohear?

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
no, I I never saw it controversial, because that's
what we do.
Yeah, you know you're it's notas a small town.
Yeah, you're asking somebodybrought up in ashland city.
You're asking somebody broughtup in macon, georgia.
You're asking somebody broughtup in Ashland City.
You're asking somebody broughtup in Macon, georgia.
You're asking somebody broughtup in a small town.
So, when you hear songs likethat, to me that's nothing we
haven't done before.
That is a small town lifestylevision and this is what we do.

(01:04:25):
This is our target audience,this is who we are.
So, to me, that was when all thecontroversy came.
I was just excited.
I was like, oh man, this isgoing to be bigger than we
thought it was going to be.
You know.
So to me, um, I love the songfrom day one.
I wanted to cut it.
It was in there and and I never, um, I never saw what everybody

(01:04:46):
else saw in it, I never saw itbeing controversial, I saw it
being our lifestyle, and youknow so, that's my opinion of it
.
Now, when it grew and did whatit did, it started getting real
personal, and you know so,that's my opinion of it.
Now, when it grew and did whatit did, it started getting real
personal and you were like, hey,man, we don't think like that,
we don't do that, we, we don't,we don't go.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
You know, do history reports on local areas you know
where that song came from, right, you know where the idea came
from.
Is from a songwriter namedkaylo uh walking power.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Walking in tights talk about it is a good story,
but it was walking in tights.
We don't need to talk about it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:15):
Neil, it is a good story, but it was Walking in
tights.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
I didn't know.

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
since you produced the record, I didn't know if you
actually knew where it was born.
No, no, a guy in tights powerwalking.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Tell me Caleb, give him the quick version.
No, I wasn't.
Were you walking in tightssaying try this in a?

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
small town?
No, small town, yes, yeah, trythis at a small town.

Speaker 6 (01:05:35):
The quick version is it was a prayer walk.
So before my workout I wasdoing a little prayer walk and
sometimes you pray for a coupleminutes, sometimes 15.
Anyway, it was a short prayerday and the sun was out.
It was a beautiful day and Isaid, in Jesus' name, amen.
I was in a happy mood andeverything.
Then I started thinking aboutthe news I was watching right
before I came out and they didthis montage of city violence

(01:05:57):
and this little lady with hermask on getting punched in the
face and knocked out.
And they went to the next frameand another stranger, different
city sidewalk.
Somebody snuck up behind himwith an aluminum baseball bat,
full-on hip turn, hit him in theback of the head and knocked
him out right.
And so I started walking fasterand faster and getting madder
and madder and just and said outloud says try that in a small
town, yeah.
So got so pissed and said, ohlord, I'm sorry because I said

(01:06:18):
you, you followed it up with mfr.

Speaker 4 (01:06:20):
Yeah, my mom it watches this.

Speaker 6 (01:06:23):
So but and I asked forgiveness right away, but but
nonetheless, I said I said allright, that's something right
there, and then I called neilwith that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
I just wanted the producer of the record to know
where the song was born yeah,well, it had to come from
something aggressive like thatin your belief.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
You know, because of the things you say and and and
how how personal you know thelyric is and and that's probably
what made people not like it isbecause it was the more
personal you get in a song.
It's funny how people reallydraw a line to their you know
how they like it or they don'tlike it, yeah, and try that in a
small town.
It's funny how people reallydraw a line to how they like it
or they don't like it, and trythat in a small town.
It never hit me ascontroversial but, like I said,

(01:07:01):
I stay in fan zone.
I really do.
I stay in fan zone and when Ihear the song I'm like man, we
got to cut that one.
That's great, we got to cutthat one.
So I never thought twice aboutit.
The only thing I wanted to dois make sure the second verse
doesn't choke and make sure theguitar solos are cool and make
sure when it hits that airwayman, there's something that
resembles my kind of party iswhat I wanted to give it and

(01:07:23):
that guitar tone.

Speaker 4 (01:07:24):
You know I wanted it to be a ballad, aggressive song
it's cool for our listeners tohear how our producers brain
works when you hear a song yeah,but I don't you automatically
think about stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Yeah, when I first, it takes me about a minute to
know if I like the song.
You know I love music.
I listen, you know, to it allthe time.
I wake up with it, go to bedwith it, you know.
So you know a song you likeimmediately.
So that was one that I don'teven have to listen to all the
words because I know who wroteit.
I know the, I know it's goingto be right.
So by the second verse wascoming, I was already thinking

(01:07:56):
about how to cut it.
You know, which was great, youknow because.
But there are those and thenthere's some that are a lot more
, a lot more effort.
You know that that you got tomake sound like us, or make us
fit into another mold, likeburning it down or something you
got to make us fit somewherethat burn it down was a but yes
try that in a small town amazing.

(01:08:18):
Um um.
You know it was funny how radioif people pay attention, man
radio was giving up on that.
And thank god for those peoplewho hated it because it made it
made them put it back on theplate and we were fixing to get
that whole type of music pushedaway.
And thank god for those hatersbecause it made that song come

(01:08:41):
back into play.
It made 20 people follow it, itmade all these writers start
writing it again and so you know, thanks to them, you know that
would have been the first peopleI thought at the number one
global, global number one partyis thanks to haters because this
song was negative, spins hadlost its bullet the week the
video came out, and thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:09:05):
Wow, thank God I didn't see that week of the
charts.
I thought it was doing fine.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
It was, but it was going slow.
It was a very slow song, butthank God for that, because that
brought that whole generationof what we see now.
Without those things beingpushed, we wouldn't have had
that, you know, wow.
So thanks to them, but I'msorry, no, no, no.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
I mean that was great .
I was just saying at Burn itDown I mentioned that, remember
that song was the first timethat we'd we had used like
something loop, heavy, yeah,heavy loops.
And so redmond sitting there inthe room, I remember I'm
thinking this is a departure youknow, yeah, no drums until the
very end.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
Yeah, the last course , yeah, you know of course, but
it ended up fitting right in.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Wait, tell me, I end up billboard song of the year.
Yeah, just, and we won album of.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I ended up billboard song of the year.
Yeah, just, and we won album ofthe year at billboard.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
That's the last time the awards liked us I don't know
.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
We did good with carrie.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
We got some yeah yeah was obviously great hey I I
want to make sure that we don'tuh, dismiss this, because I
think it's really cool and it'sa great story and you kind of
brushed by it earlier.
But your dad is Buddy Knox.
Yeah, he had a number one song,Party Doll in the 50s.

(01:10:26):
If I'm not mistaken, he was thefirst artist to write his own
number one song.
Yeah, is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
He was the first artist in the history of rock
and roll to write and sing hisown number one song.
Yeah, yeah, he's the firstartist in the history of rock
and roll to write and sing hisown number one hit.
Still not in the rock and rollhall of fame.
Still not in the songwritershall of fame.
I gotta sit around and watch, llcool.
J get in the rock and roll hallof fame and my dad is, you know
, died on a, died in a in awinnebago touring the world,
because that's all he knew to do.

(01:10:55):
So those things are tough and Ihate to bring this up, but I
even talked to the board, I eventalked to the head of the Hall
of Fame and they were like youknow, man, it's just your dad's
already passed away, it's notreally relevant, it's not this,
it's not this.
And I remember a year and ahalf ago I told them I said

(01:11:17):
who's the guy singing?
Uh, what lift goes up where webelong?
What's?
That Joe.
Cocker yeah.
I said, oh, so you're telling meJoe Cocker's never gonna be in
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,he's dead and she goes.
Well, it's hard to get peoplewho have passed away in the Hall
of Fame and your dad's notrelevant, so it'd be hard to
find advertisers.
And I said, well, well, numberone Joe Cocker's going to be in
the Hall of Fame and he's dead.
And number two, we don't want ashow.

(01:11:39):
I just want my dad in the Rockand Roll Hall of Fame.
You can just do it tomorrow andwe don't need a show.
I said this isn't.
You don't have to perform forus.
My dad belongs in there with hisGretsch guitar, sitting in the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,being the first guy to sing and
write his own number one hit.
And a year and a half later,joe Cocker's in the Rock and
Roll Hall of Fame and dad'sstill sitting there.

(01:12:01):
Just because he didn't die in aplane crash with Buddy Holly,
just because something didn'thappen drastic to him, they let
this one hit wonder.
That was the first to dosomething go away and that's
horrible.
I hate that, I hate that forhim and I hate the Songwriters.
Hall of Fame don't recognizethat either.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
That's horrible.
I hate it for you and yourwhole family because that's BS.
Yeah, just straight up BS.
You said he died in Winnebago.
Is this kind of like the 50swhere you have Colonel taking
all the money?

Speaker 1 (01:12:35):
Yeah, my dad died in 99.
And but he was a tour, he triedto make a living.
He did all this his whole lifeand he lived on the road.
He finally cancer caught upwith him.
You know he lived in clubs, youknow so.
But but yeah, he was signed toRoulette Records.
The mafia Mafia never paid him.
They used to put polaroids inour mailbox of my mom and big

(01:12:57):
brother wayne playing in thefront yard and just say you got
a great group, you got a greatfamily, buddy, just polaroid and
put it in there so dad wouldnever go sue them for the
royalties.
And then when morris levy diedin the 70s and um, you know, so
dad started getting some moneybut he had already sold 20
million records.
So 20 million, well, partydolls, so 20, probably about 20

(01:13:18):
million to this day 20 millionsingles yeah, to this day, but
you gotta remember that's 1957.
He was on the american graffitisoundtrack.
He's been, he's been played onevery.
He was the the 13th biggestsong in the 50s.
You know it was all thesethings.
You know, dad, just he'll losetraction every now and then
because you know somebody mightpass away.

(01:13:38):
Elvis gets a lot of attention,these things.
But I got, I got Polaroids andeight millimeters of my dad and
Elvis hanging out in themilitary, everything.
You know.
Paul Anka slept in my dad'sbathtub before he sang Diana.
I mean, I mean there's.
He drove Buddy Holly to meetNorm Petty.
You know he was supposed tosing That'll Be the Day and oh

(01:13:59):
Boy, you know.
So it's a lot of personalthings like that where you're
like going God man, just becausehe's a nice guy and didn't
scream and yell or didn't die ordidn't or didn't.
You know he.
You know Steve Miller put theJoker has Lovey Dodovey in it.
You know my dad had the hitwith lovey-dovey.
Yeah, I really love yourpeaches, let me shake your tree,

(01:14:19):
lovey-dovey.
But it was a blues hit too, butdad had the commercial hit.
So you know he had things youknow he had.
He had three gold records, oneof them.
So probably 15, 18 millioncopies that's unbelievable,
that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Uh, this is one of those conversations I feel I
could go on for hours and hours.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
Oh, we could go on forever.

Speaker 6 (01:14:38):
That's one more thing .

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
You got to go.

Speaker 6 (01:14:40):
It's a terrible transition.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
No.

Speaker 6 (01:14:41):
So maybe, jim, you could put this somewhere else.
It may not make the podcast,but I think you know my
father-in-law, andy Kerr and youmentioned Cross and Dixon early
on.
And you guys play pranks, youknow, and you guys play pranks,
you know, and all the artistsplay pranks and things like this
.
So he was telling me.
Actually he told me a fewmonths ago and I hit him up
today and I said, hey, what wasthat Cross and Dixon story you
had about Knox?
And he said, well, it reallywasn't about Cross and Dixon.

(01:15:04):
They were out there on the roadand they were at some festival
and Aldine was out there andKnox says Andy, you still got
any of that liquid ass?
He said I want to play a prankon Halding.
And Andy said, well, not on me.
I mean, I got some in theoffice.
So he went back he said wouldyou go get it?
And he went and got it.
So apparently you sprayed it.

(01:15:24):
And he told you he said don'tspray much.
And apparently you sprayed toomuch.
Can you tell that story?

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Do I remember this?
I don't.
Did you not do it?
Is this one of my road things?
I overhandled Apparently.

Speaker 5 (01:15:35):
Too many Zimas.

Speaker 6 (01:15:35):
He said that you did it and they had to evacuate the
bus.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
That was the story that sounds like me.
I mean again, Was that?
An early version of you thatwas probably the Hicktown
version of me, but I got off theroad a lot when Lawrence Mathis
got on the road which is awhole other name.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
It's like Bealejuice.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
You can't really say his name, but that don't mean
anything.
Dude, I'm ADD If I do somethingto spur the moment.
I don't remember half thatstuff, but that sounds a lot
like me and it sounds veryfamiliar, because I used to do
that to like Shoney's.
I would go in shonies and getthat stuff you'd buy at

(01:16:19):
spencer's and put it in theashtrays and watch everybody
leave.
I was like eight years now.
You know what's that?
12 years old, what is thatstuff?
Just the same stuff.
Oh, you know, you know it wasjust same stuff, but I you know.
So that sounds like something Iwould do okay, yeah, you know
what I love.

Speaker 5 (01:16:32):
I think people also they might like I don't know.
I think it's cool.
You go back to the 90s when wewere Working at the same studio.
We cut all the albums in.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
today, Same studio.

Speaker 5 (01:16:46):
Same engineer, Same guys.
Every time I go in there it'sjust like it's going back in
time.
It's crazy.
It's such a familiar.
I think a lot of people thinkwe're people maybe cut records
in different places.
Every other record it's likewe're in the same place.

Speaker 4 (01:17:06):
You guys have cut in the same place this whole time.

Speaker 5 (01:17:09):
I mean seriously, you'll grab a coffee cup.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
And it'll be your same cup you've had, it's the
same cup.

Speaker 5 (01:17:15):
I probably use when we're doing the Hicktown record.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
Yeah, but the people you're mentioning that go to all
these different studios andstuff.
You can say that they'reexperimenting with sounds and
stuff.
They probably have multipleproducers.
They probably they probablydidn't invent something.
You know when, when, when youinvent something, I don't care
what anybody says.
You know when, when Jason cameout, everybody after him was bro

(01:17:39):
country.
That was bro country, not theinventor, that's right.
You know so that you know.
So, when you're there and you'reinventing something, my goal,
you know, we don't need totravel.
We don't chase what these otherpeople sound like.
We stay true to who we are andwhat we do.
We might experiment with one ortwo songs on a record, but we
don't go and say, okay, let's gocut over here to sound like

(01:18:01):
this, let's go cut over here tosound like this.
We don't want to sound likeanybody, but what we've invented
and if and if and if what wedid wasn't so unique, then we
wouldn't be going back to thehole.
And and that's important forpeople to understand, because
that was the whole point of mesaying no to platinum artists
people on tour with jason wouldhit me up and say I want you to
cut the next record, I want.
I want that and I'm like goingno, man, I can't do that now.

(01:18:24):
I did it with Thomas Rhettbecause it was only going to be
two songs and I never wanted tocut just two songs.
But all these other platinumacts that were asking me to cut
stuff, it was a true disciplineto say no and save that.
You know, save that sound forus.
That's what I didn't want to beDan Huff and I didn't want.
I wasn't good at that.
I wasn't good at producingthings.
Just to produce it.

(01:18:45):
I had to A&R it, I had tocontrol it, I had to be a part
of it.
I had to feed off a group ofpeople that I believe in.
So I did that one year withy'all, if you remember, I cut
six, seven albums Worst year ofmy life.
Worst year of my life going inthere trying to be in love with
six different artists cutting 60songs.

(01:19:06):
I'm like I don't love 60 songs.
You know there's no way.
And so I hated.
I hated that process.
I hated asking you for songsfor the other artists I was
working with.
I hated pulling my crew that Ithought was my crew.
I know y'all had other crews,but you're my fucking crew.
This is what I do, you know,this is what we do, and I hated

(01:19:27):
pulling those favors with allthem other acts and and that's
when you started seeing meexperiment with other artists,
other people to find people whocould fit into our world.
So if it didn't work, it didn'taffect us and that was a
discipline.
It was a tough discipline andbut you know, my goal was not to
be the greatest producer in theworld.

(01:19:48):
My goal was to help Jasonbecome Artist of the Decade.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Yeah, you did it.
That was the goal.
Well, we did it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
Yeah, I know we did it.
It is a.

Speaker 4 (01:20:02):
It's cool to sit over here and be a part of what you
did, what Tully did, what Kurtdid and Caleb will try that in a
small town.
Just to be a part of the Aldineride is one of the coolest
things of my career.
One of the biggest things of mycareer, so I thank all of you
guys?

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
Yeah, but to go back when you were leaving your deal
and came over to Pierre, whoa,whoa, whoa, can't be talking
about my old deals, your olddeals, and you were leaving and
you were coming to Pierre.
That was a planned situation.
After coming off of Wide Open,I'm saying, okay, man, I've got
to build these next group ofsongwriters around.
So it was you.
It was David Lee Murphy wascoming present a little more and

(01:20:47):
this whole thing was coming alittle more present.
Rodney Clawson was slippingaway, John Rich was slipping
away a little bit.
There was writers that we weredoing.

Speaker 4 (01:20:56):
I never thought we'd get Flyover States cut.
Oh yeah, me and Delaney wouldjust sit, and bitch and whine
and just like, okay, he's gotthe song, they got the song.
But we had a few of those.
I'm just like when are theygoing to?

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
cut it?
Are they going to cut this?
Drowns the Whiskey was sevenyears old, you know.
Fly Over States was seven,eight, ten years old and you got
to, you know.
So all those things, you knowwe had more first-time
songwriters on our albums thanprobably anybody.
One album, what was after?
I think my Kind of Party hadlike nine first-time cuts.

(01:21:33):
Oh, really, Really yeah, JaronBoyer, Thomas Rhett oh, yeah,
Michael Tyler.
No, no, michael wasn't there yet.
Oh really, I brought all themin after Night Train.
I was grooming them to be thisnext group of guys and then
y'all came in current.
Y'all were the two albums ago.
This is your album to peak.

(01:21:54):
This is what we're working foris this album, and that's why
this album will be better thanthe last album and that's why
it's clicking so much easier.
That's why you can't say no tocertain songs and that's why we
have so many songs on thisrecord, because you're in a zone
and it takes two albums to getthere.
And that's why Night Train wasso special for you, because you

(01:22:15):
were flying by the seat of yourpants and wide open.
And I never thought that songwould get cut, and then Night
Train came and you were justticking them off.
It was you, you know, and thenyou know.
So it's all a plan for me everythree or four albums, you're
bringing in a new group ofwriters, and jason brought y'all
in this time and and that wasgreat, you know, we all wanted
to do it together anyway.

(01:22:35):
So it, you know.
So that that's where we areright now.
This next album, y'all willprobably have your best aldine
cuts, you know, and you know.
And then kayla, it's your turnyeah, to come back to make a
comeback.
Yeah, great, I like this planwell, I don't mean that in any
way it's just you're welcome, doyou?

Speaker 5 (01:22:58):
ever think.
You know, we talk about this alot and I think we're all guilty
of it.
I know I'm very guilty of this.
We're just, we get your headdown so much and you're working
making a record and you're,we're in the studio and this
last time, for some reason, youknow, I got very, almost a
little emotional in the studiowith, with you and with all the
guys on the floor, peter,thinking to myself you know,

(01:23:23):
from making the demos of johnnycash and why burning all of your
, you make a record, you tour,you make a record, you tour.
It's like I really took stockof, like everybody, like all you
guys in the process.
It was like we don't stopenough to take it in, yeah,
which I want to try to do thatbetter.

(01:23:44):
But, like you know, when we'remaking an album and we bust a
lot of balls in the talk bag,mike, it's a tough room.
Yes, I got news for you If youcould work with us on a Bean
record.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
It's funny because nobody would ever think of that.
It's a tough room, you better.

Speaker 5 (01:24:00):
You better have thick skin.
Yeah, no room for feelings inthat room.
And that's the magic of it,though, because I think that's.
I know it's for me like I wantto hold up my end of the bargain
, and I know everyone on thatfloor.
I wish someone I mean I don'tknow if they have recorded it,
but all the ball busting, butthat's part of the psychology of
it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
Part of the psychology of it is to push
everybody's buttons to say, ohyeah, well, I'll show you, man,
your shit sucks my, my stuff isgreat.
So so we dog, I get dogged,everybody.
I mean, what did redmond yellone time?
You know, well, yeah, I mean,we're just gonna play like the
demo.
You know, like like I had nopurpose in the room, you know

(01:24:42):
and, and you know I mean, but weall do this, I mean we all, we
all lay into each other, youknow, but it's nice, man.
One day, uh, kurt, you saidsomething to me one day.
One day you walked in and goes,man, good, good job on them
guitars and you're the player.
So that made me feel like, hey,man, I pushed him to a place
that they weren't thinking aboutit.
You know, and those are themoments you, you live for in the

(01:25:03):
studio when you're cuttingstuff that is so easy to cut.
It's easy to cut a Neil song,it's easy to cut a hit song, but
it's hard to make that hit songsound like Jason, and that's
what people don't understand.
The transition is because it'sso good with Neil singing it.
We're just trying to make it inthe ballpark of your demo.
Now, if nobody's ever heardyour demo.

(01:25:26):
We're frigging great.
We have cut a masterpiece, butyou hate that the world don't
get to hear those things.
I got a record coming out, butthat's all we're, and I'm
producing it.

Speaker 6 (01:25:38):
It's called Midnight Train.
Well, maybe I'll get some cutsagain it's called Midnight Train
.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
But that's the truth you got to remember.
Look at the people we get songsfrom.
We get songs from David LeeMurphy, morgan Wallen, neil
Thrasher, wendell Mobley, realsinger, songwriter guys, guys
that are elite in what they do,and y'all are a big part of
Jason's direction and sound.

(01:26:04):
It's like Alan Jackson.
Alan Jackson, if he doesn'twrite the song, he defines his
direction.
George Strait does not definehis direction.
So we relied on you guys towrite Jason's life and that's
why Tully and Kurt and them arehitting so well with y'all is
because they kind of know whatJason would say and wouldn't say
Because they've lived with himfor 25 years, 30 years.

(01:26:32):
But that know what jason wouldsay and wouldn't say, because
they've lived with it for 25years and that's it.
And but that's so important inthe process of of making jason
like a song is having thatprocess, you know and I'm a big
process guy.

Speaker 5 (01:26:37):
Everything to me is a process.
You know, it is such a crazything in there.
You know, sitting in the samespot we've made all these albums
in the same chair, in the same,looking at the same view, like
I wouldn't know what to do if Iwas sitting where kurt was and
looking at you through the glassyou should change it up
sometime when they okay, I'lltry next time.

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
As a matter of fact, see what happens.
As a matter of fact, I wouldn'tchange it up, I make them.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
When I pull in the studio, I make somebody was
parked in my spot and he was inthe other studio.
Who would do that?

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
he was in the other studio knew nothing about us it
comes down to that everybodyparks in the same spot every
album that that that is mytradition is hey, I pull up by
the door and I sit there andmake them move.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
I'll sit out in the car and we won't even start
until they move their freakingcar, I can't tell you walking in
even in the control room and itain't, it ain't an ego thing,
it's a tradition, it's almost ithas to be a certain way, like
if walking in that studio it'sthe same furniture, nothing's.

Speaker 5 (01:27:35):
This is not an updated place like no, this
place was already burnt down Imean, like I said, I mean
they're not restored.
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful,it's like, in that sense, like
man, this is like what a rarething to be a part of.
When you start rolling down theroad and you start, it just

(01:27:57):
becomes part of life.
When you look at it outside forone second, like it's like
really unique, oh, it's a shityeah but, it's like going back
to your hometown and it's apiece of shit, but you feel
awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:28:11):
Yeah, you're like going.
Oh my god, man, this place isrun down, but can I just stay
here?
You know, this makes me feelawesome and um, but yeah, I mean
, I mean the whole place.
We, we cut the, we cut the, the, the relentless record, and we
had the safeties and the mastersitting on the board and we were

(01:28:31):
going to start mixing the nextday.
I go in the next day and thewhole building's burnt down, but
the control room and thetracking room, everything's
burnt down.
The doors melted shut.
You know I going to take fromTrump God saved our masters that
day.
It's amazing.

(01:28:51):
The doors melted shut, theglass didn't break, you know how
it should have melted and wentin and smoked up and destroyed
everything that whole controlroom and the other room, but
everything else burnt down.
So while they're mixing thealbum, I'm coming in every day.
Peter and them are having tochange shirts two or three times
a day.
They're in the control roommixing, the doors are melted,

(01:29:15):
I'm walking through burnt woodeverywhere and there's black
smoke coming in the airconditioner vents and they're
mixing the whole.
So that's probably whathappened to the Relentless
record events and they're mixingthe whole, so that's probably
what happened to theirrelentless record if everybody
was high as a kite on on burntsmoke, you know yeah, that's
what it was, yeah we'll blame iton that.

Speaker 6 (01:29:35):
Sounds good.
We'll blame it on that I.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
I feel like the relationship that we have and
that we all have.
I honestly feel like this willnever be duplicated.
Yeah, the way it happened, howit's happened and we didn't even
touch, like you kind of didwhen you first met jason, I mean
, you were like you said, youwere giving gift cards, you were
taking them to movies, you weretaking them to go-karts you did

(01:29:59):
that with us too.
Not only were you the producer,you were our mentor.
It has been an amazing ride,and the fact that you've
included us on it and we were apart of it is just unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (01:30:12):
We're really appreciative but you don't get
this on air, yeah, let's do it,let's do it on air, I mean don't
expect much the peoplelistening.
Uh won't be able to see this,but we have a little gift for
knox today.
Oh, they can hear it yeah Idon't know how you're gonna yeah
, that ain't gonna pull so maybe, maybe we need enough.

(01:30:33):
There you go, do it, there wego it's fragile it's what it's
pretty easy, fragile from france.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
You see what this says.
This this says for gilly oritalian or whatever it says, it
says nox.
Thanks for for thanks foralways making us sore.

Speaker 4 (01:30:56):
Is that what it says?
Well, how do you spell sore?
Yeah, no, no.
It says thanks for making usall sound good, you in store,
and it says you rock sorry aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
I didn't see nothing on there.
Oh, there we go.
Oh there it is.
This is awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
Yeah, this is awesome , this is incredible some of the
people that are just listening.
We ended up.
Neil, did you hand write thoselyrics?
I did.
That's awesome.
That's my ability.

Speaker 4 (01:31:28):
Yeah, that's what I was about to ask.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
This is awesome.
This is a man cave thing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:33):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
This is great, yeah, and this song saved us, you know
, saved us like she's Countrysaved us.
Saved us Like I said you said.

Speaker 2 (01:31:44):
We feel like it was meant to be for a lot of reasons
.
It kind of gave us a reason tohave a voice here as well.

Speaker 5 (01:31:51):
And it meant a lot that you were a believer in it,
because I think the believers inthis song are around this table
and Jason and you, we were onan island alone with this a
little bit and we appreciate you, you know, being the steering
the ship we do With it all.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
Yeah, and I appreciate all that.
But y'all don't understand.
I love all the compliments, Ilove all the Don Was, I love all
those things, but all I am is acontractor.
You know, the only talent Ihave is is putting teams
together, and that's that's howI look at it.
You know, I can't sing, I don'tplay, I'm tone deaf, I don't.
You know, I don't.

(01:32:34):
I don't know when things are, Idon't know what's wrong with it
, I just know it don't soundright.
So I always say, hey, man,let's keep going until it feels
good.
So I always rely on how itfeels, not on what, how
technically good it is.

Speaker 5 (01:32:46):
You always say, though, I gotta make sure I get
this in there.
I remember you say this a lot,and you're like man, if it feels
good, it is good.
Yeah, and that that that to meis, is a lost art today.

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):
Like it feel good I think, the rest of the world
agrees well, that's what Ilearned from you guys is to stay
in my, in my zone, in my laneof what.
What I bring to the table and,and you know, it just happens to
be in the producer role, youknow, and.
But you guys bring in theattitude, you guys bring in the
songs, you guys bring in the,the emotions, and, and y'all

(01:33:21):
bring in the.
What we're chasing is to killthe live show.
You know, and I know recordlabels.
The last thing they want tohear is man, this will be, bring
in the.
What we're chasing is to killthe live show.
You know, and I know recordlabels.
The last thing they want tohear is man, this will be great
in the show.
Labels hate to hear that and Idon't know why.
I have no idea.
You know, because they don'tspend any time on the road, yeah
, and they're listening tosomebody at radio telling them

(01:33:42):
what they'll play, and thenwe'll give them what they asked
for and what they'll play.
And then we'll give them whatthey asked for and it dies at 15
, you know.
So it's.
I don't want their job either.
You know, because you know a.
You know a and r in the 90s isa lot different than a and r
today.
A and r today is is struggling.
A and r today don't know artistdevelopment.

Speaker 5 (01:34:00):
They don't know, they don't know artist well artist
development today is done bytiktok and youtube and what's
not artist development, it'sartist research and it's artists
.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
You know they think it's something.
So now we got a group ofnovelties, we got a bunch of
people that that that that canget a lot of clicks for
something that maybe not is longlasting.
You know something that thatyou know when you develop a
talent and you build something,you and when they fall down,
they can pick back up.
You know it's very athletic,it's very, it's very aggressive,

(01:34:32):
like that, where today's worldit's like yo man.
You know it's real easy toinvest in this because I don't
care to get above a B anymore, Ijust want to be a B.
But B can make me money, b canbreak even.
But we have no superstars.
You know we have no 10-yearplans right now.
And I know we got some stars, Iknow we got some great singers,
but but you know there's alwaysgoing to be a couple that will

(01:34:52):
rise.
But man, the 90s and and early2000s were a whole lot different
, you know, and and it was theindependence that did it and
their independence will do itagain well, plus, you did, you
could develop it though you were, you were great at that.

Speaker 5 (01:35:05):
You developed a whole you.
You developed the whole soundover over a period of time.
You know people don't have thethe patience for that.
Now to actually see what comesout of it or what it could be.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
Well, that was funny man.
But the whole warner chapelproductions, all that came from
us developing jason, you know Isigned gretchen.
They took points off her, theytook points off jason.
Emily west, um, so you know,started that whole process of
the warner chapel.
You know division and thenpeople don't invest in that
anymore.
Well, they don't invest in.

(01:35:38):
You know, publishing developstalent, record labels don't
anymore.
You know, record labels aregetting rid of radio teams.
It's still funny.
People with number one hitssells out stadiums.

Speaker 5 (01:35:48):
Well, we I tell everyone this, like you can.
Still, there's no denying thefeel if you're a young artist,
okay.
If you've got, if you'restreaming, well, great, can you
sell out a club?
I don't know.
You get a top 10, yeah, topsone.
Even you start going out there,you start seeing the difference
.
Okay, all of a sudden you'refilling up a club.
So it does matter, in thisformat especially.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Yeah, but I'm not going to throw any artists under
the bus because they all havedone it the way that they feel
they can do it.
But there's a lot of newartists out there right now that
are really big on TikTok orsomething, but you see them
singing and you see them blowingtheir voice.
You see them not having anykind of long-term stability in

(01:36:34):
what they're doing and you'rejust like, wow, man, well,
they're really big right now,but it's such a gimmick.
Is there anybody in A&R wherethat can help them evolve into
something else?
Because, going back to, arethere any people who can get out
of a sophomore slump?
That would be a best way tosaying it.
We got out of it because we knewhow not to give up.
We did 40 showcases.

(01:36:55):
We played in front of people.
We played in front of peoplewalking out the door before our
first course.
We played 40 showcases topeople that did not want to be
there, and so we had that.
These people today don't playthat.
They don't.
They don't.
They don't suffer like that.
They don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:16):
No it's an amazing point, and gary lavox was on
here and he said the same thingand I thought it was a brilliant
point.
It isn't like what you can doto win a crowd over, what are
you going to do when you fail?
How do you know what to do then?
Yeah, and that's exactly whatyou're saying.

Speaker 5 (01:37:31):
I think it's but they're not doing the showcase,
they're not playing the bars.
They didn't grow up doing it.
They're not failing.
They're not doing the 40showcases or one showcase.
They're just showing up on tour, yeah for someone, and they
don't know how to do it or howto handle it and it's.
It's just a crazy time lookingout like that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
Well going back to where we are right now, talking
about this song and the idea,how you got the idea and
everything.
We're in a world now wherepeople aren't allowed to think
that or write that.
So just to have that idea andsay, you know, man, I'm gonna
throw this up to guys in theroom, I'm going to write this
you have no idea how much that'sjumping off a cliff when we

(01:38:11):
were sitting through a COVIDwhere they said no more, no more
, no more of this, you know, nomore patriot people.
Hey, man, forget this.
We want this and this and this.
So just to bring that idea innumber one and to say, hey, I'm
going to write this, you writethis.
You're you know, I know, youknow these people, but it's
still a big deal to throw wordsout there, to throw a song out

(01:38:32):
there, to throw an idea likethat it was almost not written
yes, I'm sure.
I'm sure it was all.
It was probably almost notsingled, I bet if jason wasn't
jason oh it wouldn't have beensingle.
We talk about this all the time.

Speaker 5 (01:38:43):
But you know, the only people that were for the
song are at this table and Jason, that's it.
Like everyone else, you know,and I guess that's what will
always bother me is like thebelievers are at this table and
Jason is not here.
But obviously, if he was herebut you know, the people that
were pushing so hard against itand to this day are, probably

(01:39:06):
you won't say they loved it.
They had no problem benefitingfrom it.
Yeah, yeah, no, and and that'sthat's the thing, that, that,
that that's what really willalways bother me about it.

Speaker 4 (01:39:16):
Like, if you don't support it, well, you support it
enough to benefit from yeah,yeah, I know you're right yeah,
and I that's you know what atthis, at this stage in my career
, I'm good with it.
Y'all can take credit if youwant to.
Whatever, because I knew it wasgoing to come anyway.
The naysayers now they'resaying they knew it all the time

(01:39:37):
.
No, you didn't.

Speaker 6 (01:39:40):
No, you didn't, and that's okay.

Speaker 4 (01:39:41):
Whatever?

Speaker 6 (01:39:42):
One of the reasons we were so excited to have you on
on the podcast is is because,with without you, all those
years ago and your gifts, andyou're super humble, saying I'm
not this, this, this.
You're a lot of things.
You, at the time, you're thelabel, you're the manager,
you're the producer, you're thebooking agent, you're doing
everything, you're finding theright sound, the right guys and
believing in aldine like that.

(01:40:03):
And because, if, if youwouldn't have done that, try
that in small town, we mighthave wrote it, but Aldine
wouldn't have been here torecord it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:11):
So it would have just been sitting in your computer
somewhere and nobody would haveever heard it.
And one thing we never spokeabout is putting the band
together.
I know, S-I-R I know, All themother musicians that came in and
was trying out.
I, the musicians that came inand was trying out.
I know who's the one duderunning around the room, mark
easterling, I don't know ifyou're out there, but yeah, oh,

(01:40:32):
he was great too.
He was just, he was just,wasn't.

Speaker 5 (01:40:35):
He just wasn't the poser he just ran around the
room, so we got a guitar player,though, uh, he's not here right
now but he's gonna be here.
Be here in two hours.

Speaker 1 (01:40:46):
I'm in St Louis.
I'll be there in two hours andwe're like going.
St Louis is a lot more than twohours away.

Speaker 5 (01:40:51):
Well, that was my first day.
I told Aldine and Knox.
I said I've got the guy, I'vegot the guitar player.
He's going to be it's like 930.
I said, just talk to himno-transcript but seriously

(01:41:17):
though it's like it may beanother segment, but it's a
whole that I still remember thefirst big show we did.

Speaker 1 (01:41:23):
you came in in in white leather pants.
That's right, and I asked Kurt.
I said I said, man, where doesa dude find white leather pants?
And he goes they're chick pants.

Speaker 4 (01:41:35):
I definitely can't there has to be pictures
somewhere, oh there areunfortunately a lot of pictures.

Speaker 5 (01:41:43):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's an amazing, it is ajourney.
I remember the whole process oflike, I remember starving,
being a band and starving andmichael creating, creating
showcases that you know no onewould come to, but just to give
us a couple rehearsals where wecould make a hundred bucks to
rehearse and maybe some freepizza or something we'd had.
La paz, yeah, I mean that's,but uh, I don't, it's just cool

(01:42:05):
how one act, al dean brought allof us together.

Speaker 2 (01:42:09):
That's what I'm saying that's why this, this,
will never be duplicated.
I just believe that for a factbecause not today?
No, because business is not runthis way.
No, it should be.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
Yeah, they need to quit bringing people outside of
nashville into our record labelstelling us you know what we
should be hearing and who we are.
They need to be investing in inthe town.
The town in the 90s was allcreative.
All the people at the recordlabels were tony brown, tim
dubois, mark wright.
You know they were.

(01:42:41):
These were all creative people,with bruce hentons who stayed
out of their way.
Or you know dungeons who stayedout of tim's way.
You know it was a generation ofcreative people with Bruce
Hentons who stayed out of theirway.
Or you know Dungans who stayedout of Tim's way.
You know it was a generation ofcreative people running the
show.
And you know, and then thatwhen that changed and you had
people coming in here going, no,no, y'all should be doing it.
You should be listening to this.
You should cut this.
You should be that we need tosign this person because they

(01:43:05):
didn't make it out here, butthey would be great here because
these people are idiots.
You know so but so I hate that.
I hate where the town is rightnow, because they're not
investing in us, they'reinvesting in something else.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
Yeah, they're not investing in people or the you
know the town, which is reallyunfortunate.
Anybody got anything else?

Speaker 4 (01:43:28):
I mean we do, but but we can go on forever, we can
totally go on forever, we cankeep knocking this again.

Speaker 6 (01:43:31):
Yeah, we're gonna definitely have to come back and
do another, another part two,because it's uh, we again.

Speaker 2 (01:43:37):
Yeah, there's so much we didn't even get to.
Uh, we do need to tell people.
If you're watching on youtube,leave us a comment.
It's a pretty awesome episode.
I know ed's gonna leave us somecomments leave us those five
star reviews download.
Uh, we obviously want to thankour sponsors.
We want to thank patriot mobile, we want to thank original
glory e-spaces.

(01:43:58):
Uh, tonight has been specialfor us.
Really.
Thank you, michael for beinghere.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
It's been special for me too.
It's been awesome, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:05):
Thank you bro, thank you guys.
This is the Try, that in aSmall Town podcast.
See you next time.

Speaker 3 (01:44:12):
Make sure to follow along subscribe share rate the
show no-transcript.

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Michael Knox - From 40 Rejected Showcases to Artist of the Decade :: Ep 52 Try That in a Small Town Podcast

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