June 10, 2025 • 25 mins
Hey friends! In this episode, we’re diving into a topic we get asked about all. the. time. — why does it seem like so many flight attendants are gay? We’re breaking down the stereotypes, the realities, and sharing our personal journeys as a queer married couple working in aviation. From uniform policies to cultural experiences, from the freedom of anonymity to the challenges of truly being seen — we get into it all.
We’re also talking about how this industry has given us the space to be our loudest, proudest selves and how it continues to evolve. Whether you’re queer and curious about flight attendant life or you just want to understand the community better, this convo is open, honest, and full of heart (and, of course, a few laughs). Buckle up, because we’re ready for takeoff.
Episode Highlights:
[1:55] Just in case you missed it — yes, we're married, and yes, very gay.
[3:00] Why flight attendant life is so appealing to LGBTQ folks.
[5:23] Letting your guard down and finally breathing free.
[7:24] Discovering culture and queer acceptance in cities around the world.
[9:11] The hidden side of anonymity in aviation.
[11:22] The evolution of gender presentation and uniform policies.
[13:21] Why comfort in your identity equals better job performance.
[14:55] Flight Attendant Friday — celebrating authentic representation.
[16:32] Travel broadens your lens — especially for queer folks.
[18:56] Breaking the mold beyond the old-school gay flight attendant stereotype.
[20:42] Ask A Flight Attendant: “Do you just turn around and go right back?”.
[23:29] The real answer and why your mom thinks you're vacationing all day.
Thanks for flying with us! If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to rate, follow, and leave us a review. And hey — share it with a friend who could use a little sky-high inspiration. We’ll see you next time with more humor, heart, and stories from the beverage cart.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich (00:00):
You ever wondered what your flight attendants are
really talking about behind thegalley curtain? Welcome
Andrew (00:06):
to Two guys on a plane.
Your go to podcast for aninsider look at flight attendant
life.
Rich (00:11):
We're your hosts, rich and Drew, and we're here to tell you
what really goes on at 35,000feet.
Andrew (00:16):
So sit back, relax.
We're ready for takeoff. Welcomeback to two guys on a plane.
Today, we are going to talkabout being queer in aviation.
One of the biggest questionsthat we get asked on the regular
is, why are so many flightattendants gay? And so we are
gonna talk about it today. Yeah,
Rich (00:38):
we're excited to be back here today talking about being
queer in aviation, I feel likeit's such an interesting topic,
because people always ask that,and it all started with the
stereotypical gay male, sassyflight attendant, but I feel
like that was rooted insomething, you know, obviously
there was some truth to that,But it's definitely evolved over
(01:01):
time. But I remember I was doingan interview with some media
outlet a couple years back, andthey asked me this question, but
in like a not like a fun like,gosh, all these flight
attendants are gay kind of way,but in almost like an insulting
kind of way, like they wereinsinuating that it was a bad
(01:22):
thing. And that's what reallyprompted me to start thinking
about this subject, because it'slike, no, it's not a bad thing.
It's a cool thing. I think it'sawesome that so many LGBTQ plus
people come to the aviationworld and really just feel like
I can be myself here,
Andrew (01:40):
yeah, but before we really dive into the topic,
just, just so everyone is aware,Rich is my husband. We are gay,
two guys on a plane. We thoughtit would give it away, but it
doesn't really. So it's a verycase. There's any questions out
there, Rich is my husband. Weare
Rich (01:55):
always the people don't realize we're married, and we're
like, there's like, a rainbow onour Instagram account we post
our wedding photos, I don'tknow, but yes. So
Andrew (02:05):
most of this conversation is going to be from
our personal experiences on thisissue. So yeah, I remember when
this happened to you, becauseyou we started talking about it
because it made for I think itkind of bothered you. I do know
that it bothered you the waythat it came about. The question
came about from the person thatyou were discussing it with, and
(02:30):
then it kind of started a dialogfor us. Because, I mean,
truthfully, I mean, yes, thereis an appearance that most
flight attendants, particularlymale, are gay. I don't think
that's the truth, but what Imean, I know it's not, but
Rich (02:47):
I can say for sure I've definitely met a straight male
flight attendant. They're outthere.
Andrew (02:53):
They are out there.
We're friends with the viewers.
Rich (02:55):
We are, we are. But yeah, no, all jokes aside, I really, I
just think that it's always beenone of those jobs where you live
so many years as a queer personin the closet, and you just feel
like you can't really beyourself, and you're trapped,
you know, physically andmetaphorically, in this place
(03:18):
where you grew up, where maybeyou're not accepted for who you
are, and maybe there's a biggerworld out there. And I think the
flight attendant job reallylends to queer people, because
you spend so long hiding who youare and not getting out there.
And the opportunity to nowexplore the world, meet new
people, meet people from allwalks of life. It just, it's
(03:39):
really enticing. I think itreally draws people, you know,
kind of out of their shell andout of the closet, so to speak,
and really just lets them openup and come as they are
unapologetically,
Andrew (03:52):
yeah, and I think the anonymity of it really is
probably the biggest draw. Idon't think I knew it when I
started, but when you firststart flying, you realize very
quickly that you're never flyingwith the same people like your
coworkers, are never the same.
So on a monthly basis, you'veflown with 30 different people,
right, right? And so you justget to be your biggest, loudest
(04:15):
self in you know, coming from alittle backstory, I came I lived
in, I grew up in a small town,so I think that, you know, you
deal with the pressures oftrying to figure out your
identity, and then you get to aplace, you finally pick your
career, you get a job. I was 20when I started flying, so I was
(04:37):
fresh out of college, and I justfinally felt free, right?
Because you're flying to placeswhere it's acceptable to be gay.
You're flying with people whoare accepting of the fact that
you are gay, and even if they'renot, they're not telling you
that, and if they did, tell youthat, you only had to spend
what, two days with them, threedays. With them, and then you
(04:59):
may never see that person again.
So there is some freedom in justfinally being able to let down
your own personal guard andbreathe a little bit because the
passengers, I mean, don't care.
I mean, they're there for a goodtime. So if you you know, I
mean, as gay flight attendants,I think we use the demo as our
(05:20):
own personal little fashion
Rich (05:23):
show, a little runway auction, right? I think we were
joking about
Andrew (05:26):
it last night, just Jack 2002
Rich (05:29):
Yeah, it definitely isn't.
It's, it's almost like, youknow, we come out to people in
our lives, family, friends,whoever, inevitably, someone is
not supportive, right? Someoneis always saying, I don't
approve of this. I don't approveof who you are, whatever the
case may be, and it's almostlike this is meeting all these
new crew members and passengers.
(05:52):
It's like a new way to come outagain and feel maybe even
validated about who you are, andmaybe feel seen and appreciated
in ways that you haven't been inyour life.
Andrew (06:01):
But I think that was the good thing for me, is because I
didn't have to keep coming out,right, right? Because the
assumption was already there.
The assumption is that I am amale on a flight attendant, so I
am gay, so I didn't have toanswer those questions anymore,
right? I could just exist and beme, and, you know, for the most
part, safely be me, right?
Rich (06:22):
Yeah. I do feel like, I mean, there are obviously
exceptions to the rule, as thereare in any case, but I do feel
like, in general, there's nosurprise. You know you if you're
a male and you say my boyfriend,or if you're you know female and
say, my girlfriend, or whoeveryou're dating, whatever the case
(06:44):
may be, no one goes, oh, like,no one turns their head and and
is, like, makes it any sort ofuncomfortability there. It's
just normal. Like, it's it'snormal, it's casual, and it It's
freeing to feel normal andcasual when you have, maybe
haven't been growing up or inyour other areas of your life?
Andrew (07:04):
Yeah, I 100% agree, and particularly with, like, working
on the airplane. And I thinkthere's the added layer of the
travel part, right? Becausewe're going to layover, so
you're bidding layovers in newand exciting cities, like, I've
never been to San Francisco. Igot to San Francisco, and I was
like, this is the gayest placeI've ever been. This is so fun.
(07:24):
Yeah,
Rich (07:25):
yeah. I mean, it's, it's crazy, like, there, it's cliche,
but there really is a big mindworld out there. And, like, even
growing up, you know, I grew upin Boston and a relatively
liberal family that was mostlyvery supportive, give or take a
couple people. But, you know, Iwent to a Catholic school, and
Catholic school was very muchlike, Nope, you can't have a gay
straight alliance. You can'tbring your boyfriend to prom.
(07:48):
Like, there was a lot ofpushback in some areas of my
life, but I always thought, Oh,I'm in this, like, liberal
bubble, and then you get outinto the world and you're like,
there are people just living soproudly, and it's so inspiring
to see that. And I want to be apart of that life. I don't want
to feel like what I'm doing isnot okay or not normal, like I
want to, I want to feel okay.
And, yeah, it's just interestingto think about that. And then,
(08:14):
you know, I feel like there'ssome anonymity to being a flight
attendant, you know, like youwere saying about meeting
different crew members each andevery day, you can have a three
day trip and just be whoever,and come back to work next week
and be a totally differentperson. Not to say that you
should have multiplepersonalities, but, I mean, it
(08:35):
just kind of is nice that youdon't really have to think about
that. You don't have to answerfor yourself. You know you can
fly with people and not reallycare what they think about your
personal life. You can fly withsomeone who might be homophobic
or transphobic and who mightthink you know you shouldn't
wear this uniform if you're thisgender or whatever the case may
(08:58):
be, those close mindedprinciples, you can push back on
them in the moment. You can feelsome type of way about it, but
then you can kind of move onfrom that and and just keep
living your life for you. Yes,
Andrew (09:12):
I 100% agree. I also looking back on it, though. I
mean, there, there is kind of adarker side to all of this too.
Like, sometimes I feel like,because of the anonymity, I
traded one closet for anotherbecause you still don't let
people like, really get to knowyou, right? So while you're you
know out being your loud, proudself, you're still not allowing
(09:36):
people in to get to know you,that anonymity is kind of a
closet all on its own until youcan, like, figure, Figure out
how to to meld your queernessand your career.
Rich (09:48):
Yeah, it can be isolating, too, in those moments where you
know you're on a trip, and maybeyou're on a trip with people who
aren't super supportive of you,or you know they even vibe or
click. With, and now you're onthis three day, four day trip,
stuck with somebody, and it'slike, I don't know. I don't know
about this, right? I don't knowif I can do this for for another
(10:10):
day. But we were
Andrew (10:12):
talking to friends about it the other day too, though,
and it's not just gay menanymore. I mean, I think the
stereotype starts, I think thestereotype starts with men, but
I think that, I mean, we werehaving a conversation with
friends about it, and they werelike, I'm seeing more lesbians
out. And is that a new trend? Isthat something you guys are
seeing, it's evolving, for sure,yep, but lesbians have always
(10:35):
existed in aviation. It's notjust men. But I think because of
our such rigid uniform rules, Ithink it was easier for women to
blend right because the highheels, the pantyhose, the
makeup, the hair, like all of itare our rules are so rigid that
you you had to kind of but nowthat we're entering a new age
(10:58):
where our uniform policies arerelaxing and and companies are
finding that it's important forpeople to dress in a way that
makes them most comfortable. Ithink we're seeing a lot more
feminine presenting men, and Ithink we're seeing more
masculine presenting women onthe planes. And I so I think it
makes it easier to say there'smore lesbians, but I think, I
(11:21):
think they've always been withus. Yeah,
Rich (11:23):
I think that's, I mean, that's a conversation people are
having in general, outside ofthe industry as well, too, where
people are like, Oh, there'smore gay people now than there's
ever been. And it's like, no,it's just that we're starting to
be ourselves, loud and proud andout about it. And I think that
it's just people aren't willingto be in the closet anymore. You
know, people are that partstarting to realize and starting
(11:45):
to accept that it's okay to begay, it's okay to be a lesbian,
it's okay to be trans, it's okayto be non binary, it's okay to
be whatever version of yourselfthat you want to be, that you
are in your core. And I think,you know, obviously the
airlines, some are slower thanothers with progressing on this
issue, but I think therelaxation of some of our very
(12:07):
gender stereotypical uniformguidelines are really making an
impact, because people canchoose whatever uniform they're
comfortable wearing, and that'sreally lending to people just
feeling more free andcomfortable at work. And props
to the airlines that are doing agood job with this, and shame on
(12:28):
you the ones that are not doinga good job on this. Because, you
know, I think, I think this isreally helping the queer
community at work well.
Andrew (12:37):
And also, if you're allowed to show up as your most
full, authentic self, you'regoing to do a better job if you
feel like you're repressing orhiding something. I mean, you're
not going to do a good job
Rich (12:49):
at work. No, exactly. And our job is critical. I mean, our
safety responsibilities, ourservice responsibilities. You've
got 200 passengers on this planethat are, you know, their lives
are our job to keep safe at thatpoint, and if we don't feel safe
in ourselves and in our uniformand what we're wearing, and you
know, in our life, it's, we'renot going to perform our duties
(13:11):
well. So, yeah, I really thinkit has a ripple effect on the
individual talking
Andrew (13:17):
about being gay in aviation to uniforms. It's, it's
a quick turn.
Rich (13:21):
I mean, I think it's important. I think it's a very
important thing to discuss. Imean, physical and mental and
emotional all need to be alignedin order for someone to feel
comfortable with who they are,yeah, and yeah. It's been really
cool to see our industry growand change in a positive
(13:43):
direction. I mean, don't get mewrong, we definitely have
coworkers out there who are noton board with that. One of my
favorite things about our flightattendant Friday series, going
back to that, is that we've beenable to feature multiple people
that are wearing the uniformthat met like maybe not
traditionally assigned withtheir gender, they're wearing a
(14:03):
comfortable a collection that'scomfortable for them, and being
able to put that out there. Andwhile yes, there are negative
comments and pushback, it's sobeautiful to see people just
being themselves, 110%unapologetically. And it's so
inspiring because I just thinkabout even like in my own
personal life, you know, as akid, like being a little gay boy
(14:26):
running around with Barbies andloving pink, like, yeah, a
little stereotypical, but beingmade fun of for that by everyone
you meet, including your ownfamily, it's hurtful, right? And
so to see people now justleaning in to who they are and
expressing themselves so openlylike it makes me emotional, it
makes me hopeful that there isgood in the world and that we're
(14:49):
going to continue in thisdirection, even in the dark
times that we are experiencingin life. Right? In
Andrew (14:56):
case, this is your first episode, the flight attendant
Friday that rich referenced.
That's. A series we do on ourInstagram page where we
highlight different flightattendants once a week, once a
month, once a
Rich (15:07):
week. I do the posting, in case anyone was wondering,
Andrew (15:13):
but our flight attendant Friday is active, flight
attendants who submit storiesand then we share their we share
their stories on our Instagram.
Yeah, agree wholeheartedly. Likethat has been one of my favorite
parts of that series, as seeingand allowing people to be them
for their full, authentic selvesand see how that is translating
out onto the line. Because thesame like growing up in a small
(15:34):
town things that you don'treally have the words or the
ability to say, and no one'steaching you that either, but
that to then, you know, seepeople out just being 100%
themselves, it makes you want tofigure out who you are, so you
can be yourself too, yeah, whichis, honestly what I love about
aviation. You know, we talkedabout the good and the bad with
(15:56):
your crews. I don't think we'vetouched enough on travel and
culture. Being queer like thatwas one of the biggest things
for me. You know, as a baby,little gay, when I started this
job, I mean, it wasn't justwithin the US though. I mean, we
kind of giggled about going toSan Francisco for the first
time, but I just think the worldis so I mean, all the different
(16:19):
cultures and all the differentways that humans are celebrated,
and then you feel like you'retrapped in this little box, and
you get out somewhere in Europe,and you're like, Oh, this is
fun,
Rich (16:32):
yeah, I mean, and you meet people, and you're like, I
didn't even know living yourlife this way was an option, you
know? Like, you just get stuckin your own little bubble. And I
think, I think that really helpsqueer people see, like your
life, that you grew up in, thatmaybe made you feel stuck or
trapped or restricted to being acertain type of way. I think
(16:56):
this job, you go out and, likeyou said, you see all these
other people in these cultures,in these cities that embrace
being queer or embrace religionor embrace other cultures, or
whatever the case may be, andyou think, Well, gosh, this is a
choice. I don't have to live mylife this way. I can choose my
own life, choose my own path andreally just be myself in
(17:17):
whatever version that is, yeah,
Andrew (17:19):
or seeing people who are like religions, who are inviting
other cultures who like inviteyour queer into their religion,
instead of, you know, trying tokeep it separate or trying to
condemn you for it like, I thinkthat was the most eye opening
thing for me was that there arereligions in the world where
everyone is celebrated, you areallowed to just be I think
(17:40):
that's beautiful, becausegrowing up, you did, I mean, I
didn't think I'd see that everanywhere. No
Rich (17:48):
no. Seeing that kind of just acceptance on a whole new
level is not something I wouldhave ever imagined would have
been in our lifetime, right? Imean, like you were making fun
of, you know, just jack fromWill and Grace. And it's like,
when we were growing up, thatwas kind of it. These, like, two
(18:10):
white gay guys on TV, and we'relike, okay, cool representation.
We're there. Queer people are onTV, but like, are we always
going to be reduced tostereotypes like being a male
flight attendant, you know, orreading Jack Mary a male flight
Unknown (18:25):
attendant.
Rich (18:26):
Oh, my God, did he Yeah, oh, he
Unknown (18:29):
was right. Did he marry up a day into the series?
Rich (18:33):
He definitely dated a flight attendant at least, or
maybe the one in the end, didn'tthey get married in the airport?
His name
Unknown (18:40):
was someone answered
Rich (18:42):
this question for us.
Yeah. Now we need to go on alittle grace binge. Um, but
yeah, I just it's cool to seeall of that evolve and just not
be boiled down to a stereotypeand what that has become today.
It's
Andrew (18:56):
truly my favorite part of being a flight attendant is
the acceptance that you feelfrom literally everyone, yeah,
Rich (19:05):
yeah, people that in any other circumstance would
probably some of them wouldscoff or be judgmental about it,
but it's like, Hey, you're crew,I'm crew. You live your life, I
live my life Cool.
Andrew (19:22):
Now, let's go grab some drinks and enjoy this layover.
Right? Exactly,
Rich (19:26):
right. Well, I think this has been a great conversation
about this, and it's definitelygiven me even more to think
about. I mean, you guys tell uswhat you think, you know, what
are your thoughts if you'requeer and aviation like DM us,
you know, let us know what yourthoughts are. We'd love to hear
from you about it. But before wego, I think we should do another
(19:49):
segment, because I'm all aboutthe segments. That's something I
shouldn't do again, the singing,yeah, I won't do that again.
But. Um Yeah, we want to playanother segment called Ask a
flight attendant. And in thislittle series that we're going
to do, we're going to addressthe serious questions and also
(20:10):
the ridiculous questions,because as we all know as flight
attendants, we get asked some ofthese same questions about our
job and our lifestyle over andover and over again. And some of
them are ridiculous, and some ofthem it's a very logical
question, and we're here toanswer and answer your
questions. So yeah, what is ourquestion of the day? Do you just
(20:33):
turn around and go right back?
They love asking us thisquestion. Passengers just I
think that they think we live onthe airplane.
Andrew (20:42):
That's my that's my problem with this question. Not
that i i I want to be like, asksmarter questions truly, but I
feel like in the way thatquestion is phrased, there's an
assumption that live on theairplane, and I just run back
and forth between Philly andAkron all day, right?
Rich (21:02):
And people will like, it doesn't matter the length of the
fight. People will think like,Oh, so you're just doing this
back and forth all day. And it'slike, I'm working a fight from
LA to London. There's no backand forth all day. That fight
takes all day. It's just we haveto sleep and get off and shower
and eat and do things likenormal people eventually. But I
mean it whether it's Philly toAkron or it's like London to La
(21:26):
they always ask this question,how many times you doing this
today?
Andrew (21:29):
Yeah, I also the sometimes the fight only
operates once a day. There is nolike time today, right? Because
you got on the plane gripingabout the fact that you had to
leave a meeting early to makethis one flight today. No, we're
not just bouncing back andforth. In fairness, though, I
will say that our schedules arelike trigonometry. Trying to
(21:51):
explain to somebody that doesn'tdo it very often. I've been
doing it for almost 20 yearsnow, and I still have to explain
to my mom that no matter where Iland, the it looks the same. The
airplane looks the same, nomatter what city we put it in.
She's like, Oh, it's sobeautiful. You get to go to
Florida today, and I'm like, theairplane looks the same,
Rich (22:12):
yeah. And Mom, if you're listening, a turn is what we
call when you go from one cityto another city, turn around and
go back. It's a turn. It's justa little turn. There's one there
and one back. And that's what wemean when we say turn. So if you
hear us using that phrase, it'susually on a one day trip, but
sometimes they're attached tomulti day trips as well. But a
(22:34):
turn is just going somewhere andcoming right back. We don't even
get off the plane or anything,right? And yeah, I know it's
funny. We love our moms, but itis. I've been doing it 11 years.
You've been doing it 2121 years.
It's insane. I can't believe youjust submitted that public but,
yeah, we, you know, we're alwaysexplaining this to them. It's
(22:55):
like, I'll tell my mom doing,you know, a Cancun turn or
something, and she's like, Oh,beautiful. And she'll look up
the weather and it's 90 degreesand it's so sweet. And she's
like, that'll be nice. And I'mlike, Mom, it's a turn. We don't
we don't even get off the plane.
But yeah, so when people ask us,do you turn around and go right
back? In some cases, yes, we do.
But also in other cases, we'rebouncing all over the place, or
(23:18):
we're just doing one flight.
Just
Andrew (23:21):
sit on this plane all day long, right? They do require
that we have rest and right foodand things sometimes, yeah,
sometimes, but yeah,
Rich (23:30):
keep your questions coming. We love answering them,
and we some days they're funny,some days they're serious, but
there are a lot of questionsabout flight attendant life, and
we are here to answer them.
That's why we're here for that'swhat we're here for. So join us
next time for more humor, heartand stories from the beverage
cart. This episode was broughtto you by staff traveler, the
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You ever wondered what your flight attendants are
really talking about behind thegalley curtain? Welcome
Andrew (00:06):
to Two guys on a plane.
Your go to podcast for aninsider look at flight attendant
life.
Rich (00:11):
We're your hosts, rich and Drew, and we're here to tell you
what really goes on at 35,000feet.
Andrew (00:16):
So sit back, relax.
We're ready for takeoff. Welcomeback to two guys on a plane.
Today, we are going to talkabout being queer in aviation.
One of the biggest questionsthat we get asked on the regular
is, why are so many flightattendants gay? And so we are
gonna talk about it today. Yeah,
Rich (00:38):
we're excited to be back here today talking about being
queer in aviation, I feel likeit's such an interesting topic,
because people always ask that,and it all started with the
stereotypical gay male, sassyflight attendant, but I feel
like that was rooted insomething, you know, obviously
there was some truth to that,But it's definitely evolved over
(01:01):
time. But I remember I was doingan interview with some media
outlet a couple years back, andthey asked me this question, but
in like a not like a fun like,gosh, all these flight
attendants are gay kind of way,but in almost like an insulting
kind of way, like they wereinsinuating that it was a bad
(01:22):
thing. And that's what reallyprompted me to start thinking
about this subject, because it'slike, no, it's not a bad thing.
It's a cool thing. I think it'sawesome that so many LGBTQ plus
people come to the aviationworld and really just feel like
I can be myself here,
Andrew (01:40):
yeah, but before we really dive into the topic,
just, just so everyone is aware,Rich is my husband. We are gay,
two guys on a plane. We thoughtit would give it away, but it
doesn't really. So it's a verycase. There's any questions out
there, Rich is my husband. Weare
Rich (01:55):
always the people don't realize we're married, and we're
like, there's like, a rainbow onour Instagram account we post
our wedding photos, I don'tknow, but yes. So
Andrew (02:05):
most of this conversation is going to be from
our personal experiences on thisissue. So yeah, I remember when
this happened to you, becauseyou we started talking about it
because it made for I think itkind of bothered you. I do know
that it bothered you the waythat it came about. The question
came about from the person thatyou were discussing it with, and
(02:30):
then it kind of started a dialogfor us. Because, I mean,
truthfully, I mean, yes, thereis an appearance that most
flight attendants, particularlymale, are gay. I don't think
that's the truth, but what Imean, I know it's not, but
Rich (02:47):
I can say for sure I've definitely met a straight male
flight attendant. They're outthere.
Andrew (02:53):
They are out there.
We're friends with the viewers.
Rich (02:55):
We are, we are. But yeah, no, all jokes aside, I really, I
just think that it's always beenone of those jobs where you live
so many years as a queer personin the closet, and you just feel
like you can't really beyourself, and you're trapped,
you know, physically andmetaphorically, in this place
(03:18):
where you grew up, where maybeyou're not accepted for who you
are, and maybe there's a biggerworld out there. And I think the
flight attendant job reallylends to queer people, because
you spend so long hiding who youare and not getting out there.
And the opportunity to nowexplore the world, meet new
people, meet people from allwalks of life. It just, it's
(03:39):
really enticing. I think itreally draws people, you know,
kind of out of their shell andout of the closet, so to speak,
and really just lets them openup and come as they are
unapologetically,
Andrew (03:52):
yeah, and I think the anonymity of it really is
probably the biggest draw. Idon't think I knew it when I
started, but when you firststart flying, you realize very
quickly that you're never flyingwith the same people like your
coworkers, are never the same.
So on a monthly basis, you'veflown with 30 different people,
right, right? And so you justget to be your biggest, loudest
(04:15):
self in you know, coming from alittle backstory, I came I lived
in, I grew up in a small town,so I think that, you know, you
deal with the pressures oftrying to figure out your
identity, and then you get to aplace, you finally pick your
career, you get a job. I was 20when I started flying, so I was
(04:37):
fresh out of college, and I justfinally felt free, right?
Because you're flying to placeswhere it's acceptable to be gay.
You're flying with people whoare accepting of the fact that
you are gay, and even if they'renot, they're not telling you
that, and if they did, tell youthat, you only had to spend
what, two days with them, threedays. With them, and then you
(04:59):
may never see that person again.
So there is some freedom in justfinally being able to let down
your own personal guard andbreathe a little bit because the
passengers, I mean, don't care.
I mean, they're there for a goodtime. So if you you know, I
mean, as gay flight attendants,I think we use the demo as our
(05:20):
own personal little fashion
Rich (05:23):
show, a little runway auction, right? I think we were
joking about
Andrew (05:26):
it last night, just Jack 2002
Rich (05:29):
Yeah, it definitely isn't.
It's, it's almost like, youknow, we come out to people in
our lives, family, friends,whoever, inevitably, someone is
not supportive, right? Someoneis always saying, I don't
approve of this. I don't approveof who you are, whatever the
case may be, and it's almostlike this is meeting all these
new crew members and passengers.
(05:52):
It's like a new way to come outagain and feel maybe even
validated about who you are, andmaybe feel seen and appreciated
in ways that you haven't been inyour life.
Andrew (06:01):
But I think that was the good thing for me, is because I
didn't have to keep coming out,right, right? Because the
assumption was already there.
The assumption is that I am amale on a flight attendant, so I
am gay, so I didn't have toanswer those questions anymore,
right? I could just exist and beme, and, you know, for the most
part, safely be me, right?
Rich (06:22):
Yeah. I do feel like, I mean, there are obviously
exceptions to the rule, as thereare in any case, but I do feel
like, in general, there's nosurprise. You know you if you're
a male and you say my boyfriend,or if you're you know female and
say, my girlfriend, or whoeveryou're dating, whatever the case
(06:44):
may be, no one goes, oh, like,no one turns their head and and
is, like, makes it any sort ofuncomfortability there. It's
just normal. Like, it's it'snormal, it's casual, and it It's
freeing to feel normal andcasual when you have, maybe
haven't been growing up or inyour other areas of your life?
Andrew (07:04):
Yeah, I 100% agree, and particularly with, like, working
on the airplane. And I thinkthere's the added layer of the
travel part, right? Becausewe're going to layover, so
you're bidding layovers in newand exciting cities, like, I've
never been to San Francisco. Igot to San Francisco, and I was
like, this is the gayest placeI've ever been. This is so fun.
(07:24):
Yeah,
Rich (07:25):
yeah. I mean, it's, it's crazy, like, there, it's cliche,
but there really is a big mindworld out there. And, like, even
growing up, you know, I grew upin Boston and a relatively
liberal family that was mostlyvery supportive, give or take a
couple people. But, you know, Iwent to a Catholic school, and
Catholic school was very muchlike, Nope, you can't have a gay
straight alliance. You can'tbring your boyfriend to prom.
(07:48):
Like, there was a lot ofpushback in some areas of my
life, but I always thought, Oh,I'm in this, like, liberal
bubble, and then you get outinto the world and you're like,
there are people just living soproudly, and it's so inspiring
to see that. And I want to be apart of that life. I don't want
to feel like what I'm doing isnot okay or not normal, like I
want to, I want to feel okay.
And, yeah, it's just interestingto think about that. And then,
(08:14):
you know, I feel like there'ssome anonymity to being a flight
attendant, you know, like youwere saying about meeting
different crew members each andevery day, you can have a three
day trip and just be whoever,and come back to work next week
and be a totally differentperson. Not to say that you
should have multiplepersonalities, but, I mean, it
(08:35):
just kind of is nice that youdon't really have to think about
that. You don't have to answerfor yourself. You know you can
fly with people and not reallycare what they think about your
personal life. You can fly withsomeone who might be homophobic
or transphobic and who mightthink you know you shouldn't
wear this uniform if you're thisgender or whatever the case may
(08:58):
be, those close mindedprinciples, you can push back on
them in the moment. You can feelsome type of way about it, but
then you can kind of move onfrom that and and just keep
living your life for you. Yes,
Andrew (09:12):
I 100% agree. I also looking back on it, though. I
mean, there, there is kind of adarker side to all of this too.
Like, sometimes I feel like,because of the anonymity, I
traded one closet for anotherbecause you still don't let
people like, really get to knowyou, right? So while you're you
know out being your loud, proudself, you're still not allowing
(09:36):
people in to get to know you,that anonymity is kind of a
closet all on its own until youcan, like, figure, Figure out
how to to meld your queernessand your career.
Rich (09:48):
Yeah, it can be isolating, too, in those moments where you
know you're on a trip, and maybeyou're on a trip with people who
aren't super supportive of you,or you know they even vibe or
click. With, and now you're onthis three day, four day trip,
stuck with somebody, and it'slike, I don't know. I don't know
about this, right? I don't knowif I can do this for for another
(10:10):
day. But we were
Andrew (10:12):
talking to friends about it the other day too, though,
and it's not just gay menanymore. I mean, I think the
stereotype starts, I think thestereotype starts with men, but
I think that, I mean, we werehaving a conversation with
friends about it, and they werelike, I'm seeing more lesbians
out. And is that a new trend? Isthat something you guys are
seeing, it's evolving, for sure,yep, but lesbians have always
(10:35):
existed in aviation. It's notjust men. But I think because of
our such rigid uniform rules, Ithink it was easier for women to
blend right because the highheels, the pantyhose, the
makeup, the hair, like all of itare our rules are so rigid that
you you had to kind of but nowthat we're entering a new age
(10:58):
where our uniform policies arerelaxing and and companies are
finding that it's important forpeople to dress in a way that
makes them most comfortable. Ithink we're seeing a lot more
feminine presenting men, and Ithink we're seeing more
masculine presenting women onthe planes. And I so I think it
makes it easier to say there'smore lesbians, but I think, I
(11:21):
think they've always been withus. Yeah,
Rich (11:23):
I think that's, I mean, that's a conversation people are
having in general, outside ofthe industry as well, too, where
people are like, Oh, there'smore gay people now than there's
ever been. And it's like, no,it's just that we're starting to
be ourselves, loud and proud andout about it. And I think that
it's just people aren't willingto be in the closet anymore. You
know, people are that partstarting to realize and starting
(11:45):
to accept that it's okay to begay, it's okay to be a lesbian,
it's okay to be trans, it's okayto be non binary, it's okay to
be whatever version of yourselfthat you want to be, that you
are in your core. And I think,you know, obviously the
airlines, some are slower thanothers with progressing on this
issue, but I think therelaxation of some of our very
(12:07):
gender stereotypical uniformguidelines are really making an
impact, because people canchoose whatever uniform they're
comfortable wearing, and that'sreally lending to people just
feeling more free andcomfortable at work. And props
to the airlines that are doing agood job with this, and shame on
(12:28):
you the ones that are not doinga good job on this. Because, you
know, I think, I think this isreally helping the queer
community at work well.
Andrew (12:37):
And also, if you're allowed to show up as your most
full, authentic self, you'regoing to do a better job if you
feel like you're repressing orhiding something. I mean, you're
not going to do a good job
Rich (12:49):
at work. No, exactly. And our job is critical. I mean, our
safety responsibilities, ourservice responsibilities. You've
got 200 passengers on this planethat are, you know, their lives
are our job to keep safe at thatpoint, and if we don't feel safe
in ourselves and in our uniformand what we're wearing, and you
know, in our life, it's, we'renot going to perform our duties
(13:11):
well. So, yeah, I really thinkit has a ripple effect on the
individual talking
Andrew (13:17):
about being gay in aviation to uniforms. It's, it's
a quick turn.
Rich (13:21):
I mean, I think it's important. I think it's a very
important thing to discuss. Imean, physical and mental and
emotional all need to be alignedin order for someone to feel
comfortable with who they are,yeah, and yeah. It's been really
cool to see our industry growand change in a positive
(13:43):
direction. I mean, don't get mewrong, we definitely have
coworkers out there who are noton board with that. One of my
favorite things about our flightattendant Friday series, going
back to that, is that we've beenable to feature multiple people
that are wearing the uniformthat met like maybe not
traditionally assigned withtheir gender, they're wearing a
(14:03):
comfortable a collection that'scomfortable for them, and being
able to put that out there. Andwhile yes, there are negative
comments and pushback, it's sobeautiful to see people just
being themselves, 110%unapologetically. And it's so
inspiring because I just thinkabout even like in my own
personal life, you know, as akid, like being a little gay boy
(14:26):
running around with Barbies andloving pink, like, yeah, a
little stereotypical, but beingmade fun of for that by everyone
you meet, including your ownfamily, it's hurtful, right? And
so to see people now justleaning in to who they are and
expressing themselves so openlylike it makes me emotional, it
makes me hopeful that there isgood in the world and that we're
(14:49):
going to continue in thisdirection, even in the dark
times that we are experiencingin life. Right? In
Andrew (14:56):
case, this is your first episode, the flight attendant
Friday that rich referenced.
That's. A series we do on ourInstagram page where we
highlight different flightattendants once a week, once a
month, once a
Rich (15:07):
week. I do the posting, in case anyone was wondering,
Andrew (15:13):
but our flight attendant Friday is active, flight
attendants who submit storiesand then we share their we share
their stories on our Instagram.
Yeah, agree wholeheartedly. Likethat has been one of my favorite
parts of that series, as seeingand allowing people to be them
for their full, authentic selvesand see how that is translating
out onto the line. Because thesame like growing up in a small
(15:34):
town things that you don'treally have the words or the
ability to say, and no one'steaching you that either, but
that to then, you know, seepeople out just being 100%
themselves, it makes you want tofigure out who you are, so you
can be yourself too, yeah, whichis, honestly what I love about
aviation. You know, we talkedabout the good and the bad with
(15:56):
your crews. I don't think we'vetouched enough on travel and
culture. Being queer like thatwas one of the biggest things
for me. You know, as a baby,little gay, when I started this
job, I mean, it wasn't justwithin the US though. I mean, we
kind of giggled about going toSan Francisco for the first
time, but I just think the worldis so I mean, all the different
(16:19):
cultures and all the differentways that humans are celebrated,
and then you feel like you'retrapped in this little box, and
you get out somewhere in Europe,and you're like, Oh, this is
fun,
Rich (16:32):
yeah, I mean, and you meet people, and you're like, I
didn't even know living yourlife this way was an option, you
know? Like, you just get stuckin your own little bubble. And I
think, I think that really helpsqueer people see, like your
life, that you grew up in, thatmaybe made you feel stuck or
trapped or restricted to being acertain type of way. I think
(16:56):
this job, you go out and, likeyou said, you see all these
other people in these cultures,in these cities that embrace
being queer or embrace religionor embrace other cultures, or
whatever the case may be, andyou think, Well, gosh, this is a
choice. I don't have to live mylife this way. I can choose my
own life, choose my own path andreally just be myself in
(17:17):
whatever version that is, yeah,
Andrew (17:19):
or seeing people who are like religions, who are inviting
other cultures who like inviteyour queer into their religion,
instead of, you know, trying tokeep it separate or trying to
condemn you for it like, I thinkthat was the most eye opening
thing for me was that there arereligions in the world where
everyone is celebrated, you areallowed to just be I think
(17:40):
that's beautiful, becausegrowing up, you did, I mean, I
didn't think I'd see that everanywhere. No
Rich (17:48):
no. Seeing that kind of just acceptance on a whole new
level is not something I wouldhave ever imagined would have
been in our lifetime, right? Imean, like you were making fun
of, you know, just jack fromWill and Grace. And it's like,
when we were growing up, thatwas kind of it. These, like, two
(18:10):
white gay guys on TV, and we'relike, okay, cool representation.
We're there. Queer people are onTV, but like, are we always
going to be reduced tostereotypes like being a male
flight attendant, you know, orreading Jack Mary a male flight
Unknown (18:25):
attendant.
Rich (18:26):
Oh, my God, did he Yeah, oh, he
Unknown (18:29):
was right. Did he marry up a day into the series?
Rich (18:33):
He definitely dated a flight attendant at least, or
maybe the one in the end, didn'tthey get married in the airport?
His name
Unknown (18:40):
was someone answered
Rich (18:42):
this question for us.
Yeah. Now we need to go on alittle grace binge. Um, but
yeah, I just it's cool to seeall of that evolve and just not
be boiled down to a stereotypeand what that has become today.
It's
Andrew (18:56):
truly my favorite part of being a flight attendant is
the acceptance that you feelfrom literally everyone, yeah,
Rich (19:05):
yeah, people that in any other circumstance would
probably some of them wouldscoff or be judgmental about it,
but it's like, Hey, you're crew,I'm crew. You live your life, I
live my life Cool.
Andrew (19:22):
Now, let's go grab some drinks and enjoy this layover.
Right? Exactly,
Rich (19:26):
right. Well, I think this has been a great conversation
about this, and it's definitelygiven me even more to think
about. I mean, you guys tell uswhat you think, you know, what
are your thoughts if you'requeer and aviation like DM us,
you know, let us know what yourthoughts are. We'd love to hear
from you about it. But before wego, I think we should do another
(19:49):
segment, because I'm all aboutthe segments. That's something I
shouldn't do again, the singing,yeah, I won't do that again.
But. Um Yeah, we want to playanother segment called Ask a
flight attendant. And in thislittle series that we're going
to do, we're going to addressthe serious questions and also
(20:10):
the ridiculous questions,because as we all know as flight
attendants, we get asked some ofthese same questions about our
job and our lifestyle over andover and over again. And some of
them are ridiculous, and some ofthem it's a very logical
question, and we're here toanswer and answer your
questions. So yeah, what is ourquestion of the day? Do you just
(20:33):
turn around and go right back?
They love asking us thisquestion. Passengers just I
think that they think we live onthe airplane.
Andrew (20:42):
That's my that's my problem with this question. Not
that i i I want to be like, asksmarter questions truly, but I
feel like in the way thatquestion is phrased, there's an
assumption that live on theairplane, and I just run back
and forth between Philly andAkron all day, right?
Rich (21:02):
And people will like, it doesn't matter the length of the
fight. People will think like,Oh, so you're just doing this
back and forth all day. And it'slike, I'm working a fight from
LA to London. There's no backand forth all day. That fight
takes all day. It's just we haveto sleep and get off and shower
and eat and do things likenormal people eventually. But I
mean it whether it's Philly toAkron or it's like London to La
(21:26):
they always ask this question,how many times you doing this
today?
Andrew (21:29):
Yeah, I also the sometimes the fight only
operates once a day. There is nolike time today, right? Because
you got on the plane gripingabout the fact that you had to
leave a meeting early to makethis one flight today. No, we're
not just bouncing back andforth. In fairness, though, I
will say that our schedules arelike trigonometry. Trying to
(21:51):
explain to somebody that doesn'tdo it very often. I've been
doing it for almost 20 yearsnow, and I still have to explain
to my mom that no matter where Iland, the it looks the same. The
airplane looks the same, nomatter what city we put it in.
She's like, Oh, it's sobeautiful. You get to go to
Florida today, and I'm like, theairplane looks the same,
Rich (22:12):
yeah. And Mom, if you're listening, a turn is what we
call when you go from one cityto another city, turn around and
go back. It's a turn. It's justa little turn. There's one there
and one back. And that's what wemean when we say turn. So if you
hear us using that phrase, it'susually on a one day trip, but
sometimes they're attached tomulti day trips as well. But a
(22:34):
turn is just going somewhere andcoming right back. We don't even
get off the plane or anything,right? And yeah, I know it's
funny. We love our moms, but itis. I've been doing it 11 years.
You've been doing it 2121 years.
It's insane. I can't believe youjust submitted that public but,
yeah, we, you know, we're alwaysexplaining this to them. It's
(22:55):
like, I'll tell my mom doing,you know, a Cancun turn or
something, and she's like, Oh,beautiful. And she'll look up
the weather and it's 90 degreesand it's so sweet. And she's
like, that'll be nice. And I'mlike, Mom, it's a turn. We don't
we don't even get off the plane.
But yeah, so when people ask us,do you turn around and go right
back? In some cases, yes, we do.
But also in other cases, we'rebouncing all over the place, or
(23:18):
we're just doing one flight.
Just
Andrew (23:21):
sit on this plane all day long, right? They do require
that we have rest and right foodand things sometimes, yeah,
sometimes, but yeah,
Rich (23:30):
keep your questions coming. We love answering them,
and we some days they're funny,some days they're serious, but
there are a lot of questionsabout flight attendant life, and
we are here to answer them.
That's why we're here for that'swhat we're here for. So join us
next time for more humor, heartand stories from the beverage
cart. This episode was broughtto you by staff traveler, the
(23:51):
number one non rev app if youtravel on standby tickets and
are looking to make your journeyeasy and stress free, check out
the staff traveler app in theApple App Store or Google Play
Store, visit stafftraveler.com/two guys to learn
more and sign up
Buzz Burbank (24:08):
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N, I, C, K, media.com you.
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