November 11, 2025 • 49 mins
In this special Veterans Day episode, we sit down with the incomparable Keturah Johnson—combat veteran, flight attendant, and International Vice President of AFA-CWA. As the first queer woman of color and veteran elected to serve in this powerful union role, Keturah shares her extraordinary journey from the tarmac to the battlefield to the picket lines. She opens up about her military service during “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” her fierce advocacy for trans rights, and the fight for visibility and equity in aviation.
This conversation is full of heart, truth, and power. We dive into what it means to wear the uniform—both in the military and in the skies—as a queer person of color, and how union activism is helping change the future of the flight attendant profession. Keturah brings receipts, realness, and the kind of candid insight that will leave you inspired (and maybe a little fired up). You don't want to miss this one.
Watch the full episode on YouTube
Episode Highlights:
[0:21] Introducing Keturah Johnson and why she’s the perfect Veterans Day guest
[1:20] That time Keturah met Joe Biden at the airport—aviators and all
[2:42] From catering planes to the National Guard—Keturah’s journey into the military
[5:00] Deployed to Afghanistan: surviving combat under “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”
[7:04] “Don’t clap for veterans—vote for them.” Keturah gets real about systemic neglect
[10:57] Growing up in Kenya and how that shaped her global worldview
[13:20] Losing her locks in the military and reclaiming identity through union activism
[21:57] Fighting for uniform choice and pushing back from day one
[24:22] Union leadership 101—stepping into power and demanding representation
[27:44] Why diverse leadership matters and the power of being unapologetically visible
[30:50] The importance of visibility through pins, pronouns, and showing up
[32:47] Becoming the first queer woman of color elected to high AFA office
[35:06] Dealing with respect and disrespect—how Keturah keeps going
[38:24] Speaking up at work: real advice for taking action and using your voice
[41:07] Building union power and the HRE committee’s biggest wins
[44:43] Advice to new flight attendants: wear your pin and speak up
[45:15] Keturah’s go-off moment—protect trans folks, respect veterans, and support women’s sports
[46:29] Cross-Checked lightning round—windo
Thoughts on this episode? Text us!
✈
This episode was brought to you by StaffTraveler, the #1 non-rev app! If you travel on standby and are looking to make your journey easy and stress-free, check out StaffTraveler for free in the Apple App Store or Google Play Store.
✈
Have a funny, wild, or heartwarming travel story from a flight that you’re dying to share with us? Submit your story at the link below and we could feature your story on an upcoming episode of the show!
Submit Your 'Galley Gossip' Story
✈
We love people and we love to travel... no, seriously! Want to join us on one of our upcoming group trips? Check out the link below for current trips!
✈
We couldn’t do it without you! As independent podcasters, we rely on audience support to keep our show going. Join our community at the link below for exclusive content, early access, behind-the-scenes footage, and more!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich (00:02):
Ever wondered what your flight attendants are really
talking about behind the galleycurtain?
Andrew (00:06):
Welcome to Two guys on a plane. Your go to podcast for an
insider look at flight attendantlife.
Rich (00:11):
We're your hosts, rich and Drew, and we're here to tell you
what really goes on at 35,000feet.
Andrew (00:16):
So sit back, relax.
We're ready for takeoff.
Rich (00:21):
All right, everybody, today is Veterans Day, and we
are so excited to have a veryspecial guest with us in studio
to honor veterans day. Today'sguest is katura Johnson,
international, Vice President ofAFA CWA. Ketura is a combat
veteran, a flight attendant, aunion leader and a fierce
advocate for equity, inclusionand trans rights, she made
(00:42):
history as the first queer womanof color and combat veteran
elected to serve in her AFA CWArole in our conversation today,
we'll explore her journey frommilitary service to aviation and
what it's like to be a queerperson of color in union
leadership.
Andrew (00:57):
Welcome couture, we're so excited to have you here
today and to just have a greatconversation with you, normally,
we start off talking about ourday or our week or some crazy
thing that's happened to us. Sowe want to start with you. Tell
us your like, most memorablepassenger experience or some
wild flight that you've hadsomething crazy that happened to
(01:18):
you while you were working as aflight attendant.
Kenturah Johnson (01:20):
Okay, well, there is this time that I
actually met Joe Biden in theairport. I was I casual, was
walking back from dropping off afriend at a gate, and I was
walking and he had just comethrough security, and his
aviators on, and he was on thecarts that they no longer allow
enough terminal. And I justlike, I don't know why, but,
(01:41):
like, I don't know why, butlike, in a British accent, was
like, Excuse me, so may I and hesaid, sure. He took off his
aviators and, like, his staffare, like, leaned down now, now
I get it out and, like, I thinkwe took a selfie. And I was
like, Holy fuck. And I'm like,my FA pin on, and like, walk to
the gate. I was like, fuck yeah,
Andrew (01:58):
that's amazing. Love this. I He's here a lot, I
think, or was here a lot. Imean, I forget that he lives so
close to us here in Philly. Hewas
Kenturah Johnson (02:06):
eating at a non union restaurant the other
day. Oh, call him out for it.
Rich (02:13):
Philly is a union town, correct? So you do have to call
him out for that. That's anamazing story. I love this. I
love that you met him. So beforeall of your crazy aviation
adventures and stories, yourcareer started on the ground.
Well, yeah, on the ground,before aviation, you were in the
military. So take us back kindof to the beginning about you
(02:37):
know who you are, where you'refrom, and then how you got into
military and all that beforeaviation, yeah.
Kenturah Johnson (02:42):
So I actually started a lot of people to know
this with LSU sky chefscaterplanes. So actually, come
from United here, local 274which is Philadelphia, hotel
workers and, like, I justneeded, like, a change, I guess,
and so I joined the militarybecause I don't know, I needed
something to do with somethingthat, like, no one could tell
you that you had to do it. Likemy parents, that's the first
(03:04):
question they asked you. Like,Didn't anyone make you come
here? Like, no, you have to signyour fucking papers, right? So
yes, I was like, a thing that Icould do for myself. And so,
like, I went through themilitary, I didn't know, like,
why really I wanted to do it,but it was like something that I
could challenge myself. And thenafter that, I started working at
the airport. I remember that Iwanted to be able to fly and
travel. So I grew up overseas inKenya for 17 years. A lot of
(03:25):
people don't know this. I wasadopted, actually, in Maryland,
well, in Pennsylvania, but,like, adopted. My parents are
doctors and missionaries, and sothey felt it was God's call,
uprooted us, moved us to Kenya.
And so, like, that's where I,like, got my love of travel
from. And so when I moved backto the States, I always knew
that I always knew that I wantedto be able to travel and, like,
not pay for it, right? So Ialways try to get into the
airline industry. However Icould the best perk. And so I
(03:47):
ended up like LSU sky chefs toget in. And then I started
working as a ramp agent. Andthen as a ramp agent, I feel
getting older now. Oh my gosh,the timeline is getting fun. I
Oh, but then there was somemilitary stuff. I was in the
National Guard, so like, oneweek in a month, two weeks in
the summertime. And then while Iwas at Drexel, going to school,
(04:10):
I got out of the military, okay?
And then that's when, like, myaviation started taking off.
Rich (04:19):
Okay, amazing. What inspired you or motivated you to
join the military in the firstplace?
Kenturah Johnson (04:26):
I don't know.
I just was like, why not? Myparents were still back in
Kenya, okay, at the time. Idon't know. I grew up overseas
in Kenya, so, like, thingsdidn't make sense back Yeah, and
like, the routine, I don't know.
Maybe I needed some structure,maybe some discipline.
Rich (04:42):
Yeah, you can all use a little discipline, but I got it
totally understand that. Whatwas your experience in combat
like? I mean, I can't imagineanything about it. So what? What
was that like for those of uswho don't have any military.
Kenturah Johnson (05:00):
Or Yeah. So part of like, being in the
National Guard, the joke is,like, okay, it's not when you
go, it's not where you go, it'swhen you go. There's usually,
like, right after training to bedeployed, right? So I deployed
to Afghanistan in 2010 and itwas wild. I remember, like,
being on the ground and like,oh, people are really actively
trying to kill you. And then Iwas there under, don't ask,
(05:20):
don't tell. And I was actuallyboots on the ground when it was
repealed. So I remember, like, Ibought a bunch of rainbow flags
and patches for all the gays.
Yeah, I knew that were gay, andso I don't know it's crazy to
fight in a war that you're like,What the fuck are we doing here?
It's crazy to watch your friendsget fucking killed over
bullshit. It's crazy to watch,like families, like, lose loved
ones. Yeah, it's just, it'sfucked up. I mean, looking back
(05:46):
now and knowing what's going onin the world, I even said to
someone, if I was still in themilitary right now, oh my god, I
would be, like, revolting fromwithin. Like I would be, yeah,
we'd be unionizing. Well,
Rich (05:59):
that's what's crazy for sure, like, we all thought it
was fucked up. Then, you know,it's like, now we look at where
we are today, and it's like,1000 times more intense and more
insane, yeah, and
Andrew (06:09):
particularly with all the progress we had made and
celebrations we were doing,you're talking about, don't ask,
don't tell, being repealed.
Like, I had to be freeing to,like, Finally, be able to be
yourself and represent yourversion of America in the army,
right? Yes. And now we're eventaking that away. Basically, I
mean,
Kenturah Johnson (06:27):
no, they are.
It's, they're getting transright on our human rights and
equity call. We just had apresentation talking about,
like, the strip of veteransrights and, like, the ban on
trans rights and things likethat. And how it's like this,
just like, the reveal justhappened. Like, this is, like,
it pretty recent history, very,very recent history to, like,
have to go back. So, like, Yeah,it's crazy that, like, I fought
(06:47):
for our country, and like,people can't see me. You know
what I mean? Like, it's, it'sfucking, it's, it's crazy.
That's why I always tell people,like, Don't clap for veterans.
Vote for veterans. Like, fuckingMarc veterans, yeah, there you
go. Like, stop fucking justclapping for us,
Rich (07:04):
right? Like, back up your this thought of, okay, we
support veterans. Like, backthat up with something with your
actions, rather than just yourwords. Fucking over absolutely
100% 2025, we're done. We'vemoved on. If you're not showing
up and doing something about it,shut up exactly.
Kenturah Johnson (07:21):
Yes, and use your privileges power all the
time. Yeah. What can I do?
There's so many things that youcan do, right? You know what I
mean? So,
Rich (07:27):
so I feel like back then you were probably there was some
sense of pride being in themilitary and serving the country
to some degree, right? Maybe,yeah. But now not so much. I
feel like it must be really hardfor people in the military now
to continue serving, right?
Kenturah Johnson (07:44):
No, I mean, there's still people who
actively want to serve. Like,everyone has a job. You know
what? I mean, we might not agreewith what the job is, but like,
we should have pride in the joband be respected to do our job.
And like, that's how you knowtrans folks in the military now,
like, they're trans, they'requeer, they want to be able to
do their job. Yeah, marriedthings that we want is funny,
right, correct, right? And it'sand it's being stripped away,
and it's fucked up. And while,yes, they have a pride, some
(08:07):
people that's their choice.
Their choice is to go into themilitary, yeah? And so
Andrew (08:12):
because your gender identity, your sexuality, those
things don't change who you areas a human and whether or not
you can do the job, yeah, thatyou like signed up to do, and
it's just wild to me that that'staken away from people who
actively want to support andlike, protect our country and
(08:32):
have for so many years, and whohave done it better than like so
many other people that are thereand with so much more integrity,
and are now being told that notonly they can they not do their
job, but you don't get yourhealth benefits, you don't get
your retirement benefits. Like,all of that is taken away for
what? For what?
Kenturah Johnson (09:52):
No, I remember when I first got in and we do
our physicals and, like, Iremember, like, the doctor
checking to make sure that I wasfemale. Like, that's like, Come
Yes, that's the type of shit.
Yes, I remember that
Andrew (10:06):
2010 was not that long ago. This should not
Rich (10:10):
it's just it's feels so cold and inhumane to treat
somebody like that. You know,like to be that up close and
personal, and to feel like youhave the right to make those
judgments or check those thingson a person, like it's but,
Kenturah Johnson (10:27):
you know, it's the military, and we're the
guinea pigs. And so they say, wesign up and do, like, a lot of
you know, we I remember getting,like, the first, like, Anthrax
sniff of, you know what I mean,like, yeah, we line us up and do
that shit.
Rich (10:41):
Yeah, they made you guys test anthrax,
Kenturah Johnson (10:44):
yeah? Like, we test a lot of shit. Like, it's
the military. Wow, you signpapers. And that's why I'm like,
Yeah, this is fucking crazy, andthat's why, like, now I say
whatever the fuck I want,because I am a combat veteran,
right? Yeah, whatever I'veearned my right? Yeah, right,
yeah. But, like, They line usup, like, Oh, we're gonna.
Remember they said we're gonnatry it out. This new thing came
out. It was, like, the first,like, the anthrax or something,
(11:07):
or maybe it was, I don't know,anthrax or flu or whatever.
We're guinea pigs. I can't sayno,
Andrew (11:12):
I'm not often speechless, but I'm like,
literally, I don't, I don't evenknow where to go right now,
yeah, like, gobsmacked.
Rich (11:19):
I mean, that's you hear stories about things. And, you
know, as people who aren't inthe military, we can only
imagine what some of theseexperiences are like. And it's
like, it might be worse than wethought. Everyone
Kenturah Johnson (11:30):
has a different I'm like, I was, I was
in the army. I know the Marinesdo things differently, right?
The air man or air people dothink you know what I mean.
Like, everyone
Rich (11:38):
does their own there is their own little culture within
each branch of the military,
Kenturah Johnson (11:42):
our carriers have our own culture. You're
Rich (11:45):
not kidding about that.
Did those experiences like, howlooking back at it now? How did
that like shape your worldview?
Or like, what takeaways Do youhave from that time in your
life?
Kenturah Johnson (11:58):
I know growing up overseas definitely like
shaped my life, of course, ofseeing like, like, I went to
boarding school since I was fiveyears old, and so, like, I don't
know, taking it for granted forsure, just like, little things,
Yeah, I don't know.
Andrew (12:20):
Well, I'm still stuck on No, my brain is not. My brain
has not caught up from you beinga guinea pig in the military.
This is wild to me, and I don'tknow how those sort of things. I
mean, you mentioned it, you feellike you have a right to just be
like, fuck off to everybody atthis point. But there's no way
that that, I mean, doesn'tchange your worldview. I mean,
(12:44):
it can't your politicalaffiliations, like all of it, it
has to shape.
Kenturah Johnson (12:49):
And so I guess, like, now, like, lip
service is dead. I like, my eyesare open to people who, like,
say things, actions, you know,really need to be backing up
people's words. You know what Imean. And like, just being more
awake to like, what's going on.
I remember my first hearing thatI went to in DC, and I'm like,
Oh, this is what's happening.
(13:09):
This is how people are wastingour fucking time and our money.
Naughty. Have no fucking ideawhat's going on. No idea. I was
like, Oh, God, what the fuckyeah, what is happening?
Andrew (13:23):
Do you find any intersection between your
military life?
Rich (13:27):
Are there any things about military life that you feel like
kind of relate to being in thequeer community?
Kenturah Johnson (13:34):
Yeah, I feel like there's a camaraderie like
I feel like queers have and likeso all of the queer people that
I know in the military, like Italked to on a daily basis,
like, those are my people,right? Philly, they're around.
We stay in touch with eachother. So, but I feel like I was
always out in the military. Iwas in the closet because I
(13:59):
whatever. But like I was out, Iwas accepted. And everybody
knew. Like, everyone knew, Okay,I had to cut my hair. I had
locks, and I had to cut my hair.
My drill size made me cut myhair.
Andrew (14:07):
I've heard this story, and I it really is, I think you
were talking about it recentlyat one of our board meetings,
and I was literally in tears foryou. Yeah, I can't imagine,
like, the pain of that,
Kenturah Johnson (14:21):
yeah, I mean, hair grows back. There's a song,
I am not my hair. Still,
Andrew (14:26):
you're not. But like, so much of our identity is built
into like, who we choose torepresent ourselves as, like,
that's hair, that's color,that's clothes like, that's
there's so many things that arebuilt into that. And to have
that piece like, forced awayfrom you is traumatizing,
Kenturah Johnson (14:42):
yeah, for sure. And like, this is the
second time growing my locks.
And I remember, like, Okay, youstripped me down. And like, I'll
build up in the military. Butthese are also things that I
fight for now. Is like, peoplecan wear whatever hair that they
want. You know what I mean,like, Crown act what you know
what I mean, like dressinghowever you want, and things
like that. You know, themilitary, everyone has the same
uniform, you know, right? And Iremember American Airlines, we
did for a while at Piedmont, wedid for a while, and so they
(15:06):
recently changed it. So likegate agents and like females and
males are different, but before,everything was just the same,
and you couldn't tell. And soit's crazy that, like you
Andrew (15:18):
Yeah, we had this conversation a while back about
uniforms and like, just showingup comfortably who you are.
Like, it doesn't matter if Ichoose to wear a full female,
full male mix or match. Like thething, I show up better and I
represent my company better if Ifeel comfortable in my own skin,
(15:38):
and part of that is if I want towear a scarf, because it looks
better on me and I feel betterlike that's not even like a
queer thing. Like, just let aman wear a scarf if he wants to
tie an ass off. It makes himfeel better than like, choking
up in a tie. Let him wear that.
It does. It shouldn't matter, aslong as I show up fully myself
and happy and present at worklike the whole uniform thing.
(15:59):
Really troubles us, because it'sstill so gendered to this day.
Oh, and I know we're allfighting against it. I mean, I
know I am every day at myairline. I am fighting against
these gender norms every day,because it doesn't matter, show
up, be happy, be healthy.
Kenturah Johnson (16:14):
No, for sure, and I'm a big like, show up,
however, like, how I show up ishow I show up. The reason that
so I wear the men's uniform atmy airline. And the reason that
I do that is because when we gotthe new collection, females had
to wear scarves before youdidn't have to. And I'm like, I
will not wear a scarf, right?
And also, like, I look fly in atie, so
Rich (16:39):
come on, it just shouldn't be that complicated. Like, you
should just be able to wear whatyou feel comfortable wearing,
these options, and then let medecide what I feel comfortable
wearing. You know, it's like
Andrew (16:50):
cardigan, it's a blazer, and it's a pair of pants. Like,
how you put them togethershouldn't matter.
Rich (16:55):
Shouldn't matter. Like, we have airline guidelines, uniform
guidelines. We're all fine toadhere to that. We'll follow
your little rules, but like yougot to let us be ourselves
within those guidelines, sure.
So military life stopped. Thatdid you go back to Drexel at
that
Kenturah Johnson (17:13):
point? Yeah, so I know I didn't, but I used
the money to go to Drexel.
Gotcha, I like taking advantageof the benefits.
Rich (17:22):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you went
through, you might as well andtell your friends yeah, and then
went back to airline life as a
Kenturah Johnson (17:33):
ramp agent, yeah, yeah. What was that like?
It's hard work. I remember whenwe were hired. It's like any
degree, like any elements, beprepared, you know what I mean?
And like, it's cold outside, itwas great. I worked on the ramp
for a few years, and then on myone year anniversary of being a
(17:56):
manager, because I became amanager, I went to the all call
for diploma flight attendant.
Oh, yeah, whatever. And I gothired. And then I started
become, I started flying. Yeah,that's kind of how, the how it
took off, nice.
Rich (18:12):
I assume you liked being a flight attendant more than being
Kenturah Johnson (18:15):
absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Rich (18:18):
They were. They work hard down there. I could, don't envy
them, especially on hard weatherdays, yeah, the heat of the
summer, the cold of the winter.
Kenturah Johnson (18:26):
But the thing about it is, like ramp agents
and like ground workers, theyhave so much responsibility,
right? People don't realize it.
Like, you're responsible for theloads to make sure the loads go
out correctly, and you have tomake sure that the counter, we
had the dashes right, and if youare in the binge, you know, I
mean, like, that's a liability,yeah? And like, people
understand, like, you're signingto make sure that every we're
safe, as well as flightattendants. Yeah, and the people
(18:47):
on there, and like, people don'tunderstand
Rich (18:51):
it's a huge safety responsibility on their part.
And yeah, I think people justthink, you know, they throw our
arm bags and that's all they do.
It's kind of like our job. It'slike people think we serve
drinks and that's it. Likepeople don't see the other
layers of safety and security tothese roles, and
Kenturah Johnson (19:05):
just being on the tarmac and the ramp, like,
there's been a lot of accidents,very unfortunate accidents, that
have happened.
Andrew (19:12):
So I worked at a regional, you know this. I
worked at a regional before theairline that I'm at now, and the
propeller jets, the small jets,it's, it's not, I mean, it's not
safe on any ramp, but like,those propellers do not make
life any safer for anyone outthere. No, they don't. And those
cargo bins are so much smaller.
Kenturah Johnson (19:32):
Crouching down, right? I
Andrew (19:35):
don't even like carrying my own bag through an airport,
let alone other people's like,100 million pound bags that
they're like, it's fine
Kenturah Johnson (19:41):
and it's not fine for everyone listening,
it's not fine. It's
Andrew (19:44):
not it's not. No,
Kenturah Johnson (19:46):
you're cheap.
Check your bag. Don't be cheap.
You know, your credit cardsallow two free bags. So, so
true. Handle it. Don't do it.
Rich (19:57):
So your early days of flying, what was that like? What
favorite trip memories oranything fun from flying?
Kenturah Johnson (20:04):
Oh my gosh. My early days of flying, I was
based in Roanoke, Virginia. Thead said, Philly. I was in
Roanoke. Funny how that works. Iwas in Roanoke with a crash pad
with like four other people. Andthen I learned I could call
reserve and like same Philly,you know? And I was like, Oh,
what is this, this flightattendant? What is this life? It
(20:27):
was rough. I gained a lot ofweight, like the flight
attendant 40, like the freshman50, or whatever. I gained a lot
of weight. Yeah, it's a realthing. Yeah, it was. I had a lot
of fun.
Andrew (20:38):
Though. Were you in a crash pad with other flight
attendants. Those are myfavorite.
Rich (20:44):
It wasn't my favorite. Why is that your favorite?
Andrew (20:48):
Well, I was being a smarter, like, first of all, Oh,
my favorite. I was like, I'mworried about you couldn't do
it. Sounds like my worstnightmare. I never did it. I had
a crash pad, but it was like aprivate room in someone else's
apartment. So I couldn't I.
Couldn't do it. But everyonethat had those, like, flight
attendant, they all have crazystories. And I'm like, How do
you do this?
Kenturah Johnson (21:07):
No, that's why. So, like, that was only
temporary when I had to bethere. Otherwise, I was in
Philadelphia, right? I had myown apartment from when I was a
manager, so, like, and then Imoved on my stuff to my parents
house. And then I, yeah, I just,you know, made it happen.
However, I made it happen. Howold were
Andrew (21:24):
you when you started flying 2008
Kenturah Johnson (21:28):
years ago?
Maybe I just turned 39 so 31Okay,
Rich (21:32):
yeah. And at that point in life, too, like, sharing a crash
pad with other people, you'relike, I'm too grown for this.
Yeah,
Kenturah Johnson (21:37):
I was also in the military, and I had to,
like, share, like, smallquarters, like, I'm good, yeah,
yeah.
Andrew (21:46):
I was a baby when I started, and it was still not,
it was still no for me, like,fresh out of college, still
couldn't do, like, that dormlife with all the flight
attendants. Yeah, it was, and
Kenturah Johnson (21:55):
I was in boarding school. So, like, good.
Rich (21:58):
You have done your time.
Kenturah Johnson (22:02):
I've shared, I've shared all the
Rich (22:04):
things give me my space.
Yeah, I don't blame you,
Kenturah Johnson (22:07):
no, but early flying was fine. I just, I the
my very first day in training, Icame correct with, like, the
things in my blush, my mascara,my lipstick and some two inch
heels, in fact, because you hadto, because I had to, and then
I, like, was like, I'm not gonnawear heels. And so they're like,
Okay, you can wear flats. Ipushed back right away, good. So
(22:29):
I was in flats by like, thefirst day of training.
Rich (22:32):
That's good. Yeah, I'm glad you were able to win that
battle, because, I mean,airlines are still so strict
about certain uniformguidelines, it's crazy. Yeah,
when so, I mean, I'm assumingthat was part of your motivation
to get started with union work.
But what, when did you firststart getting involved with AFA
and union work? Flight Attendantwise, I know you were union in
(22:52):
other jobs before, but yeah,specifically flight stuff.
Kenturah Johnson (22:58):
I think the first time that I really got
involved was the uniforms forsure, one because how it
happened. It's not supposed tohappen. But there's someone who
encouraged to get a few sizesbigger, because they said that
we would gain weight. Oh, yeah,they knew. They knew it was
(23:19):
coming, yeah. But also, like,you don't know my life, right?
How about we not do that, right?
And you're not paying for myuniform, so, but also just
wanting to, like, be me, and,like, present how I wanted to
present. And then I found outthat one of the instructors was
able to have the male uniform.
And I said, Hey, how caneveryone get that, right? Yeah.
And so at first I had to, like,email my manager, and then they
(23:41):
opened the website for like, afew hours. I'm like, This is
ridiculous. And so fighting tomake sure everyone was able to,
like, choose what they wanted tobut then telling everyone about
it so that they could also goand be like, hey, yeah, was big.
Rich (23:54):
Because even when they do allow for these things to
happen, they always make sure toadd in red tape and hoops to
jump through and things likethat. They're not going to make
it easy for you. No, they wantyou to really think about what
you're doing and make you feelbad about it. It's like they're
trying to shame people to notbeing
Kenturah Johnson (24:12):
themselves correct. And it's a problem.
It's a huge problem. It's a hugeproblem. So we're fighting so
that that can happen and thatshouldn't happen. And like,
yeah, people should be able to,like, show up how they want, as
their authentic self, but beseen and respected just as that
and like, they can do their job.
They do their job right.
Andrew (24:32):
And throwing in a couple, like, gender neutral
uniform pieces is not enough.
Like, if you're listening, letpeople wear what they want to
wear to work.
Kenturah Johnson (24:42):
Thank you. And maybe some sneakers sometimes
too.
Andrew (24:45):
Oh, my God, I just ordered some sneakers for work.
They're all black leather.
Rich (24:48):
I'm so excited. Have you seen some of these? Like, it's
usually lower cost carriers, butlike on international airlines,
they have these, like, cutesporty suits with, like, the
sneakers, they look good. Theylook comfortable.
Unknown (25:03):
Yeah. Yes, yeah, they
Rich (25:08):
look amazing. I'm like, cute. It is 2025, we need to let
some of these standards go Nofor real. Great. So first role
in AFA, what was your first?
Kenturah Johnson (25:17):
My first role was local council vice
president, okay, at Piedmontcouncils.
Rich (25:23):
I mean, that's a pretty big deal to start right out,
yeah,
Kenturah Johnson (25:27):
someone was president. They were tired. They
asked, you know, and said, Yeah,I could, you know, do a little
something. And then I was vicepresident. And then, like, then
she was tired, so then I becamepresident, and then I just ran.
But also, like, saw a lot ofthings, like, I'm a black woman
who flies for a small carrierinto some small places, you know
(25:48):
what I mean, where we're notseen and respected as we should
be. And so like, letting thecompany know, like, Hey, we're
not going to take that shit. Andwe also know who you hire,
right?
Rich (25:58):
Are you talking specifically about, like,
passengers? Co workers,passengers, all of the above.
Kenturah Johnson (26:05):
You know, it's like, we hope, and we want to be
able to get along with all ofour co workers. But the reality
is, like, not everyone'saligned. And like, that's the
reality of things right now. Youknow what I mean. And like, we
hope that we can be aligned onissues of human fucking rights,
basic human decency is real,basic love and care, looking out
(26:26):
for one another. But it seemslike some people are still a
little bit discon disconnected.
Rich (26:31):
That's something that's always fascinated me about the
flight attendant profession andpeople who aren't in this
industry. I feel like make theseassumptions that all flight
attendants have this like grandworldview, and everyone is very
open minded and accepting andloving. And I think even some of
these flight attendants thinkthat they are. They're like,
it's like, that token situationwhere they're like, oh, I have a
(26:53):
gay friend or whatever. Likethey they don't realize what
their thoughts and actions like,how they're not lining up. You
know, it's like, they thinkthey're this wonderfully open
minded person, and then they saysomething off the cuff. And
you're like, wait a minute. Youjust told me you were open
minded and liberal and whatever,and you just said something
really closed minded andhateful. And it's like, people
need to I don't know. You thinkthere would be more
(27:17):
understanding among ourcolleagues than there is
Kenturah Johnson (27:20):
no that is true. And I know because, like,
we represent a very diverseunion, and for sure, folks from
all different walks of life andrepresentation does matter. But
I also I grew up overseas inKenya. I grew up as
missionaries. I grew up with abunch of white people around me.
(27:41):
We first got to Kenya, I askedmy parents, if we're in Africa,
then why are all these whitepeople here? So, like, I'm very
familiar with, like, whitesavior. And so like, Yeah, but
also, people don't know whatthey don't know, right? And so
like, I've had conversationswith people who don't look like
me. You know what I mean to belike, Hey, what's going on,
right? And I always wear, like,my bigger repellent, as I call
my pens, so that people know,like, either you're seen or,
(28:03):
like, Don't come to me with thatbullshit, not today. But it is.
It does suck, because witheverything going on, like, we
shouldn't be having to havethese conversations, but like,
we still have to have theseconversations. And that's why
I'm really thankful for like,Sarah and and Dante, because,
like, we all have the samemessage, but we all deliver it
(28:23):
very differently, and we allhave different clientele, and we
did, you know, we all havedifferent folks who receive us.
And like, Sarah lets me go off.
Like, going off too, you know,like, but no, but I also think,
like, that's why people respectus too, because, like, we say
things, but like, it's not justfor one person, it's like for
everyone, yeah, we're not justtalking for one group of people,
(28:43):
right?
Rich (28:45):
Everyone? Yeah. And then you're you hit the nail on the
head with the three of youdelivering it differently and to
different people, becausedifferent types of people are
going to listen to you,different types of people are
going to listen to Sarah, justdifferent types of people are
going to listen to Dante, andlike, you need all of those
people to be represented inorder for there to be changed.
Because, you know, there'salways going to be space for
(29:06):
people like Sarah, and therealways needs to be space for
people like you, like they thoseall the different types of
voices need to be there in orderto be heard by
Andrew (29:15):
everybody. And we work together, and we watch AFA
closely. I mean, we work withAFA. I am an AFA member for
life. He is correct. He is anhonorary
Kenturah Johnson (29:29):
wearing his pen, if I may say today, he is
because no shade. You know, I becoming to my pins.
Andrew (29:37):
I'm gonna go there in a minute. But I really, I truly
applaud all three of you at themoment, because I really love
that you celebrate each other'sdifferences and the way that you
all represent each otherdifferently. Because it's not
like no one's telling anyoneelse in the office to, like,
slow down or temper yourselves.
You're all hyping each other upand being like, go out there and
(29:59):
fight the way you fight. And I,I love to see that all of you
are celebrating each other'spersonalities right now. Nothing
really makes me very happy. No,
Kenturah Johnson (30:07):
it's great.
And I'd be texting Sarah, like,When can I pop off? Like, when
shit like,
Rich (30:13):
I've scheduled it for these hours.
Andrew (30:15):
And truthfully, I love to see you in particular, out in
these streets. Like, honestly,you are on every picket line.
There is no union activism thatyou're not we talked with Sarah
about building power, and Ithink she is a representation of
that, but you are truly theembodiment of that. For me,
because I see you on everypicket line. There is no like,
(30:38):
there is no cause that you arenot ready to back or figure out
how to back, or how to supportsomebody to get their cause
where they want it to go. And Ijust, I'm such a fan,
truthfully.
Rich (30:50):
Thank you. Yeah, adding on to that, I love it, because
people, you know, our flightattendants, love to say, like,
where's our union? What are theydoing? And I'm like, go to
couture. His Instagram. Have youseen her? She. Is out doing
something right now. I promiseyou, she's fighting for
somebody, with somebody near,somebody, about somebody, like
it's happening out here rightnow. So, yeah, I love the
(31:10):
visibility that you have broughtto the union that I don't think
we've seen before, like beforethis current, you know, trio of
you guys, I feel like you'vejust brought so much visibility
to the table, because
Andrew (31:22):
literally, all of you are out in the streets. I mean,
Dante is out of the office morethan he's ended at this point.
You know what? I mean, we just,I truly love to see how much you
all are out there, trulyrepresenting us. And you know,
I'm gonna move backwards. Youwere talking about your pins.
You I don't think people reallydon't I. I think people forget
(31:44):
how important it is, because weall want to be represented. And
I think,
Rich (31:51):
are you pulling out more pins?
Unknown (31:52):
I Yes,
Kenturah Johnson (31:55):
but they're special pins. Sorry, there's
Rich (31:56):
no shortage of pins.
Andrew (31:57):
These are my favorite. I have one on my lunch box, and I
get so many questions about itall the time. And I'm like, you
just don't even know. Even know.
You have no idea. But anyways, Ilove the pins. It's not even
just the AFA ones, like, Ialways have a rainbow one on me.
I love that we have so many ofthe diversity pins these days
because it really helps peopleto be seen and felt and heard.
And, you know, I wear a pronounpin on my uniform, just because
(32:20):
people need to know they're in asafe space.
Kenturah Johnson (32:25):
And like people recognize our pen, they
know our pen. Here's a quickveteran pin plug. So for those
of you listening, if you're aveteran and you fly, please
reach out. I have a very specialveteran pin that was created for
veterans. So yes, please makesure that you get your veterans
pen.
Rich (32:44):
That's amazing. I
Andrew (32:45):
love that I have one because I carry them with me. I
almost wore it today for thatreason, because I was going to
plug it. So I'm glad you
Kenturah Johnson (32:53):
have them with you for veterans only, find
yours,
Andrew (32:56):
and that respectfully, is why I did not wear it,
because I am not a veteran, andI did not feel like I had the
right to put it on today. Heknows his place, my place in the
world, no, but it's not. It'snot for me. I carry them to hand
out to people who are veterans,but I was gonna wear one today.
And then I was like, should Iwear it? And I was like, I
(33:17):
don't. I don't think this is forme. And Rich was like, it's not.
Don't
Kenturah Johnson (33:20):
do it. No.
Just so that everyone knows whenyou go online, there's a
website, but, like, it'scurated. So like, you tell us a
little bit about yourself, andthen I send a hand written card
and a pen to your house. Sothat's amazing. It's not like,
just like, it's, this is specialshit. I love that. This is just
like from my office, only
Rich (33:38):
speaking of your office, going, following along on your
AFA journey, you were the firstqueer woman of color elected to
any office in AFA that high,right?
Kenturah Johnson (33:48):
Yes, it's been a crazy three years, and some
change. It all happened veryquickly. I think I've said that
this is the most respected andlike disrespected I've ever,
like felt in a position by,like, respected because, like, I
get a lot of respect because ofthe position and things like
that, but also disrespect,because I'm a black woman, and,
(34:09):
like, disrespect, like, whenthey see, you know, Sarah,
whatever, and then like, Sarahwill send them back to me, and
then like, they come back withtheir trouble to me, you know,
but it's like, it's just like,but it's like, basic human, you
know, it's been good. It's beentiring, it's been challenging,
but it's been fucking fantastic.
This is, yeah, I feel at home. Ifeel seen. I feel so fucking
seen, but I feel honored tolike, make sure that other
(34:32):
people can be seen andrespected. And like, knowing
that our Union's like, makingchange, and people are like,
know about our union, and knowabout like, their rights in our
job, in our career.
Andrew (34:44):
You know, I think we often thank Sarah for that, but
I think you have a lot to beyou're a big part of this, and
the fact that we are seenbecause you're out so many
places, yeah. I mean, reallyworking for
Kenturah Johnson (34:57):
people, yeah.
I mean people I don't know. I'velived a lot of lives. And like,
when people are hurting, like Ifeel fucking hurt, and like, in
Philly, people hurt, and solike, all over right now, people
are hurting. People are hurtingin a way like we've never seen.
Times are not good right now.
They're not the best.
Rich (35:15):
No, no, they're really not. And people are really
emboldened to just spew hatelike they've never been
emboldened before, and it's wildto watch. You talked a little
bit about that with this role,like, you're respected and
disrespected more than you'veever been like as a black woman
in this role. Like, what? How doyou cope with that? Like, what
(35:36):
are, how do you take that in andcontinue doing what you're doing
in
Kenturah Johnson (35:42):
face of that, yeah, like, I've lived a lot of
lives, like I've done, I've seena lot of things. Like, I'm a
fucking veteran, I fucking, Iwas adopted and found my
biological family, but on myown, like, I've done a lot of
things, and so, like, what dothey say? Sticks and stones?
Well, whatever. But like, like,yeah, people like, I. Don't
know. I just don't let it botherme. People will learn, yeah, I
(36:05):
don't know. Might be a shittyanswer, but
Rich (36:07):
no, I mean, it's a real answer. You can't let
Kenturah Johnson (36:10):
it Yeah, I can't let like, if I'm like,
maybe I've learned to have toughskin. Like, yeah, I don't know.
You just, you gotta let youjust, I just got to keep going
like, I don't have it. I can'tright, I can't, right, yes,
Rich (36:22):
that's no, that's fair. I mean, you've lived 1000 lives at
this point and been through somany different experiences, like
you must have the toughest ofskins
Andrew (36:31):
and caught on your they're gonna learn. Because I
just I know you as a human, andI know you're teaching people,
like I've seen you out working.
And I know that you it's notjust they're going to learn,
because you are schooling peopleeverywhere you go, well,
Kenturah Johnson (36:46):
they're going to learn and they're going to
come Correct, correct. So I'vebeen saying come correct or
don't come at all. That's themotto, right now, like, come
correct or don't come at all,right? Because what else are we
doing, honestly, right?
Rich (36:57):
I like that. I do because you should, yeah, what are some
things that you think we couldbe doing better to speak up in
the workplace. I mean, you know,they give us, like trainings and
modules and things, and thosefall on deaf ears, like the
people that should beunderstanding those modules
don't. What do you think aresome good ways to like, stop
(37:19):
somebody in their tracks and belike, actually,
Kenturah Johnson (37:22):
I think people just need to start having
conversations with each other.
People are so afraid to talkbecause they're afraid of, like,
saying the wrong thing, whichis, like, I appreciate you of
being cautious, but like, butthen, if we're always gonna be
afraid, then are we ever gonna,like, right? Get past it.
Education is great, wearingthings, speaking out, just
(37:42):
saying something like, if yousee some fucked up shit, speak
out on it. Like, if you see somebeing fucking misgendered, say
something like, if you you knowwhat I mean. If you see a person
of color, you know what I mean.
If you see people in vulnerablesituations, vulnerable people in
vulnerable situation, speak upand say something. And if you
(38:03):
can, like, like, I said, useyour privileges, power. Wear a
shirt, wear a pen, you know whatI mean? Just like, do whatever
you can.
Rich (38:11):
Yeah, that's a good point, especially with our uniforms.
Like pens are one of the fewways we have to express
ourselves without, you know,breaking some sort of crazy
airline uniform rule. So yeah,and speaking up. I think people
don't realize how importantspeaking up is. And like you
said, people are afraid to bewrong, but you have to sometimes
(38:33):
say the wrong thing to learn toget somewhere. Like, I mean, as
a white gay man, I feel like youknow you think, Oh, I'm open
minded, and I know all thethings about something, and then
you say something in your life,and it's like, sometimes you got
to learn the hard way and belike, hello, there's other
perspectives. There's otherworld views. And I feel like
there's a lot of communitieswithin the queer community,
(38:56):
white gay men that really justhave this perspective sometimes
that like they're, what'd yousay, I said we can speak on
Yeah, but just like that, youknow that they think, Okay,
well, I'm a gay man. I couldnever be, you know, racist or
transphobic or anything likethat, and or vote for Trump or
Right exactly. And I think it'sjust you've got to address those
(39:18):
things and talk about them whenyou see them in order for people
to change their perspective.
Kenturah Johnson (39:25):
I mean, people don't know what they don't know,
but at a certain point, if youdon't fucking know what's going
on, and you're not activelydoing something to to, like,
educate yourself, right, orfight back, then we're like,
right? That's when, like,
Andrew (39:42):
100% agree, because I think that's part of the work
that you're doing. Because Ithink that as flight attendants,
we, a lot of us, come frommarginalized communities, and
people don't realize that we getput in unsafe situations that we
didn't really ask for. Like, Ican't avoid going to a certain
state or that doesn't, you know,accept me as a human I think
(40:07):
that the general populationdoesn't know that marginalized
communities get forced to goplaces that there that aren't
safe for them. Yeah, a lot ofthe time. Yeah, I
Kenturah Johnson (40:16):
feel like flight attendants within
different carriers, and justlike, within the union, like,
are also but I think they'restarting to, like, realize their
power and their strength. Youknow, people are like, wait a
second, wait a second, yougetting screwed too, right?
Yeah, they're gonna bring up,yeah, oh, you got trans, oh,
(40:38):
you're a vet, yeah? And like,people are realizing that we
have more in common. Yeah, andlike, Wait a second.
Rich (40:44):
Well, the sad part is, as more and more people get screwed
over by the situations and thegovernment and the things that
are happening in our societytoday, the more people are
starting to be fed up with it.
So, you know, there's at leastsome silver lining to that,
where people are finally like,you know what, I'm fed up. And
I'm gonna stand up with you,because this is bullshit. Like
seeing people, that's one of myfavorite things, is seeing
(41:05):
people from differentcommunities standing up for
communities that are differentthan them, like without any real
they're not getting anything outof it. They're doing it because
they see what's fundamentallywrong with what's happening. For
example, ice taking people outof communities, and they're
standing up and they're sayingthings, and they're not just
being innocent, you know, by orbystanders and just watching
(41:28):
what happens like they're beingactive, engaged citizens. And
it's those moments are giving mea little bit of hope for
humanity. It's tough holding onto that little bit of hope for
sure. Good god, there's no seguehere. I don't know, but what are
some of your proudest moments atAFA, I mean, what are some
(41:52):
things that you've done? Whatare some things that you've
done? What are what are youproud of over the last few
years, whether personally orprofessionally. Like, what are
some things you've done thatyou're just really proud of?
Kenturah Johnson (42:08):
I'm really, like, proud of our union and
like, fighting and using theirvoices and like people who
didn't know they had a voice,you know what? I mean, who
didn't know they had rightswithin their union, who didn't
know our human rights and equitycommittee has been doing a lot
of work to make sure to makesure that like people are seen
and like people think it's a gaycommittee, like that was so gay.
Now we do more than just likegay, right? But fighting back,
(42:31):
like the passport ban was anissue with gender markers and
like we were on top of thatshit, like it's our fucking
livelihood. Like people forget,you know what I mean? Like, we
move everyone. We move people inand out, you know, and so
letting people know that, like,we have power, and like
educating people about our jobthat people don't know, I think,
(42:54):
has been really great. But also,just like seeing us come
together through the past year,since the crash happened in
January since, like, everything,I'm just like, attacks on our
union, attacks personal attackson, like, friends that we love,
you know what I mean? And justlike seeing people like, stand
up, and like the conversation wejust had about, like, how not
everyone's aligned, and likeseeing people be able to, like,
(43:16):
show up for people, even if theydon't understand why right now
and then, like, using that tohelp them. I think I say
sometimes, like, we got to,like, drag people, and then,
like, pull them, you know, pullthem as much as we can, because,
like, people are tired. It'sexhausting. We have to keep
going, because it's like, it'snever ending, right?
Rich (43:37):
Yeah, and not everybody has that privilege to just be
like, it is what it is like alot of people have to continue
fighting, even when they'reexhausted and don't feel like
they can go on anymore. Yeah,and we all have to keep fighting
with those people.
Andrew (43:50):
Yeah, for sure, I don't want to keep fan girling over
here, but the HRE committee isone of my favorite things that
you do. I've personally learneda lot like I kind of alluded to
it earlier, but going places wedon't necessarily want to go,
like as a female, going intoplaces that you're not
respected, your body's notrespected, like if something
(44:12):
happens to you and you have togo to a hospital in a place
where you have to make, youknow, decisions like the
awareness that's that that thatcommittee has brought, even to
me, about that issue, likebathrooms and airports and
people just feeling safe to goto bathrooms. I mean, we did a
whole campaign on finding genderneutral bathrooms in airports.
Kenturah Johnson (44:35):
Kansas City is great, by the way. Oh, are they?
Oh, my gosh, yes. Okay, that'sgreat, like, big and bold gender
neutral restrooms.
Andrew (44:44):
Like, I love that, because they're generally, like,
hidden inside of a genderedbathroom. You
Rich (44:49):
mentioned that because I've had a lot of Kansas City
layovers this year, and I walkedby them, and I have flown with
so many crew members that havesaid something like, Well, you
know, does it need to bewhatever? And I was like, why
does this affect you? How isthis affecting you gendered in
the first right, truthfully? Andthis, this drives us nuts
(45:12):
anyway, when you go to, like,those restaurants or places that
have two just single usebathrooms, and it's like, why is
one of these female and one ofthese male? Why does the
bathroom need to have a gender.
Kenturah Johnson (45:21):
So a lot of places are changing. They are
just use whatever fuckingbathroom you want. Oh, yep.
Rich (45:26):
Well, do you have any advice that you advice or words
of wisdom that you would give toany, let's say, New Hire flight
attendants or aspiring flightattendants for how to do this
job in this crazy world that welive in, things you wish you
knew when you started,
Kenturah Johnson (45:44):
ooh, definitely wear your pen. That's
like a given. I remember I putmine on right after my new
higher class kept that shit onever since. Get involved in your
union. If you have issues, bringthem forward.
Rich (45:58):
Advocate for yourself.
For. Yeah, it's the best thingyou can do.
Kenturah Johnson (46:02):
Use your voice. Use your voice. Use your
voice. Use your voice. Yeah.
Rich (46:06):
Well, you said, Sarah always gives you a chance to go
off before we wrap up our show.
Is there anything you want to gooff about?
Kenturah Johnson (46:16):
I mean, there's so many things that I
want to go off about, but, Imean, there are some things that
I always say, which is, protecttrans folks, fight and save
lives, respect veterans. Phillyis a union town. And also, if
you did not know, also, Phillyis a woman sports town and watch
party. Phil watch party PHL, runby my buddy Jen Larry and her
(46:40):
people are starting like women'ssports activity. Maybe that's
another way to say it. Well, Idid that as well. Anyways,
please go to Instagram andfollow watch party PHL, or watch
party PHL. Watch party PHL, forall things women's sports in
Philadelphia,
Rich (46:59):
we're gonna go follow them right now and make sure we
watch. So before we go, we wantto play a quick round of a game
that we play with all of ourguests called cross checked. And
we are going to give you 10rapid fire questions. Just say
the first thing that comes toyour mind, are you ready? All
(47:20):
right, window or aisle, aisle,Airbus or Boeing Embraer 145
love hotel or Airbnb. Oh,Marriott queen,
Andrew (47:31):
favorite layover city,
Kenturah Johnson (47:32):
Syracuse, New York, all right, oh, God, that
all this, I'm not good at thisgame. Favorite airport, I bang
with Philly a lot.
Andrew (47:48):
It's mine. So I get that least favorite airport,
Charlotte, that's correct.
Kenturah Johnson (47:53):
God. What is going on over there?
Rich (47:56):
Go to go to snack while flying flips, but covered
Kenturah Johnson (48:00):
pretzels, not the for sure. And chewy, chewy
sweethearts, favorite
Andrew (48:06):
song on your travel playlist? I don't know
Rich (48:10):
favorite song right now, currently listening to
Kenturah Johnson (48:14):
No, but are you familiar with G flip? Yes.
Okay, so I met them the othernight. No shit, yeah, they were
in Philly. What, what? Yeah,they were, they had a, were they
doing a show here? Yeah. So Iwent. I got to
Rich (48:27):
meet. We missed everything. G, flip, one item
that's always in your carry on,pins, a of a pins, I love, love
you for this
Andrew (48:36):
place you've always wanted to visit.
Kenturah Johnson (48:40):
Ooh, Montana,
Rich (48:43):
love it. Love that amazing. Well, check out
Montana.
I don't know, katura, we want tothank you so much for coming on
the show and being here on ourpodcast and for supporting all
things. To guys on the plane,you're amazing, and you're doing
incredible work out there. Sothank you for being on the show.
Andrew (49:05):
Yes, thank you so much for being here with us. We
appreciate you so much and thework that you do every day and
your visibility for all thingsflight attendant related, we
appreciate you a lot.
Kenturah Johnson (49:16):
No, thank you guys for having me. It's always
a blast to kick it with you all.
So yeah,
Andrew (49:23):
go birds. Go birds join us next time for more humor,
heart and stories from ourbeverage cart. This
Rich (49:29):
episode was brought to you by staff traveler, the number
one non rev app if you travel onstandby tickets and are looking
to make your journey easy andstress free, check out the staff
traveler app in the Apple AppStore or Google Play Store,
visit staff traveler.com/twoguys to learn more and sign up
Buzz Burbank (49:47):
an ironic media production. Visit us at I R O N,
I C, K, media.com, you.
Ever wondered what your flight attendants are really
talking about behind the galleycurtain?
Andrew (00:06):
Welcome to Two guys on a plane. Your go to podcast for an
insider look at flight attendantlife.
Rich (00:11):
We're your hosts, rich and Drew, and we're here to tell you
what really goes on at 35,000feet.
Andrew (00:16):
So sit back, relax.
We're ready for takeoff.
Rich (00:21):
All right, everybody, today is Veterans Day, and we
are so excited to have a veryspecial guest with us in studio
to honor veterans day. Today'sguest is katura Johnson,
international, Vice President ofAFA CWA. Ketura is a combat
veteran, a flight attendant, aunion leader and a fierce
advocate for equity, inclusionand trans rights, she made
(00:42):
history as the first queer womanof color and combat veteran
elected to serve in her AFA CWArole in our conversation today,
we'll explore her journey frommilitary service to aviation and
what it's like to be a queerperson of color in union
leadership.
Andrew (00:57):
Welcome couture, we're so excited to have you here
today and to just have a greatconversation with you, normally,
we start off talking about ourday or our week or some crazy
thing that's happened to us. Sowe want to start with you. Tell
us your like, most memorablepassenger experience or some
wild flight that you've hadsomething crazy that happened to
(01:18):
you while you were working as aflight attendant.
Kenturah Johnson (01:20):
Okay, well, there is this time that I
actually met Joe Biden in theairport. I was I casual, was
walking back from dropping off afriend at a gate, and I was
walking and he had just comethrough security, and his
aviators on, and he was on thecarts that they no longer allow
enough terminal. And I justlike, I don't know why, but,
(01:41):
like, I don't know why, butlike, in a British accent, was
like, Excuse me, so may I and hesaid, sure. He took off his
aviators and, like, his staffare, like, leaned down now, now
I get it out and, like, I thinkwe took a selfie. And I was
like, Holy fuck. And I'm like,my FA pin on, and like, walk to
the gate. I was like, fuck yeah,
Andrew (01:58):
that's amazing. Love this. I He's here a lot, I
think, or was here a lot. Imean, I forget that he lives so
close to us here in Philly. Hewas
Kenturah Johnson (02:06):
eating at a non union restaurant the other
day. Oh, call him out for it.
Rich (02:13):
Philly is a union town, correct? So you do have to call
him out for that. That's anamazing story. I love this. I
love that you met him. So beforeall of your crazy aviation
adventures and stories, yourcareer started on the ground.
Well, yeah, on the ground,before aviation, you were in the
military. So take us back kindof to the beginning about you
(02:37):
know who you are, where you'refrom, and then how you got into
military and all that beforeaviation, yeah.
Kenturah Johnson (02:42):
So I actually started a lot of people to know
this with LSU sky chefscaterplanes. So actually, come
from United here, local 274which is Philadelphia, hotel
workers and, like, I justneeded, like, a change, I guess,
and so I joined the militarybecause I don't know, I needed
something to do with somethingthat, like, no one could tell
you that you had to do it. Likemy parents, that's the first
(03:04):
question they asked you. Like,Didn't anyone make you come
here? Like, no, you have to signyour fucking papers, right? So
yes, I was like, a thing that Icould do for myself. And so,
like, I went through themilitary, I didn't know, like,
why really I wanted to do it,but it was like something that I
could challenge myself. And thenafter that, I started working at
the airport. I remember that Iwanted to be able to fly and
travel. So I grew up overseas inKenya for 17 years. A lot of
(03:25):
people don't know this. I wasadopted, actually, in Maryland,
well, in Pennsylvania, but,like, adopted. My parents are
doctors and missionaries, and sothey felt it was God's call,
uprooted us, moved us to Kenya.
And so, like, that's where I,like, got my love of travel
from. And so when I moved backto the States, I always knew
that I always knew that I wantedto be able to travel and, like,
not pay for it, right? So Ialways try to get into the
airline industry. However Icould the best perk. And so I
(03:47):
ended up like LSU sky chefs toget in. And then I started
working as a ramp agent. Andthen as a ramp agent, I feel
getting older now. Oh my gosh,the timeline is getting fun. I
Oh, but then there was somemilitary stuff. I was in the
National Guard, so like, oneweek in a month, two weeks in
the summertime. And then while Iwas at Drexel, going to school,
(04:10):
I got out of the military, okay?
And then that's when, like, myaviation started taking off.
Rich (04:19):
Okay, amazing. What inspired you or motivated you to
join the military in the firstplace?
Kenturah Johnson (04:26):
I don't know.
I just was like, why not? Myparents were still back in
Kenya, okay, at the time. Idon't know. I grew up overseas
in Kenya, so, like, thingsdidn't make sense back Yeah, and
like, the routine, I don't know.
Maybe I needed some structure,maybe some discipline.
Rich (04:42):
Yeah, you can all use a little discipline, but I got it
totally understand that. Whatwas your experience in combat
like? I mean, I can't imagineanything about it. So what? What
was that like for those of uswho don't have any military.
Kenturah Johnson (05:00):
Or Yeah. So part of like, being in the
National Guard, the joke is,like, okay, it's not when you
go, it's not where you go, it'swhen you go. There's usually,
like, right after training to bedeployed, right? So I deployed
to Afghanistan in 2010 and itwas wild. I remember, like,
being on the ground and like,oh, people are really actively
trying to kill you. And then Iwas there under, don't ask,
(05:20):
don't tell. And I was actuallyboots on the ground when it was
repealed. So I remember, like, Ibought a bunch of rainbow flags
and patches for all the gays.
Yeah, I knew that were gay, andso I don't know it's crazy to
fight in a war that you're like,What the fuck are we doing here?
It's crazy to watch your friendsget fucking killed over
bullshit. It's crazy to watch,like families, like, lose loved
ones. Yeah, it's just, it'sfucked up. I mean, looking back
(05:46):
now and knowing what's going onin the world, I even said to
someone, if I was still in themilitary right now, oh my god, I
would be, like, revolting fromwithin. Like I would be, yeah,
we'd be unionizing. Well,
Rich (05:59):
that's what's crazy for sure, like, we all thought it
was fucked up. Then, you know,it's like, now we look at where
we are today, and it's like,1000 times more intense and more
insane, yeah, and
Andrew (06:09):
particularly with all the progress we had made and
celebrations we were doing,you're talking about, don't ask,
don't tell, being repealed.
Like, I had to be freeing to,like, Finally, be able to be
yourself and represent yourversion of America in the army,
right? Yes. And now we're eventaking that away. Basically, I
mean,
Kenturah Johnson (06:27):
no, they are.
It's, they're getting transright on our human rights and
equity call. We just had apresentation talking about,
like, the strip of veteransrights and, like, the ban on
trans rights and things likethat. And how it's like this,
just like, the reveal justhappened. Like, this is, like,
it pretty recent history, very,very recent history to, like,
have to go back. So, like, Yeah,it's crazy that, like, I fought
(06:47):
for our country, and like,people can't see me. You know
what I mean? Like, it's, it'sfucking, it's, it's crazy.
That's why I always tell people,like, Don't clap for veterans.
Vote for veterans. Like, fuckingMarc veterans, yeah, there you
go. Like, stop fucking justclapping for us,
Rich (07:04):
right? Like, back up your this thought of, okay, we
support veterans. Like, backthat up with something with your
actions, rather than just yourwords. Fucking over absolutely
100% 2025, we're done. We'vemoved on. If you're not showing
up and doing something about it,shut up exactly.
Kenturah Johnson (07:21):
Yes, and use your privileges power all the
time. Yeah. What can I do?
There's so many things that youcan do, right? You know what I
mean? So,
Rich (07:27):
so I feel like back then you were probably there was some
sense of pride being in themilitary and serving the country
to some degree, right? Maybe,yeah. But now not so much. I
feel like it must be really hardfor people in the military now
to continue serving, right?
Kenturah Johnson (07:44):
No, I mean, there's still people who
actively want to serve. Like,everyone has a job. You know
what? I mean, we might not agreewith what the job is, but like,
we should have pride in the joband be respected to do our job.
And like, that's how you knowtrans folks in the military now,
like, they're trans, they'requeer, they want to be able to
do their job. Yeah, marriedthings that we want is funny,
right, correct, right? And it'sand it's being stripped away,
and it's fucked up. And while,yes, they have a pride, some
(08:07):
people that's their choice.
Their choice is to go into themilitary, yeah? And so
Andrew (08:12):
because your gender identity, your sexuality, those
things don't change who you areas a human and whether or not
you can do the job, yeah, thatyou like signed up to do, and
it's just wild to me that that'staken away from people who
actively want to support andlike, protect our country and
(08:32):
have for so many years, and whohave done it better than like so
many other people that are thereand with so much more integrity,
and are now being told that notonly they can they not do their
job, but you don't get yourhealth benefits, you don't get
your retirement benefits. Like,all of that is taken away for
what? For what?
Kenturah Johnson (09:52):
No, I remember when I first got in and we do
our physicals and, like, Iremember, like, the doctor
checking to make sure that I wasfemale. Like, that's like, Come
Yes, that's the type of shit.
Yes, I remember that
Andrew (10:06):
2010 was not that long ago. This should not
Rich (10:10):
it's just it's feels so cold and inhumane to treat
somebody like that. You know,like to be that up close and
personal, and to feel like youhave the right to make those
judgments or check those thingson a person, like it's but,
Kenturah Johnson (10:27):
you know, it's the military, and we're the
guinea pigs. And so they say, wesign up and do, like, a lot of
you know, we I remember getting,like, the first, like, Anthrax
sniff of, you know what I mean,like, yeah, we line us up and do
that shit.
Rich (10:41):
Yeah, they made you guys test anthrax,
Kenturah Johnson (10:44):
yeah? Like, we test a lot of shit. Like, it's
the military. Wow, you signpapers. And that's why I'm like,
Yeah, this is fucking crazy, andthat's why, like, now I say
whatever the fuck I want,because I am a combat veteran,
right? Yeah, whatever I'veearned my right? Yeah, right,
yeah. But, like, They line usup, like, Oh, we're gonna.
Remember they said we're gonnatry it out. This new thing came
out. It was, like, the first,like, the anthrax or something,
(11:07):
or maybe it was, I don't know,anthrax or flu or whatever.
We're guinea pigs. I can't sayno,
Andrew (11:12):
I'm not often speechless, but I'm like,
literally, I don't, I don't evenknow where to go right now,
yeah, like, gobsmacked.
Rich (11:19):
I mean, that's you hear stories about things. And, you
know, as people who aren't inthe military, we can only
imagine what some of theseexperiences are like. And it's
like, it might be worse than wethought. Everyone
Kenturah Johnson (11:30):
has a different I'm like, I was, I was
in the army. I know the Marinesdo things differently, right?
The air man or air people dothink you know what I mean.
Like, everyone
Rich (11:38):
does their own there is their own little culture within
each branch of the military,
Kenturah Johnson (11:42):
our carriers have our own culture. You're
Rich (11:45):
not kidding about that.
Did those experiences like, howlooking back at it now? How did
that like shape your worldview?
Or like, what takeaways Do youhave from that time in your
life?
Kenturah Johnson (11:58):
I know growing up overseas definitely like
shaped my life, of course, ofseeing like, like, I went to
boarding school since I was fiveyears old, and so, like, I don't
know, taking it for granted forsure, just like, little things,
Yeah, I don't know.
Andrew (12:20):
Well, I'm still stuck on No, my brain is not. My brain
has not caught up from you beinga guinea pig in the military.
This is wild to me, and I don'tknow how those sort of things. I
mean, you mentioned it, you feellike you have a right to just be
like, fuck off to everybody atthis point. But there's no way
that that, I mean, doesn'tchange your worldview. I mean,
(12:44):
it can't your politicalaffiliations, like all of it, it
has to shape.
Kenturah Johnson (12:49):
And so I guess, like, now, like, lip
service is dead. I like, my eyesare open to people who, like,
say things, actions, you know,really need to be backing up
people's words. You know what Imean. And like, just being more
awake to like, what's going on.
I remember my first hearing thatI went to in DC, and I'm like,
Oh, this is what's happening.
(13:09):
This is how people are wastingour fucking time and our money.
Naughty. Have no fucking ideawhat's going on. No idea. I was
like, Oh, God, what the fuckyeah, what is happening?
Andrew (13:23):
Do you find any intersection between your
military life?
Rich (13:27):
Are there any things about military life that you feel like
kind of relate to being in thequeer community?
Kenturah Johnson (13:34):
Yeah, I feel like there's a camaraderie like
I feel like queers have and likeso all of the queer people that
I know in the military, like Italked to on a daily basis,
like, those are my people,right? Philly, they're around.
We stay in touch with eachother. So, but I feel like I was
always out in the military. Iwas in the closet because I
(13:59):
whatever. But like I was out, Iwas accepted. And everybody
knew. Like, everyone knew, Okay,I had to cut my hair. I had
locks, and I had to cut my hair.
My drill size made me cut myhair.
Andrew (14:07):
I've heard this story, and I it really is, I think you
were talking about it recentlyat one of our board meetings,
and I was literally in tears foryou. Yeah, I can't imagine,
like, the pain of that,
Kenturah Johnson (14:21):
yeah, I mean, hair grows back. There's a song,
I am not my hair. Still,
Andrew (14:26):
you're not. But like, so much of our identity is built
into like, who we choose torepresent ourselves as, like,
that's hair, that's color,that's clothes like, that's
there's so many things that arebuilt into that. And to have
that piece like, forced awayfrom you is traumatizing,
Kenturah Johnson (14:42):
yeah, for sure. And like, this is the
second time growing my locks.
And I remember, like, Okay, youstripped me down. And like, I'll
build up in the military. Butthese are also things that I
fight for now. Is like, peoplecan wear whatever hair that they
want. You know what I mean,like, Crown act what you know
what I mean, like dressinghowever you want, and things
like that. You know, themilitary, everyone has the same
uniform, you know, right? And Iremember American Airlines, we
did for a while at Piedmont, wedid for a while, and so they
(15:06):
recently changed it. So likegate agents and like females and
males are different, but before,everything was just the same,
and you couldn't tell. And soit's crazy that, like you
Andrew (15:18):
Yeah, we had this conversation a while back about
uniforms and like, just showingup comfortably who you are.
Like, it doesn't matter if Ichoose to wear a full female,
full male mix or match. Like thething, I show up better and I
represent my company better if Ifeel comfortable in my own skin,
(15:38):
and part of that is if I want towear a scarf, because it looks
better on me and I feel betterlike that's not even like a
queer thing. Like, just let aman wear a scarf if he wants to
tie an ass off. It makes himfeel better than like, choking
up in a tie. Let him wear that.
It does. It shouldn't matter, aslong as I show up fully myself
and happy and present at worklike the whole uniform thing.
(15:59):
Really troubles us, because it'sstill so gendered to this day.
Oh, and I know we're allfighting against it. I mean, I
know I am every day at myairline. I am fighting against
these gender norms every day,because it doesn't matter, show
up, be happy, be healthy.
Kenturah Johnson (16:14):
No, for sure, and I'm a big like, show up,
however, like, how I show up ishow I show up. The reason that
so I wear the men's uniform atmy airline. And the reason that
I do that is because when we gotthe new collection, females had
to wear scarves before youdidn't have to. And I'm like, I
will not wear a scarf, right?
And also, like, I look fly in atie, so
Rich (16:39):
come on, it just shouldn't be that complicated. Like, you
should just be able to wear whatyou feel comfortable wearing,
these options, and then let medecide what I feel comfortable
wearing. You know, it's like
Andrew (16:50):
cardigan, it's a blazer, and it's a pair of pants. Like,
how you put them togethershouldn't matter.
Rich (16:55):
Shouldn't matter. Like, we have airline guidelines, uniform
guidelines. We're all fine toadhere to that. We'll follow
your little rules, but like yougot to let us be ourselves
within those guidelines, sure.
So military life stopped. Thatdid you go back to Drexel at
that
Kenturah Johnson (17:13):
point? Yeah, so I know I didn't, but I used
the money to go to Drexel.
Gotcha, I like taking advantageof the benefits.
Rich (17:22):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you went
through, you might as well andtell your friends yeah, and then
went back to airline life as a
Kenturah Johnson (17:33):
ramp agent, yeah, yeah. What was that like?
It's hard work. I remember whenwe were hired. It's like any
degree, like any elements, beprepared, you know what I mean?
And like, it's cold outside, itwas great. I worked on the ramp
for a few years, and then on myone year anniversary of being a
(17:56):
manager, because I became amanager, I went to the all call
for diploma flight attendant.
Oh, yeah, whatever. And I gothired. And then I started
become, I started flying. Yeah,that's kind of how, the how it
took off, nice.
Rich (18:12):
I assume you liked being a flight attendant more than being
Kenturah Johnson (18:15):
absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Rich (18:18):
They were. They work hard down there. I could, don't envy
them, especially on hard weatherdays, yeah, the heat of the
summer, the cold of the winter.
Kenturah Johnson (18:26):
But the thing about it is, like ramp agents
and like ground workers, theyhave so much responsibility,
right? People don't realize it.
Like, you're responsible for theloads to make sure the loads go
out correctly, and you have tomake sure that the counter, we
had the dashes right, and if youare in the binge, you know, I
mean, like, that's a liability,yeah? And like, people
understand, like, you're signingto make sure that every we're
safe, as well as flightattendants. Yeah, and the people
(18:47):
on there, and like, people don'tunderstand
Rich (18:51):
it's a huge safety responsibility on their part.
And yeah, I think people justthink, you know, they throw our
arm bags and that's all they do.
It's kind of like our job. It'slike people think we serve
drinks and that's it. Likepeople don't see the other
layers of safety and security tothese roles, and
Kenturah Johnson (19:05):
just being on the tarmac and the ramp, like,
there's been a lot of accidents,very unfortunate accidents, that
have happened.
Andrew (19:12):
So I worked at a regional, you know this. I
worked at a regional before theairline that I'm at now, and the
propeller jets, the small jets,it's, it's not, I mean, it's not
safe on any ramp, but like,those propellers do not make
life any safer for anyone outthere. No, they don't. And those
cargo bins are so much smaller.
Kenturah Johnson (19:32):
Crouching down, right? I
Andrew (19:35):
don't even like carrying my own bag through an airport,
let alone other people's like,100 million pound bags that
they're like, it's fine
Kenturah Johnson (19:41):
and it's not fine for everyone listening,
it's not fine. It's
Andrew (19:44):
not it's not. No,
Kenturah Johnson (19:46):
you're cheap.
Check your bag. Don't be cheap.
You know, your credit cardsallow two free bags. So, so
true. Handle it. Don't do it.
Rich (19:57):
So your early days of flying, what was that like? What
favorite trip memories oranything fun from flying?
Kenturah Johnson (20:04):
Oh my gosh. My early days of flying, I was
based in Roanoke, Virginia. Thead said, Philly. I was in
Roanoke. Funny how that works. Iwas in Roanoke with a crash pad
with like four other people. Andthen I learned I could call
reserve and like same Philly,you know? And I was like, Oh,
what is this, this flightattendant? What is this life? It
(20:27):
was rough. I gained a lot ofweight, like the flight
attendant 40, like the freshman50, or whatever. I gained a lot
of weight. Yeah, it's a realthing. Yeah, it was. I had a lot
of fun.
Andrew (20:38):
Though. Were you in a crash pad with other flight
attendants. Those are myfavorite.
Rich (20:44):
It wasn't my favorite. Why is that your favorite?
Andrew (20:48):
Well, I was being a smarter, like, first of all, Oh,
my favorite. I was like, I'mworried about you couldn't do
it. Sounds like my worstnightmare. I never did it. I had
a crash pad, but it was like aprivate room in someone else's
apartment. So I couldn't I.
Couldn't do it. But everyonethat had those, like, flight
attendant, they all have crazystories. And I'm like, How do
you do this?
Kenturah Johnson (21:07):
No, that's why. So, like, that was only
temporary when I had to bethere. Otherwise, I was in
Philadelphia, right? I had myown apartment from when I was a
manager, so, like, and then Imoved on my stuff to my parents
house. And then I, yeah, I just,you know, made it happen.
However, I made it happen. Howold were
Andrew (21:24):
you when you started flying 2008
Kenturah Johnson (21:28):
years ago?
Maybe I just turned 39 so 31Okay,
Rich (21:32):
yeah. And at that point in life, too, like, sharing a crash
pad with other people, you'relike, I'm too grown for this.
Yeah,
Kenturah Johnson (21:37):
I was also in the military, and I had to,
like, share, like, smallquarters, like, I'm good, yeah,
yeah.
Andrew (21:46):
I was a baby when I started, and it was still not,
it was still no for me, like,fresh out of college, still
couldn't do, like, that dormlife with all the flight
attendants. Yeah, it was, and
Kenturah Johnson (21:55):
I was in boarding school. So, like, good.
Rich (21:58):
You have done your time.
Kenturah Johnson (22:02):
I've shared, I've shared all the
Rich (22:04):
things give me my space.
Yeah, I don't blame you,
Kenturah Johnson (22:07):
no, but early flying was fine. I just, I the
my very first day in training, Icame correct with, like, the
things in my blush, my mascara,my lipstick and some two inch
heels, in fact, because you hadto, because I had to, and then
I, like, was like, I'm not gonnawear heels. And so they're like,
Okay, you can wear flats. Ipushed back right away, good. So
(22:29):
I was in flats by like, thefirst day of training.
Rich (22:32):
That's good. Yeah, I'm glad you were able to win that
battle, because, I mean,airlines are still so strict
about certain uniformguidelines, it's crazy. Yeah,
when so, I mean, I'm assumingthat was part of your motivation
to get started with union work.
But what, when did you firststart getting involved with AFA
and union work? Flight Attendantwise, I know you were union in
(22:52):
other jobs before, but yeah,specifically flight stuff.
Kenturah Johnson (22:58):
I think the first time that I really got
involved was the uniforms forsure, one because how it
happened. It's not supposed tohappen. But there's someone who
encouraged to get a few sizesbigger, because they said that
we would gain weight. Oh, yeah,they knew. They knew it was
(23:19):
coming, yeah. But also, like,you don't know my life, right?
How about we not do that, right?
And you're not paying for myuniform, so, but also just
wanting to, like, be me, and,like, present how I wanted to
present. And then I found outthat one of the instructors was
able to have the male uniform.
And I said, Hey, how caneveryone get that, right? Yeah.
And so at first I had to, like,email my manager, and then they
(23:41):
opened the website for like, afew hours. I'm like, This is
ridiculous. And so fighting tomake sure everyone was able to,
like, choose what they wanted tobut then telling everyone about
it so that they could also goand be like, hey, yeah, was big.
Rich (23:54):
Because even when they do allow for these things to
happen, they always make sure toadd in red tape and hoops to
jump through and things likethat. They're not going to make
it easy for you. No, they wantyou to really think about what
you're doing and make you feelbad about it. It's like they're
trying to shame people to notbeing
Kenturah Johnson (24:12):
themselves correct. And it's a problem.
It's a huge problem. It's a hugeproblem. So we're fighting so
that that can happen and thatshouldn't happen. And like,
yeah, people should be able to,like, show up how they want, as
their authentic self, but beseen and respected just as that
and like, they can do their job.
They do their job right.
Andrew (24:32):
And throwing in a couple, like, gender neutral
uniform pieces is not enough.
Like, if you're listening, letpeople wear what they want to
wear to work.
Kenturah Johnson (24:42):
Thank you. And maybe some sneakers sometimes
too.
Andrew (24:45):
Oh, my God, I just ordered some sneakers for work.
They're all black leather.
Rich (24:48):
I'm so excited. Have you seen some of these? Like, it's
usually lower cost carriers, butlike on international airlines,
they have these, like, cutesporty suits with, like, the
sneakers, they look good. Theylook comfortable.
Unknown (25:03):
Yeah. Yes, yeah, they
Rich (25:08):
look amazing. I'm like, cute. It is 2025, we need to let
some of these standards go Nofor real. Great. So first role
in AFA, what was your first?
Kenturah Johnson (25:17):
My first role was local council vice
president, okay, at Piedmontcouncils.
Rich (25:23):
I mean, that's a pretty big deal to start right out,
yeah,
Kenturah Johnson (25:27):
someone was president. They were tired. They
asked, you know, and said, Yeah,I could, you know, do a little
something. And then I was vicepresident. And then, like, then
she was tired, so then I becamepresident, and then I just ran.
But also, like, saw a lot ofthings, like, I'm a black woman
who flies for a small carrierinto some small places, you know
(25:48):
what I mean, where we're notseen and respected as we should
be. And so like, letting thecompany know, like, Hey, we're
not going to take that shit. Andwe also know who you hire,
right?
Rich (25:58):
Are you talking specifically about, like,
passengers? Co workers,passengers, all of the above.
Kenturah Johnson (26:05):
You know, it's like, we hope, and we want to be
able to get along with all ofour co workers. But the reality
is, like, not everyone'saligned. And like, that's the
reality of things right now. Youknow what I mean. And like, we
hope that we can be aligned onissues of human fucking rights,
basic human decency is real,basic love and care, looking out
(26:26):
for one another. But it seemslike some people are still a
little bit discon disconnected.
Rich (26:31):
That's something that's always fascinated me about the
flight attendant profession andpeople who aren't in this
industry. I feel like make theseassumptions that all flight
attendants have this like grandworldview, and everyone is very
open minded and accepting andloving. And I think even some of
these flight attendants thinkthat they are. They're like,
it's like, that token situationwhere they're like, oh, I have a
(26:53):
gay friend or whatever. Likethey they don't realize what
their thoughts and actions like,how they're not lining up. You
know, it's like, they thinkthey're this wonderfully open
minded person, and then they saysomething off the cuff. And
you're like, wait a minute. Youjust told me you were open
minded and liberal and whatever,and you just said something
really closed minded andhateful. And it's like, people
need to I don't know. You thinkthere would be more
(27:17):
understanding among ourcolleagues than there is
Kenturah Johnson (27:20):
no that is true. And I know because, like,
we represent a very diverseunion, and for sure, folks from
all different walks of life andrepresentation does matter. But
I also I grew up overseas inKenya. I grew up as
missionaries. I grew up with abunch of white people around me.
(27:41):
We first got to Kenya, I askedmy parents, if we're in Africa,
then why are all these whitepeople here? So, like, I'm very
familiar with, like, whitesavior. And so like, Yeah, but
also, people don't know whatthey don't know, right? And so
like, I've had conversationswith people who don't look like
me. You know what I mean to belike, Hey, what's going on,
right? And I always wear, like,my bigger repellent, as I call
my pens, so that people know,like, either you're seen or,
(28:03):
like, Don't come to me with thatbullshit, not today. But it is.
It does suck, because witheverything going on, like, we
shouldn't be having to havethese conversations, but like,
we still have to have theseconversations. And that's why
I'm really thankful for like,Sarah and and Dante, because,
like, we all have the samemessage, but we all deliver it
(28:23):
very differently, and we allhave different clientele, and we
did, you know, we all havedifferent folks who receive us.
And like, Sarah lets me go off.
Like, going off too, you know,like, but no, but I also think,
like, that's why people respectus too, because, like, we say
things, but like, it's not justfor one person, it's like for
everyone, yeah, we're not justtalking for one group of people,
(28:43):
right?
Rich (28:45):
Everyone? Yeah. And then you're you hit the nail on the
head with the three of youdelivering it differently and to
different people, becausedifferent types of people are
going to listen to you,different types of people are
going to listen to Sarah, justdifferent types of people are
going to listen to Dante, andlike, you need all of those
people to be represented inorder for there to be changed.
Because, you know, there'salways going to be space for
(29:06):
people like Sarah, and therealways needs to be space for
people like you, like they thoseall the different types of
voices need to be there in orderto be heard by
Andrew (29:15):
everybody. And we work together, and we watch AFA
closely. I mean, we work withAFA. I am an AFA member for
life. He is correct. He is anhonorary
Kenturah Johnson (29:29):
wearing his pen, if I may say today, he is
because no shade. You know, I becoming to my pins.
Andrew (29:37):
I'm gonna go there in a minute. But I really, I truly
applaud all three of you at themoment, because I really love
that you celebrate each other'sdifferences and the way that you
all represent each otherdifferently. Because it's not
like no one's telling anyoneelse in the office to, like,
slow down or temper yourselves.
You're all hyping each other upand being like, go out there and
(29:59):
fight the way you fight. And I,I love to see that all of you
are celebrating each other'spersonalities right now. Nothing
really makes me very happy. No,
Kenturah Johnson (30:07):
it's great.
And I'd be texting Sarah, like,When can I pop off? Like, when
shit like,
Rich (30:13):
I've scheduled it for these hours.
Andrew (30:15):
And truthfully, I love to see you in particular, out in
these streets. Like, honestly,you are on every picket line.
There is no union activism thatyou're not we talked with Sarah
about building power, and Ithink she is a representation of
that, but you are truly theembodiment of that. For me,
because I see you on everypicket line. There is no like,
(30:38):
there is no cause that you arenot ready to back or figure out
how to back, or how to supportsomebody to get their cause
where they want it to go. And Ijust, I'm such a fan,
truthfully.
Rich (30:50):
Thank you. Yeah, adding on to that, I love it, because
people, you know, our flightattendants, love to say, like,
where's our union? What are theydoing? And I'm like, go to
couture. His Instagram. Have youseen her? She. Is out doing
something right now. I promiseyou, she's fighting for
somebody, with somebody near,somebody, about somebody, like
it's happening out here rightnow. So, yeah, I love the
(31:10):
visibility that you have broughtto the union that I don't think
we've seen before, like beforethis current, you know, trio of
you guys, I feel like you'vejust brought so much visibility
to the table, because
Andrew (31:22):
literally, all of you are out in the streets. I mean,
Dante is out of the office morethan he's ended at this point.
You know what? I mean, we just,I truly love to see how much you
all are out there, trulyrepresenting us. And you know,
I'm gonna move backwards. Youwere talking about your pins.
You I don't think people reallydon't I. I think people forget
(31:44):
how important it is, because weall want to be represented. And
I think,
Rich (31:51):
are you pulling out more pins?
Unknown (31:52):
I Yes,
Kenturah Johnson (31:55):
but they're special pins. Sorry, there's
Rich (31:56):
no shortage of pins.
Andrew (31:57):
These are my favorite. I have one on my lunch box, and I
get so many questions about itall the time. And I'm like, you
just don't even know. Even know.
You have no idea. But anyways, Ilove the pins. It's not even
just the AFA ones, like, Ialways have a rainbow one on me.
I love that we have so many ofthe diversity pins these days
because it really helps peopleto be seen and felt and heard.
And, you know, I wear a pronounpin on my uniform, just because
(32:20):
people need to know they're in asafe space.
Kenturah Johnson (32:25):
And like people recognize our pen, they
know our pen. Here's a quickveteran pin plug. So for those
of you listening, if you're aveteran and you fly, please
reach out. I have a very specialveteran pin that was created for
veterans. So yes, please makesure that you get your veterans
pen.
Rich (32:44):
That's amazing. I
Andrew (32:45):
love that I have one because I carry them with me. I
almost wore it today for thatreason, because I was going to
plug it. So I'm glad you
Kenturah Johnson (32:53):
have them with you for veterans only, find
yours,
Andrew (32:56):
and that respectfully, is why I did not wear it,
because I am not a veteran, andI did not feel like I had the
right to put it on today. Heknows his place, my place in the
world, no, but it's not. It'snot for me. I carry them to hand
out to people who are veterans,but I was gonna wear one today.
And then I was like, should Iwear it? And I was like, I
(33:17):
don't. I don't think this is forme. And Rich was like, it's not.
Don't
Kenturah Johnson (33:20):
do it. No.
Just so that everyone knows whenyou go online, there's a
website, but, like, it'scurated. So like, you tell us a
little bit about yourself, andthen I send a hand written card
and a pen to your house. Sothat's amazing. It's not like,
just like, it's, this is specialshit. I love that. This is just
like from my office, only
Rich (33:38):
speaking of your office, going, following along on your
AFA journey, you were the firstqueer woman of color elected to
any office in AFA that high,right?
Kenturah Johnson (33:48):
Yes, it's been a crazy three years, and some
change. It all happened veryquickly. I think I've said that
this is the most respected andlike disrespected I've ever,
like felt in a position by,like, respected because, like, I
get a lot of respect because ofthe position and things like
that, but also disrespect,because I'm a black woman, and,
(34:09):
like, disrespect, like, whenthey see, you know, Sarah,
whatever, and then like, Sarahwill send them back to me, and
then like, they come back withtheir trouble to me, you know,
but it's like, it's just like,but it's like, basic human, you
know, it's been good. It's beentiring, it's been challenging,
but it's been fucking fantastic.
This is, yeah, I feel at home. Ifeel seen. I feel so fucking
seen, but I feel honored tolike, make sure that other
(34:32):
people can be seen andrespected. And like, knowing
that our Union's like, makingchange, and people are like,
know about our union, and knowabout like, their rights in our
job, in our career.
Andrew (34:44):
You know, I think we often thank Sarah for that, but
I think you have a lot to beyou're a big part of this, and
the fact that we are seenbecause you're out so many
places, yeah. I mean, reallyworking for
Kenturah Johnson (34:57):
people, yeah.
I mean people I don't know. I'velived a lot of lives. And like,
when people are hurting, like Ifeel fucking hurt, and like, in
Philly, people hurt, and solike, all over right now, people
are hurting. People are hurtingin a way like we've never seen.
Times are not good right now.
They're not the best.
Rich (35:15):
No, no, they're really not. And people are really
emboldened to just spew hatelike they've never been
emboldened before, and it's wildto watch. You talked a little
bit about that with this role,like, you're respected and
disrespected more than you'veever been like as a black woman
in this role. Like, what? How doyou cope with that? Like, what
(35:36):
are, how do you take that in andcontinue doing what you're doing
in
Kenturah Johnson (35:42):
face of that, yeah, like, I've lived a lot of
lives, like I've done, I've seena lot of things. Like, I'm a
fucking veteran, I fucking, Iwas adopted and found my
biological family, but on myown, like, I've done a lot of
things, and so, like, what dothey say? Sticks and stones?
Well, whatever. But like, like,yeah, people like, I. Don't
know. I just don't let it botherme. People will learn, yeah, I
(36:05):
don't know. Might be a shittyanswer, but
Rich (36:07):
no, I mean, it's a real answer. You can't let
Kenturah Johnson (36:10):
it Yeah, I can't let like, if I'm like,
maybe I've learned to have toughskin. Like, yeah, I don't know.
You just, you gotta let youjust, I just got to keep going
like, I don't have it. I can'tright, I can't, right, yes,
Rich (36:22):
that's no, that's fair. I mean, you've lived 1000 lives at
this point and been through somany different experiences, like
you must have the toughest ofskins
Andrew (36:31):
and caught on your they're gonna learn. Because I
just I know you as a human, andI know you're teaching people,
like I've seen you out working.
And I know that you it's notjust they're going to learn,
because you are schooling peopleeverywhere you go, well,
Kenturah Johnson (36:46):
they're going to learn and they're going to
come Correct, correct. So I'vebeen saying come correct or
don't come at all. That's themotto, right now, like, come
correct or don't come at all,right? Because what else are we
doing, honestly, right?
Rich (36:57):
I like that. I do because you should, yeah, what are some
things that you think we couldbe doing better to speak up in
the workplace. I mean, you know,they give us, like trainings and
modules and things, and thosefall on deaf ears, like the
people that should beunderstanding those modules
don't. What do you think aresome good ways to like, stop
(37:19):
somebody in their tracks and belike, actually,
Kenturah Johnson (37:22):
I think people just need to start having
conversations with each other.
People are so afraid to talkbecause they're afraid of, like,
saying the wrong thing, whichis, like, I appreciate you of
being cautious, but like, butthen, if we're always gonna be
afraid, then are we ever gonna,like, right? Get past it.
Education is great, wearingthings, speaking out, just
(37:42):
saying something like, if yousee some fucked up shit, speak
out on it. Like, if you see somebeing fucking misgendered, say
something like, if you you knowwhat I mean. If you see a person
of color, you know what I mean.
If you see people in vulnerablesituations, vulnerable people in
vulnerable situation, speak upand say something. And if you
(38:03):
can, like, like, I said, useyour privileges, power. Wear a
shirt, wear a pen, you know whatI mean? Just like, do whatever
you can.
Rich (38:11):
Yeah, that's a good point, especially with our uniforms.
Like pens are one of the fewways we have to express
ourselves without, you know,breaking some sort of crazy
airline uniform rule. So yeah,and speaking up. I think people
don't realize how importantspeaking up is. And like you
said, people are afraid to bewrong, but you have to sometimes
(38:33):
say the wrong thing to learn toget somewhere. Like, I mean, as
a white gay man, I feel like youknow you think, Oh, I'm open
minded, and I know all thethings about something, and then
you say something in your life,and it's like, sometimes you got
to learn the hard way and belike, hello, there's other
perspectives. There's otherworld views. And I feel like
there's a lot of communitieswithin the queer community,
(38:56):
white gay men that really justhave this perspective sometimes
that like they're, what'd yousay, I said we can speak on
Yeah, but just like that, youknow that they think, Okay,
well, I'm a gay man. I couldnever be, you know, racist or
transphobic or anything likethat, and or vote for Trump or
Right exactly. And I think it'sjust you've got to address those
(39:18):
things and talk about them whenyou see them in order for people
to change their perspective.
Kenturah Johnson (39:25):
I mean, people don't know what they don't know,
but at a certain point, if youdon't fucking know what's going
on, and you're not activelydoing something to to, like,
educate yourself, right, orfight back, then we're like,
right? That's when, like,
Andrew (39:42):
100% agree, because I think that's part of the work
that you're doing. Because Ithink that as flight attendants,
we, a lot of us, come frommarginalized communities, and
people don't realize that we getput in unsafe situations that we
didn't really ask for. Like, Ican't avoid going to a certain
state or that doesn't, you know,accept me as a human I think
(40:07):
that the general populationdoesn't know that marginalized
communities get forced to goplaces that there that aren't
safe for them. Yeah, a lot ofthe time. Yeah, I
Kenturah Johnson (40:16):
feel like flight attendants within
different carriers, and justlike, within the union, like,
are also but I think they'restarting to, like, realize their
power and their strength. Youknow, people are like, wait a
second, wait a second, yougetting screwed too, right?
Yeah, they're gonna bring up,yeah, oh, you got trans, oh,
(40:38):
you're a vet, yeah? And like,people are realizing that we
have more in common. Yeah, andlike, Wait a second.
Rich (40:44):
Well, the sad part is, as more and more people get screwed
over by the situations and thegovernment and the things that
are happening in our societytoday, the more people are
starting to be fed up with it.
So, you know, there's at leastsome silver lining to that,
where people are finally like,you know what, I'm fed up. And
I'm gonna stand up with you,because this is bullshit. Like
seeing people, that's one of myfavorite things, is seeing
(41:05):
people from differentcommunities standing up for
communities that are differentthan them, like without any real
they're not getting anything outof it. They're doing it because
they see what's fundamentallywrong with what's happening. For
example, ice taking people outof communities, and they're
standing up and they're sayingthings, and they're not just
being innocent, you know, by orbystanders and just watching
(41:28):
what happens like they're beingactive, engaged citizens. And
it's those moments are giving mea little bit of hope for
humanity. It's tough holding onto that little bit of hope for
sure. Good god, there's no seguehere. I don't know, but what are
some of your proudest moments atAFA, I mean, what are some
(41:52):
things that you've done? Whatare some things that you've
done? What are what are youproud of over the last few
years, whether personally orprofessionally. Like, what are
some things you've done thatyou're just really proud of?
Kenturah Johnson (42:08):
I'm really, like, proud of our union and
like, fighting and using theirvoices and like people who
didn't know they had a voice,you know what? I mean, who
didn't know they had rightswithin their union, who didn't
know our human rights and equitycommittee has been doing a lot
of work to make sure to makesure that like people are seen
and like people think it's a gaycommittee, like that was so gay.
Now we do more than just likegay, right? But fighting back,
(42:31):
like the passport ban was anissue with gender markers and
like we were on top of thatshit, like it's our fucking
livelihood. Like people forget,you know what I mean? Like, we
move everyone. We move people inand out, you know, and so
letting people know that, like,we have power, and like
educating people about our jobthat people don't know, I think,
(42:54):
has been really great. But also,just like seeing us come
together through the past year,since the crash happened in
January since, like, everything,I'm just like, attacks on our
union, attacks personal attackson, like, friends that we love,
you know what I mean? And justlike seeing people like, stand
up, and like the conversation wejust had about, like, how not
everyone's aligned, and likeseeing people be able to, like,
(43:16):
show up for people, even if theydon't understand why right now
and then, like, using that tohelp them. I think I say
sometimes, like, we got to,like, drag people, and then,
like, pull them, you know, pullthem as much as we can, because,
like, people are tired. It'sexhausting. We have to keep
going, because it's like, it'snever ending, right?
Rich (43:37):
Yeah, and not everybody has that privilege to just be
like, it is what it is like alot of people have to continue
fighting, even when they'reexhausted and don't feel like
they can go on anymore. Yeah,and we all have to keep fighting
with those people.
Andrew (43:50):
Yeah, for sure, I don't want to keep fan girling over
here, but the HRE committee isone of my favorite things that
you do. I've personally learneda lot like I kind of alluded to
it earlier, but going places wedon't necessarily want to go,
like as a female, going intoplaces that you're not
respected, your body's notrespected, like if something
(44:12):
happens to you and you have togo to a hospital in a place
where you have to make, youknow, decisions like the
awareness that's that that thatcommittee has brought, even to
me, about that issue, likebathrooms and airports and
people just feeling safe to goto bathrooms. I mean, we did a
whole campaign on finding genderneutral bathrooms in airports.
Kenturah Johnson (44:35):
Kansas City is great, by the way. Oh, are they?
Oh, my gosh, yes. Okay, that'sgreat, like, big and bold gender
neutral restrooms.
Andrew (44:44):
Like, I love that, because they're generally, like,
hidden inside of a genderedbathroom. You
Rich (44:49):
mentioned that because I've had a lot of Kansas City
layovers this year, and I walkedby them, and I have flown with
so many crew members that havesaid something like, Well, you
know, does it need to bewhatever? And I was like, why
does this affect you? How isthis affecting you gendered in
the first right, truthfully? Andthis, this drives us nuts
(45:12):
anyway, when you go to, like,those restaurants or places that
have two just single usebathrooms, and it's like, why is
one of these female and one ofthese male? Why does the
bathroom need to have a gender.
Kenturah Johnson (45:21):
So a lot of places are changing. They are
just use whatever fuckingbathroom you want. Oh, yep.
Rich (45:26):
Well, do you have any advice that you advice or words
of wisdom that you would give toany, let's say, New Hire flight
attendants or aspiring flightattendants for how to do this
job in this crazy world that welive in, things you wish you
knew when you started,
Kenturah Johnson (45:44):
ooh, definitely wear your pen. That's
like a given. I remember I putmine on right after my new
higher class kept that shit onever since. Get involved in your
union. If you have issues, bringthem forward.
Rich (45:58):
Advocate for yourself.
For. Yeah, it's the best thingyou can do.
Kenturah Johnson (46:02):
Use your voice. Use your voice. Use your
voice. Use your voice. Yeah.
Rich (46:06):
Well, you said, Sarah always gives you a chance to go
off before we wrap up our show.
Is there anything you want to gooff about?
Kenturah Johnson (46:16):
I mean, there's so many things that I
want to go off about, but, Imean, there are some things that
I always say, which is, protecttrans folks, fight and save
lives, respect veterans. Phillyis a union town. And also, if
you did not know, also, Phillyis a woman sports town and watch
party. Phil watch party PHL, runby my buddy Jen Larry and her
(46:40):
people are starting like women'ssports activity. Maybe that's
another way to say it. Well, Idid that as well. Anyways,
please go to Instagram andfollow watch party PHL, or watch
party PHL. Watch party PHL, forall things women's sports in
Philadelphia,
Rich (46:59):
we're gonna go follow them right now and make sure we
watch. So before we go, we wantto play a quick round of a game
that we play with all of ourguests called cross checked. And
we are going to give you 10rapid fire questions. Just say
the first thing that comes toyour mind, are you ready? All
(47:20):
right, window or aisle, aisle,Airbus or Boeing Embraer 145
love hotel or Airbnb. Oh,Marriott queen,
Andrew (47:31):
favorite layover city,
Kenturah Johnson (47:32):
Syracuse, New York, all right, oh, God, that
all this, I'm not good at thisgame. Favorite airport, I bang
with Philly a lot.
Andrew (47:48):
It's mine. So I get that least favorite airport,
Charlotte, that's correct.
Kenturah Johnson (47:53):
God. What is going on over there?
Rich (47:56):
Go to go to snack while flying flips, but covered
Kenturah Johnson (48:00):
pretzels, not the for sure. And chewy, chewy
sweethearts, favorite
Andrew (48:06):
song on your travel playlist? I don't know
Rich (48:10):
favorite song right now, currently listening to
Kenturah Johnson (48:14):
No, but are you familiar with G flip? Yes.
Okay, so I met them the othernight. No shit, yeah, they were
in Philly. What, what? Yeah,they were, they had a, were they
doing a show here? Yeah. So Iwent. I got to
Rich (48:27):
meet. We missed everything. G, flip, one item
that's always in your carry on,pins, a of a pins, I love, love
you for this
Andrew (48:36):
place you've always wanted to visit.
Kenturah Johnson (48:40):
Ooh, Montana,
Rich (48:43):
love it. Love that amazing. Well, check out
Montana.
I don't know, katura, we want tothank you so much for coming on
the show and being here on ourpodcast and for supporting all
things. To guys on the plane,you're amazing, and you're doing
incredible work out there. Sothank you for being on the show.
Andrew (49:05):
Yes, thank you so much for being here with us. We
appreciate you so much and thework that you do every day and
your visibility for all thingsflight attendant related, we
appreciate you a lot.
Kenturah Johnson (49:16):
No, thank you guys for having me. It's always
a blast to kick it with you all.
So yeah,
Andrew (49:23):
go birds. Go birds join us next time for more humor,
heart and stories from ourbeverage cart. This
Rich (49:29):
episode was brought to you by staff traveler, the number
one non rev app if you travel onstandby tickets and are looking
to make your journey easy andstress free, check out the staff
traveler app in the Apple AppStore or Google Play Store,
visit staff traveler.com/twoguys to learn more and sign up
Buzz Burbank (49:47):
an ironic media production. Visit us at I R O N,
I C, K, media.com, you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.