Labor, Unity, & The Power of Flight Attendants: A Conversation With Sara Nelson

Episode Transcript
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Andrew (00:00):
You ever wondered what your flight attendants are
really talking about behind thegalley curtain? Welcome to Two
guys on a plane. Your go topodcast for an insider look at
flight attendant life. We'reyour hosts, rich and Drew and
we're here to tell you whatreally goes on at 35,000 feet.
So sit back, relax. We're readyfor takeoff. Welcome back to two

(00:22):
guys on a plane. We are soexcited for today's episode in
studio with us, we have a veryspecial guest. Most of you are
probably very familiar with thisperson. She has been a flight
attendant for almost 30 years.
She is currently theinternational president for the
Association of flightattendants, representing 55,000
flight attendants at what 20airlines. I believe New York

(00:44):
Times has called her America'smost powerful flight attendant.
She is a fearless labor leader,and we are so excited to have
her in studio with us today.
Please welcome Sarah Nelson,welcome Sarah. Thank you. Thank
you so

Sara Nelson (00:59):
much. Andrew. No, I'm happy to be here because,
you know, every single day whenI need to pick me up, two guys
on a plane comes into my VI, allI do is open that up and I get
my little laugh. And yes, you'reright, I don't usually comment
because it probably is somethingsort of slightly inappropriate,
but super funny. And thank you.
And so I'm happy to

Andrew (01:19):
comment, but you can start texting us what your
comment would be, because I feellike I need to giggle from you.
We will not use it against you.
We promise. We are loyalfollowers. Well, Sarah, we
normally do an icebreaker. Sowe'll start by saying thank you
so much for being here. Weappreciate your time and
traveling to be with us today.
We generally start each episodetalking about trips we've worked

(01:42):
recently, or some sort ofmemorable passenger moment we
have. So I guess that's ourquestion for you. Is there over
30 years? Is there like apassenger or crew or some
memorable airplane moment that,like stands out to you? Oh

my gosh, Whenever someone asks me this, I can't,
of course, we always go to thenegative. I know it's hard, so I
can't help but think about thislike wild flight that I had. We
loved one. It was a Vegas allnighter, Chicago.

Andrew (02:12):
Honestly Say no more. We all know what we're in for.

And I was working with two flight attendants who
it was their first week on thejob. Okay, so we're on 37 so I'm
working out front, and they'reboth working in the back. So the
plane was completely full, andthere were families, and I don't
know, there was, like, a lot ofmature women who clearly went

(02:36):
for their gambling weekend inVegas or something. I don't
know. Anyway, it was just like,not the typical mix. It was all
families and like, sort of, youknow, on the more mature side,
women who were fairly slight intheir build, and except for this
one guy who came on the plane,and he was maybe six, seven,

(02:57):
around 330 and I knew there wassomething a little off. But you
know, when there's a whenthere's a full flight, like you
don't, you don't have that muchtime to interact, right? So
right away, after we got up inthe air, the flight attendants
from the back call me and say,someone's smoking in the
bathroom. And then itprogressed. I mean, the story
could go on forever, becauseit's this whole saga, but I had

(03:19):
to keep calling the pilots andsaying, Hey, we have a problem.
We have a problem. This guy. Imean, he smoked in the bathroom,
first of all, and then he spreadsoap all over the bathroom. Oh,
no, I might be getting this outof order. He urinated all over
the bathroom with the door open.
And then I think he spread soapeverywhere to try to help, I
don't know. And then he wastrying to open the airplane
door. So this was, now I'mspending my entire time just

(03:41):
reporting to the flight deck andsaying, what's going on, because
we have to decide, like, youknow, does it get to a point
where you got to divert, like,sort of control? Yeah,

Andrew (03:51):
it sounds like we're getting close to that.

So, so I didn't even have time, really to go
back there. I mean, clearly hewas on something, and we didn't
have a chance to see that or,you know, we didn't have, we
didn't have experienced eyes onit before the flight. To keep
him off the flight. I finally goback to check out this
situation. And as I'm goingback, I'm looking for my helper
passengers. And there was noone. It was families and, like,

(04:16):
these smaller

Andrew (04:17):
women, and where's my backup for this six, seven guy?
Yeah.

And so, you know, before I became a flight
attendant, I trained to be ateacher. So I was like, Well,
I'm just gonna have to handleit. And after he tried to open
the airplane door, like that waskind of the end of it, the
pilots were like, Yeah, we mayhave to think about diverting,
and we're looking at Des Moines.
So I went back there and I said,I said, you and when I got back
there, now he's doing a striptease for the family

Andrew (04:41):
in the aisles. That's exactly what you want. You need,
yes.

So I said, Hey, you in like my strongest teacher
voice, and I said, You need tosit down, keep your hands to
yourself, and you have adecision to make. We you are
going off this airplane inhandcuffs. You. You can either
do it in Chicago, or if youtouch one more person or get up
out of your seat, you're gonnado it in Des Moines. Des Moines,

(05:07):
you're going to jail in DesMoines. And I don't know, he
just was like, okay, and he satdown and sat there quietly for
the rest of the flight. We hadeverybody stay in their seats.
When we got to Chicago, thepolice came on, went to the
back, put him in handcuffs,walked him out. And, you know,
I'll never forget that, but thetwo flight attendants resigned
the next week. That

Andrew (05:28):
was gonna be my next question is, where are they now?
They're no longer flying here.
You set a precedence wherethey're just wandering through
airplanes being like, you sitdown or they resign. So that's,
I mean, that's so funny thisjob. I mean, it's not for
everybody. That's for sure. No,no, no, not for the faint of
heart. It's funny to me. And Ithink we all have that baby. I
really, I don't think yours isan isolated incident. Yeah, I

(05:51):
had him, that same guy, threeweeks ago.

Like, you know what? Though, since that time, I
really have to think about this,because the truth of the matter
is, actually one great thingabout this job is we do see all
of humanity. Yes, we lovepeople. We do. We love to
travel. We do. Really, do? Wereally do.

Andrew (06:11):
How long you've been flying when this Vegas incident
happened,

I think that was about five years. Okay,

Andrew (06:17):
yeah. So, yeah, five years. You're kind of alien.
You're ready to go. So so takeit back. You know, we to your
very beginning of your flyingcareer. And you know, we had you
featured on our flight attendantFriday series, which we love,
and we posted your story duringcovid, and people loved it. But
for those who don't know yourstory, tell us how you got
started in aviation. What firstdrew you to being a flight

(06:38):
attendant, what made you stickwith it. You know, to take us
back to the beginning.

Okay, all right, I'll try to do this really fast.
I didn't know anything aboutaviation or flying. I mean, my
family had taken trips, so I hadexposure to that. In fact, I can
remember when there was stillsmoking on planes flying to
London with my family and like,just so disgusting by the time
you get off the plane and barelybeing able to breathe while
you're on the plane, God blessthe flight attends. Who had to
work in those conditions. Butanyway, and are you in?

(07:05):
Successfully fought that and gotit out of our workplace, the
first, the first group to takeon big tobacco and win. It was a
big deal. And I think about thatall the time too, when we think
we're we're kind of small at55,000 but we're mighty. We're
mighty. So anyway, I wasstudying to be a teacher and
finishing up my studentteaching, and right after that,

(07:25):
I had a job lined up in St Louisfor the following year as a
teacher. But at the time, I wasworking for jobs, so I was doing
all those things. I was really,really exhausted and thinking
about setting up my teacherclassroom. And my girlfriend had
become a flight attendant, sortof on a lark. At the end of
college. She was my best friendin college. Chloe is her name,
and she called me. She got aninterview with United at the end

(07:49):
of our college career, and welaughed about it, how she was
only going to do this for acouple of years, how funny it
was.

Andrew (07:55):
You know, wasn't that everyone's goal, right? Yeah.

And so she calls me. She calls me on this snowy
day. I'll never forget it in StLouis. I was just miserable, and
it was working like crazy,right? I had just gotten my
first student loan bill thatday, and I'm thinking, like, how
am I gonna make ends meet? Andit was just pretty miserable.
And she said, Hi, I'm comingfrom Miami Beach and with my

(08:21):
toes in the sand, and UnitedAirlines is paying for me to be
here. La, la, la. And I waslike, shut up. And so after she
got done rousing me, she waslike, No, this job is no joke.
And she she told me about thepay, which, at the time, was
more than my first year teacherpay was going to be. She told me
about the health care that hadbeen negotiated by women, so it

(08:41):
actually covered women's issuesin healthcare. She told me about
the flexibility on the job, andshe told me about the pension,
and at 23 like working for jobsand trying to figure out how I
was gonna make it all work, I'mlike a pension that you can take
at age 50. That sounds funny,yeah, right. It's literally,

(09:01):
it's an odd thing, but thepension is what got me in my car
the next day to go to Chicago tointerview with United Airlines,
and then the rest of the story,frankly, and she was talking
about the flight attendantcontract, of course, like we
wouldn't have those things ifour union hadn't been
negotiating for 60 years at thatpoint. And so I got based in
Boston, and I got an apartmentwith seven of my classmates.

(09:25):
What everybody does when theystart out because you can't
afford to live, particularly ina city like Boston, I know Yes.
And so I started flying, andthey all got their first
paychecks. And I was like, yes,because my parents were not
talking to me, because they hadjust helped me go to this
liberal arts school that wasreally expensive, and they were
like, you're becoming a flightshow.

Andrew (09:43):
What's that about your parents still asking you when
you'll get a real job too? Youknow what? They

stopped asking that six months later, when they get
the flight benefits. They flewall over the world. I'll see how
that works. But anyway, so I wasnot asking them for any money,
and my bank account wasdwindling from the credit union
line. Loan that I had gotten,and I had $12 in my bank
account, and I went into theoffice to ask somebody if they
could help me with it, and theysaid, Oh, you get paychecks at
different times for differentreasons. We'll show you again.

(10:10):
It next time and on probation.
I'm screaming in my head, butI'm remembering, like, if
there's a hair out of place,they can let you go. So I mind
my P's and Q's and try to getby. I got to the next paycheck
period on a lot of top ramen.
And that day, as I was waitingfor the paycheck to drop, I jump
seated to Chicago and back sothey can eat some more plain
food. This is back when we serveit. And

Unknown (10:33):
so and relatable. Yeah.

And so I landed back at noon and checked my bank
account, and now my bank accountis zero. And so I went down into
office and said, somebody's gotto help me. And I started to get
some of the same rigmarole. Andit was the first time in my life
that I really understood what itmeant to be a number in an HR
file where nobody cares aboutyou. And so I, you know, I rent
was due the next day. Myroommates were counting on me. I

(10:58):
did not know how I was going toeat that day. I just, you know,
I started to cry and get alittle more upset, upset than
someone on probation should, andI have this tap on the shoulder,
and I turn around, there wassomeone standing there, another
flight attendant. I'll neverforget, she was just a line
flight attendant. She looked alot like me. I remember her AFA
pin above her wings, and shewrote me a check for $800 and

(11:21):
she said, number one, you takecare of yourself. And number
two, call our union. That'samazing. I did call our union. I
had my paycheck the very nextday. But I always tell everyone
that I learned everything Ineeded to know about our union
in that moment for sure, becauseas flight attendants, there's
very few people that are betterat taking care of other people,
and through our union, we can beorganized about that and get the

(11:41):
most out of it, totally. So theunion called me the next day,
and they said, so we hope towould you like to help out? And
I didn't know people said, No. Ialso was like, so honored for me
to help. You know, I'm like,I'll do the new hire
presentations. This shouldn'thappen to anyone. It turns out
actually a strong sense ofjustice and a loud mouth will

(12:03):
carry you very far, I believe.
And so, so that's how I gotinvolved. That's, that's really
the story. And there's, there'sa lot of other stories along the
way, but, yeah, that's what setit off.

Andrew (12:12):
Okay, that's amazing.
That's cool. I love flightattendants for that very reason,
though. Like, it really is themost beautiful and coolest thing
that these people you don't knowjust automatically show up for
you when you need the most andlike in ways that you don't even
know that you need. You knowit's like flight attends are
just find a way to anticipatewhat someone's going through and

(12:33):
what they need. And it'sbeautiful the way people

come for each other. They may not remember
your name, but they willremember in all of your stories,

Andrew (12:41):
all of your details, all of your insane details, no idea
what your name is, though, an

Unknown (12:46):
insightful response for you.
So funny. I'm

Andrew (12:51):
still back to this. I flew to Chicago to eat because
when I was a new hire, I flew toTokyo so I could sleep, because
it was like four, you're betweenshifts. And I flew to not Tokyo,
Okinawa. I flew to Japan becauseI got a fly flat. And so you fly
for a free hotel. Basically, yougot three meals and a hotel both

(13:13):
directions. This, these kind ofstories just fascinate and break
my heart, that people really andthey're still doing it. We're
still doing these things. Yes,

yes. Flight attendants are still doing it.
And you sort of wonder, like,what makes you do this? Like, I
was talking to a flight, I won'tsay the carrier, but I was, I
was talking to a flightattendant that's sort of a
bottom feeder in the industry.
And, you know, she was so shewas incredible, she I was just
watching her do her job, and shewas just flawless, graceful,
personified. And I, and I saidto her, and like, how long have

(13:45):
you been flying? She's like, 18months. Oh and, and I said, oh
and, how is it? Because I knewwhat she was making, right? No.
And I knew, I knew the kind ofnon flexibility that she had,
and all of the things, andbecause we were in a big
contract fight at the time,right and, and she said, you
know, she said, I've done otherjobs making even maybe a little

(14:07):
bit more than I'm making rightnow, but the difference is that
when I come to work and I havethese stripes on my uniform,
people treat me with respect,and they've not treat me with
respect in the retail job that Ihad, or in the service job that
I had, and and so I think flightattendants take a lot of pride
in the fact that, I mean, thetruth is, we're aviation first

(14:27):
responders. We have a reallyserious safety job. We're really
serious part of aviation. We'vedone a lot to raise the profile
of flight attendants so we cangain that respect from the from
the passengers, and I think thatthat people take pride in that.
But what our union needs to dois to make sure that airlines
don't take advantage of thepride that we take in our jobs,

(14:51):
because

Andrew (14:53):
they will Yes, and they do a lot. Unfortunately, they
know that we're give. The willgive. They know that we take
pride in what we do. They knowwe want. To offer a good
product. They know that we're acreative sort who will make
things

happen. And they're very quick to say, whenever we
have hiring, you know, there'slines around the back of people
who are, yeah, maybe

Andrew (15:13):
not. Maybe gaslighting them into thinking it's more
glamorous than it is.

Just saying, I love the old joke at the 30 year
flight attendant who's retiring,and she says, you know, or she
doesn't say anything on the PA,she gets down on her hands and
knees, and she crawls all theway to the back of the plane,
and then she gets on the PA, andshe says, for the passengers who
are wondering what I was doingon my hands and knees, she said,
Well, today is my last day, andI'm retiring, and I was just

(15:38):
looking for the fucking glamorthey promised me when they hired
me for

Andrew (15:42):
this job. I've never heard this story ever, and I
will use it forever from now on,because it's so true. Yeah. I
mean, it has its moments, likeyour I think about your friend.
You know, I'm in Miami Beach,and I have my toes in the sand
and I'm having the best dayever. Those moments are
beautiful, but they dodefinitely come with some work
and fall, yes,

and you know. And the other thing that I will just
say, though, is that some of myworst trips, my mom always says,
you know, the worst disastersmake the best stories later,
but, but which is true, butalso, if you like, you could
have the worst flight. And ifyou

Andrew (16:18):
have a good crew, oh, my God, we talk about this all the
time.

It doesn't work because even play exactly
because you let it

Andrew (16:27):
sit in the galley and you make a lifelong friend. And
that was more important thanserving a soda for 20 minutes
talking about trips, since we'reat the beginning, talking about
your story, take us back rightoff of IOE, that first trip.
Where were you What were youdoing? Oh, where was your
layover? Okay, so, how was yourcrew? Oh, my God, I remember

(16:48):
this trip. So many questionsabout all,

because I show up for work, and it was a really
senior trip. So I was very, verylucky. My first leg was on a
727, I'll never forget that. Ofcourse, it was with these two
women who had been flying forlike, 35 years. And obviously
the third woman who had beenflying for 35 years called in
sick that day. That's why I gotthe trip. But they showed up and

(17:13):
they were in an argument withthe supervisor in the office
about how the con how the tripwas gonna go. I mean, I just
stood there and waited, andwaited, and it was this big
conflict, and then one of themrealized that maybe I would be a
little off put by the conflict,and she pulls me aside, and she
says, Listen, management thinksof us as their wives. Oh, and
her voice was gravely, becausewe had just won the fight over

(17:33):
smoking, and she had hadsecondhand smoke her whole life,
but she said, management thinksof us as their wives or their
mistresses, and in either case,they hold us in content. And I'm
like, Woo, that's a lot 23 freshout of company training. But
then she said, your only placeof worth is with your fellow
flying partners, and if we sticktogether, there's nothing we can
accomplish. And these two womentaught me the tricks of the

(17:58):
trade. They had their cellophanewhere they were putting the food
into that for layers. They're ontheir layovers. They have their
bottles where they were like,Yeah, every little trick, oh my
god. This woman, like, she hadeverything in her bag. It was
amazing. So we went, my firstlayover was in Denver, Denver. I
and Denver was a brand newairport at the time, and, yeah,

(18:20):
and so I remember that. And theother layover that I had on this
three day trip was Portland,Oregon. And I'm from Oregon, so
it's like, it just felt, yeah,it felt like having sense. Very
cool.

Unknown (18:31):
That is cool, yes.

Andrew (18:33):
So you were talking about kind of how you got
inspired to get more involvedwith the union, and what got you
really moving?

So the first thing I did was the new hire buddy
program. And so I did all of theincoming orientations for people
who were based in Boston. So Iwould, you know, put together,
obviously, I would go over thecontractual things that were
immediately applicable to themto make sure they were getting
what they needed. But also Iwould put together, like, you
know, crash pads that they couldcall to get into other places

(19:04):
that were good to stay,information about the city, how
they get around, how the publictransportation works, what the
best doors were to go in toaccess everything, where you can
get a cheap meal, where you canget happy hour, all that stuff.
And so I did that, and then thatled to doing communications
locally in Boston. And then verysoon we were in contract
negotiations, and I was localstrike chair. And by the time I

(19:25):
was actually getting offprobation, I was already the
communications chair, and wewere in contract negotiations,
and I went from my probationaryexit interview out onto the
picket line and led cheers therest of the day. And then I will
just say this, we negotiated acontract a year later, after I
started and had a TA that Ithought stunk, and I worked
really hard to get it voteddown. So I was a big dissident

(19:48):
in the Union when I started,like I was a very loud mouth and
wanted things to change. Andhonestly, like, I still see
things that need to change andfix everywhere. But what I
learned. Learned in the processwas that it was a group of women
who had built this union, thatit was incredibly democratic. Is
just for flight attendants. Itreally puts the union in the

(20:10):
members hands, and as long aseverybody's participating, it
works really well. It's justlike democracy anywhere if you
don't have participation, itdoesn't work. But that's what
got me involved and moreengaged, and then people just
kept asking me to do the nextthing. And the next thing, I
served as the communicationschair at United Airlines for AFA
for the years of the bankruptcy,and I got a firsthand seat to

(20:35):
and let me just back up here fora second, because this was right
after 911 and so I was a localofficer in Boston when 911
happened, and flight 175 hit theSouth Tower of the World Trade
Center. And you know the huddlewill make friends on it. And you
can picture that flight becauseit was the second flight to hit

(20:55):
after American flight 11 had hitthe North Tower 17 minutes
earlier, and the so all thecameras were trained on that
site. So I know the exact momentthat Amy and Michael and Amy and
Katherine and Al and Alicia andRobert and Mary, Ann and Jesus
died, and they were amazingpeople. And what I didn't know

(21:17):
as we're grieving the loss ofthem and the change in our job
was that crisis capitalists weregetting to work to redefine the
value of a flight attendant, apilot, a mechanic, a gate agent,
any job that touched aviationthat day, because they knew that
this was going to be able toattack an industry that was
heavily unionized and change itjust like all the other

(21:37):
industries had been changed toput more money into Wall
Street's hands make us do morefor less, and I got a firsthand
seed to that in a very, verypainful way, and so I still say
all of their names every singleday, because that's really what
motivated me to get involved andto fight back. Because this

(22:00):
isn't just about flightattendants, right? And it's not
just about aviation, it's aboutlabor across this country. And I
always, you know, everybody hastheir own story, their own
losses. They can think aboutthey can picture their own
faces, about why they fight. Itell people a lot of times, I
tell women, especially, don't beafraid of your emotions. Your

(22:21):
emotions are your superpower,because it means you're going to
fight like hell for the peoplethat you love. And as long as
you can put that in check andand, and drive that towards that
fight it, they're good, yeah,and, and we shouldn't be
emotionless. That's ridiculous,and especially with what's going
on against working people in thelast 40 years, especially we

(22:43):
it's time to stand up, fight,organize, get together and fight
back against corporate

Andrew (23:49):
greed. Yeah, I completely agree. I think we put
so much emphasis on, you know,Don't be emotional. And for, you
know, men and women too. Like Iremember growing up, and
obviously I'm gay and was alittle more effeminate. And I
remember my mom being like, youknow, grow a pair like, you
know, man up, you're gonna getbullied. And it's like, I'm
emotional. I feel things and inthose harder moments of life,

(24:13):
like leaning on your emotionsand being able to be in touch
with them gets you places. Itgets you places. It motivates
you, it drives you. It helps youfind that reason for you know
why you're why you're doing whatyou're doing. Yeah, we are
criers. Yeah, we cry. I love it.
I cry. But also, I mean, even asmen, like we cry like I I get so
passionate about something that,like Tears are coming. Like it

(24:33):
just, it's what happens, yeah,particularly when it's so
personal for you. Yeah. I mean,it's not like, I mean, everybody
in all aviation was touched by911 but there are people that
work at United and American thatwere based in Boston or wherever
planes took off from. Those aretheir friends. Yeah? You know,
rich flew with and we'veinterviewed her for two guys for

(24:55):
an article that we did on ourplane. But Rich flew with
someone who swapped out of atrip. Yeah? And like, to know
that, to have that personalconnection, like those things
push you, particularly when youknow evil is happening behind
that, not just the granderscheme of things, but like,
you're talking about theretirement being taken away,
pensions taken away. Like, yeah,the evil that comes in the

(25:16):
aftermath of that. It's reallyhard to stomach when you're
grieving your friends,

yeah. And people ask, you know, how do these
people sleep at night? And I'lltell you, I had a group of
retirees during the UnitedAirlines bankruptcy come into
the office, and we were fightingto save retiree health care at
the time because United Airlinessaid, Oh, if you retire by the
state, you can keep the oldretiree health care. We're going
to change retiree health care inthe contract going forward. But

(25:43):
if you retire by the state andthen three months later, after
they got more flight attendantsto retire in that month alone,
in June, of 2003 than they hadin the entire history of United
Airlines, more than had retiredor died in the entire history.
Of United Airlines. Three monthslater, the CFO came back and

(26:03):
said, Oh, we made a financialmistake. We're gonna have to
change retiree healthcare now,after these people had already
retired, we were like, F No, oh,that's and so we fought it. We
fought it and and we so I hadthis group of retirees in the
office, and they were askingthat they're like, how do they
sleep at night? And I said, Youknow what? We're gonna go ask
the CEO. And we went on a littleroad trip over to world

(26:25):
headquarters, and we went inlike we were going to the
employee credit union, and thenwent up the stairs to the CEO's
office, and right then a firealarm was pulled. I don't know
how that happened, but you knoweverybody, it was very strange
that that happened right then,and everyone left the building.

(26:45):
And so the CEO was alone in hisoffice with explaining to these
six retirees who had seriousmedical conditions why he was
going to take away their medicalcoverage. So anyway, he finally
got some help and got, you know,them going out of the office.
And I turned around to look athim. He was a very short man, so
I could look at him directly inthe eyes. And I turned around

(27:07):
and I said, we're not done. Andhe say, and he and he said, he
said, you know, Sarah, I getletters all the time saying I'm
doing the right thing becauseI'm saving the company. And I
said, Well, that's thedifference between you and me.
I'm not gonna say his name.
That's the difference betweenyou and me. I live in a
democracy, and the majority ofpeople are with me and think
that you are being a greedybastard and you are a dictator.

(27:29):
So you can go ahead and saythat, but the people are with me
and so so much. But we need tounderstand they sleep just fine
on silk sheets.

Andrew (27:43):
Yeah, they sure do. Yes.
So disturbing. I know it's myturn. It's my turn to ask you a
question. I'm just super angryat the moment. I know now I want
to go find a CEO for life. Let'sgo.

There's new issues all the time I see going forward
too. We never had to bargain onstaffing before because the
airlines used to compete onservice, and they don't compete
on service anymore. Theycompete. In fact, this is
something that I would likepassengers to know.

Andrew (28:13):
That's literally my question. Go and Emma's gonna
ask, what's one thing you wishpassengers knew about the work
that we're doing.

Okay? So passengers should know that it's very
different business today, thatthey have put the seats closer
together, that this is our work.
Our workspace is your travelspace. We hate it. That means
there's more of you, less of us.
They've cut it down to FAAminimums everywhere for
staffing, which means that we'rehandling more passengers than

(28:44):
ever before in a cramped spacewith fewer tools, less food on
board, less entertainment, lessyou know, everybody is supposed
to bring on their own stuff now,and that means stuff everywhere
too.

Andrew (28:56):
They've taken out bulkheads, they've put seats in
galleys. They put jump seats onlab doors,

yes, and so we never used to have to bargain on
staffing, but we're gonna haveto bargain on staffing
Absolutely. I mean, it's justnot reasonable, right, that you
would staff some of theseairplanes as low as they do. And
you know? I mean, we don't eversay it's unsafe, but it is
certainly less safe with fewerflight attendants on board and

(29:22):
more passengers than we haveever had to deal with absolutely
anyway, that's what I wantpassengers to know, is that we
really want to help you. Wereally want to take care of you.
I used to welcome people onboard, and I take credit for
saving many marriages, becauseyou'd get people who come on
after a bad business deal, orthey came from a funeral, you
know, they're just upset aboutsomething, or they didn't like

(29:44):
being patted down at security orwhatever it is. And they get to
you have the time to interfacewith them. We don't have time to
interface with people anymore.
And I know that there werepeople who came on grumpy and
left smiling, and they didn't gohome and metaphorically kick the
dog or whatever. You know, Iassume that probably made it
better for the people that theywere going home to, but we don't
have that anymore. You know, theindustry has changed a lot, and

(30:05):
we still get to interface withpeople, but not like we used to,

Andrew (30:10):
right? No, not at all.
Yeah, 100% correct.

We're as frustrated as those passengers are every
day.

Andrew (30:18):
Well, so we know what you want passengers to know?
What would you like flightattendants. Know about the work
that you are doing for flightattendants, sure?

What are we working on? Okay, so a couple things.
First of all, I have learnedover the course of doing this
job that I cannot do what flightattendants want me to do without
coordinating with other unionsand, you know, promoting
organizing wherever we can,because what I see is the big
issues that people care about,you know, our retirement
security, our health care,whether or not we can have a

(30:49):
living wage and be in a homethat is near where we work.
Nobody can afford to live wherethey work, right? And that's not
just flight attendants. There'sother people who have to commute
three and four hours to theirjobs, and they're doing that.
You know, surfacetransportation, if it's
available anyway, these bigissues are things that we can't
take on alone in our contracts.
We have to build power asworking people to bring the

(31:09):
politics to us right. And onthat note, we are a non partisan
organization. It's really aboutbuilding that working people
power to make whatever party isin charge come to us and come to
our ideas and our agenda. And onthat note, what I would just say
is a lot of people think of meas their own personal union rep,
and that's very sweet, but alsoreally scary, because there's

(31:32):
55,000 and I can't absolutely somy job is to interface with all
things in Washington, right? Andthen also to oversee, like the
bargaining in general, and toand to interface with other
unions and to build powergenerally for flight attendants,
and also to be the spokespersonfor our careers. You know,

(31:53):
that's that's my job. We have avery Democratic Union, and each
flight attendant group at eachdifferent airline really gets to
decide what their bargainingpriorities are, how they're
going to move forward, howthey're going to communicate all
of those things. Sometimesthat's frustrating to me,
because I like everything to be,you know, just so but, but, you
know, it is democratic, and inthe union is in the hands of the

(32:15):
members, and there's probablysome things that members get

(32:53):
frustrated about that I'mfrustrated too. That's what I'd
like them to know, and thattogether, we can, you know,
everybody has a differentopinion. Everybody has a
different approach. I actuallythink that our different
opinions and our differentexperiences make us better,
because when you bring all ofthose things to the table, and
you hear everyone's voices,whether they're in on something
or they're out on something,whatever it's gonna it's gonna

(33:16):
come up with a different, abetter resolution, because at
the end of the day, we allessentially want the same thing.
We want to be able to makeenough money to live we want to
be able to have a home. We wantto want to be able to have a
trajectory in life where thingscan get better. We want to take
care of the people that we love.
You know, it's, it's, it's allreally the same. We have so much

(33:36):
more in common than anythingthat divides us, and we just
have to keep working on that andknow that it's within our union
of flight attendants, but alsothat that extends to every other
working person in the countryand around the world. Yeah,

Andrew (33:51):
yeah. That's one thing that I always find interesting,
is flight attendants love tosay, well, where's the union?
What is the union doing? And I'malways fascinated by that,
because I'm like, Well, have youtalked to, you know, so and so?
Have you talked to your basepresident? Have you talked to
your local council rep, or haveyou gone to the hotel committee
or the safety committee, orwhoever the person is

(34:12):
responsible for this issue? Andthey're like, Well, no, they
should just be doing this, andI'm like, we're the union. We're
all part of the Union. And it'slike, if you don't use your
voice and communicate with thesepeople and work as a team with
these union leaders that theydon't, they can't read your
mind, they don't know what'sgoing on. So I always encourage
people to get involved, be partof the Union. You are the union.

(34:35):
Yeah. Also,

there is a basic formula to getting change or to
getting results, or to, youknow, making solving problems
right. First, you have to definethe problem. So hello, we're in
a mobile workplace, and unlessit's on the evening news, if we
don't report it, it didn'thappen, right? And so we have to
report when things go wrong, oryou have a gripe, or whatever,

(34:56):
you have to set your demands.
And I always say that's reallyeasy. Just ask people, What do
you want, right? It's prettyclear. Anyway, set your clear
demands together as a group,right? And then you have to back
up your demands with what you'rewilling to do to get it. That's
very frustrating under theirRLA, because the government
gives us the right to strike ornot, right? So people get really
frustrated with that definitely,or flight attends. We can be

(35:18):
creative, and we can usecreative tactics also. We can be
loud. We can be loud if we aretogether. Think, think about
this. I tell people this all thetime in mobilization training, I
say, you know, the company isafraid when we're all acting
together, right? It doesn'tmatter if it's a strike, if we
say, Talk Like a Pirate Day, andthey get reports that every

(35:39):
single flight time across theindustry is hard.

Unknown (35:43):
When are we doing that?

Terrifying? Because we're all doing the same thing
together totally. You know,there's a lot that we can do
when we're when we're united andworking together, and building
our organizing structures overand over again and going through
that basic, you know, formula ofresolving issues, and I add, and
I need to add the last onethat's really important urgency,
you know, we need, you need toadd the element of urgency to

(36:09):
get things done. Yeah,

Andrew (36:10):
so true. So looking back on your career and how far
you've come from, you know,working with new hires as a new
hire, and, you know, up untilthis point, did you ever think
back then, like your voice wouldecho in Congress, on national
media, on, you know, as big ofplatforms as as you're on, like

(36:31):
the two guys on a plane podcastis one example. I.

Unknown (36:36):
Yeah, one example, one of the more glamorous ones,

Andrew (36:40):
top tier right here,

yes, yes. Actually, one of my favorites, if I can
just be honest, we

Andrew (36:47):
like your Yeah, we like it.

You know, no, absolutely not every single job
that I've ever done in thisunion has been because someone
has asked me to do it, includingPresident of the Union, and I've
had to make the decision.
Obviously, it's not likesomebody did it that for me. But
no, I never pictured this, notin a million years. In fact, I'm
in DC. What's really funny is, Igrew up in, you know, Corvallis,
Oregon. I had two youngerbrothers. My closest brother

(37:13):
really wanted to always be inpolitics. I just remember
thinking, you know, like, Idon't want to have anything to
do with any of that, right? No,I did not ever imagine this. I
thought maybe I would be ateacher, and I would have some
sort of influence over a lot ofkids lives, and I hoped that I
would be able to help peoplethat way. But no, I never
imagined this. Never

Andrew (37:36):
going back to the other the last question you were
talking about building power,and I think that's one of the
things that you're currentlyknown for, is your vision within
our union, you know, not justcombining the aviation unions
such as TW and APFA and AFA.
We're all working together morethan we ever have you are also
we love to see, yeah, truly loveto see stuff. It is, but you're

(38:00):
also known for all of justcombining unions, period,
Starbucks. I mean, you're veryheavily involved in that. And
Amazon and the building of thepower is so important. So why is
it important to you, other thanthe power aspect.

Yeah. So a couple things about this. I mean, when
I first started flying, one ofthe biggest problems that we had
was getting flight attendants tounderstand their own worth. And
we did a lot of work on, youknow, people have Yes, we have
been objectified. We have beensexualized. We have been we have

(38:39):
been sexually harassed andassaulted throughout our
careers. We have been castaside. We have been treated as
we don't matter, the girls inthe back all of that, and we
really had to carve out ourspace as aviation's first
responders and as people whoshould be respected, both in
terms of the public sphere, butalso at the bargaining table. So
when I look at something likeStarbucks, like the Starbucks

(39:02):
campaign, and they asked me tocome on their their second ever
organizing call with that firststore in Buffalo, it's amazing.
Yeah. And I was like, Listen,you could change the world. You
can you can light a fire here.
And they did, and I'm so, soproud of them, but I also relate
to it so much, because, youknow, being a barista, you can
see a lot of similarities abouthow people think about the work

(39:26):
and how valuable that work is.
Who, besides flight attendantsand baristas, are interfacing
with the community all the timeand can really make a difference
in people's lives, and they talkabout it as like a throwaway
college job. You know what? Allwork has dignity. I had a CEO
say to me, Sarah, really, howmuch can you pay someone to put

(39:48):
lettuce on a plate? Well, I'lltell you what, if we don't get
our catering, what kind offlight are we gonna have? Like,
it doesn't work. Every singlething that people do, what do
they think when they go to theirboardroom and they're served
lunch by the people who come in,and what do they think about the
people who go through thatboardroom at night and clean up
their mess? Would they like tocome back to a messy room the

(40:09):
next day? You know, it's everysingle person plays a role, and
no job is any less importantthan the other. Okay, yeah,
maybe you go to school, maybe,you know, you have credentials
that that get you a little moremoney, whatever. But this idea
that some jobs are disposable,or even that people are
disposable, is just not okay.
And so I, I think it's reallyimportant to stand like, you

(40:33):
know, standing with the autoworkers, standing with Starbucks
baristas, standing with theAmazon workers. We have to stand
with all of labor, because thisis this. Well, Mother Jones was
a labor organizer around theturn of the century and the 20th
century, and she was travelingaround the country fighting
child labor. And she has thisfamous quote that I always use,

(40:55):
she said, the capitalists saythere is no need of labor
organizing, except the fact thatthey themselves are continually
organizing shows us their realbeliefs. The capitalists want
the most amount of labor for theleast amount of money, and Labor
wants the most amount of moneyfor the least amount of labor.
She says, labor generates all ofthe wealth in this country and
builds the world's palaces, butneither dwells in those palaces

(41:19):
nor spends that wealth. If youwould only understand that you
hold the whole solution in thepalm of your hand. If, for
example, every worker in Americawere to simply hold up and stop
working, the capitalists wouldyield to any and all demand.
Because the world could simplynot go on. And when she says
that, she's essentiallydescribing a general strike, but

(41:42):
what she's really doing istelling people, telling workers
everywhere, you have power justby putting your hands in your
pocket and refusing to allowthem to exploit us. Now we have
to do it together. You can't doit by yourself. So we have to
figure out how to get along witheach other, how to define our
demands together, how to knowwhat we're fighting for

(42:04):
together. But we have thatpower. And a lot of times I hear
the phrase the rich andpowerful. That is a ruse. That
is like the emperor has noclothes. Okay? Once you see it,
you can't unsee it. They do nothave power. They have money and
they have control. We have thepower. If we wake up to that
power, we can do anything. Wecan take them on. We can make

(42:27):
them have to negotiate with us.
That's what we did during thepandemic. And we got $54,
billion in payroll supportdirectly to workers. It was the
first workers, first program Ihad ever seen in the government.
And it kept not only ourairlines afloat, but it kept
everyone in their jobs, gettingconnected to our healthcare,

(42:48):
continuing to get our retirementcontributions, staying with our
credentials and being able tostart up the industry again. The
first ever workers, firstprogram, and it was because we
understood that we had the powerto make them negotiate with us
before we even went to Congress,and we got them to agree at the
same time, because we had powerin that moment to cap their pay
and ban stock buybacks anddividends. And that stayed in

(43:12):
place even after the reliefperiod ended. Now the second
that rose, they lifted their payand all of that, but it's a good
lesson, because the airlineindustry was the only industry
in America not to grow ininequality during the pandemic,
and that's because of our unionsand working people setting the
agenda.

Andrew (43:30):
Yeah, that's powerful.
And I think you brought up sucha good point about power versus
control, and I think there'ssuch an important distinction
there that a lot of people don'trealize, you know, sure, they
have a lot of control overthings, because they're, you
know, the big guns, and they'remaking these decisions on behalf
of working class people. But wehave the power. What

we have to understand is that, yes, they
have power, but it's onlybecause we give it to them. If
we stop giving it to them, theyreally don't. The power resides
with us.

Unknown (44:00):
Yeah, I love that.

Andrew (44:04):
I'm public for words over here, I'm sorry. I'm so
star struck. Can you be mypersonal neighbor every day,
this podcast episode will becomemy own personal motivation
whenever I'm down.

No, but it's exciting. No, it is what we can
do. When we come together. Itdoesn't happen overnight. We
have a lot of work to do, but,but we can do

Andrew (44:23):
it. And also, we're seeing industry leading
contracts come out of like,almost every carrier at this
point, like, clearly, not justPSP, awesome. I mean,

yeah, we're that keep things in place and slide
back

Andrew (44:36):
Right, right, right, but we've seen so many tragedies
happen where we've movedbackwards and we came out of
covid, and we're still seeingindustry leading contracts being
negotiated like that's justproof, more, further proof of
the power that we actually havecreated and are wielding in

this yes area. And this is one thing that's really
important for us to know, isthat the last 20 years have not
been regular bargaining. Years.
You had the bankruptcies. Evenif your carrier wasn't going
through bankruptcy, you probablywere not negotiating
improvements, right and and sothere was a time of concessions
and austerity, and that movedinto the mergers where they

(45:12):
figured out how to pit workersagainst each other so that we
didn't fully use our power inthe mergers like we should have
to get what we really deservedin those mergers. Also, those
merger negotiations were notunder the Railway Labor Act.
They weren't regular section sixbargaining. We are now this this
round of bargaining is the firsttime that we're getting back to
regular bargaining, and we needthat pattern bargaining so that

(45:33):
each contract builds upon theother so we keep building up the
careers. You know, every singleone should do just a little bit
better and a little bit better.
I think that there's a lot ofpeople who feel really
demoralized and upset becausenegotiations have gone on for
three and four years. That isnot what people need to know. Is
that is not normal, okay? And itdoesn't have to be that way. And

(45:57):
we're resetting now with thisround of bargaining. We're not
done with everybody yet, butwe're resetting now, and we
should set a regular pace forbargaining, and bargaining
should not take more than 12 to18 months. That's as long as it
should take. We can be strategicin doing that, and people have
to know that the last 20 yearswere it's not normal, it's just

(46:18):
not wild. And don't accept it asreality, correct? That is not
reality.

Andrew (46:22):
Yes. And also remember that the people that are at the
bargaining table, that the unionreps that are at the bargaining
table, we are riding the jumpseat with you. We're not just
going in there and acceptingwhatever's coming out, out at
us. It's not like, it's not liketheir team said we we only have
this. Yes, and we accepted thatwe're riding the jump seat with
you. We want better forourselves too, exactly. And if
they wanted to give it to us,they would have, if they want to

(46:43):
create better schedules, theywould make them sorry, I'm so
boxing it. If they wanted togive us better schedules, they
would have already, if theywanted to give us more money,
they would have already, like,it's not, but never. Was not
your union who's going in thereand just saying, I'll take
whatever you can get. And we'refighting like, lighting,

let's we always vote down the first offer. It's
not a freaking offer. We toldthem no sometimes before it
comes out

Andrew (47:08):
in a tear, gonna say, oh, never mind, here's more
money. I don't think it's asecret that we're Unionists. I
don't think it's a secret thatI'm a union rep. I've sat at
that negotiation table. I knowwhat happens, and I'm I'm so
thankful that you as a leader,are like, we're not accepting.
We're not signing five yeardeals anymore. We're not
signing, you know, well,

we might sign five year deals, but there better be
a year early opener so we canget back to the table right that

Andrew (47:31):
part, but to move negotiations into a place where
we're not living through one totwo contracts per our career,
because that five year contracttook five years to negotiate,
and now you're living under thiscontract for 15 years. And

that is not that.
That is just not normal. No oneshould accept that. No one
should assume that that'snormal. And the other thing that
I just want to make clear,though, Andrew, is it's really
important that we have actualflight attendants at the table,
not not every union has theworkers at the table. We're
there, but we're there alongsideattorneys and economists and all
these professionals who help usand assist us. And I think

(48:05):
that's

Andrew (48:06):
what it's important. I think that's why we wanted to
highlight that you are a flightattendant. Because every single
person in the AFA leadership, weare all flight attendants. Yes,
we're working with lawyers andthings like that. But even our
international president,international vice president,
international secretary,everyone from the person doing

(48:27):
the new hire presentation toyou, we're all flight
attendants. That's right, we'reall sitting jump seats. We're
all riding the same trips thatyou're complaining to us about.
Yes,

and by the way, flight attends are amazing
people, because a lot of timesthey have other skills, like,
they're really good at data, orthey're really good at computer
programming, or they're reallygood at communications, or they
were previously a nurse or adoctor or a lawyer, you know. So
yeah, we have all these skillsamong our ranks that we can pull
out. And if people bring theirskills to the Union, and
everybody pitches in a littlebit just like, I mean, we're an

(48:59):
incredible group, an incrediblegroup, and there's so much
potential there. Yes, to do evenmore, 100

Andrew (49:05):
I 100% agree with you.
Okay, so I'm gonna try to get usback on track now, and I'm off
my soapbox. Sorry, everyone. I'mgonna, I'm gonna be done
ranting. Here are lots of soapbox one win that you're most
proud of during your time as AFApresident.

So I mean, obviously getting $54 billion
from the US government was a bigwin, but like I said, that was
just so that we didn't gobackwards. So I mean, I can't
pass over the payroll supportprogram that we fought for and
with that we designed, foughtfor, negotiated with the
companies and then one withCongress. It was really, really
hard work. People, yeah, really,really hard work, but, but, I

(49:42):
mean, I just, I just can't, eventhough this is so huge, I can't
take it in as a big win, becauseit was about not going
backwards, right? And so for me,really, it was the fight for 10
hours rest. It was an epicbattle that had been going on
for so long and and it's notenough. We can continue to build
on that too. But what it took tochange that minimum rest from

(50:06):
really, they say nine, butreally they could reduce to
eight. So it was really eightright to change it to 10 hours
and have that be the minimum inthe law and in the regulations,
not just in a contract you know,raised the bar for everyone
across the industry, and everysingle flight attendant was
involved in that. It was a veryclear demand. We had so many

(50:27):
actions. We had we had membersof Congress who were like, Fine,
I'll sign up, because they got1000s and 1000s of calls, and we
had met quiet

Andrew (50:35):
people. Even, what happens when you mess with
55,000 people.

And we had, and we had members of Congress who
signed up for it because theygot one call from a flight
attendant. Like, I was talkingto this member of Congress, and
he's like, I haven't heard fromanyone, and we were dialing for
dollars, and what we found outwas there was only two flight
attendants in his district, andwe got one of them to call him,
and he's like, Okay, I've heardfrom a constituent I will sign

(51:00):
on. So people just need to know,like, every single voice
matters, really matters. Andthat was an epic battle where,
at the end, at the very I'mgonna tell you the very end.
Okay, so we had been supportingthe minors in their fight to
preserve pensions and healthcarethat not only was negotiated in
their contracts, but that ourcountry committed to them

(51:21):
because miners powered thiscountry. I mean, it was coal
that used to power a lot of uswere born in hospitals that were
warmed and lit because of thework that miners did
underground. And so we fought tokeep their health care and
pensions. And so then at the endof this battle. Bill. Schuster,
who was the chair of thetransportation infrastructure
committee, was a Republican. Hewas like with a foray, you know,

(51:42):
Airlines for America, theydidn't want to give us the 10
hours. So he was fightingagainst it, even though we did
have Republicans who wereleading in the house for it. And
he said, we can't put it in thebill, because we don't have one
Senate Republican on this bill.
And I happened to be in the carwith Cecil Roberts, who is the
president of the United MineWorkers of America. And I said,
Cecil, call Shelley Moore Capitoand who's your Republican

(52:04):
senator in West Virginia. I knowyou know her. And he called
right there from the car, and hetold her, he said, Senator Sarah
Nelson was pivotal to makingsure that we would save our
health care and pensions, whichaffects all of your constituents
in West Virginia, we need you todo this one thing. She made a
call right there and then, andthat was the final thing on the
table at the 2018 FAAreauthorization bill and all of

(52:27):
the work that we had done, allthose calls, all those actions,
all the surveys, fatigue surveysand everything. It all came down
to that one relationship that wehad built where we came out for
another union, and they werecoming out for us, and they had
a reason to say to the senator,no, this isn't just an ask from
us. This is somebody who foughtfor your people too, and so you

(52:47):
need to do it for them. She madea call, and that's how we won
our 10 hours.

Andrew (52:54):
That is why all unions are important. That is
incredible. Yeah, incrediblestory. True solidarity,
everybody working together tomake that happen. Yes, amazing.
Yes. Well, one last question wehave for you, and this is kind
of perfect, since you got yourunion start working with new
hires, what is one thing? If youcould speak to every single new

(53:15):
hire flight attendantindividually, what is one thing
you would say to them, eitherpiece of advice or just kind of
thoughts about the job? Whatwould you say to every new hire?

So obviously, I think we all have a lot of
things. We would tell new hires,1000 things, right? But the one
thing that I would tell them isput on your AFA pin because or
your union pin. If you're not inAFA, put on your union pin. And
if you're at Delta or sky West,put on your AFA pin. We're
organizing there, because whatthat tells management is that

(53:50):
you know that you have rights,and you know who to call to use
them. And my experience is thatthe second that I put on that
union pin, those managers didnot mess with me through the
rest of my probation. There'sreal power in numbers, and they
know that when they see you withthat union pin on, that you
really get it, that you get thatyou're not standing alone. And

(54:14):
that union pin transcends thewings that we wear, or the color
the tail the airplane, it's it'sabout flight attendants
everywhere. So when I seesomeone else wearing a an AFA
pin, like, if you want to be apart of this career, put on that
union pin, because it doesn'tmatter the uniform that they're

(54:34):
wearing. When I see that unionpin, it means I care about you.
I've got your back, and thatmeans a lot to me. So when I
walk through the terminal and Isee that, that's what I feel,
and that's what I want everyoneto feel, so that's the advice I
would give them. I

Andrew (54:50):
love that, and I'm sorry that I'm not wearing my union
pin today. Now I'm ashamed ofmyself. I will say it's pinned
on every uniform Garmin I have,and I've got them on every bag
and lanyard. But I did not comeprepared today. I was gonna say,
I promise, when he's in uniform,he's pinned always, always
multiple pins on,

you know what? You know what? Also, actually, you
know members of Congress writeon our planes, and they know
what that union pin looks likebecause when you come to their
they know what it means. And sowhen they see the flight
attendants wearing the unionpins, that reinforces for them
that what the union was askingfor, these are the people who
care about it. So you withouteven saying anything, you're
telling them, make sure that wehave proper rest, make sure that

(55:32):
we have proper safety, make surethat we have, you know, training
to defend ourselves. Make surethat we have a living wage, and
so it's really important. Yeah,

Andrew (55:41):
thank you saying. All right, we are going to close out
now, and anytime we have aguest, we do a lightning round.
So we're just going to ask you aseries, real quick question.
First thing that pops to yourhead? No, not really. It's not
hard. I promise. We're notasking tough questions. I
promise. Okay, so I'll start theround off if you're on an

(56:04):
airplane, window or aisle, ohwindow, Airbus or Boeing, Boeing
hotel or Airbnb. Oh, hotel.
Favorite layover city.

Favorite layover city. This one is so hard for
me. I'm sorry. I just have tosay, Honolulu, you

Andrew (56:22):
don't have to be sorry for that. Honolulu is a great
choice. Favorite airport.

Oh, I, I'm, I'm just so I'm just so true to my
school, Boston, Logan. Oh,

Andrew (56:35):
that's my hometown.
Emerald so I love it. Leastfavorite

Atlanta. Oh, don't have to think, because everyone

Andrew (56:45):
go to snack while flying.

Go to snack while flying is, oh, my god, lately,
it's seaweed. I hope I'm notcursing people out. But you
know, the crunchy seaweed is soyummy.

Andrew (56:56):
I'm not the only one that eats gross, smelly snacks
on airplanes. So can eatseaweed, I can eat beef jerky,

but please nobody bring tuna. Thank you very much.
And keep you on

Andrew (57:08):
favorite song on your travel playlist right now,

oh my gosh, it's like, fight and win, fight and
lose. I don't know it's fromlike

Andrew (57:17):
it is that would be your song, no, but that would be a
song you would be listening

to. It was in, like, one of the last episodes
of Ted lasso, and I just let youhave it on. I love that. And it
just reminds me of Mother Jonessaying, You will fight and win,
fight and lose, but you mustfight and so stay in the fight.

Andrew (57:33):
Yeah, one item that's always in your carry on a

Unknown (57:37):
bottle of water.

Andrew (57:39):
Yeah, Hydration is key.
It's the most important thing

Unknown (57:42):
on the airplane. It is key.

Andrew (57:43):
Last question, one place you've always wanted to visit
that you haven't been to yet.

I have not. Okay, so this is really kind of funny,
because I had never been toRome. I had never been to Italy,
and I always wanted to go toItaly, and I still want to
explore Italy. And I haven't. Igot it in my head that it like
had to be this big, romantictrip, and so I put it off, and
never went there and everything.
And I still haven't been,because the pope invited me to
the Vatican, and I only went tothe Vatican. I didn't go

(58:11):
anywhere else, and so, which wasan incredible experience. But
yes, I want to explore all overItaly, really,

Andrew (58:20):
so many good places there to go. Such a great
choice. And I thought I wasgoing to gain 10 pounds from all
of the like pasta that I waseating while I was there. It's
so much better and healthier foryou, eat everything. Don't be
afraid to eat but eateverything.

And you're also walking out, walking Yes, yes.
You know things that Americans

Andrew (58:39):
don't do, yeah? But when you're eating lasagna for like,
breakfast, lunch and dinner,yeah, start to worry about Yeah,
vacation mode. Okay. Also, thereare places in Italy that will
give you, they'll give you abowl of walking pasta. I didn't
know this was a thing. It wasfantastic. Do it all. Do it all.

(59:01):
Oh, my God, is as romantic asyou've been dreaming it up. It
really is as romantic. But alsothey give you walking pasta,
Sarah, we can't thank you enoughfor coming today. It's been such
a pleasure talking to you. Thankyou. This has been so fun. Thank
you guys so much for listeningand tuning in. We hope you
enjoyed our conversation withSarah Nelson today. Do you want

(59:21):
to plug AFA? Where to followyou? Where

you can well, you can follow me on most channels,
at flying with Sarah, but AFA,afacwa.org, and, you know, find
all the latest stuff. We're inthe middle of doing a website
redesign, so that'll be outsoon. And yeah, stay in touch.
Go follow

Andrew (59:41):
AFA. Go follow Sarah and go find you a union pin. That's
right. And if you haven'talready, please join our
subscriber community on Patreon.
This supports us and supportsour show and helps us keep
going. So go to patreon.com/two.
Guys on a plane. We have behindthe scenes, footage, bloopers,
exclusive content and all sortsof fun stuff for you. And

Sara Nelson (01:00:02):
who doesn't want to hang out and be with and work
with two guys on a plane?

Andrew (01:00:06):
I could name a few people. Well, friends join us
next time for more humor, heartand stories from our beverage
cart. This episode was broughtto you by staff traveler, the
number one non rev app if youtravel on standby tickets and
are looking to make your journeyeasy and stress free, check out
the staff traveler app in theApple App Store or Google Play

(01:00:26):
Store. Visit stafftraveler.com/two guys to learn
more and sign up

Buzz Burbank (01:00:32):
an ironic media production. Visit us at I R O N,
I, C, K, media.com, you.

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