June 25, 2025 • 42 mins
What if the real damage from personal injury isn’t physical at all? In this episode of Unseen Impact, host and attorney Rory Pendergast sits down with clinical psychologist and neuropsychologist Dr. Clark Clipson to explore the unseen emotional toll of trauma. With over 4,300 evaluations under his belt, Dr. Clipson shares how injuries can lead to isolation, shame, and a loss of identity—especially for men whose sense of self is tied to work and purpose.
We dig into real-life stories of suppressed trauma, how emotional pain becomes physical, and why our culture’s obsession with independence can make recovery harder. Plus, Dr. Clipson opens up about his own family’s mental health struggles and how he’s turning to music as a new form of healing in retirement.
Whether you’re a legal professional, a caregiver, or someone navigating trauma, this episode offers powerful insights into the true cost of injury—and what it really means to reclaim the pursuit of happiness.
Don’t forget to follow and subscribe at OlasMedia.com
Here are some highlights from this episode:
00:00:00 – Introduction: Trauma, Injury & the Pursuit of Happiness
00:01:14 – Why Dr. Clipson Chose Psychology
00:04:07 – Trauma’s Physical Manifestations: The WWII Veteran Story
00:06:12 – Coping Mechanisms: Avoidance and Addiction
00:07:41 – Men, Identity & Shame After Injury
00:10:54 – Minor Injuries, Major Psychological Impact
00:14:38 – From Accident to Isolation: The Mind-Body Connection
00:20:14 – Finding Hope Through Human Connection
00:28:07 – Proving Emotional Trauma in Court
00:34:04 – Dr. Clipson’s New Chapter: Healing Through Songwriting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:23):
Welcome back to Unseen Impact, the podcast, where we explore
the deeper and often hidden consequences of trauma, injury and injustice,
and the ways we can rebuild lives and dignity afterward.
I'm Rory Pendergast, attorney at Rory Law. Today, I'm honored
to be joined by Doctor Clark Clipson, a licensed psychologist
(00:43):
and neuropsychologist with more than four decades of experience, Doctor
Clipson has conducted over 4300 evaluations in his career, many
of them in the context of legal, medical and educational systems.
He's testified in courtrooms across the country, trained the next
generation of psychologists, and served as a trusted consultant to
(01:03):
institutions ranging from the California Judicial Council to the US
Marine Corps JAG. His work sheds light on the intersection
of psychology, trauma and justice in ways few others can. Today,
we'll be talking about the emotional and psychological toll of
personal injury, especially how it can lead to isolation and depression.
(01:24):
And what that means in the context of how we
think about recovery, identity, and even our country's founding promise,
the pursuit of happiness. Well, Doctor Clifton, welcome to the show.
S2 (01:36):
Thank you. Rory.
S1 (01:38):
You know what I wanted to kind of look at?
You've been doing this for over 40 years, right?
S2 (01:44):
Yes.
S1 (01:44):
All right. And so kind of. What was it about
this field that got you into it?
S2 (01:51):
Well, a lot of it was personal. A lot of
it was growing up with a mother who had bipolar disorder.
And as a kid, trying to figure out how to
navigate her mood swings and suicidal behaviors and all that
kind of stuff. Um, but then as I got older,
there were when I was in college, I worked for
a place called hassle House. This was the 70s, right?
(02:13):
And it was a crisis intervention house. And, uh, we
worked with people who were heroin addicts in Durham, North Carolina. Um,
and we would go to where they were and talk
to them and try to hook them up to services,
get them into methadone clinics, that kind of thing. And
after that, I went and worked for the psychiatric unit
(02:34):
at Duke Hospital, and just became fascinated by the ways
that trauma in particular and biology contribute to mental health
kinds of issues.
S1 (02:45):
Yeah, that that is that's a little heavier than most
people have to deal with in their childhood and getting
into adulthood.
S2 (02:52):
Yeah.
S1 (02:53):
Uh, so then. Wow. Yeah. So you go from the,
from working at Duke to then going to school for it. Yes.
And then how did you get to San Diego?
S2 (03:02):
Well, if you're going to spend four years in graduate school,
I didn't want to end up in Nebraska. So I
wanted to come someplace that would be a, you know,
fun place to live. Yeah. So I looked at Vermont
and Hawaii and California, um, and San Diego turned out
to be the best fit.
S1 (03:20):
And then. So your practice has been here for the
past 40 some odd years.
S2 (03:24):
Yes.
S1 (03:24):
That's that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So then you
know something about trauma and its impact on mental health.
S2 (03:32):
Yes. I mean, um, certainly some of the experiences I
have with my mother were traumatic. Um, but also when
I started working at Duke Hospital, there were a number
of I remember there was a case that I had
of a man who had fought in World War Two.
He had been part of the D-Day invasion. Um, he had, uh,
his entire platoon was wiped out. And at one point
(03:55):
a tank had a German tank had run over his
legs and he could walk. He was fine and lived
out the rest of his work life fine. When he retired,
all of a sudden he had developed paralysis in his legs. Really,
and he couldn't move anymore. And I watched as the doctors, um,
(04:17):
work through his trauma and helped him remember this experience
of the German tank running over his legs while the
rest of his platoon was being wiped out. And as
he processed the trauma, his ability to walk came back.
S1 (04:30):
It came back.
S2 (04:31):
So those were the kind of things that really got
me interested in trauma.
S1 (04:34):
Oh my goodness. So then that's wild. So it's all
kind of this repressed sort of memory that just finally
came out when what essentially he, he had the, the, the,
his life was in a position where he could just
come out then.
S2 (04:49):
Well, yeah, like a lot of men, one of the
ways we cope is by staying busy, distracting ourselves and
work provides a great way to do that. Um, I
forget what this guy did for a living, but he
worked 20 hours a day. I mean, he worked all
the time, seven days a week. And when he retired,
all of a sudden he didn't have that anymore. And
(05:10):
so he that way of avoiding the pain just came
flooding back.
S1 (05:16):
So it's an interesting word you say avoiding, because what
I see from the personal injury context is, of course,
not nearly as severe as that or as intense as that. Um, but,
you know, it's inconvenient to have an injury. It's inconvenient
to have trauma. And so you get a lot of
people who are, you know, for, for a, for a
lack of a better term for the layman's term of
(05:37):
just in denial. And I don't know if it's denial
or just hoping that it's going to be better. Right.
S2 (05:44):
Yeah. And it's probably a little of both. I mean,
we we all want to do the stuff we want
to do. And when, um, physical limitations or psychological limitations
get in the way of that, we just act like
they're not there.
S1 (06:01):
Yeah. And then. And so then this guy could have just.
He could just act like it's not there, and then
it pops up all this time. That's so fascinating because
in in the personal injury context, I can see that happening.
And so from, from what I can see is that
as long as somebody is busy, they can deal with
something or or not deal with it.
S2 (06:20):
Exactly. So they can be busy. They can be. Staying
high is another common way to cope with it. They
can get into gambling. They can do. They can get
into compulsive sex. There are a lot of different avenues
for avoiding.
S1 (06:35):
Okay. So then let me ask you this one. In
this with your 40 years of experience in this, what
would you say are some of the most misunderstood items
when it comes to trauma and its impact on mental health?
S2 (06:50):
Well, there are a lot of, I think, common kinds
of things that happen. People often get depressed. They suffer
from anxiety. Uh, what what's less seen are feelings of
shame that come, come with this loss of self-worth. Um,
for men in particular, when they've suffered some sort of
emotional or brain related trauma and they're unable to work,
(07:15):
that's a huge avenue that's cut off. Um, they're cut
off from that. Provides a sense of meaning and purpose
in their lives, on the one hand, but it also
provides them with a sense of social connection and belongingness
on another. Um, their sense of identity is often overly
tied into work, uh, in a way that, um, is
(07:36):
not necessarily true for women. For many women, work is
a central purpose in their lives, but for men, we're
just routinely socialized over and over again. What are you
going to be when you grow up? The first question
people ask you, what do you do for a living? Yeah,
they don't ask you, what do you like to do
for fun?
S1 (07:54):
Yeah.
S2 (07:55):
Um, so it's just a central thing. And when when
a physical or emotional injury gets in the way, men
often don't know what to do with that.
S1 (08:04):
Yeah. Okay. And so I mean, from what I've seen too,
you know, personally and then just professionally seeing from clients
is you get your this sort of social network in
your work and then Regardless of the pecking order of
where you're at, you're fulfilling, you're fulfilling a duty. And
it's this kind of this social duty that you're able
(08:24):
to say, hey, I get to show up. I got
people above me, below me, relying on me. I am,
even if I'm a cog in this wheel, I am
helping it turn. And when you can no longer do that,
it can lead to isolation, right?
S2 (08:38):
Absolutely. Men don't tend to pick up the phone and
call each other and just, hey, how are you doing?
My wife does that all the time. I don't do it. Yeah. Um, my.
I meet friends through work, through, uh, my other hobbies
and activities that I like. But we do things together.
That's what men do. And if you're injured and you
can't do those things, um, then you're cut off.
S1 (09:02):
So it's interesting that you say shame because it's kind
of this, this funny thing where you have so trauma
which can lead to other emotional aspects. Yes. And then
shame comes from it. Tell me about that.
S2 (09:15):
So a lot of times it men will feel like
if I can't do the job that I'm supposed to do,
if I can't provide for my family, then there's a
there's a component that goes with that, which is I'm
not a man.
S1 (09:28):
Yeah.
S2 (09:29):
And that's something men we do to ourselves, because we've
been taught that our ability to provide and serve that
kind of function is a crucial part of who we
are as men. And so that's where the sense of
shame comes. I'm not a man if I can't do
these things.
S1 (09:47):
So then there must be a ripple effect throughout the
entire kind of social structure, right? So with its with
its family, spouses, children, any sort of group that they
belong to work, you know, religious groups, church. Yep. Stuff
like that. Right.
S2 (10:04):
Exactly. So there may be physical barriers, mobility issues that
keep them from getting involved. Um, there could also be the,
the fear of how am I going to be treated if, um,
if I can't participate in the conversation like all my
coworkers can because I don't know what's going on anymore
or I don't know the inside jokes.
S1 (10:26):
Oh, because you're not there for that time.
S2 (10:29):
Exactly.
S1 (10:30):
So it's it's not just about being plugged in. It's
about being plugged in and constantly there.
S2 (10:37):
Yes.
S1 (10:37):
So and you know, what I have seen is, you know, hey,
it's for even for the unseen aspect of the emotional
aspect that comes from trauma. If you have a catastrophic injury,
I think that those of us who are not suffering
that can, can really see what it is. Sure. What
I've seen as well is even smaller impacts. So, for instance,
(10:59):
let's say you have somebody who, you know, maybe they're
living on the on the fence of life, but they're
doing it. They're showing up. They're getting their kids to school,
they're showing up at work. They're they're enjoying themselves, but
they're still kind of on the fence. You have one
even minor sort of something that happens to them and
it just throws them off.
S2 (11:17):
Yes.
S1 (11:17):
From a psychological standpoint, what happens to that person?
S2 (11:22):
Well, oftentimes, again, those senses, that sense of shame, and
I'm not living up to what I'm supposed to be
doing kicks in. They don't they have trouble reaching out
for help. So they feel embarrassed, like I can't go
to my friends, my family, my siblings and say, hey,
(11:43):
I need a place to stay, or can I? Can
you loan me some money to get through this? Yeah. Um,
and so they they would rather suffer and see things
fall apart than reach out.
S1 (11:54):
That's so sad. It is. What is it, emotionally or biologically,
that makes us do that?
S2 (12:02):
Well, I think emotionally, um, you know, we're taught to
especially in, in this country, we're taught to be self-sufficient
and independent, and that's, that's a value that is not
shared by every culture. And there's some things that are
good about being self-sufficient and independent, but there's some real
limitations to it as well. And when you live in
(12:24):
a society that's not that way, that's more community oriented.
Perhaps then you may feel like you don't get enough privacy,
but that you have a safety net that doesn't necessarily
exist in our society.
S1 (12:39):
You have a almost like you. You have this built
in boat that no matter what happens to you, you're
always flowing with that boat.
S2 (12:46):
Exactly.
S1 (12:47):
Okay. And there's some actually some very interesting things, some
connections to our society and kind of our founding that I,
that I want to talk about. But but one thing that,
that I'm kind of curious about is so we spent
the past ten minutes or so talking about the impact
on on men and have kind of touched a little
bit on women. But so what is that sort of
emotional trauma that comes from, or the emotional impact that
comes from trauma that women might suffer?
S2 (13:10):
Well, for women, I think there's a fear of, um,
of being judged, of being blamed for things that, um,
that they didn't cause. Yeah. But they there's a tendency to,
for women as a group to, to say, well, what
what did I do? What's wrong with me or why me?
(13:34):
Those kinds of things, um, that men do too, but
not as much. Um, for women. There's also, I think,
a sense of, um, they also struggle with shame. Yeah.
You know, you think of the The Scarlet Letter as
being this sort of classic, uh, way of of, uh,
(13:57):
demonstrating that. Yeah, but the sense of, oh, you know,
I'm not going to be liked or lovable anymore because
of what happened to me.
S1 (14:06):
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's wild. So, you know, one of
the things that I'm curious as, and I think most
people now post-pandemic, I mean, here we are five years later.
And for those who had for all of us who
had to live through it. Yeah. For those who had
kids who were at kind of formidable ages, who seen
what's happened to those kids now kind of coming out
(14:27):
of it, I think that people today have a much
better understanding of what isolation is and how terrible it is.
S2 (14:34):
Yes.
S1 (14:35):
But so how do we get. How is it that
we make the connection between even even a, a fender
bender or some sort of trauma from a car crash,
a motorcycle crash, a slip and fall or something to
where we're isolated. How? If you're explaining to a patient
that doesn't necessarily see those connections, what sort of steps
(14:57):
are you taking to describe that to kind of show
the pathway?
S2 (15:01):
Yeah. So from the accident to the isolation, there are
three different things to look at. So you've got the emotional,
you've got the cognitive and you've got the physical. Yeah.
And so from a physical point of view, there may
be physical injuries that limit mobility.
S1 (15:18):
Pain.
S2 (15:19):
Exactly. Pain which colors everything causes fatigue, depression a sense
of hopelessness. You can't concentrate and focus attention if you're
in pain. Yeah. Pain can take over a person's life. Yeah.
And paints everything black. Then emotionally again, if you're you're
(15:41):
cut off from being able to live the life you
want to live, be involved with your family and work
and your the things you're interested in, that's a loss.
You may become afraid that these bad things that happen
to you are going to happen to you again. So
you create a sense of anxiety or post-traumatic stress. And
then cognitively as well, you can have difficulties forming new
(16:04):
memories with reasoning and problem solving that weren't there before.
S1 (16:08):
So actual like, would that be a I mean, it's biological, right? Yes.
So it's going to be a physical barrier.
S2 (16:15):
Exactly.
S1 (16:16):
So physically.
S2 (16:17):
Yeah. So, so yeah. From if you have post-traumatic stress,
for example, you have difficulty forming new memories. Your amygdala,
which is the part of the brain that processes emotions,
is in a constant state of hyper arousal. So every
little thing that happens, you overreact to it.
S1 (16:35):
And that's chemicals coming from the brain and rushing the body.
S2 (16:38):
Exactly.
S1 (16:39):
So and that's what's kind of wild because you think
about this. You know, it's easy to see in the
in the injury context. It's easy to see a physical injury. Right.
Somebody falls and they hit their head or they hit
their arm. They hit their shoulder. Well, boom. You have
a you have a physical injury. But now from that
physical injury you have this emotional injury which then the
(17:00):
emotional injury becomes physical because it's biological.
S2 (17:03):
Yes.
S1 (17:04):
That's kind of wild.
S2 (17:05):
It is.
S1 (17:05):
That's kind of.
S2 (17:06):
Wild. It's all tied together.
S1 (17:07):
Yeah. Um. Wow. You know, one of the thing that
kind of makes me think about is I had a
case once where this woman, uh, she fell, you know,
she was at work, and so she falls and she
hurts her left knee and had major issues with the
left knee. So then all of a sudden, what do
you have to do? Compensate, compensate and favor the right one.
And then it was so then she overworked her right knee.
(17:28):
And then that was related from from the comp context
was related to the underlying injury.
S2 (17:35):
Yes.
S1 (17:35):
And so it kind of sounds like that. But again
for us you can see that.
S2 (17:41):
Right?
S1 (17:42):
Right. And so but from the emotional aspect, it is,
as we're saying, in the unseen injury part of it.
S2 (17:47):
Exactly. So when you have brain injuries or emotional injuries,
those are the unseen injuries. Because to the casual observer
you look fine. You look like everything's good. But then
when you talk to someone or spend time with them,
the injury becomes more apparent.
S1 (18:06):
So then and this was going to be my next question.
Is that so somebody shows up at your at your door,
they sit down on your couch or chair or whatever
you have or had. Uh, what are you doing to like,
I guess, probe to find out. I mean, my doctor,
you know, they hit your knee. Boom. I got a reflex.
There we go. What are you hitting? What tools are
you using?
S2 (18:25):
So I use two primary tools an interview and psychological testing.
So during the interview, it's not just a casual conversation.
It's very structured. So there are specific things I want
to get at both historical information as well as things
about current functioning. Okay. So then I'll ask.
S1 (18:43):
What do you mean by current functioning.
S2 (18:45):
So I'll ask about symptoms. I'll ask about how you
think about things, how you process this emotion. What does
this mean to you? What what are the losses that
you're experiencing right now. So those kind of pointed questions.
S1 (18:59):
That's that's all like as they say subjective. That's tough
to get.
S2 (19:03):
Exactly.
S1 (19:03):
There's no there's no AI automation with this one. No. Yeah.
S2 (19:07):
Um, and some people respond very well to those kind
of direct questions because people around them aren't asking those
kind of questions. So it's an opportunity. I'm inviting them
to share their pain with me. And many people will
will steer away from that. They don't want to hear
it like loved ones. It scares them.
S1 (19:24):
Okay.
S2 (19:25):
Um, and so for some people, that's an avenue they're
very willing to take. Other people are reluctant. So we
have psychological testing as a separate avenue. So the testing
is often more paper and pencil asking answering questions on
a sheet of paper, looking at inkblots, responding to those, um,
(19:46):
taking cognitive tasks. And some people prefer to reveal themselves
more in that way. They're more comfortable doing it.
S1 (19:53):
So have after 40 years of doing it, when somebody
sits down, do you have a sense of whether they're
going to be better at the or not better, but
whether they're going to be more open to the the
interview with you or to the testing?
S2 (20:04):
That's kind of the cool thing. In 40 years, I
have no clue. I'm always surprised which which avenue people
are going to take.
S1 (20:10):
So this is what is so fascinating about it. 40
years experience, more than 40 years experience. And still it's
kind of baffling. And it requires like deep like diving
into it.
S2 (20:22):
Well, because I don't know again what avenue people are
going to be comfortable taking. Yeah. And and letting me
get to know them.
S1 (20:28):
So then I mean, this is kind of wild then
it's I mean, not to say that I feel hopeless
right now for everybody, but what is the hope that
people can have to get get beyond this?
S2 (20:37):
Well, the hope really is in finding ways to connect.
S1 (20:42):
So let me ask you that one. Finding ways to connect.
So if if I'm suffering, are you saying finding ways
that I can connect with with the outside world socially?
Or is it that I can connect with what is
going on with me?
S2 (20:53):
A little bit of both. And they have to kind
of occur simultaneously. So if we take the scenario, a
person had a full life, they were happy with their life.
They have the injury, they've become isolated. Part of the
isolation is comes from their avoidance of dealing with things.
(21:14):
Their denial, on the one hand, their wish, it'll go
away on the other. But it also comes from other
people pulling back or being pushed away by the person
they a lot of injured people become more irritable, for example,
harder to be around, or they clam up and just
don't talk as much. And other people eventually will sort
(21:35):
of give up on them. Yeah, but what has to
happen is the person needs to share their pain, what
they're feeling, what they're thinking. Other people need to become
receptive to listening to it. Okay. And then if their
old avenues of work and being involved with a group
of people are no longer there, they need to find
(21:57):
new avenues.
S1 (21:58):
Okay. Okay. That is heavy. And it's not like, hey,
you broke your arm and put it in a cast
and come back in six weeks.
S2 (22:07):
Yeah, no. And I think, for example, of examples of
athletes who were stellar Olympic quality or professional quality athletes
who suffered devastating injuries, who then regroup and become involved
in Special Olympics as one way of talking about it,
or coaching, I mean, finding a new way to do
(22:29):
the things that you've always loved to do.
S1 (22:31):
In a positive way.
S2 (22:32):
Yes.
S1 (22:33):
So you know this one, what I want to kind
of bring it to because I'm kind of curious, you know,
one of the things that I've kind of been thrown
around in my head for the past couple of years is,
you know, as a personal injury attorney, we're always talking
about general damages. And what we're doing in this podcast
is really about general damage. It's the unseen aspect of it.
It's not it's not a lost wage. It's not paying
a doctor for a surgery or a broken arm or
(22:55):
something like that. And so, you know, you think about
our founding, our founding document, where you have Thomas Jefferson saying,
you know, Known the right to life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness, which, if you really look back at that,
it's a wild, wild statement in this, in this first
off saying, you know, the ruffian bastards in England doing
(23:17):
all these things to us, but then this, this, this
comment and when, when I look into it, what I
see are general damages in that the he Jefferson wasn't
saying that we're guaranteed happiness, but we're we're guaranteed the
right to pursue the happiness. And so when I look
at what are general damages, it's, it's the, the opposite
(23:40):
of that happiness. And so when you're describing all of this,
this is what I'm seeing. You know, you think about, okay,
so a person who for whatever reason, you know, they
they they're in their social structure, they're happy, they feel
fulfilled and then something is taken away from them.
S2 (23:55):
Exactly.
S1 (23:55):
Do you have any thoughts from the psychological aspect about,
you know, you did mention In our culture. But you
know those words from Jefferson? The pursuit of happiness and
what happens when we no longer can pursue that, or
there's some sort of physical or mental block to that?
S2 (24:12):
Yeah. Well, and it's funny because, um, I bought a
t shirt at a national park that changed that up
a little bit. It said the pursuit is happiness. And
and there's a real truth to that. And it fits
with this because if we feel like we can't pursue
the things that make us feel like ourselves, that bring
(24:32):
us joy.
S1 (24:33):
Yeah.
S2 (24:34):
Then that's the the hidden injury. Yeah. Because we can't
get better at our jobs. We can't be fully present
with the people we love, um, because we can't pursue
the things that we enjoy.
S1 (24:48):
Well, and for me, what's so sad about it? Because
seeing it on, on my side of things is that,
you know, as you're saying, shame gets involved in this,
and shame is not a good word. Right. You know,
when it says, hey, you know, I'm feeling a little
shameful today. Right. It's not. You don't ever feel good
when that word comes up, right. And so but it
I think that people it's we're told we're brought up
(25:10):
to believe or whatever. There's no connection made between the
founding of this country, meaning pursuing that happiness and what
it means when we're unable to do that.
S2 (25:18):
Right.
S1 (25:19):
And so I think what what I'm looking at as
well is, and I think you've covered a lot of it,
is that, I mean, how is it that we can
explain that to someone who has suffered trauma and more importantly,
to those around the person who has suffered trauma?
S2 (25:34):
Yeah. I think that people are people around. The traumatized
person have also suffered a loss. And that's often not
recognized either. But the person that they used to enjoy
in certain ways or spend time with or who provided
for them certain things, they've lost that too.
S1 (25:54):
And the worst part is that you've lost it. Maybe
not necessarily completely, but in little bits and pieces.
S2 (25:58):
Exactly.
S1 (25:59):
And it's like a game of Jenga, right? You pull
out enough, enough cubes and it falls.
S2 (26:04):
Exactly. Yeah. And there's enough of the person still there. Yeah,
but it's different. And so everybody around you has to
adjust as well. And so together, people have to find
a new way to connect okay. It's kind of like, um,
if you've if you've taken a boat and it's been damaged,
(26:26):
you can get that boat back in the water, but
you might have to redesign it.
S3 (26:31):
We'll be right back with more insights from the front
lines of healing, advocacy and accountability. Stay with us.
S4 (26:43):
Hi there. I'm Charity Jenne and I've got something special
for you. I recently flew to Seattle. Yes. Literally flew
to attend the FBI con conference. That's the Association of
Fundraising Professionals biggest annual gathering. And while I was there,
I recorded a series of one on one interviews for
From the Nest with some of the most inspiring leaders,
(27:05):
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and they're filled with practical wisdom and nonprofit energy. So
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(27:26):
series where ideas take flight. Listen at charity or wherever
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S5 (27:35):
Hey, it's Daniel from Beyond the Doors. We're super excited
to be a part of the Olas Media Network recording
right here in San Diego, alongside some amazing podcasts. There's
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(27:56):
head over to Olas Media Dot com or wherever you
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you're there. Now let's get back to the show.
S1 (28:13):
So as part of your job as well, you've gone in,
you know, you've had a lot of forensic work you've done.
I've had you as an expert. Uh, how is it
that you or the injured victim or the or the
attorney is able to show this sort of unseen trauma
in the legal setting?
S2 (28:30):
Well, I think that we demonstrate it through what the
person is able to tell us. We demonstrate it by
comparing their test results to a standardized sample, so that
you can see them in relation to a normative group
of people. Yeah.
S1 (28:47):
And are we all is there is there such a thing.
S2 (28:50):
From a from a statistical point of view? There is
from a, from a more conventional point of view. I
it's I'm kind of glad nobody's normal. It makes life
a lot more interesting. And leaves the bar where we
can all attain it. Um, but I think that we
use that kind of. Scientific way of showing how this
person is different from the norm. Statistical norm. And that,
(29:15):
I think, makes a strong impression.
S1 (29:17):
Let me ask you from the forensic side of things,
because what I'm hearing is it's. And from what I've
seen in my own practice, it's if I want to
know how somebody is doing, I don't ask them. The
victim is the worst person to ask. I ask those
around them. And then I see, you know, reading a
bunch of brain injury books, a bunch of trauma books.
And the books are written for family. Yeah. Family members
of the trauma victim. So how are you able to,
(29:40):
on the forensic side, incorporate whether you've talked to the family,
gotten statements from the family? How are you able to
first off, hear from the friends and family and then
incorporate that into what you do to show?
S2 (29:52):
Well, that's the the third I talked to, we talked
first about the interview and the psychological testing. The other
part of a forensic evaluation is what we would call
third party information. So this is medical records, psychological records,
work records, school records, but also talking to people who've
known the person before and after the injury.
S1 (30:13):
You're before and after witnesses.
S2 (30:14):
Exactly. And so when you have, when you talk to
4 or 5 people who know the person well and
you begin to see consistency in the stories, this is
what he was like before. This is what's going on now.
Then that becomes another important, compelling piece of evidence.
S1 (30:33):
And is there anything, any suggestions you have for for
the family members, for the friends and family members?
S2 (30:39):
Yes. I mean, I think for the friends and family,
it's remembering that all you don't need to do anything
special other than just be there, stay involved, interact at
whatever level you can encourage. Um, don't say, you know,
how are you doing in general? How are you doing
right now? That's the kind of question that injured and
(31:03):
people and people who are struggling can relate to. How
are you?
S1 (31:08):
That's a scary question.
S2 (31:09):
It is a very scary question.
S1 (31:10):
A scary question to ask because you know what you
might get.
S2 (31:13):
Yeah, you might get. I feel like jumping off a
building today or I feel like crap today. Yeah. And
but if that's where the person is starting, if you
can be there with that person and encourage them to
talk about it, it will change its connection.
S1 (31:29):
Human connection.
S2 (31:30):
Absolutely.
S1 (31:31):
So and that's my next point. What I was fascinated about,
somebody had shared something on LinkedIn about some Harvard Business
Journal review, talking about the top uses of AI in
2025 and the first last year, it was it was really,
really nerdy. And I write for the top one, but
this one it had to do with here. I got
(31:52):
to get it right. Companionship and in therapy. So this
is wild for generative AI in the United States, the
top use is going to be about companionship and therapy. Yeah.
As a as a psychologist, what do you think of that?
S2 (32:12):
Well, I think it's a reflection of our culture in
general and of our culture in this particular point in time.
We are desperate for connection. It's it's the fundamental part
of of being human. And yet in our society, which
doesn't necessarily provide a lot of positive support for connection, um,
(32:36):
you know, people flock to for political and religious stuff,
anything to feel a sense of connection regardless of what's
going on in the movement. Yeah. Um, AI seems to
offer the illusion of connection, like social media offers the
illusion of connection.
S1 (32:55):
Do you think that it could actually offer a connection?
S2 (33:01):
Certainly not as it is now. Yeah. I mean, um,
I mean, I play around with this stuff because I'm
curious and people are doing it, and I want to
see what what it's like, um, it's it's it's entertaining. Yeah. Um,
it's kind of fascinating because, you know, robots are a
fascinating thing, and you can kind of see it headed there,
(33:21):
but there's, um, if you ever saw the movie, I
think it was called her.
S1 (33:25):
Yes. I was just going with. Yes, yes, yes.
S2 (33:28):
And so this guy is falling in love with this
voice and, um.
S1 (33:33):
Lovely voice.
S2 (33:34):
Lovely voice. I mean, everybody watching the movie falls in
love with her. And then you realize towards the end
of the movie that she's been doing this with thousands
of people simultaneously. That's what robots do. There's no emotional connection. Yeah.
And that's the part that can never be done by AI.
S1 (33:52):
So what we need more is less therapy in AI
and more trivia nights at your local establishments.
S2 (33:57):
Hey, you know, because you figure out if you're into
the same friends trivia night, then that's the way you
start a connection.
S1 (34:05):
It's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. You know,
before we kind of conclude this one thing, I know
that you have had a big change in your life recently. Right?
So after how many, 43 years? Yeah, 43 years, over
4000 forensic interviews, all sorts of other accolades, all sorts
of other things. You have retired from the main practice.
S2 (34:27):
As of two weeks ago.
S1 (34:28):
Yes, as of two weeks ago. And you're and you're here.
So again, I thank you. But. So tell me, what
are you doing right now?
S2 (34:35):
Um, I am pursuing a lifelong interest in songwriting.
S1 (34:38):
Okay, so tell me about that.
S2 (34:40):
So I've played in bands since I was 13, started
writing songs when I was 17 and have always loved it, but,
you know, had to accept early on I wasn't going
to be Elton John. Um, and I didn't. I saw
my friend Paul. Exactly. And, you know, I saw my
friends just playing in bars six nights a week and
(35:00):
not getting anywhere, and so decided to do something different. Yeah,
but the passion for it never left. And now, in
a place where I can do it and not worry
about making a living at it.
S1 (35:10):
So then and that's kind of an interesting thing. So
do you see a connection between, you know, your worlds,
your past life as a psychologist and your current life
as a musician?
S2 (35:21):
Very much so. Writing music for me is a very
healing thing. It's a it's a way of self-discovery. Um,
songwriters often talk about it's they're addressing themselves to the
world and sort of saying, this is who I am,
but they do it in a way. Effective songwriters do
it in a way so that other people can relate
to it. Oh, you're telling my story.
S1 (35:44):
There's a connection.
S2 (35:45):
Exactly.
S1 (35:46):
You know Cat Stevens father and son, right?
S2 (35:48):
Oh, absolutely.
S1 (35:49):
I was just talking with somebody about some probate matter,
and it was like the father died. The son's mad
because he got nothing. But, you know, all these sort
of things happen and it's just like I was just
thought of. Here's this song from the 60s.
S2 (36:00):
Sure.
S1 (36:01):
So then what do you see yourself having kind of
the music for emotional healing impact?
S2 (36:08):
Yeah. I mean, some of the songs I write have
nothing to do with healing. They're just fun songs or
they're political songs, but other songs are very much directed
towards healing. Yeah. Um, as an example, I wrote a
song called Nothing Left to Say About a Guy. It's
written from the woman's point of view, living with a
man who suffered trauma early in his life, and he
(36:32):
can never talk about it. And what that's kind of
like for her.
S1 (36:37):
So in your experience, have you seen a song like
that either? I suppose the hope having the man be
able to open up in some sense, and then maybe
some some understanding from the woman?
S2 (36:49):
Exactly. I mean, so when people the feedback I get
about that song in particular is one of, oh, it
helped me understand him. And then there's a point in
the song where the chorus changes, so it's not just
I can't get in touch with my feelings, but there's
a way in which the man does open up.
S1 (37:08):
Okay.
S2 (37:08):
And so there's a more positive end to the song.
S1 (37:12):
So then is there anything that you can do now
that kind of pushes that out? Because really, if somebody's
listening to a song, it's I don't want to say
it's passive. It's passive from your perspective because you're putting it.
I should say this once you've written it and it's
out there. Yes. It's you're sleeping, you're drinking coffee, you're
at a podcast, you're doing something else. And somebody could
listen to that. So passive in that sense. Yeah. Is
there some some something that you can do or you
(37:33):
have plans of doing to kind of push that out
there to kind of make that connection?
S2 (37:37):
Yeah. Well, I'm learning a lot about marketing.
S1 (37:39):
Oh.
S2 (37:40):
For one thing, I'm learning that people don't just music
doesn't just come to people. There's a lot of marketing
behind every song we ever hear. Yeah. Um, but I'm
also thinking about trying to combine this passion for music
and my mental health history into things like, uh, YouTube
channel or whatever that that promotes that kind of dialogue
(38:02):
and connection and healing through music.
S1 (38:05):
Well, let me tell you this. I want to thank
you so much for coming here. This has been fantastic. Just, uh,
for for me personally as a personal injury attorney doing
this for 16 some odd years, this is what is
a wild part of it that that I love being
able to get out there. So thank you for coming. Sure. Um,
but before we go, so the YouTube. Not yet, but
(38:27):
where can we find you for your musical healing or
just music?
S2 (38:31):
Any place you listen to music, just type in Clark
Clipson I'm on Spotify, Apple, YouTube. Um, so it's I'm
easy to find.
S1 (38:40):
All right. Well, hey, thank you. And I hope that
we have more conversations in your retirement time to come.
S2 (38:45):
Thank you so much for having me. It's fun.
S1 (38:57):
Now it's time for the Myths and Facts segment of
our podcast, where we separate truth from fiction. There's a
lot of information out there and not all of it
is accurate. So we're here to set the record straight
with real facts from your trusted attorney. Let's dive in.
Myth versus fact. The emotional impact of personal injury myth.
(39:19):
Once the physical injuries heal, people go back to normal. Fact.
Physical recovery is just one part of the journey. Many
clients struggle long after their bodies heal with depression, anxiety,
and loss of identity. Just because the cast is off
doesn't mean the damage is gone. Once the physical injuries heal,
people go back to normal. Fact physical recovery is just
(39:43):
one part of the journey. Many clients struggle long after
their bodies heal with depression, anxiety, and loss of identity.
Just because the cast is off doesn't mean the damage
is gone. Emotional trauma can last longer and go untreated
if it's not acknowledged. Myth isolation after an injury is
just a personal problem. It's not something lawyers need to
(40:06):
worry about. Fact isolation is often a direct consequence of injury,
especially when somebody can't return to work or social life.
As a personal injury lawyer, I see this all the
time and it matters in court. Emotional harm is real
harm and it should be part of every case strategy
when seeking justice. Myth the legal system is only about money,
(40:31):
not about people's lives or happiness. Fact personal injury law
exists to restore what was lost physically, financially, emotionally. At
its core, it's about helping people reclaim their lives, dignity,
and the pursuit of happiness. The legal system, when it
works right, can recognize the full human cost of injury,
(40:53):
not just the dollar amount. That's it for this episode
of Unseen Impact. A huge thank you to Doctor Clark
Clipson for sharing his insight and decades of experience with us.
I think his perspective reminds us that personal injury doesn't
just leave physical scars, it can fracture identity, purpose, and connection.
If you or someone you love is navigating the emotional
(41:14):
aftermath of trauma, know that you're not alone. Recovery isn't
just about treatment. It's about being seen, heard, and supported.
You've been listening to Unseen Impact. If you liked today's episode,
make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and
leave us a review. It really helps others find the show.
For more stories, updates and information on legal related topics,
(41:35):
follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. At Law Firm,
you can also learn more about our work or book
a free consultation with us at Rory Law.com. Thanks for
being part of this conversation. Remember, justice isn't just about
what happens in court, it's about what happens after. I'm
Rory Pendergast from Rory Law. See you next time.
S3 (42:00):
Thanks for tuning in to Unseen Impact with Rory Pendergast.
Please follow, subscribe, and maybe share this episode with someone
who's walking their own path to recovery or justice. You
can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn at
Rory Law Firm. To learn more about legal services or
get in touch, visit Rory Law.com. Unseen impact is recorded
(42:24):
in San Diego, California, and proudly produced by Eolas Media,
an IVC media company.
S6 (42:45):
O media.
Welcome back to Unseen Impact, the podcast, where we explore
the deeper and often hidden consequences of trauma, injury and injustice,
and the ways we can rebuild lives and dignity afterward.
I'm Rory Pendergast, attorney at Rory Law. Today, I'm honored
to be joined by Doctor Clark Clipson, a licensed psychologist
(00:43):
and neuropsychologist with more than four decades of experience, Doctor
Clipson has conducted over 4300 evaluations in his career, many
of them in the context of legal, medical and educational systems.
He's testified in courtrooms across the country, trained the next
generation of psychologists, and served as a trusted consultant to
(01:03):
institutions ranging from the California Judicial Council to the US
Marine Corps JAG. His work sheds light on the intersection
of psychology, trauma and justice in ways few others can. Today,
we'll be talking about the emotional and psychological toll of
personal injury, especially how it can lead to isolation and depression.
(01:24):
And what that means in the context of how we
think about recovery, identity, and even our country's founding promise,
the pursuit of happiness. Well, Doctor Clifton, welcome to the show.
S2 (01:36):
Thank you. Rory.
S1 (01:38):
You know what I wanted to kind of look at?
You've been doing this for over 40 years, right?
S2 (01:44):
Yes.
S1 (01:44):
All right. And so kind of. What was it about
this field that got you into it?
S2 (01:51):
Well, a lot of it was personal. A lot of
it was growing up with a mother who had bipolar disorder.
And as a kid, trying to figure out how to
navigate her mood swings and suicidal behaviors and all that
kind of stuff. Um, but then as I got older,
there were when I was in college, I worked for
a place called hassle House. This was the 70s, right?
(02:13):
And it was a crisis intervention house. And, uh, we
worked with people who were heroin addicts in Durham, North Carolina. Um,
and we would go to where they were and talk
to them and try to hook them up to services,
get them into methadone clinics, that kind of thing. And
after that, I went and worked for the psychiatric unit
(02:34):
at Duke Hospital, and just became fascinated by the ways
that trauma in particular and biology contribute to mental health
kinds of issues.
S1 (02:45):
Yeah, that that is that's a little heavier than most
people have to deal with in their childhood and getting
into adulthood.
S2 (02:52):
Yeah.
S1 (02:53):
Uh, so then. Wow. Yeah. So you go from the,
from working at Duke to then going to school for it. Yes.
And then how did you get to San Diego?
S2 (03:02):
Well, if you're going to spend four years in graduate school,
I didn't want to end up in Nebraska. So I
wanted to come someplace that would be a, you know,
fun place to live. Yeah. So I looked at Vermont
and Hawaii and California, um, and San Diego turned out
to be the best fit.
S1 (03:20):
And then. So your practice has been here for the
past 40 some odd years.
S2 (03:24):
Yes.
S1 (03:24):
That's that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So then you
know something about trauma and its impact on mental health.
S2 (03:32):
Yes. I mean, um, certainly some of the experiences I
have with my mother were traumatic. Um, but also when
I started working at Duke Hospital, there were a number
of I remember there was a case that I had
of a man who had fought in World War Two.
He had been part of the D-Day invasion. Um, he had, uh,
his entire platoon was wiped out. And at one point
(03:55):
a tank had a German tank had run over his
legs and he could walk. He was fine and lived
out the rest of his work life fine. When he retired,
all of a sudden he had developed paralysis in his legs. Really,
and he couldn't move anymore. And I watched as the doctors, um,
(04:17):
work through his trauma and helped him remember this experience
of the German tank running over his legs while the
rest of his platoon was being wiped out. And as
he processed the trauma, his ability to walk came back.
S1 (04:30):
It came back.
S2 (04:31):
So those were the kind of things that really got
me interested in trauma.
S1 (04:34):
Oh my goodness. So then that's wild. So it's all
kind of this repressed sort of memory that just finally
came out when what essentially he, he had the, the, the,
his life was in a position where he could just
come out then.
S2 (04:49):
Well, yeah, like a lot of men, one of the
ways we cope is by staying busy, distracting ourselves and
work provides a great way to do that. Um, I
forget what this guy did for a living, but he
worked 20 hours a day. I mean, he worked all
the time, seven days a week. And when he retired,
all of a sudden he didn't have that anymore. And
(05:10):
so he that way of avoiding the pain just came
flooding back.
S1 (05:16):
So it's an interesting word you say avoiding, because what
I see from the personal injury context is, of course,
not nearly as severe as that or as intense as that. Um, but,
you know, it's inconvenient to have an injury. It's inconvenient
to have trauma. And so you get a lot of
people who are, you know, for, for a, for a
lack of a better term for the layman's term of
(05:37):
just in denial. And I don't know if it's denial
or just hoping that it's going to be better. Right.
S2 (05:44):
Yeah. And it's probably a little of both. I mean,
we we all want to do the stuff we want
to do. And when, um, physical limitations or psychological limitations
get in the way of that, we just act like
they're not there.
S1 (06:01):
Yeah. And then. And so then this guy could have just.
He could just act like it's not there, and then
it pops up all this time. That's so fascinating because
in in the personal injury context, I can see that happening.
And so from, from what I can see is that
as long as somebody is busy, they can deal with
something or or not deal with it.
S2 (06:20):
Exactly. So they can be busy. They can be. Staying
high is another common way to cope with it. They
can get into gambling. They can do. They can get
into compulsive sex. There are a lot of different avenues
for avoiding.
S1 (06:35):
Okay. So then let me ask you this one. In
this with your 40 years of experience in this, what
would you say are some of the most misunderstood items
when it comes to trauma and its impact on mental health?
S2 (06:50):
Well, there are a lot of, I think, common kinds
of things that happen. People often get depressed. They suffer
from anxiety. Uh, what what's less seen are feelings of
shame that come, come with this loss of self-worth. Um,
for men in particular, when they've suffered some sort of
emotional or brain related trauma and they're unable to work,
(07:15):
that's a huge avenue that's cut off. Um, they're cut
off from that. Provides a sense of meaning and purpose
in their lives, on the one hand, but it also
provides them with a sense of social connection and belongingness
on another. Um, their sense of identity is often overly
tied into work, uh, in a way that, um, is
(07:36):
not necessarily true for women. For many women, work is
a central purpose in their lives, but for men, we're
just routinely socialized over and over again. What are you
going to be when you grow up? The first question
people ask you, what do you do for a living? Yeah,
they don't ask you, what do you like to do
for fun?
S1 (07:54):
Yeah.
S2 (07:55):
Um, so it's just a central thing. And when when
a physical or emotional injury gets in the way, men
often don't know what to do with that.
S1 (08:04):
Yeah. Okay. And so I mean, from what I've seen too,
you know, personally and then just professionally seeing from clients
is you get your this sort of social network in
your work and then Regardless of the pecking order of
where you're at, you're fulfilling, you're fulfilling a duty. And
it's this kind of this social duty that you're able
(08:24):
to say, hey, I get to show up. I got
people above me, below me, relying on me. I am,
even if I'm a cog in this wheel, I am
helping it turn. And when you can no longer do that,
it can lead to isolation, right?
S2 (08:38):
Absolutely. Men don't tend to pick up the phone and
call each other and just, hey, how are you doing?
My wife does that all the time. I don't do it. Yeah. Um, my.
I meet friends through work, through, uh, my other hobbies
and activities that I like. But we do things together.
That's what men do. And if you're injured and you
can't do those things, um, then you're cut off.
S1 (09:02):
So it's interesting that you say shame because it's kind
of this, this funny thing where you have so trauma
which can lead to other emotional aspects. Yes. And then
shame comes from it. Tell me about that.
S2 (09:15):
So a lot of times it men will feel like
if I can't do the job that I'm supposed to do,
if I can't provide for my family, then there's a
there's a component that goes with that, which is I'm
not a man.
S1 (09:28):
Yeah.
S2 (09:29):
And that's something men we do to ourselves, because we've
been taught that our ability to provide and serve that
kind of function is a crucial part of who we
are as men. And so that's where the sense of
shame comes. I'm not a man if I can't do
these things.
S1 (09:47):
So then there must be a ripple effect throughout the
entire kind of social structure, right? So with its with
its family, spouses, children, any sort of group that they
belong to work, you know, religious groups, church. Yep. Stuff
like that. Right.
S2 (10:04):
Exactly. So there may be physical barriers, mobility issues that
keep them from getting involved. Um, there could also be the,
the fear of how am I going to be treated if, um,
if I can't participate in the conversation like all my
coworkers can because I don't know what's going on anymore
or I don't know the inside jokes.
S1 (10:26):
Oh, because you're not there for that time.
S2 (10:29):
Exactly.
S1 (10:30):
So it's it's not just about being plugged in. It's
about being plugged in and constantly there.
S2 (10:37):
Yes.
S1 (10:37):
So and you know, what I have seen is, you know, hey,
it's for even for the unseen aspect of the emotional
aspect that comes from trauma. If you have a catastrophic injury,
I think that those of us who are not suffering
that can, can really see what it is. Sure. What
I've seen as well is even smaller impacts. So, for instance,
(10:59):
let's say you have somebody who, you know, maybe they're
living on the on the fence of life, but they're
doing it. They're showing up. They're getting their kids to school,
they're showing up at work. They're they're enjoying themselves, but
they're still kind of on the fence. You have one
even minor sort of something that happens to them and
it just throws them off.
S2 (11:17):
Yes.
S1 (11:17):
From a psychological standpoint, what happens to that person?
S2 (11:22):
Well, oftentimes, again, those senses, that sense of shame, and
I'm not living up to what I'm supposed to be
doing kicks in. They don't they have trouble reaching out
for help. So they feel embarrassed, like I can't go
to my friends, my family, my siblings and say, hey,
(11:43):
I need a place to stay, or can I? Can
you loan me some money to get through this? Yeah. Um,
and so they they would rather suffer and see things
fall apart than reach out.
S1 (11:54):
That's so sad. It is. What is it, emotionally or biologically,
that makes us do that?
S2 (12:02):
Well, I think emotionally, um, you know, we're taught to
especially in, in this country, we're taught to be self-sufficient
and independent, and that's, that's a value that is not
shared by every culture. And there's some things that are
good about being self-sufficient and independent, but there's some real
limitations to it as well. And when you live in
(12:24):
a society that's not that way, that's more community oriented.
Perhaps then you may feel like you don't get enough privacy,
but that you have a safety net that doesn't necessarily
exist in our society.
S1 (12:39):
You have a almost like you. You have this built
in boat that no matter what happens to you, you're
always flowing with that boat.
S2 (12:46):
Exactly.
S1 (12:47):
Okay. And there's some actually some very interesting things, some
connections to our society and kind of our founding that I,
that I want to talk about. But but one thing that,
that I'm kind of curious about is so we spent
the past ten minutes or so talking about the impact
on on men and have kind of touched a little
bit on women. But so what is that sort of
emotional trauma that comes from, or the emotional impact that
comes from trauma that women might suffer?
S2 (13:10):
Well, for women, I think there's a fear of, um,
of being judged, of being blamed for things that, um,
that they didn't cause. Yeah. But they there's a tendency to,
for women as a group to, to say, well, what
what did I do? What's wrong with me or why me?
(13:34):
Those kinds of things, um, that men do too, but
not as much. Um, for women. There's also, I think,
a sense of, um, they also struggle with shame. Yeah.
You know, you think of the The Scarlet Letter as
being this sort of classic, uh, way of of, uh,
(13:57):
demonstrating that. Yeah, but the sense of, oh, you know,
I'm not going to be liked or lovable anymore because
of what happened to me.
S1 (14:06):
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's wild. So, you know, one of
the things that I'm curious as, and I think most
people now post-pandemic, I mean, here we are five years later.
And for those who had for all of us who
had to live through it. Yeah. For those who had
kids who were at kind of formidable ages, who seen
what's happened to those kids now kind of coming out
(14:27):
of it, I think that people today have a much
better understanding of what isolation is and how terrible it is.
S2 (14:34):
Yes.
S1 (14:35):
But so how do we get. How is it that
we make the connection between even even a, a fender
bender or some sort of trauma from a car crash,
a motorcycle crash, a slip and fall or something to
where we're isolated. How? If you're explaining to a patient
that doesn't necessarily see those connections, what sort of steps
(14:57):
are you taking to describe that to kind of show
the pathway?
S2 (15:01):
Yeah. So from the accident to the isolation, there are
three different things to look at. So you've got the emotional,
you've got the cognitive and you've got the physical. Yeah.
And so from a physical point of view, there may
be physical injuries that limit mobility.
S1 (15:18):
Pain.
S2 (15:19):
Exactly. Pain which colors everything causes fatigue, depression a sense
of hopelessness. You can't concentrate and focus attention if you're
in pain. Yeah. Pain can take over a person's life. Yeah.
And paints everything black. Then emotionally again, if you're you're
(15:41):
cut off from being able to live the life you
want to live, be involved with your family and work
and your the things you're interested in, that's a loss.
You may become afraid that these bad things that happen
to you are going to happen to you again. So
you create a sense of anxiety or post-traumatic stress. And
then cognitively as well, you can have difficulties forming new
(16:04):
memories with reasoning and problem solving that weren't there before.
S1 (16:08):
So actual like, would that be a I mean, it's biological, right? Yes.
So it's going to be a physical barrier.
S2 (16:15):
Exactly.
S1 (16:16):
So physically.
S2 (16:17):
Yeah. So, so yeah. From if you have post-traumatic stress,
for example, you have difficulty forming new memories. Your amygdala,
which is the part of the brain that processes emotions,
is in a constant state of hyper arousal. So every
little thing that happens, you overreact to it.
S1 (16:35):
And that's chemicals coming from the brain and rushing the body.
S2 (16:38):
Exactly.
S1 (16:39):
So and that's what's kind of wild because you think
about this. You know, it's easy to see in the
in the injury context. It's easy to see a physical injury. Right.
Somebody falls and they hit their head or they hit
their arm. They hit their shoulder. Well, boom. You have
a you have a physical injury. But now from that
physical injury you have this emotional injury which then the
(17:00):
emotional injury becomes physical because it's biological.
S2 (17:03):
Yes.
S1 (17:04):
That's kind of wild.
S2 (17:05):
It is.
S1 (17:05):
That's kind of.
S2 (17:06):
Wild. It's all tied together.
S1 (17:07):
Yeah. Um. Wow. You know, one of the thing that
kind of makes me think about is I had a
case once where this woman, uh, she fell, you know,
she was at work, and so she falls and she
hurts her left knee and had major issues with the
left knee. So then all of a sudden, what do
you have to do? Compensate, compensate and favor the right one.
And then it was so then she overworked her right knee.
(17:28):
And then that was related from from the comp context
was related to the underlying injury.
S2 (17:35):
Yes.
S1 (17:35):
And so it kind of sounds like that. But again
for us you can see that.
S2 (17:41):
Right?
S1 (17:42):
Right. And so but from the emotional aspect, it is,
as we're saying, in the unseen injury part of it.
S2 (17:47):
Exactly. So when you have brain injuries or emotional injuries,
those are the unseen injuries. Because to the casual observer
you look fine. You look like everything's good. But then
when you talk to someone or spend time with them,
the injury becomes more apparent.
S1 (18:06):
So then and this was going to be my next question.
Is that so somebody shows up at your at your door,
they sit down on your couch or chair or whatever
you have or had. Uh, what are you doing to like,
I guess, probe to find out. I mean, my doctor,
you know, they hit your knee. Boom. I got a reflex.
There we go. What are you hitting? What tools are
you using?
S2 (18:25):
So I use two primary tools an interview and psychological testing.
So during the interview, it's not just a casual conversation.
It's very structured. So there are specific things I want
to get at both historical information as well as things
about current functioning. Okay. So then I'll ask.
S1 (18:43):
What do you mean by current functioning.
S2 (18:45):
So I'll ask about symptoms. I'll ask about how you
think about things, how you process this emotion. What does
this mean to you? What what are the losses that
you're experiencing right now. So those kind of pointed questions.
S1 (18:59):
That's that's all like as they say subjective. That's tough
to get.
S2 (19:03):
Exactly.
S1 (19:03):
There's no there's no AI automation with this one. No. Yeah.
S2 (19:07):
Um, and some people respond very well to those kind
of direct questions because people around them aren't asking those
kind of questions. So it's an opportunity. I'm inviting them
to share their pain with me. And many people will
will steer away from that. They don't want to hear
it like loved ones. It scares them.
S1 (19:24):
Okay.
S2 (19:25):
Um, and so for some people, that's an avenue they're
very willing to take. Other people are reluctant. So we
have psychological testing as a separate avenue. So the testing
is often more paper and pencil asking answering questions on
a sheet of paper, looking at inkblots, responding to those, um,
(19:46):
taking cognitive tasks. And some people prefer to reveal themselves
more in that way. They're more comfortable doing it.
S1 (19:53):
So have after 40 years of doing it, when somebody
sits down, do you have a sense of whether they're
going to be better at the or not better, but
whether they're going to be more open to the the
interview with you or to the testing?
S2 (20:04):
That's kind of the cool thing. In 40 years, I
have no clue. I'm always surprised which which avenue people
are going to take.
S1 (20:10):
So this is what is so fascinating about it. 40
years experience, more than 40 years experience. And still it's
kind of baffling. And it requires like deep like diving
into it.
S2 (20:22):
Well, because I don't know again what avenue people are
going to be comfortable taking. Yeah. And and letting me
get to know them.
S1 (20:28):
So then I mean, this is kind of wild then
it's I mean, not to say that I feel hopeless
right now for everybody, but what is the hope that
people can have to get get beyond this?
S2 (20:37):
Well, the hope really is in finding ways to connect.
S1 (20:42):
So let me ask you that one. Finding ways to connect.
So if if I'm suffering, are you saying finding ways
that I can connect with with the outside world socially?
Or is it that I can connect with what is
going on with me?
S2 (20:53):
A little bit of both. And they have to kind
of occur simultaneously. So if we take the scenario, a
person had a full life, they were happy with their life.
They have the injury, they've become isolated. Part of the
isolation is comes from their avoidance of dealing with things.
(21:14):
Their denial, on the one hand, their wish, it'll go
away on the other. But it also comes from other
people pulling back or being pushed away by the person
they a lot of injured people become more irritable, for example,
harder to be around, or they clam up and just
don't talk as much. And other people eventually will sort
(21:35):
of give up on them. Yeah, but what has to
happen is the person needs to share their pain, what
they're feeling, what they're thinking. Other people need to become
receptive to listening to it. Okay. And then if their
old avenues of work and being involved with a group
of people are no longer there, they need to find
(21:57):
new avenues.
S1 (21:58):
Okay. Okay. That is heavy. And it's not like, hey,
you broke your arm and put it in a cast
and come back in six weeks.
S2 (22:07):
Yeah, no. And I think, for example, of examples of
athletes who were stellar Olympic quality or professional quality athletes
who suffered devastating injuries, who then regroup and become involved
in Special Olympics as one way of talking about it,
or coaching, I mean, finding a new way to do
(22:29):
the things that you've always loved to do.
S1 (22:31):
In a positive way.
S2 (22:32):
Yes.
S1 (22:33):
So you know this one, what I want to kind
of bring it to because I'm kind of curious, you know,
one of the things that I've kind of been thrown
around in my head for the past couple of years is,
you know, as a personal injury attorney, we're always talking
about general damages. And what we're doing in this podcast
is really about general damage. It's the unseen aspect of it.
It's not it's not a lost wage. It's not paying
a doctor for a surgery or a broken arm or
(22:55):
something like that. And so, you know, you think about
our founding, our founding document, where you have Thomas Jefferson saying,
you know, Known the right to life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness, which, if you really look back at that,
it's a wild, wild statement in this, in this first
off saying, you know, the ruffian bastards in England doing
(23:17):
all these things to us, but then this, this, this
comment and when, when I look into it, what I
see are general damages in that the he Jefferson wasn't
saying that we're guaranteed happiness, but we're we're guaranteed the
right to pursue the happiness. And so when I look
at what are general damages, it's, it's the, the opposite
(23:40):
of that happiness. And so when you're describing all of this,
this is what I'm seeing. You know, you think about, okay,
so a person who for whatever reason, you know, they
they they're in their social structure, they're happy, they feel
fulfilled and then something is taken away from them.
S2 (23:55):
Exactly.
S1 (23:55):
Do you have any thoughts from the psychological aspect about,
you know, you did mention In our culture. But you
know those words from Jefferson? The pursuit of happiness and
what happens when we no longer can pursue that, or
there's some sort of physical or mental block to that?
S2 (24:12):
Yeah. Well, and it's funny because, um, I bought a
t shirt at a national park that changed that up
a little bit. It said the pursuit is happiness. And
and there's a real truth to that. And it fits
with this because if we feel like we can't pursue
the things that make us feel like ourselves, that bring
(24:32):
us joy.
S1 (24:33):
Yeah.
S2 (24:34):
Then that's the the hidden injury. Yeah. Because we can't
get better at our jobs. We can't be fully present
with the people we love, um, because we can't pursue
the things that we enjoy.
S1 (24:48):
Well, and for me, what's so sad about it? Because
seeing it on, on my side of things is that,
you know, as you're saying, shame gets involved in this,
and shame is not a good word. Right. You know,
when it says, hey, you know, I'm feeling a little
shameful today. Right. It's not. You don't ever feel good
when that word comes up, right. And so but it
I think that people it's we're told we're brought up
(25:10):
to believe or whatever. There's no connection made between the
founding of this country, meaning pursuing that happiness and what
it means when we're unable to do that.
S2 (25:18):
Right.
S1 (25:19):
And so I think what what I'm looking at as
well is, and I think you've covered a lot of it,
is that, I mean, how is it that we can
explain that to someone who has suffered trauma and more importantly,
to those around the person who has suffered trauma?
S2 (25:34):
Yeah. I think that people are people around. The traumatized
person have also suffered a loss. And that's often not
recognized either. But the person that they used to enjoy
in certain ways or spend time with or who provided
for them certain things, they've lost that too.
S1 (25:54):
And the worst part is that you've lost it. Maybe
not necessarily completely, but in little bits and pieces.
S2 (25:58):
Exactly.
S1 (25:59):
And it's like a game of Jenga, right? You pull
out enough, enough cubes and it falls.
S2 (26:04):
Exactly. Yeah. And there's enough of the person still there. Yeah,
but it's different. And so everybody around you has to
adjust as well. And so together, people have to find
a new way to connect okay. It's kind of like, um,
if you've if you've taken a boat and it's been damaged,
(26:26):
you can get that boat back in the water, but
you might have to redesign it.
S3 (26:31):
We'll be right back with more insights from the front
lines of healing, advocacy and accountability. Stay with us.
S4 (26:43):
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for you. I recently flew to Seattle. Yes. Literally flew
to attend the FBI con conference. That's the Association of
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I recorded a series of one on one interviews for
From the Nest with some of the most inspiring leaders,
(27:05):
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(27:26):
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S5 (27:35):
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(27:56):
head over to Olas Media Dot com or wherever you
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S1 (28:13):
So as part of your job as well, you've gone in,
you know, you've had a lot of forensic work you've done.
I've had you as an expert. Uh, how is it
that you or the injured victim or the or the
attorney is able to show this sort of unseen trauma
in the legal setting?
S2 (28:30):
Well, I think that we demonstrate it through what the
person is able to tell us. We demonstrate it by
comparing their test results to a standardized sample, so that
you can see them in relation to a normative group
of people. Yeah.
S1 (28:47):
And are we all is there is there such a thing.
S2 (28:50):
From a from a statistical point of view? There is
from a, from a more conventional point of view. I
it's I'm kind of glad nobody's normal. It makes life
a lot more interesting. And leaves the bar where we
can all attain it. Um, but I think that we
use that kind of. Scientific way of showing how this
person is different from the norm. Statistical norm. And that,
(29:15):
I think, makes a strong impression.
S1 (29:17):
Let me ask you from the forensic side of things,
because what I'm hearing is it's. And from what I've
seen in my own practice, it's if I want to
know how somebody is doing, I don't ask them. The
victim is the worst person to ask. I ask those
around them. And then I see, you know, reading a
bunch of brain injury books, a bunch of trauma books.
And the books are written for family. Yeah. Family members
of the trauma victim. So how are you able to,
(29:40):
on the forensic side, incorporate whether you've talked to the family,
gotten statements from the family? How are you able to
first off, hear from the friends and family and then
incorporate that into what you do to show?
S2 (29:52):
Well, that's the the third I talked to, we talked
first about the interview and the psychological testing. The other
part of a forensic evaluation is what we would call
third party information. So this is medical records, psychological records,
work records, school records, but also talking to people who've
known the person before and after the injury.
S1 (30:13):
You're before and after witnesses.
S2 (30:14):
Exactly. And so when you have, when you talk to
4 or 5 people who know the person well and
you begin to see consistency in the stories, this is
what he was like before. This is what's going on now.
Then that becomes another important, compelling piece of evidence.
S1 (30:33):
And is there anything, any suggestions you have for for
the family members, for the friends and family members?
S2 (30:39):
Yes. I mean, I think for the friends and family,
it's remembering that all you don't need to do anything
special other than just be there, stay involved, interact at
whatever level you can encourage. Um, don't say, you know,
how are you doing in general? How are you doing
right now? That's the kind of question that injured and
(31:03):
people and people who are struggling can relate to. How
are you?
S1 (31:08):
That's a scary question.
S2 (31:09):
It is a very scary question.
S1 (31:10):
A scary question to ask because you know what you
might get.
S2 (31:13):
Yeah, you might get. I feel like jumping off a
building today or I feel like crap today. Yeah. And
but if that's where the person is starting, if you
can be there with that person and encourage them to
talk about it, it will change its connection.
S1 (31:29):
Human connection.
S2 (31:30):
Absolutely.
S1 (31:31):
So and that's my next point. What I was fascinated about,
somebody had shared something on LinkedIn about some Harvard Business
Journal review, talking about the top uses of AI in
2025 and the first last year, it was it was really,
really nerdy. And I write for the top one, but
this one it had to do with here. I got
(31:52):
to get it right. Companionship and in therapy. So this
is wild for generative AI in the United States, the
top use is going to be about companionship and therapy. Yeah.
As a as a psychologist, what do you think of that?
S2 (32:12):
Well, I think it's a reflection of our culture in
general and of our culture in this particular point in time.
We are desperate for connection. It's it's the fundamental part
of of being human. And yet in our society, which
doesn't necessarily provide a lot of positive support for connection, um,
(32:36):
you know, people flock to for political and religious stuff,
anything to feel a sense of connection regardless of what's
going on in the movement. Yeah. Um, AI seems to
offer the illusion of connection, like social media offers the
illusion of connection.
S1 (32:55):
Do you think that it could actually offer a connection?
S2 (33:01):
Certainly not as it is now. Yeah. I mean, um,
I mean, I play around with this stuff because I'm
curious and people are doing it, and I want to
see what what it's like, um, it's it's it's entertaining. Yeah. Um,
it's kind of fascinating because, you know, robots are a
fascinating thing, and you can kind of see it headed there,
(33:21):
but there's, um, if you ever saw the movie, I
think it was called her.
S1 (33:25):
Yes. I was just going with. Yes, yes, yes.
S2 (33:28):
And so this guy is falling in love with this
voice and, um.
S1 (33:33):
Lovely voice.
S2 (33:34):
Lovely voice. I mean, everybody watching the movie falls in
love with her. And then you realize towards the end
of the movie that she's been doing this with thousands
of people simultaneously. That's what robots do. There's no emotional connection. Yeah.
And that's the part that can never be done by AI.
S1 (33:52):
So what we need more is less therapy in AI
and more trivia nights at your local establishments.
S2 (33:57):
Hey, you know, because you figure out if you're into
the same friends trivia night, then that's the way you
start a connection.
S1 (34:05):
It's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. You know,
before we kind of conclude this one thing, I know
that you have had a big change in your life recently. Right?
So after how many, 43 years? Yeah, 43 years, over
4000 forensic interviews, all sorts of other accolades, all sorts
of other things. You have retired from the main practice.
S2 (34:27):
As of two weeks ago.
S1 (34:28):
Yes, as of two weeks ago. And you're and you're here.
So again, I thank you. But. So tell me, what
are you doing right now?
S2 (34:35):
Um, I am pursuing a lifelong interest in songwriting.
S1 (34:38):
Okay, so tell me about that.
S2 (34:40):
So I've played in bands since I was 13, started
writing songs when I was 17 and have always loved it, but,
you know, had to accept early on I wasn't going
to be Elton John. Um, and I didn't. I saw
my friend Paul. Exactly. And, you know, I saw my
friends just playing in bars six nights a week and
(35:00):
not getting anywhere, and so decided to do something different. Yeah,
but the passion for it never left. And now, in
a place where I can do it and not worry
about making a living at it.
S1 (35:10):
So then and that's kind of an interesting thing. So
do you see a connection between, you know, your worlds,
your past life as a psychologist and your current life
as a musician?
S2 (35:21):
Very much so. Writing music for me is a very
healing thing. It's a it's a way of self-discovery. Um,
songwriters often talk about it's they're addressing themselves to the
world and sort of saying, this is who I am,
but they do it in a way. Effective songwriters do
it in a way so that other people can relate
to it. Oh, you're telling my story.
S1 (35:44):
There's a connection.
S2 (35:45):
Exactly.
S1 (35:46):
You know Cat Stevens father and son, right?
S2 (35:48):
Oh, absolutely.
S1 (35:49):
I was just talking with somebody about some probate matter,
and it was like the father died. The son's mad
because he got nothing. But, you know, all these sort
of things happen and it's just like I was just
thought of. Here's this song from the 60s.
S2 (36:00):
Sure.
S1 (36:01):
So then what do you see yourself having kind of
the music for emotional healing impact?
S2 (36:08):
Yeah. I mean, some of the songs I write have
nothing to do with healing. They're just fun songs or
they're political songs, but other songs are very much directed
towards healing. Yeah. Um, as an example, I wrote a
song called Nothing Left to Say About a Guy. It's
written from the woman's point of view, living with a
man who suffered trauma early in his life, and he
(36:32):
can never talk about it. And what that's kind of
like for her.
S1 (36:37):
So in your experience, have you seen a song like
that either? I suppose the hope having the man be
able to open up in some sense, and then maybe
some some understanding from the woman?
S2 (36:49):
Exactly. I mean, so when people the feedback I get
about that song in particular is one of, oh, it
helped me understand him. And then there's a point in
the song where the chorus changes, so it's not just
I can't get in touch with my feelings, but there's
a way in which the man does open up.
S1 (37:08):
Okay.
S2 (37:08):
And so there's a more positive end to the song.
S1 (37:12):
So then is there anything that you can do now
that kind of pushes that out? Because really, if somebody's
listening to a song, it's I don't want to say
it's passive. It's passive from your perspective because you're putting it.
I should say this once you've written it and it's
out there. Yes. It's you're sleeping, you're drinking coffee, you're
at a podcast, you're doing something else. And somebody could
listen to that. So passive in that sense. Yeah. Is
there some some something that you can do or you
(37:33):
have plans of doing to kind of push that out
there to kind of make that connection?
S2 (37:37):
Yeah. Well, I'm learning a lot about marketing.
S1 (37:39):
Oh.
S2 (37:40):
For one thing, I'm learning that people don't just music
doesn't just come to people. There's a lot of marketing
behind every song we ever hear. Yeah. Um, but I'm
also thinking about trying to combine this passion for music
and my mental health history into things like, uh, YouTube
channel or whatever that that promotes that kind of dialogue
(38:02):
and connection and healing through music.
S1 (38:05):
Well, let me tell you this. I want to thank
you so much for coming here. This has been fantastic. Just, uh,
for for me personally as a personal injury attorney doing
this for 16 some odd years, this is what is
a wild part of it that that I love being
able to get out there. So thank you for coming. Sure. Um,
but before we go, so the YouTube. Not yet, but
(38:27):
where can we find you for your musical healing or
just music?
S2 (38:31):
Any place you listen to music, just type in Clark
Clipson I'm on Spotify, Apple, YouTube. Um, so it's I'm
easy to find.
S1 (38:40):
All right. Well, hey, thank you. And I hope that
we have more conversations in your retirement time to come.
S2 (38:45):
Thank you so much for having me. It's fun.
S1 (38:57):
Now it's time for the Myths and Facts segment of
our podcast, where we separate truth from fiction. There's a
lot of information out there and not all of it
is accurate. So we're here to set the record straight
with real facts from your trusted attorney. Let's dive in.
Myth versus fact. The emotional impact of personal injury myth.
(39:19):
Once the physical injuries heal, people go back to normal. Fact.
Physical recovery is just one part of the journey. Many
clients struggle long after their bodies heal with depression, anxiety,
and loss of identity. Just because the cast is off
doesn't mean the damage is gone. Once the physical injuries heal,
people go back to normal. Fact physical recovery is just
(39:43):
one part of the journey. Many clients struggle long after
their bodies heal with depression, anxiety, and loss of identity.
Just because the cast is off doesn't mean the damage
is gone. Emotional trauma can last longer and go untreated
if it's not acknowledged. Myth isolation after an injury is
just a personal problem. It's not something lawyers need to
(40:06):
worry about. Fact isolation is often a direct consequence of injury,
especially when somebody can't return to work or social life.
As a personal injury lawyer, I see this all the
time and it matters in court. Emotional harm is real
harm and it should be part of every case strategy
when seeking justice. Myth the legal system is only about money,
(40:31):
not about people's lives or happiness. Fact personal injury law
exists to restore what was lost physically, financially, emotionally. At
its core, it's about helping people reclaim their lives, dignity,
and the pursuit of happiness. The legal system, when it
works right, can recognize the full human cost of injury,
(40:53):
not just the dollar amount. That's it for this episode
of Unseen Impact. A huge thank you to Doctor Clark
Clipson for sharing his insight and decades of experience with us.
I think his perspective reminds us that personal injury doesn't
just leave physical scars, it can fracture identity, purpose, and connection.
If you or someone you love is navigating the emotional
(41:14):
aftermath of trauma, know that you're not alone. Recovery isn't
just about treatment. It's about being seen, heard, and supported.
You've been listening to Unseen Impact. If you liked today's episode,
make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and
leave us a review. It really helps others find the show.
For more stories, updates and information on legal related topics,
(41:35):
follow us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. At Law Firm,
you can also learn more about our work or book
a free consultation with us at Rory Law.com. Thanks for
being part of this conversation. Remember, justice isn't just about
what happens in court, it's about what happens after. I'm
Rory Pendergast from Rory Law. See you next time.
S3 (42:00):
Thanks for tuning in to Unseen Impact with Rory Pendergast.
Please follow, subscribe, and maybe share this episode with someone
who's walking their own path to recovery or justice. You
can find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn at
Rory Law Firm. To learn more about legal services or
get in touch, visit Rory Law.com. Unseen impact is recorded
(42:24):
in San Diego, California, and proudly produced by Eolas Media,
an IVC media company.
S6 (42:45):
O media.
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