August 18, 2025 • 44 mins
What’s fueling the rise of the online manosphere, and how different is today’s incel culture from historic forms of misogyny? In this episode, we break down the ideologies driving men’s rights activists, red pillers, MGTOWs, alpha males, and pickup artists. We explore how shifting gender roles, economic instability, and backlash to movements like #MeToo have shaped this toxic digital subculture.
What draws so many young, alienated boys into these spaces? From mental health struggles to feelings of powerlessness, we explore the emotional landscape that makes the manosphere so appealing, and so dangerous.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
It's time for you and me to stand up for ourselves.
Welcome to Unwashed and Unruly, From the great unwashed to the
gloriously unruly. Today we'll be entering the deep
underworld of the manosphere, exploring involuntary celibates
who describe themselves as in cells, hyper masculinity and the
sexual hierarchy. Bring your chest hair and some
(00:31):
roids. I'm your host Lola Michaels with
Doctor Deep Cut Ezra Saeed. Hi, everybody.
And pop culture decoder Cam cruise.
What up, homies? You can reach us at
unwashedunruly@gmail.com. What's responsible for the
growth of online male supremacy?Is today's in cell subculture
that different from historical manifestations of misogyny?
(00:55):
In the depths of the manosphere there are red pills and black
pills. There's victimhood and suicide,
anti woman content and real world aggression.
It's a phenomenon that's cultural, economic,
psychological, and of course, political.
Some say this is simply another resurgence of traditional
masculinity. Others say it's a specific
(01:15):
rollback to the gains of women'sindependence.
OR even a backlash to me too. So let's first define some of
these terms. They're probably a lot of broad
conceptions of what the manosphere is about, who the key
players are. One thing we can say is that
these are people forming A distinct identity around what
they view as an inability to have sexual and romantic
(01:36):
relationships. So what is the manosphere?
What does incel mean? What are the bullet points of
the core beliefs of these groups?
Cam. Crack open the cold one, boys.
Jump on your hot rods because we're riding into the manosphere
real hot baby Woo. Thank you for that very feminine
intro, Lola, that was beautiful.Thank you.
(01:59):
So yeah, like you said, I'm going to take us around the
manosphere today. We're going to talk about some
of the groups that make up the manosphere and some of the
social conditions that created this manosphere.
The manosphere is made-up of a lot of different groups, but the
all of the groups have certain things in common.
So one of the things that they have in common is they are all
misogynist. Yes, they all really don't like
(02:20):
women. They see women as deceptive or
inferior. Another trait of all of these
groups is male victimhood. They believe that men are the
true oppressed class and that modern culture has sidelined
men. They believe in a hyper
masculine picture, a really, really kind of traditional old
school picture of what it means to be a man, what masculinity
(02:40):
looks like. They all have social
hierarchies, they talk a lot about values.
They all have this internal lexicon that kind of pigeonholes
different peoples and puts them into a hierarchical schema.
They're all anti feminist. They all blame the feminist
movements for having led to social decline and to male
dissatisfaction. And there's also a trend of
(03:02):
loneliness and frustration that we'll see in all of these
groups. And lastly, these are all echo
chambers. These are not the kind of forums
that you go to to kind of have debates or discuss different
ideas. Everybody's here just kind of on
the same trend and kind of dumping on women and all on the
same page together. So yeah, this is a place people
go to feel validated and to havetheir ideas kind of propped up.
(03:25):
So first, when you talk about this is where people go, where
are they going? So these are online spaces and
actually some of them are more accessible than others.
So if you want to find about grind and hustle culture in the
alpha male manosphere, that's really accessible.
But if you're looking for red pill content or in cell
contents, these are actually terms that have been banned on
(03:48):
Instagram and on Tiktok. So if you look for forums that
are for in cells, they're actually very hard to find.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat people who identify as part
of this manosphere look like. I can kind of assume that some
of the stereotypes, at least when I think of an in cell in
particular as white, young, heterosexual, conservative.
(04:11):
The first time I heard about male rights, I think, and in
cells at least, was during Trump, one point O, when I was
learning about the Proud Boys. So the media connection that I
made was with these MAGA types, but I know that people who are
attracted to the manosphere kindof run the gamut in terms of
race and sexuality and age. So even if you don't have the
(04:33):
exact demographic data, can you tell us a little bit more about
what these people look like who are attracted to this online
subculture? A really big common
misconception is that the majority of people involved in
the manosphere are white, that they're young.
But what did we actually see when we look at the data is
there's a really broad, diverse range of men.
(04:55):
And if you look at each facet ofthe manosphere, each of those
facets represents a different reaction to the changing
political climate and to the gains made by women.
So if I can take you guys on a journey through these groups,
I'm going to start first with the pickup artist.
And pickup artist became popularin the early 2000s.
(05:16):
There is a book about it called The Game, and in this book he
follows around a pickup artist. And the pickup artist are kind
of like the mathematicians of the dating world.
Their whole thing is they want to try to create specific
formulas that men can use to attract and seduce women.
Most of those formulas are not like I'm going to be charming
(05:37):
and kind to attract a woman or I'm going to be sensitive and
intelligent. They're mostly praying on
insecurities and they're manipulative.
One of the most popular tactics that they use is a tactic called
nagging. And nagging is about giving
underhanded compliments that kind of try to throw off the
person you're giving the commentto.
So like, I might look at Ezra's shirt and say, like, oh, that's
(05:59):
a really cool shirt. My niece has the same shirt.
So it's like, I'm saying it's a nice shirt.
But at the same time, now Ezra is like, wait, if your niece has
it, like, is that not so cool? So it's kind of creating a
dynamic where I have like a stepabove and I'm trying to get you
to try to earn my approval. So that's the idea behind
nagging. Pickup artists are men who go
(06:21):
into spaces and try to manipulate women into sexual
encounters. And this is not about creating
lasting relationships. This is like basically about
numbers getting in there, getting as many women as you
can. And the men who are in this
group, the demographic is actually middle class to upper
middle class. And it makes sense because it's
kind of a nerdy approach to getting women.
(06:41):
Like I'm going to study to get women.
I've discovered that the hottestgirl, instead of approaching her
group directly, if I were to approach an adjacent set, build
social proof and draw the hot set in, I would get the girl
from the second set. She would feel much more
(07:02):
comfortable with me because I'm with friends.
I'm a safe bet I'm pre selected by having women with me already
and therefore I'm considered attractive to the second set.
Even as gross as that is, they're probably among the least
repulsive and dangerous within the manosphere.
I don't know, it sounded like itwas getting ready to go out for
(07:24):
a hunt. Exactly.
And like that's the idea is it'slike if you say the right thing,
if you present yourself the right way, then you'll be able
to attract a mate. So they have more of a self help
approach as a response to the gains of feminism and to the
changing culture. Their ideas like to be that top
guy that girls want to be with. And so those are kind of the
(07:44):
predecessors for the new kind ofpickup artist we have who are
the alpha male influencers, the grind set, hustle culture guys.
So those guys have taken what the pickup artist have done and
taken it to the next level. And they are kind of like the
Cavemen of the of the manosphere.
They have a very silverback approach.
There are guys that hit the gym really hard they're guys who
(08:08):
like are all about having a lot of muscles and having a lot of
money of people who are in the alpha male influencer space talk
a lot about like Bitcoin and getrich quick scheme.
So it's all about like raising your status to be a high value
male so that women will want you.
You don't chase women, women chase you.
A lot of them will talk about being in one way open
(08:30):
relationships. So relationships where they're
having five or six or seven different girlfriends and
they're allowed to sleep with asmany women as they want, as high
value males and women just have to have the gratitude for having
their attention. There's another clip I sent you
guys from a guy named Dan Blazarian.
And yeah, he talks kind of more about that aspect of the alpha
(08:52):
male manosphere. Dating 5 girls I think is harder
than dating like 50 or 100 when you date.
Four or five. Girls, they require more,
they're actually more jealous and they're all kind of like
competing for that main girl role when you're dating like 50
or 100 girls because you're justhappy for the time.
And they're also so interchangeable that they 'cause
you no stress, you don't care. It's not even an idea that they
(09:14):
might be exclusive to dating you.
But when it goes down to like 4 and it becomes more of like a
possible reality, then all of a sudden like the claws come out.
I see. I'm sorry, but as the honorary
male in this group, I have to ask, are we supposed to believe
this guy's dating 50 to 100 girls?
Well, that's part of his brand and the the like, the visual
(09:37):
aesthetic is a really, really big part of all these alpha male
spaces because unlike the in cell forums that exist on Reddit
where everything is kind of it written, all of these alpha male
influences are big on Instagram and on TikTok and so many of
their videos. They're just like all these like
half naked hot girls around. So they they really try to
(09:58):
convey this image of themselves as having this harem of women
falling at their feet. Who are all interchangeable.
Who are all interchangeable. And Dan Bilzerian, like you'll
see he has a neck that's as thick as my thigh.
He's like a really big manly man.
And he has like a really heavy jaw.
And one of the weirdest things about the manosphere is there's
so much focus on jaw lines, man.There's something called jaw
(10:20):
maxing that's becoming more popular within the alpha male
set. And that is like they have these
kind of rubbery blocks that you put into the back of your mouth
and you chew it and you chew it and you chew it until your jaw
becomes really, really big. Big because having a a head of
like defined jawline is one of the most important parts of
being a man, apparently in thesespaces.
(10:41):
I should try it. I have a really defined jawline.
Dude, I, I have to show you somepictures who of people who have
jaw maxed and it looks like crazy because like they just
have like these bulging kind of jowls.
It's, it's, it's, it's really funny.
OK, up next we have trad, which I believe would be for trad
wives. Trad stands for traditional, and
the people who are in this spaces are mostly here for
(11:02):
religious connections. The biggest group is Christians.
And unlike all these other groups that are made of men,
this is the one group that's comprised mostly of women.
And these are Christian women who have very traditional
values. They believe a man should be the
provider and that it is a woman's job to take care of the
household. And a lot of them are giving
Miss Maisel, you know, they're the kind of women you come home
(11:24):
from work, they've got a full face of makeup on, kids are
taking care of food on the table.
So they're really trying to achieve the kind of fantasy of
the 1950s housewife. A lot of them are anti feminist
and talk about how the feminist movement is destroying the
American family. Some of them are not.
Some of them talk about how theywant to have the choice to be a
(11:45):
homemaker. And that's like fine if other
people don't make that choice. But generally it's there's like
a baked in idea that feminism isdestroying the family.
Can I just? Think about how so many of us
since we were little, we were raised in this kind of boss babe
feminist society that told us you can be so much more than
just a mom. You can be so much more than
(12:05):
just a wife. And so many of us listened and
we, you know, tried to climb corporate ladders and we boss
babed so hard now, like we're, we're a little bit boss babed
out. And some of us want to go a
little bit more back to our roots, to our ancestors, to the
women who came before us and live a little bit more, you
know, like they did call us crazy, but we like babies.
We want to have baby. I am getting big time Stepford
(12:29):
wife vibes. And that's definitely a part of
the aesthetic. This is one of those places that
they call an aesthetic space because a lot of it is like,
watch me go play blueberries from my backyard and make a pie.
Like a lot of these are rural girlies, farm girlies.
Like I'm going to milk the cows and then make yogurt for my
babies, Like that kind of thing.Well, that that actually answers
(12:49):
one of the questions I was goingto have because I was when she
said this is the oldest way women lived, I was thinking,
well what is she going to go gathering while her hubby goes
hunting? It kind of sounds like they
wouldn't mind, honestly, from the way they talk about things.
Also, they're really big on Bible verses that are about
serving your husband or your husband is always right, you
(13:10):
know? So yeah, that's trad wives.
It's kind of a religious space, and you can see how this works
for Christianity. Christianity is definitely the
biggest representative, but a lot of religions have this kind
of conservative, fundamentalist,fundamentalist bends.
So the next group we're going tofocus on is the men's rights
activists. And these people take more of
like an activist political kind of approach and they kind of
(13:33):
want to roll black legislation. Some of the things that they'll
talk about are male suicide rates.
They'll talk about how family courts favor women.
So they're more focused on systemic things and like kind of
trying to bring up statistics that show men are in crisis.
And like I said, some of those are kind of reasonable
arguments, like there is really high suicide rates for men.
(13:53):
But then there's like people allthe way on the other end of the
spectrum who are just anti feminist and just want any law
that was made to protect women or empower women to be taken
away that you need to protect and provide at any cost.
But we've changed everything where it concerns women.
They now have access to everything men have always had
(14:15):
access to, to education, to work, to whatever they want to
do. But they're not the ones driving
the semis, and they're not the ones in the coal mines.
You don't hear the National Organization for Women
complaining that there is just not enough female ditch figures.
(14:36):
It is still men carrying the lion's share for what it.
Takes to to operate and maintainthe society.
And it is still the expectation that if somebody's going to go
down with the shift, it's going to be meant.
Oh God. There's so many problems with
that. Yeah, and they also have a
really big problem with this phrase.
Women and children first. They're always talking about how
(14:56):
it's so fucked up. They're like, our lives mean
nothing. I'm sorry.
What are we going to say, Ezra? I was just going to say that
when when you talk about, as youmentioned earlier, the high
suicide rates and all that, it, I would argue that it coincides
with the economy and the social and cultural outlook promoted by
(15:19):
these types, that men are supposed to be the sole
providers, the main providers. And the reality is modern
American capitalism isn't going to allow that.
And so, yeah, it creates a sort of internal crisis, the
combination of the function of modern American capitalism and
(15:39):
these people's ideologies combined together.
Yeah, and that's why I was saying some of the gripes are
real, legitimate gripes. But the approach is very anti
woman. And you can hear from the video,
there's this underlying idea that men are doing the real
work. Men are the ones who are really
holding things together and women are just kind of playing
school when they go to college. What is this next one?
The red pill. So red pill is actually kind of
(16:03):
more of a broad term that can beused to describe a lot of these
groups. The term red pill is a Matrix
reference. And in the movie The Matrix, Neo
takes this pill and it allows him to see the world as it
really is. And that's what the red pillars
are saying, that once you realize that, you're going to
have an awakening that men are the true oppressed class and
that feminism is destroying America.
(16:24):
So where these are kind of the more extreme versions of the
men's rights movement, the men'srights movement draws on a lot
of statistics, whereas the red pillars draw on a lot of
pseudosciences. There's a lot more misogyny.
And there's also some overlap with the alpha males in that
they feel like their role as menis to dominate women and to
provide. And there's a sense of aggrieved
(16:47):
entitlement here. Aggrieved entitlement is a term
that's used to express that men felt like women were old to
them. They talk a lot about how like
in past generations, their grandfather's generation, he
would get a wife no problem. And like, of course that was
because women physically could not live without the support of
a man. But they feel aggrieved by this
(17:09):
change and by the fact that they're no longer a guaranteed
to have a wife in the way that men in the past were.
According to a CBC report, men are bringing red pill ideas into
their marriages by demanding obedience and treating their
wives like subordinates. A Canadian family lawyer says
he's seeing a trend of men getting sucked into misogynistic
ideals and the marriage starts to unravel.
(17:31):
One woman said her husband became controlling after binging
this bullshit. She said it was like he forgot I
was his wife and started treating me like a servant.
So the clip we just watched was somebody talking about red
pillars and I really was trying to find clips where people
within the groups were talking. But it was it was actually
really hard because like I said,red pill has been a term that's
blocked on TikTok. So it's hard to find videos
(17:52):
where people are talking directly from their perspective.
So that was the best I could find.
And I ran into the same issue with incel.
So we'll talk more about that when we get there.
So we've got two more groups that make up the manosphere.
The next branch of the manosphere is Men Going Their
Own Way, and people call it MGTOW.
They kind of pronounce it by theacronym and men going their own
(18:14):
way is unique because these men are a little bit older, or at
least when this first, when thisfirst came about, the men were
older. These are men who have been
burned by divorce mostly. So they're frustrated with the
court systems. They're frustrated by having to
pay custody and they are opting out of the market.
They are dealing with having to pay these child payments, maybe
(18:36):
struggling with where they're going to live and the dating
market kind of shuts them out. They have a really hard time and
they give up. So within in this community, the
tone is very defeatist. People who just decided that
it's not worth trying anymore, you know, recently come to the
conclusion that I've tried at this relationship thing and I've
(18:57):
failed because if I was successful, I'd be married and
we wouldn't be talking having a different topic on on on the
podcast, right? Yeah.
So I come to the conclusion thatI can do bad by myself, meaning.
You can do. Bad by yourself?
Yeah, I can just hang out, go tolife by myself.
I'm at home, I don't have to hear any nonsense in my ears.
(19:18):
Yeah. I mean, the sense I get from
this is this very innovative thought that you have to be your
own person. Yeah, and and these guys have
tried to be their own person anddidn't work out.
Women are holding them back. Women are holding them back.
Women are always positioned as the enemy.
They're always positioned as withholding, they're always
positioned as manipulators or deceivers in some way.
(19:42):
So that's very that's very pretty much a commonality in all
of these groups. I would say on the extreme end
of the megtau branch, guys who have decided they're going to
opt out that they just don't even want to try anymore.
Those are where I placed in cells and in cells can be
defined as people who set their identity around the perceived
inability to forge romantic or sexual relationships.
(20:04):
These are people who just. I've opted out of the dating
market. They've given up.
They see their fate as sealed bybiology and social class.
So like a lot of these guys might be shorter.
Some of them have physical disabilities.
There's a disproportionate representation of autism,
anxiety and depression in these groups.
(20:24):
So there are men who are struggling and they feel like
they won't ever have the money or the looks or the muscles that
it'll take to attract women. So they have created groups
where they vilify women and talkabout how cruel women are for
never giving them the chance. They created this really rigid
language that defines different people.
(20:45):
Like Chad is somebody who is handsome and popular and
attractive to women. A Stacy is a woman that is
attractive. So the idea is they are very
bitter. They blame women for their lot
in life. And these spaces are spaces they
go to commiserate with other people who are facing the same
struggles that they are. Tell us a little bit about
(21:06):
Elliot Rodgers before we move on, because that's obviously a a
key figure in the incel movementthat people know about in the
media. Yeah, so Elliot Rodgers is
probably one of the most famous in Cells, and he is a British
American who actually shot 6 people and injured 14 in the
2014 Vista killings. He's kind of become the poster
(21:29):
boy for In Cells. But one of the reasons I wanted
to make this show is because theviolent sector of in cells is
not as big as sometimes the media makes it out to be.
Most of the violence that we seeon these forums is actually
about suicide and self harm. And we don't see a lot in terms
of lashing out. And even though this is a space
(21:50):
where people come and they say alot of misogynist things, a lot
of defamatory things, a lot of experts are actually guessing
that having these spaces may have a pacifying effect and that
it'll gives men an outlet to express these things and that
many times they're kind of venting.
And there are really rare instances that men are actually
acting on any of these rhetoric that they have.
(22:11):
Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about that because I know
we're not evolutionary psychologist, but I think what
you were uncovering about the feelings of isolation and
withdrawal, the inability to make connections or forge an
identity, and like the amount ofself hatred that exists in these
subcultures, the high rate of autism and anxiety and suicidal
(22:34):
ideation. I think those are all mental
health issues just to be aware of in terms of characterizing
and understanding this phenomenon.
But I also wanted to tie in a little bit about the violence
thing in terms of the Netflix show Adolescence.
Adolescence tells the story of a13 year old boy.
He's arrested for fatally stabbing one of his classmates,
(22:57):
his female classmates in episode3.
In particular with the psychiatric evaluation.
It's this very powerful show of misogynistic anger, and this
narrative unfolds through this interrogation.
The show was good because it opened a window into the world
of young boys, But I was curious, how accurate is it in
(23:18):
terms of the crime itself? Like how common is this kind of
knife incident or the infamous Elliot Rodger extremism?
Yeah. So I think whenever we're
looking at any group, there's always going to be a small
number of radicalized members. And I don't think it's fair to
define in cells by their most radicalized members.
Yes, there are people who have caused violence within these
(23:41):
spaces, but they're in the minority.
And like you said, these are people who are really suffering.
And one of the things that I think makes this whole
phenomenon unique is that peoplefeel really comfortable with
making fun of in cells. They've become the butt of many
jokes in a way that doesn't really align with how we see
mental health crisis these days.Like, there's a general attitude
(24:03):
that you shouldn't laugh or makefun of somebody who's struggling
with a mental health problem. But I think because of the
perceived demographics around this group, it gives people the
green light. So because people perceive in
cells as being white men, I think it gives them the green
light where it kind of makes it a little bit more blurry if
you're punching up or punching down in this instance.
And one of the things I think was really, really well done in
(24:25):
the show Adolescence is that it really exemplified the really,
really bitter anger that is a part of the discourse in these
communities. It's it's certainly represents
the most radical, but it's not an exaggeration.
It's something that I, I mean, Iwanted to do this episode today
because I was thinking specifically about how these
(24:46):
spaces are attracting young men and vulnerable men.
Yeah, so let's narrow in a little bit about boys in middle
school or high school where it seems like they're getting these
conflicting messages. They're watching all these
things about violence. And so they're still getting
some traditional messages about manhood, but then they're being
told in school now that girls need to be upfront.
(25:11):
They're seeing girls maybe outperform in school.
They're hearing about, you know,girl power.
Do they not understand why that is the case?
They don't have the benefit. Maybe Gen.
Alpha doesn't have the benefit of understanding what this is, a
response to decades and centuries of women's subjugation
and the repression of young girls.
(25:32):
So tell me a little bit more about how this is playing out in
young boys and middle school age.
So boys are in this really precarious position where
they're trying to walk multiple type roads, they're trying to
meet the cultural definition of masculinity, they're trying to
be sensitive, they're trying to step back to give girls more
space. And every kid wants to be
(25:55):
inspired. Every kid wants to be told to be
the most and the best that you can be.
But that's not the message that we're giving all the way around.
And of course, this is starting to impact men in that they are
seeking communities where their voices will be heard, where they
feel like they'll have more value.
One of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is because I
have a medical middle school student and I was talking to him
one day and he started to use some of the vernacular I
(26:17):
recognize from the manosphere, and I was really alarmed by it.
And I didn't really want to shuthim down or shun on him, so I
started asking him questions about why he was drawn to those
things. And he told me that he feels
that everything in the school isgeared towards the girls.
Everything is about lifting themup and focusing on them, and
they kind of feel shut out. And so without the benefit of
(26:39):
context that you get with age, they kind of feel like they're
being punished for the sins of the men of the past.
I work at a liberal school, and a lot of the education is
shifted at these days. You know, I tried to talk to
them about Thanksgiving, but they do not learn about
Thanksgiving the way that past generations have learned about
Thanksgiving. There's a big focus on
(26:59):
highlighting oppression, and that villainizes mostly white
men. So a lot of the boys who are
growing up in this environment kind of feel like they're paying
for the sins of the past and they're confused about where
they should fit. And I do feel sympathy for that.
I, I can't help but think of theissue of alienation and the
question of alienation. And being what I am, I, I went
(27:21):
back. I was going back and thinking of
Karl Marx, right? Because he wrote quite a bit on
alienation and some of it related to labor, but also a lot
of it related to a sense of estrangement from your own human
nature, your fellow human beings.
And his point was that this is not a personal failing, but a
(27:42):
direct consequence of the economic structure of the
society. And I think you can see it
playing out certainly in economics, but also in the
outgrowth of that in the conditions of these young men
feeling like they have no connection to the society.
So you talked about how in schools and and other
(28:05):
environments you get this push about promoting young women.
And I, I just feel like one of the things we have to bear in
mind and, and emphasizes, I don't think the society can
answer the needs of either women's oppression or the
conditions of alienation. So when you talk about when
these schools, and I'm not, I don't mean to belittle the
(28:28):
intentions of teachers or anything like that, but I'm
talking about the structure itself, the superstructure.
When these schools talk about opening doors for young women,
they're just dealing in the, in the realm of tokenism.
They're just dealing in the realm of ideas and words without
actually a challenging the material basis and the material
foundations of women's oppression.
You see it in the corporate sphere to where you have similar
(28:51):
language and it gets expressed there through quote UN quote
efforts of diversity. And I know diversity is under a
lot of attack right now, but it's not it's being attacked
from the right. The problem with that, with this
stuff about diversity is that itreally does nothing about
integration. It really does nothing about
actually talking about the the material of reason women's are
women are oppressed instead of it's just if you have we can
(29:14):
have in our company a few black faces and a few women in high
places. We've achieved diversity and we
can move on. And it's all cynical.
It all does nothing for the vastmajority of human beings, and
it's bound to have these repercussions that just
reinforce the alienation that that many people feel in a
(29:36):
society where just making, you know, you're supposed to be the
again, just to reiterate, you'resupposed to be the breadwinner
and everything and you can barely make ends meet.
Yeah, and you're, you're totallyright.
So many of these problems are really, really big and
multifaceted and results of capitalist economics and they're
kind of like, we can't really domuch on an individual level.
(29:59):
But I think one of the things wecan do is talk about how we
educate young boys in these spaces.
And if you look at education as like very young people,
kindergarten, first grade, and we look at the kind of content
that are consuming, boys get Legos, they get trucks, they get
building, they get action. Their shows and their books are
(30:20):
all about fighting or adventure.And little girls get books that
are about friendship and that are about sharing and that are
about kindness. So the way that we're educating
our boys and our girls sets themup for social success or social
failure. And we're finding that boys are
feeling more alienation than girls.
And you can't help but to look at the social education that
girls have, the amount of time that girls spend socializing in
(30:43):
comparison to boys and see that of course those things are going
to make a difference. And if we go back to in cells,
one of the really interesting things, if we look at in cell
forums, those forums are offering the kind of intimacy
that men are craving. They're able to be vulnerable
there. They're able to speak truthfully
with people who understand them.So it's kind of interesting to
see that these men have opted out of the dating market because
(31:06):
it's so unfulfilling. And it's really easy to see why
other these other spaces would they would appeal to them
because within the in cell space, they're getting
fraternity, they're getting a victimhood identity that allows
them to externalize their problem.
They get a common enemy in the Chads and in the Stacy's.
They get a rich lexicon that gives them an in Group identity.
And they get to most of all avoid the discomfort of having
(31:28):
to participate in the market, inthe dating market, and instead
trade that for the camaraderie and friendships that they have
online. But I want to just make a point.
The followers or the people get pulled into this for maybe those
reasons or that need of, of alienation.
You're not talking about the Andrew Tate's and the grifters
and the people who are leading the men's rights movement who
(31:51):
view women as mere property at the main purpose of a wife is to
be completely under control and subservient as a slave to her
husband. So I just want to make that
distinction because even though we are digging a little bit
deeper and looking into the psychology and the social
elements that have created this,it's not an alibi in any way or
(32:15):
a softening of our stance against these despicable leaders
of this movement whose main goalis to push traditional religious
conservative ideology on women. Because to them, any notion of
women's freedom or independence is something to loathe.
(32:38):
Yeah, it's definitely a threat. And like you said, these people
are essentially grifters. They saw that there was a gap in
the market. They saw that there's an
appetite for this type of rhetoric.
So people jump in to fill those voids and it's an opportunity
for them to make money to gain popularity.
I think right now, I think there's a lot of factors
involved we're looking at like the cause causality dilemma,
(32:58):
right? So like what comes first, the
chicken or the egg? A lot of people say that online
misogyny is creating this behavior and subculture, right?
I don't agree with that. I don't agree like the Internet
is the evil person in this. I think that the social,
economic and political conditions in the society around
gender roles and changing norms and the economy, as Ezra was
(33:19):
saying, kind of created this world, right?
And I just want to speak a little bit about the Me Too
backlash because, you know, you mentioned Me Too and this was
going on around the same time asand we as we started to see and
sell culture kind of emerge around 2017.
And so I think we can all agree me too movement had a lot of
(33:42):
flaws, right? As a goal, holding abuse of
predators accountable and bringing attention to the
casting couch that was felt likethis cathartic response to
sexual inequality. Did it resolve sexual
inequality? Absolutely not, there was a
massive disappearance of the most pervasive crimes carried
(34:03):
out against poor and working class women.
Right. Mostly bourgeois women, as
feminism is, were presented as the victims.
Then you have the conflation of things like verbal harassment or
inappropriate behavior that was put into the exact same category
as violent crimes and abuse. Right, so lumping everything
into rape. There were more people at the
(34:24):
end of the Me Too movement that saw this as a kind of classic
puritanical witch hunt, right? Where a lot of people, a lot of
men were getting cancelled by mere accusation without any
evidence. And it increasingly became this
trial by media believe all women, no matter what.
So despite all those flaws, or maybe because of those flaws,
(34:46):
let's put the manosphere in thatframework, right?
There's also been over the last few years, a much more prevalent
focus on trans rights. There's been more trans
visibility. I think that you can say that
these movements have been imperfect, but that just the
premise of them fighting for some sort of equality or equal
(35:10):
footing, though they never get there, had a radicalizing effect
on men. And they're the leaders of the
men's rights movement where theycould capitalize on this and say
we are being punished for something we didn't do.
Very, very much so. So I think the big take away
from the Me Too movement for most people was believe women.
(35:32):
Believe women without question. And of course, that puts men in
a really awkward position. And men who are in this space
where their voices are being devalued started seeking other
places to find that value. So they sought out the
manosphere. And like, we're talking about
the chicken and the egg. I don't think the manosphere
would be as big as as it is if it wasn't an appetite for it.
(35:53):
This is a response to social. This is a psychological response
to changes in the culture for sure.
I agree with that completely there.
There would be nothing for a manosphere if there wasn't a
basis for it that would draw people to it.
And I think, yeah, believe all women.
One, yes, it does put men in a bad situation.
(36:14):
It also infantilizes women as though they're like not fully
human beings who are capable of lying and deception like any
other human being is capable of doing.
Having said all that, and havingearlier talked about alienation
and all these things, I make a distinction in my mind.
I can talk. I can consider the question of
alienation and its impact as a societal question.
(36:38):
And just like I can look at whatdrives someone towards the arm
of a racist demagogue as a societal question being
conditioned by his or her terrible economic situation.
That does not mean I'm going to sympathize with this person and
(36:58):
what they think. I, I, I want to answer the
societal question because I think this, I think answering
that is vital for the, the society as a whole, including
for those people. But I'm not going to suddenly
go, oh, poor person. He feels women have basically
(37:18):
destroyed his life because they haven't he he's made that person
has made-up a reality in their head to explain their conditions
as opposed to looking at what the real source of their
condition is. Like you said, I I do want to
emphasize that class is a really, really big part of this.
(37:39):
And like in the social conditions are a part of it too.
People are not making living wages.
So that's a big part of why these men feel they can't find
mates too. So definitely economics are part
of it. Yeah.
And I think it's just important,even if we don't have all the
answers or, you know, just the three of us to really, I think
it's important to look at it outside of the way that the
(38:01):
media portrays it because inevitably it's going to be very
shallow. You know?
And this was kind of the theme of adolescence, too, right?
Like, how horrible it is it to have these boys going onto their
phones and they can slip into this world.
And yes, that is a risk, right? Like if you are feeling a
certain way and you find an outlet, it will amplify.
(38:22):
It will amplify the voice that you want to find and the
connection that you want to find.
But social media in and of itself, I would argue, is not
what we're talking about. It's much bigger societal and
economic forces that are not going to be dealt with
fundamentally until you actuallylook at where gender is going,
where norms are going, how the family is changing in society.
(38:46):
Yeah, I think you bring up a lotof interesting points.
I think the reason that we see this space having so much fuel
right now is because there's so much change in our society in
terms of gender, in terms of women entering the workforce in
greater numbers and with greaterstrength.
And each one of these spaces really represents a different
response to those changes. The pickup artists and the alpha
(39:07):
males take a self improvement position.
They're going to be that top guy.
The trad people embrace it. The men's right and red pill
people are looking for politicalways to legislate and rollback
gains of the women's movement and big thousand in cells.
I have opted out. So you can see that this is a
response to changing shifts in our culture and yeah, just a lot
(39:31):
of more of bigger, bigger group of people feeling
disenfranchised and marginalized.
But also that there's a political administration that's
more amenable to those ideas, topromoting them openly and
explicitly, right? Like overtly as opposed to.
We know that. Misogynist ideals?
Yeah. Yeah, we know.
What party? Yeah, but I'm saying like the
(39:52):
the Trump administration, like it's not an I'm not saying
everything has to do with Trump.That's not our position ever on
this podcast, right? Like that Trump is to blame for
a societal ills, but Trump is a reflection of society, but he's
also giving access in a way and reinforcement of these ideas
(40:15):
because they're OK. That's actually, yeah, you're
you're OK if you think this way.And, you know, we're going to
change the laws to make sure that they reflect that ideology
because the left has gone too far.
I think it's almost not an accident that this movement
really comes viral around 20/15/2016, which is Trump one
(40:38):
point O And if we look at it today, if I were to come up with
an analogy, it would be so thesemen are facing real, you know,
difficulties and they blame women for it and say women are
the cost for for their conditionand how society has sort of in
their view, promoted women is the cause for their for their
(41:01):
condition. And I see an analogy with that
and people who are facing also very difficult situations and
say undocumented immigrants are the cause of my condition.
Undocumented immigrants taken myjobs and documented immigrants
have booted me out of my livelihood.
And in both of these cases, whatI see is someone that one I can
(41:25):
see an explanation for, for why they think the way they do in
sort of the breakdown of the economic structure of of
America, of capitalist America. But also their target is someone
who's beneath them. Actually.
They're punching down, not punching up.
And at the end of the day, whileI want to understand where
(41:46):
they're coming from and change the conditions that drive people
into these situations, my level of sympathy for them is pretty
minimal. Yeah, So I can see why you don't
have a lot of sympathy for thesemen.
And I think most of them don't deserve sympathy.
But I feel like I see each GroupA little differently.
When I think about the alpha males, I feel like, yeah, these
(42:08):
guys definitely don't deserve sympathy.
But when I think about some of the members of the incel group
who are young boys who are just figuring out their way, who are
dealing with social pressures that are confusing, who may be
economically disadvantaged. And I and I do feel some sense
of sympathy for them as they're going through this.
I remember being in middle school myself and, and you know,
it's a, it's a time where you'rereally vulnerable.
(42:30):
You're trying to figure out whatyour identity is.
You're trying to figure out how you to interact with the sex
that you're attracted to. And this rhetoric just kind of
preys on that insecurity and leads people in the wrong
direction. Yes, I can sympathize with a
child. Of course, what I find very hard
to sympathize with is once you've solidified an ideology
that says women are the enemy and women are the cause of my
(42:53):
problems, I may understand what societal framework that pushed
you in that direction. But once you've solidified that
ideology, the image that conjures in my mind is the kind
of person who cheers on the current deportations of
undocumented or documented immigrants because they've now
(43:14):
designated them the enemy. And do with them as you will.
Yeah, it's a it's a toxic ideology that is falsely
scapegoated women for sure. So yeah, there's not much
sympathy you can feel for that, for for grown men for sure.
I actually wouldn't mind taking a blue pill these days.
Yeah, I think we all can use a blue pill.
(43:42):
But we don't love anybody who doesn't love us.
Thanks for listening to Unwashedand Unruly, where we provide
true context, perfect tangents, and flawed debates.
Please join us for all our episodes.
Send us your questions, praise and complaints to
unwashedunruly@gmail.com.
It's time for you and me to stand up for ourselves.
Welcome to Unwashed and Unruly, From the great unwashed to the
gloriously unruly. Today we'll be entering the deep
underworld of the manosphere, exploring involuntary celibates
who describe themselves as in cells, hyper masculinity and the
sexual hierarchy. Bring your chest hair and some
(00:31):
roids. I'm your host Lola Michaels with
Doctor Deep Cut Ezra Saeed. Hi, everybody.
And pop culture decoder Cam cruise.
What up, homies? You can reach us at
unwashedunruly@gmail.com. What's responsible for the
growth of online male supremacy?Is today's in cell subculture
that different from historical manifestations of misogyny?
(00:55):
In the depths of the manosphere there are red pills and black
pills. There's victimhood and suicide,
anti woman content and real world aggression.
It's a phenomenon that's cultural, economic,
psychological, and of course, political.
Some say this is simply another resurgence of traditional
masculinity. Others say it's a specific
(01:15):
rollback to the gains of women'sindependence.
OR even a backlash to me too. So let's first define some of
these terms. They're probably a lot of broad
conceptions of what the manosphere is about, who the key
players are. One thing we can say is that
these are people forming A distinct identity around what
they view as an inability to have sexual and romantic
(01:36):
relationships. So what is the manosphere?
What does incel mean? What are the bullet points of
the core beliefs of these groups?
Cam. Crack open the cold one, boys.
Jump on your hot rods because we're riding into the manosphere
real hot baby Woo. Thank you for that very feminine
intro, Lola, that was beautiful.Thank you.
(01:59):
So yeah, like you said, I'm going to take us around the
manosphere today. We're going to talk about some
of the groups that make up the manosphere and some of the
social conditions that created this manosphere.
The manosphere is made-up of a lot of different groups, but the
all of the groups have certain things in common.
So one of the things that they have in common is they are all
misogynist. Yes, they all really don't like
(02:20):
women. They see women as deceptive or
inferior. Another trait of all of these
groups is male victimhood. They believe that men are the
true oppressed class and that modern culture has sidelined
men. They believe in a hyper
masculine picture, a really, really kind of traditional old
school picture of what it means to be a man, what masculinity
(02:40):
looks like. They all have social
hierarchies, they talk a lot about values.
They all have this internal lexicon that kind of pigeonholes
different peoples and puts them into a hierarchical schema.
They're all anti feminist. They all blame the feminist
movements for having led to social decline and to male
dissatisfaction. And there's also a trend of
(03:02):
loneliness and frustration that we'll see in all of these
groups. And lastly, these are all echo
chambers. These are not the kind of forums
that you go to to kind of have debates or discuss different
ideas. Everybody's here just kind of on
the same trend and kind of dumping on women and all on the
same page together. So yeah, this is a place people
go to feel validated and to havetheir ideas kind of propped up.
(03:25):
So first, when you talk about this is where people go, where
are they going? So these are online spaces and
actually some of them are more accessible than others.
So if you want to find about grind and hustle culture in the
alpha male manosphere, that's really accessible.
But if you're looking for red pill content or in cell
contents, these are actually terms that have been banned on
(03:48):
Instagram and on Tiktok. So if you look for forums that
are for in cells, they're actually very hard to find.
So let's talk a little bit aboutwhat people who identify as part
of this manosphere look like. I can kind of assume that some
of the stereotypes, at least when I think of an in cell in
particular as white, young, heterosexual, conservative.
(04:11):
The first time I heard about male rights, I think, and in
cells at least, was during Trump, one point O, when I was
learning about the Proud Boys. So the media connection that I
made was with these MAGA types, but I know that people who are
attracted to the manosphere kindof run the gamut in terms of
race and sexuality and age. So even if you don't have the
(04:33):
exact demographic data, can you tell us a little bit more about
what these people look like who are attracted to this online
subculture? A really big common
misconception is that the majority of people involved in
the manosphere are white, that they're young.
But what did we actually see when we look at the data is
there's a really broad, diverse range of men.
(04:55):
And if you look at each facet ofthe manosphere, each of those
facets represents a different reaction to the changing
political climate and to the gains made by women.
So if I can take you guys on a journey through these groups,
I'm going to start first with the pickup artist.
And pickup artist became popularin the early 2000s.
(05:16):
There is a book about it called The Game, and in this book he
follows around a pickup artist. And the pickup artist are kind
of like the mathematicians of the dating world.
Their whole thing is they want to try to create specific
formulas that men can use to attract and seduce women.
Most of those formulas are not like I'm going to be charming
(05:37):
and kind to attract a woman or I'm going to be sensitive and
intelligent. They're mostly praying on
insecurities and they're manipulative.
One of the most popular tactics that they use is a tactic called
nagging. And nagging is about giving
underhanded compliments that kind of try to throw off the
person you're giving the commentto.
So like, I might look at Ezra's shirt and say, like, oh, that's
(05:59):
a really cool shirt. My niece has the same shirt.
So it's like, I'm saying it's a nice shirt.
But at the same time, now Ezra is like, wait, if your niece has
it, like, is that not so cool? So it's kind of creating a
dynamic where I have like a stepabove and I'm trying to get you
to try to earn my approval. So that's the idea behind
nagging. Pickup artists are men who go
(06:21):
into spaces and try to manipulate women into sexual
encounters. And this is not about creating
lasting relationships. This is like basically about
numbers getting in there, getting as many women as you
can. And the men who are in this
group, the demographic is actually middle class to upper
middle class. And it makes sense because it's
kind of a nerdy approach to getting women.
(06:41):
Like I'm going to study to get women.
I've discovered that the hottestgirl, instead of approaching her
group directly, if I were to approach an adjacent set, build
social proof and draw the hot set in, I would get the girl
from the second set. She would feel much more
(07:02):
comfortable with me because I'm with friends.
I'm a safe bet I'm pre selected by having women with me already
and therefore I'm considered attractive to the second set.
Even as gross as that is, they're probably among the least
repulsive and dangerous within the manosphere.
I don't know, it sounded like itwas getting ready to go out for
(07:24):
a hunt. Exactly.
And like that's the idea is it'slike if you say the right thing,
if you present yourself the right way, then you'll be able
to attract a mate. So they have more of a self help
approach as a response to the gains of feminism and to the
changing culture. Their ideas like to be that top
guy that girls want to be with. And so those are kind of the
(07:44):
predecessors for the new kind ofpickup artist we have who are
the alpha male influencers, the grind set, hustle culture guys.
So those guys have taken what the pickup artist have done and
taken it to the next level. And they are kind of like the
Cavemen of the of the manosphere.
They have a very silverback approach.
There are guys that hit the gym really hard they're guys who
(08:08):
like are all about having a lot of muscles and having a lot of
money of people who are in the alpha male influencer space talk
a lot about like Bitcoin and getrich quick scheme.
So it's all about like raising your status to be a high value
male so that women will want you.
You don't chase women, women chase you.
A lot of them will talk about being in one way open
(08:30):
relationships. So relationships where they're
having five or six or seven different girlfriends and
they're allowed to sleep with asmany women as they want, as high
value males and women just have to have the gratitude for having
their attention. There's another clip I sent you
guys from a guy named Dan Blazarian.
And yeah, he talks kind of more about that aspect of the alpha
(08:52):
male manosphere. Dating 5 girls I think is harder
than dating like 50 or 100 when you date.
Four or five. Girls, they require more,
they're actually more jealous and they're all kind of like
competing for that main girl role when you're dating like 50
or 100 girls because you're justhappy for the time.
And they're also so interchangeable that they 'cause
you no stress, you don't care. It's not even an idea that they
(09:14):
might be exclusive to dating you.
But when it goes down to like 4 and it becomes more of like a
possible reality, then all of a sudden like the claws come out.
I see. I'm sorry, but as the honorary
male in this group, I have to ask, are we supposed to believe
this guy's dating 50 to 100 girls?
Well, that's part of his brand and the the like, the visual
(09:37):
aesthetic is a really, really big part of all these alpha male
spaces because unlike the in cell forums that exist on Reddit
where everything is kind of it written, all of these alpha male
influences are big on Instagram and on TikTok and so many of
their videos. They're just like all these like
half naked hot girls around. So they they really try to
(09:58):
convey this image of themselves as having this harem of women
falling at their feet. Who are all interchangeable.
Who are all interchangeable. And Dan Bilzerian, like you'll
see he has a neck that's as thick as my thigh.
He's like a really big manly man.
And he has like a really heavy jaw.
And one of the weirdest things about the manosphere is there's
so much focus on jaw lines, man.There's something called jaw
(10:20):
maxing that's becoming more popular within the alpha male
set. And that is like they have these
kind of rubbery blocks that you put into the back of your mouth
and you chew it and you chew it and you chew it until your jaw
becomes really, really big. Big because having a a head of
like defined jawline is one of the most important parts of
being a man, apparently in thesespaces.
(10:41):
I should try it. I have a really defined jawline.
Dude, I, I have to show you somepictures who of people who have
jaw maxed and it looks like crazy because like they just
have like these bulging kind of jowls.
It's, it's, it's, it's really funny.
OK, up next we have trad, which I believe would be for trad
wives. Trad stands for traditional, and
the people who are in this spaces are mostly here for
(11:02):
religious connections. The biggest group is Christians.
And unlike all these other groups that are made of men,
this is the one group that's comprised mostly of women.
And these are Christian women who have very traditional
values. They believe a man should be the
provider and that it is a woman's job to take care of the
household. And a lot of them are giving
Miss Maisel, you know, they're the kind of women you come home
(11:24):
from work, they've got a full face of makeup on, kids are
taking care of food on the table.
So they're really trying to achieve the kind of fantasy of
the 1950s housewife. A lot of them are anti feminist
and talk about how the feminist movement is destroying the
American family. Some of them are not.
Some of them talk about how theywant to have the choice to be a
(11:45):
homemaker. And that's like fine if other
people don't make that choice. But generally it's there's like
a baked in idea that feminism isdestroying the family.
Can I just? Think about how so many of us
since we were little, we were raised in this kind of boss babe
feminist society that told us you can be so much more than
just a mom. You can be so much more than
(12:05):
just a wife. And so many of us listened and
we, you know, tried to climb corporate ladders and we boss
babed so hard now, like we're, we're a little bit boss babed
out. And some of us want to go a
little bit more back to our roots, to our ancestors, to the
women who came before us and live a little bit more, you
know, like they did call us crazy, but we like babies.
We want to have baby. I am getting big time Stepford
(12:29):
wife vibes. And that's definitely a part of
the aesthetic. This is one of those places that
they call an aesthetic space because a lot of it is like,
watch me go play blueberries from my backyard and make a pie.
Like a lot of these are rural girlies, farm girlies.
Like I'm going to milk the cows and then make yogurt for my
babies, Like that kind of thing.Well, that that actually answers
(12:49):
one of the questions I was goingto have because I was when she
said this is the oldest way women lived, I was thinking,
well what is she going to go gathering while her hubby goes
hunting? It kind of sounds like they
wouldn't mind, honestly, from the way they talk about things.
Also, they're really big on Bible verses that are about
serving your husband or your husband is always right, you
(13:10):
know? So yeah, that's trad wives.
It's kind of a religious space, and you can see how this works
for Christianity. Christianity is definitely the
biggest representative, but a lot of religions have this kind
of conservative, fundamentalist,fundamentalist bends.
So the next group we're going tofocus on is the men's rights
activists. And these people take more of
like an activist political kind of approach and they kind of
(13:33):
want to roll black legislation. Some of the things that they'll
talk about are male suicide rates.
They'll talk about how family courts favor women.
So they're more focused on systemic things and like kind of
trying to bring up statistics that show men are in crisis.
And like I said, some of those are kind of reasonable
arguments, like there is really high suicide rates for men.
(13:53):
But then there's like people allthe way on the other end of the
spectrum who are just anti feminist and just want any law
that was made to protect women or empower women to be taken
away that you need to protect and provide at any cost.
But we've changed everything where it concerns women.
They now have access to everything men have always had
(14:15):
access to, to education, to work, to whatever they want to
do. But they're not the ones driving
the semis, and they're not the ones in the coal mines.
You don't hear the National Organization for Women
complaining that there is just not enough female ditch figures.
(14:36):
It is still men carrying the lion's share for what it.
Takes to to operate and maintainthe society.
And it is still the expectation that if somebody's going to go
down with the shift, it's going to be meant.
Oh God. There's so many problems with
that. Yeah, and they also have a
really big problem with this phrase.
Women and children first. They're always talking about how
(14:56):
it's so fucked up. They're like, our lives mean
nothing. I'm sorry.
What are we going to say, Ezra? I was just going to say that
when when you talk about, as youmentioned earlier, the high
suicide rates and all that, it, I would argue that it coincides
with the economy and the social and cultural outlook promoted by
(15:19):
these types, that men are supposed to be the sole
providers, the main providers. And the reality is modern
American capitalism isn't going to allow that.
And so, yeah, it creates a sort of internal crisis, the
combination of the function of modern American capitalism and
(15:39):
these people's ideologies combined together.
Yeah, and that's why I was saying some of the gripes are
real, legitimate gripes. But the approach is very anti
woman. And you can hear from the video,
there's this underlying idea that men are doing the real
work. Men are the ones who are really
holding things together and women are just kind of playing
school when they go to college. What is this next one?
The red pill. So red pill is actually kind of
(16:03):
more of a broad term that can beused to describe a lot of these
groups. The term red pill is a Matrix
reference. And in the movie The Matrix, Neo
takes this pill and it allows him to see the world as it
really is. And that's what the red pillars
are saying, that once you realize that, you're going to
have an awakening that men are the true oppressed class and
that feminism is destroying America.
(16:24):
So where these are kind of the more extreme versions of the
men's rights movement, the men'srights movement draws on a lot
of statistics, whereas the red pillars draw on a lot of
pseudosciences. There's a lot more misogyny.
And there's also some overlap with the alpha males in that
they feel like their role as menis to dominate women and to
provide. And there's a sense of aggrieved
(16:47):
entitlement here. Aggrieved entitlement is a term
that's used to express that men felt like women were old to
them. They talk a lot about how like
in past generations, their grandfather's generation, he
would get a wife no problem. And like, of course that was
because women physically could not live without the support of
a man. But they feel aggrieved by this
(17:09):
change and by the fact that they're no longer a guaranteed
to have a wife in the way that men in the past were.
According to a CBC report, men are bringing red pill ideas into
their marriages by demanding obedience and treating their
wives like subordinates. A Canadian family lawyer says
he's seeing a trend of men getting sucked into misogynistic
ideals and the marriage starts to unravel.
(17:31):
One woman said her husband became controlling after binging
this bullshit. She said it was like he forgot I
was his wife and started treating me like a servant.
So the clip we just watched was somebody talking about red
pillars and I really was trying to find clips where people
within the groups were talking. But it was it was actually
really hard because like I said,red pill has been a term that's
blocked on TikTok. So it's hard to find videos
(17:52):
where people are talking directly from their perspective.
So that was the best I could find.
And I ran into the same issue with incel.
So we'll talk more about that when we get there.
So we've got two more groups that make up the manosphere.
The next branch of the manosphere is Men Going Their
Own Way, and people call it MGTOW.
They kind of pronounce it by theacronym and men going their own
(18:14):
way is unique because these men are a little bit older, or at
least when this first, when thisfirst came about, the men were
older. These are men who have been
burned by divorce mostly. So they're frustrated with the
court systems. They're frustrated by having to
pay custody and they are opting out of the market.
They are dealing with having to pay these child payments, maybe
(18:36):
struggling with where they're going to live and the dating
market kind of shuts them out. They have a really hard time and
they give up. So within in this community, the
tone is very defeatist. People who just decided that
it's not worth trying anymore, you know, recently come to the
conclusion that I've tried at this relationship thing and I've
(18:57):
failed because if I was successful, I'd be married and
we wouldn't be talking having a different topic on on on the
podcast, right? Yeah.
So I come to the conclusion thatI can do bad by myself, meaning.
You can do. Bad by yourself?
Yeah, I can just hang out, go tolife by myself.
I'm at home, I don't have to hear any nonsense in my ears.
(19:18):
Yeah. I mean, the sense I get from
this is this very innovative thought that you have to be your
own person. Yeah, and and these guys have
tried to be their own person anddidn't work out.
Women are holding them back. Women are holding them back.
Women are always positioned as the enemy.
They're always positioned as withholding, they're always
positioned as manipulators or deceivers in some way.
(19:42):
So that's very that's very pretty much a commonality in all
of these groups. I would say on the extreme end
of the megtau branch, guys who have decided they're going to
opt out that they just don't even want to try anymore.
Those are where I placed in cells and in cells can be
defined as people who set their identity around the perceived
inability to forge romantic or sexual relationships.
(20:04):
These are people who just. I've opted out of the dating
market. They've given up.
They see their fate as sealed bybiology and social class.
So like a lot of these guys might be shorter.
Some of them have physical disabilities.
There's a disproportionate representation of autism,
anxiety and depression in these groups.
(20:24):
So there are men who are struggling and they feel like
they won't ever have the money or the looks or the muscles that
it'll take to attract women. So they have created groups
where they vilify women and talkabout how cruel women are for
never giving them the chance. They created this really rigid
language that defines different people.
(20:45):
Like Chad is somebody who is handsome and popular and
attractive to women. A Stacy is a woman that is
attractive. So the idea is they are very
bitter. They blame women for their lot
in life. And these spaces are spaces they
go to commiserate with other people who are facing the same
struggles that they are. Tell us a little bit about
(21:06):
Elliot Rodgers before we move on, because that's obviously a a
key figure in the incel movementthat people know about in the
media. Yeah, so Elliot Rodgers is
probably one of the most famous in Cells, and he is a British
American who actually shot 6 people and injured 14 in the
2014 Vista killings. He's kind of become the poster
(21:29):
boy for In Cells. But one of the reasons I wanted
to make this show is because theviolent sector of in cells is
not as big as sometimes the media makes it out to be.
Most of the violence that we seeon these forums is actually
about suicide and self harm. And we don't see a lot in terms
of lashing out. And even though this is a space
(21:50):
where people come and they say alot of misogynist things, a lot
of defamatory things, a lot of experts are actually guessing
that having these spaces may have a pacifying effect and that
it'll gives men an outlet to express these things and that
many times they're kind of venting.
And there are really rare instances that men are actually
acting on any of these rhetoric that they have.
(22:11):
Yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about that because I know
we're not evolutionary psychologist, but I think what
you were uncovering about the feelings of isolation and
withdrawal, the inability to make connections or forge an
identity, and like the amount ofself hatred that exists in these
subcultures, the high rate of autism and anxiety and suicidal
(22:34):
ideation. I think those are all mental
health issues just to be aware of in terms of characterizing
and understanding this phenomenon.
But I also wanted to tie in a little bit about the violence
thing in terms of the Netflix show Adolescence.
Adolescence tells the story of a13 year old boy.
He's arrested for fatally stabbing one of his classmates,
(22:57):
his female classmates in episode3.
In particular with the psychiatric evaluation.
It's this very powerful show of misogynistic anger, and this
narrative unfolds through this interrogation.
The show was good because it opened a window into the world
of young boys, But I was curious, how accurate is it in
(23:18):
terms of the crime itself? Like how common is this kind of
knife incident or the infamous Elliot Rodger extremism?
Yeah. So I think whenever we're
looking at any group, there's always going to be a small
number of radicalized members. And I don't think it's fair to
define in cells by their most radicalized members.
Yes, there are people who have caused violence within these
(23:41):
spaces, but they're in the minority.
And like you said, these are people who are really suffering.
And one of the things that I think makes this whole
phenomenon unique is that peoplefeel really comfortable with
making fun of in cells. They've become the butt of many
jokes in a way that doesn't really align with how we see
mental health crisis these days.Like, there's a general attitude
(24:03):
that you shouldn't laugh or makefun of somebody who's struggling
with a mental health problem. But I think because of the
perceived demographics around this group, it gives people the
green light. So because people perceive in
cells as being white men, I think it gives them the green
light where it kind of makes it a little bit more blurry if
you're punching up or punching down in this instance.
And one of the things I think was really, really well done in
(24:25):
the show Adolescence is that it really exemplified the really,
really bitter anger that is a part of the discourse in these
communities. It's it's certainly represents
the most radical, but it's not an exaggeration.
It's something that I, I mean, Iwanted to do this episode today
because I was thinking specifically about how these
(24:46):
spaces are attracting young men and vulnerable men.
Yeah, so let's narrow in a little bit about boys in middle
school or high school where it seems like they're getting these
conflicting messages. They're watching all these
things about violence. And so they're still getting
some traditional messages about manhood, but then they're being
told in school now that girls need to be upfront.
(25:11):
They're seeing girls maybe outperform in school.
They're hearing about, you know,girl power.
Do they not understand why that is the case?
They don't have the benefit. Maybe Gen.
Alpha doesn't have the benefit of understanding what this is, a
response to decades and centuries of women's subjugation
and the repression of young girls.
(25:32):
So tell me a little bit more about how this is playing out in
young boys and middle school age.
So boys are in this really precarious position where
they're trying to walk multiple type roads, they're trying to
meet the cultural definition of masculinity, they're trying to
be sensitive, they're trying to step back to give girls more
space. And every kid wants to be
(25:55):
inspired. Every kid wants to be told to be
the most and the best that you can be.
But that's not the message that we're giving all the way around.
And of course, this is starting to impact men in that they are
seeking communities where their voices will be heard, where they
feel like they'll have more value.
One of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is because I
have a medical middle school student and I was talking to him
one day and he started to use some of the vernacular I
(26:17):
recognize from the manosphere, and I was really alarmed by it.
And I didn't really want to shuthim down or shun on him, so I
started asking him questions about why he was drawn to those
things. And he told me that he feels
that everything in the school isgeared towards the girls.
Everything is about lifting themup and focusing on them, and
they kind of feel shut out. And so without the benefit of
(26:39):
context that you get with age, they kind of feel like they're
being punished for the sins of the men of the past.
I work at a liberal school, and a lot of the education is
shifted at these days. You know, I tried to talk to
them about Thanksgiving, but they do not learn about
Thanksgiving the way that past generations have learned about
Thanksgiving. There's a big focus on
(26:59):
highlighting oppression, and that villainizes mostly white
men. So a lot of the boys who are
growing up in this environment kind of feel like they're paying
for the sins of the past and they're confused about where
they should fit. And I do feel sympathy for that.
I, I can't help but think of theissue of alienation and the
question of alienation. And being what I am, I, I went
(27:21):
back. I was going back and thinking of
Karl Marx, right? Because he wrote quite a bit on
alienation and some of it related to labor, but also a lot
of it related to a sense of estrangement from your own human
nature, your fellow human beings.
And his point was that this is not a personal failing, but a
(27:42):
direct consequence of the economic structure of the
society. And I think you can see it
playing out certainly in economics, but also in the
outgrowth of that in the conditions of these young men
feeling like they have no connection to the society.
So you talked about how in schools and and other
(28:05):
environments you get this push about promoting young women.
And I, I just feel like one of the things we have to bear in
mind and, and emphasizes, I don't think the society can
answer the needs of either women's oppression or the
conditions of alienation. So when you talk about when
these schools, and I'm not, I don't mean to belittle the
(28:28):
intentions of teachers or anything like that, but I'm
talking about the structure itself, the superstructure.
When these schools talk about opening doors for young women,
they're just dealing in the, in the realm of tokenism.
They're just dealing in the realm of ideas and words without
actually a challenging the material basis and the material
foundations of women's oppression.
You see it in the corporate sphere to where you have similar
(28:51):
language and it gets expressed there through quote UN quote
efforts of diversity. And I know diversity is under a
lot of attack right now, but it's not it's being attacked
from the right. The problem with that, with this
stuff about diversity is that itreally does nothing about
integration. It really does nothing about
actually talking about the the material of reason women's are
women are oppressed instead of it's just if you have we can
(29:14):
have in our company a few black faces and a few women in high
places. We've achieved diversity and we
can move on. And it's all cynical.
It all does nothing for the vastmajority of human beings, and
it's bound to have these repercussions that just
reinforce the alienation that that many people feel in a
(29:36):
society where just making, you know, you're supposed to be the
again, just to reiterate, you'resupposed to be the breadwinner
and everything and you can barely make ends meet.
Yeah, and you're, you're totallyright.
So many of these problems are really, really big and
multifaceted and results of capitalist economics and they're
kind of like, we can't really domuch on an individual level.
(29:59):
But I think one of the things wecan do is talk about how we
educate young boys in these spaces.
And if you look at education as like very young people,
kindergarten, first grade, and we look at the kind of content
that are consuming, boys get Legos, they get trucks, they get
building, they get action. Their shows and their books are
(30:20):
all about fighting or adventure.And little girls get books that
are about friendship and that are about sharing and that are
about kindness. So the way that we're educating
our boys and our girls sets themup for social success or social
failure. And we're finding that boys are
feeling more alienation than girls.
And you can't help but to look at the social education that
girls have, the amount of time that girls spend socializing in
(30:43):
comparison to boys and see that of course those things are going
to make a difference. And if we go back to in cells,
one of the really interesting things, if we look at in cell
forums, those forums are offering the kind of intimacy
that men are craving. They're able to be vulnerable
there. They're able to speak truthfully
with people who understand them.So it's kind of interesting to
see that these men have opted out of the dating market because
(31:06):
it's so unfulfilling. And it's really easy to see why
other these other spaces would they would appeal to them
because within the in cell space, they're getting
fraternity, they're getting a victimhood identity that allows
them to externalize their problem.
They get a common enemy in the Chads and in the Stacy's.
They get a rich lexicon that gives them an in Group identity.
And they get to most of all avoid the discomfort of having
(31:28):
to participate in the market, inthe dating market, and instead
trade that for the camaraderie and friendships that they have
online. But I want to just make a point.
The followers or the people get pulled into this for maybe those
reasons or that need of, of alienation.
You're not talking about the Andrew Tate's and the grifters
and the people who are leading the men's rights movement who
(31:51):
view women as mere property at the main purpose of a wife is to
be completely under control and subservient as a slave to her
husband. So I just want to make that
distinction because even though we are digging a little bit
deeper and looking into the psychology and the social
elements that have created this,it's not an alibi in any way or
(32:15):
a softening of our stance against these despicable leaders
of this movement whose main goalis to push traditional religious
conservative ideology on women. Because to them, any notion of
women's freedom or independence is something to loathe.
(32:38):
Yeah, it's definitely a threat. And like you said, these people
are essentially grifters. They saw that there was a gap in
the market. They saw that there's an
appetite for this type of rhetoric.
So people jump in to fill those voids and it's an opportunity
for them to make money to gain popularity.
I think right now, I think there's a lot of factors
involved we're looking at like the cause causality dilemma,
(32:58):
right? So like what comes first, the
chicken or the egg? A lot of people say that online
misogyny is creating this behavior and subculture, right?
I don't agree with that. I don't agree like the Internet
is the evil person in this. I think that the social,
economic and political conditions in the society around
gender roles and changing norms and the economy, as Ezra was
(33:19):
saying, kind of created this world, right?
And I just want to speak a little bit about the Me Too
backlash because, you know, you mentioned Me Too and this was
going on around the same time asand we as we started to see and
sell culture kind of emerge around 2017.
And so I think we can all agree me too movement had a lot of
(33:42):
flaws, right? As a goal, holding abuse of
predators accountable and bringing attention to the
casting couch that was felt likethis cathartic response to
sexual inequality. Did it resolve sexual
inequality? Absolutely not, there was a
massive disappearance of the most pervasive crimes carried
(34:03):
out against poor and working class women.
Right. Mostly bourgeois women, as
feminism is, were presented as the victims.
Then you have the conflation of things like verbal harassment or
inappropriate behavior that was put into the exact same category
as violent crimes and abuse. Right, so lumping everything
into rape. There were more people at the
(34:24):
end of the Me Too movement that saw this as a kind of classic
puritanical witch hunt, right? Where a lot of people, a lot of
men were getting cancelled by mere accusation without any
evidence. And it increasingly became this
trial by media believe all women, no matter what.
So despite all those flaws, or maybe because of those flaws,
(34:46):
let's put the manosphere in thatframework, right?
There's also been over the last few years, a much more prevalent
focus on trans rights. There's been more trans
visibility. I think that you can say that
these movements have been imperfect, but that just the
premise of them fighting for some sort of equality or equal
(35:10):
footing, though they never get there, had a radicalizing effect
on men. And they're the leaders of the
men's rights movement where theycould capitalize on this and say
we are being punished for something we didn't do.
Very, very much so. So I think the big take away
from the Me Too movement for most people was believe women.
(35:32):
Believe women without question. And of course, that puts men in
a really awkward position. And men who are in this space
where their voices are being devalued started seeking other
places to find that value. So they sought out the
manosphere. And like, we're talking about
the chicken and the egg. I don't think the manosphere
would be as big as as it is if it wasn't an appetite for it.
(35:53):
This is a response to social. This is a psychological response
to changes in the culture for sure.
I agree with that completely there.
There would be nothing for a manosphere if there wasn't a
basis for it that would draw people to it.
And I think, yeah, believe all women.
One, yes, it does put men in a bad situation.
(36:14):
It also infantilizes women as though they're like not fully
human beings who are capable of lying and deception like any
other human being is capable of doing.
Having said all that, and havingearlier talked about alienation
and all these things, I make a distinction in my mind.
I can talk. I can consider the question of
alienation and its impact as a societal question.
(36:38):
And just like I can look at whatdrives someone towards the arm
of a racist demagogue as a societal question being
conditioned by his or her terrible economic situation.
That does not mean I'm going to sympathize with this person and
(36:58):
what they think. I, I, I want to answer the
societal question because I think this, I think answering
that is vital for the, the society as a whole, including
for those people. But I'm not going to suddenly
go, oh, poor person. He feels women have basically
(37:18):
destroyed his life because they haven't he he's made that person
has made-up a reality in their head to explain their conditions
as opposed to looking at what the real source of their
condition is. Like you said, I I do want to
emphasize that class is a really, really big part of this.
(37:39):
And like in the social conditions are a part of it too.
People are not making living wages.
So that's a big part of why these men feel they can't find
mates too. So definitely economics are part
of it. Yeah.
And I think it's just important,even if we don't have all the
answers or, you know, just the three of us to really, I think
it's important to look at it outside of the way that the
(38:01):
media portrays it because inevitably it's going to be very
shallow. You know?
And this was kind of the theme of adolescence, too, right?
Like, how horrible it is it to have these boys going onto their
phones and they can slip into this world.
And yes, that is a risk, right? Like if you are feeling a
certain way and you find an outlet, it will amplify.
(38:22):
It will amplify the voice that you want to find and the
connection that you want to find.
But social media in and of itself, I would argue, is not
what we're talking about. It's much bigger societal and
economic forces that are not going to be dealt with
fundamentally until you actuallylook at where gender is going,
where norms are going, how the family is changing in society.
(38:46):
Yeah, I think you bring up a lotof interesting points.
I think the reason that we see this space having so much fuel
right now is because there's so much change in our society in
terms of gender, in terms of women entering the workforce in
greater numbers and with greaterstrength.
And each one of these spaces really represents a different
response to those changes. The pickup artists and the alpha
(39:07):
males take a self improvement position.
They're going to be that top guy.
The trad people embrace it. The men's right and red pill
people are looking for politicalways to legislate and rollback
gains of the women's movement and big thousand in cells.
I have opted out. So you can see that this is a
response to changing shifts in our culture and yeah, just a lot
(39:31):
of more of bigger, bigger group of people feeling
disenfranchised and marginalized.
But also that there's a political administration that's
more amenable to those ideas, topromoting them openly and
explicitly, right? Like overtly as opposed to.
We know that. Misogynist ideals?
Yeah. Yeah, we know.
What party? Yeah, but I'm saying like the
(39:52):
the Trump administration, like it's not an I'm not saying
everything has to do with Trump.That's not our position ever on
this podcast, right? Like that Trump is to blame for
a societal ills, but Trump is a reflection of society, but he's
also giving access in a way and reinforcement of these ideas
(40:15):
because they're OK. That's actually, yeah, you're
you're OK if you think this way.And, you know, we're going to
change the laws to make sure that they reflect that ideology
because the left has gone too far.
I think it's almost not an accident that this movement
really comes viral around 20/15/2016, which is Trump one
(40:38):
point O And if we look at it today, if I were to come up with
an analogy, it would be so thesemen are facing real, you know,
difficulties and they blame women for it and say women are
the cost for for their conditionand how society has sort of in
their view, promoted women is the cause for their for their
(41:01):
condition. And I see an analogy with that
and people who are facing also very difficult situations and
say undocumented immigrants are the cause of my condition.
Undocumented immigrants taken myjobs and documented immigrants
have booted me out of my livelihood.
And in both of these cases, whatI see is someone that one I can
(41:25):
see an explanation for, for why they think the way they do in
sort of the breakdown of the economic structure of of
America, of capitalist America. But also their target is someone
who's beneath them. Actually.
They're punching down, not punching up.
And at the end of the day, whileI want to understand where
(41:46):
they're coming from and change the conditions that drive people
into these situations, my level of sympathy for them is pretty
minimal. Yeah, So I can see why you don't
have a lot of sympathy for thesemen.
And I think most of them don't deserve sympathy.
But I feel like I see each GroupA little differently.
When I think about the alpha males, I feel like, yeah, these
(42:08):
guys definitely don't deserve sympathy.
But when I think about some of the members of the incel group
who are young boys who are just figuring out their way, who are
dealing with social pressures that are confusing, who may be
economically disadvantaged. And I and I do feel some sense
of sympathy for them as they're going through this.
I remember being in middle school myself and, and you know,
it's a, it's a time where you'rereally vulnerable.
(42:30):
You're trying to figure out whatyour identity is.
You're trying to figure out how you to interact with the sex
that you're attracted to. And this rhetoric just kind of
preys on that insecurity and leads people in the wrong
direction. Yes, I can sympathize with a
child. Of course, what I find very hard
to sympathize with is once you've solidified an ideology
that says women are the enemy and women are the cause of my
(42:53):
problems, I may understand what societal framework that pushed
you in that direction. But once you've solidified that
ideology, the image that conjures in my mind is the kind
of person who cheers on the current deportations of
undocumented or documented immigrants because they've now
(43:14):
designated them the enemy. And do with them as you will.
Yeah, it's a it's a toxic ideology that is falsely
scapegoated women for sure. So yeah, there's not much
sympathy you can feel for that, for for grown men for sure.
I actually wouldn't mind taking a blue pill these days.
Yeah, I think we all can use a blue pill.
(43:42):
But we don't love anybody who doesn't love us.
Thanks for listening to Unwashedand Unruly, where we provide
true context, perfect tangents, and flawed debates.
Please join us for all our episodes.
Send us your questions, praise and complaints to
unwashedunruly@gmail.com.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com