September 8, 2025 • 37 mins
“You have to make difficult decisions to do things the right way.”
In this episode of Up Your Average, Keith and Doug interview Leah DeBaun who shares how her life choices—from living in a one-bedroom apartment with her parents to building a tiny house and eventually fostering and adopting a child—helped her expand her world and gain perspective.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
➡️ Why doing what is right is better than doing what is easy
➡️ How suffering can teach us more about God
➡️ The importance of emotion in life and decision making
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
Everything that could go wrong went wrong. And I was mad.
(00:02):
I was so mad, and my world wasso small, especially in that
hospital room. I mean,everything that mattered to me
was a problem. And so it justreally felt like God was saying,
I want you to feel what it feelslike to almost not have this.
Not in a mean way, but just in away that I would maybe
understand more of the gravityof it.
Host (00:24):
Welcome to the Up Your Average podcast, where Keith and
Doug give no nonsense advice tolevel up your life. So buckle up
and listen closely to up youraverage.
Keith (00:44):
Alright, Douglas. Here we are. Here we are. What do we
what do we call this weekend inCarmel?
Doug (00:49):
Oh, this is Artemobilia. I think that's how you say it.
And, one of my favorite car showstories belongs to my son,
Warner. We were cruisingsomewhere in Noblesville, and
Noblesville has this real cutelittle downtown square. And
we're cruising through, headinghome, and they were having a car
(01:11):
show there.
And at the time, I was driving areally sweet 1999 Chevy
Suburban. You remember that one?Yeah. I do. I mean, it was
sweet,
Keith (01:23):
but it was old. Yeah.
Doug (01:24):
And Warner says from the back seats, hey, dad. We should
probably pull over and put thehood up. There's gonna
Keith (01:31):
be some people who wanna see this thing.
Doug (01:34):
And so Artsmobilier, if you're watching and you're
within driving distance, it isworth the trip in my opinion,
but I like cars. I like people.But it's a it's like a real high
end car show. So it's like thisstuff that you dreamt about as a
little kid, Audi r eights andLamborghinis and Ferraris and,
(01:57):
you know, cash out your fourzero one k type cars.
Keith (02:00):
So It'll be fun.
Doug (02:02):
Yeah. I'll be walking around at some point.
Keith (02:04):
Yeah. And then Bring a chair. Use our yard here at
Gimbals. Sit on the Adirondacks.Make yourself at home and, have
fun.
We are fortunate today, Doug, tohave my friend Leah DeBond with
us. And Leah is cool. And so wehave been working on the theme
for a couple weeks now, and Ithink we're gonna go on for two
or three weeks. But the idea isthe smaller your world is, the
(02:28):
bigger your problems are. Andthe bigger your world, the
smaller your problems.
And I brought a I brought amirror because you can look in a
mirror and just stare atyourself, and all of a sudden
your problems expand. And so forme, it would have been 17 year
old Keith, which I'm sure youwould never believe this
happened, looked in the mirrorand noticed that these bangs
were just working their waybackwards. And that made me
(02:51):
think that my world was comingto an end. Like, how could this
happen to 17 year old me? And itnever occurred to me that 64
year old Keith would just beaverage.
Like, my hairstyle would beaverage at that point. But at
that time, it made me think thatwas the world. And so that's
part of what we've been doinghere, Leah. And then the globe
(03:12):
is the more you look at theglobe rather than the mirror,
then the bigger your world isbecause you can perceive things
better than if you keep lookingat the mirror. And so one of the
places I found on here, it ornot, Leah was familiar with it.
You wanna tell them what countrythat was?
Leah (03:30):
Yeah. So Ghana. I have told you I have Ghana. Ghana.
Burkina Faso.
Keith (03:33):
Burkina how many raise your hand out there. How many of
you know Burkina Faso?Okunumataba.
Leah (03:38):
It's tiny. It's a little one.
Doug (03:41):
Okay. I don't know it. I mean, I I know it from Keith
mentioning it a couple weeks
Leah (03:44):
ago. Capital city is Wagadagu.
Keith (03:47):
And or Kina Faso? Say that for
Leah (03:49):
Wagadagoo.
Keith (03:50):
Wagadagoo. You guys walk your dog, goo. You guys need to
know that today. And the reasonI bring that up and why you look
at the globe is when I went tolook at it, there's 23,000,000
people that live there. And Idon't know how big that is other
than imagining Indianapolis isroughly a million people.
And so there's a place for QuinoFosso that's 23 times bigger
(04:15):
than Indianapolis that I'venever heard of, and the average
person there lives on theequivalent of $2,800 year, which
I can't even like their problemsare so much bigger than mine. By
just knowing it's on the planet,what I did is I expanded my
world. And so you have I havewatched you with great joy
(04:35):
expand your world over theyears, and I wanted to talk
about that a little bit. Butbefore that, we're kicking off a
new thing here today. We'regonna give our guests a gift
today.
Oh, nice. Is Sup? This is worldfamous M. A. Hadley pig piggy
bank.
What do you think?
Leah (04:55):
I love it.
Doug (04:56):
Which is a cool pottery. Is that even the right thing to
say?
Keith (05:00):
Yeah. I don't know. Is that are you allowed to put
those words together?
Leah (05:03):
Cool and pottery.
Doug (05:03):
Oh, well, that's definitely the case. But, yeah,
this this they may have, like,they they're down in Louisville,
and they make this stuffhandmade. And our friend Ken
once owned the place. And, Imean, who owns a pottery? He
did.
But, anyway, we just we justlove it. Next time you're in
Louisville, you should drop downand say hi to them. Very They
(05:25):
sponsor the show. Well, theyreally don't. But
Keith (05:29):
So we got Jack and Kyler. They're they're they're they're
sought after here. We got a giftfor them, and we've got Taylor
here. And I'd say Taylor Longhas been top 50 people ever in
my circle. Like, he's just oneof the coolest 50 people I've
ever met.
So it's kind of fun having himhere live. But here's what I
want to start out with today.The traps that we get into, the
(05:54):
mind traps can make our worldsmaller. Right? And for some
reason, when you guys gotmarried, did you live in an
apartment?
What did you live in when yougot married?
Leah (06:03):
When we got married, yes, we lived in a one bedroom
apartment for a couple years.
Keith (06:07):
One bedroom, two years. Why would anybody ever do that?
Leah (06:11):
It's me. We moved in with my parents after that.
Keith (06:14):
Wow.
Leah (06:14):
It got even smaller.
Keith (06:15):
Okay. And then this is the part that makes you I don't
know anybody else that does thenext part. Talk talk to us about
what happened when you liveafter you live with your
parents.
Leah (06:24):
So we were living with my parents. They were generous
enough to let us live there andand save for a down payment on a
house, hopefully. We weren'treally sure what we were gonna
do, but they've always just hadthis open door policy, which is
great. And one night, my we'resitting around the the kitchen
table with my parents, and mydad goes, we should build a tiny
house. And I was like, really?
(06:46):
I think we should too. We'vebeen watching the show and kind
of like, you know, oh, this ishow we would do it. This is how
you would do it. And so we did.We built a tiny house on my
parents' property on a trailerwith the intention of building
it as an investment and thenselling it and using that money
as a down payment on a home.
And that's what we did.
Keith (07:03):
How big was the trailer?
Doug (07:05):
Like, they had dual axle or single axle?
Keith (07:08):
Dual axle. Yeah.
Leah (07:09):
The whole thing was 210 square feet including the lofted
space.
Keith (07:13):
Two but you that are listening, 210 feet. 210 square
feet. How long did you livethere? Actually, six months.
Yeah.
Six months? Okay. That's a longtime. I lived in some amount
less than that in an RV for twoweeks, and then it seemed like
an eternity.
Leah (07:32):
So Yeah. And we had a cat and a dog.
Keith (07:35):
So Yeah. We almost didn't build it then. Really? The
Canada border almost stopped usfrom building it. Oh, I remember
that.
Yeah.
Leah (07:43):
Yeah.
Keith (07:43):
You may not know this little resume pieces of mine,
but I did do some work on thattiny house. I don't even think
yeah. I don't remember what allI did. I remember in there
working. So, yeah, it was Did
Leah (07:55):
you sell it? Yeah. We sold it, and the guy who bought it
lives in San Francisco. And sohe hired there's a company you
can hire to come pick it up.They have, like, a big truck,
and we have footage of themdrive they drive it through it
all the way across the country.
Doug (08:09):
Did you make money on it?
Leah (08:10):
Yeah. Okay. So my dad got his investment back, and then we
split the profit, and it wasgreat. And that was a great
learning experience. I mean, itwas super, super hard and
frustrating, but it was fun.
Doug (08:21):
Who wants to build a tiny house this weekend? No.
Keith (08:26):
So so we went we went from the one bedroom apartment
with mom and dad, tiny house.Now you moved not into one of
the sexy towns around inIndianapolis. You moved a little
further away. Tell us where youlive and how big that is now.
Leah (08:40):
We live in Lapel, Indiana, and our house is 1,400 square
feet.
Keith (08:46):
1,400. Who could live in that much space?
Leah (08:48):
I know. It's not even all usable. I would say there's,
like, a thousand usable squarefeet. And now we have two dogs,
a cat, and two children.
Doug (09:00):
So That's good with that. Bulk bed. It is good.
Keith (09:04):
So from from when you moved into the apartment until
right now, how many years hasthat been?
Leah (09:10):
Ten.
Keith (09:11):
Ten years of choosing to constrain your space, but but by
doing that, you've expanded yourworld because you haven't put
yourself in significantfinancial bonds, I'm guessing.
And so what seems like you'reconstraining your world, you may
be expanding it, which is adifferent way of thinking for a
lot of people because it's verytempting to go buy that mansion,
(09:35):
get that greenhouse. Right?
Leah (09:36):
So tempting. We're building now, as you know, on a
couple acres, and I want to moveout there before the house is
done so bad. I and our houseseems to be getting smaller
every day. Like, the door framesare shrinking almost. But it's a
very sweet feeling to know thatthat we made some difficult
decisions in order to do thisthe right way.
Keith (09:58):
That's awesome. I love that. I love it. And I do know
because we had five kids in anRV, how small space can get very
quickly and how that can add toyour stresses in life as well.
So those of you who watching,just think you can expand your
world by thinking smallersometimes.
And who knows what opportunitiesand stories that's going to
(10:20):
give. I don't know anybody elsein my circle that has had a tiny
house. How about you, Doug? You
Doug (10:25):
My neighbors build them and sell them. Okay. But I I've
never asked them details. I andnow I'm curious.
Leah (10:31):
There's a lot of different ways to do it. We did a ton of
research, pulled in some peoplefrom our world, I'm big, you,
several other people that didsome electric and plumbing and
stuff. It's no small feat. Wait.Why did you bring Keith in?
I don't know. He was a willing
Keith (10:47):
I brought it myself. He just exaggerate. He doesn't do
any electric or plumbing. Let melet me throw it. I have, Doug.
I have done this also. I'vebuilt an airplane. That's true.
You have. Yeah.
That's true. Have. Leah's dad isbuilding his own airplane.
Right? And it's about time.
Doug (11:06):
Build things. And so I tell dad is a hero at the Shreve
House. He introduced Warner toto fly. And so we think that
Leah's dad is just a great man.He's a patient man, and he's an
excellent teacher.
And so popping rivets on hisairplane Yeah. Really makes
sense to me.
Keith (11:26):
Yeah. I've got a a bunch of those little resume things
nobody really knows about, butthat's a fun thing. Thanks to
your family. So so now I thinkit's two weeks ago I saw the
data point that only twelvepercent of Americans who are 30
years old are married and owntheir own house or have a house.
(11:47):
They don't I'm sure they don'town it.
Doug (11:49):
Is that high or low? I don't even know.
Keith (11:51):
Twenty years ago, it's closer to 40 or 50% at 30 years
old.
Doug (11:54):
Okay.
Keith (11:55):
And and
Doug (11:55):
so You'd served in two world wars by then as well.
Well,
Keith (12:02):
the the part that concerned me is like a long
range person is the idea thatwe're we're in a in a country
where birth rates are goingdown. Marriage rates are going
down. And but this wholeconversation started from our
friend, Larry May, and I didn'tdo my homework in time, but he
(12:24):
he he was I don't know what histitle is right now was for
organization like Indiana KidsBelong or something like that.
And so briefly, talk to us aboutLike like, how did Kyler come
into your life? Because I Idon't even know the story of how
that all happened for you youguys.
So
Leah (12:45):
Yeah. So our oldest son, he is six, six and a half. And
we decided shortly after in2019, we've moved into the house
that we're in right now and hadbeen trying to have kids, wasn't
really working out. I didn'treally wanna go the medical
route. And so we decided, well,let's let's try fostering.
(13:08):
I had thought about it in thepast. Taylor took a couple more
months to get on board, buteventually, I I won him over.
And so we signed up to foster atthe 2020, and we're licensed
very quickly within, like, twoand a half months. And three
(13:29):
days after we got our license,we got a phone call in the
middle of the night that therewas a 10 old little boy in
Anderson that needed somewhereto stay for the night. Wow.
And we had kind of stopped ourtraining right at where we had
completed all the fosterportion, but we were like, we're
we don't really wanna be let'sfoster for a while. We don't
wanna adopt. And I had kind ofconvinced myself that I didn't
(13:54):
want kids. I couldn't have kids,so I didn't really want them.
And that made me feel betterabout not being able to
Keith (13:59):
have
Leah (13:59):
them. And so we got this little boy, and long story
short, we never gave him back.And now he's our son. So it was
a really, really long journey.Working with DCS is not for the
faint of heart.
Doug (14:14):
And Tell
Keith (14:15):
us tell us what DCS is.
Leah (14:16):
Department of Children and Family Services. K. They have
multiple three letter that meanthe same thing, but essentially
CPS, DCS. And then also just,like, walking alongside him and
his birth mom was not an easything. That definitely expanded
my world.
(14:38):
I feel like before then, I waskind of raised in this bubble,
and I had done, like, kind ofmission trips and, like,
disaster relief. And I had kindof sort of stepped my foot out
of this, like, first world areathat I grew up in, but I had not
really allowed myself to feelwhat some of what some of these
(15:01):
people who were living down thestreet from me were feeling, how
they were raised, how they youknow, what their worldview was.
And it becoming his mom openedmy heart in a way that even
becoming a mom to my youngestson, who is biologically mine,
didn't. You know, I have adifferent connection with either
(15:22):
of them, but the connection thatI have with Kyler has expanded
my mind and my heart so much.So, yeah, I don't know
Keith (15:31):
if that's
Doug (15:32):
How many years did you walk alongside of your son's
mom? Like
Leah (15:36):
Let's see. So we so we got him a couple weeks after
lockdown. COVID happened.
Keith (15:41):
Oh, wow.
Leah (15:42):
Yeah. So that was intense. There's just, like, all of a
sudden, we have a 10 old. Wecan't leave the house, and we've
never had kids before.
Keith (15:48):
Did you hear the instructions?
Leah (15:49):
Call no. I told my mom that night, I was like, what do
these eat? Because I don't know.And we had all of these infant
clothes. We didn't think we weregonna get a 10 old.
We weren't expecting that thechild we got would be mobile,
and he's, like, crawling. Solet's see. We got him at the
2020, and then 2021 the rest ofthat year really was mostly
(16:14):
virtual just because of COVID.And I Taylor and I made a
decision to intentionallydistance ourselves in certain
ways from his mom so that wecould stay impartial because
there's legal proceedings goingon. And so in order to not be
called to testify at any of theparental rights trials or
(16:38):
anything like that, it's best ifwe just are the foster parents,
and that's it.
So he would be picked up forvisitation. We never met her
until after the adoption wasfinal, but I had, like, digital
communication with her. And itwas super hard. Yeah. Because
he's her baby.
Keith (16:57):
Right.
Leah (16:58):
But she's not making good choices, and she's not keeping
it safe. And he's been given tous, and it's just not how God
intended family. And so it feelsreally unnatural and kind of,
like, just gross. But at thesame time, you know that this
has been placed in your life andin your family for a reason to
make it not gross.
Doug (17:17):
High fives to all you guys. Because I'm sure those
were a lot of nights of tearsand and all kinds of emotions
and conversations and Oh,really? To everybody.
Leah (17:29):
That's hard.
Keith (17:30):
I I I don't even shout out a high five to Larry and
Tammy May because they've beenthey've been cheering this thing
on. I've gotten some of thefundraisers, and I'm like, I
don't know. Like, I've mentallyworked my way through it. I'm
like, I don't know how anybodydoes that, but it's really cool.
Doug (17:45):
They allow the voices to be heard.
Keith (17:47):
Right. Right. And so so so we've got Tyler. And then so
so what I sense is that there'sthis ebb and flow of your
emotions from a lot of differentthings, like moving in with your
mom and dad would be anemotional thing, moving into
this tiny house, all thesethings. Then then you get COVID
lockdown, which is throwing alot of emotions at you.
(18:10):
And then learning what you'redoing, and that would have been
a roller coaster. And then whendid you when did you look at the
thing? And That was wild. Talkto us. What do you mean look at
the thing?
Leah (18:25):
Pregnancy test.
Keith (18:26):
Oh, okay. Yeah. I've never been one of them.
Leah (18:29):
Neither have been either. I
Keith (18:30):
was by myself.
Leah (18:33):
What? So we had Tyler's 20, 20. So Tyler would have
been, like, two ish. He wasstill he was not adopted, and we
were still moving towardreunification. That's always the
goal.
They, like, count that in.Reunification is better. Even if
you don't think that they'regonna have a perfect home life,
it's you know, the studies showthat kids are better off with
their birth parents, period. Sothat was our goal, and that's
(18:55):
what we were working toward. AndI got pregnant, And I was not
happy because I, like I said,had decided that I didn't want
kids, and we were gonna giveKyler back.
And so I was a little irritatedwith god that he wouldn't allow
this to happen to me.
Doug (19:13):
Middle name, Sarah? No. Okay.
Leah (19:18):
So that started a season of my life where, like you said,
COVID kind of shrunk my world,everybody's world, I think. And
then getting pregnant, I gotreally, really, really sick. I
had hyperemesis. I had COVID andRSV in my third trimester. And
then five and a half weeksbefore my due date, I was
(19:40):
hospitalized and had anemergency C section, was in the
hospital for a week, and Jackwas in the NICU for two weeks.
I didn't get to meet him forthirty six hours. It was like
everything they lost myplacenta. Everything that could
go wrong went wrong.
Keith (19:56):
Let's keep moving forward.
Leah (19:57):
Yeah. And I was mad. I was so mad, and my world was so
small, especially in thathospital room. I mean,
everything that mattered to mewas a problem. You know?
I I at this point, we hadplanned on keeping Kyler. When I
got pregnant, we spent a lot oftime in prayer and just talking
(20:18):
about, okay. So God's given usthis child. Maybe he's also
trying to give us this otherchild. We're not really sure
what that looks like, but itreally feels like we're supposed
to be parents at this point.
And we were at a point in thereunification adoption sort of
space where they were saying,okay. His mom is not improving.
(20:39):
Either you guys are gonna startthe adoption process, or we're
gonna move him to an adoptivehome. And so right before I got
pregnant, we went on a vacationand just Taylor and I. And
before we left for thatvacation, Kyler was gonna go to
a visitation with his mom.
And if it went well, he wasn'tgonna come back.
Doug (21:00):
Right. Right.
Leah (21:02):
So I remember that weekend, we went to a bunch of
parks. We met up with Taylor'sparents. We met up with my
parents and my brother, and,like, everybody kind of said
their goodbyes, but, like, maybenot. And that was so hard. And
then I got pregnant.
And so it just really felt likegod was saying, you know, like,
(21:25):
I want you to feel what it feelslike to almost not have this.
Not in a not in a mean way, butjust in a way that I would maybe
understand more of the gravityof it. And so we came go ahead.
Doug (21:39):
What would be your message to someone who's at that place
this weekend where the wherethey might take the foster kid
to the park to see his mom, andthat might be it? What what what
would you tell them today basedon what you know now?
Leah (21:54):
Hug them really hard and pray.
Keith (21:57):
Yeah.
Leah (21:58):
And there's other practical things you can do.
Like, you can try to stay incontact, but, like, there's so
many different burial variablesthat that can make that not
possible. But, honestly, prayerhas been prayer is really, like,
one of the only ways that I feellike I can cope with the foster
care system, but also kids ingeneral. Just anything out of
(22:19):
your control, and kids are verymuch out of your control, like,
no matter where they come from.
Doug (22:24):
I love that God can touch hearts. He can go through walls,
go through counties, just likethat. And so I think prayer only
makes sense.
Leah (22:33):
Yeah.
Doug (22:34):
The only way you could have communication with them.
Mhmm. So
Keith (22:39):
so we're at the park.
Leah (22:41):
Yeah. We're saying goodbye.
Keith (22:43):
We're saying goodbye, and then then spring forward for us
what happens then.
Leah (22:49):
Yeah. So we get back from vacation. I get pregnant. We
pray a lot and decide, okay. Ithink we're gonna keep him,
which is, like, kind of a crazyconversation to have.
Right? It's like, he's not adog. But it's like, are we gonna
keep him? Or we don't I mean,I'm like it's not a common
(23:10):
conversation that people have,you know, unless they're talking
about a dog.
Keith (23:14):
That's the thing. This is this is kind of an irrevocable
decision, though. Yeah. I onceyou say I do, it's like
Leah (23:20):
Right.
Keith (23:21):
Okay.
Leah (23:22):
And you're dealing with this child who, like, you feel
almost more of a responsibilityfor because I always felt this
connection with his mom that,like, I me and her are the only
two people who know what it'slike to be Kyler's mom.
Doug (23:35):
Wow.
Leah (23:36):
And so I felt this just level of, like, grace and love
toward her that I have not felttoward anyone else ever. And I
don't know that I would be ableto apply that to anyone else,
but she passed away last fallfrom an overdose, and that that
(24:01):
shook me more than I thought itwould for him. Because I
thought, you know, things aren'tthings aren't good now. She
can't do it now. But maybe shecan, or maybe she could be his
friend.
Maybe he can know where he camefrom. Maybe he can see how much
she really wanted to do it. Shewanted to love him. She or she
(24:22):
loves him, but she wanted to beable to provide that for him,
and I wanted him to see that.And so when she passed away,
just knowing that he would neverget that from her in the first
person was another layer ofresponsibility.
Right? Because then it's like,okay. Now it's my job too, not
only to be his mom, but to teachhim who his first mommy. That's
(24:43):
what we call her. His firstmommy is.
What a legacy. What all she didfor him. Because she raised it
for ten months, and that's notnothing. I've raised a baby from
zero to 10, and it's very hard.So and she did it with way less
support and with way less justcommunity.
And so I'm just very impressedby her, and I wish that she
(25:08):
could have stuck around. I wishthat she could have been more
part of our lives. But I'mgrateful that I have him, and
I'm grateful to her for that.
Keith (25:17):
I've I've had this and I ponder a lot of stuff, but one
of them was, like, if you if yougrew up in a dysfunctional
house, for example, you couldhave a bad attitude towards the
people that were leaving thatsituation. But one of the things
that occurred to me a few yearsago was whoever the parents
(25:37):
were, most likely they did thevery best they could at that
time with what they knew. And togive somebody grace to that
situation takes a little bit ofstepping back and thinking about
what what got them to where theywere. And it's really hard to
know, I think. It's really ahard thing to know.
But just giving people that muchspace is big deal.
Leah (25:56):
It's amazing how many people when I talk about our
experience with the foster caresystem and specifically with
Kyler, it's amazing how manypeople will say something
negative about her and thinkthat that's just they don't
understand that she aged out ofthe foster care system. She
never had a mom. Yeah. Well, Ican't imagine being a mom
(26:18):
without my mom. I almost lost mymom in 2019 to cancer, and I
think all the time about, like,oh my gosh.
What would have happened? Imean, I would have I don't know
what I don't know that we wouldhave either of our boys. I mean,
there's just so much that a momand a dad shouldn't have that
either, but there's so much thata mom offers that becomes who
(26:40):
you are.
Keith (26:42):
So so man, there's so much that we could go to. I
wanna I wanna make a shift ifyou're okay. Let me grab
something off my bookshelf here.But this, I've mentioned this in
a number of our podcasts, how tostop worrying and start living.
Found this book last summer, Ithink, and bought enough copies
(27:02):
that I could share with anybody.
So so and my kids have heard mesay this over and over that you
guys talk differently than I do.And so you you, being generally
people your age, have a phrasethat I never said, and I catch
myself saying it now. And I saidit differently. You say, I feel
(27:24):
like. And what I said in thatsame season was I think.
Does that make sense? And so itkinda helps me think differently
about younger people becauseyou've kind of been a mentor to
feel more than to think aboutthings. I'm not saying that
judgmentally. I'm just saying
Leah (27:45):
I agree.
Keith (27:45):
And so you told me you were willing to talk a little
bit. We don't have a ton
Doug (27:49):
of time to talk today. I bet we'd be going overtime a
little bit.
Keith (27:53):
Okay. Say anything? Well, we're just gonna the the this
topic, we need I I asked Lee ifshe'd come back in a few months
and go away so I could researcha little more. So our goal is
all we'll go a little over timebecause this topic, I think, is
a huge deal. Yeah.
But what were the letters youtexted me that you're willing to
talk about? Because I don't knowwhat it
Leah (28:11):
was. SSRI.
Keith (28:12):
SSRI. Do know what that is, Doug?
Leah (28:15):
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's an
antidepressant.
Keith (28:19):
I still don't know what it is. Okay. Be grateful that
you I know what that is. Right.And and I'm not saying I this
conversation is just to talkabout what are you doing with it
because this book, when I readit, I thought, my goodness, this
(28:39):
book answers a lot of questionsI had in 1992 that nobody had
talked to me about.
So so you if you're involvedwith an antidepressant, then I'm
taking it. You must have beendiagnosed as depressed.
Leah (28:53):
Yeah. About thirteen years ago. When I was 18 years old,
and my whole world was sort ofimploding from a family and
church scandal. They were like,you know what? Your problem is?
You're depressed. Okay. You havea brain condition.
Keith (29:08):
Okay. Is that how they said it? Or they said it some
other way? Or
Leah (29:11):
No. I mean, they said you you have a chemical imbalance in
your brain, so you need thesemedic you need these drugs.
Keith (29:17):
And and how how was that being expressed to you
personally? What were youexperiencing at that point?
Leah (29:24):
I had gone to a couple I will come to a Christian
counselor that I was not a fanof, so I stopped going to her.
And then I started going to apsychiatrist up in Lafayette
while I was at Purdue going tocollege. And she I think it was
our first meeting. I sort ofexplained what was going on just
(29:44):
situationally and then how Ifelt about it. And she said, I
think that this drug couldreally help you.
I don't remember if she said,you know, we can do this short
term or not, but it ended up notbeing short term. So but it was
thirteen years ago too. So mymemory is failing.
Keith (30:03):
So so what I think this is my opinion. What has evolved
generically is and what Carnegietalked about here was sometimes
you have to learn coping skills.And and so when when I was
talking about the the BurkinaFaso, the stuff that the people
were dealing with every day wasprobably I don't wanna minimize
(30:24):
what you were going through.Probably a lot worse than what
you were going through, but youonly had your small world to put
it in perspective. Right.
And so if you had that day to doover because you you were
telling you were telling metapering. Is that what you were
talking about?
Leah (30:41):
Yeah. So tapering off. So basically, since then, I've
added another medication andthen steadily increased for
thirteen years. Until now, I wasbasically maxed out. I couldn't
go anymore on those two drugs.
So the so we were either gonnaadd another one or what are we
gonna do? I mean, I have thisbrain condition. My I don't have
(31:02):
the right chemicals in my brain,so we have to do something. I
can't fix it.
Keith (31:06):
So you you you had a a traumatic event that kicked this
off. I know your mom battledcancer. We talked about your
house and all the volatilitythere. That's they used to have
a scale of the high stressevents in life. I think I would
think those three would bepretty high.
Leah (31:26):
My pregnancy and delivery was
Keith (31:28):
That well, having a child will be high. Yeah. And then
having a child that you may haveor may not have, that may not be
on that list, but it blows mybrain even to think about that.
So you've had all theseemotional things. And in the
midst of that, you're you'retapering?
Leah (31:45):
Well, in the midst of all that, I was increasing.
Keith (31:47):
Okay.
Leah (31:48):
But but yeah. Now I'm now I'm tapering. I started tapering
in June.
Doug (31:52):
Tape someone start doing that? Do you raise your hand and
say, I'm gonna start tapering?Or
Leah (31:57):
It depends on how involved your doctor is. I messaged my
doctor, and I said, hey. I wannastart tapering.
Doug (32:04):
Is that a good idea?
Leah (32:06):
I think it depends. I I was starting to feel nothing,
which and it's hard to describethat because I had been on it
for so long. Just in the lastcouple of months, I've started
to feel again. And so it's hardfor me to describe, like,
feeling nothing because it wasalmost like I I started feeling
(32:27):
nothing even more, which is ahard thing to put into words.
But I wouldn't recommend peoplejust taper off their
antidepressants willy nilly.
Doug (32:35):
Yeah.
Leah (32:36):
Don't do that. Yeah. So so And don't stop taking them. If
you just stop taking them, theywill cause serious brain damage.
They're very, very seriousdrugs, especially benzos, which
is not
Keith (32:47):
So so I don't even know, like, one of our kinda mantras
that give us think differently.I don't know how you even would
start that process. Like, how ifyou're feeling nothing, what
what happened that one dayyou're like, maybe I could feel
again. Like, I don't even knowhow you would stop thinking the
other way.
Leah (33:05):
I I really think it was God. I really just think the
spirit prompted me to startthinking differently. And the
the what I started thinkingdifferently about was these
medications, and I think thatwas the first step of once I
started to break down, then itwas like, okay. Now this
feeling's getting a little bitmore. Now I really feel like I
need to get off of these.
Oh, wait. Now I'm I'mdiscovering more things about
(33:27):
myself. Oh, wait. I can feel Ican feel this emotion now. And
so I'm like learning
Doug (33:32):
for anxious.
Leah (33:32):
Yeah. I'm learning more and more about myself, but the
first sort of spark, I don'tknow. I I again, I can only
credit that to god because whenyou're feeling nothing, it's
hard to feel anything. You know?Yeah.
Keith (33:45):
That's what I'm saying. And and I would think that there
would be this thought in yourhead. If I if I taper from this
and something goes off therails, what am I gonna do now? I
don't know if that was a thoughtyou've processed. Or
Leah (34:03):
I wrote this down the other night, actually, and
shared it with Taylor. I wasjournaling, but I said so SSRIs
are they could be numbing. I'veheard them described that way,
and that's a very act it's notfor everybody, but it's very
accurate for me. And anotherthing that helped me when I
started this tapering journey isbecause of how some of my
(34:25):
medications were formulated, Ihad to go on a twice a day
regimen because I was taking anextended release capsule, and I
couldn't cut it. And so I'm,like, at home cutting like, I I
have a pill binder in my bag.
I'm cutting you know, I'm takingdown just milligrams a day to
try to get off of these safely.But I couldn't do that with one
of my medications. So I had tomessage my doctor, and I said,
(34:47):
hey. I wanna taper. Can you sendme a prescription for this
immediate release version?
My doctor's not involved in mylife, so she was like, sure.
Sent it. No big deal. She'slike, good luck with your taper.
So what happened is I got reallystrict about when I was taking
my meds because I was takingthem twice a day now.
Not realizing that I had beenreally bad at taking my meds
(35:08):
before, only taking them, like,every other day, every third
day. And so all of a sudden, wason way more drugs than I even
had been before I wanted to take
Keith (35:16):
them. And
Leah (35:17):
my emotions were gone. I felt nothing. I mean, Taylor and
I would be driving in the car,and I'm just like a zombie. And
so I felt like that was ablessing in disguise because it
it confirmed, like, okay. I wantmore of these now, and I'm
feeling way less.
So you started to up and keepscore. Yeah. So I wrote this
down the other night. I alwaysassumed that turning my feelings
(35:42):
up would be horrible. Becausewhen I turned them down, it was
because they were horrible.
But it's almost like in the lastthirteen years, someone has
changed the channel. And so I'mturning them up, and it's good.
And I wrote, it's not that myfeelings have only increased.
(36:02):
They've expanded. And so myemotional vocabulary is
exploding.
I felt joy and gratitude andhope multiple times lately. So I
know it's not a fluke because Ican be very cynical and be like,
well, you know, like, it'sbecause it's sunny outside or
something. You know? But it'slike it's it's becoming
consistent. I'm driving in thecar and and noticing the trees
(36:23):
and just, like I'll find that Ithat I have a little smile on my
face for no reason.
And it's, like, so magical. It'scool to feel things.
Keith (36:36):
What do you know now that I we were talking yesterday.
It's magical to feel things.What do you think? Is that is
that our title? I mean, magical.
Yeah. I think
Doug (36:44):
that sounds pretty good. Yeah. I mean,
Leah (36:47):
we'll let you know how it goes.
Keith (36:48):
It's been magical to hang out with Billy, and I hope you
all enjoyed our time together.And I I'm glad we have you back
because I I'd really love tojump into this and talk to it
specifically for you, see whereyou're at and help other people
that might wanna talk and learnabout it as well.
Leah (37:03):
Absolutely. Anytime.
Keith (37:04):
You guys have a great weekend, and thanks for hanging
with us today. We'll see yousoon.
Everything that could go wrong went wrong. And I was mad.
(00:02):
I was so mad, and my world wasso small, especially in that
hospital room. I mean,everything that mattered to me
was a problem. And so it justreally felt like God was saying,
I want you to feel what it feelslike to almost not have this.
Not in a mean way, but just in away that I would maybe
understand more of the gravityof it.
Host (00:24):
Welcome to the Up Your Average podcast, where Keith and
Doug give no nonsense advice tolevel up your life. So buckle up
and listen closely to up youraverage.
Keith (00:44):
Alright, Douglas. Here we are. Here we are. What do we
what do we call this weekend inCarmel?
Doug (00:49):
Oh, this is Artemobilia. I think that's how you say it.
And, one of my favorite car showstories belongs to my son,
Warner. We were cruisingsomewhere in Noblesville, and
Noblesville has this real cutelittle downtown square. And
we're cruising through, headinghome, and they were having a car
(01:11):
show there.
And at the time, I was driving areally sweet 1999 Chevy
Suburban. You remember that one?Yeah. I do. I mean, it was
sweet,
Keith (01:23):
but it was old. Yeah.
Doug (01:24):
And Warner says from the back seats, hey, dad. We should
probably pull over and put thehood up. There's gonna
Keith (01:31):
be some people who wanna see this thing.
Doug (01:34):
And so Artsmobilier, if you're watching and you're
within driving distance, it isworth the trip in my opinion,
but I like cars. I like people.But it's a it's like a real high
end car show. So it's like thisstuff that you dreamt about as a
little kid, Audi r eights andLamborghinis and Ferraris and,
(01:57):
you know, cash out your fourzero one k type cars.
Keith (02:00):
So It'll be fun.
Doug (02:02):
Yeah. I'll be walking around at some point.
Keith (02:04):
Yeah. And then Bring a chair. Use our yard here at
Gimbals. Sit on the Adirondacks.Make yourself at home and, have
fun.
We are fortunate today, Doug, tohave my friend Leah DeBond with
us. And Leah is cool. And so wehave been working on the theme
for a couple weeks now, and Ithink we're gonna go on for two
or three weeks. But the idea isthe smaller your world is, the
(02:28):
bigger your problems are. Andthe bigger your world, the
smaller your problems.
And I brought a I brought amirror because you can look in a
mirror and just stare atyourself, and all of a sudden
your problems expand. And so forme, it would have been 17 year
old Keith, which I'm sure youwould never believe this
happened, looked in the mirrorand noticed that these bangs
were just working their waybackwards. And that made me
(02:51):
think that my world was comingto an end. Like, how could this
happen to 17 year old me? And itnever occurred to me that 64
year old Keith would just beaverage.
Like, my hairstyle would beaverage at that point. But at
that time, it made me think thatwas the world. And so that's
part of what we've been doinghere, Leah. And then the globe
(03:12):
is the more you look at theglobe rather than the mirror,
then the bigger your world isbecause you can perceive things
better than if you keep lookingat the mirror. And so one of the
places I found on here, it ornot, Leah was familiar with it.
You wanna tell them what countrythat was?
Leah (03:30):
Yeah. So Ghana. I have told you I have Ghana. Ghana.
Burkina Faso.
Keith (03:33):
Burkina how many raise your hand out there. How many of
you know Burkina Faso?Okunumataba.
Leah (03:38):
It's tiny. It's a little one.
Doug (03:41):
Okay. I don't know it. I mean, I I know it from Keith
mentioning it a couple weeks
Leah (03:44):
ago. Capital city is Wagadagu.
Keith (03:47):
And or Kina Faso? Say that for
Leah (03:49):
Wagadagoo.
Keith (03:50):
Wagadagoo. You guys walk your dog, goo. You guys need to
know that today. And the reasonI bring that up and why you look
at the globe is when I went tolook at it, there's 23,000,000
people that live there. And Idon't know how big that is other
than imagining Indianapolis isroughly a million people.
And so there's a place for QuinoFosso that's 23 times bigger
(04:15):
than Indianapolis that I'venever heard of, and the average
person there lives on theequivalent of $2,800 year, which
I can't even like their problemsare so much bigger than mine. By
just knowing it's on the planet,what I did is I expanded my
world. And so you have I havewatched you with great joy
(04:35):
expand your world over theyears, and I wanted to talk
about that a little bit. Butbefore that, we're kicking off a
new thing here today. We'regonna give our guests a gift
today.
Oh, nice. Is Sup? This is worldfamous M. A. Hadley pig piggy
bank.
What do you think?
Leah (04:55):
I love it.
Doug (04:56):
Which is a cool pottery. Is that even the right thing to
say?
Keith (05:00):
Yeah. I don't know. Is that are you allowed to put
those words together?
Leah (05:03):
Cool and pottery.
Doug (05:03):
Oh, well, that's definitely the case. But, yeah,
this this they may have, like,they they're down in Louisville,
and they make this stuffhandmade. And our friend Ken
once owned the place. And, Imean, who owns a pottery? He
did.
But, anyway, we just we justlove it. Next time you're in
Louisville, you should drop downand say hi to them. Very They
(05:25):
sponsor the show. Well, theyreally don't. But
Keith (05:29):
So we got Jack and Kyler. They're they're they're they're
sought after here. We got a giftfor them, and we've got Taylor
here. And I'd say Taylor Longhas been top 50 people ever in
my circle. Like, he's just oneof the coolest 50 people I've
ever met.
So it's kind of fun having himhere live. But here's what I
want to start out with today.The traps that we get into, the
(05:54):
mind traps can make our worldsmaller. Right? And for some
reason, when you guys gotmarried, did you live in an
apartment?
What did you live in when yougot married?
Leah (06:03):
When we got married, yes, we lived in a one bedroom
apartment for a couple years.
Keith (06:07):
One bedroom, two years. Why would anybody ever do that?
Leah (06:11):
It's me. We moved in with my parents after that.
Keith (06:14):
Wow.
Leah (06:14):
It got even smaller.
Keith (06:15):
Okay. And then this is the part that makes you I don't
know anybody else that does thenext part. Talk talk to us about
what happened when you liveafter you live with your
parents.
Leah (06:24):
So we were living with my parents. They were generous
enough to let us live there andand save for a down payment on a
house, hopefully. We weren'treally sure what we were gonna
do, but they've always just hadthis open door policy, which is
great. And one night, my we'resitting around the the kitchen
table with my parents, and mydad goes, we should build a tiny
house. And I was like, really?
(06:46):
I think we should too. We'vebeen watching the show and kind
of like, you know, oh, this ishow we would do it. This is how
you would do it. And so we did.We built a tiny house on my
parents' property on a trailerwith the intention of building
it as an investment and thenselling it and using that money
as a down payment on a home.
And that's what we did.
Keith (07:03):
How big was the trailer?
Doug (07:05):
Like, they had dual axle or single axle?
Keith (07:08):
Dual axle. Yeah.
Leah (07:09):
The whole thing was 210 square feet including the lofted
space.
Keith (07:13):
Two but you that are listening, 210 feet. 210 square
feet. How long did you livethere? Actually, six months.
Yeah.
Six months? Okay. That's a longtime. I lived in some amount
less than that in an RV for twoweeks, and then it seemed like
an eternity.
Leah (07:32):
So Yeah. And we had a cat and a dog.
Keith (07:35):
So Yeah. We almost didn't build it then. Really? The
Canada border almost stopped usfrom building it. Oh, I remember
that.
Yeah.
Leah (07:43):
Yeah.
Keith (07:43):
You may not know this little resume pieces of mine,
but I did do some work on thattiny house. I don't even think
yeah. I don't remember what allI did. I remember in there
working. So, yeah, it was Did
Leah (07:55):
you sell it? Yeah. We sold it, and the guy who bought it
lives in San Francisco. And sohe hired there's a company you
can hire to come pick it up.They have, like, a big truck,
and we have footage of themdrive they drive it through it
all the way across the country.
Doug (08:09):
Did you make money on it?
Leah (08:10):
Yeah. Okay. So my dad got his investment back, and then we
split the profit, and it wasgreat. And that was a great
learning experience. I mean, itwas super, super hard and
frustrating, but it was fun.
Doug (08:21):
Who wants to build a tiny house this weekend? No.
Keith (08:26):
So so we went we went from the one bedroom apartment
with mom and dad, tiny house.Now you moved not into one of
the sexy towns around inIndianapolis. You moved a little
further away. Tell us where youlive and how big that is now.
Leah (08:40):
We live in Lapel, Indiana, and our house is 1,400 square
feet.
Keith (08:46):
1,400. Who could live in that much space?
Leah (08:48):
I know. It's not even all usable. I would say there's,
like, a thousand usable squarefeet. And now we have two dogs,
a cat, and two children.
Doug (09:00):
So That's good with that. Bulk bed. It is good.
Keith (09:04):
So from from when you moved into the apartment until
right now, how many years hasthat been?
Leah (09:10):
Ten.
Keith (09:11):
Ten years of choosing to constrain your space, but but by
doing that, you've expanded yourworld because you haven't put
yourself in significantfinancial bonds, I'm guessing.
And so what seems like you'reconstraining your world, you may
be expanding it, which is adifferent way of thinking for a
lot of people because it's verytempting to go buy that mansion,
(09:35):
get that greenhouse. Right?
Leah (09:36):
So tempting. We're building now, as you know, on a
couple acres, and I want to moveout there before the house is
done so bad. I and our houseseems to be getting smaller
every day. Like, the door framesare shrinking almost. But it's a
very sweet feeling to know thatthat we made some difficult
decisions in order to do thisthe right way.
Keith (09:58):
That's awesome. I love that. I love it. And I do know
because we had five kids in anRV, how small space can get very
quickly and how that can add toyour stresses in life as well.
So those of you who watching,just think you can expand your
world by thinking smallersometimes.
And who knows what opportunitiesand stories that's going to
(10:20):
give. I don't know anybody elsein my circle that has had a tiny
house. How about you, Doug? You
Doug (10:25):
My neighbors build them and sell them. Okay. But I I've
never asked them details. I andnow I'm curious.
Leah (10:31):
There's a lot of different ways to do it. We did a ton of
research, pulled in some peoplefrom our world, I'm big, you,
several other people that didsome electric and plumbing and
stuff. It's no small feat. Wait.Why did you bring Keith in?
I don't know. He was a willing
Keith (10:47):
I brought it myself. He just exaggerate. He doesn't do
any electric or plumbing. Let melet me throw it. I have, Doug.
I have done this also. I'vebuilt an airplane. That's true.
You have. Yeah.
That's true. Have. Leah's dad isbuilding his own airplane.
Right? And it's about time.
Doug (11:06):
Build things. And so I tell dad is a hero at the Shreve
House. He introduced Warner toto fly. And so we think that
Leah's dad is just a great man.He's a patient man, and he's an
excellent teacher.
And so popping rivets on hisairplane Yeah. Really makes
sense to me.
Keith (11:26):
Yeah. I've got a a bunch of those little resume things
nobody really knows about, butthat's a fun thing. Thanks to
your family. So so now I thinkit's two weeks ago I saw the
data point that only twelvepercent of Americans who are 30
years old are married and owntheir own house or have a house.
(11:47):
They don't I'm sure they don'town it.
Doug (11:49):
Is that high or low? I don't even know.
Keith (11:51):
Twenty years ago, it's closer to 40 or 50% at 30 years
old.
Doug (11:54):
Okay.
Keith (11:55):
And and
Doug (11:55):
so You'd served in two world wars by then as well.
Well,
Keith (12:02):
the the part that concerned me is like a long
range person is the idea thatwe're we're in a in a country
where birth rates are goingdown. Marriage rates are going
down. And but this wholeconversation started from our
friend, Larry May, and I didn'tdo my homework in time, but he
(12:24):
he he was I don't know what histitle is right now was for
organization like Indiana KidsBelong or something like that.
And so briefly, talk to us aboutLike like, how did Kyler come
into your life? Because I Idon't even know the story of how
that all happened for you youguys.
So
Leah (12:45):
Yeah. So our oldest son, he is six, six and a half. And
we decided shortly after in2019, we've moved into the house
that we're in right now and hadbeen trying to have kids, wasn't
really working out. I didn'treally wanna go the medical
route. And so we decided, well,let's let's try fostering.
(13:08):
I had thought about it in thepast. Taylor took a couple more
months to get on board, buteventually, I I won him over.
And so we signed up to foster atthe 2020, and we're licensed
very quickly within, like, twoand a half months. And three
(13:29):
days after we got our license,we got a phone call in the
middle of the night that therewas a 10 old little boy in
Anderson that needed somewhereto stay for the night. Wow.
And we had kind of stopped ourtraining right at where we had
completed all the fosterportion, but we were like, we're
we don't really wanna be let'sfoster for a while. We don't
wanna adopt. And I had kind ofconvinced myself that I didn't
(13:54):
want kids. I couldn't have kids,so I didn't really want them.
And that made me feel betterabout not being able to
Keith (13:59):
have
Leah (13:59):
them. And so we got this little boy, and long story
short, we never gave him back.And now he's our son. So it was
a really, really long journey.Working with DCS is not for the
faint of heart.
Doug (14:14):
And Tell
Keith (14:15):
us tell us what DCS is.
Leah (14:16):
Department of Children and Family Services. K. They have
multiple three letter that meanthe same thing, but essentially
CPS, DCS. And then also just,like, walking alongside him and
his birth mom was not an easything. That definitely expanded
my world.
(14:38):
I feel like before then, I waskind of raised in this bubble,
and I had done, like, kind ofmission trips and, like,
disaster relief. And I had kindof sort of stepped my foot out
of this, like, first world areathat I grew up in, but I had not
really allowed myself to feelwhat some of what some of these
(15:01):
people who were living down thestreet from me were feeling, how
they were raised, how they youknow, what their worldview was.
And it becoming his mom openedmy heart in a way that even
becoming a mom to my youngestson, who is biologically mine,
didn't. You know, I have adifferent connection with either
(15:22):
of them, but the connection thatI have with Kyler has expanded
my mind and my heart so much.So, yeah, I don't know
Keith (15:31):
if that's
Doug (15:32):
How many years did you walk alongside of your son's
mom? Like
Leah (15:36):
Let's see. So we so we got him a couple weeks after
lockdown. COVID happened.
Keith (15:41):
Oh, wow.
Leah (15:42):
Yeah. So that was intense. There's just, like, all of a
sudden, we have a 10 old. Wecan't leave the house, and we've
never had kids before.
Keith (15:48):
Did you hear the instructions?
Leah (15:49):
Call no. I told my mom that night, I was like, what do
these eat? Because I don't know.And we had all of these infant
clothes. We didn't think we weregonna get a 10 old.
We weren't expecting that thechild we got would be mobile,
and he's, like, crawling. Solet's see. We got him at the
2020, and then 2021 the rest ofthat year really was mostly
(16:14):
virtual just because of COVID.And I Taylor and I made a
decision to intentionallydistance ourselves in certain
ways from his mom so that wecould stay impartial because
there's legal proceedings goingon. And so in order to not be
called to testify at any of theparental rights trials or
(16:38):
anything like that, it's best ifwe just are the foster parents,
and that's it.
So he would be picked up forvisitation. We never met her
until after the adoption wasfinal, but I had, like, digital
communication with her. And itwas super hard. Yeah. Because
he's her baby.
Keith (16:57):
Right.
Leah (16:58):
But she's not making good choices, and she's not keeping
it safe. And he's been given tous, and it's just not how God
intended family. And so it feelsreally unnatural and kind of,
like, just gross. But at thesame time, you know that this
has been placed in your life andin your family for a reason to
make it not gross.
Doug (17:17):
High fives to all you guys. Because I'm sure those
were a lot of nights of tearsand and all kinds of emotions
and conversations and Oh,really? To everybody.
Leah (17:29):
That's hard.
Keith (17:30):
I I I don't even shout out a high five to Larry and
Tammy May because they've beenthey've been cheering this thing
on. I've gotten some of thefundraisers, and I'm like, I
don't know. Like, I've mentallyworked my way through it. I'm
like, I don't know how anybodydoes that, but it's really cool.
Doug (17:45):
They allow the voices to be heard.
Keith (17:47):
Right. Right. And so so so we've got Tyler. And then so
so what I sense is that there'sthis ebb and flow of your
emotions from a lot of differentthings, like moving in with your
mom and dad would be anemotional thing, moving into
this tiny house, all thesethings. Then then you get COVID
lockdown, which is throwing alot of emotions at you.
(18:10):
And then learning what you'redoing, and that would have been
a roller coaster. And then whendid you when did you look at the
thing? And That was wild. Talkto us. What do you mean look at
the thing?
Leah (18:25):
Pregnancy test.
Keith (18:26):
Oh, okay. Yeah. I've never been one of them.
Leah (18:29):
Neither have been either. I
Keith (18:30):
was by myself.
Leah (18:33):
What? So we had Tyler's 20, 20. So Tyler would have
been, like, two ish. He wasstill he was not adopted, and we
were still moving towardreunification. That's always the
goal.
They, like, count that in.Reunification is better. Even if
you don't think that they'regonna have a perfect home life,
it's you know, the studies showthat kids are better off with
their birth parents, period. Sothat was our goal, and that's
(18:55):
what we were working toward. AndI got pregnant, And I was not
happy because I, like I said,had decided that I didn't want
kids, and we were gonna giveKyler back.
And so I was a little irritatedwith god that he wouldn't allow
this to happen to me.
Doug (19:13):
Middle name, Sarah? No. Okay.
Leah (19:18):
So that started a season of my life where, like you said,
COVID kind of shrunk my world,everybody's world, I think. And
then getting pregnant, I gotreally, really, really sick. I
had hyperemesis. I had COVID andRSV in my third trimester. And
then five and a half weeksbefore my due date, I was
(19:40):
hospitalized and had anemergency C section, was in the
hospital for a week, and Jackwas in the NICU for two weeks.
I didn't get to meet him forthirty six hours. It was like
everything they lost myplacenta. Everything that could
go wrong went wrong.
Keith (19:56):
Let's keep moving forward.
Leah (19:57):
Yeah. And I was mad. I was so mad, and my world was so
small, especially in thathospital room. I mean,
everything that mattered to mewas a problem. You know?
I I at this point, we hadplanned on keeping Kyler. When I
got pregnant, we spent a lot oftime in prayer and just talking
(20:18):
about, okay. So God's given usthis child. Maybe he's also
trying to give us this otherchild. We're not really sure
what that looks like, but itreally feels like we're supposed
to be parents at this point.
And we were at a point in thereunification adoption sort of
space where they were saying,okay. His mom is not improving.
(20:39):
Either you guys are gonna startthe adoption process, or we're
gonna move him to an adoptivehome. And so right before I got
pregnant, we went on a vacationand just Taylor and I. And
before we left for thatvacation, Kyler was gonna go to
a visitation with his mom.
And if it went well, he wasn'tgonna come back.
Doug (21:00):
Right. Right.
Leah (21:02):
So I remember that weekend, we went to a bunch of
parks. We met up with Taylor'sparents. We met up with my
parents and my brother, and,like, everybody kind of said
their goodbyes, but, like, maybenot. And that was so hard. And
then I got pregnant.
And so it just really felt likegod was saying, you know, like,
(21:25):
I want you to feel what it feelslike to almost not have this.
Not in a not in a mean way, butjust in a way that I would maybe
understand more of the gravityof it. And so we came go ahead.
Doug (21:39):
What would be your message to someone who's at that place
this weekend where the wherethey might take the foster kid
to the park to see his mom, andthat might be it? What what what
would you tell them today basedon what you know now?
Leah (21:54):
Hug them really hard and pray.
Keith (21:57):
Yeah.
Leah (21:58):
And there's other practical things you can do.
Like, you can try to stay incontact, but, like, there's so
many different burial variablesthat that can make that not
possible. But, honestly, prayerhas been prayer is really, like,
one of the only ways that I feellike I can cope with the foster
care system, but also kids ingeneral. Just anything out of
(22:19):
your control, and kids are verymuch out of your control, like,
no matter where they come from.
Doug (22:24):
I love that God can touch hearts. He can go through walls,
go through counties, just likethat. And so I think prayer only
makes sense.
Leah (22:33):
Yeah.
Doug (22:34):
The only way you could have communication with them.
Mhmm. So
Keith (22:39):
so we're at the park.
Leah (22:41):
Yeah. We're saying goodbye.
Keith (22:43):
We're saying goodbye, and then then spring forward for us
what happens then.
Leah (22:49):
Yeah. So we get back from vacation. I get pregnant. We
pray a lot and decide, okay. Ithink we're gonna keep him,
which is, like, kind of a crazyconversation to have.
Right? It's like, he's not adog. But it's like, are we gonna
keep him? Or we don't I mean,I'm like it's not a common
(23:10):
conversation that people have,you know, unless they're talking
about a dog.
Keith (23:14):
That's the thing. This is this is kind of an irrevocable
decision, though. Yeah. I onceyou say I do, it's like
Leah (23:20):
Right.
Keith (23:21):
Okay.
Leah (23:22):
And you're dealing with this child who, like, you feel
almost more of a responsibilityfor because I always felt this
connection with his mom that,like, I me and her are the only
two people who know what it'slike to be Kyler's mom.
Doug (23:35):
Wow.
Leah (23:36):
And so I felt this just level of, like, grace and love
toward her that I have not felttoward anyone else ever. And I
don't know that I would be ableto apply that to anyone else,
but she passed away last fallfrom an overdose, and that that
(24:01):
shook me more than I thought itwould for him. Because I
thought, you know, things aren'tthings aren't good now. She
can't do it now. But maybe shecan, or maybe she could be his
friend.
Maybe he can know where he camefrom. Maybe he can see how much
she really wanted to do it. Shewanted to love him. She or she
(24:22):
loves him, but she wanted to beable to provide that for him,
and I wanted him to see that.And so when she passed away,
just knowing that he would neverget that from her in the first
person was another layer ofresponsibility.
Right? Because then it's like,okay. Now it's my job too, not
only to be his mom, but to teachhim who his first mommy. That's
(24:43):
what we call her. His firstmommy is.
What a legacy. What all she didfor him. Because she raised it
for ten months, and that's notnothing. I've raised a baby from
zero to 10, and it's very hard.So and she did it with way less
support and with way less justcommunity.
And so I'm just very impressedby her, and I wish that she
(25:08):
could have stuck around. I wishthat she could have been more
part of our lives. But I'mgrateful that I have him, and
I'm grateful to her for that.
Keith (25:17):
I've I've had this and I ponder a lot of stuff, but one
of them was, like, if you if yougrew up in a dysfunctional
house, for example, you couldhave a bad attitude towards the
people that were leaving thatsituation. But one of the things
that occurred to me a few yearsago was whoever the parents
(25:37):
were, most likely they did thevery best they could at that
time with what they knew. And togive somebody grace to that
situation takes a little bit ofstepping back and thinking about
what what got them to where theywere. And it's really hard to
know, I think. It's really ahard thing to know.
But just giving people that muchspace is big deal.
Leah (25:56):
It's amazing how many people when I talk about our
experience with the foster caresystem and specifically with
Kyler, it's amazing how manypeople will say something
negative about her and thinkthat that's just they don't
understand that she aged out ofthe foster care system. She
never had a mom. Yeah. Well, Ican't imagine being a mom
(26:18):
without my mom. I almost lost mymom in 2019 to cancer, and I
think all the time about, like,oh my gosh.
What would have happened? Imean, I would have I don't know
what I don't know that we wouldhave either of our boys. I mean,
there's just so much that a momand a dad shouldn't have that
either, but there's so much thata mom offers that becomes who
(26:40):
you are.
Keith (26:42):
So so man, there's so much that we could go to. I
wanna I wanna make a shift ifyou're okay. Let me grab
something off my bookshelf here.But this, I've mentioned this in
a number of our podcasts, how tostop worrying and start living.
Found this book last summer, Ithink, and bought enough copies
(27:02):
that I could share with anybody.
So so and my kids have heard mesay this over and over that you
guys talk differently than I do.And so you you, being generally
people your age, have a phrasethat I never said, and I catch
myself saying it now. And I saidit differently. You say, I feel
(27:24):
like. And what I said in thatsame season was I think.
Does that make sense? And so itkinda helps me think differently
about younger people becauseyou've kind of been a mentor to
feel more than to think aboutthings. I'm not saying that
judgmentally. I'm just saying
Leah (27:45):
I agree.
Keith (27:45):
And so you told me you were willing to talk a little
bit. We don't have a ton
Doug (27:49):
of time to talk today. I bet we'd be going overtime a
little bit.
Keith (27:53):
Okay. Say anything? Well, we're just gonna the the this
topic, we need I I asked Lee ifshe'd come back in a few months
and go away so I could researcha little more. So our goal is
all we'll go a little over timebecause this topic, I think, is
a huge deal. Yeah.
But what were the letters youtexted me that you're willing to
talk about? Because I don't knowwhat it
Leah (28:11):
was. SSRI.
Keith (28:12):
SSRI. Do know what that is, Doug?
Leah (28:15):
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's an
antidepressant.
Keith (28:19):
I still don't know what it is. Okay. Be grateful that
you I know what that is. Right.And and I'm not saying I this
conversation is just to talkabout what are you doing with it
because this book, when I readit, I thought, my goodness, this
(28:39):
book answers a lot of questionsI had in 1992 that nobody had
talked to me about.
So so you if you're involvedwith an antidepressant, then I'm
taking it. You must have beendiagnosed as depressed.
Leah (28:53):
Yeah. About thirteen years ago. When I was 18 years old,
and my whole world was sort ofimploding from a family and
church scandal. They were like,you know what? Your problem is?
You're depressed. Okay. You havea brain condition.
Keith (29:08):
Okay. Is that how they said it? Or they said it some
other way? Or
Leah (29:11):
No. I mean, they said you you have a chemical imbalance in
your brain, so you need thesemedic you need these drugs.
Keith (29:17):
And and how how was that being expressed to you
personally? What were youexperiencing at that point?
Leah (29:24):
I had gone to a couple I will come to a Christian
counselor that I was not a fanof, so I stopped going to her.
And then I started going to apsychiatrist up in Lafayette
while I was at Purdue going tocollege. And she I think it was
our first meeting. I sort ofexplained what was going on just
(29:44):
situationally and then how Ifelt about it. And she said, I
think that this drug couldreally help you.
I don't remember if she said,you know, we can do this short
term or not, but it ended up notbeing short term. So but it was
thirteen years ago too. So mymemory is failing.
Keith (30:03):
So so what I think this is my opinion. What has evolved
generically is and what Carnegietalked about here was sometimes
you have to learn coping skills.And and so when when I was
talking about the the BurkinaFaso, the stuff that the people
were dealing with every day wasprobably I don't wanna minimize
(30:24):
what you were going through.Probably a lot worse than what
you were going through, but youonly had your small world to put
it in perspective. Right.
And so if you had that day to doover because you you were
telling you were telling metapering. Is that what you were
talking about?
Leah (30:41):
Yeah. So tapering off. So basically, since then, I've
added another medication andthen steadily increased for
thirteen years. Until now, I wasbasically maxed out. I couldn't
go anymore on those two drugs.
So the so we were either gonnaadd another one or what are we
gonna do? I mean, I have thisbrain condition. My I don't have
(31:02):
the right chemicals in my brain,so we have to do something. I
can't fix it.
Keith (31:06):
So you you you had a a traumatic event that kicked this
off. I know your mom battledcancer. We talked about your
house and all the volatilitythere. That's they used to have
a scale of the high stressevents in life. I think I would
think those three would bepretty high.
Leah (31:26):
My pregnancy and delivery was
Keith (31:28):
That well, having a child will be high. Yeah. And then
having a child that you may haveor may not have, that may not be
on that list, but it blows mybrain even to think about that.
So you've had all theseemotional things. And in the
midst of that, you're you'retapering?
Leah (31:45):
Well, in the midst of all that, I was increasing.
Keith (31:47):
Okay.
Leah (31:48):
But but yeah. Now I'm now I'm tapering. I started tapering
in June.
Doug (31:52):
Tape someone start doing that? Do you raise your hand and
say, I'm gonna start tapering?Or
Leah (31:57):
It depends on how involved your doctor is. I messaged my
doctor, and I said, hey. I wannastart tapering.
Doug (32:04):
Is that a good idea?
Leah (32:06):
I think it depends. I I was starting to feel nothing,
which and it's hard to describethat because I had been on it
for so long. Just in the lastcouple of months, I've started
to feel again. And so it's hardfor me to describe, like,
feeling nothing because it wasalmost like I I started feeling
(32:27):
nothing even more, which is ahard thing to put into words.
But I wouldn't recommend peoplejust taper off their
antidepressants willy nilly.
Doug (32:35):
Yeah.
Leah (32:36):
Don't do that. Yeah. So so And don't stop taking them. If
you just stop taking them, theywill cause serious brain damage.
They're very, very seriousdrugs, especially benzos, which
is not
Keith (32:47):
So so I don't even know, like, one of our kinda mantras
that give us think differently.I don't know how you even would
start that process. Like, how ifyou're feeling nothing, what
what happened that one dayyou're like, maybe I could feel
again. Like, I don't even knowhow you would stop thinking the
other way.
Leah (33:05):
I I really think it was God. I really just think the
spirit prompted me to startthinking differently. And the
the what I started thinkingdifferently about was these
medications, and I think thatwas the first step of once I
started to break down, then itwas like, okay. Now this
feeling's getting a little bitmore. Now I really feel like I
need to get off of these.
Oh, wait. Now I'm I'mdiscovering more things about
(33:27):
myself. Oh, wait. I can feel Ican feel this emotion now. And
so I'm like learning
Doug (33:32):
for anxious.
Leah (33:32):
Yeah. I'm learning more and more about myself, but the
first sort of spark, I don'tknow. I I again, I can only
credit that to god because whenyou're feeling nothing, it's
hard to feel anything. You know?Yeah.
Keith (33:45):
That's what I'm saying. And and I would think that there
would be this thought in yourhead. If I if I taper from this
and something goes off therails, what am I gonna do now? I
don't know if that was a thoughtyou've processed. Or
Leah (34:03):
I wrote this down the other night, actually, and
shared it with Taylor. I wasjournaling, but I said so SSRIs
are they could be numbing. I'veheard them described that way,
and that's a very act it's notfor everybody, but it's very
accurate for me. And anotherthing that helped me when I
started this tapering journey isbecause of how some of my
(34:25):
medications were formulated, Ihad to go on a twice a day
regimen because I was taking anextended release capsule, and I
couldn't cut it. And so I'm,like, at home cutting like, I I
have a pill binder in my bag.
I'm cutting you know, I'm takingdown just milligrams a day to
try to get off of these safely.But I couldn't do that with one
of my medications. So I had tomessage my doctor, and I said,
(34:47):
hey. I wanna taper. Can you sendme a prescription for this
immediate release version?
My doctor's not involved in mylife, so she was like, sure.
Sent it. No big deal. She'slike, good luck with your taper.
So what happened is I got reallystrict about when I was taking
my meds because I was takingthem twice a day now.
Not realizing that I had beenreally bad at taking my meds
(35:08):
before, only taking them, like,every other day, every third
day. And so all of a sudden, wason way more drugs than I even
had been before I wanted to take
Keith (35:16):
them. And
Leah (35:17):
my emotions were gone. I felt nothing. I mean, Taylor and
I would be driving in the car,and I'm just like a zombie. And
so I felt like that was ablessing in disguise because it
it confirmed, like, okay. I wantmore of these now, and I'm
feeling way less.
So you started to up and keepscore. Yeah. So I wrote this
down the other night. I alwaysassumed that turning my feelings
(35:42):
up would be horrible. Becausewhen I turned them down, it was
because they were horrible.
But it's almost like in the lastthirteen years, someone has
changed the channel. And so I'mturning them up, and it's good.
And I wrote, it's not that myfeelings have only increased.
(36:02):
They've expanded. And so myemotional vocabulary is
exploding.
I felt joy and gratitude andhope multiple times lately. So I
know it's not a fluke because Ican be very cynical and be like,
well, you know, like, it'sbecause it's sunny outside or
something. You know? But it'slike it's it's becoming
consistent. I'm driving in thecar and and noticing the trees
(36:23):
and just, like I'll find that Ithat I have a little smile on my
face for no reason.
And it's, like, so magical. It'scool to feel things.
Keith (36:36):
What do you know now that I we were talking yesterday.
It's magical to feel things.What do you think? Is that is
that our title? I mean, magical.
Yeah. I think
Doug (36:44):
that sounds pretty good. Yeah. I mean,
Leah (36:47):
we'll let you know how it goes.
Keith (36:48):
It's been magical to hang out with Billy, and I hope you
all enjoyed our time together.And I I'm glad we have you back
because I I'd really love tojump into this and talk to it
specifically for you, see whereyou're at and help other people
that might wanna talk and learnabout it as well.
Leah (37:03):
Absolutely. Anytime.
Keith (37:04):
You guys have a great weekend, and thanks for hanging
with us today. We'll see yousoon.
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