THE AFRICA FORUM- RUNNING AFRICA -KABU MA'AT KHERU FOR -11-24-2024

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I want to be representing a man for Uptown TV.

(00:07):
Do you understand?
We're going to talk about regarding Putin's final warning to the reckless West.
And we're going to talk about that with Cuomo Pianca just after 9.30 or thereabouts.
He's going to be joining us back on the phone lines.
But lots happening in Ghana.
And we want to go live to Ghana.

(00:28):
Do we have our sister Tendayi on the phone lines?
We're going to be live to Ghana for a little while.
Just to bring us up to date with the good news coming out of Ghana.
Wow. Good news regarding citizens of the ship.
And we have on the phone lines, I think, my sister Tendayi.

(00:52):
Tendayi Mwamini Shenzirafudel.
She's live and in living color in Ghana, West Africa.
My sister, how are you?
I am blessed and highly favored.
And just awesome.

(01:13):
I'm so happy to hear you.
Listen, before we go to the good news resitizenship,
I know that you are on location right now because as we speak,
there is a really big event happening right there in Ghana on the ground.
I think I'm hearing in the background, I'm hearing drumming.

(01:35):
Am I right?
You hear the drumming.
I'm trying to go up a little way.
Okay.
All right, so you're actually right now at the annual celebration of the
ancestors of the African ancestral wall.
What exactly is that, Sister Tendayi?

(01:58):
Well, every year, Jerry's here, he's been teaching young people about our
ancestors all over and what they've done and everything.
And so he's teaching them, he's been teaching them.
And so now the young people now are teaching us.
They actually are putting on like a whole play and they're explaining the
different kingdoms and how large they were, who the people were,

(02:22):
and then doing the drumming of the nation.
This is awesome to see these young babies knowing our story with power.
And I love the theme because it says,
let the ancestors speak and watch the students teach.
That's a theme, isn't it?
Yes.
Yes, that's a theme.

(02:44):
Yeah.
Yes.
All right.
And this is the sixth annual.
Where exactly is the ancestral wall?
It's in Cromprance, which is about an hour from Accra.
Right.
And what format is this taking?
So the students are literally, let the ancestors speak.

(03:07):
I'm a student.
The students are literally the ones leading today or they're the ones
communicating with the elders.
No, they are doing everything.
The students are, they were coming.
Fred Hampton, Felix Moku, Nehanda, Martin Luther King, Hatshepsut.

(03:28):
They are actually acting out these parts and they are speaking for them
and they're speaking in their language and it's like, it's awesome.
And then they show us where the big kingdoms, how far the kingdoms were.
I came last year and I didn't even understand how big these kingdoms were.
Yes.
Because you know, these folks chopped them all up.

(03:51):
And we've done so much and our babies are learning it.
Wow.
And I give thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that.
Are we able to hear anything from there?
I know you've walked away from where everything is happening,
but are we able to hear any of what's happening there?
Yeah, not yet because they just got their musical right now.

(04:12):
Okay. Okay.
The children, I see them just now starting to walk out.
Okay. Okay. And I can hear that sound in the background.
All right.
And the big news coming out of Ghana and so this is a double whammy,
a double celebration because the big news coming out of Ghana
is that Ghana has granted citizenship to returning Africans

(04:35):
who have been in Ghana for some time.
How long? This happened on Thursday, right?
It happened Tuesday.
Tuesday.
Tuesday.
All right. Tell us about that, Mama Tendayi,
because do you have to be in Ghana for a while and how did that work?
This was actually President's decree
and you did not have to be in Ghana for a while.

(04:58):
Some people, like myself, we have residency.
Some people didn't have residency. They just heard about it.
And they came over and they said, I want my citizenship.
So this was a President's decree.
And so all the different things that you needed before to get your,
to be naturalized, you didn't have to have it this time.

(05:20):
You know, there were a few things you had to do, fingerprints,
and you had to do background checks.
You didn't have to do that.
Yes.
But all the other stuff, we didn't have to do that.
You didn't have to have residency.
You just had to be from, you had to be from what we call the hub, right?
These are historically, folks who were historically taken away.
So no white folks can't say, well, I was born in Ghana.

(05:43):
No, no, no, no, no, no.
You, your people weren't taken away.
These are no.
And so we had 524 of us.
And it was all of us was African descendants, truly African descendants.
No, no, play, play business.
Five hundred and thirty four.
Twenty four.
Forty four.
Wow.
I saw those videos that you sent and posted.

(06:09):
And believe me, I mean, I just got chills and goose pimples and my head just kept raising and raising and raising.
This is this is really phenomenal.
Was it was it a long process?
Because I know the president had announced this was a pretty long process.
And how did this come to be?

(06:30):
But because there's so many, everybody has to be interested.
We're losing you.
We're losing.
We're losing your bit there.
And I was starting.
OK, can you hear me now?
Oh, yeah, that's much better.
OK.
Yeah. So everybody had to do, you know, background checks, interviews and fingerprints and stuff like that.

(06:57):
So it took a little while.
Well, I'm a little while from September to now.
So, yeah, yeah.
Timber. Yeah.
To the 19th of November.
That was long for me because I was so ready.
I was just going to say to you, Tim, I thought long.

(07:18):
When I started and I knew what happened, I was like, I need it now.
Yeah.
OK. I, you know, I open the paper up and my name was there.
My daddy's name, my grandma's name, my mother's name was there.
Oh, my gosh.
So I can just imagine, I mean, how many how many or do you know?

(07:41):
Let me know if you tell us if you know the different places, as you say, how that that that person came from and how many were there from Jamaica?
Do you know?
Oh, my gosh.
So most of them from America, the next big group is from Jamaica.
And a couple of from other people.
There's a few and you have few from UK, but most of us are from either Jamaica or America.

(08:08):
And we hear we hear seriously.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I love that.
I know this is something that, as you know, that we've been advocating for for the very longest time, the right to return on the right to citizenship and so on.
Is this within a wider context or is it just for this group?

(08:31):
What does it mean for those who are?
Yeah.
This is actually the third they have done.
They did like 100 saw in two 19 when they did their first when they called it the return and then in 22 they did 100 more.
But this time was five and it was like, OK, we got to bring our people back home.
And we have been advocating, you know, we have, you know, the African-American Association, the Caribbean's American Caribbean.

(08:58):
All right. Did I lose you?
OK, good. I'm hearing you now. I'm hearing you now.
Oh, I'm hearing you.
And advocating. No, no, no.
We need to come home.
We need to come home and we need to be home.
One thing to come here is the thing when, you know, is what it when mama said, come home.
The mama's open her arms to you. It's a total different kind of thing.

(09:22):
Yes. Yes. So, yeah, we are.
We are all excited.
So to that tomorrow, I'm working on get my I have I have a non-citizen gamma card.
So tomorrow I'll get my citizen guy.
Yeah. And next day I'm working on my passport.
Yeah. Yeah. This is this is this is yeah. This is great.

(09:47):
This is really great news.
I'm hoping that, you know, over time and we see what Ghana is doing, we're hoping that over time it is automatic.
You know, you come in and there's a process that is that is automatic.
But at least there is a there's a start.
And you're saying this is going on from 2019.
We did talk about it in 2022.
And then here we are now in in twenty four.

(10:09):
So for those who are in Ghana now who who have returned, but they weren't in this batch.
What is the process for them? Do you know?
I'm not sure yet. But, you know, we have an election coming up in a couple of weeks.
So they actually the old president who was here before who started this was under the was under the MVP.

(10:32):
So he's he's looking like he's going to come back in. So I think it won't be long before it's going to happen again.
OK. You know, and I want to open the doors.
Other countries are not opening their doors. You know, we have to bring our folks back to.

(10:53):
Yeah. Yeah. We still see Ghana as a as a the gateway to the continent of Africa.
Understanding that the continent of Africa is, you know, we're talking about 50 countries.
I mean, each country individual.
And while you have blocks that it is what it is in terms of the different countries and the different policies,

(11:14):
North Africa by itself is a whole different kettle of tea.
And then you have West Africa, East Africa.
So there's no I know we say one Africa, one nation, but really and truly that's a misnomer.
So it's not now. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. So is it is it is Ty B.

(11:37):
Come with you.
I can't get him come down, but he was there.
Everybody's so excited. I know.
And what we have now, there's some folks here who just came here visiting.
And so they want to know everything.
They want to know where they are.
Okay. So I'm going to let you go.
But but any final word because you Jamaica is listening, as you know, and not just Jamaica.

(12:01):
We're all over the world.
So any final word to our sisters and brothers who want to come home are thinking of coming home.
We should look here.
Don't let me stop you.
And don't wait to this.
Well, that thing is done.
It's never going to get done.
Oh, Mama is calling you.
Come home.
Thank you so much, Mama.

(12:23):
Ten die. Thank you so much, my sister.
I'm a soon come look for you.
Look here. This is this is this is brilliant news.
This is great news.
We love this.
I know sister P must be listening.
I remember when sister piece stood up at in the in the conference center in 1992.
I think it was along with Eileen Jifford.
And they made this call.
This is that this that has happened.

(12:45):
They made this call in the strongest of terms.
And here we are now.
How many years after about Syria?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My sister, my sister.
Once again, congratulations.
And we'll keep in touch with you most definitely.

(13:07):
We love what we see happening.
What we think happens.
I'll keep you keep your breast.
What's going on?
I love that.
Thank you so much, Mama.
Ten die.
Live in Ghana.
Thank you so much, my sister, where the Ghanaian government has just granted citizenship again to you had the number five hundred and forty four returning Africans from the African diaspora who have returned to Ghana.

(13:33):
And they've been doing this in batches as you heard when in 19, 20, 22 and and now and what we are what we're expecting.
And I'm sure it's going to happen at some time is that this will be automatic.
You know, and we've tried the African Union, but the African Union is a whole lot of kettle of tea, isn't it?

(13:55):
So the African Union is controlled by the West and and there are many different different agendas within the African Union that it is now.
And it's important to do much.
We see them with the Africa Continental Free Trade Agreement recently, and even that is smoke and mirrors, you know, even that is a three card game.

(14:26):
And I say that and I'm sure I know I can defend that.
Continental Africa is what it is and understanding, though, our place in Africa and as Africans in the world of of Kwame Nkrumah, sorry for Dr.
Kwame Nkrumah.
We're Africans, not because we're born in Africa.

(14:50):
We're Africans because Africa was born in us.
And then you look at South Africa, where apartheid has returned in full and bright and living colors.
And we want to see how that plays out within the bricks.
That's a whole other situation.
And you look at East Africa, which is holding, holding strain and resisting settler colonization and new colonization and so on.

(15:20):
And we look at countries like Mali and Burkina Faso and Senegal and and you know, some of those within the so-called francophone.
We hate to say that, but just so you understand, Togo Benin and so on, others that need to join that revolution or Renaissance, if you will, because we talk about the African Renaissance.

(15:45):
Then you look at North Africa.
For us, we're locked out as bearing Africans, bearing Jamaican nationalities.
So I've been trying to get to the.
I've been trying to get to the.

(16:08):
Minister of.
The Minister of Foreign Affairs.
With the situation in North Africa.
And we have tried many, many different ways with no response.
And the last response we got was that.
They would not officially comment.

(16:31):
And, you know, I don't even know what to make of it, but I'm going to try.
Maybe I should say I should have been saying this publicly to.
Come in at Johnson Smith, the minister that we've been trying.
If not to get you in the space, but to talk to somebody from the ministry and to get to get some idea.

(16:57):
As to.
What is the policy? What is Jamaica's policy regarding North Africa?
What is a reason for Jamaica and Jamaicans, Africans in Jamaica to be locked out, literally locked out of North Africa?
I might be might have been the last one.

(17:20):
To have gone to Egypt.
Without well, it was a great hassle, but let's through in the in the old way, if you will, and it wasn't even quite the old way.
So now.
Tunisia, for example, there's just no way to get there.

(17:41):
I have never I find this in twenty twenty four.
It is just beyond belief that for us in Jamaica.
And I'm a traveler.
I've been to almost every continent, if not every continent, I've traveled, I've been traveling all my life.
I.
So now I'm second guessing myself.

(18:04):
Who does one Jamaicans one with a Jamaican passport get to Tunisia?
Because Jamaicans need a visa to Tunisia and Tunisia tells us that first to get a visa to go there, we have to go to Ecuador.
And Ecuador tells us that first to get a visa to go to Tunisia through Ecuador, we have to send our pass, take our passport to Ecuador and be there for three months.

(18:37):
So if you want to go to Tunisia, you have to leave Jamaica, go to Ecuador, stay in Ecuador for three months and you know, must get it.
You know, you know, must get it.
I see my sister Tendai calling me, so let me take a break and make unbearable medical bills for your child.
So you know, I was talking about North Africa and after that link with Mama Tendai.

(19:00):
And so the phone rang and it was Mama Tendai calling back.
So I said, no, no, she's calling me back. This is important.
So I made that break, went to the phone and I heard no, no, no, this is Mama Marimba.
So Mama Marimba is there in Ghana, right beside Mama Tendai.

(19:21):
This is just I have goose pimples all over my body. It's not going to work this way.
Mama Marimba, how are you my sister? Greetings.
Because I have brought Nana Thomas Sankara here to be ancestral wall.
So that's who I am right now. Yes.

(19:47):
So we need that African revolutionary spirit to energize, inspire and teach the children.
So we have a new generation of African revolutionaries.
And how important is this activity that is underway, this ritual, if you will, that is underway right now?

(20:13):
As you said, Baba Thomas Sankara, Baba Patrice Lumumba just came right into the space.
I'm just going to tell you that. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yes.
Let me explain where we are. It is the African ancestral wall.

(20:36):
And Baba Jerry Johnson has built this wall in a compound of ninety two portraits of our warrior ancestors.
And the portraits are he had them commissioned by different artists.

(21:02):
We're here in Ghana in prom prom.
The portraits are about maybe four feet by I would say two or three feet.
They're quite large. There are 92 of them.
When you first come in, Nana Garvey is facing you along with Nana and Krumah.

(21:34):
And then they go through out you walk the walk.
We call it walking the wall.
And they have been done. OK, so stay right where you are.
Because I lost you for a minute there.

(21:56):
Nana Winnie Mandela and Nana France Crest-Welsing.
So those that makes ninety two.
So let's say homage to our ancestors and our warrior ancestors.

(22:17):
And then we have this fourth, the ongoing fight against colonialism, neo colonialism and those who built for African power and African unity.

(22:41):
So the wonderful thing is that Baba Jerry Johnson did this for the children and for the children in the surrounding area.
He goes to the schools and gets the children and brings them to the wall and teaches them about these ancestors.

(23:10):
And on this special day that that that you are calling a ritual.
It is a celebration of the children actually become these ancestors.
And they act that out for the community.
And Africans here come from the surrounding area and a tribal region and so forth.

(23:40):
And it's about to get started. I'm going to let you go.
But I just quickly take a minute before it takes just a 30 second before you go to talk about with a circle being broken.
Oh, definitely. Somebody just brought here to us.

(24:01):
One of the original edition copies of the original edition that was actually we put it in book form in 1988.
But what we have here today are some copies of the new and expanded edition, which we have just recently published.

(24:32):
And it has some special. All right. I think the children will be dealing with today called praise song to the ancestors.
It's just something that I wish everybody could have. Right.
I know it's very it's reader friendly. How can it also be spiritual and where is it for African revolution?

(25:02):
Where is it available? Let the circle be unbroken.
And it is the place where I originally how should we put it?
I'm going to point the turn my offer for this publication. So this is where it came out.
I never, ever thought that it would become a term that everybody, you know, I know.

(25:29):
Well, as you did, as you did with your Google, as you did with your Google,
I'm going to let you go because I know the event is starting. But we'll keep in touch. I really, really totally just over the moon for this conversation.
This conversation was important. Thanks to you.
Actually, there's more time.

(25:53):
So if there are questions that you have that you think your audience would be interested in.
For one thing, I'm thinking it's extremely important that we watch developments that are happening now in Africa.
And to me, as I see it, you know, I'm reading in Krumah.

(26:17):
I'm reading Check Out the Joke, which everybody needs to get his book Black Africa.
And I'm watching Burkina, Molly, Nicheir.
And I'm thinking about in Krumah's term, the embers, what does he call it, embers of, you know, of the Revolutionary Fire.

(26:44):
In other words, we need and then I want to tell you, Mama, that we did we have a newspaper called the African World,
which I need to be trying to get throughout the African world.
We've been doing it now. This will be the ninth volume coming out in May.

(27:08):
But we did a special edition this year and that report and it's actually the first time we've done it online.
And it was inspired by the young people taking revolutionary action in Kenya,
who in turn were encouraged and influenced by Africans in, you know, Burkina and the Sahel group.

(27:44):
So that is something which I would want everybody to get.
And it is online. It's the African world and it is the war report.
I'm trying to think about. Oh, I know. I know you are in touch with and close to one of my sons.

(28:08):
Yes. And that is Shakira. Yes.
Who has Kim Bunga media. Yes. And if people go on Kim Bunga media, they can get the war report.
All right. Brilliant. And I'll reach out to Shakira too so that we can have a quick conversation.

(28:32):
If not today, then next week. Yes. That'll be excellent.
All right. So I'm in here to the wall. Oh, brilliant. The the finally the the book itself.
Let the circle be in broken. Is it available also online?
Well, you know, I encourage people I really do not like Amazon at all.

(28:57):
I feel like they, you know, they absolutely exploit us and we we get dependent on them
and think that's the only place we can get things.
But there is a brother who you may know, Baba Nati, of African world books.
Yes. Out of Baltimore. He is the publisher of the book.

(29:23):
All right. So we made a note.
If people get to they go online, African world books dot com, I think.
Or African. I think it's actually African world word.
You can try that. But if you Google it, you know, you can find everything.

(29:44):
Of course, we'll do that. We don't want to go. Of course. Yes. It's available.
All right. But we have another link with outside of Kumasi.
So we'll take that. But we'll keep in touch with you as usual.
Thank you so much. Thank you. And have a good one today.

(30:06):
Wonderful to talk to you. Love you. Love you. Love you.
Love you more. All right. My sisters, Mama Marimba, Mama Tendai at the ancestral wall in Ghana.
The activities are happening today.
By the way, you heard Mama Marimba reference their the maafah.
Now, there are two words that we use in the African centered community.

(30:31):
And one is the maafah when we talk about the transatlantic.
That's what they call it. The triangular trait, isn't it? Hmm. OK.
Well, Mama Marimba tells us it's a maafah. And when we say maafah, we understand exactly how that did go.
Just the word alone tell you how that it go. And it didn't just don't tell you what happened.

(30:55):
It also prescribes for you what you need to do. Understanding the maafah.
Special guest on line from Ghana this morning.
And so listen to me. Ghana is where we're centering this morning.
Hanif Okaasi is in Ghana, a returning African, along with his family in Ghana.

(31:22):
And we so he's not at the ancestral wall is outside of about an hour or so.
Outside of Kumasi.
All right. Let me know what's happening with Hanif Okaasi.
And we will take that call.

(31:46):
Also, we were scheduled to speak much earlier with.
We were we were scheduled to speak earlier with Blackmaster, who was in the studio last week and is now in Ghana.
He just landed literally gone up. So we wanted to make a quick link with him in Ghana.

(32:07):
Because you know, the family coming together and we're doing what we need to do as far as the continent of Africa is concerned.
And so we're going to make this link right now.
We made this connection with our next very special guest on line.
Hanif Okaasi, as I said before, has returned to Ghana repatriated, if you will, with his family.

(32:31):
So Hanif morning greetings greetings and salutations.
Yes, you're sounding loud and clear.
We're in. So we just linked with with the two lovely sisters, Mama Marimba, Annie and Mama Tendai at the ancestral wall because there's this activity happening.

(32:53):
But it's far from you. I'm sure in another part of Ghana.
Where exactly in Ghana are you?
We are in Ashanti land, OK, which is one of the bigger states.
We are amongst the Ashanti people.
You know, we're about an hour away from Kumasi, which is the capital.

(33:18):
But we are in the countryside.
We live in a village.
And and when you say you're in the countryside in a village, are you deep village or just on the outskirts of of big bad Kumasi?
Well, big good Kumasi. No, no, no.
It is like, how do you call this now?
Like I see that a small rural urban center. OK.

(33:43):
But we are really deep village. I live in deep village.
You know, it is near these urban centers which tend to be fairly large.
What they consider to be villages are like small towns or Jamaica, big towns.
Yeah. Yeah. So I was saying that you have repatriated.
You're literally gone home to Ghana.

(34:06):
I'm sure that we had a conversation with you on air when you were planning.
Right. Didn't we? Or was it off?
We didn't talk. We spoke to each other. We didn't talk on air.
OK. So talk to us a little bit about that process, Hanif.
What was it like from decision to landing in Ghana?
Well, the first thing is the decision.

(34:29):
You got to make your mind going and it doesn't matter what you're going to go where you're going.
Right. It took us about nine months.
We put everything in place. You know, we set a date to have left and we actually bought tickets.
So anytime, couldn't matter what happened, we were going to leave.

(34:51):
You have a credit ticket in your hand.
I think it's very expensive.
Someone booked my tickets and we didn't go through the Western countries.
We went through Panama and we went through Dutch Holland.

(35:13):
OK. OK.
But somebody actually booked the best tickets for us.
The shortest route.
OK. So and I remember one of the challenges you had was, all right, so here we're planning to do this.
How do we not just move our bodies, but so as to cut down on costs to take our own things there.

(35:35):
And so you one of the things I can send you was shipping.
How did that work out?
Well, yes, it worked out fairly well again, kind of costly.
OK. But we ship to about four, about 200 kilograms of stuff, our stuff, mean like our clothes, our paintings, all of that.
Some for tools, you know, really, really made a serious move.

(35:59):
Yes.
And you made sure we made sure we took what we would want to live here for the period.
What kind of what kind of research?
Because you said took what you wanted.
Did you know that you you were considering a rural area as opposed to say across?
And how did that determine?

(36:21):
This thing is strange because I have been doing some work for a rural area for about 20, 18, 20 years ago.
Somebody came to me and asked me if I could set a plan for a rural village.
So I had contacts with that friend what asked me to do the work.
So I had already had a space in mind because I'd already done some work on planning for that village.

(36:49):
So I knew where I was coming to.
And my friend who, you know, who asked me to do the work, got me in contact with his friend who lives here in Ghana.
OK, I was actually going to someone.
How important is that?
Now that you're there, how important is that kind of a connection?
Knowing who you're going to or having someone that you're going to.

(37:10):
That that is why the key to all of this.
OK, like any one of these changes, you're going somewhere new and you're going to move there for a long period.
You know, you have to do all you have to have somebody there who will kind of shepherd you during the first period of your living space.

(37:32):
We have been very lucky that we have had and still have people around us who actually look after us.
You know, we became we met a young man and his family and we kind of adopted them and they adopted us.
And whereas I'm serious, we were at the weapon.

(37:53):
Yeah, this place is kind of transactional.
OK, you're a foreigner coming here like any other third world country, a foreigner going there and you're considered a foreigner.
You're a foreigner going there.
You have to pay your way and you'll be overcharged.
So you go there. So make a backup.
You're considered a foreigner.

(38:15):
Yes, you are.
They call you a bro.
Yeah, a bro.
But they're not my my wife is considered a shanty.
They look at her and she's a shanty and she tells me no, I'm a Jamaican.
No, you're a shanty.
They tell us to go here and there and get your name and go to your auntie's down there.
Yes.
So so so so for her, she's not a booney.

(38:38):
She is a shanty.
She's a shanty.
So she's not having the same experience that you're having at all.
But it is look, look, it is experience.
I don't take it very seriously.
Yes.
OK.
I mean, apart from the fact that when you go shopping, you have to be very careful how you shop.
But apart from that, I don't take it seriously.

(39:01):
I've been, you know, I've lived all over the place.
So that it doesn't count for me.
Yeah.
And I think as you talk about that, what it reminds me of is when our own people who have say lived in England for 20, 25 years and come home, that we will sell turn around and call them foreigners.
So I suppose the same as similar kind of thing.
Similar kind.
And then you are you're not exactly up there.

(39:23):
If I went to the Ivorians, right?
I mean, I think it's east.
They look more like the skin.
OK.
Yeah.
Very into colorism.
No, we understand.
But Africa has many shades of colors and many types of phenotype.

(39:50):
So remember, the thing is that every tribe has a different DNA.
And this is you know, this is so critical to talk about, you know, because I said something this morning that, you know, I'm getting a lot of text on it already that even as sometimes we say one Africa, one nation, but it really isn't one Africa.
It's a group of ethnicities and you understand all the tribal ethnic group and you can identify each other. That's why your wife is a shanty and you would coming up from you would be more to the east.

(40:21):
Yeah.
And then you look there are Muslims here and different tribes here.
And then they are shanty.
I think they are the biggest group here.
They are the biggest group here.
And they are very proud people, extremely proud.
Wow.
I know.

(40:42):
Really proud people.
Yeah.
What if anything has really surprised you pleasantly?
No.
It's not what you said.
It's just how you said it.

(41:08):
Listen to me.
Um and then apologize.
Do not apologize.
And I have lived with all kinds of people all throughout the earth.
I know.
I know.
But for the first time in my life I feel comfortable in my space.
The only time I say this is when I go to the capital.

(41:31):
And I say one and two, they are tourists.
You know what I mean?
And if you have a war, you have a war with a black man.
If you have a problem, your problem is a black man.
If somebody is a rabbi, he is a black man.
So therefore, color no matter.
Color no matter again.
Yes.
Wow.

(41:52):
And that is what gives you a smile like me who live all over the place.
It gives me peace in my soul.
And so our listeners understand without saying too much, you know, you have lived in Europe for many years, right?
And all Europe too.
All Europe, all Asia, America live here and there.
Yes.
So when you say this, you're coming, there's a lot of context to this.

(42:17):
Yes, ma.
I live with all kinds of people, all kinds of nationality, all kinds of races.
For the first time in my life, I come and go somewhere and I feel totally comfortable in my space.
Yeah.
What are some of the major challenges for persons who are considering making this trek?

(42:38):
All right. First thing, expect nothing.
Africa don't owe you nothing.
The African people don't owe you nothing.
And the better, more, more, you see, like, just like how you are when you have Americans or you have the people read in a Jamaican diaspora, come on.
People expect them to give.
The same kind of way the African expect you coming from the West to give.

(42:59):
So don't come with expectations of them going to bow down on your feet and give nothing.
They'll more take from you.
That is it.
So it reminds us then of what Marcus said in terms of going forward to Africa, which is to you go with something, you go with you.
You are you're going with knowledge or you're going with skills or you're going to help to rebuild that kind of thinking, not to not to go take from Africa, but to help to give back to Africa.

(43:34):
Or transactionalism.
Even just simply to live.
Then you do not expect anything.
But then Africa is a land of possibilities.
The land of our Gajjo.
Walking down the road and part of my street is unpaved.

(43:55):
When you look at the road, you see gold flakes.
So you walk on streets of gold.
Yes.
The chief say is it too much?
Everyone is the old Ashanti gold mine.

(44:16):
Goodness.
Then can't do anything.
So when it comes to some Chinese people, I know they are commanding those those mines.
So so so have you been there yet to the old gold mine?
No, but that's what that's particularly where I live near.
I mean, OK, it's part of the the the the the land.
We're going to.

(44:37):
Ah, it's not some way ago.
Yes.
Pardon me.
It's some way you live.
I understand.
Sand.
Yeah.
You move on sand to build house.
You just you just take out the vegetation.
You just buy a piece of land, take out the vegetation and some places you see white sand like white beach sand.

(44:58):
You just take up a tractor, take it up and carry it to go sell it.
Yeah.
And that's building material and they do in Sievert.
What's the situation in terms of land and buying or owning and even building?
If you're buying land, especially in the countryside, you have to make sure you buy to to the chief.

(45:21):
They have to make sure the chief is honest.
I'm working with you.
You can't go and just buy land from somebody like that, like, you know, you make up.
But even you, the things you wouldn't do in Jamaica when you buy land, you can't come here and do them.
Right.
Right.
You know, you would buy a piece of land and you don't buy the right way.
And then you find out, say, somebody come and say, not female.

(45:43):
And you can't get the title forever and ever.
Amen.
Because you never do it right.
Amen.
Right.
So if you buy land, you can make sure you do it legally.
And then like we, you know, when we're going to buy, we have the chief because we do some work for the chief.
We have the same kind of protectors.

(46:04):
And we make sure we're going through the chief to do these things.
Yes.
So you have to go to the same energy maker.
You can't go and get somebody money for land.
No.
And thank you for putting it because sometimes.
And I know a lot of people have done this going into not just Ghana, but parts of Africa where you even buy the land before you reach, but the land already sold to six, seven different people.

(46:31):
So there are ways to do things and laws to follow.
Talk to us about the role of a chief in the village, Hanni.
The chief is the beholder in the village.
And the chief is, is the, when I've seen the councils, when chief come and the council beholder, everybody come in and they're sitting down.
And what are the problems of them tell the chief and the chief have to make a decision right there and then.

(46:56):
They are in can defer the decision, but instead of come and make a decision.
So they are, if the chief is there, the village now go to rise up.
Then the chief is hardworking.
Yes.
Then the village will move.
The chief have a vision for the village.
The village will move.

(47:19):
One of the things that we spoke about of era that I want you to, you know, talk a little bit about is how disputes are settled and the role of the chief in all of that.
Just to build upon that a bit more.
I know, I believe you and me, I know the chief is all powerful.

(47:40):
In the village, the chief have the right to make decisions.
Right.
Now, I don't know how it overlaps with the general legal system.
So I don't know in terms of the court system.
I don't know how the chief's powers in the village interacts with that kind of feedback into the into the legal system.

(48:05):
But you see the but the chief is powerful.
Very powerful people.
Very powerful.
Do we have anything in Jamaica that's similar?
No.
Probably the Maroon chiefs are the same kind of thing.
They are shanty.
They just remember Maroon people are basically shanty.

(48:26):
You know, but the leaders of the Maroons are basically shanty.
See?
But they have a way for running them things.
No, that's the nearest thing we'll have to figure out.
But listen to me, for me, Africa is good.
Africa is great.
Like say Africa is a land of possibilities.

(48:48):
You know, see, Africa is a land where you feel serious about life when you come here.
So if you work hard, you will make it.
You know, see, it depends on what it is again, you know.
Because it is not just for the money and fame.
But yeah, yeah, you are right then see me, you can make a peace of mind.
It depends on what it is.

(49:10):
Is there, I have you, I know you, how long have you been there?
Is it a year yet?
No, I don't know which year yet.
We said earlier that, you know, we've considered.
It's over a year.
That Ghana still remains for so many of us a gateway to Africa.
Are you feeling that considering the borders, et cetera, et cetera?

(49:33):
Yeah, I will tell you what, for us, we are closer to these people.
So when you go and simulate it, it's what comes to come and simulate it.
And then you can move forward and to other places.
Maybe the one going next door will have a clean up also.
Things are moving less.
Right.
You know, them kind of people are trying to break the chains.

(49:56):
They're trying to break the governmental changes, the governance changes that are needed in Africa.
They understand some stuff.
That's the place I really want to go see.
And part of my people come from this.
You know what I'm saying?
So I really want to go and look at this and see how.
Because again, somebody like me coming from hell, you know, I don't want really.

(50:22):
I don't want to be a millionaire.
Yeah.
So my aim is to kind of.
Since we do, you know, try to give out and try to spread the knowledge, the technical knowledge and the spiritual knowledge.
And if I don't know, I don't know if you want to take a minute to talk about your own personal technical knowledge and how that can feed back into the village and other villages in Ghana.

(50:49):
I'll give you an example.
I was some I work with some people, right.
And I'll send them in the same year.
And he says, as the houses, I said, they cannot be a pretty, but they need a little more, you know, finishing on them.
But other houses I see.
How can I help?

(51:10):
Can I help to build a school?
Construction school.
So I think that to say this, that the.
Skill set that is needed here, then is in over there in other ways that can help like some more like heart.
The transfer piece of heart commercial technical and give them the culture in a broader level.

(51:37):
So that is there are like I said, this place of in this place is a low low cost economy.
Things are if you think about in terms of things are cheap here, they pay you cheaply also.
The wages are cheap, but the living is cheap.
The cost of living.

(51:58):
You understand, right.
So you don't need up on money to survive. And the other thing about this that makes it so interesting is that you have.
That's what I see.
Ninety five to ninety eight percent of the businesses are small businesses.
I mean, small businesses.

(52:19):
I'm a ten foot container, a twenty foot container business.
And everybody specializes in what they specialize in.
This is the dressmaker.
That's the one who sells the drinks.
That's the one who sells food.
The market is there.
And by the way, in this case, I agree that the towns, the small towns around you, you can get a market every day.

(52:40):
Street market.
Wow.
Yeah.
We'll soon come.
We'll come.
Now, seriously, this is this sounds good.
And I'm getting a lot of people writing in just texting in just contacting me right throughout these interviews at Ghana this morning.
And I'm listening to what you're saying about persons who are interested and just saying this is phenomenal.

(53:07):
This is excellent news.
If you want to come, make sure you have money for last year.
I want to know what I look like.
How much money that ballpark.
I'm not making you a deal.
We live in a house.
We go through the living room and read the big house and it cost me like twenty eight thousand Jamaican dollar a month.

(53:32):
This house costs probably two hundred thousand Jamaican dollars.
You know, Jamaica.
Does that give you an idea?
Yeah.
Give you an idea.
So the rent, you pay rent for a year.
You buy this here, you pay rent, you pay probably.
So you pay two thousand dollars a year.
You have big house, massive house.

(53:54):
So you can take a family of five.
Right.
Yes.
You have a two bedroom apartment in Sheeper.
And then food is.
All right.
So therefore you need about what I say to one person.
A hundred U.S. dollar a month.
No, a hundred U.S. dollar.
No, that's not.
So you could say about two hundred U.S. dollars a month to one person.

(54:17):
And again, depends on who you want to live with.
So that's the one thing I'm going to say.
I'm going to say that.
That means that you're not telling about that.
But you're going to live on the basics.
Yeah.
The basics.
You're not going to say you're going to come splash and glory.
You know.
But like transportation is cheap.
And cars is hard.
Second hand cars, very cheap.
We made them ourselves.
We have to pay two hundred years, two thousand years.

(54:39):
And we look at it.
And Jamaica is a million dollars you have to pay.
So that's what I'm going to say.
So where are these vehicles coming from?
Do you know?
Japan.
No, because some of them are coming from America.
I have some of them are French.
I hope they are from Japan.
It's one and two Chinese.
But the big trucks now are Chinese.

(55:00):
China is the biggest truck business in the world.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
And there are things to do here.
You understand?
I'm saying you're going to have to.
You know, you can really.
Somebody who's serious and an education system not too bad either.
Education.
All right.
You want the nicest thing about Africa, about sharing gone.

(55:22):
And I think it's all over Africa.
Kids.
Kids.
Endless.
The first two months, you have to step on it every time.
I know what you mean because I've experienced it.
That's what I'm supposed to tell you.
It's true.
It really does feel like.
Hold on.

(55:43):
So it is true.
And I know that I've experienced that.
Yeah.
So.
A useful, a very useful country.
And this is across Africa now.
And this is where.
Yeah.
And if we're totally out of time.
I'm going to give you a final quick word.
Yes.
Ah, it does that.
It is good.

(56:04):
I'm here.
It is good.
I've got to.
I've got to this space.
People are interested.
Then come.
We are.
I know it's not.
The.
And possibilities.
I understand.
So the former.
This is here.
Yes.
Land sheep.

(56:26):
I have, I have a question from a mutual friend of ours who says, Will he prepare a place for us?
Enemy.
Stop.
I'm going to ask you. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, my god. Well, my
girlfriend's going to ask you.
Will you please? We're coming

(56:47):
on. So, remember, we tell you.
Listen to me. Yes. Listen to
me. You have to think to the
world of it. Yes. He he first
kingdom of Jah and everything
shall be as some child in my
life and everything is added.
Yeah, man. No, well said.
Well said. Thank you so much,
Hanif. Thank you so much. And

(57:07):
thank you so much. Thanks. And
let me just get some things out
of the way so I can take my
next call because listen, so
we've been talking about how
difficult it is for us in
Jamaica. Those with a Jamaican
passport to get into North
Africa. Sisyphe, thank you for

(57:27):
the for the text because it's a
P also wrote to me to say you
need a visa for Morocco and
Sisyphe, how you get the visa
to Morocco because when we were
in the airport, I broadcast from
the airport. If you recall,
those who had American, I think
it was it was an American or
British visas could literally
leave the airport and I know

(57:49):
we're having a similar problem
for Algeria, for Tunisia,
Morocco, almost all of North
Africa. So, one thing that we've
been doing here along with my
good friend and former producer
on this program, Saundry Shaw,
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry
for the injuries.
I love Saundry because it is
what it is. You know, we deal

(58:10):
with the business of things.
We've been working on just
figuring out, trying to figure
out what is happening and what
is the situation and so Saundry
as a researcher herself, I had
to just throw it in our lap
because I cannot just hit a
wall and nobody was talking to
me anymore and so Saundry has

(58:33):
been working on this. Saundry,
morning. How you doing? I am
doing well. If you want to know
how I am well, my sister. Thank
you so much. I know you're
writing a paper as we talk and
you take a few minutes to come
off and just to tell us a
little bit about where the
research is because I know
you're working on this
seriously. Um what have you
found out so far if anything?

(58:55):
Well, the research is still in
the baby stages. So, maybe
about January. So, I have
been working on this for a few
years. It's only a good
Christmas break. Yeah. But um
so far, I, so I, I know we
spoke about Africa
specifically but I decided to
just take a while and so I

(59:16):
started with the Commonwealth
country and what I noticed was
that although several
Commonwealth countries don't
need a visa to come here, we
need one to go there but before
I get to that, since you
mentioned Morocco, let me just
say that they need a visa to
go there and they need one to
come here and they for them,

(59:38):
they need a visa. They need to
get that card to arrive. for
us now if you possess a US or
UK visa or one from Germany,
Ireland, Australia, or New
Zealand, then you can apply for
an easy visa. You're more likely
to get through but if you don't
have one of those as a
Jamaican citizen, you must go
through the embassy in Saint

(01:00:00):
Lucia. You must go through the
embassy for Morocco. I go
through the embassy in Saint
Lucia in Saint Lucia. Well,
Saint Lucia is even better than
Ecuador where you have to go
for to to get a visa for for
Tunisia but II was looking for
that and I think one of the
issues I'm having so far which
is where I made a point that
this is in the baby stages.

(01:00:20):
Mm hmm. Um the list I found it
doesn't in all cases,
outline where you need to go
for the visa. So, I found it
doesn't have to be in Morocco.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Uh because
there are other countries that
don't outline where you go.
Yeah. I suppose one of one of
the things that that that um
when we talk next, um you can
help us to understand is the

(01:00:41):
the whether they are consulates
on the island, high commission,
I know the only the only
commission we have is is
Nigeria, isn't it? I know about
Nigeria. Oh, South Africa.
Africa is right. Yes. So,
I'm not saying that you don't
need a visa to either. Right.
And but we need a visa for for

(01:01:04):
Nigeria. Nigeria, we should
still need one for Nigeria
running up my list just to make
sure. Yeah. And I suspect that
as I go through some of these
might be subject to change.
Mm hmm. Um so for Nigeria, yes,
we do need, we do need a visa

(01:01:24):
for Africa. Yeah. I think maybe
but I'm not sure about but one
of a probably don't need but
when you look at Southern
Africa, it's not so bad. I
think oh and and tell me what
you're seeing so far is it
North Africa seems to be where
the biggest problem is because
it seems to me that even if you
need a visa to go to other
African countries, um getting
it is not so difficult although

(01:01:46):
I can't imagine that you have
to go to to send Lucia to get a
visa for Morocco. Alright, so
I'm not sure if I'm going to
get a visa because I have not
been able to answer everything.
Yes. And um this is what is
available to the public from
our official ministry,
ministry of foreign affairs and
foreign trade. Mm hmm. I'm

(01:02:07):
going by their listing and
that doesn't require a visa to
go or come. I was well. for
Algeria, both ways, you do need
a visa. What I did not see
outlined was where you go to
get that visa. Where you go to
Egypt, Egypt, they want to come
here and they must get that

(01:02:28):
before arriving here. However,
if you want to go there, you
must go through Cuba. Well,
this is the thing now. So,
Sandra, this is my problem,
right? Because remember, we
just went to Egypt the other
day and so we got that from the
ministry that you go to Cuba
but Cuba says they know nothing
about that and Cuba sent us to
Washington. Washington said,

(01:02:49):
no, it's not them. It's New
York. New York says but it used
to be Washington. You go back
to Washington. Washington said
try Cuba. Cuba said, no, try
New York. This is basically
what the situation is now if
you have a Jamaican passport
and want to go into Egypt. And
I can understand the the

(01:03:09):
confusion because um on the
listing, the Jamaican consulate
was listed. It's the British
High Commission. Okay, so now
that I got the confusion again,
you don't know where exactly to
go. Which is something I
don't understand. Um you're
telling you're telling me that
um I should go to you tell me
I should go to Canada but then

(01:03:30):
Cuba is telling me I should go
to Washington and if I need to
get somewhere else for the most
part, I realize that maybe if I
have a German visa, I'm safe
for not going to all of these
different different um concerts
and embassies. Yes, and I don't
buy into the into the Schengen
visa thing. You know, I think
that there's an issue there too.
I think maybe that's what is
there but when you when you
when you test it, you are

(01:03:52):
not going to apply for E visas
um for many of these countries
that even if you have a Schengen
you still can't apply for E
visas because they tell you
they lock you to say Jamaicans.
Um you know, your passport are
eligible.
I know. I know. I know. I know

(01:04:12):
that um it's an ongoing
research. Where do you go next
with it? What's the next move?
Alright. So, um I noticed that
I was listed quite frequently
and so I thought my next step
with my next stopper that would
be there to see how easy or how
difficult it is for me to get
that visa because even if I

(01:04:33):
want to go to to Greece, that
is where um I would have to go.
That's a visa. I would have to
go and then um there's the
embassy of Spain. So, you know,
I need to figure out how I get
that visa from here and the
same thing applies if I'm going
to Greece. Yeah. And then
looking specifically into North

(01:04:54):
Africa. Um and the Middle East
which I, you know, I really
don't subscribe to Middle East.
I think it's a broken of Africa
that will live in the Middle
East. Of course. Of course.
Yes. Yeah. I'm going there and
um it's interesting also to
understand why we have so many
in the Commonwealth who have
access to all countries without

(01:05:18):
any opportunities. Well, look
at England. Look at the UK.
Them some kicker to England,
you know, because listen, we're
just dragging our feet on this
thing and then soon tell we all
kind of bad old forget out of
them place and left them alone
and left them monarchy. This is
how embarrassed Jamaica is
going to be. Look at the
situation with the UK. You need
we need a visa to go and yet

(01:05:39):
we go into parliament and into
court and every place in this
country, you know, Charles, you
know, and and and and William
and and George. This is getting
out of hand. It's ridiculous.
And I'd say also a common
story that so many other

(01:06:01):
countries that we saw what I
thought would have a better
access to. I was surprised to
find out month and week meets
no reason to come here. But we
may want to go there. It's also
a common thing. Cameroon has
needs of people to come here
and we need one to go there but
we don't know if you need to

(01:06:21):
get that before we go for
onwards. But like James
James, for example, where
you're providing that visa
while in travel or while in
transit and then diplomatic
officials are given that for
free but it's usually the
diplomatic and official
passwords that are given up
in most instances because as a
regular citizen, you don't get

(01:06:43):
any of the instructions on you.
Yeah. And one of the things
that I like later on and I know
it's it's going to be you know,
a complex and complicated work
for you but but you're on it
already. So, it is what it is
is to look to see what is
Barbados doing differently?
What is Mia Motley doing
differently? Uh because all

(01:07:04):
these countries that we're
talking about in in Africa,
95% of them, you can leave from
if you have a Barbadian
citizenship, you can leave
from if if I was if I had
Barbadian citizenship, I could
leave straight from Barbados to
go to to go to Tunisia tomorrow
morning if I wanted without a
visa.

(01:07:25):
Yeah. So, Jamaica, Jamaica's
landlocked in many ways. We're
landlocked when it comes to the
beaches and we're landlocked
when it comes to Africa. Uh I
am wondering and and maybe
you could tell me if there is
any connection to the way
Jamaica votes at the United

(01:07:46):
Nation and Jamaica's
relationship with the United
States that is locking us out
of Africa specifically Northern
North Africa. This is my
thinking. Uh huh. I'll
definitely look into that. Yes.

(01:08:06):
I'm looking into that for
many reasons. If I look into
that before I'm making any
definitive statements right now
even have even as a historian.
Yes, I I know. Um let me do it
as a journalist. Yes. and we'll
talk again soon. I suppose it
well, you'll give us an update
before the year is out and then
you know, next year, I'm sure
we're still going to be working

(01:08:28):
on this. Alright. Certainly,
just make the call and I'll be
available. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Uh appreciated.
researcher and historian,
right? Literature both. Thank
you.

(01:08:49):
Okay. Um
you know, uh
it is it's it's it's
frustrating. It is it's
frustrating.
I mean, yes, we come on the
and we never come. We're
kidnapped. You know, our
ancestors, although many of us

(01:09:10):
came before Columbus but
anyway, generally speaking, um
we we've been through the
ma. We've been through
enslavement, chattel slavery.
We've been through colonialism

(01:09:31):
and we've been independent but
as I keep saying in this space,
a promise of emancipation has
not been fully realized because
part of that is that connection
or reconnection to the
continent of Africa. We're
talking to so many um who are

(01:09:51):
in Ghana. 500 and I just got
their citizenship. Even that is
a process of getting
the right people to do it in
Barbados. The way she's doing
it. Ensuring that she's
trading directly with that.
Barbados is trading directly
with continental Africa and
once again, we say Africa is a

(01:10:13):
continent with many countries
and many ethnic groups, many
different parts of Africa. We
have to move beyond 1884. 1884
is the time we before that we
before time. We before their

(01:10:33):
new time, before they make time
before them understand time. So
that just to find ourselves
locked into a situation where
we have the the the convergence
of the digital technologies and
we have advancement in in
technology is to the point now

(01:10:55):
that we're not able to do it.
Elon Musk is talking about
colonizing Mars and we don't
reach Africa yet. They have
destroyed the earth and now
trying to colonize Mars and we
don't find continental Africa
yet. We're locked out but they
are there. It's easy for them.

(01:11:16):
They're all over Africa. Once
again, Africa is a continent.
We know that. But we know that
catharsis or Carthage but
catharsis in Tunisia and so when
we talk about Hannibal, we want

(01:11:36):
to look on catharsis.
disregarding any kind of Islam
incursion like when we go to
the to the Nile River, what I
mean is when we go to the
Nile River or Lake Tana or it

(01:11:57):
is that falls in in in Ethiopia
or in Uganda all the way up to
Egypt. We ignore the incursion.
We ignore the new colonizers,
the settler colonizers because
we understand the history

(01:12:17):
of Africa. So, back and forth,
you know, I will finding it
extremely difficult to do so and
it seems to me as if the
government of Jamaica has no
interest in normalizing
relationships or having
diplomatic relationships with
Africa as a continent or Africa
as regions. So, all of North

(01:12:40):
Africa is a problem. All of
North Africa do not try. I know
that. I know that. I know that
I'm saying I want to go to the
pyramids from time to time. I
want to go sail on the river
Nile from time to time. I want
to go right on the border
between that place where they
call Israel right there. So,
there's going to be another
seed where they call the Red

(01:13:01):
Sea from time to time.
Yes, you understand what I'm
saying and then I want to go to
Carthage but it's not me alone.
It shouldn't be that because we
have these diplomatic relations
and relationships with the
continent of Africa because of

(01:13:23):
our historical connection,
because of our DNA connection,
because of our tribal
connection, because of our
ethnic connection, because it
is the motherland and the
fatherland and the anti-land.
Basically, that's what it is.
How come as people who were

(01:13:44):
part of the nation and those
who were co-opted who came
before Columbus but were
co-opted into this farce of of
of of of a nation that we have
we we find ourselves being
locked out.
the continent of Africa.

(01:14:10):
of foreign affairs. Let it
start with you.
template. have a discussion
with her. and let us see how we
can begin to develop
relationships with Africa
continental Africa. And for me,

(01:14:37):
it's a very important thing.
Open a way. The thing is that
we can't do it. You know, we
used to say that, well, let us
go and this is what we've been
doing. Sister P. sister Minnie
Eileen Thomas Jifford. We've
been doing the the Black Star
Liner is what Eileen Thomas
Jifford called this whole

(01:15:00):
process. and so we've been
doing it but we can do it only
because we have a covenant which
we our blood is tied to. The
blood of the covenant is tied
to and you know the blood of a
covenant they say is thicker
than the blood of the womb. So

(01:15:22):
it's the blood of the covenant.
We have a blood covenant with
Africa, North Africa, South
Africa, East Africa, West
Africa, Central Africa, and the
middle of Africa. This is
exactly how it is. Anyway, but
we're going to the Ministry of
Foreign Affairs to start the
process before we even start

(01:15:43):
our prime minister to the
Ministry of Foreign Affairs to
start this process of making
North Africa and other parts of
Africa, East, West, South,
Middle, North, but North Africa
is urgent accessible to the
people of Jamaica for the
Supreme Vengeance draw and

(01:16:06):
also visa for South Africa.
Right. So, no visa for South
Africa. No visa for Ghana. No
visa for Ethiopia and but it is
what it is in in terms of a lot
of the countries but also no
visa. Alright, let me go to
this. I'll be right back. Oh,
you know, but the strength is
there still. Yes, you're so
good. You're so strong. Okay.

(01:16:27):
And also lecture at the
University of the West is in
the
first of all, let's talk quickly
before we look at Michael Manley
in context at the event that's
coming up on December ten. Okay,

(01:16:47):
yes, yes, yes, there are two
events on the same day. A
different time. My idea of a
different time for Michael
Manley would be something that
I would take to the masses.

(01:17:11):
This is how people remember
Joshua because you see 1972
was like a second emancipation
in Jamaica. and though people
speak about Michael in terms of
the people he was working on.

(01:17:33):
So, when you're going to have
an event to celebrate the life
of such a great man, I cannot
understand our dinner at the
Pegasus and these are my
comrades organizing it. I'll be
going but I question it. Mm hmm.
I mean, I don't see it look
appropriate in terms of who the

(01:17:58):
person is. Other event is at
the little theater. Mm hmm.
Many little people downtown and
all those stuff. It was
probably what they would
understand. Yes. But have
something in the open. Have
something that recognize the
this and illustrate the spirit

(01:18:19):
of the man with the people. You
know, I'm not saying this.
Michael Manly came and he saw
and what he decided to do was
to deal approach a problem.

(01:18:41):
The origin of the problem to
find solutions for the problem.
You yourself, huh? You yourself
and um I know I know that we've
been talking online uh about
different sides. The different
sides of of Michael Manly and I
want you to break down those

(01:19:01):
different sides of of Manly
for us. Um as we as we seek to
contextualize him uh before we
move into so what side of
Manly remains in the PNP? You
know, it's a tricky question
because not even to celebrate

(01:19:24):
the PNP. I was critical of the
PNP in an article after the 86
conference. So, look here,
Michael Manly anniversary is
great man is you know,
December 10th. You have your
conference September, you know,
which is close to December 10th

(01:19:45):
and you did not even mention
one thing about Michael Manly.
I'm not even going to mention
today since the JLP has co-opted
the manly philosophy.
No, no, no, no. I just said it
as a joke, you know, but the
German Labour Party has done
well in co-opting ideas of

(01:20:08):
Michael Manly than the PNP.
Mm hmm. And it is very sad
because you find you have new
people in politics who do not
have any sense of the political
power of Michael Manly in his
jacket and let me say this
still. I I remember reading a

(01:20:28):
letter to the editor because
Michael Manly that I'm studying
the Michael Manly that I'm
going to present on December
three to fifth at the
university keeping something
and that we can talk about
later. He's looking at Michael
Manly from 1969 to 1979. Mm

(01:20:48):
hmm. And there are two
sentences that I will always
remember and this other side of
Michael Manly you see one the
word is love. He went to a
meeting with the USHERA in
Southern Clarendon. And he said
while USHERA was giving his
gimmicks, he wanted to find out

(01:21:09):
who is going to address the
workers and after the
workers said that is love and
he said the place exploded. Mm
hmm. It gave him for the first
time that confidence that he
could communicate with the
that he began to learn from the

(01:21:31):
trade union. So, the first
Michael Manly is Joshua, the
trade union leader. Mm hmm.
That is the first Michael
Manly. And what and how did
that present? Yes. And you're
talking about the of the
masters of the people. This is
what I hear you saying. No, yes,
no, we'll we'll look here.

(01:21:52):
Michael. In other words, who is
Moses? No, no, Joshua. I I
don't know. Look here. Look
here. These people do not bring
names on themselves. Mm hmm.
Yeah. So, some people might see
his father as Moses. I do not
know that story. Mm hmm. But

(01:22:13):
there's a Michael Manly and
his and his father getting him
in politics. For all I care,
his father was preparing PJ
Patterson and Mr. Blake in
terms of the next kind of
leadership in the PNP. But the
JBC strike was an important
strike. An important milestone
in terms of labor activities in

(01:22:35):
Jamaica. They block the roads
and stuff like that marching
around halfway three and then
they go to Joshua. You know,
marching around that kind of
thing and the politics in
Jamaica and both sides of the
fence have been kind of biblical
and this kind of thing. So,
Manly took on this kind of a

(01:22:58):
resurrecting not only the
traditional PNP politics but
also resurrecting pan African
ism. Mm hmm. Good. And and and
we'll talk to us a little bit
about that before you move to
the next one. So, three, four,
four, you have identified
different sides to Manly which
is one is a Joshua in the early

(01:23:19):
days but you're also talking
about somebody who has now
tapped into a pan Africanism
which I suppose we have to we
have to define that in if we're
when we're talking about Michael
Manly. Yes. Yes. Alright. Now,
the thing about Michael Manly

(01:23:40):
is that you have located Michael
Manly among theorists of
decolonization and on the
development such as Kwame Nkuma
for example. Well, that Michael
Manly came into politics for
politics from the trade union
side, he brought philosophy into

(01:24:01):
politics. He said, look here,
you cannot have power and do not
have power. If you have power
and have a philosophy, I will
be doing a self-assertion and
serving people. Mm hmm. Good.
But having a philosophy mean
that you you are going to

(01:24:22):
develop policies to respond to
the historical and current
situation in your country. So,
this is something that has
moved away from totally, right?
This this idea and this
ideology of of Manly with having
power and having a philosophy.
This is something that has
moved away from this totally,

(01:24:43):
hasn't it? Well, yes. Um one of
the things we need to look on
and as I say, I steer between I
steer with a model sixty-eight
sixty-nine to seventy-nine but
let me say this. Even though
Michael Manly, alright, what
Michael Manly did in eighteen,

(01:25:04):
sorry, nineteen eighty-nine,
nineteen eighty-four H's were
expelled. So, we're all
nineteen fifty-two. So, the
PMP couldn't win an election.
Mm hmm. Well, because the whole
cold war politics, there were
three countries targeted,

(01:25:24):
British and Euras, British
Ghana, which are the Jagan and
of course, Jamaica. Well, now,
Michael Manly reversed that
situation. He came back with the
leftist attitude in the PMP that

(01:25:47):
was muted. Now, when Michael
Manly came back in nineteen
eighty-nine and decided to
continue Seagull's policy, then
we should not wait for another
country to be a to be a well,

(01:26:08):
let me ask you a question on
this and and and and this is a
genuine question, you know,
because I've been looking at
this closely. To what extent
has a Jamaica Labour Party under
Andrew Horness move closer to
that thinking of the PMP as
opposed to the PMP itself?
Um I would think not when you
look on it. Sometimes it's just

(01:26:29):
about words. Mm hmm. But in
the last few years, the
registration that Andrew
Horness has just really
captured to deal with the
social programs. So, to express
concern about the operation of
education. I mean, like most

(01:26:50):
recently, I heard the prime
minister said something about
dealing with the primary
school. That primary schools
are putting too much economic
pressure on them. Because one
of the first council Michael
Mali did was to look about
food and uniform for primary
school students. Mm hmm. Now,

(01:27:12):
the issue of social housing is
something that is related to
PMP. Mm hmm. It's not anything
that is new. Mm hmm. The prime
minister is trying to make it
look like it is something new.
It is not anything that is new.
It is something that is new.

(01:27:34):
And he's trying to take charge
of that narrative. Um which
PMP seems to have lost totally
and and not just lost but
because the PMP seems to be in
some kind of a uh uh uh uh
albeit coming together um
better now but has been in
disarray for such a long time.
Um and and to what extent do
you think that this played into

(01:27:54):
the that vacuum that Andrew
Mali is talking about? Okay, I
I can illustrate it to a meeting
I went to of the powerful
region three of the PMP. Most
recently. Let me say this.
There is the lack of political

(01:28:16):
education and and and
discussion of the uh uh party
political narratives inside the
PMP. When you have new
leadership in political parties,
new leadership likes to dominate
the politics and do not allow

(01:28:36):
people in. People in these
political parties are divided
into who was in power and who
is in power now. So, what you
have are a set of people who do
not have a clue about political
history in general in Jamaica
and in Jamaica, it's not the

(01:28:57):
PMP that are in the leadership
of the Jamaica Labour Party.
Sorry, sorry, sorry in the
leadership of the People's
National Party, right? So, I
was invited to give a talk on
Michael Wandy.
Once I opened my mouth, what I
saw was a first for this kind

(01:29:19):
of political education
discussion about the politician.
It is about Michael Manly as a
great political thinker. In the
end, I was surprised at the
kind of ovation I will receive
from the people and I realized
that while people want this
kind of uh fertile political

(01:29:42):
discussion, the leadership is
not able to give it to them and
they refuse to bring those who
can do it into the system. Mm.
Let me answer this because when
you look at those who are not
necessarily students and
scholars of Manly like myself,
you you you immediately think
you know democratic socialism
for those of us who watch the

(01:30:02):
the the the documentary by um I
think it's by that. Um what's
it? What's it called again? This
is the Stephanie Black um
documentary. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,
so you think about democratic

(01:30:23):
socialism now um politically and
otherwise economically,
globally of uh a neoliberal
agenda if you will and and we
find we find the PNP now has
to me because he says not what
you say is really what you do.
Andrew is saying one thing but
he has also embraced the

(01:30:44):
neoliberal agenda and on and
rolling that out. Then you have
to be totally anti Michael
Manley in terms of uh putting
forth a neoliberal agenda which
is closer to what you said. Um
you'll be a a a a kind of a
thinking uh or or a

(01:31:06):
conservative kind of a
thinking. Yes. Yes. Um um I I
must say this.
I came on the lot of uh for
the party in terms of the party
but I don't mind that because I
know on the ground that they are

(01:31:28):
party members who are accused
in the leadership of the party
of being anti Michael Manley. I
know that there's a fact because
it is on social media and at
times I would take on those
people. Alright. So, so we see
an ideological shift but does
that mean anti Manley you think
that's what you think is a

(01:31:49):
matter of ignorance and
arrogance? I think that there's
a set of people who believe
that it is totally not
important and another set who
do not know but I'm going to
say this. I think that they need
to deal with this because this
is a very serious issue but let
me ask you that on the back of
that. Is there an ideological
shift because that's what you

(01:32:10):
started out by saying and then
what are the implications for
this on the party and can they
go back to what you're saying?
I'm going to take a quick break.
Sorry. Yes. Yes. You didn't
know that Jamaica's
unemployment rate is at its
lowest ever ever. Yes. So, more
Jamaicans are working and can
provide for themselves and
their families. Your
government is building Jamaica.

(01:32:31):
The time by the office of the
prime minister is 4 minutes now
after nine o'clock. The segment
of the program is brought to
you courtesy of Excelsior
Community College celebrating
50 years of academic
excellence. So, the hour between
the two of us is the Excelsior
Community College celebrating
50 years of academic

(01:32:52):
excellence. On the phone lines,
uh Dr. Louis Moiston, lecturer
in the Department of
Government at the University of
the West Indies consultant and
radio talk show host and we're
looking at Michael Manley
Centenary 100 years after and
with the PNP. We don't have a
lot of time. Uh Louis, so, let
me just let you answer that
about the the the ideological

(01:33:15):
shift. So, um return, I hear
you're saying to closer to a
draw closer to the ideology of
Michael Manley but at the same
time, if that if this if there
is this shift, then, what are
the implications? Alright, I
mean, what they're going to
tell you is that the shift
began with Michael. Okay.
Michael Manley just said
continuity but genuine that he

(01:33:37):
wanted to help some more black
people especially those in the
era of entrepreneurship to take
the lead and you will see it,
you know, some of them feel
like the workers and save uh
workers bank kind of problem
and thing like that but I'm
saying now that what you find
out Michael Manley led a revolt

(01:34:00):
against the West that when
Marjorie Thatcher met with Bush
number one in Aspen, Colorado
1990, she said this and this is
how you know the profound thing
that Michael Manley said, look
Michael Manley is not a non
allied movement, the
international economic order,
nationalization and stuff like

(01:34:21):
that. We're not confusing, we
don't know politics, we don't
know economics. All of the
need for the noise to open up
in a country for investment.
Look, that tells me that was
the power in terms of this
revolt that Michael Manley led.
No, it is not about going back
to Michael Manley. It's going
on back to the core values of
the people's national party.

(01:34:44):
It's about the values of
people centered political
system which both parties know
I've embraced the whole
neoliberal order. What we have
seen now is a commercialization
of every aspect of society.
What is important in politics
now is popularity and and not

(01:35:07):
any kind of substance and it is
a dangerous situation. So, is
it a dangerous situation? What's
the clear difference between the
JLP and the PNP in terms of
um whether it is ideology or
economic policies? The only
difference is that the JLP is
most corrupt. but in terms of

(01:35:27):
political and it is really
true. Yeah. You know, I don't
look at them all. If you go and
look on the history seat but
basically in terms of political
operation and I even see PNP
and the GRO double TH. It is
not the way it is development.

(01:35:48):
That's the way because you can
have go to the development. I'm
not an economist but you have
been trying to go for a long
time and prosper for a long
time but you see what is coming
back. You can see you know that
the bricks movement is coming
and seen editorial in the in
the Jamaica Observer about poor

(01:36:09):
countries need to get together.
It's a very difficult time in
the 1970s. Yes.
so, so, yeah. So, that in terms
of the economic policies, we
have not heard or maybe we're
not listening as close as we
should. Anything articulated by
the PNP that will suggest that

(01:36:30):
it understands the economic
policies and the social
policies too of the of of this
Michael Manley that we're
talking about. Alright, yes.
Michael Manley idea when you
look on democratic socialism and
oh I could put it into context
is by teaching African politics

(01:36:51):
and look on Kwame Nkrumah and
Kwame Nkrumah said, look here,
we can't bother with this
western system anymore. We're
going to declare a republic and
we're going to have conscience
which is a cultural
philosophical change and we're
going to declare African
democracy. What we're going to

(01:37:11):
try to do is to try to we we
return to some of the
traditional values in terms of
community and you know,
cooperative system and
land-owning system and to go
against western values of
individualism. Now, what we see
is a new kind of individualism
that emerged after 1980. You

(01:37:33):
see, the next thing is that the
new kind of individualism is
economy and if somebody is
going to tell you that
accounted their history,
government must not play the
role role in economy and you
want to follow them. It is
great stupidity. Well, that

(01:37:53):
takes us to the point you made
earlier which is say which is
to say the PNP might say to you
that the ideological shift and
otherwise, it started with
Michael Manley. Michael Manley
himself apologized. I think
Michael Manley and and Margaret
Thatcher. later on apologized
right or wrong. I think so.

(01:38:16):
for all of that but I don't
think he could have controlled
what what was unleashed on on
Jamaica under the the the the
that are out rolling out of the
neoliberal project. It was it
was difficult to control. I
understand from a very good

(01:38:36):
point of view, you know,
somebody that was extremely
close to him. Why this this
switch and the person said he
felt bad about what happened
during the 70s and the violence
and the killing and the
hardship and he just wanted to
do something to pay back the
Jamaican people. while that was
so I think deep in his heart,

(01:38:59):
what people will remember
Michael Manley is a challenge
for the people. When people are
not talking about the JLP
especially one of this program
grow what you eat and eat what
you grow something like that.
This was a central part of the
the the PNP thing. Not just in

(01:39:20):
the 70s before that because I'm
saying that when you look at
the PNP, for example, the
Jamaica Industrial Development
Corporation came out of the
PNP, Norman Manley that when it
comes on to rural development,
the PNP was there. The JLP
wasn't really a political party,

(01:39:41):
you know, the JLP was just a
wing of the of the BITU and and
and he was instructed by
governor Richards to form a
party and we will let you out
of the detention camp because
PNP is socialist. It had no
real ideas because even the
issue with IDC Norman Manley

(01:40:02):
was not going for light burn in
England to come and carry out
this kind of thing. So, when
you look on things like rural
development, the JLP is just
talking these policies, you
know, but there's no actual
what they're what they're
doing is different. Yes,
they're saying what they're
saying. I mean, it sounds good
to the people and people dance

(01:40:22):
and jump and and so on. Yes.
They've they're they're
controlling that narrative, you
know, and and you wonder how
can people are being hypnotized
by this kind of thing, you know,
the hypnosis um as a matter of
fact, I don't know if you saw
the press conference that
Andrew Holness did or if you've
read um the back of it but if
you look in the room, you see

(01:40:43):
that it's it's neoliberal
agenda. It is a public private
partnership. It's a private
sector taking control and but
at the same time, the head if
you looked behind him, it says
pivot. So, they are pivoting
now. Understanding that the
neoliberal agenda has failed
they're pivoting. They're
pivoting now to a democratic

(01:41:04):
socialism but only in words and
this is where people again are
being fooled and this is why I
am saying the PNP to some
extent has allowed the JLP to
capture that narrative to
capture it and own it and have
a press conference about it
while they are still trying to
figure out themselves. Alright,
for example, the JLP spoke

(01:41:28):
about the PNP and all of a
sudden the PNP is fighting
saying PNP is him is this
allowing the JLP to control
their propaganda. Exactly.
There there should be no
response to it because they
keep on talking about PNP
mashup. The country. I'm

(01:41:48):
interested to some of them say
we're not going to look on the
internet for this man named
Little Nut Miller and I show a
lot of the work for in Jamaica
and what kind of violence they
used to carry out and work with
the CIA and the PNP has all of
this and don't even know how to
use it to defend themselves and

(01:42:10):
say no mashup and we didn't do
the machine up as uh as soon as
we do the machine up and this is
how it really go because people
need to understand. Look here,
the world is changing right now.
Most of the power shift are go
inside the um Asia and stuff
like that. Yeah. We know we'll
have to do the African business
because we are going to be

(01:42:31):
forced to do it by Trump in the
White House. So might as well
we stop being quiet right now
and we need to get on the
offensive because what is going
to happen is probably one day
Black Rock will take over
Jamaica and fly them flag in a
Jamaica because these leaders
that we have inside here have
no interest in world

(01:42:52):
development or any development
in Jamaica. Well, I think what
we need to do is to stop
black and stuff like that and
all they want to do is foreigners
when foreigners control your
economy, it means you say you're
out of existence. That was
slavery time. Yes. So so so um
Nigel has as he has come and
he's done what he was what he

(01:43:12):
came to do. Um he never planned
to stay no much longer than now.
It is not a fluke. Um he came to
do exactly what he did which is
to ensure that you know you
you you you cement the agenda
and they've done a pretty good
job of doing it before because
prosperity is failing
prosperity is for 5% or 1% and
they recognize that the people

(01:43:32):
are not buying into the
prosperity understanding that
it's only scamming work but the
the the bottom line to me though
is that the the PNP has the
very same thinking of this
public private partnership
prosperity doctrine is the same
thing them on and also the
neoliberal agenda but just

(01:43:54):
the same thing and also as if
there is um a this internal
conflict that continues in the
PNP. This is not new. This this
obviously it it it couldn't be
something that just come up the
other day. This is too deep
seated and deep rooted for it
to be anything just coming
after. Um no no sorry it's not
new you know. Sorry let's say
this. The effort to bury Michael

(01:44:15):
and in a PNP street is not new
but the only difference is that
if you're coming in you and you
have behavior like you are go
with the tradition we are come
and see people are going to take
you on and I think that that is
where we are now. Let me give
you a final um um note to just
to talk about your the lecture

(01:44:36):
you're going to give and and
the what you're going to be
addressing. Okay, December three
to fifth University of the
West in the social science
faculty will be hosting a
conference to recognize the
importance of international
politics and I will be
presenting on um Michael Manley

(01:44:59):
and the revolt against the
west nineteen sixty-nine to
nineteen seventy-nine and I'm
making a very simple statement
that the ideas of Michael Manley
was set out to challenge the
western order that we came and
we merit more domestically and
national and internationally

(01:45:20):
and we talk about equality of
men and women when you think
about masterly act and when you
think about um the master and
servants law in 1972 that was
enacted in eighteen thirty-eight
and these are fundamental
things. The whole thing to

(01:45:41):
develop cooperatives which you
know may have failed and stuff
like that but it was a I would
say a community in which we
could have cooperation among
the people and and and and you
know the really only honest
person who come forward and say
look at his travel is in thing
cannot work. Nineteen seventy-

(01:46:01):
six many people voted for
Michael Manley. You see, they
appealed the international
thing now is the is conviction
to African liberation and this
is where there's a young
man who is Michael Manley and
look on his issues regarding
Gavism and Pan Africanism. My

(01:46:23):
one thing is that Michael
Manley was a part of that
process to debrief the ex-claves
in Jamaica. Alright, so um once
again, the place and time. Where
where's the lecture going to
happen? Oh, oh yes, yes, yes.

(01:46:46):
The details on the time will
come out shortly. Alright,
okay. Thank you so much. Doctor
Louis Moris, the lecturer in
the Department of of
Government at the University of
the West Indies and consultant.
Thank you so much my brother as
usual.
Alright, we're back with you
inside of the Africa. What a

(01:47:07):
song to say. We're we're back
with you inside of the Africa
Forum. This is running African
going through until 10 o'clock
and look who's in the studio.
Alright, so let me just do this
first. Uh the uh our between
nine and ten brought to you
courtesy of Excelsior Community
College celebrating 50 years of
academic excellence. That's

(01:47:28):
nine to ten brought to you
courtesy of Excelsior
Community Community College
celebrating 50 years of
academic excellence. Thank you
so much Excelsior for coming
on board. I'm going to put on
my glasses. Come here for a
minute. Look here. Look here.

(01:47:49):
the man without the ear without
the edge. Now, we want to want
we want.
Somebody read it out for me.
What's the word? I repeat or we
want repeal and replace. Okay,
this this thing I block it
right here. So, read it for me.
Read it for me. We want repeal
and we want repeal and

(01:48:11):
replacement of the beach
control act. Somebody sign
somebody and if you can't take
that picture and put it on the
social media, we want repeal
and replacement of the beach
control act of 1956. Yes,
sorry. Start the things. Start
the things. How much how much
it measure? How much by how
much? This is a five by five.

(01:48:33):
It's all on me if you turn it
the other way but we have some
twelve by fours outside there.
You know, there you go. There
you go. There you go. My studio,
my brother, all you do, sir.
But that's funny to know and
the works, you know. We'll see
you know. Well, you know what?
You're my you're my god. Let
me just turn it off. Okay. Good

(01:48:54):
morning to Cabo and your
listeners out there. Yeah.
Thank you both. Thank you both
but you were all because I
can't um the the YouTube link
that you're going on the
backside. I want to finish. So,
I'll go back and watch. I
realize you were all
demonstrating yesterday. There
you go. So, tell us about the
protest. Yeah. So, yesterday,
um we were all down at Roring

(01:49:15):
River because you know what I
mean? We had some new
developments that's 741.3 acres
of the Roring River land have
been transferred to check and
that land sits the beautiful
Roring River, the Little River
and it's um a big part of the
Ryabuna watershed that provide
water security um for much of
northeast and that land is

(01:49:39):
going to be houses, housing
four thousand people and they're
going to also change the course
of the river. So, there's going
to to be ecocide in that space
and so we have to protect and
fight against that. Devin, you
know my problem, right? My
problem is they did not hide
this from us. This was not a

(01:49:59):
secret. We knew and I went after
what you interview yesterday. I
went back and check and change
the the the the the the thing.
It's 10 years. Yeah. So, we have
had this information for 10
years. Uh over 10 years. Yes.
How come? How come? How come we

(01:50:22):
are where we are? Where we know
and it still happened and this
is happening right across
Jamaica where we have the
information. We know what they
are doing. We know what they're
about to do and sometimes we
don't know what it is done and
then and we have not seen them
taken back anything yet

(01:50:44):
regardless of what Darrell said
over there in Portland. The
lease is up himself. That's a
whole different conversation
but how come? Yeah, well, so
they take the people for
granted and you know, I mean, I
should say the revelation that
the 1200 acres that is promised
to check for the highway.
Alright, we didn't think it

(01:51:06):
would have ended also that we
thought it was 167 in the first
release. So, this is new
information that the man must
give them off of the land
already but you know, the
governments of Jamaica take the
Jamaican people for fall. Yeah,
this was signed off on the
Portia, Simsey Miller. Yes, this
is what I almost understand. So,
this is a two party everybody
in a mix up and and and and and

(01:51:28):
give her people give her give
her Jamaica and that's what I
've been saying yesterday that
the two political parties.
The only way is to leave
Jamaica landless. You know, I
mean, I'm for take all of the
beaches then because as we can
say, we are asking for
repealment at this act because
this act is in for 68 years and
many change of administration,
right? And they did not more

(01:51:50):
remove it. None of them. Here
come roaring river. One
administration sign off on it.
One administration and it over.
So, the people are suffer at
the hands of these politicians
them in alignment when it comes
on to transferring the wealth
of the rich to the rich. They
mean, is it that the people
don't care? Yeah. We the people

(01:52:10):
don't care. I don't think it's
that the people don't care
Kabu because as I was saying to
Devon, when we because we do,
let's be frank, we do have
difficulty getting people to
stand up publicly to come out
and stand up publicly and
Doctor Meister said something

(01:52:32):
that's kind of like a
there's a well, essentially he's
saying there's a duopoly. It's
just really, it's kind of like
a uni party with a couple
differences. You know, it's
kind of like you go in the
store and you see toothpaste and
you say, whoa, there's a whole
heap of a lot of different
options but it's just the same
co gate and one say with baking
soda, one say brighter smile,

(01:52:54):
one say prettier smile, one say
lovelier smile but it's the
very same thing with a
black man. What Professor
Meister is talking about is
neoliberalism as you're talking
about and how did we get to
neoliberalism? It's really about
nineteen sixty-eight and the
bifurcation where we had two
different ideas as to how the

(01:53:16):
world was supposed to go and
one one Davos one which we now
call the World Economic Forum
WEF. So, it was Porto Allegri
which was the Brazilian Brazilian
government and this is hardcore
capitalism or big capital

(01:53:39):
capitalism where they decided
that the only way to political
freedom is for everybody to
have a chance at wealth but
really what happened was a con
because everybody can be
billionaires and that's what
happened and prior to this
rally went to a couple churches
and made a couple appeals and
they were warm and I was
noticing something in the

(01:54:01):
media. I mean, I'm not sure
about the churches are half
empty and some churches have
10% of the capacity in
Steertown in Jamaica. So, the
churches are being. Yeah. So,
this is this is this is global
really but definitely national
but we consider ourselves more
no, don't do not say that we are
a Christian country. No, I
mean, we consider ourselves

(01:54:22):
more religious. Maybe not
righteous but at least
religious. Yeah, we like to say
it. Yeah, that's that's a myth.
Yeah, but it's a Christian
country and the killing of all
the other people in it was a
bit shocking in in Gaza and
right and I realized that this
place is broken. First of all,
it was even if the church

(01:54:42):
didn't believe if the church
was delusional about their
value, they at least could
parade that they believed it
but it was I I've never seen
quite churches before since
now. Yeah. So, what? So, alright
so you're saying even the
church obviously have a serious
amount of clout in Jamaica and

(01:55:04):
we see every time there is a an
election, they all go to the
church and they are allowed to
sit on the pulpit. So, to to me,
recognizing and understanding
the isness of things which is
that each every church in
Jamaica, barring none is aligned
to a political party. So, the
churches themselves are tribal
and so if you notice, whenever

(01:55:24):
election time come on, they are
in the church and they're
not in the church. So, it's
not a good work. I say go back
to the question then Devon,
which is to say, so if it's not
that people don't care but
that somehow there's apathy,
how do we move this because
they themselves recognize the

(01:55:44):
apathy and they recognize that
they can con the people to use
Damien's word. I mean, so, how
do we move this regardless of
the science and and the and the
the politics, activism, and
different levels, right? So,
we take it to the streets but
we also take it to the courts

(01:56:05):
and we take it to all the
courts we can take it to. So,
we're not stopping in Jamaican
courts. If we have to take this
thing to the Inter-American
courts, you know what I mean?
We'll take it there. Alright,
Devon is on the radio. We'll
take it. We'll take it to the,
we'll take it to Inter-American
Court. We'll take it to we'll
take it everywhere. We take it
to United Nations, right? So,

(01:56:26):
I'm going to ask you what what
is the what is the
threat to your person to your
person to our person? Well, you
know, the once you're standing
up for an issue which is
popular or an issue which is
country runs contrary to the

(01:56:48):
interest of power, you're
always going to be under some
kind of some kind of physical
pressure. So, we discuss this
and you know, we just have to
keep going because the fight is
on our doorstep and yes,
sometimes there's fear. We just
have to keep going. I don't
think I have another choice.
Um so, we try to just look at

(01:57:09):
it that way and we can discuss
that at another time. But what
I wanted to say is not the
absence of fear which is
basically what you're saying.
Yes, what I wanted to say is
that um. 30 seconds lengthy and
it is it it boggles the mind.
Make we listen to her and come

(01:57:29):
back and talk about it next
week. Hopefully, alright, it is
quite something. It is quite
something. She's well
researched and she knows what
she has said and she's coming
from a space of knowledge but
it is frightening and Louis
Moisturne is just reminding us
that he will be attending both
functions at UE on December 10,
the meeting at Little Theatre
and the dinner at the Pegasus

(01:57:50):
and he doesn't want anyone to
think that he's boycotting.
He's just saying that we don't
want to and mister is in the
house as we make way. Good
morning mister. How you doing
sir? I'm good to have you in
the house. I know. Yeah, can
you imagine? 2 minutes a
minute now to 10 o'clock and

(01:58:11):
the game self is here. Have
you been to the circuses yet
now? Circuses in town. You
know, anything our girlfriend
Judith is involved in. We know
you're in the circus. Yes or
no? We are going to go. Yeah,
we have to go. So, Judith,
welcome to circus. from your
name called upon it. Welcome

(01:58:32):
to it. Is it going to be an
out? Oh, we're Buckfield. I'm
not sure. Okay. Alright. So,
Judith, we've got the circus
out there. Oh, I know like we
know everything. You know,
something we know. We know you
name called on the circus. We
see you with the microphone and
we see you on the stage and we
ask questions. So, we're going

(01:58:53):
to go around the circus. I
think it is deliberate. You
see, I don't know if you've
noticed the the way social
media is being used, the way
influencers are being used, the
way young people are being used.
This has to be deliberate. It's
not organic. Yeah, it is
interesting. I know you like it
though. I know you like it as a
marketer. Alright, so this is

(01:59:13):
how we're leaving it. So, we're
making way now for the beginning
side of the Sunday sunshine. I
don't want to take a chance with
Peter. So, let me go over here.
I don't want to take a chance
with Peter. Alright, let me do
this. Thank you so much for
listening. Thank you so much
for being a part of the forum.
Thanks for writing in for
texting in and for just all

(01:59:34):
together being there on the
Android, on the app, and every
every how you're listening.
Thanks to everyone in Ghana, in 2536 01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:5940 Alaska, and Africa, for doing

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