What happens when women achieve everything society told them would bring happiness, yet still feel empty inside? This provocative question lies at the heart of our conversation with Melissa Persechini, a licensed clinical therapist specializing in trauma, addiction and women's health at the Women's and Girls Empowerment Center.
Melissa's journey began with a passion for substance abuse treatment, but a graduate course in trauma therapy changed everything. She discovered that proper trauma diagnosis creates transformative healing—especially important when so many women receive misdiagnoses for anxiety, depression, or ADHD when untreated trauma is the real culprit.
What makes Melissa's approach unique is her identity as a "wounded healer." Rather than positioning herself as perfectly healed, she continually does her own therapeutic work to stay one step ahead of clients. "I am one of you," she explains, creating an authentic connection that allows women to feel truly seen in their struggles.
The post-pandemic world has intensified the isolation many women face. As Melissa poignantly observes, "It takes a village, but the woman has become the entire village." Modern women juggle careers, childcare, education and household management with diminishing support networks, creating an overwhelming mental burden.
Perhaps most compelling is Melissa's insight into why many women feel dissatisfied despite achieving traditional life milestones. She's writing a book addressing the narrative women are taught from childhood: grow up, find a partner, marry, have children, and happiness will follow. When women reach these milestones yet remain unfulfilled, they blame themselves rather than questioning the narrative itself.
"You believe you're going to be happy once you get to this end goal. And then you get there and you're not happy and it's like 'oh, what happened?'" By breaking free from oppressive societal expectations about what brings happiness, women can begin discovering what truly fulfills them.
Visit wagecenter.org to learn more about Melissa's virtual practice and upcoming book that challenges the narratives keeping women from authentic fulfillment.
📇 Contact & Bio InformationÂ
Guest Name: Melissa Persechini, LMSW, CAADC, CTP
Title: Clinical Therapist
Organization: Women and Girls Empowerment Center
Location: Virtual (based in Plymouth, MI)
Website: www.wagecenter.org
Phone: (734) 656-8225
Email: melissa@wagecenter.org
Linked in: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-persechini-31190049/
Melissa Persechini is a licensed clinical therapist with advanced training in addiction, trauma, and women’s mental health. She leads the Women and Girls Empowerment Center, a virtual therapy practice dedicated to trauma-informed care for underserved and resilient women. Melissa is currently writing a book exploring the emotional dissonance women face when life’s traditional milestones fail to deliver promised happiness — and how to reclaim meaning on their own terms.Â
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:03):
Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness,
where we dive into the human andoperational stories behind
modern care delivery.
I'm Dr Andrew Greenland and I'mthe host of this show.
I'm honored today to be joinedby Melissa Persichini, a
licensed clinical therapist withadvanced certifications in
addiction, trauma and women'shealth.
Melissa serves as a leadingvoice at the Women's and Girls
Empowerment Center, a virtualclinic based in Michigan that
(00:26):
specializes in trauma-informedcare for underserved populations
.
So, melissa, thank you so muchfor joining us here this
afternoon and giving up yourtime.
Really do appreciate it.
Melissa Persichini (00:34):
Absolutely Thanks for having me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:36):
Wonderful.
So perhaps we could start atthe top and to set the stage,
could you maybe tell?
Melissa Persichini (00:46):
us a little bit about your role and what
drew you into trauma-informedcare for women and girls
specifically.
Sure, Actually, I kind of fellinto it.
I went back to school because Iwanted to work in substance
abuse.
That was my passion.
And in grad school I took atrauma course and just
completely fell in love with howit worked and the
transformation that could happenwhen you gave somebody the
right treatment.
(01:07):
Because people get misdiagnosedor it goes untreated and they're
, you know, being treated forADHD, for anxiety, for
depression, and a lot of thosestem from untreated trauma or
just are not.
You know, yeah, it is somisdiagnosis happens and people
don't get the right treatment.
So it's something that I becamevery passionate about.
(01:28):
And then I ended up workingwith women.
I started out in substanceabuse and gradually ended up
doing treatment with residentialtreatment center for girls,
fell in love with it.
I was like I don't want to workwith teenagers, but I did, and
then I fell in love with it andit was just a process of working
with children and then movingup to working with adults and
(01:50):
what I found was I just I lovedworking with women.
I absolutely loved it, andwomen are so incredibly
resilient and so strong and theyreally you see a lot of
transformation with womenbecause they really show up and
they're willing to do the workand willing to reflect.
So it's just an exciting thingthat I love doing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:11):
Amazing.
So what does a typical day looklike for you in a fully virtual
practice?
Melissa Persichini (02:15):
at the moment, there's probably no such
thing as a typical day, but Iusually see about four clients a
day.
I have colleagues that see more.
I have colleagues that see lessor about the same.
For me, that's my sweet spot.
I've tried seeing more and itjust I don't have the capacity
for it.
So this is where I stick withseeing about four clients a day,
(02:37):
and that's a great spot for me.
And then I have more emotionalbandwidth to give clients.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:43):
So yeah, more emotional bandwidth to give
clients.
So yeah, and in terms of, Imean, are you purely sort of
clinical, purely in your therapymode, or do you have a chunk of
time that you're having tospend on the business itself?
Melissa Persichini (02:55):
I'm starting to do more of that.
That's not something I've everbeen super excited about.
Nobody goes into this for thedocumentation and marketing, but
it is something I'm dabbling in.
But for the bulk of my workit's definitely clinical
practice.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:14):
And obviously being able to have the
bandwidth for four patients aday.
How does that compare with yourcolleagues in other practices,
Because I'm guessing they havemuch higher caseloads.
They're trying to have a biggerthroughput.
What do you think you candeliver with that sort of
additional time and attentionthat perhaps other people can't?
Melissa Persichini (03:30):
I think a big part of my practice and I'm
very transparent with clients isthat I'm constantly doing my
own work.
I'm constantly in therapy orsupport groups or holistic
healing.
I am constantly doing my ownwork, which is, I think, what
attracts a lot of clients to mypractice, is that I consider
myself a wounded healer.
So I didn't arrive here likeperfectly healed and I read it
(03:53):
in a textbook and now I can helpall of you poor women Like no,
I am one of you poor women, notpoor, but you know what I'm
saying.
I've been through all of thesame things that they're going
through.
And so just to have somebodythat can hold space and who, the
way that I look at it is, youknow, when you come in and you
haven't done mental healthtreatment, it's kind of like
(04:14):
you're in the dark and you needsomebody holding the lantern
ahead of you to say like thelights over here are just like
follow me.
So I feel like I always try andstay a step ahead of my clients
by doing my own work.
Then I can offer them resourcesand I can say here's some
things you know may work for you, may not, and it's very
individualized, but I feel likeI want to try different things,
(04:35):
so I have more resources to give.
Dr Andrew Greenland (04:38):
Amazing.
What changes are you seeing inthe mental health needs of women
and girls post pandemic,Because obviously the pandemic
was a big deal for the wholeworld.
But what are you sort of seeingpost-pandemic, particularly in
your niche groups of women andgirls?
Melissa Persichini (04:52):
I feel like there's a lot of isolation.
I'm sure this is across theboard, but you know it's so
interesting when you think aboutthe quotation, you know it
takes a village right.
And so there's this thoughtthat you know we used to have
these villages where, oh, youdon't have that resource, I'll
give it to you, or you don'thave the time, I'll help you and
(05:12):
women are so isolated not thateveryone is, but women tend to
take the brunt of that, you know.
So now women are working, butthey're also raising children,
and then, you know, sometimesthey're going to school or
sometimes they're, you know,doing it, doing something else.
So I think, just the mentalload and all that they're taking
on, and then not having a bigsupport system, because
(05:35):
everybody's so focused on theirown life and trying to balance
their own household that it'slike it takes a village, but the
woman has become the entirevillage.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:47):
Got it.
I'm very interested in thewhole practice of yours being
virtual only.
So how has the shift to virtualonly care affected how clients
engage or disengage with yourservices?
Melissa Persichini (05:58):
You know I've been pretty lucky.
I think that it's just the waythat I work is that women tend
to feel pretty connected and webuild a strong rapport, even if
it's virtual.
I haven't had too many issues.
Sometimes on the onset I'llhave somebody that says, no, I
(06:18):
don't want to do virtual, andthat's totally fine.
I get wanting to do in person,but clients that I have worked
with in the past, they haven'thad any issues with it.
I mean there are some that sayI would love for you to be back
in person.
I'm like, yep, me too.
But I mean, for the most partit's not really been a barrier
(06:40):
for me personally.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:42):
I mean, do you do any in person, or is it
purely virtual, as I seem to getthe impression from your site?
Melissa Persichini (06:48):
Correct, yep , yep, all virtual for now.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:51):
And is that something that arose, you know,
as a result of the pandemic,when you know we couldn't see
people in person, or was thissomething you were doing
beforehand?
Melissa Persichini (06:59):
No, it was definitely the result of the
pandemic.
I was in person and for aboutfive years, and then the
pandemic happened.
So I was doing virtual forabout a year.
I was in another practice forabout a year and then that
office flooded and I was gettingready to move and so I thought,
well, it's not a good time tofind a new location.
(07:20):
And now I've moved back and soit's kind of like deciding what
the next step is going to be.
I'd love to do a hybridpractice where I have some days
in person and some days virtual,but it's just finding the
perfect location and all of that.
So hopefully eventually I'llget back to that.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:39):
I'm really interested in burnout and we're
all susceptible to this in thecaring professions, but I guess,
being in therapy perhaps, theburnout rate is perhaps higher.
What's your view about how it'sshowing up today in the field?
Melissa Persichini (07:54):
You know I have colleagues that will talk
about burnout.
I have not so much beenexperiencing that.
I think for me personally, whenI have those moments of feeling
burnt out, it's typicallybecause I'm not taking care of
myself or because I'm taking ontoo much of the burden of
clients healing and feeling likeI'm not making enough of a
(08:16):
difference or they're notchanging.
And so I think with the workthat I do, I just don't have
that perspective.
I'm here, I'm like a conduit,so they're either going to make
changes or they're not.
So if I don't take thatpersonally and I don't feel like
it's a reflection of me as atherapist, then I tend not to
(08:36):
burn out.
And again, I think self-care isso important, which is why I
keep my case lower than some ofmy colleagues, and that also
helps reduce burnout, becauseI'm not seeing more than I can
handle.
Dr Andrew Greenland (08:52):
I understand, and is there
anything that you do sort of inrespect of sort of client
boundaries and contracting tokind of protect yourself?
I guess to some degree.
Melissa Persichini (09:01):
I think I just practice the boundaries.
I think I just practice theboundaries.
I think a huge part of whatsometimes gets missed with
clients and therapists is thismay be the first healthy
relationship a client has hadwhere we can talk about
boundaries we can talk about.
You know, I always encourageclients if I'm doing something
you don't like, or if I askedyou something you don't want to
(09:23):
talk about, you get to set theboundary.
You get to say you don't wantto talk about.
You get to set the boundary.
You get to say I don't want totalk about that, melissa.
Or you know, you asked me to dothis and that didn't work for
me, because we're practicinghealthy relationships.
And then maybe, like I said,maybe the first opportunity
they've had to do that wherethey weren't judged or they
weren't reprimanded or, you know, spoken to in a condescending
way when they disagreed withsomeone.
(09:45):
So that's very much encouragedis that we practice healthy
boundaries.
Communicate with me if you knowI'm doing something you don't
like or vice versa, you know,and so I try and model that and
clients are very respectful ofmy time and my boundaries and
it's just a mutual understanding.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:04):
So you obviously got lots of self-care
things in place to protectyourself.
What do you see people in yourspace doing wrongly in this
respect, and perhaps people thatyou might know that have
succumbed to burnout?
Where are they going wrong?
Melissa Persichini (10:17):
Oh, I think again either over committing and
doing more than they should,not not trusting their intuition
, because I've done it in thepast.
I've worked with clients whereI think, oh you know, I really
want to work this client, I'mjust going to do it, even though
my intuition is like this isnot a good fit.
And then I take on a client andthen I end up feeling like
(10:39):
really burnt out or overloadedand it's because I didn't trust
myself.
So I think a lot of it is youhave to trust your gut.
Your gut will tell you whatyour limitations are.
And when you push beyond thatwhether it's, you know, fear of
like not having enough clientsor feel feeling like you should
push yourself out of yourcomfort zone I'm all for doing
that, but you have to know yourlimitations.
(11:00):
And then, yeah, making surethat you are doing self-care and
that you're doing your own work, because if you don't, your
clients will surpass you intheir growth.
You know what I mean.
You have to be constantly astep ahead in your own healing
process.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:16):
Thinking more about the business side of
things now.
So you've obviously worked inthe in-person.
You're now doing pretty muchall virtual.
What are some of the kind ofchallenges of running those
different style of therapybusinesses?
Melissa Persichini (11:31):
I think it's more of just losing that
in-person contact.
I mean, as far as you knowother things, they're not that
much impacted.
So I think it's more justlosing more, just losing that in
person I do.
I am somebody who likes to docreative things with clients
when the opportunity presents.
I'm not an art therapist I won'tclaim to be but I do like to do
(11:54):
creative expressions.
So when I'm in person it givesa little bit more access to you
know, you talked about such andsuch.
Let's do something artisticaround that.
And you know some of my clientsreally enjoy that element of
being able to express themselvesin a more hands-on way because
it accesses a different part ofthe brain and they're able to
kind of get things out wherewords wouldn't help them with
(12:16):
that.
So I still am able to do thatwhen we're doing virtual, but it
may just not be as accessibleas when we're in my office and I
have all these differentsupplies and I pull them out and
say let's do this, you know.
So that's probably the biggestbarrier for me that I've seen.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:31):
Got it and, in terms of it being, in terms
of the business side of things,what's the most inefficient part
of managing a virtual mentalhealth practice?
Melissa Persichini (12:41):
Hmm, I don't , I'm not, I'm not sure I
haven't.
Yeah, I feel like I want to saysomething helpful, but I don't
know that I have an actualanswer for that it's.
It's really pretty similar todoing in person, other than the
sessions.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:58):
Or put it another way, is there more
inefficiency in running anin-person clinic in terms of the
business operation side ofthings?
Melissa Persichini (13:07):
Well, I mean , if you're talking about like
income, obviously you're payinga lot more overhead.
If you're, if you're renting anoffice, you're also having to
deal with, which is partly why Ihaven't gone back to in person,
to in person.
The main reason I haven't goneback to in person is because
it's really difficult to find aspace that is a good fit for
what you're looking for.
(13:28):
The first place that I was atfor five years, I loved the
space.
It was this Victorian house,beautiful.
However, sometimes I, you know,I'd have to remind the owners
not to engage with my clients.
Um, because it's in in mostbusinesses that's.
(13:48):
You want that, you want peopleto.
You know, hey, how are you?
What's going on in your life?
But when you're dealing with amental health clinic, you have
some people that come in andit's hard for them just to show
up and they don't want to have aconversation.
If their anxiety is really high, they don't want to engage.
So, you know, educating theother people that are coming in
contact with your clients, whereyou don't have as much control
(14:11):
of that.
And then the second place that Iwas at, just the management was
not great.
So I had issues with, like youknow the bathrooms not being as
clean, or you know noiseproblems, or you know things
that, again, are out of yourcontrol when you're renting from
someone else.
So those are definitely some ofthe reasons why you know and,
(14:31):
of course, financially right,I'm not paying.
I'm not paying rent right now,but I also wouldn't mind that if
I had the perfect space.
So those are definitely some ofthe challenges of being in
person like the perfect space,so those are definitely some of
the challenges of being inperson got it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:46):
And when thinking about um, because you
you've obviously niched down onwomen and um, or young women,
what do you see as some of theunique needs and challenges of
women and girls in a virtualtherapeutic environment, having
gone sort of fully virtual now?
Melissa Persichini (15:00):
um, that's well, I would say the biggest
challenge comes with the youngerpopulation.
I definitely do not havebecause I see 16 and up.
I don't currently have anyclients that are under I would
say my youngest client isprobably around 19 or 20.
And a lot of that is just theydon't feel comfortable doing
(15:21):
virtual sessions from home wherethe parents are there.
I get a lot of that is justthey don't feel comfortable
doing virtual sessions from homewhere the parents are there.
I get a lot of like I know mymom's going to be listening and
you know she says she's not, butI know she's going to be
listening.
Or I get a lot of like, youknow, because they feel like
they can't.
They can't speak freely,whereas adults can kind of
control their environment moreand make sure that they have
(15:43):
privacy to do the sessions.
Teenagers don't feel like theyhave that, even if the parent
says that they do.
They just don't feelcomfortable talking about
certain things when theirparents are there.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:55):
And do you have to put any specific
adaptations in place?
Obviously because you're tryingto establish the privacy and
who's in the room, that kind ofthing.
What do you have to dodifferently in that kind of
encounter?
Melissa Persichini (16:06):
So when I have that, I will, you know,
usually talk to the parents inthe beginning and say look, it's
going to be really hard forthem to do this.
So you know, I would reallyencourage you to make sure that
they have privacy.
Go, turn the TV on, put on thebathroom fan fan, do whatever
you can to make sure thatthere's noise in the background
so they don't feel like you'resitting there listening, because
(16:26):
even if you're not, they thinkyou are and they're not going to
talk.
And it's not going to beproductive if I can't get them
to open up because they'reafraid of what you might hear.
Dr Andrew Greenland (16:34):
I understand okay.
Um, if you were, if you'regoing to start over building a
virtual therapy practice, whatmight you do differently?
Because you've obviously hadexperience, you've worked in the
in-person world.
You're doing the virtual world.
Now, looking back, how wouldyou do, how would you build this
from scratch, if you had tostart again?
Melissa Persichini (16:55):
that is a great question.
Um, I think that you know whatI would do differently is
already in place.
I feel like I have I have acolleague that's going to be
starting a virtual practice andI think you know, just, you know
she's talking about like thenightmare of getting paneled
(17:16):
with insurance and, you know,having to do to bill insurance,
and the thing is is now we canuse EMR, which it makes life so
much easier.
Billing is so simple, you know,and I told, I told my colleague
, I said it's really not goingto be any problem for you.
When I first started doing thisand they had nothing to do with
(17:36):
virtual, but it was just when Istarted doing this 10 years ago
I had these big paper forms andyou had to, you know, handwrite
everything, send them off.
You know you wouldn't get paidfor like probably a month, month
and a half.
It was terrible.
And now everything is onlineand so it makes everything so
much more streamlined and easierand just much more efficient.
Dr Andrew Greenland (18:00):
Amazing.
I mean, I'm in the UK so wedon't have quite the same
challenge around the billingthat you do in North America.
I mean, I know I've spoken to alot of people on these calls
and that's been the number oneniggle point for many, many
clinic-based businesses.
How have you managed tonavigate?
Have you found a solution?
Have you found the winningformula to make it less of a
(18:20):
chore, less of a burden on youand your practice?
Melissa Persichini (18:25):
Well, I don't know, that's a big
question.
I only work with certaininsurances, which is, I would
say, that that's definitely atrend.
That I see is that more privatepractice are only going to work
with a couple insurances andthey're going to be more of the
ones that reimburse at a higherrate and that are easier as far
(18:46):
as billing.
When I first started out, I wastrying to take on more
insurances to get more clientsto have there be more options.
But you have, like, I wastaking certain insurances that
would pay like $60 for a session, whereas another insurance is
paying $130, $140.
I don't want to take thatinsurance, you know, because at
(19:06):
a certain point it's not aboutmoney.
I mean, I don't think any of usgo into this field because we
just want to get rich.
I mean, I think there's otherthings we could do, other
careers we could do right.
We go into it because we lovethe work and at the same time
we're also trying to you know,financially sustain and be our
own families right.
(19:27):
So for me, there was certaininsurances that I took in the
beginning that I will no longertake because it's just not worth
it for me.
It's for all of the work that Ido.
It's just not worth it.
And because that's a trend and alot of that is happening,
you'll see that in more in likeyour community mental health.
(19:47):
Obviously they'll take all theinsurances and certain clinics
will take all the insurances,but a lot of times it's newer
clinicians that are not asexperienced.
They're not comfortable goingon their own.
That doesn't mean you can't geta good clinician, because
that's where we all start, butit does mean that it's very
likely they won't stay there fora long time because once they
(20:08):
get good and they get confident,they don't want to stay there
where they're taking all theseterrible insurances.
So yeah, I think once peopleare on their own, they're going
to take the higher payinginsurances that are easier to
build, that they're not going tohave to do all this back and
forth type of stuff got it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (20:27):
So for the insurance being one thing you
mentioned, you have an emr.
Is there anything else you havein place in your practice to
kind of smooth theadministrative flow in the
clinic?
Anything that works really wellprocesses you've got nailed to
make your life easier so thatyou can focus on what you want
to do.
Just just curious, really.
Melissa Persichini (20:45):
I think it really that that's the magic
bullet.
Is just is is using EMR becauseI can stream, I can do
everything through there.
I mean, I used to have my owndocuments and I would email this
to clients and then it was like, okay, now they're uploaded on
my website and now it's just, Idon't do any of that.
They just they do.
They do the intake forms rightthrough the EMR.
My documentation is all throughthere, my billing is all
(21:06):
through there.
So to me it's absolutely worthit for anybody that goes into
practice to use an EMR becauseyou can do everything through
there and it's really not thatexpensive.
It's pretty affordable to dothat.
So just have it all in oneplace is a lot easier.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:22):
Cool.
So what does the next 12 monthslook like for the wage center?
What are your plans for thebusiness going forward?
I think you mentioned you aregoing to be bringing on somebody
else, but where do you want tobe in the next 12 months or so?
Melissa Persichini (21:35):
I'm not bringing on anyone else.
You know, I'm really looking atdifferent possibilities of
possibly coaching.
You know there's so manylimitations when you are taking
insurance and when you'relicensed you know you're
licensed therapist there's somany limitations as to what you
can do, and I feel like a lot ofpeople are looking for coaching
(21:55):
as well, you know, in differentareas.
So, and then I'm actually inthe process of writing a book
and that is going to be focusedon.
You know, the goal of that isfor women who are feeling like
this pattern of women feelingvery dissatisfied in their life
because they are living thenarrative that was created,
(22:16):
which is to grow up, find yourpartner, get married, have the
children, and then you willmagically be happy.
And then they do this, and thenthey come in and they're like I
don't know why, I'm not happy,something must be wrong with me,
and I can't tell you how manytimes I hear the narrative
something must be wrong with me.
Or, you know, I wish I shouldbe more grateful or should be
(22:39):
more positive in this, thistoxic positivity that we have
going around, which is justtelling us that we should be
happy.
It doesn't matter what's goingon.
Be grateful, there's somethingto be happy about.
Well, sometimes there isn't.
And so if, if women feel likethey're not happy or grateful,
they feel like they are theproblem, when in fact it's this
pressure to be happy and to nothave these different emotions
(23:01):
that is causing the problem.
And again, this narrative thatonce you you get established in
your life and you have thehusband and the family, you're
going to be happy.
And then they get there andthey feel really unfulfilled and
then they start questioning didI marry the wrong person?
You know what am I doing wrong?
Instead of you're not doinganything wrong, you were.
(23:21):
You have been spoon fed sinceyou were a little girl the fact
that this was going to make youhappy.
Nobody told you to figure outwhat your dreams are.
To figure out you know whatmakes you feel purposeful and
fulfilled, to figure out yourown interests and hobbies like
that wasn't pressed upon you.
So you know, you believe you'regoing to be happy once you get
(23:41):
to this end goal.
And then you get there andyou're not happy and it's like
oh, what happened?
So you know?
So this book is about womenunderstanding that they are not
the problem.
It's releasing these chains,these oppressive beliefs about.
You know what society tells usis supposed to make us happy and
oh, by the way, you're supposedto be thin and beautiful and
(24:03):
that will also make you happy.
And then we have a bunch ofpeople starving themselves and
restricting and just livingreally unfulfilling lives
because they're doing what theywere told will make them happy.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:15):
And it's like chasing this dream that
never comes do you tell us whatthe title of the book is and
when is it going to be available, and how can anybody that's
listening to this get get theirhands on it when it comes out?
Melissa Persichini (24:28):
the title is a work in progress.
I am not quite sure what that'sgoing to be yet.
It'll definitely be outsometime next year.
Um, and definitely just go tomy website, wage centerorg.
Um, and I have a blog on thereas well.
I'm trying to post things thatare relevant for women.
Um, and yeah, I'll definitelyhave updates on there about it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:48):
Okay, well, we'll definitely put that in
the bio for this podcast soanybody who's watching it in the
future they should be able toaccess your book when it comes
out.
So I'll definitely put that onthere for you.
Is there any challenges thatyou haven't cracked yet in what
you do but you're determined tosolve while you're working on?
Melissa Persichini (25:05):
You know, this is so interesting I was
just talking to.
I have a writing coach that I'mworking with and we were just
talking about this the other dayand kind of like the you know
the narrative of the book thatI'm writing, and she's, you know
, I said we're, we have this,this.
I don't know if it's epidemicor what I would call it, but I
would say again, what I talkedabout is like women get to this
(25:27):
place and then they're likesupposed to be happy, and what
happens and I get this from somany women is that they have
done all this work and they arecontinuing to grow and their
partners are not, and so it'skind of like they're passing
them up and then it becomes very, they're become, there comes an
imbalance, um, and so it getsto be frustrating for both, both
(25:50):
partners, because now, you know, the woman has made all this
healing, she's done all thishealing work, she's become more
self aware and reflective andthe partner hasn't, and they're
they're not connectingemotionally, right, and the men
are complaining you know, we'renot having enough sex, you're
not doing this, you're not doingthat, and the woman is like
(26:11):
I've done all of this work, youhaven't done any and you're not
doing this, you're not doingthat.
And the woman is like I've doneall of this work, you haven't
done any.
And you know they want theirpartners to go to therapy and
the and they won't.
And so it's like you knowthey're they're dealing with,
whether it's anger or ADHD, or alot of men are just emotionally
unavailable checked out,they're on their phones, they're
, you know so they're.
They're dealing with emotionsby shutting down and withdrawing
(26:35):
or becoming angry, and but theydon't see that as problematic.
But it impacts the entirefamily.
So it's just, it's like it's notwithin my scope to fix, but
that is that is like theconsistent issue that I see that
is dissolving relationships.
And so you know, for the menthat are are willing to do the
(26:58):
work and they say, okay, youknow what I really want to work
on this relationship.
I want to better myself.
They do therapy or whatever,and they grow and the couple
really just flourishes.
But for those that don't, therecontinues to be a lot of
marital discord or relationshipdiscord, and so I feel like this
is something that, again,that's out of my scope.
(27:19):
But you know, we need a man tokind of do.
The other side of what I'mdoing is to empower other men to
work on their things.
So because right now, I thinkthat there's so much stigma,
with men having emotions and menworking on their things, and so
women are doing all this workand men aren't, you know,
(27:39):
meeting them where they're at,and it's causing a lot of
conflict.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:43):
Got it.
Are there any metrics that youlook at in your wage center as a
business to sort of see howyou're doing anything that you
focus on from a business ownerpoint of view?
Melissa Persichini (27:56):
I'm not I'm not a measure, a very like
measured mathematical type ofperson, obviously I wouldn't be
in this work right.
So for me, what I, what I willnotice, is, you know, when I
first start working with theclient, they come in and they're
just talking and talking, and alot of times I have to kind of,
okay, let's, let's slow down alittle bit, let's take a breath,
because they have so much toshare.
(28:19):
And what I start seeing overtime, if they're using some of
the practices that I've taughtthem, is that they come in and
they they're a much calmerenergy, they are updating me,
but they're able to say thisthing happened and here's how I
handled it.
Or you know, this thinghappened and I noticed this
happening and I identify, youknow, they're identifying
patterns, they're able toreflect, they're able to see
(28:40):
themselves and see how theyshowed up differently, and we
talk about that.
And then eventually they get toa point where they're like I
don't really have much to say.
And if that happens enough,then it's like okay, well, maybe
it's time for us to step back alittle bit and not see each
other as frequently.
And that always ebbs and flows,and any client that I've worked
with knows that they can alwaysdo more sessions or less
(29:00):
sessions depending on what'sgoing on in their lives.
So but that's really what Ilook for is that they need me
less.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:06):
Okay, thank you, and is there any?
If you had a magic wand tosolve one of the any challenge
that you have in the business,whether it's an admin thing or a
bidding thing, or an insurancething, or whatever the other
aspects of your business are,what would that be?
What would that thing that youwould like to be able to fix
with the magic wand?
Melissa Persichini (29:22):
Gosh, that is a fantastic question.
I don't know the answer to that.
I feel like I'm sure it wouldbe something with insurance.
Just I think giving morepermission to do broader
services, to be able to maybe doan in-home session and to just
(29:47):
not be so restrictive about whatwe can do, because I think
people would benefit from evenlike having having a therapist
in their space and to be able todo to see like what they do at
home or how things go and beable to help them more.
And I mean that's available forcommunity mental health, which
is a different population thatI'm working with, where it's not
(30:07):
really therapy, it's more ofjust kind of showing up and what
are the needs.
But I think you know the peoplethat I'm working with that are
they're able to function andthey're.
They're you know reputablepeople that you wouldn't think
they're in therapy.
You know they're.
They're working inadministrative roles, they're
working in finances, they'reworking in teaching, they're you
know they have upstanding jobs.
(30:28):
So they're able to function butjust being able to have some
more services available to themthan like one hour a week.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:37):
But this is services delivered by other
people, or is this somethingyou'd like to be able to do?
Melissa Persichini (30:41):
I'd love to be able to do that, yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:43):
Yeah, what would stop you?
I mean, is there anything thatwould stop you from doing that?
Melissa Persichini (30:49):
Well, just with liability, with insurance,
there are limitations.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:54):
Where you're really not supposed to do
that type of thing.
Melissa Persichini (30:56):
Okay, interesting yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:58):
Melissa, thank you so much for your time
this afternoon.
It's been a really interestingconversation, hearing about what
you do, your approach, hearinga little bit about your book
that's to come out, which I'msure people will be interested
in reading.
But yeah, thank you very much,really appreciate it.
Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness,
where we dive into the human andoperational stories behind
modern care delivery.
I'm Dr Andrew Greenland and I'mthe host of this show.
I'm honored today to be joinedby Melissa Persichini, a
licensed clinical therapist withadvanced certifications in
addiction, trauma and women'shealth.
Melissa serves as a leadingvoice at the Women's and Girls
Empowerment Center, a virtualclinic based in Michigan that
(00:26):
specializes in trauma-informedcare for underserved populations
.
So, melissa, thank you so muchfor joining us here this
afternoon and giving up yourtime.
Really do appreciate it.
Melissa Persichini (00:34):
Absolutely Thanks for having me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:36):
Wonderful.
So perhaps we could start atthe top and to set the stage,
could you maybe tell?
Melissa Persichini (00:46):
us a little bit about your role and what
drew you into trauma-informedcare for women and girls
specifically.
Sure, Actually, I kind of fellinto it.
I went back to school because Iwanted to work in substance
abuse.
That was my passion.
And in grad school I took atrauma course and just
completely fell in love with howit worked and the
transformation that could happenwhen you gave somebody the
right treatment.
(01:07):
Because people get misdiagnosedor it goes untreated and they're
, you know, being treated forADHD, for anxiety, for
depression, and a lot of thosestem from untreated trauma or
just are not.
You know, yeah, it is somisdiagnosis happens and people
don't get the right treatment.
So it's something that I becamevery passionate about.
(01:28):
And then I ended up workingwith women.
I started out in substanceabuse and gradually ended up
doing treatment with residentialtreatment center for girls,
fell in love with it.
I was like I don't want to workwith teenagers, but I did, and
then I fell in love with it andit was just a process of working
with children and then movingup to working with adults and
(01:50):
what I found was I just I lovedworking with women.
I absolutely loved it, andwomen are so incredibly
resilient and so strong and theyreally you see a lot of
transformation with womenbecause they really show up and
they're willing to do the workand willing to reflect.
So it's just an exciting thingthat I love doing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:11):
Amazing.
So what does a typical day looklike for you in a fully virtual
practice?
Melissa Persichini (02:15):
at the moment, there's probably no such
thing as a typical day, but Iusually see about four clients a
day.
I have colleagues that see more.
I have colleagues that see lessor about the same.
For me, that's my sweet spot.
I've tried seeing more and itjust I don't have the capacity
for it.
So this is where I stick withseeing about four clients a day,
(02:37):
and that's a great spot for me.
And then I have more emotionalbandwidth to give clients.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:43):
So yeah, more emotional bandwidth to give
clients.
So yeah, and in terms of, Imean, are you purely sort of
clinical, purely in your therapymode, or do you have a chunk of
time that you're having tospend on the business itself?
Melissa Persichini (02:55):
I'm starting to do more of that.
That's not something I've everbeen super excited about.
Nobody goes into this for thedocumentation and marketing, but
it is something I'm dabbling in.
But for the bulk of my workit's definitely clinical
practice.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:14):
And obviously being able to have the
bandwidth for four patients aday.
How does that compare with yourcolleagues in other practices,
Because I'm guessing they havemuch higher caseloads.
They're trying to have a biggerthroughput.
What do you think you candeliver with that sort of
additional time and attentionthat perhaps other people can't?
Melissa Persichini (03:30):
I think a big part of my practice and I'm
very transparent with clients isthat I'm constantly doing my
own work.
I'm constantly in therapy orsupport groups or holistic
healing.
I am constantly doing my ownwork, which is, I think, what
attracts a lot of clients to mypractice, is that I consider
myself a wounded healer.
So I didn't arrive here likeperfectly healed and I read it
(03:53):
in a textbook and now I can helpall of you poor women Like no,
I am one of you poor women, notpoor, but you know what I'm
saying.
I've been through all of thesame things that they're going
through.
And so just to have somebodythat can hold space and who, the
way that I look at it is, youknow, when you come in and you
haven't done mental healthtreatment, it's kind of like
(04:14):
you're in the dark and you needsomebody holding the lantern
ahead of you to say like thelights over here are just like
follow me.
So I feel like I always try andstay a step ahead of my clients
by doing my own work.
Then I can offer them resourcesand I can say here's some
things you know may work for you, may not, and it's very
individualized, but I feel likeI want to try different things,
(04:35):
so I have more resources to give.
Dr Andrew Greenland (04:38):
Amazing.
What changes are you seeing inthe mental health needs of women
and girls post pandemic,Because obviously the pandemic
was a big deal for the wholeworld.
But what are you sort of seeingpost-pandemic, particularly in
your niche groups of women andgirls?
Melissa Persichini (04:52):
I feel like there's a lot of isolation.
I'm sure this is across theboard, but you know it's so
interesting when you think aboutthe quotation, you know it
takes a village right.
And so there's this thoughtthat you know we used to have
these villages where, oh, youdon't have that resource, I'll
give it to you, or you don'thave the time, I'll help you and
(05:12):
women are so isolated not thateveryone is, but women tend to
take the brunt of that, you know.
So now women are working, butthey're also raising children,
and then, you know, sometimesthey're going to school or
sometimes they're, you know,doing it, doing something else.
So I think, just the mentalload and all that they're taking
on, and then not having a bigsupport system, because
(05:35):
everybody's so focused on theirown life and trying to balance
their own household that it'slike it takes a village, but the
woman has become the entirevillage.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:47):
Got it.
I'm very interested in thewhole practice of yours being
virtual only.
So how has the shift to virtualonly care affected how clients
engage or disengage with yourservices?
Melissa Persichini (05:58):
You know I've been pretty lucky.
I think that it's just the waythat I work is that women tend
to feel pretty connected and webuild a strong rapport, even if
it's virtual.
I haven't had too many issues.
Sometimes on the onset I'llhave somebody that says, no, I
(06:18):
don't want to do virtual, andthat's totally fine.
I get wanting to do in person,but clients that I have worked
with in the past, they haven'thad any issues with it.
I mean there are some that sayI would love for you to be back
in person.
I'm like, yep, me too.
But I mean, for the most partit's not really been a barrier
(06:40):
for me personally.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:42):
I mean, do you do any in person, or is it
purely virtual, as I seem to getthe impression from your site?
Melissa Persichini (06:48):
Correct, yep , yep, all virtual for now.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:51):
And is that something that arose, you know,
as a result of the pandemic,when you know we couldn't see
people in person, or was thissomething you were doing
beforehand?
Melissa Persichini (06:59):
No, it was definitely the result of the
pandemic.
I was in person and for aboutfive years, and then the
pandemic happened.
So I was doing virtual forabout a year.
I was in another practice forabout a year and then that
office flooded and I was gettingready to move and so I thought,
well, it's not a good time tofind a new location.
(07:20):
And now I've moved back and soit's kind of like deciding what
the next step is going to be.
I'd love to do a hybridpractice where I have some days
in person and some days virtual,but it's just finding the
perfect location and all of that.
So hopefully eventually I'llget back to that.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:39):
I'm really interested in burnout and we're
all susceptible to this in thecaring professions, but I guess,
being in therapy perhaps, theburnout rate is perhaps higher.
What's your view about how it'sshowing up today in the field?
Melissa Persichini (07:54):
You know I have colleagues that will talk
about burnout.
I have not so much beenexperiencing that.
I think for me personally, whenI have those moments of feeling
burnt out, it's typicallybecause I'm not taking care of
myself or because I'm taking ontoo much of the burden of
clients healing and feeling likeI'm not making enough of a
(08:16):
difference or they're notchanging.
And so I think with the workthat I do, I just don't have
that perspective.
I'm here, I'm like a conduit,so they're either going to make
changes or they're not.
So if I don't take thatpersonally and I don't feel like
it's a reflection of me as atherapist, then I tend not to
(08:36):
burn out.
And again, I think self-care isso important, which is why I
keep my case lower than some ofmy colleagues, and that also
helps reduce burnout, becauseI'm not seeing more than I can
handle.
Dr Andrew Greenland (08:52):
I understand, and is there
anything that you do sort of inrespect of sort of client
boundaries and contracting tokind of protect yourself?
I guess to some degree.
Melissa Persichini (09:01):
I think I just practice the boundaries.
I think I just practice theboundaries.
I think a huge part of whatsometimes gets missed with
clients and therapists is thismay be the first healthy
relationship a client has hadwhere we can talk about
boundaries we can talk about.
You know, I always encourageclients if I'm doing something
you don't like, or if I askedyou something you don't want to
(09:23):
talk about, you get to set theboundary.
You get to say you don't wantto talk about.
You get to set the boundary.
You get to say I don't want totalk about that, melissa.
Or you know, you asked me to dothis and that didn't work for
me, because we're practicinghealthy relationships.
And then maybe, like I said,maybe the first opportunity
they've had to do that wherethey weren't judged or they
weren't reprimanded or, you know, spoken to in a condescending
way when they disagreed withsomeone.
(09:45):
So that's very much encouragedis that we practice healthy
boundaries.
Communicate with me if you knowI'm doing something you don't
like or vice versa, you know,and so I try and model that and
clients are very respectful ofmy time and my boundaries and
it's just a mutual understanding.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:04):
So you obviously got lots of self-care
things in place to protectyourself.
What do you see people in yourspace doing wrongly in this
respect, and perhaps people thatyou might know that have
succumbed to burnout?
Where are they going wrong?
Melissa Persichini (10:17):
Oh, I think again either over committing and
doing more than they should,not not trusting their intuition
, because I've done it in thepast.
I've worked with clients whereI think, oh you know, I really
want to work this client, I'mjust going to do it, even though
my intuition is like this isnot a good fit.
And then I take on a client andthen I end up feeling like
(10:39):
really burnt out or overloadedand it's because I didn't trust
myself.
So I think a lot of it is youhave to trust your gut.
Your gut will tell you whatyour limitations are.
And when you push beyond thatwhether it's, you know, fear of
like not having enough clientsor feel feeling like you should
push yourself out of yourcomfort zone I'm all for doing
that, but you have to know yourlimitations.
(11:00):
And then, yeah, making surethat you are doing self-care and
that you're doing your own work, because if you don't, your
clients will surpass you intheir growth.
You know what I mean.
You have to be constantly astep ahead in your own healing
process.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:16):
Thinking more about the business side of
things now.
So you've obviously worked inthe in-person.
You're now doing pretty muchall virtual.
What are some of the kind ofchallenges of running those
different style of therapybusinesses?
Melissa Persichini (11:31):
I think it's more of just losing that
in-person contact.
I mean, as far as you knowother things, they're not that
much impacted.
So I think it's more justlosing more, just losing that in
person I do.
I am somebody who likes to docreative things with clients
when the opportunity presents.
I'm not an art therapist I won'tclaim to be but I do like to do
(11:54):
creative expressions.
So when I'm in person it givesa little bit more access to you
know, you talked about such andsuch.
Let's do something artisticaround that.
And you know some of my clientsreally enjoy that element of
being able to express themselvesin a more hands-on way because
it accesses a different part ofthe brain and they're able to
kind of get things out wherewords wouldn't help them with
(12:16):
that.
So I still am able to do thatwhen we're doing virtual, but it
may just not be as accessibleas when we're in my office and I
have all these differentsupplies and I pull them out and
say let's do this, you know.
So that's probably the biggestbarrier for me that I've seen.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:31):
Got it and, in terms of it being, in terms
of the business side of things,what's the most inefficient part
of managing a virtual mentalhealth practice?
Melissa Persichini (12:41):
Hmm, I don't , I'm not, I'm not sure I
haven't.
Yeah, I feel like I want to saysomething helpful, but I don't
know that I have an actualanswer for that it's.
It's really pretty similar todoing in person, other than the
sessions.
Dr Andrew Greenland (12:58):
Or put it another way, is there more
inefficiency in running anin-person clinic in terms of the
business operation side ofthings?
Melissa Persichini (13:07):
Well, I mean , if you're talking about like
income, obviously you're payinga lot more overhead.
If you're, if you're renting anoffice, you're also having to
deal with, which is partly why Ihaven't gone back to in person,
to in person.
The main reason I haven't goneback to in person is because
it's really difficult to find aspace that is a good fit for
what you're looking for.
(13:28):
The first place that I was atfor five years, I loved the
space.
It was this Victorian house,beautiful.
However, sometimes I, you know,I'd have to remind the owners
not to engage with my clients.
Um, because it's in in mostbusinesses that's.
(13:48):
You want that, you want peopleto.
You know, hey, how are you?
What's going on in your life?
But when you're dealing with amental health clinic, you have
some people that come in andit's hard for them just to show
up and they don't want to have aconversation.
If their anxiety is really high, they don't want to engage.
So, you know, educating theother people that are coming in
contact with your clients, whereyou don't have as much control
(14:11):
of that.
And then the second place that Iwas at, just the management was
not great.
So I had issues with, like youknow the bathrooms not being as
clean, or you know noiseproblems, or you know things
that, again, are out of yourcontrol when you're renting from
someone else.
So those are definitely some ofthe reasons why you know and,
(14:31):
of course, financially right,I'm not paying.
I'm not paying rent right now,but I also wouldn't mind that if
I had the perfect space.
So those are definitely some ofthe challenges of being in
person like the perfect space,so those are definitely some of
the challenges of being inperson got it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (14:46):
And when thinking about um, because you
you've obviously niched down onwomen and um, or young women,
what do you see as some of theunique needs and challenges of
women and girls in a virtualtherapeutic environment, having
gone sort of fully virtual now?
Melissa Persichini (15:00):
um, that's well, I would say the biggest
challenge comes with the youngerpopulation.
I definitely do not havebecause I see 16 and up.
I don't currently have anyclients that are under I would
say my youngest client isprobably around 19 or 20.
And a lot of that is just theydon't feel comfortable doing
(15:21):
virtual sessions from home wherethe parents are there.
I get a lot of that is justthey don't feel comfortable
doing virtual sessions from homewhere the parents are there.
I get a lot of like I know mymom's going to be listening and
you know she says she's not, butI know she's going to be
listening.
Or I get a lot of like, youknow, because they feel like
they can't.
They can't speak freely,whereas adults can kind of
control their environment moreand make sure that they have
(15:43):
privacy to do the sessions.
Teenagers don't feel like theyhave that, even if the parent
says that they do.
They just don't feelcomfortable talking about
certain things when theirparents are there.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:55):
And do you have to put any specific
adaptations in place?
Obviously because you're tryingto establish the privacy and
who's in the room, that kind ofthing.
What do you have to dodifferently in that kind of
encounter?
Melissa Persichini (16:06):
So when I have that, I will, you know,
usually talk to the parents inthe beginning and say look, it's
going to be really hard forthem to do this.
So you know, I would reallyencourage you to make sure that
they have privacy.
Go, turn the TV on, put on thebathroom fan fan, do whatever
you can to make sure thatthere's noise in the background
so they don't feel like you'resitting there listening, because
(16:26):
even if you're not, they thinkyou are and they're not going to
talk.
And it's not going to beproductive if I can't get them
to open up because they'reafraid of what you might hear.
Dr Andrew Greenland (16:34):
I understand okay.
Um, if you were, if you'regoing to start over building a
virtual therapy practice, whatmight you do differently?
Because you've obviously hadexperience, you've worked in the
in-person world.
You're doing the virtual world.
Now, looking back, how wouldyou do, how would you build this
from scratch, if you had tostart again?
Melissa Persichini (16:55):
that is a great question.
Um, I think that you know whatI would do differently is
already in place.
I feel like I have I have acolleague that's going to be
starting a virtual practice andI think you know, just, you know
she's talking about like thenightmare of getting paneled
(17:16):
with insurance and, you know,having to do to bill insurance,
and the thing is is now we canuse EMR, which it makes life so
much easier.
Billing is so simple, you know,and I told, I told my colleague
, I said it's really not goingto be any problem for you.
When I first started doing thisand they had nothing to do with
(17:36):
virtual, but it was just when Istarted doing this 10 years ago
I had these big paper forms andyou had to, you know, handwrite
everything, send them off.
You know you wouldn't get paidfor like probably a month, month
and a half.
It was terrible.
And now everything is onlineand so it makes everything so
much more streamlined and easierand just much more efficient.
Dr Andrew Greenland (18:00):
Amazing.
I mean, I'm in the UK so wedon't have quite the same
challenge around the billingthat you do in North America.
I mean, I know I've spoken to alot of people on these calls
and that's been the number oneniggle point for many, many
clinic-based businesses.
How have you managed tonavigate?
Have you found a solution?
Have you found the winningformula to make it less of a
(18:20):
chore, less of a burden on youand your practice?
Melissa Persichini (18:25):
Well, I don't know, that's a big
question.
I only work with certaininsurances, which is, I would
say, that that's definitely atrend.
That I see is that more privatepractice are only going to work
with a couple insurances andthey're going to be more of the
ones that reimburse at a higherrate and that are easier as far
(18:46):
as billing.
When I first started out, I wastrying to take on more
insurances to get more clientsto have there be more options.
But you have, like, I wastaking certain insurances that
would pay like $60 for a session, whereas another insurance is
paying $130, $140.
I don't want to take thatinsurance, you know, because at
(19:06):
a certain point it's not aboutmoney.
I mean, I don't think any of usgo into this field because we
just want to get rich.
I mean, I think there's otherthings we could do, other
careers we could do right.
We go into it because we lovethe work and at the same time
we're also trying to you know,financially sustain and be our
own families right.
(19:27):
So for me, there was certaininsurances that I took in the
beginning that I will no longertake because it's just not worth
it for me.
It's for all of the work that Ido.
It's just not worth it.
And because that's a trend and alot of that is happening,
you'll see that in more in likeyour community mental health.
(19:47):
Obviously they'll take all theinsurances and certain clinics
will take all the insurances,but a lot of times it's newer
clinicians that are not asexperienced.
They're not comfortable goingon their own.
That doesn't mean you can't geta good clinician, because
that's where we all start, butit does mean that it's very
likely they won't stay there fora long time because once they
(20:08):
get good and they get confident,they don't want to stay there
where they're taking all theseterrible insurances.
So yeah, I think once peopleare on their own, they're going
to take the higher payinginsurances that are easier to
build, that they're not going tohave to do all this back and
forth type of stuff got it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (20:27):
So for the insurance being one thing you
mentioned, you have an emr.
Is there anything else you havein place in your practice to
kind of smooth theadministrative flow in the
clinic?
Anything that works really wellprocesses you've got nailed to
make your life easier so thatyou can focus on what you want
to do.
Just just curious, really.
Melissa Persichini (20:45):
I think it really that that's the magic
bullet.
Is just is is using EMR becauseI can stream, I can do
everything through there.
I mean, I used to have my owndocuments and I would email this
to clients and then it was like, okay, now they're uploaded on
my website and now it's just, Idon't do any of that.
They just they do.
They do the intake forms rightthrough the EMR.
My documentation is all throughthere, my billing is all
(21:06):
through there.
So to me it's absolutely worthit for anybody that goes into
practice to use an EMR becauseyou can do everything through
there and it's really not thatexpensive.
It's pretty affordable to dothat.
So just have it all in oneplace is a lot easier.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:22):
Cool.
So what does the next 12 monthslook like for the wage center?
What are your plans for thebusiness going forward?
I think you mentioned you aregoing to be bringing on somebody
else, but where do you want tobe in the next 12 months or so?
Melissa Persichini (21:35):
I'm not bringing on anyone else.
You know, I'm really looking atdifferent possibilities of
possibly coaching.
You know there's so manylimitations when you are taking
insurance and when you'relicensed you know you're
licensed therapist there's somany limitations as to what you
can do, and I feel like a lot ofpeople are looking for coaching
(21:55):
as well, you know, in differentareas.
So, and then I'm actually inthe process of writing a book
and that is going to be focusedon.
You know, the goal of that isfor women who are feeling like
this pattern of women feelingvery dissatisfied in their life
because they are living thenarrative that was created,
(22:16):
which is to grow up, find yourpartner, get married, have the
children, and then you willmagically be happy.
And then they do this, and thenthey come in and they're like I
don't know why, I'm not happy,something must be wrong with me,
and I can't tell you how manytimes I hear the narrative
something must be wrong with me.
Or, you know, I wish I shouldbe more grateful or should be
(22:39):
more positive in this, thistoxic positivity that we have
going around, which is justtelling us that we should be
happy.
It doesn't matter what's goingon.
Be grateful, there's somethingto be happy about.
Well, sometimes there isn't.
And so if, if women feel likethey're not happy or grateful,
they feel like they are theproblem, when in fact it's this
pressure to be happy and to nothave these different emotions
(23:01):
that is causing the problem.
And again, this narrative thatonce you you get established in
your life and you have thehusband and the family, you're
going to be happy.
And then they get there andthey feel really unfulfilled and
then they start questioning didI marry the wrong person?
You know what am I doing wrong?
Instead of you're not doinganything wrong, you were.
(23:21):
You have been spoon fed sinceyou were a little girl the fact
that this was going to make youhappy.
Nobody told you to figure outwhat your dreams are.
To figure out you know whatmakes you feel purposeful and
fulfilled, to figure out yourown interests and hobbies like
that wasn't pressed upon you.
So you know, you believe you'regoing to be happy once you get
(23:41):
to this end goal.
And then you get there andyou're not happy and it's like
oh, what happened?
So you know?
So this book is about womenunderstanding that they are not
the problem.
It's releasing these chains,these oppressive beliefs about.
You know what society tells usis supposed to make us happy and
oh, by the way, you're supposedto be thin and beautiful and
(24:03):
that will also make you happy.
And then we have a bunch ofpeople starving themselves and
restricting and just livingreally unfulfilling lives
because they're doing what theywere told will make them happy.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:15):
And it's like chasing this dream that
never comes do you tell us whatthe title of the book is and
when is it going to be available, and how can anybody that's
listening to this get get theirhands on it when it comes out?
Melissa Persichini (24:28):
the title is a work in progress.
I am not quite sure what that'sgoing to be yet.
It'll definitely be outsometime next year.
Um, and definitely just go tomy website, wage centerorg.
Um, and I have a blog on thereas well.
I'm trying to post things thatare relevant for women.
Um, and yeah, I'll definitelyhave updates on there about it.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:48):
Okay, well, we'll definitely put that in
the bio for this podcast soanybody who's watching it in the
future they should be able toaccess your book when it comes
out.
So I'll definitely put that onthere for you.
Is there any challenges thatyou haven't cracked yet in what
you do but you're determined tosolve while you're working on?
Melissa Persichini (25:05):
You know, this is so interesting I was
just talking to.
I have a writing coach that I'mworking with and we were just
talking about this the other dayand kind of like the you know
the narrative of the book thatI'm writing, and she's, you know
, I said we're, we have this,this.
I don't know if it's epidemicor what I would call it, but I
would say again, what I talkedabout is like women get to this
(25:27):
place and then they're likesupposed to be happy, and what
happens and I get this from somany women is that they have
done all this work and they arecontinuing to grow and their
partners are not, and so it'skind of like they're passing
them up and then it becomes very, they're become, there comes an
imbalance, um, and so it getsto be frustrating for both, both
(25:50):
partners, because now, you know, the woman has made all this
healing, she's done all thishealing work, she's become more
self aware and reflective andthe partner hasn't, and they're
they're not connectingemotionally, right, and the men
are complaining you know, we'renot having enough sex, you're
not doing this, you're not doingthat, and the woman is like
(26:11):
I've done all of this work, youhaven't done any and you're not
doing this, you're not doingthat.
And the woman is like I've doneall of this work, you haven't
done any.
And you know they want theirpartners to go to therapy and
the and they won't.
And so it's like you knowthey're they're dealing with,
whether it's anger or ADHD, or alot of men are just emotionally
unavailable checked out,they're on their phones, they're
, you know so they're.
They're dealing with emotionsby shutting down and withdrawing
(26:35):
or becoming angry, and but theydon't see that as problematic.
But it impacts the entirefamily.
So it's just, it's like it's notwithin my scope to fix, but
that is that is like theconsistent issue that I see that
is dissolving relationships.
And so you know, for the menthat are are willing to do the
(26:58):
work and they say, okay, youknow what I really want to work
on this relationship.
I want to better myself.
They do therapy or whatever,and they grow and the couple
really just flourishes.
But for those that don't, therecontinues to be a lot of
marital discord or relationshipdiscord, and so I feel like this
is something that, again,that's out of my scope.
(27:19):
But you know, we need a man tokind of do.
The other side of what I'mdoing is to empower other men to
work on their things.
So because right now, I thinkthat there's so much stigma,
with men having emotions and menworking on their things, and so
women are doing all this workand men aren't, you know,
(27:39):
meeting them where they're at,and it's causing a lot of
conflict.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:43):
Got it.
Are there any metrics that youlook at in your wage center as a
business to sort of see howyou're doing anything that you
focus on from a business ownerpoint of view?
Melissa Persichini (27:56):
I'm not I'm not a measure, a very like
measured mathematical type ofperson, obviously I wouldn't be
in this work right.
So for me, what I, what I willnotice, is, you know, when I
first start working with theclient, they come in and they're
just talking and talking, and alot of times I have to kind of,
okay, let's, let's slow down alittle bit, let's take a breath,
because they have so much toshare.
(28:19):
And what I start seeing overtime, if they're using some of
the practices that I've taughtthem, is that they come in and
they they're a much calmerenergy, they are updating me,
but they're able to say thisthing happened and here's how I
handled it.
Or you know, this thinghappened and I noticed this
happening and I identify, youknow, they're identifying
patterns, they're able toreflect, they're able to see
(28:40):
themselves and see how theyshowed up differently, and we
talk about that.
And then eventually they get toa point where they're like I
don't really have much to say.
And if that happens enough,then it's like okay, well, maybe
it's time for us to step back alittle bit and not see each
other as frequently.
And that always ebbs and flows,and any client that I've worked
with knows that they can alwaysdo more sessions or less
(29:00):
sessions depending on what'sgoing on in their lives.
So but that's really what Ilook for is that they need me
less.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:06):
Okay, thank you, and is there any?
If you had a magic wand tosolve one of the any challenge
that you have in the business,whether it's an admin thing or a
bidding thing, or an insurancething, or whatever the other
aspects of your business are,what would that be?
What would that thing that youwould like to be able to fix
with the magic wand?
Melissa Persichini (29:22):
Gosh, that is a fantastic question.
I don't know the answer to that.
I feel like I'm sure it wouldbe something with insurance.
Just I think giving morepermission to do broader
services, to be able to maybe doan in-home session and to just
(29:47):
not be so restrictive about whatwe can do, because I think
people would benefit from evenlike having having a therapist
in their space and to be able todo to see like what they do at
home or how things go and beable to help them more.
And I mean that's available forcommunity mental health, which
is a different population thatI'm working with, where it's not
(30:07):
really therapy, it's more ofjust kind of showing up and what
are the needs.
But I think you know the peoplethat I'm working with that are
they're able to function andthey're.
They're you know reputablepeople that you wouldn't think
they're in therapy.
You know they're.
They're working inadministrative roles, they're
working in finances, they'reworking in teaching, they're you
know they have upstanding jobs.
(30:28):
So they're able to function butjust being able to have some
more services available to themthan like one hour a week.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:37):
But this is services delivered by other
people, or is this somethingyou'd like to be able to do?
Melissa Persichini (30:41):
I'd love to be able to do that, yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:43):
Yeah, what would stop you?
I mean, is there anything thatwould stop you from doing that?
Melissa Persichini (30:49):
Well, just with liability, with insurance,
there are limitations.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:54):
Where you're really not supposed to do
that type of thing.
Melissa Persichini (30:56):
Okay, interesting yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:58):
Melissa, thank you so much for your time
this afternoon.
It's been a really interestingconversation, hearing about what
you do, your approach, hearinga little bit about your book
that's to come out, which I'msure people will be interested
in reading.
But yeah, thank you very much,really appreciate it.
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