September 25, 2025 • 34 mins
How often do you think about the light surrounding you right now? Far beyond illuminating your space, that light is actively shaping your health in profound ways most of us never consider. Dr. Martin Moore-Ede, pioneering Harvard researcher who first identified the circadian clock in the human brain, reveals why your "light diet" deserves as much attention as your food diet.
Having spent decades translating cutting-edge light science into practical applications, Dr. Moore-Ede explains how our modern indoor lifestyle under "ultra-processed" LED lighting is undermining our wellbeing. The evidence is startling: improper light exposure increases risks of cancer, diabetes, psychiatric illness, and significantly shortens lifespan. Meanwhile, proper light exposure – particularly morning sunlight – can extend life by up to five years and reduce chronic disease risk by 20-30%.
The light spectrum contains distinct wavelengths with specific biological effects: blue light resets our circadian clock, red light promotes healing, and near-infrared light (invisible but abundant in sunlight) penetrates our bodies to enhance cellular energy production. This explains why hospital patients in rooms with windows recover 30% faster – something Florence Nightingale recognized in 1860, yet modern hospitals still place patients in windowless rooms under harsh lighting.
Dr. Moore-Ede's mission now focuses on education and implementing solutions through his consulting firm Circadian and consumer-friendly products like automatically adjusting circadian light bulbs. His book "The Light Doctor" translates complex science for everyday readers, helping them understand that light isn't just for vision – it's a fundamental determinant of health deserving the same attention we give nutrition. Ready to transform your relationship with light? Start by getting outside in morning sunlight and reducing blue light exposure at night.
Guest Biography
Dr. Martin Moore-Ede is a pioneering circadian scientist and the founder of TheLightDoctor.com and CIRCADIAN®, a global authority on fatigue risk management and 24/7 operations. Formerly a professor at Harvard Medical School, Dr. Moore-Ede led the team that discovered the brain's circadian clock and its synchronization to light. He now focuses on transforming lighting environments in clinics, homes, and corporate settings to optimize human health. His latest book, The Light Doctor, brings decades of science to a wider audience and offers practical solutions for healthier living through light.
Contact Details and Social Media Handles
- Name: Martin Moore-Ede M.D., Ph.D.
- Company: Circadian Light Research Center
- Phone: +1-617-823-1610
- Email: mme@circadian.com
- Book: https://thelightdoctor.com/
- Website: https://circadianlight.org/
- Substack: lightdoctormartinmooreede.substack.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-moore-ede-80630a12/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/circadianlightdoctor/
- Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/DrMooreEde/
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drmartinmoore-ede1539
- Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?u
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:00):
Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness.
This is the show where weexplore what's next in patient
care, clinic innovation, andwellness delivery.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and todaywe're joined by someone who's
been at the forefront oftranslating science into
real-world clinical impact, Dr.
Martin Moore Eed.
Martin is a medical doctor andcircadian scientist who spent
decades researching how lightaffects human biology.
(00:22):
He's the founder ofthelightdoctor.com and also
leads Circadian, a global leaderin fatigue, risk management and
24-7 workforce solutions.
His work has helped shift howhospitals, clinics, and
corporations think aboutlighting, not just for
visibility, but for health.
So, Martin, thank you very muchfor joining us and welcome to
the show.
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (00:41):
Well, Andrew, it's delight to be with
you and uh look forward to theconversation.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:46):
So maybe we could start at the top.
Could you talk a little bitabout um your role of the light
doctor and circadian and howthis fits into the broader
mission of improving healthoutcomes?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (00:57):
Yes, the whole issue is that um awareness
of the healthiness of light uhyou know dates back.
Florence Nightingale knew thatit was one of the most important
things that patients should getaccess uh to sunlight during
the day and being asleep in thedark at night, uh, written up in
her textbook of 1860.
(01:17):
By the turn of the century, uhpeople were being put outside in
the sunshine, um, used curingall sorts of ills.
But we've got very lax to dowith light um uh with all our
you know fascination with moderntechnology, antibiotics, um,
and the rest of modern medicine,that actually uh we've got
(01:38):
ourselves into a very adversesituation in that we're living
under very unhealthy lightingconditions.
So just explain it you know uhbriefly.
Um uh the for the first 10,000generations of human existence,
um, our ancestors uh livedoutside much of the time.
(01:58):
They're in bright daylight.
Uh they slept in the dark atnight.
They might have candles andwoodfires, but they basically
slept in the dark.
Um, and we've changed all that.
We've moved indoors about 95%of the time, it's indoors in
front of screens.
Um, we use lights that we nowknow are unhealthy.
So my whole work has been toidentify this.
(02:19):
Um it started back at HarvardMedical School, where I led the
team that identified the uhclock in the human brain, the
superchismatic nucleus, thecircadian clock.
We located it.
We figured it out for the firsttime that it was indeed
synchronized by light.
No one believed the clockexists or that light was the key
signal at that time.
And then from there, we figuredout how it related to all sorts
(02:43):
of medical uh disorders, um,you know, not just sleep and
fatigue, but also um immunedisorders, cancer, diabetes, and
the rest.
More recently, my work has beento look for solutions in
lighting because since about thelast 10 years, since about
2014, when LEDs were introduced,we've been under a very, very
(03:07):
artificial world driven by thevisual appearance of the light
and its so-called energyefficiency.
That's what's been the focus.
We got rid of incandescence,which actually we're now
learning are much healthier uhthan these LED lights.
We got rid of halogen lights.
Um, these the sort of the wholeenergy climate change, I fully
(03:29):
agree with you know, doing whatwe can to save the planet, but
not at the cost of human health.
So, my my work has been inacademia at Harvard Medical
School for 23 years, um, inconsulting to industry, that's
the firm Circadian I founded 42years ago with offices around
the world, how you translatethis science into the workforce,
(03:49):
health, well-being, sickness,absenteeism, productivity, uh,
accidents, injuries, and soforth.
But more recently, intoactually seeing if we're going
into a new field, which is howdo you create LED lights, um,
how do you create lighting, uh,to actually identify the precise
part of the light spectrum thatis causing the havoc.
(04:13):
The beauty is that it'sactually a very narrow band of
blue in the light spectrumthat's causing the problem.
Um, and so that's that that's asort of a brief summary, and
then we can dive into where youwant to go.
Dr Andrew Greenland (04:25):
Lovely.
So, was there a kind of keyturning point that made you
realize that light was beingunderleveraged in clinical care?
Because you've obviously hadthis very long journey of
interest in light, but what wasthe point when you realized ah,
there's really something in thisclinically?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (04:39):
Well, I think the the big issue turning
point was around the year 2000when three major studies came
out identifying the rate ofbreast cancer being, you know,
50% or more greater in peoplewho were exposed to light at
night.
And that was people whetherthey were sleeping with the
lights on or people working atnight.
Um, and that then led to theWorld Health Organization in
(05:02):
2007 coming out with aproclamation or a um decision
that there was a uh it was acarcinogen, essentially, light
at night.
That then led um the I wasalready by my consulting firm
consulting to over half theFortune 500 around the world.
And they came to me and said,Martin, what can we do?
We can't do a thing, you know,we can't turn the lights out, we
(05:24):
can't shut down our businesses,we have to run around the
clock, we're running oilrefineries, railroads, airlines,
you name it, you know, um, wehave to run nuclear power, etc.
We have to run non-stop.
And um, that's when I startedto get serious about oh my gosh,
there's a whole and by the way,other disorders were rapidly
(05:45):
identified in terms of diabetes,heart disease, immune
disorders, and and many more.
So it was clear that we had torethink lighting, and yet the
whole lighting industry wasracing towards this um these
blue pump LEDs they use, whichis the most efficient way uh to
convert electricity into light,and regulations were put in
(06:08):
place that were constrainingthis, and as I say,
incandescence will be banned.
And so that's the real turningpoint was realizing that here's
all this sickness.
It's clearly related toill-design, not fit for purpose
lighting in terms of humanhealth.
It's fit for purpose in termsof vision, you might even argue
that um quality of light, butit's certainly not fit for
(06:30):
purpose in terms of humanhealth, and yet the lighting
industry fundamentally doesn'tthink about health when they're
selling lights, they're thinkingabout aesthetics and about
energy utility bill costs.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (06:44):
Interesting.
So, what do you and what's yourtypical day look like at the
moment?
Are you still hands-on?
Are you more focused on theresearch and development side?
What's your kind of typical umway that you deal with do all
this work?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (06:57):
Well, first of all, the consulting firm I
founded, um, I built a verystrong team around the world,
and uh my son Andrew actuallyshowed a real affinity for this.
Uh, and so I was able, as I gotinto this, um, taking a detour
um out in terms of developinglighting, having to start a
business, um, venture capital,you know, capital and all the
(07:19):
rest of it to get that lightingbusiness going.
Um, I handed over theconsulting firm to Andrew, and
he's running that today, and hedoes it very well.
So I just keep a, you know,other than keeping an eye on
that, um, I'm not directlyinvolved.
Uh, my day is uh largely uh I'min the and as I say, the last
(07:39):
10 years I've been inventing andputting into practice and so
forth, and then selling thetechnology to a major lighting
company where I served as chiefmedical advisor for the
transition.
So my day today iscommunicating.
I mean, the biggest problem isgetting the message out there.
Um, it is uh, you know, likeit's like DDT before Silver
(08:04):
Spring, you know, before uhSilent Spring.
Um uh Rachel Carson's book,which is over 50 years now,
everyone was using DDT, sprayingon everybody, causing all sorts
of um ill health, and the bookcame out and it changed the um
changed the whole view of it andit was banned after a while.
So I've got a little mission inhand in the saying, look, light
(08:26):
is as important as anythingelse, um, and we use incredibly
unhealthy lights.
And now if you've got a problembut not a solution, that's not
too helpful.
But actually, there are nowsolutions.
We now have various types oflight sources that are directly
evidence-based proven to bebeneficial for health.
(08:47):
In other words, we can solvethis problem.
So the barrier is education.
The problem in a market isalways lining companies will
say, well, we'll can build thisstuff, but will anybody buy it?
And if no one buys it, we'lljust won't continue to build it.
So you have to have theconsumer demand, but consumers
don't know what they want orwhat they need, and so it's this
(09:10):
um education effort.
Um, and so uh I've that's thereal shtick I'm on.
It's podcasts such as this,it's a book I've written called
The Light Doctor.
Um sales uh, you know, it cameout last year.
Sales are climbing just in thelast month, it's been increased,
ramping up 20-fold above theprevious months.
(09:31):
I mean, so it's starting toreally take off.
Uh, a lot of people buyingbecause it's a book.
If I can just give a brief uhstatement about it, it's a book
that explains this to the everyperson.
In other words, it's aimed atthe average person who's
interested, explains it all,explains what the problem is,
explains the solution, explainshow you can find the solutions
(09:52):
and so forth.
Um, and sort of translates thisscience uh for a for a general
uh general audience.
Um, and that is something thatI'm doing there.
Um, and I'm also you knowwriting articles.
I have a Substack newsletterevery week or every couple of
weeks that I get out on this.
Um, and I've got various socialmedia channels like Instagram
(10:15):
and uh um and LinkedIn where I'mum again pushing out that
message and it's gatheringspeed, which is exciting.
So that's my effort is how dowe get the word out there?
Because unless there's ademand, you know, um then the
solutions don't come.
You've got you've a chicken andegg, you've got to solve both
(10:37):
at the same time.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:38):
Got it.
So thank you for mentioningyour book, and we will put the
details of your book on thepodcast website so people can
get some more information andget a copy.
Um, I'm doing my bit forpatient education.
I talk a lot about light infunctional medicine, probably
not to your level, but um, I doreference you know the whole
issue around blue light screensand the quality of light in the
household.
So I take a very holisticapproach to chronic illness.
(11:00):
But what do you think are thebig things that people do not
know about light?
What are the the holes in themessaging that you're trying to
fill with your communication andyour messaging?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (11:10):
Well, it's not a question of colour, in
other words, people think justby changing the colour, a warm
colour versus a cool colour, youknow, and that the problem with
that is it's still for mostlights in the stores today, that
it's based on a blue pump.
In other words, it's um it's ablue LED chip that then has got
phosphors over it to createwhite light, but essentially you
(11:33):
still get a big spike of blue.
So, people, it's not just aquestion of color tuning, that's
not the solution.
Um, it's really the content oflight.
But it's hard to see thecontent of light, what's in the
light.
Um, basically, for you know,just for explaining to a general
audience, uh, white light islike um it's comprised of all
(11:54):
the colors of the rainbow.
Um, it's also comprised ofultraviolet light you can't see,
and infrared light that youcan't see.
That's natural daylight.
Um, but with a spectral deviceslike spectrophotometer, you can
tease out every one of thosecolors, the the violets, the
blues, the um uh the greens, theyellows, the reds, and so
(12:15):
forth, and how much of each ofthat part of the spectrum.
And it turns out that everypart of that light spectrum has
some biological or medicalsignificance.
So it's fascinating.
You know, some of the lightthat's down at 380, which is in
the deep, deep violet, barelyvisible, is actually um has an
effect on blood flow in the eyein the developing eye and
(12:37):
whether you're going to getmyopia as a child or not.
Um, and yet we block that umwith our windows, we block that
out.
Uh, if you go to the violet,it's on the violet, it's a
disinfectant of the 405.
Down to 420, uh, a violet uhblue color.
Uh, you that's a that that's apart of the spectrum that is um
(12:57):
alerting.
It actually produces cognitiveperformance and alertness.
Uh, as you get into the um, asI say, we've talked about the
aqua uh blue or uh um the uharound 480, which is the
circadian clock resetting, andall this you can be mapping by
receptors in the eye, uh opsin,which are the photochemicals
that are detecting it, differentopsins.
(13:19):
Um, and then of course, whenyou get into the uh red part of
the spectrum, that now is shownto be very important in terms of
um uh cell cellular health andhealing.
Healing happens much fasterwith red light.
And when you get into the nearinfrared, fascinating, this is
the spectrum that's you justcan't see, but it's still lots
of it in sunlight, itcontributes to warmth.
(13:41):
Lots of it, by the way, inincandescent light bulbs that
we're missing today.
But that is penetrating thebody.
So sunlight goes all the waythrough the human body and out
the other side.
People don't realize the thatinfrared portion of it, and what
that does is generatemitochondrial performance.
Mitochondria are those littleorganelles inside cells, the
(14:02):
little energy-producing packetsproduce the ATP, uh, produce the
energy uh in the body, and alsouh and they're critical to
health, and um, they get boostedby that infrared.
So, one of the bottom lines, bythe way, is never want to miss
it on any conversation, get outin the morning every day.
(14:22):
By the way, the big effects arein the morning, particularly in
the first half of the morning.
That's when the glue is socritical to setting the second
clock.
That's when the infrared is soeffective at boosting and uh and
uh uh improving glucosemetabolism, but also increasing
mitochondrial function andenergy production.
So we're learning it, it's it'sa rapidly developing new papers
(14:46):
coming out every day, veryrapidly developing area.
But we know enough now to knowthat sunlight is enormously
helpful, and we know also know alot to know that blue rich
light at night is enormouslyharmful, and so we know enough
to start designing solutionswhich are going to get better
and better over time.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (15:06):
Interesting.
I mean, I'm getting patients todo a lot of the things that you
talk about, so this really,really resonates.
Um, are you seeing moreawareness or demand around
topics like light exposure,sleep health, circadian
alignment from younger patients?
Do you get any sense of youngerpatients more aware of this
stuff, or are you really havingto educate everybody?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (15:26):
Well, I think it's educating everybody
at this stage.
Um, and um, it certainly isinteresting.
I I see a broad spectrum ofpeople, they come from different
areas.
Um, you know, the audience thatI end up speaking to most of
the time are health consciouspeople, particularly people get
health conscious, most healthconscious, I find, when they get
(15:46):
married or get have a partnerand they start having children
and they start concerned abouttheir health and their child's
health is a very good time.
So health conscious parents isa great uh group of people.
Um, but I'm also seeing a lotof interest in in an aging
population because exposure tolight daylight is amazing,
(16:08):
effects and in fact increasinglifespan for up to five years,
longevity, not healthylongevity.
Uh, golfers, for example, whoplay a lot of golf, they're
gonna spend two, three, fourhours out when they play that
golf outside, live five yearslonger.
That's 300,000 golfers inSweden compared to 300,000
(16:30):
age-matched, socioeconomicallymatched non-golfers, right?
Five years extra life.
Um, and I don't think it's allthe exercise of swinging the
club.
I think a lot of it's got to dowith the sunlight.
So learning that longevityquestion.
And then, as I say, I thinkthere is um the lighting
industry is um fascinated bythis.
I mean, they see this.
I think there's a generalacceptance of the lighting
(16:52):
industry, all lights are gonnabe circadian.
Um, I led a team of 250scientists around the world
who've done and published themost work in this area and
published it recently, came outthis consensus study that all
lights are going to be need tobe circadian.
The industry gets that.
They just are waiting for thisdemand to justify the investment
(17:15):
and walking away from what theytraditionally do.
Right now, unfortunately, 98%of what they produce on the
store shelves and installed inbuildings is these um unhealthy
static blue-rich lights.
And static means they don'tchange.
Critical thing about lightinghas to change.
What you need to see during theday is radically different from
what you need to see uh duringthe nighttime hours.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:38):
Got it.
What um happened during thepandemic?
Because we were stuck insidefor long periods of time.
Did you notice anything from aclinical scientific point of
view around lighting and um howit affected us all?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (17:51):
Oh, I think it was part of the general
malaise and ill health and soforth at that time.
Um I I do know, I mean, I thinkthe most um insightful studies
are some of these, uh, forexample, the Biobank study done
in the UK.
Uh 86,000 people who were givenlight meters to track how much
(18:12):
light they saw during the uhthey were exposed to during the
daytime and then during thenighttime.
And if you divide it up thethose who saw the most daytime
light, um they had lessdiabetes, less cardiovascular
disease, and so forth, um, lesspsychiatric illness.
In fact, the difference betweenabout a 20-30% difference in
(18:32):
psychiatric depression, anxiety,and a lot of the ills of our
time, quite frankly, I think canbe associated with being
indoors.
Um, I've been reading papersrecently suggesting that the
crisis of infertility, inpartly, you know, in declining,
you know, we're not meeting the2.2 child children per woman
(18:55):
needed to sustain a population,is partly related to sperm
motility and so forth, andthat's in turn related to light
exposures.
I think we're finding there's aso many parts of our modern
life uh are fault.
Now, what we've done, by theway, you might say, what was the
lifespan when Edison inventedthe light bulb?
(19:15):
Well, the average lifespan was39 years.
Now our average lifespan ismaybe 79 years or 78 years,
somewhere like that for theaverage person.
Um might say, well, gosh, youknow, changing the LED lights
has clearly been that would be atotally false conclusion.
Um, in fact, our lifespan isplateaued with it went down
(19:36):
during COVID.
It really has barely crept up,and we're sort of stuck there.
I think there's a potential toincrease the average lifespan by
five, 10 years.
Um, uh if we got our lightinguh diet right.
And I use the word diet, by theway, intentionally because huge
attention to nutrition.
I mean, one of the first thingsthat struck me is I wrote my
(19:58):
book, The Light Doctor.
Um, it's called Using Light toBoost Health, Improve Sleep, and
Live Longer.
Subtitle, it's available onAmazon and in your local
bookshore.
Um, but when I wrote that book,I went to some of the
publishing houses and I realizedoh my gosh, um, Penguin Random
House, the largest public houseof um publisher in the world.
(20:20):
1800 books on their list,active list about diets and
nutrition.
1800 books.
One book on their list aboutlighting and health, and that
was in 1913, I'm sorry, 19 um itwas uh came out 19.
(20:41):
Well, it came out before LEDlights existed, right?
The only book on on the list.
So it was like so.
We use the word light diet.
That whole process of what youknow, what is your light diet?
Is your traditional diet?
What is junk food?
What is junk light?
What is ultra-processed light,the LEDs, junk, ultra-processed
(21:04):
light, junk, ultra-processedfood.
Let's translate that language.
It's exactly equivalent, uh,it's a wonderful simile.
Um, and uh I think it gets themessage across.
So that's one of the messagescan people think, and that's why
I say, you know, the light wesee is important to our health
as the food we eat, the water wedrink, and the air we breathe.
(21:25):
Um, and that's that's thebottom line message of my book,
um, uh The Light Doctor.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:31):
Thank you.
So, what's working really wellwith your mission and business
right now?
I mean, obviously it is amission, it's also a business,
but what's working particularlywell for you right now?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (21:41):
Well, it's a really a mission, it's a
mission business, yes.
I mean, in other words, the thebusiness is decided one way or
the other stuff has to be paidfor.
When I was in academia atHarvard Medical School for 23
years, um, I had to go out andget all those uh government
grants.
Um, fortunately, I moved overto the US because of that, quite
frankly, because the difficultygetting sizable funding.
(22:03):
Uh, that's why I went over toHarvard to do my PhD instead of
doing it in in the UK.
Um, and I got grants from NASA,National Institute of Health,
National Science Foundation,millions of dollars.
By the way, I'm so glad I'm notdoing it in the current era,
our current administration inthe US, I'd be stymied totally.
And so, but let's get asidefrom politics here.
(22:26):
Um, but I was able to do a lotof work with that funding.
But that's funding, all right?
And so you're you and and thosefoundations and others that are
founding you, that's a source.
If you want to go out and do itwithout applying for government
grants and funding, which is along process, then you have to
money has to come in somewhere.
It either has to be a businessthat creates money, um, you
(22:47):
know, whether it's selling booksor consulting services and so
forth, um, or it has to be aproduct and so forth.
So uh, and to get there, youyou also need to raise money
out.
Well, either way around, itcomes I actually like the
freedom that we have um to goexactly the direction we want.
Um, and where them, you know,and and and that's uh and and so
(23:09):
I've been fine, I've done itboth ways, um non-profit and
for-profit.
And it it actually, I thinkthere's some real advantages for
the for-profit in terms of uhuh the flexibility to to follow
your nose in the direction youwant to go.
Dr Andrew Greenland (23:25):
Okay, I'm I'm guessing that the the entire
world is your total addressablemarket, but where do you see
the most traction with this?
I mean, is it corporatehospitals, private practices, um
domestic?
Where's where's the mosttraction with what you do?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (23:39):
Well, I think there are some places
where human performance isabsolutely critical.
Uh, and those are that's wheremy consulting practice is
focused, which is 24-7operations.
If you're running somethingseamlessly 24-7, it's a control
room of an oil refinery or apower plant, or uh it is a major
(24:04):
airline or whatever it is,there we find the most interest
because it really matters as tothe performance of those people.
You can't afford errors.
Um, you know, I I think youknow, when we started, we were
pointing out that the majoraccidents of the last 50 years,
uh, Three Mile Island,Chernobyl, um the Bopol instant
(24:27):
uh chemical spill and and soforth, the XMFLDs all occurred
in the middle of the night um infatigue people.
Um and so that was one of theoriginal um emphases of what
we're thinking about.
But that critical performance,and so yes, so we started we
when we originally developedthese lights that's that bury
(24:48):
the circadian, in other words,rich in blue during the day,
zero blue at night, um, we putthem into our first uptake point
was um uh the 24-7 operations,uh, put into 65 different
Fortune 500 companies, adoptedthe lighting, and so that was
the first place we got got goingbecause they really care about
(25:11):
the end result, um, the bottomline.
We're now seeing a lot ofconsumer interest.
Um, the technology that I wasinvolved in inventing and
patenting and so forth, and thenuh selling to a major lighting
company is now being put intolight bulbs for the home.
That's a big market, a lot ofpeople concern.
And so uh we chorus producesthe oyo, that's OIO, uh the
(25:35):
circadian light bulbs.
Um, that again is we can giveyou the website address for
that.
But those light bulbsautomatically deliver the right
formula, as it were, dependingon the time of day, and they do
it automatically, so you don'thave to run around and change
light bulbs or switch things onand off.
Um, that can be done allautomatically now in a light
(25:55):
bulb.
So that's the home market.
I think hospitals um uh shouldbe um a key target.
Uh, unfortunately, um they're atougher, tougher group to get
to change.
Um uh and um we've seen lesstraction there, although the
evidence now is pretty clearthat patients who are in rooms
(26:18):
with windows get out of the ICUand 30% sooner.
Um they get out there, theyrecover out of hospitals, they
get out of the hospitals a dayearlier, um, and so forth for
all sorts of conditions.
Um, so we know that this ishardly a new finding, as they
Florence Nightingale knew it in1860, but but you know, having
(26:42):
proper day lighting, windows andso forth, and not putting
people in windowless rooms isactually a pretty important part
of health.
And if you've got a windowlessroom, you should be putting in
circadian lighting into it,which has the right components
to it, uh, not just putting instatic LEDs.
Um, and so um, yeah, so that'spart of it.
(27:02):
I mean, I when I was uh Istarted off doing a surgical
internship uh on my way frommedical school through then to a
PhD at a surgical internship uhas a junior resident, and uh
and I was working these 36-hourlong shifts under bright
fluorescent lighting 24-7.
Um horrendous environment to beworking in, and you know, as I
(27:24):
say, uh that I aim to change ifI can, but that's the that's
probably the hardest.
Um, and we're seeing um variousuh office, I think wellness
buildings and so forth, thatpeople are becoming aware of it,
but it's uh um it's an areathat uh yeah, we've got a lot of
people starting to ask for it.
(27:44):
The key is getting to the rightperson.
Who buys the lights is the keyproblem.
So, for example, when we wereselling lights, we found the
lighting industry, when theysell lights, it's an incredibly,
I don't know if you know howmuch it works, incredibly
complex process.
They have marketing rep rep repcompanies that they sell that
(28:06):
that then and they then they'relighting designers and then
they're electrical contractors,and then they're distributors,
and by the end of the day, thelighting company that
manufactures lights has no ideawhere their lights go.
They have no idea whatsoever.
And all those people down thechain have no interest in human
health, they're just selling,trying to sell the light at the
(28:26):
cheapest cost they can to getthe project.
The problem is the personbuying the lights tends to be
the facility manager.
He's only concerned about theenergy costs of the building, no
incentive whatsoever to careabout the occupants.
So the the real insight therewas we've got to do something
different.
We've got to go great directlyto the person who's responsible
(28:49):
for the health and well-beingand performance of the
workforce.
And if you get to that person,it might be a VP of safety or
health, environment, it might bethe plant manager or the
operations manager that's got tohave an operation running
smoothly and effectively andreduced errors and so forth, and
you get them, give them thespecs, um spec lock, we call it,
(29:11):
right?
In other words, if you givethem a set of specs that none of
the regular lights can meet,and then give it to your
facilities manager and says thisis what you've got to buy, then
you can get the job done.
But most lighting companiesdon't have a clue how to operate
in that uh world, um, exceptfor one group, which is very
interesting, the horticultural,you know, the um uh the lights
(29:33):
for growing plants, um,everything from cannabis to
tomatoes to whatever else, um,that is actually sold that way.
They hire botanists to go andtalk to the owners who
themselves are often botanistswho have botanical training, uh,
to pick the right lightspectrum for health.
And the sale avoids all thischannel of um uh people in the
(29:58):
middle who actually quitefrankly.
Frankly, until recently, wehaven't been caring.
We're now educating them, Iwill say, and we're trying to do
very hard to try to educatethose channels.
But it's such an amorphous andinefficient way that lights are
sold today, that that's one ofone of the challenges.
You know, I'm digging you a bitinto the realities of the
problem.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:17):
No, I was I was smiling, and um when you
were talking about hospitals,I'm still a hospital clinician
as well.
This completely resonatesbecause the entire hospital is
fitted with sort of cheap striplight.
And I'm basically subjected tothis on a daily basis, and there
are lots of windowless rooms,and you're right, the patients
are in windowless rooms.
So all of this stuff completelyresonates.
So I guess I mean, aside fromthe procurement, which I think
(30:39):
was what you were just detailingnow about the difficulty in
getting quality lighting into abig institution, are there any
other major sort of challengesor bottlenecks that you have in
the work that you do?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (30:49):
Well, one of the big bottlenecks has been
the product, because thelighting industry is um another
okay, this is an industry I'vehad to learn from scratch about,
right?
But uh a major lighting companyhas millions of SKUs.
In other words, millions andmillions, of slight varieties of
every type type light fixture.
(31:09):
You can't possibly make all ofthose circadian.
And so, but on the other hand,the customer in the lighting
industry is used to be able tochoose any um type of fixture
they want.
Um, and so we've got a balanceof saying, okay, there's only a
limited number of circadianfixtures, you can't have every
single one, um, because thatwould take an impossible amount
(31:30):
of time to do.
Um, and so that's one of thechallenges, also, is there.
But we're starting to see moreand more circadian lighting
products come in the market.
And as I say, it's it's a riskfor that lighting company to do
it because they don't knowwhether the market is there.
But on the other hand, youcan't sell them unless the
(31:50):
products are available.
So that's part of part of thechallenge, having having the
right mixture, whether it'stroughers, you know, those
ceiling fixtures, uh, whetherit's the linear type fixtures or
the down lights.
You know, you need the the sortof typical group of lighting uh
products in order to light aspace.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:10):
So, Martin, what's next for you in the next
six to twelve months with youruh mission and your business?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (32:16):
Well, I think uh it a little bit more of
the same.
Um I'm look I'm looking at thepossibility of producing a next
edition of the book because thescience is moving ahead.
Um, and that's a question, youknow, is it a brand new book or
is it um you know an updatedversion of the present one?
So that's something I'm reallylooking at.
Um, but I think right nowthere's you know the the core
(32:40):
message is has been resonatingso well with the Light Doctor
that I'm um really focusing ontrying to get uh trying to find
you know how to get that uhlarger audience.
Um I did a lot of work in theyou know my early days at
Harvard, um a lot of uh media uhopportunity, you know, I was
(33:01):
all over the BBC and um I did aone-hour documentary for the BBC
um about the science of fatigueand circadian clocks and so
forth.
Um I think we need to do onelike that, uh do a documentary
or something like that on thistopic.
Um, I um was also on theToday's show, Good Morning
(33:22):
America, and all those.
So, you know, the size of theaudience matters in terms of
reach.
So I'm um so I talk to anywhereI can, uh including your
podcast, um, but I'm looking toget that word out um to a
broader audience.
And you know, I think peopleneed to hear the message, and I
find that it resonates extremelywell.
Most people have not got a clueabout this topic, you know,
(33:45):
they've never really thoughtabout light.
Um, all they think about isyou'll flick on the light switch
and lights are available, andthat's all I need to know.
Um, and light is so much morethan vision.
It's uh most of the importanceof light is to do with health.
And um that's the message uhthat I'm looking to get out in
whatever creative ways I can.
Dr Andrew Greenland (34:07):
Well, on that note, Martin, thank you so
much for your time thisafternoon.
It's been such a thoughtfulconversation.
Really appreciate yourinsights, not just around light
and health, but also how you'rekind of trying to get your
mission out to more people anddo some wonderful, wonderfully
good work.
So thank you very much for yourtime.
Uh, very happy to put yourdetails of your book on the
website and any other detailsyou'd like us to promote for
(34:29):
you.
Um, but thank you again foryour time, really appreciate it.
It's been a very interestingconversation.
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (34:34):
Well, thank you, Andrew.
I've enjoyed it.
Welcome to Voices in Health and Wellness.
This is the show where weexplore what's next in patient
care, clinic innovation, andwellness delivery.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and todaywe're joined by someone who's
been at the forefront oftranslating science into
real-world clinical impact, Dr.
Martin Moore Eed.
Martin is a medical doctor andcircadian scientist who spent
decades researching how lightaffects human biology.
(00:22):
He's the founder ofthelightdoctor.com and also
leads Circadian, a global leaderin fatigue, risk management and
24-7 workforce solutions.
His work has helped shift howhospitals, clinics, and
corporations think aboutlighting, not just for
visibility, but for health.
So, Martin, thank you very muchfor joining us and welcome to
the show.
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (00:41):
Well, Andrew, it's delight to be with
you and uh look forward to theconversation.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:46):
So maybe we could start at the top.
Could you talk a little bitabout um your role of the light
doctor and circadian and howthis fits into the broader
mission of improving healthoutcomes?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (00:57):
Yes, the whole issue is that um awareness
of the healthiness of light uhyou know dates back.
Florence Nightingale knew thatit was one of the most important
things that patients should getaccess uh to sunlight during
the day and being asleep in thedark at night, uh, written up in
her textbook of 1860.
(01:17):
By the turn of the century, uhpeople were being put outside in
the sunshine, um, used curingall sorts of ills.
But we've got very lax to dowith light um uh with all our
you know fascination with moderntechnology, antibiotics, um,
and the rest of modern medicine,that actually uh we've got
(01:38):
ourselves into a very adversesituation in that we're living
under very unhealthy lightingconditions.
So just explain it you know uhbriefly.
Um uh the for the first 10,000generations of human existence,
um, our ancestors uh livedoutside much of the time.
(01:58):
They're in bright daylight.
Uh they slept in the dark atnight.
They might have candles andwoodfires, but they basically
slept in the dark.
Um, and we've changed all that.
We've moved indoors about 95%of the time, it's indoors in
front of screens.
Um, we use lights that we nowknow are unhealthy.
So my whole work has been toidentify this.
(02:19):
Um it started back at HarvardMedical School, where I led the
team that identified the uhclock in the human brain, the
superchismatic nucleus, thecircadian clock.
We located it.
We figured it out for the firsttime that it was indeed
synchronized by light.
No one believed the clockexists or that light was the key
signal at that time.
And then from there, we figuredout how it related to all sorts
(02:43):
of medical uh disorders, um,you know, not just sleep and
fatigue, but also um immunedisorders, cancer, diabetes, and
the rest.
More recently, my work has beento look for solutions in
lighting because since about thelast 10 years, since about
2014, when LEDs were introduced,we've been under a very, very
(03:07):
artificial world driven by thevisual appearance of the light
and its so-called energyefficiency.
That's what's been the focus.
We got rid of incandescence,which actually we're now
learning are much healthier uhthan these LED lights.
We got rid of halogen lights.
Um, these the sort of the wholeenergy climate change, I fully
(03:29):
agree with you know, doing whatwe can to save the planet, but
not at the cost of human health.
So, my my work has been inacademia at Harvard Medical
School for 23 years, um, inconsulting to industry, that's
the firm Circadian I founded 42years ago with offices around
the world, how you translatethis science into the workforce,
(03:49):
health, well-being, sickness,absenteeism, productivity, uh,
accidents, injuries, and soforth.
But more recently, intoactually seeing if we're going
into a new field, which is howdo you create LED lights, um,
how do you create lighting, uh,to actually identify the precise
part of the light spectrum thatis causing the havoc.
(04:13):
The beauty is that it'sactually a very narrow band of
blue in the light spectrumthat's causing the problem.
Um, and so that's that that's asort of a brief summary, and
then we can dive into where youwant to go.
Dr Andrew Greenland (04:25):
Lovely.
So, was there a kind of keyturning point that made you
realize that light was beingunderleveraged in clinical care?
Because you've obviously hadthis very long journey of
interest in light, but what wasthe point when you realized ah,
there's really something in thisclinically?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (04:39):
Well, I think the the big issue turning
point was around the year 2000when three major studies came
out identifying the rate ofbreast cancer being, you know,
50% or more greater in peoplewho were exposed to light at
night.
And that was people whetherthey were sleeping with the
lights on or people working atnight.
Um, and that then led to theWorld Health Organization in
(05:02):
2007 coming out with aproclamation or a um decision
that there was a uh it was acarcinogen, essentially, light
at night.
That then led um the I wasalready by my consulting firm
consulting to over half theFortune 500 around the world.
And they came to me and said,Martin, what can we do?
We can't do a thing, you know,we can't turn the lights out, we
(05:24):
can't shut down our businesses,we have to run around the
clock, we're running oilrefineries, railroads, airlines,
you name it, you know, um, wehave to run nuclear power, etc.
We have to run non-stop.
And um, that's when I startedto get serious about oh my gosh,
there's a whole and by the way,other disorders were rapidly
(05:45):
identified in terms of diabetes,heart disease, immune
disorders, and and many more.
So it was clear that we had torethink lighting, and yet the
whole lighting industry wasracing towards this um these
blue pump LEDs they use, whichis the most efficient way uh to
convert electricity into light,and regulations were put in
(06:08):
place that were constrainingthis, and as I say,
incandescence will be banned.
And so that's the real turningpoint was realizing that here's
all this sickness.
It's clearly related toill-design, not fit for purpose
lighting in terms of humanhealth.
It's fit for purpose in termsof vision, you might even argue
that um quality of light, butit's certainly not fit for
(06:30):
purpose in terms of humanhealth, and yet the lighting
industry fundamentally doesn'tthink about health when they're
selling lights, they're thinkingabout aesthetics and about
energy utility bill costs.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (06:44):
Interesting.
So, what do you and what's yourtypical day look like at the
moment?
Are you still hands-on?
Are you more focused on theresearch and development side?
What's your kind of typical umway that you deal with do all
this work?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (06:57):
Well, first of all, the consulting firm I
founded, um, I built a verystrong team around the world,
and uh my son Andrew actuallyshowed a real affinity for this.
Uh, and so I was able, as I gotinto this, um, taking a detour
um out in terms of developinglighting, having to start a
business, um, venture capital,you know, capital and all the
(07:19):
rest of it to get that lightingbusiness going.
Um, I handed over theconsulting firm to Andrew, and
he's running that today, and hedoes it very well.
So I just keep a, you know,other than keeping an eye on
that, um, I'm not directlyinvolved.
Uh, my day is uh largely uh I'min the and as I say, the last
(07:39):
10 years I've been inventing andputting into practice and so
forth, and then selling thetechnology to a major lighting
company where I served as chiefmedical advisor for the
transition.
So my day today iscommunicating.
I mean, the biggest problem isgetting the message out there.
Um, it is uh, you know, likeit's like DDT before Silver
(08:04):
Spring, you know, before uhSilent Spring.
Um uh Rachel Carson's book,which is over 50 years now,
everyone was using DDT, sprayingon everybody, causing all sorts
of um ill health, and the bookcame out and it changed the um
changed the whole view of it andit was banned after a while.
So I've got a little mission inhand in the saying, look, light
(08:26):
is as important as anythingelse, um, and we use incredibly
unhealthy lights.
And now if you've got a problembut not a solution, that's not
too helpful.
But actually, there are nowsolutions.
We now have various types oflight sources that are directly
evidence-based proven to bebeneficial for health.
(08:47):
In other words, we can solvethis problem.
So the barrier is education.
The problem in a market isalways lining companies will
say, well, we'll can build thisstuff, but will anybody buy it?
And if no one buys it, we'lljust won't continue to build it.
So you have to have theconsumer demand, but consumers
don't know what they want orwhat they need, and so it's this
(09:10):
um education effort.
Um, and so uh I've that's thereal shtick I'm on.
It's podcasts such as this,it's a book I've written called
The Light Doctor.
Um sales uh, you know, it cameout last year.
Sales are climbing just in thelast month, it's been increased,
ramping up 20-fold above theprevious months.
(09:31):
I mean, so it's starting toreally take off.
Uh, a lot of people buyingbecause it's a book.
If I can just give a brief uhstatement about it, it's a book
that explains this to the everyperson.
In other words, it's aimed atthe average person who's
interested, explains it all,explains what the problem is,
explains the solution, explainshow you can find the solutions
(09:52):
and so forth.
Um, and sort of translates thisscience uh for a for a general
uh general audience.
Um, and that is something thatI'm doing there.
Um, and I'm also you knowwriting articles.
I have a Substack newsletterevery week or every couple of
weeks that I get out on this.
Um, and I've got various socialmedia channels like Instagram
(10:15):
and uh um and LinkedIn where I'mum again pushing out that
message and it's gatheringspeed, which is exciting.
So that's my effort is how dowe get the word out there?
Because unless there's ademand, you know, um then the
solutions don't come.
You've got you've a chicken andegg, you've got to solve both
(10:37):
at the same time.
Dr Andrew Greenland (10:38):
Got it.
So thank you for mentioningyour book, and we will put the
details of your book on thepodcast website so people can
get some more information andget a copy.
Um, I'm doing my bit forpatient education.
I talk a lot about light infunctional medicine, probably
not to your level, but um, I doreference you know the whole
issue around blue light screensand the quality of light in the
household.
So I take a very holisticapproach to chronic illness.
(11:00):
But what do you think are thebig things that people do not
know about light?
What are the the holes in themessaging that you're trying to
fill with your communication andyour messaging?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (11:10):
Well, it's not a question of colour, in
other words, people think justby changing the colour, a warm
colour versus a cool colour, youknow, and that the problem with
that is it's still for mostlights in the stores today, that
it's based on a blue pump.
In other words, it's um it's ablue LED chip that then has got
phosphors over it to createwhite light, but essentially you
(11:33):
still get a big spike of blue.
So, people, it's not just aquestion of color tuning, that's
not the solution.
Um, it's really the content oflight.
But it's hard to see thecontent of light, what's in the
light.
Um, basically, for you know,just for explaining to a general
audience, uh, white light islike um it's comprised of all
(11:54):
the colors of the rainbow.
Um, it's also comprised ofultraviolet light you can't see,
and infrared light that youcan't see.
That's natural daylight.
Um, but with a spectral deviceslike spectrophotometer, you can
tease out every one of thosecolors, the the violets, the
blues, the um uh the greens, theyellows, the reds, and so
(12:15):
forth, and how much of each ofthat part of the spectrum.
And it turns out that everypart of that light spectrum has
some biological or medicalsignificance.
So it's fascinating.
You know, some of the lightthat's down at 380, which is in
the deep, deep violet, barelyvisible, is actually um has an
effect on blood flow in the eyein the developing eye and
(12:37):
whether you're going to getmyopia as a child or not.
Um, and yet we block that umwith our windows, we block that
out.
Uh, if you go to the violet,it's on the violet, it's a
disinfectant of the 405.
Down to 420, uh, a violet uhblue color.
Uh, you that's a that that's apart of the spectrum that is um
(12:57):
alerting.
It actually produces cognitiveperformance and alertness.
Uh, as you get into the um, asI say, we've talked about the
aqua uh blue or uh um the uharound 480, which is the
circadian clock resetting, andall this you can be mapping by
receptors in the eye, uh opsin,which are the photochemicals
that are detecting it, differentopsins.
(13:19):
Um, and then of course, whenyou get into the uh red part of
the spectrum, that now is shownto be very important in terms of
um uh cell cellular health andhealing.
Healing happens much fasterwith red light.
And when you get into the nearinfrared, fascinating, this is
the spectrum that's you justcan't see, but it's still lots
of it in sunlight, itcontributes to warmth.
(13:41):
Lots of it, by the way, inincandescent light bulbs that
we're missing today.
But that is penetrating thebody.
So sunlight goes all the waythrough the human body and out
the other side.
People don't realize the thatinfrared portion of it, and what
that does is generatemitochondrial performance.
Mitochondria are those littleorganelles inside cells, the
(14:02):
little energy-producing packetsproduce the ATP, uh, produce the
energy uh in the body, and alsouh and they're critical to
health, and um, they get boostedby that infrared.
So, one of the bottom lines, bythe way, is never want to miss
it on any conversation, get outin the morning every day.
(14:22):
By the way, the big effects arein the morning, particularly in
the first half of the morning.
That's when the glue is socritical to setting the second
clock.
That's when the infrared is soeffective at boosting and uh and
uh uh improving glucosemetabolism, but also increasing
mitochondrial function andenergy production.
So we're learning it, it's it'sa rapidly developing new papers
(14:46):
coming out every day, veryrapidly developing area.
But we know enough now to knowthat sunlight is enormously
helpful, and we know also know alot to know that blue rich
light at night is enormouslyharmful, and so we know enough
to start designing solutionswhich are going to get better
and better over time.
Dr Andrew Greenlan (15:06):
Interesting.
I mean, I'm getting patients todo a lot of the things that you
talk about, so this really,really resonates.
Um, are you seeing moreawareness or demand around
topics like light exposure,sleep health, circadian
alignment from younger patients?
Do you get any sense of youngerpatients more aware of this
stuff, or are you really havingto educate everybody?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (15:26):
Well, I think it's educating everybody
at this stage.
Um, and um, it certainly isinteresting.
I I see a broad spectrum ofpeople, they come from different
areas.
Um, you know, the audience thatI end up speaking to most of
the time are health consciouspeople, particularly people get
health conscious, most healthconscious, I find, when they get
(15:46):
married or get have a partnerand they start having children
and they start concerned abouttheir health and their child's
health is a very good time.
So health conscious parents isa great uh group of people.
Um, but I'm also seeing a lotof interest in in an aging
population because exposure tolight daylight is amazing,
(16:08):
effects and in fact increasinglifespan for up to five years,
longevity, not healthylongevity.
Uh, golfers, for example, whoplay a lot of golf, they're
gonna spend two, three, fourhours out when they play that
golf outside, live five yearslonger.
That's 300,000 golfers inSweden compared to 300,000
(16:30):
age-matched, socioeconomicallymatched non-golfers, right?
Five years extra life.
Um, and I don't think it's allthe exercise of swinging the
club.
I think a lot of it's got to dowith the sunlight.
So learning that longevityquestion.
And then, as I say, I thinkthere is um the lighting
industry is um fascinated bythis.
I mean, they see this.
I think there's a generalacceptance of the lighting
(16:52):
industry, all lights are gonnabe circadian.
Um, I led a team of 250scientists around the world
who've done and published themost work in this area and
published it recently, came outthis consensus study that all
lights are going to be need tobe circadian.
The industry gets that.
They just are waiting for thisdemand to justify the investment
(17:15):
and walking away from what theytraditionally do.
Right now, unfortunately, 98%of what they produce on the
store shelves and installed inbuildings is these um unhealthy
static blue-rich lights.
And static means they don'tchange.
Critical thing about lightinghas to change.
What you need to see during theday is radically different from
what you need to see uh duringthe nighttime hours.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:38):
Got it.
What um happened during thepandemic?
Because we were stuck insidefor long periods of time.
Did you notice anything from aclinical scientific point of
view around lighting and um howit affected us all?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (17:51):
Oh, I think it was part of the general
malaise and ill health and soforth at that time.
Um I I do know, I mean, I thinkthe most um insightful studies
are some of these, uh, forexample, the Biobank study done
in the UK.
Uh 86,000 people who were givenlight meters to track how much
(18:12):
light they saw during the uhthey were exposed to during the
daytime and then during thenighttime.
And if you divide it up thethose who saw the most daytime
light, um they had lessdiabetes, less cardiovascular
disease, and so forth, um, lesspsychiatric illness.
In fact, the difference betweenabout a 20-30% difference in
(18:32):
psychiatric depression, anxiety,and a lot of the ills of our
time, quite frankly, I think canbe associated with being
indoors.
Um, I've been reading papersrecently suggesting that the
crisis of infertility, inpartly, you know, in declining,
you know, we're not meeting the2.2 child children per woman
(18:55):
needed to sustain a population,is partly related to sperm
motility and so forth, andthat's in turn related to light
exposures.
I think we're finding there's aso many parts of our modern
life uh are fault.
Now, what we've done, by theway, you might say, what was the
lifespan when Edison inventedthe light bulb?
(19:15):
Well, the average lifespan was39 years.
Now our average lifespan ismaybe 79 years or 78 years,
somewhere like that for theaverage person.
Um might say, well, gosh, youknow, changing the LED lights
has clearly been that would be atotally false conclusion.
Um, in fact, our lifespan isplateaued with it went down
(19:36):
during COVID.
It really has barely crept up,and we're sort of stuck there.
I think there's a potential toincrease the average lifespan by
five, 10 years.
Um, uh if we got our lightinguh diet right.
And I use the word diet, by theway, intentionally because huge
attention to nutrition.
I mean, one of the first thingsthat struck me is I wrote my
(19:58):
book, The Light Doctor.
Um, it's called Using Light toBoost Health, Improve Sleep, and
Live Longer.
Subtitle, it's available onAmazon and in your local
bookshore.
Um, but when I wrote that book,I went to some of the
publishing houses and I realizedoh my gosh, um, Penguin Random
House, the largest public houseof um publisher in the world.
(20:20):
1800 books on their list,active list about diets and
nutrition.
1800 books.
One book on their list aboutlighting and health, and that
was in 1913, I'm sorry, 19 um itwas uh came out 19.
(20:41):
Well, it came out before LEDlights existed, right?
The only book on on the list.
So it was like so.
We use the word light diet.
That whole process of what youknow, what is your light diet?
Is your traditional diet?
What is junk food?
What is junk light?
What is ultra-processed light,the LEDs, junk, ultra-processed
(21:04):
light, junk, ultra-processedfood.
Let's translate that language.
It's exactly equivalent, uh,it's a wonderful simile.
Um, and uh I think it gets themessage across.
So that's one of the messagescan people think, and that's why
I say, you know, the light wesee is important to our health
as the food we eat, the water wedrink, and the air we breathe.
(21:25):
Um, and that's that's thebottom line message of my book,
um, uh The Light Doctor.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:31):
Thank you.
So, what's working really wellwith your mission and business
right now?
I mean, obviously it is amission, it's also a business,
but what's working particularlywell for you right now?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (21:41):
Well, it's a really a mission, it's a
mission business, yes.
I mean, in other words, the thebusiness is decided one way or
the other stuff has to be paidfor.
When I was in academia atHarvard Medical School for 23
years, um, I had to go out andget all those uh government
grants.
Um, fortunately, I moved overto the US because of that, quite
frankly, because the difficultygetting sizable funding.
(22:03):
Uh, that's why I went over toHarvard to do my PhD instead of
doing it in in the UK.
Um, and I got grants from NASA,National Institute of Health,
National Science Foundation,millions of dollars.
By the way, I'm so glad I'm notdoing it in the current era,
our current administration inthe US, I'd be stymied totally.
And so, but let's get asidefrom politics here.
(22:26):
Um, but I was able to do a lotof work with that funding.
But that's funding, all right?
And so you're you and and thosefoundations and others that are
founding you, that's a source.
If you want to go out and do itwithout applying for government
grants and funding, which is along process, then you have to
money has to come in somewhere.
It either has to be a businessthat creates money, um, you
(22:47):
know, whether it's selling booksor consulting services and so
forth, um, or it has to be aproduct and so forth.
So uh, and to get there, youyou also need to raise money
out.
Well, either way around, itcomes I actually like the
freedom that we have um to goexactly the direction we want.
Um, and where them, you know,and and and that's uh and and so
(23:09):
I've been fine, I've done itboth ways, um non-profit and
for-profit.
And it it actually, I thinkthere's some real advantages for
the for-profit in terms of uhuh the flexibility to to follow
your nose in the direction youwant to go.
Dr Andrew Greenland (23:25):
Okay, I'm I'm guessing that the the entire
world is your total addressablemarket, but where do you see
the most traction with this?
I mean, is it corporatehospitals, private practices, um
domestic?
Where's where's the mosttraction with what you do?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (23:39):
Well, I think there are some places
where human performance isabsolutely critical.
Uh, and those are that's wheremy consulting practice is
focused, which is 24-7operations.
If you're running somethingseamlessly 24-7, it's a control
room of an oil refinery or apower plant, or uh it is a major
(24:04):
airline or whatever it is,there we find the most interest
because it really matters as tothe performance of those people.
You can't afford errors.
Um, you know, I I think youknow, when we started, we were
pointing out that the majoraccidents of the last 50 years,
uh, Three Mile Island,Chernobyl, um the Bopol instant
(24:27):
uh chemical spill and and soforth, the XMFLDs all occurred
in the middle of the night um infatigue people.
Um and so that was one of theoriginal um emphases of what
we're thinking about.
But that critical performance,and so yes, so we started we
when we originally developedthese lights that's that bury
(24:48):
the circadian, in other words,rich in blue during the day,
zero blue at night, um, we putthem into our first uptake point
was um uh the 24-7 operations,uh, put into 65 different
Fortune 500 companies, adoptedthe lighting, and so that was
the first place we got got goingbecause they really care about
(25:11):
the end result, um, the bottomline.
We're now seeing a lot ofconsumer interest.
Um, the technology that I wasinvolved in inventing and
patenting and so forth, and thenuh selling to a major lighting
company is now being put intolight bulbs for the home.
That's a big market, a lot ofpeople concern.
And so uh we chorus producesthe oyo, that's OIO, uh the
(25:35):
circadian light bulbs.
Um, that again is we can giveyou the website address for
that.
But those light bulbsautomatically deliver the right
formula, as it were, dependingon the time of day, and they do
it automatically, so you don'thave to run around and change
light bulbs or switch things onand off.
Um, that can be done allautomatically now in a light
(25:55):
bulb.
So that's the home market.
I think hospitals um uh shouldbe um a key target.
Uh, unfortunately, um they're atougher, tougher group to get
to change.
Um uh and um we've seen lesstraction there, although the
evidence now is pretty clearthat patients who are in rooms
(26:18):
with windows get out of the ICUand 30% sooner.
Um they get out there, theyrecover out of hospitals, they
get out of the hospitals a dayearlier, um, and so forth for
all sorts of conditions.
Um, so we know that this ishardly a new finding, as they
Florence Nightingale knew it in1860, but but you know, having
(26:42):
proper day lighting, windows andso forth, and not putting
people in windowless rooms isactually a pretty important part
of health.
And if you've got a windowlessroom, you should be putting in
circadian lighting into it,which has the right components
to it, uh, not just putting instatic LEDs.
Um, and so um, yeah, so that'spart of it.
(27:02):
I mean, I when I was uh Istarted off doing a surgical
internship uh on my way frommedical school through then to a
PhD at a surgical internship uhas a junior resident, and uh
and I was working these 36-hourlong shifts under bright
fluorescent lighting 24-7.
Um horrendous environment to beworking in, and you know, as I
(27:24):
say, uh that I aim to change ifI can, but that's the that's
probably the hardest.
Um, and we're seeing um variousuh office, I think wellness
buildings and so forth, thatpeople are becoming aware of it,
but it's uh um it's an areathat uh yeah, we've got a lot of
people starting to ask for it.
(27:44):
The key is getting to the rightperson.
Who buys the lights is the keyproblem.
So, for example, when we wereselling lights, we found the
lighting industry, when theysell lights, it's an incredibly,
I don't know if you know howmuch it works, incredibly
complex process.
They have marketing rep rep repcompanies that they sell that
(28:06):
that then and they then they'relighting designers and then
they're electrical contractors,and then they're distributors,
and by the end of the day, thelighting company that
manufactures lights has no ideawhere their lights go.
They have no idea whatsoever.
And all those people down thechain have no interest in human
health, they're just selling,trying to sell the light at the
(28:26):
cheapest cost they can to getthe project.
The problem is the personbuying the lights tends to be
the facility manager.
He's only concerned about theenergy costs of the building, no
incentive whatsoever to careabout the occupants.
So the the real insight therewas we've got to do something
different.
We've got to go great directlyto the person who's responsible
(28:49):
for the health and well-beingand performance of the
workforce.
And if you get to that person,it might be a VP of safety or
health, environment, it might bethe plant manager or the
operations manager that's got tohave an operation running
smoothly and effectively andreduced errors and so forth, and
you get them, give them thespecs, um spec lock, we call it,
(29:11):
right?
In other words, if you givethem a set of specs that none of
the regular lights can meet,and then give it to your
facilities manager and says thisis what you've got to buy, then
you can get the job done.
But most lighting companiesdon't have a clue how to operate
in that uh world, um, exceptfor one group, which is very
interesting, the horticultural,you know, the um uh the lights
(29:33):
for growing plants, um,everything from cannabis to
tomatoes to whatever else, um,that is actually sold that way.
They hire botanists to go andtalk to the owners who
themselves are often botanistswho have botanical training, uh,
to pick the right lightspectrum for health.
And the sale avoids all thischannel of um uh people in the
(29:58):
middle who actually quitefrankly.
Frankly, until recently, wehaven't been caring.
We're now educating them, Iwill say, and we're trying to do
very hard to try to educatethose channels.
But it's such an amorphous andinefficient way that lights are
sold today, that that's one ofone of the challenges.
You know, I'm digging you a bitinto the realities of the
problem.
Dr Andrew Greenland (30:17):
No, I was I was smiling, and um when you
were talking about hospitals,I'm still a hospital clinician
as well.
This completely resonatesbecause the entire hospital is
fitted with sort of cheap striplight.
And I'm basically subjected tothis on a daily basis, and there
are lots of windowless rooms,and you're right, the patients
are in windowless rooms.
So all of this stuff completelyresonates.
So I guess I mean, aside fromthe procurement, which I think
(30:39):
was what you were just detailingnow about the difficulty in
getting quality lighting into abig institution, are there any
other major sort of challengesor bottlenecks that you have in
the work that you do?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (30:49):
Well, one of the big bottlenecks has been
the product, because thelighting industry is um another
okay, this is an industry I'vehad to learn from scratch about,
right?
But uh a major lighting companyhas millions of SKUs.
In other words, millions andmillions, of slight varieties of
every type type light fixture.
(31:09):
You can't possibly make all ofthose circadian.
And so, but on the other hand,the customer in the lighting
industry is used to be able tochoose any um type of fixture
they want.
Um, and so we've got a balanceof saying, okay, there's only a
limited number of circadianfixtures, you can't have every
single one, um, because thatwould take an impossible amount
(31:30):
of time to do.
Um, and so that's one of thechallenges, also, is there.
But we're starting to see moreand more circadian lighting
products come in the market.
And as I say, it's it's a riskfor that lighting company to do
it because they don't knowwhether the market is there.
But on the other hand, youcan't sell them unless the
(31:50):
products are available.
So that's part of part of thechallenge, having having the
right mixture, whether it'stroughers, you know, those
ceiling fixtures, uh, whetherit's the linear type fixtures or
the down lights.
You know, you need the the sortof typical group of lighting uh
products in order to light aspace.
Dr Andrew Greenland (32:10):
So, Martin, what's next for you in the next
six to twelve months with youruh mission and your business?
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (32:16):
Well, I think uh it a little bit more of
the same.
Um I'm look I'm looking at thepossibility of producing a next
edition of the book because thescience is moving ahead.
Um, and that's a question, youknow, is it a brand new book or
is it um you know an updatedversion of the present one?
So that's something I'm reallylooking at.
Um, but I think right nowthere's you know the the core
(32:40):
message is has been resonatingso well with the Light Doctor
that I'm um really focusing ontrying to get uh trying to find
you know how to get that uhlarger audience.
Um I did a lot of work in theyou know my early days at
Harvard, um a lot of uh media uhopportunity, you know, I was
(33:01):
all over the BBC and um I did aone-hour documentary for the BBC
um about the science of fatigueand circadian clocks and so
forth.
Um I think we need to do onelike that, uh do a documentary
or something like that on thistopic.
Um, I um was also on theToday's show, Good Morning
(33:22):
America, and all those.
So, you know, the size of theaudience matters in terms of
reach.
So I'm um so I talk to anywhereI can, uh including your
podcast, um, but I'm looking toget that word out um to a
broader audience.
And you know, I think peopleneed to hear the message, and I
find that it resonates extremelywell.
Most people have not got a clueabout this topic, you know,
(33:45):
they've never really thoughtabout light.
Um, all they think about isyou'll flick on the light switch
and lights are available, andthat's all I need to know.
Um, and light is so much morethan vision.
It's uh most of the importanceof light is to do with health.
And um that's the message uhthat I'm looking to get out in
whatever creative ways I can.
Dr Andrew Greenland (34:07):
Well, on that note, Martin, thank you so
much for your time thisafternoon.
It's been such a thoughtfulconversation.
Really appreciate yourinsights, not just around light
and health, but also how you'rekind of trying to get your
mission out to more people anddo some wonderful, wonderfully
good work.
So thank you very much for yourtime.
Uh, very happy to put yourdetails of your book on the
website and any other detailsyou'd like us to promote for
(34:29):
you.
Um, but thank you again foryour time, really appreciate it.
It's been a very interestingconversation.
Dr Martin Moore-Ede (34:34):
Well, thank you, Andrew.
I've enjoyed it.
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