May 16, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when speech therapists decide the standard approach to autism therapy isn't serving children properly? In this eye-opening conversation, Hayley and Jenna share how they created Adaptive Path, a revolutionary early childhood intervention program in Austin that's challenging the status quo.
The founders reveal how the explosion of Applied Behavioral Analysis (ABA) therapy—often prescribed at an exhausting 40 hours weekly for preschoolers—has created a system where parents must choose between intensive therapy or education for their autistic children. Their solution? A multidisciplinary approach that brings speech therapy, occupational therapy, and early childhood education together under one roof.
"Non-speaking doesn't mean non-learning," Hayley emphasizes, articulating their core philosophy that autistic children shouldn't have to "earn" their education by demonstrating neurotypical behaviors first. Their program maintains developmentally appropriate hours (8:30-2:30) with one-to-one support during typical preschool activities—combining the benefits of therapy with the essential social and educational experiences all children need.
The conversation explores how millennial parents are demanding more thoughtful, holistic approaches for their children, and how insurance-driven healthcare creates unexpected challenges for innovative practitioners. From navigating fire suppression system requirements to managing Gen Z employees, Hayley and Jenna offer a candid look at the entrepreneurial journey of building a mission-driven healthcare business.
Whether you're a parent exploring options for an autistic child, a healthcare professional seeking better models, or simply interested in how determined entrepreneurs can create positive change, this discussion provides valuable insights into the evolving landscape of neurodevelopmental support. Subscribe to hear more conversations with founders reshaping healthcare delivery for the better.
📇 Guest Contact & Social Info
Guests:
- Haley Broocks, Co-Founder, Speech-Language Pathologist
- Jenna Kellog, Co-Founder, Clinical Operations Lead
Organization: Adaptive Path
Location: Austin, Texas
Website: https://adaptive-path.com
Email: haley@adaptive-path.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:03):
Welcome back to Voices in Health and
Wellness.
This is the podcast where wespotlight the founders, the
clinicians and change makers,reshaping how care is delivered,
experienced and understood.
I'm your host, dr AndrewGreenland, and today I'm
thrilled to welcome twoincredibly thoughtful guests.
We have Hayley and Jenna,co-founders of Adaptive Path in
Austin, texas.
Adaptive Path is a growingforce in early childhood
(00:25):
intervention, offering a freshand deeply human alternative to
traditional therapeutic modelsfor autistic preschoolers, with
a focus on parent-centeredcollaboration, developmental
respect and the evolving needsof today's families, hayley and
Jenna are meeting a newgeneration of caregivers right
where they are.
So, hayley and Jenna, thank youvery much for joining me on
(00:46):
this podcast today.
You're calling from Austin,texas, I believe.
Hayley Broocks (00:51):
We are.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:52):
So why don't we start with adaptive?
Sorry, Karen.
Hayley Broocks (00:56):
Thank you for having us.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:57):
No, you're very welcome.
So let's start with adaptivepath.
Could you perhaps tell us alittle bit about what gap you
saw in traditional therapyoptions that made you want to
create something a bit differentand perhaps talk a little bit
about what adaptive path doesand your respective roles within
it?
Hayley Broocks (01:14):
sure?
Um, we're both speech andlanguage pathologists.
We met in grad school manyyears ago I won't number them
and for the past decade or so Iin particular have worked in a
variety of clinics in the Austinarea that focused on providing
(01:35):
services for children withautism, and in the last few
years there's been an explosionof a particular kind of therapy
called ABA, because it ismandated to be covered by
commercial insurance here in theStates and when that happens,
venture capital and big moneytend to get involved, especially
(01:58):
here.
I know our health systems aredifferent and I just saw a push
towards ABA kind of taking overthe space and not leaving any
room for every other therapeuticdiscipline.
That's really important tochildren and also often at the
expense of education.
So we are trying to createsomething where every
(02:18):
therapeutic discipline, plusearly childhood education, have
a seat at the table.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:24):
Brilliant.
And what do you individually do, or do you have a sort of a
joint approach to this business?
Jenna Kellog (02:31):
It's a joint approach.
We're learning as we go.
Since we are both speechtherapists, though we're both
qualified to provide speechtherapy to all of our students
who are enrolled.
Hayley does most of the speechtherapy.
I do more of the admin side ofthings.
My career up until we startedAdaptive Path was in geriatrics,
(02:53):
so totally different world thanthis pediatric world.
But yeah, we're learning as wego, but Haley does more therapy.
I'm usually behind the computer.
I'll step in when needed,though.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:06):
I understand, and so I mean you
mentioned ABA and obviously it'sa term I hadn't quite heard of.
Can you perhaps talk about whatthat is and what the issues are
with it as you see it?
Hayley Broocks (03:15):
yeah.
So ABA stands for appliedbehavioral analysis.
It is a strictly behavioralapproach to supporting kids with
autism, which I do think isit's a necessary piece of the
puzzle, but it's not the wholething.
What ABA leaves out is thatthere often are physiological
(03:40):
reasons for things that arehappening with the child and the
behavior is a symptom of that,not like a cognitive choice that
that child might be making, ifthat makes sense.
But they treat everything likeit's a decision and when you
have sort of just that frameworkit's based on reinforcement of
(04:03):
positive things, so likepositive reinforcement for
positive things and then sort oflike ignoring anything negative
.
Unfortunately, toddlers can't beignored ever.
That's not good for them.
Often the only way that theyhave to communicate, especially
non-speaking toddlers, is crying, something you might call a
(04:24):
tantrum.
And if you haven't studiedchildhood development, which
these therapists aren't requiredto, you might end up
pathologizing just typical childbehavior and then ignoring that
communication isn't necessarilya great outcome.
So what I was seeing when I wasa speech therapist who would go
(04:45):
into these centers that didn'temploy any other kind of
professional who knew a lotabout child development, I would
see this pathologizing oftypical toddler behavior outside
of diagnosis and outside ofkind of typical things you would
normally expect a two or threeyear old to do Right.
Yeah, and that made me kind ofuncomfortable and I decided that
(05:10):
I think that it's better forour kids, and for any child,
really to have an occupationaltherapist on site, a speech
pathologist on site, a preschooleducator on site.
We all can't know everything.
I don't expect any professionalto know everything about a
child and their development, butI think we need to make room
(05:33):
for everyone to be a participant, because you can't just
prescribe this child 40 hours ofbehavior therapy and expect a
great outcome, which is what ishappening here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:44):
I understand.
So basically, by what you do,you have a sort of
multidisciplinary team approachthat you can offer more because
you've got more people with abetter understanding of the
various things that contribute.
Is that a fair thing to say inthe way that you do things?
Jenna Kellog (05:58):
Yes, definitely.
And then?
We add education.
So a lot of these big ABAclinics in this area add
education.
So a lot of these big ABAclinics in this area it's
strictly ABA.
There's no preschool education,there's no K through five
education.
These parents are having tochoose Either they go to ABA and
skip school, or they miss outon the ABA services because they
(06:23):
try to go to public school,which doesn't always work out
for those children either.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:28):
Really interesting.
What do you think is gettingmissed in that approach, then
that you're able to offersomething a bit different?
What are the kind of thingsthat you're picking up on that
this approach is just too rigidand standardized.
Hayley Broocks (06:40):
I think that there's so many differences in
our countries and how thingshappen and I don't necessarily
like I'm not saying universalhealth care is the only way to
go.
I honestly don't know what theanswer is, but I think some of
our issues come from us nothaving that.
For example, like these big ABAclinics that we're talking
(07:00):
about, they are only, like,incredibly abundant in states
where you can choose to opt outof public school for this
therapy.
Like, if you look at a map ofwhere all these clinics are,
they're only in states thatdon't have strict public
education laws, because theyknow they can keep these kids
till they're eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, and bill their insurance
(07:22):
for 40 hours a week from age twoto age 12.
So I think I don't want to like,I don't want to be too negative
about it, because we use it.
I think it's a great tool.
It just has to be usedappropriately.
Jenna Kellog (07:41):
Yeah, and ABA has a bad reputation, at least here,
for I mean a lot of the reasonsHaley mentioned.
But if you're a three-year-oldwho's prescribed 40 hours of
behavior therapy a week, whenare you going to learn You're
not.
Hayley Broocks (08:01):
Yeah, you're not .
Yeah, basically, and all theprofessionals I want to say the
professionals I've met in thisindustry have great intentions.
They're incredible.
People usually care so muchabout their patients.
It's the overarching systemthat creates this kind of
pipeline that I don't think hasgreat outcomes pipeline that I
(08:26):
don't think has great outcomes.
So we basically try to make itlike a natural environment to
childhood, where you're in aclassroom with eight other kids
your age.
You're not locked in a tinyroom with one therapist who's
asking you memorizationquestions 10 times an hour.
We have almost two acres ofoutside space.
We're outside all the time.
Jenna Kellog (08:44):
we're just it's childhood, but supported by
therapists, if that makes sensewe want to be the bridge between
you know, if if a child needsaba, then they need aba, but at
some point they're going to ageout and they need to be able to
go to school, whether that'spublic school or private school,
whatever the family chooses.
But there has to be some kindof bridge between, I mean, can
(09:09):
they participate in a classroomenvironment, can they manage
sharing the classroom toys withtheir peers, and those are
things that we can work onnaturally in our environment and
then have them ready to go toschool once parents are ready,
and that have them ready to goto school once you know parents
are ready and that child isready too.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:29):
So how long is the program?
Because you meant this is forpreschoolers by what you're
saying.
So how long is?
How long would you need with achild to kind of get them to a
point where they could perhapsgo into mainstream education?
Hayley Broocks (09:41):
Well, we hope to get them early.
Our ages are two to six.
We won't kick you out whenyou're six.
We'll keep you until yourseventh birthday, because in
Texas you don't have to startpublic school until you're seven
.
If that's what you're going todo is to, instead of kids ending
(10:06):
up in these 40-hour clinicswhen they're two, we really hope
they come to us and get thisearly intervention from a
multidisciplinary team in a morenatural environment so that if,
hopefully, when they do go onto public school, it's not like
a shock that you know they'vebeen in this room with one
therapist for four years,whereas with us they've been in
a group of students with acurriculum, learning with a
(10:29):
teacher, following teacherguidelines and following the
structure of a classroom.
And I think too, there's this.
It's kind of an oddjuxtaposition because I don't
know if you've noticed, ourcountry is very political Really
.
No, you picked up on that.
We kind of choose sides hereand we're either on like one
(10:52):
extreme or the other.
We're not at all.
We're here for the entirespectrum, but a lot it's
everything is very much likeneurodiversity.
Affirming right now is like kindof the I would say the key,
like the key term, the hip term,which we are too.
That's incredible.
We all should be moresupportive, accommodating and
(11:14):
just compassionate people.
However, it's a spectrum.
There's a variety of needs, ofneeds, and sometimes there's
(11:35):
like discord within thecommunity itself about sort of
the best practice.
Like some people who have maybelower support needs children
think there should be nointervention at all, whereas
parents of children with highsupport needs are kind of
desperate for as much support asthey can get, and it's sort of
our goal to provide all of that,even like beyond the services
(11:57):
that we offer every day in ourclassrooms.
But you know, we have a contactwho her whole job is like
financial planning for familieswho may end up with a child that
needs to be supported for alifetime, versus just till 18
years old.
Um, things that are hard tothink about when your child is
preschool age, but sometimesnecessary.
(12:19):
Um, we support families if theywant to seek out any kind of
biomedical intervention, whichis a big divide here.
Some people think that that'slike searching for a cure and so
it's not, as accepted,appropriate.
(12:41):
But I mean the truth of thematter is there's physiological
dysfunction in children who arediagnosed with autism, gut
health issues, motor deficits,sleep issues, seizure activity,
brain inflammation.
Those are all things that canbe addressed and if it's not
(13:01):
necessarily looking for a cure,it's trying to support your
child so they can be their bestself.
Jenna Kellog (13:07):
We're very supportive of that and big
proponents of the parents ofthese kiddos are the parents.
They get to choose what othertherapies they choose for their
child and we're just here tosupport that where they may not
find that support in otherplaces.
Hayley Broocks (13:24):
Yeah, you get a lot of rolling eyes in other
places.
Dr Andrew Greenland (13:27):
Really Okay .
Is there a sense of conflict indoing this alternative approach
, which is not the mainstream,which is not the mandated thing
that everybody else gets?
Is there a conflict in doingthat kind of thing or are you
able to happily get on and offeryour multidisciplinary,
holistic approach without toomany problems?
Pretty much to happily get onand, you know, offer your
multidisciplinary, holisticapproach without too many
problems pretty much we the.
Jenna Kellog (13:50):
I would say like maybe the only pushback we've
had actually might come fromparents who have taken their
child to a neurologist and theneurologist says you need ABA,
you need 40 hours of ABA a week.
And they come to us and we saywe don't do 40 hours a week,
(14:11):
that's not age appropriate forages two to six.
You know we have a typicalpreschool day with typical
preschool hours and there areparents who have heard what that
doctor said and think that well, the doctor said my child needs
40 hours, why are you notproviding 40 hours?
So that's probably that's all Ican think of as maybe some,
(14:36):
some questions or some pushback.
Can you think of anything else?
Hayley Broocks (14:39):
Um, I think.
Um, we use enough of like ourphilosophies buzzwords on our
website to attract the kind offamilies who would seek us out
anyway.
I think we're well aware thatthere are some therapists in
mainstream therapy who disagreeand wouldn't encourage families
(15:02):
to seek out other types oftherapy or, you know, change a
diet or anything like that.
But what are you going to do?
Jenna Kellog (15:11):
I think that the parents who are coming to us are
parents who are alsolike-minded.
You know they're.
They're searching for the sametype of treatment that we
provide and insurance should behappy that we're only requesting
30 hours versus 40.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:29):
So what does um, what does a typical day
look like, if there is such athing in your world?
Jenna Kellog (15:37):
well, guess it's a silly question well, we do have
just like a typical preschoolschedule.
So kids are dropped off in themorning and we try to spend
about 30 minutes outside,weather permitting.
You know, we want as muchvitamin D as we can get and then
we transition inside theclassroom where the teacher
(15:57):
starts with some circle time.
So, just like any other typicalpreschool, you're going to sit
around, sing some songs, talkabout the weather and the months
, the days of the year, thingslike that, and then we kind of
just work in like a 15 minuteincrement of a schedule for
those kiddos who can participate.
It is not required thateveryone be participating doing
(16:18):
the same thing at every you know, every minute of the day.
Obviously, some behaviors justdon't allow for that, and we're
very aware of when a kid needs abreak, when they need to go
outside, when they you know theycan't be sitting at the table.
It's you know, it's too much,it's too overwhelming.
They need a break from theclassroom.
But we do try to just follow aloose school schedule.
(16:41):
So there are, you know, there'sarts and crafts through the day
.
There's story time in theafternoon.
There's your you know yoursnack break, your lunch break,
your you know, we're outsideplaying as much as we can, and
then we're.
You know we try to get thekiddos back inside for the next.
You know maybe some math, maybewe're doing a math activity at
the table, or you know a scienceexperiment with paint and
(17:05):
bubbles and water and what sinksand what floats and just things
that any child who's attendingany preschool our kiddos are
getting the same type ofeducation.
Hayley Broocks (17:17):
Yeah, just because you know I'm not saying
most, but a large portion of ourchildren are non-speaking.
But non-speaking doesn't meannon-learning, and I think that's
the problem with otherfacilities that you know.
They claim to be soneuroaffirming and ascent-based,
but they're not providing thesame education that any
(17:39):
three-year-old in preschoolwould get.
So to me it's like how is thatneuroaffirming If you're saying
that you have to earn youreducation by graduating from
your type of therapy?
That doesn't sound veryneuroaffirming to me.
Just because you might learndifferently or it might look
different from the outsidedoesn't mean it's not happening,
and so that's our whole thing.
We don't care if you're notsitting at circle time.
(18:01):
If you're in the room, you'rehearing what your friends are
saying, you're hearing the story, you are exposed to it, and
that's really what is soimportant to us.
We don't care what it lookslike.
We want to give you theopportunity to receive the same
like early childhood educationthat any child would receive
that my kid in preschool isgetting right now.
It doesn't matter to us ifyou're sitting on the floor.
(18:25):
If you're laying on the floor,if you're across the room, if
you have headphones on, ifyou're looking like you're not
participating, it doesn't matter.
We want you to have theopportunity.
Jenna Kellog (18:35):
And each of our kiddos has a one-to-one
therapist who's with themthrough the day, so they have
that adult support to.
You know, at least try toencourage a kid to hey, look,
you know, it's time for circletime, let's go sit on our yellow
dot.
And if they can do it, great,and if they can't, that's okay.
But they do have thatone-to-one therapist with them
through the day for that support.
(18:56):
And then Hayley and I, you know, can push in for speech therapy
through the day as well great,so you're clearly creating
something new.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:05):
Um I already have, I guess.
How do you see um the therapyand wellness space evolving for
preschool aged autistic learners?
Jenna Kellog (19:14):
oh, gosh, we hope this model takes off yeah, that
other that I mean, at some pointin time other clinics are gonna
have to start and you know,including education in their
model.
I mean that would.
That's the goal.
I don't know how we accomplishthat, but no aba.
Hayley Broocks (19:35):
The explosion of it here in the states is it's
really been the last like fiveto ten years, where I mean there
are, there are I couldn't evenguess.
I know of like one specificbrand of this huge clinic.
There's like 37 of them inAustin alone, um.
So I think it's going to take aminute because there's a lot of
(19:55):
big money in it right now, um,but I also think that the
success rate is not great andit's really sad to say, but it's
like the, the generation rightnow, the cohort of these kids,
they're the ones who are gonnagrow up in this and we're gonna
see what happens.
We, I didn't want to wait tosee what happened because I I
(20:20):
hope I'm wrong, I hope I wrong,but I don't necessarily think
it's going to be the bestpossible outcome.
We are deep in the early days ofthe new business right now.
But, like you know, we're likefive years from now and we have
time.
We're going to, you know, lobbythe Texas legislation about.
You shouldn't be able to take akid for 40 hours and not
(20:43):
provide them education.
Like we don't understand howthat's legal.
It seems sort of like a nobrainer to us, but everything is
so new that there's really notthat much regulation around it.
Like, as practitioners, we'revery regulated and the
therapists who provide thetherapy are regulated, but like,
the industry is not regulated,if that makes sense, I
(21:04):
understand.
So you know that's ourfive-year plan go to the capital
, but we're pretty busy rightnow.
One day, one day we'll getthere.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:13):
What about millennial parents, in terms of
what they might be asking?
Yeah, absolutely.
Hayley Broocks (21:19):
I just wondered whether that's their demands or
their requests perhaps differentto what they would have been
asking for a few years ago.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:22):
Be asking yeah, absolutely.
I just wondered whether that's,um, their demands or their
requests.
Uh, perhaps different to whatthey would have been asking for
a few years ago I think so Ithink millennial parents ask a
lot more questions right.
Jenna Kellog (21:34):
I also think they're just maybe open to more
answers too.
You know that it's besides thefew families who have been told
you need 40 hours a week andthat's what you need, and they
don't think twice about it.
I do think there's a largegroup of our population who is
told this is what you need, andthen they don't second guess it,
(21:54):
but they look at all optionsand I think that's a lot of
those kind of families who arefinding us.
You know, maybe they have beentold they need ABA, but they're
not comfortable with the lack ofeducation.
So, and it seems like theparents that we have, at least
(22:15):
now, they are all millennialsactually.
So I think we're I think we'repretty like-minded at least the
ones we have now like-minded atleast the ones we have now.
Hayley Broocks (22:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think parents these days are
much more I don't want to sayinvolved, because my parents
were involved, but maybeinformed about, like my parents
had no idea what I was doing atschool.
But these parents want to know,and they should, and I think
they spend a lot of time sort oflike doing their own research,
(22:45):
which I feel like even sayingthat phrase is freaking
controversial.
But, you know, looking into,you know they'll take their
advice from their pediatricianor their neurologist to whoever
handed them their diagnosis, andthen they'll go to the internet
.
Yeah, they'll go to the internetand they'll look and see what
(23:07):
they find and if they don't likethe mainstream either, they
like.
We've met families who havekept kids entirely out of
therapy until they found us, um,because they weren't
comfortable with what was, Imean the options that were given
.
I talked to a mom last weekwhich I thought this was so
incredible and I had to Googleit because I didn't.
I hadn't heard of it.
But there's some company thatwill train parents in these ABA
(23:32):
concepts and like help thembecome basically a
paraprofessional in the field sothat they can help their child
at home.
And she was telling me she haddone that because she had toured
some of these facilities andshe's got icky vibes and didn't
want to send her child there,and so she did it herself and
now her child's older and soshe's looking for more support.
But I just thought that was soamazing and that's a very
(23:53):
millennial thing.
Yeah.
Jenna Kellog (23:54):
I think yeah, I agree.
Hayley Broocks (23:56):
I don't think that company would have existed
25 years ago.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:00):
Yeah so from what you're talking so far,
I still haven't got a sense ofhow big what you do is in terms
of, I mean, how many children doyou have and how many staff do
you have?
What's the kind of operationlook like for somebody who
hasn't come across adaptive pathbefore?
Jenna Kellog (24:15):
We're teeny tiny so and we and we really hope to
we don't want to stay teeny tiny, but we don't want to.
We don't want to explodeschoolhouse on two acres where
we have three classrooms andeach classroom will have about
eight kids per room.
Now, because they have aone-to-one, that is also eight
(24:37):
therapists per classroom, plusHaley and I.
Plus for each group of eightindividual therapists is one
master level clinician overthose eight, so 30 staff total
with around, you know, 24 to 30kids.
Hayley Broocks (24:56):
We have slightly more staff than we do children.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:01):
Does he mean that you need that kind of
ratio with the work that you'redoing?
I guess?
Hayley Broocks (25:04):
Yeah, honestly, it's, it's safer.
That is something I've obviously.
Admitted that there have beentimes I've been judgmental of
ABA, even though we're using itbecause we do think it is an
important tool, but especiallybecause insurance ends up paying
for that one to one aid, whichis a huge safety issue, because,
(25:24):
even you know, we only offer830 to 230, because we want to
be developmentally appropriate.
But there are some families whoend up going with these 40 hour
a week clinics, not because theythink it's the best choice,
because they need child care.
And so we had discussed youknow, before opening there's
lots of ideas before youactually try to put these things
in practice but we haddiscussed just having like an
(25:47):
aftercare program that was notbuilt through insurance, there
were no like therapeutic demands, place like a child could just
hang out, chill, just be a kid.
And then, once we saw ithappening, we were like, oh,
that's not safe though, becausewe need more that.
We, these children, need ahigher ratio of adults to kids,
(26:08):
and the easiest way to providethat is if insurance is paying
for your one-to-one.
So you know there are somethings we've been eating our
words about.
Jenna Kellog (26:15):
We're going to make it work one way or another.
We're going to work on somesort of group therapy option as
like an afterschool program.
That way we're not you know,parents aren't having to choose
between our age appropriatepreschool versus a 40 hour
clinic.
And if we can get a grouptherapy program working for like
after school, that'll alleviatesome stress from parents who
(26:38):
are having to make that choiceand still keep the kids safe and
have that one to one or youknow, one to two or one to three
ratio that they need one to twoor one to three ratio that they
need amazing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:50):
So what's working well for adaptive path
at the moment in terms of allthe things that you do?
What?
What are you proud of, what'skind of what's going well?
Hayley Broocks (26:58):
are we proud?
I think our kids are happy andour parents are happy, and that
is happy ultimate goal.
Jenna Kellog (27:05):
yeah, and our, we we've had we haven't really done
a ton of marketing, um but justsome positive word of mouth has
gotten around and gotten backto us and that's nice.
Yeah, the feedback that we'vegotten is that people are saying
really great things and they'rereally excited and they just,
(27:26):
you know, know that we, thatwe're going to succeed, so that
feels pretty good Everyone seemsto think we're just going to
like take off and explode, butwe're really happy with the pace
that we've been growing.
Hayley Broocks (27:35):
Yeah, because we , honestly we.
I sorry I won't speak for bothof us, but I never intended to
be an entrepreneur.
This was not in my life plan.
Raising, raising kids, is hardenough, and then you put a
business on top of it.
But I genuinely couldn'tcontinue doing my job, happily,
(27:55):
just from what I was seeing, andJenna graciously agreed to go
on this journey with me, but Ithink it's the parents that you
know will have meetings you knowI might have a meeting to go
(28:31):
over a speech, eval or something, and a mom might tell me that
and I feel this parents abouttheir day and she had said she
was just telling me how thislike huge weight was lifted off
her because they had been atjust a typical childcare
facility and she felt like thecaregivers were always acting
like her child was such a burdenand making her feel so awful,
whereas like to us burden, andmaking her feel so awful,
(28:51):
whereas like to us, that childis a joy and we're so grateful
to have them.
Um, so I think helping theseparents who are going to have a
different journey than usalready, that might be more
difficult for various reasons.
If we can like provide somepeace, at least in this area, I
think that's important to us too.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:07):
Yeah, that's the best and then the
flip side.
What's been frustrating, orharder than you expected, or
challenging?
Hayley Broocks (29:16):
well, where probably?
Jenna Kellog (29:19):
insurance.
Insurance is its own beast.
Just trying to please them.
You know they rule the worldaround here.
Yeah, just trying to manage theclaims and the payments.
And are they paying whatthey're supposed to be paying?
And oh no, they're not, becausethey decided.
One person in the building waslike no, I don't like this claim
(29:40):
, I'm not going to pay you forit, and I mean just dealing
nonsensical with that side ofthings has been a nonsensical
with that side of things hasbeen a it's.
Hayley Broocks (29:55):
It's been a lot to learn, yes, but, and I would
say, like um, county and city,regulation yeah, just dealing
things that we never thought ofspeech therapist.
Jenna Kellog (30:02):
I didn't know how much a fire suppression system
would cost or that it wasrequired yes, and all the
regulations that we have to gothrough just to have our
building, you know, up andrunning legally.
That has been gosh.
A year, yeah, of work, but tosee it coming together.
Hayley Broocks (30:21):
Yeah, and we always.
It's funny, it's like we'velearned so much but we're I mean
, this is our only business.
I feel like.
I feel like if we started a newbusiness today, it would be so
much better at it, but we're notgonna we're just gonna keep
this one.
Jenna Kellog (30:33):
But, like in graduate school, there's no.
At least in speed pathologygraduate school, there's no
class on private practice orrunning a business, or billing I
mean even just like yourgeneric speech therapy billing.
There's no class on that, yeah,which is crazy.
Which is crazy.
(30:53):
So it's just a lot of learningas we go, yeah.
Hayley Broocks (30:57):
Another thing we're doing is we're partnering
with a university here to acceptstudents who are studying to
become master's level speechpathologists and they can come
get clinical hours with us, andI plan on filling their little
brains with all of this stuffthat we weren't taught, just so,
like they've heard it before,they're a little bit more
(31:18):
prepared than we were.
Um, otherwise you just jump inblind, which is what we did, and
it you can do it.
It's just harder that way it'sfunny.
Dr Andrew Greenland (31:29):
Every um us business owner I've talked to
doing these calls.
The insurance thing has come upliterally universally it seems
to be a universal point onrunning these businesses.
So, apart from, that seems tobe one of the bugbears, which is
kind of like an external force.
Is there anything sort ofwithin the business that you
have control over?
That has been a challenge, oris it just these external things
that kind of make thingsdifficult with the regulation
(31:51):
and the fire alarms and all thatsort of stuff?
Jenna Kellog (31:53):
yeah, um, I mean, just being the boss, yeah, is
something that we were learningto do.
I mean, when you have theseone-to-one therapists, if you
have a high you know a highcaseload just of employees and
just trying to manage that lineof we're there for you, we
(32:16):
support you, like we're yourfriend in this, but also we're
your boss, that's.
That's a little challenging,just trying to make sure we want
everyone to be happy, we wanteveryone to love where they work
, but it's also a business andwe have to run it and we have to
profit.
And so I feel like that fineline of we're your friend but
(32:41):
we're your boss too is somethingthat we're learning.
Hayley Broocks (32:44):
Yeah, that's another thing I never planned to
be was a boss, but I think it'sa good life skill.
It forces us out of our comfortzones for sure.
I think we again sorry,speaking for both of us, but
like we're very self-sufficient,like we've had, we went
straight through undergrad andgrad school and then had jobs
our entire lives.
(33:05):
We kind of take care of things,and managing people who have a
different personality type is isdifficult.
Jenna Kellog (33:11):
Who are not millennials, that is like to be
the boss of a group of Gen Z's.
That's a.
That's a beast.
That's different.
I mean just the way our brainsare wired is just different.
They grew up with the internetthe whole time and just yeah,
(33:32):
just a different type of workethic, so that's a challenge.
Hayley Broocks (33:37):
But we're learning and we're getting
better.
Dr Andrew Greenland (33:40):
Brilliant.
Are there any particularmetrics or signals you use to
measure that you're making theimpact that you want to in your
business?
Hayley Broocks (33:50):
to measure that you're making the impact that
you want to in your business.
Um well, I think the repaymentof our small business loan from
the federal government will be agreat one at least from a
financial standpoint, from thebusiness side of things, I we've
I mean we've.
Jenna Kellog (34:02):
we've all not been open long, but at least we've
had months.
I mean the bank told usoriginally, like you're not
going to be in the green foryears, like maybe year two or
year three you're going to startprofiting, you'll actually be
in the green.
But we've at least had likesingular months where we're in
the green already and it's likeokay, we're doing something
(34:25):
right.
So hopefully financiallythat'll be a big positive is
that by the end of our you know,maybe by the end of this
calendar year, we've proved thebank wrong and that we're
financially able to supportourselves.
And then from the likeeducational therapy perspective,
I think when we have kids kindof reach that age six to seven
(34:48):
age range, that'll be a reallygood, I guess, a show of how are
they doing.
Are they ready for school?
I mean, did we bridge the gap,like are they ready to go to
public school or private school,whatever the parents choose?
But we're not there yet.
We don't have any who are oldenough to really test to see
where were they when theystarted with us and then where
(35:10):
are they now?
Hayley Broocks (35:10):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean.
Most important to us is thekids and their families and
their progress.
Just on the other side of that,we'll be proving the SBA wrong
and becoming independent and nolonger tethered to our federal
government.
Dr Andrew Greenland (35:29):
In terms of looking ahead.
So we go through fast forwardsix, 12 months.
Where would you like AdaptivePath to be?
What's your kind of plans forthe business?
Hayley Broocks (35:40):
Operating at capacity.
Jenna Kellog (35:42):
Yeah, operating at full capacity, and then
eventually, like we would liketo be able to maybe take a step
back on and maybe this is notsix months to a year, maybe two
years.
But to be able to step back andmaybe, you know, hire another
couple of speech therapists whotake our place in the therapy
(36:04):
aspect of things, to be able tohave you know, because right now
we're, we're everything, we'rethe speech therapist, we're HR,
we're it, we are poor, you'reinsurance we're all the things,
and so to be able tosuccessfully run the business
and to hire others who can takethe place of some of these jobs
(36:25):
that we're doing, that will be.
Dr Andrew Greenland (36:28):
That would be a long-term goal, for sure
nice, and if you could wave amagic wand and remove one big
bottleneck right now, um, Iexpect insurance will be it, but
is there anything else that youwould be able to like to solve?
Hayley Broocks (36:41):
it's got to be it's got to be.
Yeah, insurance has got to be,and I don't know the answer
because I've had family like afamily during the pandemic that
fled canada and their universalhealth care to come seek
services here and ended up beingmy patient.
So I don't know what the answeris, but it's somewhere between
our two countries um, there's.
Jenna Kellog (37:04):
There needs to be a better way for at least least
on our side of things, on theadmin side, of dealing with
insurance.
There just needs to be asmoother, like a central website
database, something where allinsurance works together.
You submit everything on onepage.
Hayley Broocks (37:23):
That kind of sounds like universal health
care.
Jenna Kellog (37:25):
Yeah maybe Something like that.
There's got to be a way to makeit smoother and easier to deal
with.
Hayley Broocks (37:31):
Even just again.
This is one of our likefive-year things, but realizing
how much consumers don't knowabout their own health plans,
like we'd love to help familieslearn how to better navigate
that, because I mean, peopletruly have no idea of what their
coverage means.
Or, and you know, the UnitedStates is just so large.
(37:54):
We live in Austin, but thenfamilies will come to us with
blue cross, blue shield ofFlorida.
Jenna Kellog (37:58):
Illinois like Michigan everywhere.
Hayley Broocks (38:01):
It's a mess.
Um.
So, even if we can't fix thatsystem, maybe helping families
learn how to navigate the systema little better is also.
You know, when we're not havingto do the speech therapy, maybe
we can't fix that system.
Maybe helping families learnhow to navigate the system a
little better is also.
Jenna Kellog (38:11):
You know, when we're not having to do the
speech therapy, maybe we canfigure out some education, even
things like learning how to readyour policy and some key words
to look for, especially if youhave a kiddo with autism and you
know they're going to need ABA,speech therapy, occupational
therapy, maybe physical therapy.
When you're shopping for apolicy, these are some things
(38:32):
that you should look for andthese are some things to avoid.
And you know, this is what acopay versus a coinsurance is,
and this is what a deductible isversus your out-of-pocket and
this is how much you're actuallygoing to spend this year.
I mean, just understandingthose kinds of things on an
insurance policy for a parentwould be so beneficial.
Dr Andrew Greenland (38:56):
I think you mentioned that you like to get
capacity.
What, um, what is capacity foryou?
Jenna Kellog (39:01):
Capacity is 25 to 30.
Yeah, kids.
Hayley Broocks (39:04):
Yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:05):
And where are you at?
Where are you at at the moment?
Jenna Kellog (39:07):
We're at eight.
Yep, so we're at eight right now, which is our first full
classroom, and once the firemarshal stamps off on all these
other things, we can openclassroom number two, which we
do have a I won't say a waitlist, but we have a list of
kiddos who are coming to us thissummer, so hopefully fire
(39:30):
marshal stamps us off in thenext two weeks and we're good to
go with we have a littleseparate building that's like a
tiny, cute standalone classroomthat we're operating out of now,
and then we have a largerschoolhouse that has two
classrooms, which is having afire suppression system
installed this week.
Hayley Broocks (39:49):
That's been fun.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:50):
Yeah, so some of this is regulatory.
Is there anything else that youneed to get to your capacity?
I mean, if all the fire stuffwas sorted and everything was
signed off, what would it taketo get to 25?
Jenna Kellog (40:01):
We need some great marketing, some more word of
mouth and we need a really greatanother BCBA to join us, which
we just posted a link to hire anew BCBA.
Yesterday we posted it, so weknow we're going to need and
she's the master's levelclinician who's over the
one-to-one therapist.
So that'll be our next hurdleis getting a BCBA hired to get
(40:25):
this next classroom going, andthen we'll be good.
Dr Andrew Greenland (40:32):
Amazing to get this next classroom going
and then then we'll be good,yeah, amazing.
Look, jenna, I'm really reallygrateful for your time and
listening to your story, I'mreally impressed with what
you've created with adaptivepath.
Such a thoughtful conversationand really good having the both
of you here, because it'sinteresting having the dynamics
of two people running thebusiness.
So I think makes a reallyinteresting conversation.
So, really grateful for yourtime.
Thank you so much thank you somuch.
Hayley Broocks (40:49):
This was fun, yeah thank you.
Welcome back to Voices in Health and
Wellness.
This is the podcast where wespotlight the founders, the
clinicians and change makers,reshaping how care is delivered,
experienced and understood.
I'm your host, dr AndrewGreenland, and today I'm
thrilled to welcome twoincredibly thoughtful guests.
We have Hayley and Jenna,co-founders of Adaptive Path in
Austin, texas.
Adaptive Path is a growingforce in early childhood
(00:25):
intervention, offering a freshand deeply human alternative to
traditional therapeutic modelsfor autistic preschoolers, with
a focus on parent-centeredcollaboration, developmental
respect and the evolving needsof today's families, hayley and
Jenna are meeting a newgeneration of caregivers right
where they are.
So, hayley and Jenna, thank youvery much for joining me on
(00:46):
this podcast today.
You're calling from Austin,texas, I believe.
Hayley Broocks (00:51):
We are.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:52):
So why don't we start with adaptive?
Sorry, Karen.
Hayley Broocks (00:56):
Thank you for having us.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:57):
No, you're very welcome.
So let's start with adaptivepath.
Could you perhaps tell us alittle bit about what gap you
saw in traditional therapyoptions that made you want to
create something a bit differentand perhaps talk a little bit
about what adaptive path doesand your respective roles within
it?
Hayley Broocks (01:14):
sure?
Um, we're both speech andlanguage pathologists.
We met in grad school manyyears ago I won't number them
and for the past decade or so Iin particular have worked in a
variety of clinics in the Austinarea that focused on providing
(01:35):
services for children withautism, and in the last few
years there's been an explosionof a particular kind of therapy
called ABA, because it ismandated to be covered by
commercial insurance here in theStates and when that happens,
venture capital and big moneytend to get involved, especially
(01:58):
here.
I know our health systems aredifferent and I just saw a push
towards ABA kind of taking overthe space and not leaving any
room for every other therapeuticdiscipline.
That's really important tochildren and also often at the
expense of education.
So we are trying to createsomething where every
(02:18):
therapeutic discipline, plusearly childhood education, have
a seat at the table.
Dr Andrew Greenland (02:24):
Brilliant.
And what do you individually do, or do you have a sort of a
joint approach to this business?
Jenna Kellog (02:31):
It's a joint approach.
We're learning as we go.
Since we are both speechtherapists, though we're both
qualified to provide speechtherapy to all of our students
who are enrolled.
Hayley does most of the speechtherapy.
I do more of the admin side ofthings.
My career up until we startedAdaptive Path was in geriatrics,
(02:53):
so totally different world thanthis pediatric world.
But yeah, we're learning as wego, but Haley does more therapy.
I'm usually behind the computer.
I'll step in when needed,though.
Dr Andrew Greenland (03:06):
I understand, and so I mean you
mentioned ABA and obviously it'sa term I hadn't quite heard of.
Can you perhaps talk about whatthat is and what the issues are
with it as you see it?
Hayley Broocks (03:15):
yeah.
So ABA stands for appliedbehavioral analysis.
It is a strictly behavioralapproach to supporting kids with
autism, which I do think isit's a necessary piece of the
puzzle, but it's not the wholething.
What ABA leaves out is thatthere often are physiological
(03:40):
reasons for things that arehappening with the child and the
behavior is a symptom of that,not like a cognitive choice that
that child might be making, ifthat makes sense.
But they treat everything likeit's a decision and when you
have sort of just that frameworkit's based on reinforcement of
(04:03):
positive things, so likepositive reinforcement for
positive things and then sort oflike ignoring anything negative
.
Unfortunately, toddlers can't beignored ever.
That's not good for them.
Often the only way that theyhave to communicate, especially
non-speaking toddlers, is crying, something you might call a
(04:24):
tantrum.
And if you haven't studiedchildhood development, which
these therapists aren't requiredto, you might end up
pathologizing just typical childbehavior and then ignoring that
communication isn't necessarilya great outcome.
So what I was seeing when I wasa speech therapist who would go
(04:45):
into these centers that didn'temploy any other kind of
professional who knew a lotabout child development, I would
see this pathologizing oftypical toddler behavior outside
of diagnosis and outside ofkind of typical things you would
normally expect a two or threeyear old to do Right.
Yeah, and that made me kind ofuncomfortable and I decided that
(05:10):
I think that it's better forour kids, and for any child,
really to have an occupationaltherapist on site, a speech
pathologist on site, a preschooleducator on site.
We all can't know everything.
I don't expect any professionalto know everything about a
child and their development, butI think we need to make room
(05:33):
for everyone to be a participant, because you can't just
prescribe this child 40 hours ofbehavior therapy and expect a
great outcome, which is what ishappening here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:44):
I understand.
So basically, by what you do,you have a sort of
multidisciplinary team approachthat you can offer more because
you've got more people with abetter understanding of the
various things that contribute.
Is that a fair thing to say inthe way that you do things?
Jenna Kellog (05:58):
Yes, definitely.
And then?
We add education.
So a lot of these big ABAclinics in this area add
education.
So a lot of these big ABAclinics in this area it's
strictly ABA.
There's no preschool education,there's no K through five
education.
These parents are having tochoose Either they go to ABA and
skip school, or they miss outon the ABA services because they
(06:23):
try to go to public school,which doesn't always work out
for those children either.
Dr Andrew Greenland (06:28):
Really interesting.
What do you think is gettingmissed in that approach, then
that you're able to offersomething a bit different?
What are the kind of thingsthat you're picking up on that
this approach is just too rigidand standardized.
Hayley Broocks (06:40):
I think that there's so many differences in
our countries and how thingshappen and I don't necessarily
like I'm not saying universalhealth care is the only way to
go.
I honestly don't know what theanswer is, but I think some of
our issues come from us nothaving that.
For example, like these big ABAclinics that we're talking
(07:00):
about, they are only, like,incredibly abundant in states
where you can choose to opt outof public school for this
therapy.
Like, if you look at a map ofwhere all these clinics are,
they're only in states thatdon't have strict public
education laws, because theyknow they can keep these kids
till they're eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, and bill their insurance
(07:22):
for 40 hours a week from age twoto age 12.
So I think I don't want to like,I don't want to be too negative
about it, because we use it.
I think it's a great tool.
It just has to be usedappropriately.
Jenna Kellog (07:41):
Yeah, and ABA has a bad reputation, at least here,
for I mean a lot of the reasonsHaley mentioned.
But if you're a three-year-oldwho's prescribed 40 hours of
behavior therapy a week, whenare you going to learn You're
not.
Hayley Broocks (08:01):
Yeah, you're not .
Yeah, basically, and all theprofessionals I want to say the
professionals I've met in thisindustry have great intentions.
They're incredible.
People usually care so muchabout their patients.
It's the overarching systemthat creates this kind of
pipeline that I don't think hasgreat outcomes pipeline that I
(08:26):
don't think has great outcomes.
So we basically try to make itlike a natural environment to
childhood, where you're in aclassroom with eight other kids
your age.
You're not locked in a tinyroom with one therapist who's
asking you memorizationquestions 10 times an hour.
We have almost two acres ofoutside space.
We're outside all the time.
Jenna Kellog (08:44):
we're just it's childhood, but supported by
therapists, if that makes sensewe want to be the bridge between
you know, if if a child needsaba, then they need aba, but at
some point they're going to ageout and they need to be able to
go to school, whether that'spublic school or private school,
whatever the family chooses.
But there has to be some kindof bridge between, I mean, can
(09:09):
they participate in a classroomenvironment, can they manage
sharing the classroom toys withtheir peers, and those are
things that we can work onnaturally in our environment and
then have them ready to go toschool once parents are ready,
and that have them ready to goto school once you know parents
are ready and that child isready too.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:29):
So how long is the program?
Because you meant this is forpreschoolers by what you're
saying.
So how long is?
How long would you need with achild to kind of get them to a
point where they could perhapsgo into mainstream education?
Hayley Broocks (09:41):
Well, we hope to get them early.
Our ages are two to six.
We won't kick you out whenyou're six.
We'll keep you until yourseventh birthday, because in
Texas you don't have to startpublic school until you're seven
.
If that's what you're going todo is to, instead of kids ending
(10:06):
up in these 40-hour clinicswhen they're two, we really hope
they come to us and get thisearly intervention from a
multidisciplinary team in a morenatural environment so that if,
hopefully, when they do go onto public school, it's not like
a shock that you know they'vebeen in this room with one
therapist for four years,whereas with us they've been in
a group of students with acurriculum, learning with a
(10:29):
teacher, following teacherguidelines and following the
structure of a classroom.
And I think too, there's this.
It's kind of an oddjuxtaposition because I don't
know if you've noticed, ourcountry is very political Really
.
No, you picked up on that.
We kind of choose sides hereand we're either on like one
(10:52):
extreme or the other.
We're not at all.
We're here for the entirespectrum, but a lot it's
everything is very much likeneurodiversity.
Affirming right now is like kindof the I would say the key,
like the key term, the hip term,which we are too.
That's incredible.
We all should be moresupportive, accommodating and
(11:14):
just compassionate people.
However, it's a spectrum.
There's a variety of needs, ofneeds, and sometimes there's
(11:35):
like discord within thecommunity itself about sort of
the best practice.
Like some people who have maybelower support needs children
think there should be nointervention at all, whereas
parents of children with highsupport needs are kind of
desperate for as much support asthey can get, and it's sort of
our goal to provide all of that,even like beyond the services
(11:57):
that we offer every day in ourclassrooms.
But you know, we have a contactwho her whole job is like
financial planning for familieswho may end up with a child that
needs to be supported for alifetime, versus just till 18
years old.
Um, things that are hard tothink about when your child is
preschool age, but sometimesnecessary.
(12:19):
Um, we support families if theywant to seek out any kind of
biomedical intervention, whichis a big divide here.
Some people think that that'slike searching for a cure and so
it's not, as accepted,appropriate.
(12:41):
But I mean the truth of thematter is there's physiological
dysfunction in children who arediagnosed with autism, gut
health issues, motor deficits,sleep issues, seizure activity,
brain inflammation.
Those are all things that canbe addressed and if it's not
(13:01):
necessarily looking for a cure,it's trying to support your
child so they can be their bestself.
Jenna Kellog (13:07):
We're very supportive of that and big
proponents of the parents ofthese kiddos are the parents.
They get to choose what othertherapies they choose for their
child and we're just here tosupport that where they may not
find that support in otherplaces.
Hayley Broocks (13:24):
Yeah, you get a lot of rolling eyes in other
places.
Dr Andrew Greenland (13:27):
Really Okay .
Is there a sense of conflict indoing this alternative approach
, which is not the mainstream,which is not the mandated thing
that everybody else gets?
Is there a conflict in doingthat kind of thing or are you
able to happily get on and offeryour multidisciplinary,
holistic approach without toomany problems?
Pretty much to happily get onand, you know, offer your
multidisciplinary, holisticapproach without too many
problems pretty much we the.
Jenna Kellog (13:50):
I would say like maybe the only pushback we've
had actually might come fromparents who have taken their
child to a neurologist and theneurologist says you need ABA,
you need 40 hours of ABA a week.
And they come to us and we saywe don't do 40 hours a week,
(14:11):
that's not age appropriate forages two to six.
You know we have a typicalpreschool day with typical
preschool hours and there areparents who have heard what that
doctor said and think that well, the doctor said my child needs
40 hours, why are you notproviding 40 hours?
So that's probably that's all Ican think of as maybe some,
(14:36):
some questions or some pushback.
Can you think of anything else?
Hayley Broocks (14:39):
Um, I think.
Um, we use enough of like ourphilosophies buzzwords on our
website to attract the kind offamilies who would seek us out
anyway.
I think we're well aware thatthere are some therapists in
mainstream therapy who disagreeand wouldn't encourage families
(15:02):
to seek out other types oftherapy or, you know, change a
diet or anything like that.
But what are you going to do?
Jenna Kellog (15:11):
I think that the parents who are coming to us are
parents who are alsolike-minded.
You know they're.
They're searching for the sametype of treatment that we
provide and insurance should behappy that we're only requesting
30 hours versus 40.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:29):
So what does um, what does a typical day
look like, if there is such athing in your world?
Jenna Kellog (15:37):
well, guess it's a silly question well, we do have
just like a typical preschoolschedule.
So kids are dropped off in themorning and we try to spend
about 30 minutes outside,weather permitting.
You know, we want as muchvitamin D as we can get and then
we transition inside theclassroom where the teacher
(15:57):
starts with some circle time.
So, just like any other typicalpreschool, you're going to sit
around, sing some songs, talkabout the weather and the months
, the days of the year, thingslike that, and then we kind of
just work in like a 15 minuteincrement of a schedule for
those kiddos who can participate.
It is not required thateveryone be participating doing
(16:18):
the same thing at every you know, every minute of the day.
Obviously, some behaviors justdon't allow for that, and we're
very aware of when a kid needs abreak, when they need to go
outside, when they you know theycan't be sitting at the table.
It's you know, it's too much,it's too overwhelming.
They need a break from theclassroom.
But we do try to just follow aloose school schedule.
(16:41):
So there are, you know, there'sarts and crafts through the day
.
There's story time in theafternoon.
There's your you know yoursnack break, your lunch break,
your you know, we're outsideplaying as much as we can, and
then we're.
You know we try to get thekiddos back inside for the next.
You know maybe some math, maybewe're doing a math activity at
the table, or you know a scienceexperiment with paint and
(17:05):
bubbles and water and what sinksand what floats and just things
that any child who's attendingany preschool our kiddos are
getting the same type ofeducation.
Hayley Broocks (17:17):
Yeah, just because you know I'm not saying
most, but a large portion of ourchildren are non-speaking.
But non-speaking doesn't meannon-learning, and I think that's
the problem with otherfacilities that you know.
They claim to be soneuroaffirming and ascent-based,
but they're not providing thesame education that any
(17:39):
three-year-old in preschoolwould get.
So to me it's like how is thatneuroaffirming If you're saying
that you have to earn youreducation by graduating from
your type of therapy?
That doesn't sound veryneuroaffirming to me.
Just because you might learndifferently or it might look
different from the outsidedoesn't mean it's not happening,
and so that's our whole thing.
We don't care if you're notsitting at circle time.
(18:01):
If you're in the room, you'rehearing what your friends are
saying, you're hearing the story, you are exposed to it, and
that's really what is soimportant to us.
We don't care what it lookslike.
We want to give you theopportunity to receive the same
like early childhood educationthat any child would receive
that my kid in preschool isgetting right now.
It doesn't matter to us ifyou're sitting on the floor.
(18:25):
If you're laying on the floor,if you're across the room, if
you have headphones on, ifyou're looking like you're not
participating, it doesn't matter.
We want you to have theopportunity.
Jenna Kellog (18:35):
And each of our kiddos has a one-to-one
therapist who's with themthrough the day, so they have
that adult support to.
You know, at least try toencourage a kid to hey, look,
you know, it's time for circletime, let's go sit on our yellow
dot.
And if they can do it, great,and if they can't, that's okay.
But they do have thatone-to-one therapist with them
through the day for that support.
(18:56):
And then Hayley and I, you know, can push in for speech therapy
through the day as well great,so you're clearly creating
something new.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:05):
Um I already have, I guess.
How do you see um the therapyand wellness space evolving for
preschool aged autistic learners?
Jenna Kellog (19:14):
oh, gosh, we hope this model takes off yeah, that
other that I mean, at some pointin time other clinics are gonna
have to start and you know,including education in their
model.
I mean that would.
That's the goal.
I don't know how we accomplishthat, but no aba.
Hayley Broocks (19:35):
The explosion of it here in the states is it's
really been the last like fiveto ten years, where I mean there
are, there are I couldn't evenguess.
I know of like one specificbrand of this huge clinic.
There's like 37 of them inAustin alone, um.
So I think it's going to take aminute because there's a lot of
(19:55):
big money in it right now, um,but I also think that the
success rate is not great andit's really sad to say, but it's
like the, the generation rightnow, the cohort of these kids,
they're the ones who are gonnagrow up in this and we're gonna
see what happens.
We, I didn't want to wait tosee what happened because I I
(20:20):
hope I'm wrong, I hope I wrong,but I don't necessarily think
it's going to be the bestpossible outcome.
We are deep in the early days ofthe new business right now.
But, like you know, we're likefive years from now and we have
time.
We're going to, you know, lobbythe Texas legislation about.
You shouldn't be able to take akid for 40 hours and not
(20:43):
provide them education.
Like we don't understand howthat's legal.
It seems sort of like a nobrainer to us, but everything is
so new that there's really notthat much regulation around it.
Like, as practitioners, we'revery regulated and the
therapists who provide thetherapy are regulated, but like,
the industry is not regulated,if that makes sense, I
(21:04):
understand.
So you know that's ourfive-year plan go to the capital
, but we're pretty busy rightnow.
One day, one day we'll getthere.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:13):
What about millennial parents, in terms of
what they might be asking?
Yeah, absolutely.
Hayley Broocks (21:19):
I just wondered whether that's their demands or
their requests perhaps differentto what they would have been
asking for a few years ago.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:22):
Be asking yeah, absolutely.
I just wondered whether that's,um, their demands or their
requests.
Uh, perhaps different to whatthey would have been asking for
a few years ago I think so Ithink millennial parents ask a
lot more questions right.
Jenna Kellog (21:34):
I also think they're just maybe open to more
answers too.
You know that it's besides thefew families who have been told
you need 40 hours a week andthat's what you need, and they
don't think twice about it.
I do think there's a largegroup of our population who is
told this is what you need, andthen they don't second guess it,
(21:54):
but they look at all optionsand I think that's a lot of
those kind of families who arefinding us.
You know, maybe they have beentold they need ABA, but they're
not comfortable with the lack ofeducation.
So, and it seems like theparents that we have, at least
(22:15):
now, they are all millennialsactually.
So I think we're I think we'repretty like-minded at least the
ones we have now like-minded atleast the ones we have now.
Hayley Broocks (22:23):
Yeah, I mean, I think parents these days are
much more I don't want to sayinvolved, because my parents
were involved, but maybeinformed about, like my parents
had no idea what I was doing atschool.
But these parents want to know,and they should, and I think
they spend a lot of time sort oflike doing their own research,
(22:45):
which I feel like even sayingthat phrase is freaking
controversial.
But, you know, looking into,you know they'll take their
advice from their pediatricianor their neurologist to whoever
handed them their diagnosis, andthen they'll go to the internet
.
Yeah, they'll go to the internetand they'll look and see what
(23:07):
they find and if they don't likethe mainstream either, they
like.
We've met families who havekept kids entirely out of
therapy until they found us, um,because they weren't
comfortable with what was, Imean the options that were given
.
I talked to a mom last weekwhich I thought this was so
incredible and I had to Googleit because I didn't.
I hadn't heard of it.
But there's some company thatwill train parents in these ABA
(23:32):
concepts and like help thembecome basically a
paraprofessional in the field sothat they can help their child
at home.
And she was telling me she haddone that because she had toured
some of these facilities andshe's got icky vibes and didn't
want to send her child there,and so she did it herself and
now her child's older and soshe's looking for more support.
But I just thought that was soamazing and that's a very
(23:53):
millennial thing.
Yeah.
Jenna Kellog (23:54):
I think yeah, I agree.
Hayley Broocks (23:56):
I don't think that company would have existed
25 years ago.
Dr Andrew Greenland (24:00):
Yeah so from what you're talking so far,
I still haven't got a sense ofhow big what you do is in terms
of, I mean, how many children doyou have and how many staff do
you have?
What's the kind of operationlook like for somebody who
hasn't come across adaptive pathbefore?
Jenna Kellog (24:15):
We're teeny tiny so and we and we really hope to
we don't want to stay teeny tiny, but we don't want to.
We don't want to explodeschoolhouse on two acres where
we have three classrooms andeach classroom will have about
eight kids per room.
Now, because they have aone-to-one, that is also eight
(24:37):
therapists per classroom, plusHaley and I.
Plus for each group of eightindividual therapists is one
master level clinician overthose eight, so 30 staff total
with around, you know, 24 to 30kids.
Hayley Broocks (24:56):
We have slightly more staff than we do children.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:01):
Does he mean that you need that kind of
ratio with the work that you'redoing?
I guess?
Hayley Broocks (25:04):
Yeah, honestly, it's, it's safer.
That is something I've obviously.
Admitted that there have beentimes I've been judgmental of
ABA, even though we're using itbecause we do think it is an
important tool, but especiallybecause insurance ends up paying
for that one to one aid, whichis a huge safety issue, because,
(25:24):
even you know, we only offer830 to 230, because we want to
be developmentally appropriate.
But there are some families whoend up going with these 40 hour
a week clinics, not because theythink it's the best choice,
because they need child care.
And so we had discussed youknow, before opening there's
lots of ideas before youactually try to put these things
in practice but we haddiscussed just having like an
(25:47):
aftercare program that was notbuilt through insurance, there
were no like therapeutic demands, place like a child could just
hang out, chill, just be a kid.
And then, once we saw ithappening, we were like, oh,
that's not safe though, becausewe need more that.
We, these children, need ahigher ratio of adults to kids,
(26:08):
and the easiest way to providethat is if insurance is paying
for your one-to-one.
So you know there are somethings we've been eating our
words about.
Jenna Kellog (26:15):
We're going to make it work one way or another.
We're going to work on somesort of group therapy option as
like an afterschool program.
That way we're not you know,parents aren't having to choose
between our age appropriatepreschool versus a 40 hour
clinic.
And if we can get a grouptherapy program working for like
after school, that'll alleviatesome stress from parents who
(26:38):
are having to make that choiceand still keep the kids safe and
have that one to one or youknow, one to two or one to three
ratio that they need one to twoor one to three ratio that they
need amazing.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:50):
So what's working well for adaptive path
at the moment in terms of allthe things that you do?
What?
What are you proud of, what'skind of what's going well?
Hayley Broocks (26:58):
are we proud?
I think our kids are happy andour parents are happy, and that
is happy ultimate goal.
Jenna Kellog (27:05):
yeah, and our, we we've had we haven't really done
a ton of marketing, um but justsome positive word of mouth has
gotten around and gotten backto us and that's nice.
Yeah, the feedback that we'vegotten is that people are saying
really great things and they'rereally excited and they just,
(27:26):
you know, know that we, thatwe're going to succeed, so that
feels pretty good Everyone seemsto think we're just going to
like take off and explode, butwe're really happy with the pace
that we've been growing.
Hayley Broocks (27:35):
Yeah, because we , honestly we.
I sorry I won't speak for bothof us, but I never intended to
be an entrepreneur.
This was not in my life plan.
Raising, raising kids, is hardenough, and then you put a
business on top of it.
But I genuinely couldn'tcontinue doing my job, happily,
(27:55):
just from what I was seeing, andJenna graciously agreed to go
on this journey with me, but Ithink it's the parents that you
know will have meetings you knowI might have a meeting to go
(28:31):
over a speech, eval or something, and a mom might tell me that
and I feel this parents abouttheir day and she had said she
was just telling me how thislike huge weight was lifted off
her because they had been atjust a typical childcare
facility and she felt like thecaregivers were always acting
like her child was such a burdenand making her feel so awful,
whereas like to us burden, andmaking her feel so awful,
(28:51):
whereas like to us, that childis a joy and we're so grateful
to have them.
Um, so I think helping theseparents who are going to have a
different journey than usalready, that might be more
difficult for various reasons.
If we can like provide somepeace, at least in this area, I
think that's important to us too.
Dr Andrew Greenland (29:07):
Yeah, that's the best and then the
flip side.
What's been frustrating, orharder than you expected, or
challenging?
Hayley Broocks (29:16):
well, where probably?
Jenna Kellog (29:19):
insurance.
Insurance is its own beast.
Just trying to please them.
You know they rule the worldaround here.
Yeah, just trying to manage theclaims and the payments.
And are they paying whatthey're supposed to be paying?
And oh no, they're not, becausethey decided.
One person in the building waslike no, I don't like this claim
(29:40):
, I'm not going to pay you forit, and I mean just dealing
nonsensical with that side ofthings has been a nonsensical
with that side of things hasbeen a it's.
Hayley Broocks (29:55):
It's been a lot to learn, yes, but, and I would
say, like um, county and city,regulation yeah, just dealing
things that we never thought ofspeech therapist.
Jenna Kellog (30:02):
I didn't know how much a fire suppression system
would cost or that it wasrequired yes, and all the
regulations that we have to gothrough just to have our
building, you know, up andrunning legally.
That has been gosh.
A year, yeah, of work, but tosee it coming together.
Hayley Broocks (30:21):
Yeah, and we always.
It's funny, it's like we'velearned so much but we're I mean
, this is our only business.
I feel like.
I feel like if we started a newbusiness today, it would be so
much better at it, but we're notgonna we're just gonna keep
this one.
Jenna Kellog (30:33):
But, like in graduate school, there's no.
At least in speed pathologygraduate school, there's no
class on private practice orrunning a business, or billing I
mean even just like yourgeneric speech therapy billing.
There's no class on that, yeah,which is crazy.
Which is crazy.
(30:53):
So it's just a lot of learningas we go, yeah.
Hayley Broocks (30:57):
Another thing we're doing is we're partnering
with a university here to acceptstudents who are studying to
become master's level speechpathologists and they can come
get clinical hours with us, andI plan on filling their little
brains with all of this stuffthat we weren't taught, just so,
like they've heard it before,they're a little bit more
(31:18):
prepared than we were.
Um, otherwise you just jump inblind, which is what we did, and
it you can do it.
It's just harder that way it'sfunny.
Dr Andrew Greenland (31:29):
Every um us business owner I've talked to
doing these calls.
The insurance thing has come upliterally universally it seems
to be a universal point onrunning these businesses.
So, apart from, that seems tobe one of the bugbears, which is
kind of like an external force.
Is there anything sort ofwithin the business that you
have control over?
That has been a challenge, oris it just these external things
that kind of make thingsdifficult with the regulation
(31:51):
and the fire alarms and all thatsort of stuff?
Jenna Kellog (31:53):
yeah, um, I mean, just being the boss, yeah, is
something that we were learningto do.
I mean, when you have theseone-to-one therapists, if you
have a high you know a highcaseload just of employees and
just trying to manage that lineof we're there for you, we
(32:16):
support you, like we're yourfriend in this, but also we're
your boss, that's.
That's a little challenging,just trying to make sure we want
everyone to be happy, we wanteveryone to love where they work
, but it's also a business andwe have to run it and we have to
profit.
And so I feel like that fineline of we're your friend but
(32:41):
we're your boss too is somethingthat we're learning.
Hayley Broocks (32:44):
Yeah, that's another thing I never planned to
be was a boss, but I think it'sa good life skill.
It forces us out of our comfortzones for sure.
I think we again sorry,speaking for both of us, but
like we're very self-sufficient,like we've had, we went
straight through undergrad andgrad school and then had jobs
our entire lives.
(33:05):
We kind of take care of things,and managing people who have a
different personality type is isdifficult.
Jenna Kellog (33:11):
Who are not millennials, that is like to be
the boss of a group of Gen Z's.
That's a.
That's a beast.
That's different.
I mean just the way our brainsare wired is just different.
They grew up with the internetthe whole time and just yeah,
(33:32):
just a different type of workethic, so that's a challenge.
Hayley Broocks (33:37):
But we're learning and we're getting
better.
Dr Andrew Greenland (33:40):
Brilliant.
Are there any particularmetrics or signals you use to
measure that you're making theimpact that you want to in your
business?
Hayley Broocks (33:50):
to measure that you're making the impact that
you want to in your business.
Um well, I think the repaymentof our small business loan from
the federal government will be agreat one at least from a
financial standpoint, from thebusiness side of things, I we've
I mean we've.
Jenna Kellog (34:02):
we've all not been open long, but at least we've
had months.
I mean the bank told usoriginally, like you're not
going to be in the green foryears, like maybe year two or
year three you're going to startprofiting, you'll actually be
in the green.
But we've at least had likesingular months where we're in
the green already and it's likeokay, we're doing something
(34:25):
right.
So hopefully financiallythat'll be a big positive is
that by the end of our you know,maybe by the end of this
calendar year, we've proved thebank wrong and that we're
financially able to supportourselves.
And then from the likeeducational therapy perspective,
I think when we have kids kindof reach that age six to seven
(34:48):
age range, that'll be a reallygood, I guess, a show of how are
they doing.
Are they ready for school?
I mean, did we bridge the gap,like are they ready to go to
public school or private school,whatever the parents choose?
But we're not there yet.
We don't have any who are oldenough to really test to see
where were they when theystarted with us and then where
(35:10):
are they now?
Hayley Broocks (35:10):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean.
Most important to us is thekids and their families and
their progress.
Just on the other side of that,we'll be proving the SBA wrong
and becoming independent and nolonger tethered to our federal
government.
Dr Andrew Greenland (35:29):
In terms of looking ahead.
So we go through fast forwardsix, 12 months.
Where would you like AdaptivePath to be?
What's your kind of plans forthe business?
Hayley Broocks (35:40):
Operating at capacity.
Jenna Kellog (35:42):
Yeah, operating at full capacity, and then
eventually, like we would liketo be able to maybe take a step
back on and maybe this is notsix months to a year, maybe two
years.
But to be able to step back andmaybe, you know, hire another
couple of speech therapists whotake our place in the therapy
(36:04):
aspect of things, to be able tohave you know, because right now
we're, we're everything, we'rethe speech therapist, we're HR,
we're it, we are poor, you'reinsurance we're all the things,
and so to be able tosuccessfully run the business
and to hire others who can takethe place of some of these jobs
(36:25):
that we're doing, that will be.
Dr Andrew Greenland (36:28):
That would be a long-term goal, for sure
nice, and if you could wave amagic wand and remove one big
bottleneck right now, um, Iexpect insurance will be it, but
is there anything else that youwould be able to like to solve?
Hayley Broocks (36:41):
it's got to be it's got to be.
Yeah, insurance has got to be,and I don't know the answer
because I've had family like afamily during the pandemic that
fled canada and their universalhealth care to come seek
services here and ended up beingmy patient.
So I don't know what the answeris, but it's somewhere between
our two countries um, there's.
Jenna Kellog (37:04):
There needs to be a better way for at least least
on our side of things, on theadmin side, of dealing with
insurance.
There just needs to be asmoother, like a central website
database, something where allinsurance works together.
You submit everything on onepage.
Hayley Broocks (37:23):
That kind of sounds like universal health
care.
Jenna Kellog (37:25):
Yeah maybe Something like that.
There's got to be a way to makeit smoother and easier to deal
with.
Hayley Broocks (37:31):
Even just again.
This is one of our likefive-year things, but realizing
how much consumers don't knowabout their own health plans,
like we'd love to help familieslearn how to better navigate
that, because I mean, peopletruly have no idea of what their
coverage means.
Or, and you know, the UnitedStates is just so large.
(37:54):
We live in Austin, but thenfamilies will come to us with
blue cross, blue shield ofFlorida.
Jenna Kellog (37:58):
Illinois like Michigan everywhere.
Hayley Broocks (38:01):
It's a mess.
Um.
So, even if we can't fix thatsystem, maybe helping families
learn how to navigate the systema little better is also.
You know, when we're not havingto do the speech therapy, maybe
we can't fix that system.
Maybe helping families learnhow to navigate the system a
little better is also.
Jenna Kellog (38:11):
You know, when we're not having to do the
speech therapy, maybe we canfigure out some education, even
things like learning how to readyour policy and some key words
to look for, especially if youhave a kiddo with autism and you
know they're going to need ABA,speech therapy, occupational
therapy, maybe physical therapy.
When you're shopping for apolicy, these are some things
(38:32):
that you should look for andthese are some things to avoid.
And you know, this is what acopay versus a coinsurance is,
and this is what a deductible isversus your out-of-pocket and
this is how much you're actuallygoing to spend this year.
I mean, just understandingthose kinds of things on an
insurance policy for a parentwould be so beneficial.
Dr Andrew Greenland (38:56):
I think you mentioned that you like to get
capacity.
What, um, what is capacity foryou?
Jenna Kellog (39:01):
Capacity is 25 to 30.
Yeah, kids.
Hayley Broocks (39:04):
Yeah.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:05):
And where are you at?
Where are you at at the moment?
Jenna Kellog (39:07):
We're at eight.
Yep, so we're at eight right now, which is our first full
classroom, and once the firemarshal stamps off on all these
other things, we can openclassroom number two, which we
do have a I won't say a waitlist, but we have a list of
kiddos who are coming to us thissummer, so hopefully fire
(39:30):
marshal stamps us off in thenext two weeks and we're good to
go with we have a littleseparate building that's like a
tiny, cute standalone classroomthat we're operating out of now,
and then we have a largerschoolhouse that has two
classrooms, which is having afire suppression system
installed this week.
Hayley Broocks (39:49):
That's been fun.
Dr Andrew Greenland (39:50):
Yeah, so some of this is regulatory.
Is there anything else that youneed to get to your capacity?
I mean, if all the fire stuffwas sorted and everything was
signed off, what would it taketo get to 25?
Jenna Kellog (40:01):
We need some great marketing, some more word of
mouth and we need a really greatanother BCBA to join us, which
we just posted a link to hire anew BCBA.
Yesterday we posted it, so weknow we're going to need and
she's the master's levelclinician who's over the
one-to-one therapist.
So that'll be our next hurdleis getting a BCBA hired to get
(40:25):
this next classroom going, andthen we'll be good.
Dr Andrew Greenland (40:32):
Amazing to get this next classroom going
and then then we'll be good,yeah, amazing.
Look, jenna, I'm really reallygrateful for your time and
listening to your story, I'mreally impressed with what
you've created with adaptivepath.
Such a thoughtful conversationand really good having the both
of you here, because it'sinteresting having the dynamics
of two people running thebusiness.
So I think makes a reallyinteresting conversation.
So, really grateful for yourtime.
Thank you so much thank you somuch.
Hayley Broocks (40:49):
This was fun, yeah thank you.
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