October 10, 2025 • 29 mins
A wave of teen distress has swept through otherwise loving, intact families—panic attacks, self-harm, school avoidance—without the trauma histories clinicians typically expect. Psychotherapist and parent coach Nicole Runyon traces a common thread: unbounded devices and a culture that prizes comfort over challenge. We dive into how the modern home and school environment can quietly derail development, and why the fastest path to change is helping parents reclaim calm authority, not slotting children into an overburdened system.
Nicole lays out a clear, workable framework for raising independent young people: high love paired with high limits. We explore her four pillars—self-reflection, child development, technology, and independence—and how each one transforms daily life. From movement as the brain’s first teacher to device-free routines that restore sleep and focus, she shows how small, firm shifts in the environment reduce meltdowns, build resilience, and make room for growth. We also talk food, ultra-processed diets, and the subtle ways overstimulation fuels anxiety. Along the way, Nicole shares why she moved from child therapy to coaching parents, how keeping kids out of the coaching room avoids scapegoating, and what it takes to hold a boundary with warmth when backlash hits.
If you’ve felt tugged between “because I said so” and “anything to keep the peace,” this conversation offers a steadier middle. Expect practical steps, honest stories about pushback and rejection, and a hopeful message: parents are more powerful than they think. If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it today, and leave a quick review to help more families find these tools.
👤 Guest Biography
Nicole Runyon is a psychotherapist, keynote speaker, and parent coach with over two decades of experience working with children and families. She is the author of the best-selling book Free to Fly: The Secret to Fostering Independence in the Next Generation.
After witnessing a surge of mental-health struggles among adolescents, Nicole shifted her focus from treating children in therapy to empowering parents to lead with confidence, compassion, and clarity. Through her coaching programs and speaking engagements, she helps families set healthy boundaries around technology, nurture emotional resilience, and build deeper connections at home.
Contact Details and Social Media Handles
- 🔗 Website: nicolerunyon.com
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100091145239655
- Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolerunyonlmsw/
- 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/igenerationmentalhealth/
- 📘Book: Free to Fly: The Secret to Fostering Independence in the Next Generation - https://nicolerunyon.com/free-to-fly/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:01):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to
Voices in Health and Wellness.
This is the podcast where weexplore the stories, the
challenges, and thebreakthroughs shaping how we
care for ourselves and others.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and today I'mjoined by someone who's making
a profound impact on howfamilies grow and heal.
Nicole Runyon.
Nicole is a psychotherapist,keynote speaker, and parent
coach, and the author of thebest-selling book Free to Fly: A
(00:23):
Secret to FosteringIndependence in the Next
Generation.
Her work centers on helpingparents and caregivers cultivate
emotional independence, notjust in their children, but
within themselves, blendingclinical insight with compassion
and real-world tools forstronger, healthier family
dynamics.
Nicole, welcome.
Thank you for joining us andwelcome to the show.
Nicole Runyon (00:44):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:47):
Wonderful.
Perhaps you could start fromthe top.
Just tell us a little bit aboutyour journey and how you ended
up doing what you do.
Nicole Runyon (00:53):
I was seeing children in a psychotherapy
setting for about 20 years.
And right around 2014, 2015, Ihad noticed a pattern in my
practice that was quite bizarreand nothing I'd ever experienced
before.
I was getting an influx ofmainly adolescent girls who were
(01:16):
having severe mental healthexperiences.
They were coming out of thehospital after their first
suicide attempts.
They were self-harming, extremeeating disorders, panic
disorder to the point of notwanting to leave their rooms and
go to school and do anythingthat they used to enjoy.
And in my training, of course,with a child experiencing
(01:40):
extreme, severe mental healthissues, we understand that it's
always likely rooted in somekind of trauma, some kind of
environmental situation,neglect, abuse.
And none of that was happeningin these families that I was
working with.
Most families were intact.
(02:02):
Parents were loving andsupportive.
They were showing up, they werecoming to the therapy with the
kids.
And so I couldn't quite figureout why I was seeing the
severity of symptoms that I wasseeing.
And at the time, nobody wasreally talking about our broader
cultural issues with technologycoming on the scene, smart
devices, social media, and howit might be affecting our kids.
(02:25):
In fact, the the devices werebeing celebrated.
We thought it was going to makethe kids smarter and, you know,
this is the way of the future,and we need to teach them how to
use it.
But I saw a direct correlationwhen schools started to allow
the children to use theirdevices all day long to their
mental health symptoms.
And so I started talking aboutit.
(02:47):
But at the time, peopleweren't, they might have been
interested and fascinated andthought, yeah, there's probably
something to this, but notparticularly motivated to do
anything about it.
And then those years went intothe uh COVID years with the
lockdowns.
And then we had more kids onmore devices for longer.
And it became quite clear tomainstream that, yeah, these
(03:10):
devices are affecting theirmental health.
And so I decided that ratherthan seeing children for
therapy, pathologizing them,giving them diagnoses, pointing
the finger and saying, well,you're addicted to your device,
and so this is your problem.
I thought, what if I workedwith their parents?
It would be so much morepowerful to help the parents
(03:31):
step into their authority,change the environment, have
better limits on devices, ordon't have devices at all at
certain ages.
And then we're not only helpingthose mental health symptoms to
not have to go into a system,the mental health system, and be
medicated.
And, you know, a lot of timesit was making it worse to treat
(03:53):
this from a mental healthperspective.
But we could also preventyounger kids from entering into
the system because it's almostinevitable.
If we don't understand childdevelopment on a very deep level
and how these devices areinfiltrating that development
every single day, then we aregoing to continue to have this
(04:15):
influx of mentally ill children.
And we will never have theinfrastructure in the mental
health system to service thesekids.
And one of the other sort ofyou know um branches of this was
I was noticing that kids whoactually really do need therapy,
kids who have genuine trauma,they couldn't get the therapy
(04:38):
because there was no access.
The therapists I know that seechildren are often very booked
up, have a wait list.
So are the psychiatrists, soare the psychologists who are
doing psychological testingbecause a lot of parents are
seeking these diagnoses.
They want some kind of ananswer for why their children
are reacting the way they'rereacting.
(04:59):
And I think the kids are thecanaries in the coal mine.
They're sending us a messageand their behavior and their
mental health symptoms, and weneed to listen, and we're not
listening.
And so I my goal is to get thismessage out to as many people
as possible, parents, educators,anyone that's interfacing with
children, because we don'treally have a good understanding
(05:22):
of it in our culture, and weneed to, and that's what our
kids deserve is for us tounderstand it and step into our
authority and acknowledge thatwe have a part in it.
And we have like a much biggerpart than we think.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:35):
Thank you.
And we'll see, we'll go intothe meat of some of what you've
talked about around the devicesand working with families as we
go through.
But what was your inspirationfor becoming a psychotherapist
in the first place?
Nicole Runyon (05:45):
If we wind back even further, oh yeah, that's
way back.
Uh I knew that I wanted to be atherapist when I was 10 years
old.
I had always um loved youngerkids.
I was the older, I was on theolder end of my sib ships.
Uh, I there's five kids in myfamily.
I was also on the older end ofum my cousins, who I spent a lot
(06:06):
of time with growing up.
And I just always enjoyed beingwith younger kids and taking
care of them and playing withthem.
And um, my youngest brother isnine years older than nine years
younger than me.
And when he was a toddlingtoddler, I was about 10, and he
had fallen and scraped hisknees.
And uh at the time I thought,well, I want to either be a
(06:29):
pediatrician or I want to be achild therapist.
I don't even know how I knewwhat those things were at that
point in my life, but I did knowI wanted to help children.
And so he skinned his knees, Ihelped him clean it up and
bandaged it.
And the whole time I had thispit in my stomach.
And it wasn't like a weak atthe knees, side of the blood
kind of thing.
I don't, I, I don't mind blood,I don't mind um, you know,
(06:53):
things like that.
But I I came to realize that itwas like an empathy feeling.
And in that moment, I said tomyself, well, I guess I can't be
a pediatrician if I can'tmanage a knee scrape without,
you know, getting a pit in mystomach.
And so I thought, well, I'mgonna be a child therapist.
And I never wavered.
I uh graduated from collegeearly because I knew exactly
(07:14):
what I wanted.
And I, you know, set my majorvery quickly and just moved
forward with um with being ableto serve children.
And um I never looked back,never changed my mind.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:30):
I love hearing about the journey
because it's so interesting tohear how people have got from
got into what they do, and it'salways different and
interesting, and theinspirations and drivers that um
shape your kind of path ofdevelopment really, really
interesting.
So I guess since your workreally centers on helping both
parents and children find ahealthy sense of independence.
What does that mean to you andhow do you see it sort of
(07:52):
transforming the work you dowith families?
Nicole Runyon (07:56):
I think that the goal of parenting, and I have
two kids myself, is to do twothings.
One is we want them to be okayout in the world without us
because we aren't going to behere forever.
And two is we want them to dobetter than us.
We want to end any kind ofgenerational trauma.
(08:18):
We want to make sure that we umpass on uh, you know, wisdom
and uh what we've learned andthe mistakes we've made.
And certainly they're going tomake mistakes, but hopefully
they make different mistakes,not the same ones we did.
And, you know, I come from afamily, we we it's a Lebanese
(08:39):
family, and so um in ourculture, the parents are very
much interested in sacrificingfor their kids, and that there's
that energy of we want you todo better than we did, and we
want you to thrive, and we madesacrifices and did hard things
so that you could do that.
(09:01):
And that I bring that culturethat I was raised in into my
work very much.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:08):
Thank you.
And do you find the emotionalindependence looks different in
this generation of kids andparents compared to what's gone
before?
Nicole Runyon (09:16):
Absolutely, it looks different.
Um, I think culturally we haveparenting practices that what
are what I call the pendulumswing.
So we're on one end of thependulum in one generation.
And because there's woundingand we didn't like some of those
things, we go too far to theother end of the pendulum.
(09:38):
And so I think that's whatwe're doing right now with our
current generation of kids.
I think we didn't like thestrictness or the authoritarian
kind of parents that said, youknow, my way is it, my way goes,
and you don't get to decidebecause you're the kid and I'm
the adult.
We didn't like that.
And so we're going way too farin the other direction of
(10:00):
permissiveness, making our kidshappy, making them comfortable.
And what we really ought to bedoing is taking a little bit of
what we got, because some ofthat is good to have strict
rules and boundaries, to havehigh expectations and high
demands, to demand respect.
Um, but we also on the otherend want to have high love and
(10:22):
high support and um helping ourkids through the hard things,
not doing it for them, not uhchanging and making it easier,
acknowledging that life is hardand they're going to have some
challenges, allowing for that,but giving them a lot of love
and nurturing on the other endso that they feel like they can
(10:43):
and they're capable.
And somewhere in the middle isa really hard balance to strike
for most people.
But if we understand childdevelopment and what they need
and when they need it, then it'sa whole lot easier to give them
those challenges with the highlove.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:01):
Thank you.
Um, tell us a bit about thebook Free to Fly and
specifically what message wereyou trying to get through to
parents?
So, what did you want them totake away from having read the
book?
Nicole Runyon (11:11):
I want parents to know that with the knowledge,
um, you have a lot more powerthan you think you have.
I think we have outsourcedalmost everything in our lives
for convenience, including ourparenting.
And what I noticed in mypractice was that parents were
(11:33):
outsourcing connection to me.
And so I may have beensuccessful with their kids
because I know how to connect,but it was taking a long time.
And parents can connect totheir kids way quicker than I
can and make changes way quickerthan any therapist because
(11:54):
they're more positioned to doso.
And so I want them to feelconfident, I want them to be
sure of their ability to dothat, and I'm giving them uh the
knowledge in the book of childdevelopment uh in like lots of
in four different parts.
So there's the movement, kidsneed movement from day one, and
(12:18):
then movement scaffolds thebrain for growth.
So I talk about cognitivedevelopment, and then once
they're they're all set in theirbrain, then they can start to
go through the stages ofpsychosocial development, and
then they can have what's what Iconsider a connection to self,
which is three points inchildhood where children gain
their independence.
So I map that out for parents,and I think that with that
(12:41):
understanding, parents can knowthat they are so much more
powerful than they think theyare.
I do a lot of talking abouttechnology, I talk about food
and how ultra-processed foodwith um high sugar affects all
of that development and howtechnology infiltrates the
development.
And so I help parentsunderstand that if you if you
(13:05):
can say, no, we are not a familythat does what everybody else
is doing.
We are a family that you knowtakes care of our body and takes
care of our mind andprioritizes connection, then
you're going to have a thriving,healthy family and children can
grow into their maturity andtheir independence naturally.
(13:28):
And it's not as hard as youknow trying to navigate
everything going on in theculture and still trying to
raise kids who are independent.
Dr Andrew Greenland (13:39):
Thank you.
So, how receptive are familiesto doing this kind of work?
I mean, are they expecting toturn up and you're going to be
working with the child?
And when you kind of say, well,actually, I want to take a
broader approach and work withyou as a family, how is that
received?
Do you get any kind of pushbackor but just give me a sense of
things?
Nicole Runyon (13:56):
I get a lot of pushback.
Uh, I think we are in a therapyculture for sure.
I think we are um idolizingtherapy to uh to our detriment.
And I'm still a therapist.
I still see clients fortherapy.
Uh, I'm not anti-therapy, Idon't think there's anything
wrong with it, but I do thinkthat there's a problem when we
(14:19):
use it when we don't need it.
And it's causing a lot moreproblems to use it when we don't
need it.
So I really like uh for parentsto know that my process is one
where I help you help yourchild.
So I'm helping your childthrough you, and it doesn't take
as long.
(14:39):
You know, what would take meone to two years to do with a
child takes three months to workwith the parent.
And the pushback is it's veryanti-what everybody else is
doing.
What everyone else is doing isdropping their kids off to
therapy and picking them up,just like soccer practice.
And it's not working.
(15:01):
So uh it's so it's really hardto um change this paradigm for
people, but I believe verystrongly that this is the way
forward.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:15):
And I mean, specifically what things are
what what are the things thatthey push back on the most, or
what are the things you findhard to help them to make
changes with?
Are there any particularexamples that are particularly
challenging with the familiesyou work with?
Nicole Runyon (15:28):
Yeah.
Uh the technology, the screen,so the smart devices, the social
media, gaming is very addictivefor children.
And so what is the most commonissue is that there are symptoms
of addiction.
Uh, there's a lot of anger,there's meltdowns, there's um
even physical uh violence uhfrom the kids in the home to the
(15:54):
parents.
And the parents feel that theeverything is so out of control
that the problem is with the kidand there's nothing that they
can do.
So they think, well, my kidsare addicted to games, to video
games.
So I have to put them intherapy because the problem is
so big that they don't thinkthat there's anything they can
(16:15):
do about it.
Or anxiety is also a verycommon issue.
And so you have kids who areexperiencing panic attacks.
Um, they're school avoidant,they won't go to school, and
parents don't know how to, youknow, make them go out in the
world and be a part of things.
And so they're accommodatingthe anxiety by saying, okay, you
(16:36):
don't have to go to school, orokay, you don't have to do this.
I'm gonna make your life easy,and then I'm going to put you in
therapy.
But they're not acknowledgingwhat it took to get that kid to
be experiencing panic.
Because again, absent anytrauma, there is no reason why
kids should be at this level ofanxiety.
And I think parents uh need toacknowledge that the environment
(16:58):
is what's creating it, andthey're the ones that are
powerfully positioned to changethat environment.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:03):
Thank you.
I guess if you're working withfamilies, you must come across
um the parents' own traumas andboundary issues and
self-awareness issues.
How do you work with those whenyou're trying to help the
child?
You're trying to work with thebroader family, but you can
clearly see some inverted commasbaggage with the parents
themselves.
Nicole Runyon (17:21):
Yeah.
Well, I actually don't eveninclude the child in the in the
coaching that I'm doing withparents, uh, because unless
they're older, maybe if they'rean older teenager or a young
adult.
Um, but when when I include thechild, then it becomes it's
still the child is the focus andand sort of the scapegoat.
(17:42):
So I eliminate the child evenjust from the the room uh or the
zoom room, because I can I dothis on Zoom as well.
And um what I do is help theparents to see that um what's
missing for them is exactly whatyou're saying, the
self-reflection piece.
(18:03):
I work with them on fourpillars: self-reflection, child
development, technology, andindependence.
And what tends to happen is wefocus on the kid's behavior,
what the parents can do aboutthe behavior.
We kind of, in a sense, plugthat hole and things get calmer
because the child's behaviorstarts to get better.
(18:23):
That's where I start.
And then it inevitably becomesabout the parent.
Their stuff starts coming up.
They want to talk about hey,how did we get here?
Um, why do I react this way?
How can I sustainably uh, youknow, continue on with what I'm
learning here?
And yeah, what comes up is allthe things that they didn't get,
(18:47):
their unresolved childhoodwounds, their um missing
developmental uh stages.
And because it's coaching andnot therapy, um, I can help them
kind of move through that uhpretty quickly so that they can
feel like confident and sure ofthemselves that they can help
their children.
(19:08):
And I call it the mirror,that's the first chapter in my
book, is that we are reacting toum our kids based on our own
stuff.
And if we don't take ownershipof that and work through that,
then our parenting is going tobe really hard.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:23):
Thank you.
And you mentioned that earlieron there about the Zoom room.
I was just gonna ask you aboutum navigating hybrid models of
care because I know lots ofpractitioners are exploring
online programs, group coaching,speaking engagements.
How has that evolution playedout in your work and what you
do?
Nicole Runyon (19:37):
Uh it's opened up an entire, you know, world for
me.
I uh joke that I was livingunder a rock because my office,
when I was in private practice,is literally in the basement of
a building.
So um, you know, it was just meand by myself with the client.
And uh I didn't know that therewas this whole world of being
(20:01):
able to help people online uhuntil about two years ago when I
started to put my work uhonline and on social media and
writing the book and um tryingto uh get that out to people.
And I realized that uh I canhave such a big impact if you
know I'm speaking, I'm talkingto you, and you know, people are
(20:24):
hearing this message on abroader scale.
And it's it's quite empowering.
Dr Andrew Greenland (20:30):
Thank you.
And um obviously you're runninga business, you're seeing
patients, you have a clientbase.
What's working really well foryou in the from a business
perspective right now, in termsof the the way that you deliver
your model?
Nicole Runyon (20:42):
Uh actually being on podcasts like yours, uh, you
know, just people who otherwisewouldn't hear my message are
hearing it and um it'sresonating, and I'm getting to
meet uh people doing great worklike you.
And I love that.
That's my favorite part of it.
And I was very resistant uh toget on social media.
(21:03):
Obviously, I'm you know tellingparents to get kids off social
media, and then here I am onsocial media, uh, but I'm
realizing that there are somepositives to it, and um, you
know, you and I would have nevermet had it not been for social
media.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:16):
Well, I'm obviously very glad to have you
on this session, and obviouslywe do what we can to promote and
spread your word.
Um, on the flip side, I mean,what's um what's one of the sort
of challenges you've had toovercome in doing this work
recently or since you've umchanged your model?
Nicole Runyon (21:31):
Well, that pushback that we've talked
about, um, that's been thehardest part.
You know, it's um when you goagainst the status quo, it it
feels threatening to people.
And when people are threatened,they tend to attack.
And uh, you know, I knew thatthat this wasn't going to be
easy.
I wasn't naive.
I knew that people were gonnabe mad at me.
(21:53):
Um, I thought actually, thatthe people that were gonna be
mad at me were going to be mycolleagues, therapists, and you
know, educators.
Interestingly enough, they'renot mad at me at all.
They agree with me.
So um that's that's been apleasant surprise.
But I get a lot of pushbackfrom parents who have had
(22:14):
different experiences, right?
I mean, when you're talking toa broad group of people, when
you're talking to say everyparent, um, you're gonna get
parents who have had a differentexperience than what I'm
talking about.
Maybe their kid has beensuccessful in therapy.
Um, you know, maybe their kiddidn't need a lot of
(22:34):
independence.
I don't know.
I mean, I think all kids needindependence, but um what I'm
finding is that people take takewhat I say very personally.
And then the attacks are well,that wasn't my experience, and
you know, you're crazy and youdon't have the it's this is
hilarious.
You don't have the credentialsto be saying what you're saying,
even though I'm I've been alicensed therapist for 23 years.
(22:56):
So um, yeah, that's been thehardest part is um that not
taking it personally, acceptingthat not everybody's going to
like what I'm saying, and noteverybody's going to like me.
Um, and just the feeling thatrejection.
I've also had a lot of doorsslammed in my face, um, you
know, applied for speaking umengagements and uh tried to, you
(23:19):
know, get parents to uh hire meto coach them.
And there's a lot of rejectionin what I'm doing.
Uh, there certainly was nohardly any rejection ever when I
was a therapist.
I was full for five years.
And when I say full, I mean await list um so long that I had
to then turn people away.
(23:41):
And so it's that's been aninteresting metamorphosis, is I
had no idea that it was going tobe this hard to sell what I'm
trying to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (23:54):
In some ways, a waiting list is a nice
problem to have sometimes.
Um, not if it creates overwhelmon the other end of the thing,
I guess.
Nicole Runyon (24:02):
Well, sure.
From a business perspective, itwas great.
I, you know, I never had toworry about how I was going to
pay my bills, but that wasn'tsettling right for me.
Like I I wanted to make more ofa difference.
I didn't want to have to turnpeople away.
I wanted to serve thosefamilies that I couldn't see
(24:23):
one-on-one in a different way.
And I originally had thought,so I was just by myself in
private practice.
So originally I thought, well,I'll just start a group
practice.
I'll hire other therapists,they'll get to see these
referrals that I have to turnaway because I'm only one
person.
And then I realized I don'twant to do that either.
Because then that's just again,sort of perpetuating this idea
(24:48):
that it's the kids, it's thekids, it's the kids.
And so that's why I decided touh take this to more of a macro
uh level and speak to parentsand speak to people who are more
in control of our kids'environments.
And I knew I could make more ofan impact doing that, but it's
been hard.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:07):
Of course.
And if you had a magic wand andyou could fix any bottleneck in
the business tomorrow, and youwill exclude pushback because
you've already mentioned that,and the magic wand may not
stretch that far.
Well, is there anything elsethat you'd like to be able to
fix tomorrow with your magicwand?
Nicole Runyon (25:22):
Oh, I love that question.
There's so many things.
Um if I had a magic wand, Iwould uh maybe tap everybody's
forehead and say, just startthinking about this differently,
please.
You know, I don't have to beright.
You don't have to agree withme.
(25:43):
Maybe you decide I'm crazy.
That's fine.
But just open up your mind andthink about it.
Don't dismiss it right away.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:53):
Now, I don't know how powerful podcasts
are, but you never know who'slistening.
And you might get a massiveinflux of uh referrals or um
people wanting to work with younext week.
If that was to happen, whatwill be the first thing that
would break?
And don't hopefully say don'tnot you, but um just curious to
know because obviously youmentioned you had a wait list
before you're trying to scaleyour impact and your reach
(26:13):
without burning yourself out.
But what would happen if awhole raft of people turned up
on your doorstep next week?
Nicole Runyon (26:19):
Uh I would have to hire probably a virtual
assistant to manage the adminside of things.
Um, but you know, being infront of parents, that is
completely manageable for me.
That's where I thrive, that'swhere I'm most happy.
Um, I don't love the tech sideof what I'm trying to do.
So I would love to be able tohire somebody to do that for me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:41):
That's amazing.
And if you are starting againtomorrow with everything that
you knew from your experience,whether that be the coaching and
the speaking practice, is thereanything you would do
differently?
Nicole Runyon (26:54):
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I've made somemistakes, but I think I needed
to make those, so I learn.
And um, you know, thechallenge, the fact that it's
hard, is showing me every daythat I have the capacity to
manage way more than I everthought I could, and that I'm
capable of doing hard things.
(27:15):
And that feels really good.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:18):
Thank you.
And think about the future,next maybe the next six to
twelve months.
What do you most focus oncreating or improving going
forward?
Nicole Runyon (27:27):
Uh, I would like to have um more parents trust me
to work with them.
And then I would like for thoseparents to tell everyone they
know uh that the work with me isso powerful and um that they
they acknowledge that they havea part in what's going on in
(27:51):
their families, and they have abigger part than they think, and
they feel capable and strongenough to manage it with my
help.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:59):
Brilliant.
And finally, what's one pieceof advice you'd give to parents
who are feeling overwhelmed bythe pressure to get it right in
inverted commas?
Nicole Runyon (28:07):
Oh well, I just mentioned making mistakes and
accepting that because we learnfrom them.
And that's what I would tellparents is it's perfectly okay
to make mistakes as long as youlearn from them.
And when you learn from them,you go to your kids and you
apologize for those mistakes andyou allow them to experience
their own disappointment in youand their own pain of
(28:30):
experiencing your mistake.
Because our kids do need uhgood enough parents.
They don't need perfectparents, they need parents who
uh can acknowledge that thereare challenges and sit in that
pain with their kids and get tothe other side of it because
that's how our kids gainresiliency and learn and grow.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:53):
Um and on that profound note, Nicole, I
would like to thank you so verymuch for joining us on this call
for your interesting,insightful, and very honest
conversation about you, yourwork, what you do, talking a
little bit about your book,which we'll obviously put on the
bio page and promote as part ofthis.
But I'd really like to thankyou so much for joining me.
Nicole Runyon (29:11):
Thank you for having me.
This was a lovely conversation.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to
Voices in Health and Wellness.
This is the podcast where weexplore the stories, the
challenges, and thebreakthroughs shaping how we
care for ourselves and others.
I'm your host, Dr.
Andrew Greenland, and today I'mjoined by someone who's making
a profound impact on howfamilies grow and heal.
Nicole Runyon.
Nicole is a psychotherapist,keynote speaker, and parent
coach, and the author of thebest-selling book Free to Fly: A
(00:23):
Secret to FosteringIndependence in the Next
Generation.
Her work centers on helpingparents and caregivers cultivate
emotional independence, notjust in their children, but
within themselves, blendingclinical insight with compassion
and real-world tools forstronger, healthier family
dynamics.
Nicole, welcome.
Thank you for joining us andwelcome to the show.
Nicole Runyon (00:44):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Dr Andrew Greenland (00:47):
Wonderful.
Perhaps you could start fromthe top.
Just tell us a little bit aboutyour journey and how you ended
up doing what you do.
Nicole Runyon (00:53):
I was seeing children in a psychotherapy
setting for about 20 years.
And right around 2014, 2015, Ihad noticed a pattern in my
practice that was quite bizarreand nothing I'd ever experienced
before.
I was getting an influx ofmainly adolescent girls who were
(01:16):
having severe mental healthexperiences.
They were coming out of thehospital after their first
suicide attempts.
They were self-harming, extremeeating disorders, panic
disorder to the point of notwanting to leave their rooms and
go to school and do anythingthat they used to enjoy.
And in my training, of course,with a child experiencing
(01:40):
extreme, severe mental healthissues, we understand that it's
always likely rooted in somekind of trauma, some kind of
environmental situation,neglect, abuse.
And none of that was happeningin these families that I was
working with.
Most families were intact.
(02:02):
Parents were loving andsupportive.
They were showing up, they werecoming to the therapy with the
kids.
And so I couldn't quite figureout why I was seeing the
severity of symptoms that I wasseeing.
And at the time, nobody wasreally talking about our broader
cultural issues with technologycoming on the scene, smart
devices, social media, and howit might be affecting our kids.
(02:25):
In fact, the the devices werebeing celebrated.
We thought it was going to makethe kids smarter and, you know,
this is the way of the future,and we need to teach them how to
use it.
But I saw a direct correlationwhen schools started to allow
the children to use theirdevices all day long to their
mental health symptoms.
And so I started talking aboutit.
(02:47):
But at the time, peopleweren't, they might have been
interested and fascinated andthought, yeah, there's probably
something to this, but notparticularly motivated to do
anything about it.
And then those years went intothe uh COVID years with the
lockdowns.
And then we had more kids onmore devices for longer.
And it became quite clear tomainstream that, yeah, these
(03:10):
devices are affecting theirmental health.
And so I decided that ratherthan seeing children for
therapy, pathologizing them,giving them diagnoses, pointing
the finger and saying, well,you're addicted to your device,
and so this is your problem.
I thought, what if I workedwith their parents?
It would be so much morepowerful to help the parents
(03:31):
step into their authority,change the environment, have
better limits on devices, ordon't have devices at all at
certain ages.
And then we're not only helpingthose mental health symptoms to
not have to go into a system,the mental health system, and be
medicated.
And, you know, a lot of timesit was making it worse to treat
(03:53):
this from a mental healthperspective.
But we could also preventyounger kids from entering into
the system because it's almostinevitable.
If we don't understand childdevelopment on a very deep level
and how these devices areinfiltrating that development
every single day, then we aregoing to continue to have this
(04:15):
influx of mentally ill children.
And we will never have theinfrastructure in the mental
health system to service thesekids.
And one of the other sort ofyou know um branches of this was
I was noticing that kids whoactually really do need therapy,
kids who have genuine trauma,they couldn't get the therapy
(04:38):
because there was no access.
The therapists I know that seechildren are often very booked
up, have a wait list.
So are the psychiatrists, soare the psychologists who are
doing psychological testingbecause a lot of parents are
seeking these diagnoses.
They want some kind of ananswer for why their children
are reacting the way they'rereacting.
(04:59):
And I think the kids are thecanaries in the coal mine.
They're sending us a messageand their behavior and their
mental health symptoms, and weneed to listen, and we're not
listening.
And so I my goal is to get thismessage out to as many people
as possible, parents, educators,anyone that's interfacing with
children, because we don'treally have a good understanding
(05:22):
of it in our culture, and weneed to, and that's what our
kids deserve is for us tounderstand it and step into our
authority and acknowledge thatwe have a part in it.
And we have like a much biggerpart than we think.
Dr Andrew Greenland (05:35):
Thank you.
And we'll see, we'll go intothe meat of some of what you've
talked about around the devicesand working with families as we
go through.
But what was your inspirationfor becoming a psychotherapist
in the first place?
Nicole Runyon (05:45):
If we wind back even further, oh yeah, that's
way back.
Uh I knew that I wanted to be atherapist when I was 10 years
old.
I had always um loved youngerkids.
I was the older, I was on theolder end of my sib ships.
Uh, I there's five kids in myfamily.
I was also on the older end ofum my cousins, who I spent a lot
(06:06):
of time with growing up.
And I just always enjoyed beingwith younger kids and taking
care of them and playing withthem.
And um, my youngest brother isnine years older than nine years
younger than me.
And when he was a toddlingtoddler, I was about 10, and he
had fallen and scraped hisknees.
And uh at the time I thought,well, I want to either be a
(06:29):
pediatrician or I want to be achild therapist.
I don't even know how I knewwhat those things were at that
point in my life, but I did knowI wanted to help children.
And so he skinned his knees, Ihelped him clean it up and
bandaged it.
And the whole time I had thispit in my stomach.
And it wasn't like a weak atthe knees, side of the blood
kind of thing.
I don't, I, I don't mind blood,I don't mind um, you know,
(06:53):
things like that.
But I I came to realize that itwas like an empathy feeling.
And in that moment, I said tomyself, well, I guess I can't be
a pediatrician if I can'tmanage a knee scrape without,
you know, getting a pit in mystomach.
And so I thought, well, I'mgonna be a child therapist.
And I never wavered.
I uh graduated from collegeearly because I knew exactly
(07:14):
what I wanted.
And I, you know, set my majorvery quickly and just moved
forward with um with being ableto serve children.
And um I never looked back,never changed my mind.
Dr Andrew Greenland (07:30):
I love hearing about the journey
because it's so interesting tohear how people have got from
got into what they do, and it'salways different and
interesting, and theinspirations and drivers that um
shape your kind of path ofdevelopment really, really
interesting.
So I guess since your workreally centers on helping both
parents and children find ahealthy sense of independence.
What does that mean to you andhow do you see it sort of
(07:52):
transforming the work you dowith families?
Nicole Runyon (07:56):
I think that the goal of parenting, and I have
two kids myself, is to do twothings.
One is we want them to be okayout in the world without us
because we aren't going to behere forever.
And two is we want them to dobetter than us.
We want to end any kind ofgenerational trauma.
(08:18):
We want to make sure that we umpass on uh, you know, wisdom
and uh what we've learned andthe mistakes we've made.
And certainly they're going tomake mistakes, but hopefully
they make different mistakes,not the same ones we did.
And, you know, I come from afamily, we we it's a Lebanese
(08:39):
family, and so um in ourculture, the parents are very
much interested in sacrificingfor their kids, and that there's
that energy of we want you todo better than we did, and we
want you to thrive, and we madesacrifices and did hard things
so that you could do that.
(09:01):
And that I bring that culturethat I was raised in into my
work very much.
Dr Andrew Greenland (09:08):
Thank you.
And do you find the emotionalindependence looks different in
this generation of kids andparents compared to what's gone
before?
Nicole Runyon (09:16):
Absolutely, it looks different.
Um, I think culturally we haveparenting practices that what
are what I call the pendulumswing.
So we're on one end of thependulum in one generation.
And because there's woundingand we didn't like some of those
things, we go too far to theother end of the pendulum.
(09:38):
And so I think that's whatwe're doing right now with our
current generation of kids.
I think we didn't like thestrictness or the authoritarian
kind of parents that said, youknow, my way is it, my way goes,
and you don't get to decidebecause you're the kid and I'm
the adult.
We didn't like that.
And so we're going way too farin the other direction of
(10:00):
permissiveness, making our kidshappy, making them comfortable.
And what we really ought to bedoing is taking a little bit of
what we got, because some ofthat is good to have strict
rules and boundaries, to havehigh expectations and high
demands, to demand respect.
Um, but we also on the otherend want to have high love and
(10:22):
high support and um helping ourkids through the hard things,
not doing it for them, not uhchanging and making it easier,
acknowledging that life is hardand they're going to have some
challenges, allowing for that,but giving them a lot of love
and nurturing on the other endso that they feel like they can
(10:43):
and they're capable.
And somewhere in the middle isa really hard balance to strike
for most people.
But if we understand childdevelopment and what they need
and when they need it, then it'sa whole lot easier to give them
those challenges with the highlove.
Dr Andrew Greenland (11:01):
Thank you.
Um, tell us a bit about thebook Free to Fly and
specifically what message wereyou trying to get through to
parents?
So, what did you want them totake away from having read the
book?
Nicole Runyon (11:11):
I want parents to know that with the knowledge,
um, you have a lot more powerthan you think you have.
I think we have outsourcedalmost everything in our lives
for convenience, including ourparenting.
And what I noticed in mypractice was that parents were
(11:33):
outsourcing connection to me.
And so I may have beensuccessful with their kids
because I know how to connect,but it was taking a long time.
And parents can connect totheir kids way quicker than I
can and make changes way quickerthan any therapist because
(11:54):
they're more positioned to doso.
And so I want them to feelconfident, I want them to be
sure of their ability to dothat, and I'm giving them uh the
knowledge in the book of childdevelopment uh in like lots of
in four different parts.
So there's the movement, kidsneed movement from day one, and
(12:18):
then movement scaffolds thebrain for growth.
So I talk about cognitivedevelopment, and then once
they're they're all set in theirbrain, then they can start to
go through the stages ofpsychosocial development, and
then they can have what's what Iconsider a connection to self,
which is three points inchildhood where children gain
their independence.
So I map that out for parents,and I think that with that
(12:41):
understanding, parents can knowthat they are so much more
powerful than they think theyare.
I do a lot of talking abouttechnology, I talk about food
and how ultra-processed foodwith um high sugar affects all
of that development and howtechnology infiltrates the
development.
And so I help parentsunderstand that if you if you
(13:05):
can say, no, we are not a familythat does what everybody else
is doing.
We are a family that you knowtakes care of our body and takes
care of our mind andprioritizes connection, then
you're going to have a thriving,healthy family and children can
grow into their maturity andtheir independence naturally.
(13:28):
And it's not as hard as youknow trying to navigate
everything going on in theculture and still trying to
raise kids who are independent.
Dr Andrew Greenland (13:39):
Thank you.
So, how receptive are familiesto doing this kind of work?
I mean, are they expecting toturn up and you're going to be
working with the child?
And when you kind of say, well,actually, I want to take a
broader approach and work withyou as a family, how is that
received?
Do you get any kind of pushbackor but just give me a sense of
things?
Nicole Runyon (13:56):
I get a lot of pushback.
Uh, I think we are in a therapyculture for sure.
I think we are um idolizingtherapy to uh to our detriment.
And I'm still a therapist.
I still see clients fortherapy.
Uh, I'm not anti-therapy, Idon't think there's anything
wrong with it, but I do thinkthat there's a problem when we
(14:19):
use it when we don't need it.
And it's causing a lot moreproblems to use it when we don't
need it.
So I really like uh for parentsto know that my process is one
where I help you help yourchild.
So I'm helping your childthrough you, and it doesn't take
as long.
(14:39):
You know, what would take meone to two years to do with a
child takes three months to workwith the parent.
And the pushback is it's veryanti-what everybody else is
doing.
What everyone else is doing isdropping their kids off to
therapy and picking them up,just like soccer practice.
And it's not working.
(15:01):
So uh it's so it's really hardto um change this paradigm for
people, but I believe verystrongly that this is the way
forward.
Dr Andrew Greenland (15:15):
And I mean, specifically what things are
what what are the things thatthey push back on the most, or
what are the things you findhard to help them to make
changes with?
Are there any particularexamples that are particularly
challenging with the familiesyou work with?
Nicole Runyon (15:28):
Yeah.
Uh the technology, the screen,so the smart devices, the social
media, gaming is very addictivefor children.
And so what is the most commonissue is that there are symptoms
of addiction.
Uh, there's a lot of anger,there's meltdowns, there's um
even physical uh violence uhfrom the kids in the home to the
(15:54):
parents.
And the parents feel that theeverything is so out of control
that the problem is with the kidand there's nothing that they
can do.
So they think, well, my kidsare addicted to games, to video
games.
So I have to put them intherapy because the problem is
so big that they don't thinkthat there's anything they can
(16:15):
do about it.
Or anxiety is also a verycommon issue.
And so you have kids who areexperiencing panic attacks.
Um, they're school avoidant,they won't go to school, and
parents don't know how to, youknow, make them go out in the
world and be a part of things.
And so they're accommodatingthe anxiety by saying, okay, you
(16:36):
don't have to go to school, orokay, you don't have to do this.
I'm gonna make your life easy,and then I'm going to put you in
therapy.
But they're not acknowledgingwhat it took to get that kid to
be experiencing panic.
Because again, absent anytrauma, there is no reason why
kids should be at this level ofanxiety.
And I think parents uh need toacknowledge that the environment
(16:58):
is what's creating it, andthey're the ones that are
powerfully positioned to changethat environment.
Dr Andrew Greenland (17:03):
Thank you.
I guess if you're working withfamilies, you must come across
um the parents' own traumas andboundary issues and
self-awareness issues.
How do you work with those whenyou're trying to help the
child?
You're trying to work with thebroader family, but you can
clearly see some inverted commasbaggage with the parents
themselves.
Nicole Runyon (17:21):
Yeah.
Well, I actually don't eveninclude the child in the in the
coaching that I'm doing withparents, uh, because unless
they're older, maybe if they'rean older teenager or a young
adult.
Um, but when when I include thechild, then it becomes it's
still the child is the focus andand sort of the scapegoat.
(17:42):
So I eliminate the child evenjust from the the room uh or the
zoom room, because I can I dothis on Zoom as well.
And um what I do is help theparents to see that um what's
missing for them is exactly whatyou're saying, the
self-reflection piece.
(18:03):
I work with them on fourpillars: self-reflection, child
development, technology, andindependence.
And what tends to happen is wefocus on the kid's behavior,
what the parents can do aboutthe behavior.
We kind of, in a sense, plugthat hole and things get calmer
because the child's behaviorstarts to get better.
(18:23):
That's where I start.
And then it inevitably becomesabout the parent.
Their stuff starts coming up.
They want to talk about hey,how did we get here?
Um, why do I react this way?
How can I sustainably uh, youknow, continue on with what I'm
learning here?
And yeah, what comes up is allthe things that they didn't get,
(18:47):
their unresolved childhoodwounds, their um missing
developmental uh stages.
And because it's coaching andnot therapy, um, I can help them
kind of move through that uhpretty quickly so that they can
feel like confident and sure ofthemselves that they can help
their children.
(19:08):
And I call it the mirror,that's the first chapter in my
book, is that we are reacting toum our kids based on our own
stuff.
And if we don't take ownershipof that and work through that,
then our parenting is going tobe really hard.
Dr Andrew Greenland (19:23):
Thank you.
And you mentioned that earlieron there about the Zoom room.
I was just gonna ask you aboutum navigating hybrid models of
care because I know lots ofpractitioners are exploring
online programs, group coaching,speaking engagements.
How has that evolution playedout in your work and what you
do?
Nicole Runyon (19:37):
Uh it's opened up an entire, you know, world for
me.
I uh joke that I was livingunder a rock because my office,
when I was in private practice,is literally in the basement of
a building.
So um, you know, it was just meand by myself with the client.
And uh I didn't know that therewas this whole world of being
(20:01):
able to help people online uhuntil about two years ago when I
started to put my work uhonline and on social media and
writing the book and um tryingto uh get that out to people.
And I realized that uh I canhave such a big impact if you
know I'm speaking, I'm talkingto you, and you know, people are
(20:24):
hearing this message on abroader scale.
And it's it's quite empowering.
Dr Andrew Greenland (20:30):
Thank you.
And um obviously you're runninga business, you're seeing
patients, you have a clientbase.
What's working really well foryou in the from a business
perspective right now, in termsof the the way that you deliver
your model?
Nicole Runyon (20:42):
Uh actually being on podcasts like yours, uh, you
know, just people who otherwisewouldn't hear my message are
hearing it and um it'sresonating, and I'm getting to
meet uh people doing great worklike you.
And I love that.
That's my favorite part of it.
And I was very resistant uh toget on social media.
(21:03):
Obviously, I'm you know tellingparents to get kids off social
media, and then here I am onsocial media, uh, but I'm
realizing that there are somepositives to it, and um, you
know, you and I would have nevermet had it not been for social
media.
Dr Andrew Greenland (21:16):
Well, I'm obviously very glad to have you
on this session, and obviouslywe do what we can to promote and
spread your word.
Um, on the flip side, I mean,what's um what's one of the sort
of challenges you've had toovercome in doing this work
recently or since you've umchanged your model?
Nicole Runyon (21:31):
Well, that pushback that we've talked
about, um, that's been thehardest part.
You know, it's um when you goagainst the status quo, it it
feels threatening to people.
And when people are threatened,they tend to attack.
And uh, you know, I knew thatthat this wasn't going to be
easy.
I wasn't naive.
I knew that people were gonnabe mad at me.
(21:53):
Um, I thought actually, thatthe people that were gonna be
mad at me were going to be mycolleagues, therapists, and you
know, educators.
Interestingly enough, they'renot mad at me at all.
They agree with me.
So um that's that's been apleasant surprise.
But I get a lot of pushbackfrom parents who have had
(22:14):
different experiences, right?
I mean, when you're talking toa broad group of people, when
you're talking to say everyparent, um, you're gonna get
parents who have had a differentexperience than what I'm
talking about.
Maybe their kid has beensuccessful in therapy.
Um, you know, maybe their kiddidn't need a lot of
(22:34):
independence.
I don't know.
I mean, I think all kids needindependence, but um what I'm
finding is that people take takewhat I say very personally.
And then the attacks are well,that wasn't my experience, and
you know, you're crazy and youdon't have the it's this is
hilarious.
You don't have the credentialsto be saying what you're saying,
even though I'm I've been alicensed therapist for 23 years.
(22:56):
So um, yeah, that's been thehardest part is um that not
taking it personally, acceptingthat not everybody's going to
like what I'm saying, and noteverybody's going to like me.
Um, and just the feeling thatrejection.
I've also had a lot of doorsslammed in my face, um, you
know, applied for speaking umengagements and uh tried to, you
(23:19):
know, get parents to uh hire meto coach them.
And there's a lot of rejectionin what I'm doing.
Uh, there certainly was nohardly any rejection ever when I
was a therapist.
I was full for five years.
And when I say full, I mean await list um so long that I had
to then turn people away.
(23:41):
And so it's that's been aninteresting metamorphosis, is I
had no idea that it was going tobe this hard to sell what I'm
trying to do.
Dr Andrew Greenland (23:54):
In some ways, a waiting list is a nice
problem to have sometimes.
Um, not if it creates overwhelmon the other end of the thing,
I guess.
Nicole Runyon (24:02):
Well, sure.
From a business perspective, itwas great.
I, you know, I never had toworry about how I was going to
pay my bills, but that wasn'tsettling right for me.
Like I I wanted to make more ofa difference.
I didn't want to have to turnpeople away.
I wanted to serve thosefamilies that I couldn't see
(24:23):
one-on-one in a different way.
And I originally had thought,so I was just by myself in
private practice.
So originally I thought, well,I'll just start a group
practice.
I'll hire other therapists,they'll get to see these
referrals that I have to turnaway because I'm only one
person.
And then I realized I don'twant to do that either.
Because then that's just again,sort of perpetuating this idea
(24:48):
that it's the kids, it's thekids, it's the kids.
And so that's why I decided touh take this to more of a macro
uh level and speak to parentsand speak to people who are more
in control of our kids'environments.
And I knew I could make more ofan impact doing that, but it's
been hard.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:07):
Of course.
And if you had a magic wand andyou could fix any bottleneck in
the business tomorrow, and youwill exclude pushback because
you've already mentioned that,and the magic wand may not
stretch that far.
Well, is there anything elsethat you'd like to be able to
fix tomorrow with your magicwand?
Nicole Runyon (25:22):
Oh, I love that question.
There's so many things.
Um if I had a magic wand, Iwould uh maybe tap everybody's
forehead and say, just startthinking about this differently,
please.
You know, I don't have to beright.
You don't have to agree withme.
(25:43):
Maybe you decide I'm crazy.
That's fine.
But just open up your mind andthink about it.
Don't dismiss it right away.
Dr Andrew Greenland (25:53):
Now, I don't know how powerful podcasts
are, but you never know who'slistening.
And you might get a massiveinflux of uh referrals or um
people wanting to work with younext week.
If that was to happen, whatwill be the first thing that
would break?
And don't hopefully say don'tnot you, but um just curious to
know because obviously youmentioned you had a wait list
before you're trying to scaleyour impact and your reach
(26:13):
without burning yourself out.
But what would happen if awhole raft of people turned up
on your doorstep next week?
Nicole Runyon (26:19):
Uh I would have to hire probably a virtual
assistant to manage the adminside of things.
Um, but you know, being infront of parents, that is
completely manageable for me.
That's where I thrive, that'swhere I'm most happy.
Um, I don't love the tech sideof what I'm trying to do.
So I would love to be able tohire somebody to do that for me.
Dr Andrew Greenland (26:41):
That's amazing.
And if you are starting againtomorrow with everything that
you knew from your experience,whether that be the coaching and
the speaking practice, is thereanything you would do
differently?
Nicole Runyon (26:54):
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I've made somemistakes, but I think I needed
to make those, so I learn.
And um, you know, thechallenge, the fact that it's
hard, is showing me every daythat I have the capacity to
manage way more than I everthought I could, and that I'm
capable of doing hard things.
(27:15):
And that feels really good.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:18):
Thank you.
And think about the future,next maybe the next six to
twelve months.
What do you most focus oncreating or improving going
forward?
Nicole Runyon (27:27):
Uh, I would like to have um more parents trust me
to work with them.
And then I would like for thoseparents to tell everyone they
know uh that the work with me isso powerful and um that they
they acknowledge that they havea part in what's going on in
(27:51):
their families, and they have abigger part than they think, and
they feel capable and strongenough to manage it with my
help.
Dr Andrew Greenland (27:59):
Brilliant.
And finally, what's one pieceof advice you'd give to parents
who are feeling overwhelmed bythe pressure to get it right in
inverted commas?
Nicole Runyon (28:07):
Oh well, I just mentioned making mistakes and
accepting that because we learnfrom them.
And that's what I would tellparents is it's perfectly okay
to make mistakes as long as youlearn from them.
And when you learn from them,you go to your kids and you
apologize for those mistakes andyou allow them to experience
their own disappointment in youand their own pain of
(28:30):
experiencing your mistake.
Because our kids do need uhgood enough parents.
They don't need perfectparents, they need parents who
uh can acknowledge that thereare challenges and sit in that
pain with their kids and get tothe other side of it because
that's how our kids gainresiliency and learn and grow.
Dr Andrew Greenland (28:53):
Um and on that profound note, Nicole, I
would like to thank you so verymuch for joining us on this call
for your interesting,insightful, and very honest
conversation about you, yourwork, what you do, talking a
little bit about your book,which we'll obviously put on the
bio page and promote as part ofthis.
But I'd really like to thankyou so much for joining me.
Nicole Runyon (29:11):
Thank you for having me.
This was a lovely conversation.
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