June 25, 2025 • 44 mins
On this special episode of Voices of Recovery, we sit down with Glen—a former civil servant whose path took an unexpected turn when addiction brought his career in public service to an end. Yet, in losing one form of service, Glen discovered another: helping those who still struggle in active addiction.
Glen’s journey to recovery began with a lifeline—a union representative who recognized his pain and guided him to a place where hope was possible. Embracing recovery, Glen poured himself into service, rising through the ranks and taking on leadership within the fellowship. But the disease of addiction is cunning, baffling, and insidious, and Glen’s journey would be tested by relapse.
In this powerful and deeply honest episode, Glen shares what it was like to lose his way, the pain and lessons of relapse, and the moment he decided to return—fully, and with open eyes—to the path of recovery. He speaks candidly about how his disease got the best of him, and how getting clean meant coming clean, both with himself and with others.
Today, Glen faces the future with newfound humility and hope, grounded in the fellowship and service that first gave him a second chance. His story is a testament to the power of honesty, the importance of support, and the promise that, no matter how far we fall, we can rise again.
Join us as Glen shares his truth, his struggles, and his renewed sense of purpose on the Voices of Recovery podcast. This is a story about resilience, redemption, and the unwavering hope for a better tomorrow.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
You're listening to the Voices of Recovery podcast.
This is a special episode featuring a recovering addict.
Hi, my name is Sophie X. I'm the host and producer of the
(00:27):
Voices of Recovery podcast. I'm joined here today by Glenn.
Hi, Glenn. Thanks so much for being here.
Thanks Sophie, great to be here.Thank you so much for doing our
Just for Today and It's Bad readings.
You're quite welcome, I enjoyed.It you have a wonderful,
wonderful radio announcer voice,so I couldn't have picked a
better person. It's a it's a lost dream that's
awakening right now for me. Yeah, you know, Danny spoke
(00:50):
about lost streams awaken, new possibilities arise.
I think that's how she said it. You know, I'm really happy to
have you here and thank you so much for being one of my first
guests on the Return to RecoveryAfter Relapse series of the
Voices of Recovery podcast. It's it's an honor and I, I hope
somebody that hears your podcastidentifies and makes the
decision to get into recovery. Absolutely, yeah.
(01:12):
Or stay, right, because for a lot of us, it's, you know, the
struggle is staying. Absolutely.
So I, I would love for you to, you know, introduce yourself
just a little bit, tell me abouthow you came to recovery and you
also have relapse in your story,right?
I do. Yeah.
So I would love to hear about your past, what got you into
(01:32):
recovery, how you went out and how you came back in and how
you've stayed this time around. Thanks.
I, I, I would love to share thatwith you.
So my name is Glenn. I grew up right here on the
South Shore of the Long Island, a pretty typical upbringing with
a loving family. My parents are actually
immigrants to the United States.They came over from Europe after
(01:56):
World War 2 and started buildinga life and the American dream.
And they had my sister and then they had me.
And I feel like my sister and I grew up with every advantage.
You know, sometimes when we cometo the rooms, we hear stories
about trauma and abuse and mistreatment, maltreatment.
(02:20):
That's not my story. And the longer I stay in
Narcotics Anonymous, the more I hear stories that sound a little
bit like mine. But the the feelings are all the
same. And you know, there's a saying
from Park Ave. to the park benchthat in my own way, yeah, that
(02:40):
that applies to me. I, I started hanging out with my
friends in mostly high school. And I'll say I never picked up a
drug till much later on. But we drank, we drank beer on
the weekends. We we'd pay somebody to go into
711 and buy a case of beer for us.
(03:01):
And we would make sure we would drink that whole thing that
night. In fact, I looking back, I feel
like I was a little competitive where we were all getting drunk.
I wanted to beat them and I got hammered.
And, and that went on through mycollege years.
And I'd say about 15, you know, with the, the alcohol.
(03:25):
And you know, this, they say this disease we have of
addiction is cunning, baffling and insidious.
So from drinking, nothing bad ever happened.
Sure, I had a hangover here and there.
Maybe, maybe my mom and dad weremad at us for having a, a New
Year's Eve party that got out ofhand, but I never had a
(03:46):
consequence from just drinking. So somehow I thought it was
normal. It's what everybody does.
I was definitely doing it just to fit in and have friends.
And my life goes on and I, I start in a career.
It was a position of trust in the community and it was
something I wanted to do becauseit was exciting.
(04:06):
It was a civil service position.But I, I went on and, and you
know, started building a life, got married, had some kids.
And I was actually helping a Co worker move one day and I was
carrying a mattress on my head, not too smart.
(04:26):
And I felt something snap in my neck and my shoulder and one of
the other guys that I worked with said, oh, wow, you're
hurting. Here's I have an idea.
Go up to my doctor up there in the next town over and he'll
give you something that'll make you feel a lot better.
Now mind you, this was the late 1990s and painkillers were
(04:49):
prescribed pretty freely, not ascontrolled as a controlled
substance you would think it would be.
Nowadays it's very difficult fordoctors to write prescriptions
for opiate pain medicine. So I'll admit I was naive and I
went there, was examined, walkedout with a script for Vicodin,
(05:10):
which was a popular painkiller back then.
Being naive or just compliant orwhatever, I always followed the
directions on the label of whatever I was prescribed.
And this is my first experience,though, with a painkiller.
So I took so take one every fourto six hours for pain.
And I did and didn't really feelthat great.
(05:32):
I mean, I still was in a lot of pain.
Next day I see the same guy thatreferred me to his doctor.
He says, So how you feeling? I said, still a lot of pain, Bob
still hurts. Well, what'd you do?
I said. I took as direct one every four
to six for pain. He goes no, no, no, no, no, no.
(05:53):
Start by taking four and then let me know how you feel.
Oh. My.
Goodness. Being driven by physical pain,
wanting to just feel good. Trusted the guy, went home and
did that and within a few minutes I felt it kicking in and
I felt something I had never felt before my whole life.
(06:13):
It was a euphoria. It made all the physical pain go
away too, which was fantastic. But mentally I felt fantastic.
I felt like if I ever suffered, I probably did from like
borderline anxiety, depression when I was younger.
All that was gone too. I had like a new energy to get
(06:36):
things done. I felt like I was much more
conversational and likable. And I can remember at that time
making a conscious decision thatthis must be a chemical that's
been missing in my brain my whole life.
So you felt it chemically alter your brain is what you're
saying? Yes, absolutely.
(06:57):
I mean, I'm smart enough to knowthat there's chemicals and it's
attacking and blocking a pain. I didn't know what the high of a
narcotic drug was until that moment in my life.
And I was in my late 20s, so I got started, older than many
others in my position, and I sawnothing wrong with it.
They were being written by a medical doctor with a diploma on
(07:21):
the wall. He wouldn't do anything to hurt
me. So that went on and I found that
the the same to get the same release relief from the pain and
that same high that I was reallystarting to like I had to take
more, you know, the four a day wasn't doing it anymore and that
(07:41):
those quantities increased quitea bit.
And just to make a Long story short, that turns into about a
10 year nightmare. I, I couldn't stop.
I, I, the, I didn't have much trouble getting the pills.
I had trouble stopping. And I can remember the fear that
(08:02):
said, and the uncomfortableness on a Sunday night having run
out, knowing that I'm going to feel like death in a little
while. And those are called
withdrawals. I educated myself on this.
The Internet was new back then and I was looking for quick
remedies to get off these things.
Nothing worked. Nothing worked.
(08:24):
And then it was 2006 that I hit my first bottom.
I was driving and, and drinking.Now, you know, I was also mixing
up, you know, drinking on these things.
I underestimated alcohol, but I,I crashed a, a vehicle that was
not mine. It was my company vehicle.
(08:44):
I crashed it into a tree right in front of my house and oh boy,
now I was like, now I'm in trouble and what?
I while you're under the influence.
Absolutely, as a civil servant. As a civil servant.
Yeah, And I'd somehow made it home from the Bronx, a Yankee
game. Yankees are one of my passions.
And, you know, I remember going to try.
(09:05):
I I I have to cover this up. I have to hide this.
Nobody can find out about this. And I went to a collision place,
paid somebody cash just to get it done because and, and I find
out later that my Co workers, myemployer, my family had been
watching me for quite a while. I was late for everything.
(09:26):
I would disappear. I'll tell you, being a drug
addict 24/7 became my full time job.
I was putting it ahead of my family.
I was putting it ahead of my career.
I was at the top of my game then, right?
You couldn't go much higher thanwhere I was in this
organization, but it doesn't discriminate the disease.
And I was in serious trouble. And because of that incident, I
(09:51):
was suspended. My employer came to my door,
took my credentials, took the car keys.
But the next person at my door was a blessing, and that was my
union president. And he says to me, you know,
we've been watching you for a while, Glenn, you need help.
We don't know what's wrong with you, but we know you're not
(10:11):
yourself anymore. You haven't been in a long time.
You're nodding out. You're not showing up for
things. You're disheveled.
And that's when I, and I later learned the word is surrender.
I had tried everything else and nothing worked.
I can remember going from, you know, mental health social
(10:34):
worker lied to them about being an addict.
I stayed out of the rooms of recovery AANA purposely because
I thought everybody's going to know that.
I didn't want anybody to know mydeep, dark secret.
So I have a question for you. As a civil servant, you know,
being in the position that you were, were you solely getting
(10:58):
your drug of choice from a medical doctor or were you
seeking outside sources at that point?
I manipulated people to get it that are in the business.
They were putting themselves at risk, I guess, for me, and I was
putting myself in peril. The quantities I was using at
the end would kill an elephant. They would surely kill me today.
(11:21):
I had built up such a tolerance where I'm taking dozens of pills
a day and trying to keep that habit going.
And because this is an anonymouspodcast, people can't see you.
But for everyone that doesn't know what Glenn looks like, he
is a very, very tall, big man. Not big, round, big.
We're just talking very large presence, right?
(11:43):
So I can imagine that it took a lot to get you, get you going.
It can. Yeah.
I'll also. Yeah.
To get me to that same high thatI was chasing ever since that
first one. Yeah.
But somewhere in our literature says there's a jarring
experience that happens, and we're willing to surrender.
(12:04):
And listen, I was not raised to to surrender.
I was raised as a man. We don't walk away from fights.
I sometimes equate it to World War 2 where the Japanese were
going to be annihilated and theysurrendered.
And that I could get my head around if you're going to die,
you're beaten anyway and your only option is to surrender.
(12:25):
Let's give it up. And they said, you know, the the
union president that was at my house says, look, we have a bed
for you out East in rehab, like rehab.
I, I was so naive to this whole process that I thought rehab was
just where old people go when they break a hip.
I didn't know there was such a thing as alcohol drug rehab.
I didn't. And even in my career, I was
(12:47):
sort of on the periphery of thatkind of stuff, but I didn't
know. So I said, yeah, let's do it and
go. All right.
So I did. And I went to a rehab way out in
East, in the Hamptons, and I surrendered.
And I found I was there with people just like me that we're
leading a double life that had lost everything.
(13:09):
I would end up losing quite a bit at that time.
And I was willing to give up after I guess a medicated detox
I was starting at, my brain was starting to clear up.
I started to listen. And my roommate in that facility
said, all right, come on, you got to get out of bed.
You know, I was just vegging. I didn't feel good.
Withdrawals are punishing. You just feel like you're going
(13:31):
to die. And I said, where are we going?
He goes meeting time. We got to go what meeting?
And it was a meeting of Narcotics Anonymous that met in
the facility. It was, it was, you know, we now
have H and I, this was an H and I, this was a local group out
there in the Hamptons that chosemy facility as their weekly
(13:52):
meeting place. So in other words, like half the
people in the big room were inpatient there.
We couldn't leave, but they werecoming in and leaving willingly.
And I remember being impressed with them pulling up on
motorcycles. This was the summer of 2006, and
I started to realize, you know, all these ways I tried to stop
(14:14):
cold Turkey drug replacements. None of that stuff worked.
And these people were doing it just in a spiritual program
called Narcotics Anonymous. So in interfacing with other
addicts and, you know, people calling themselves addicts, was
that really when you felt like, oh, maybe I'm a part of this
(14:38):
club, right? Maybe I'm also an addict?
Or did you feel that you were anaddict prior to that?
Did you have language to expressthat or did you find that by
being in these recovery spaces? My my first thought is it was a
tremendous relief to meet peoplejust like me who were living
(14:58):
their lives and screwed it up really bad with drugs.
I thought nobody could possibly use the way I did.
This was my deep, dark secret. And if you knew I was a drug
addict back then and even to this day, there is a stigma
that's attached to using identifying yourself as a drug
addict. But I had a different impression
(15:21):
of what a drug addict look like.I thought it was the guy pushing
a shopping cart under the BQEI didn't know there were people
that hadn't hit that bottom thatwere also hopelessly addicted
like I was. So that was a big relief.
And I was willing to give this atry.
And I spent 28 days there. And we often suggest that
(15:43):
meetings make a meeting the night of the day you get out of
the facility and make it close to your house and make a meeting
a day for 90 days. Well, what was going on in my
life? You know where I thought I, I'm,
I'm too important. They're going to miss me for 28
days. Well, it turns out the employer
didn't want me back, but they made me a deal.
(16:04):
And it was, it was a quite generous offer on their part.
I retired from this career afterdoing 22 years.
You can retire in my career after 20.
So I had my time in my employer knew I was missing on a medical
leave for 28 days. They knew there was something
seriously wrong with me and theycouldn't take on the liability
(16:26):
of putting me back in the position that I was in.
And I agreed with that and I retired with all my benefits
intact. And that that was I, I look back
on that as a huge blessing. So I had nothing to do that
summer except make meetings, made lots of meetings, got to
meet people. I remember the good feeling I
(16:47):
had say I went to one meeting one week and went to the same
one. The following people were
remembering my name and they were remembering things like,
hey Glenn, good to see you again.
What do you have like 30-60 days?
That impressed me. They didn't have to say that.
They didn't have to make me feelwelcome, but they did.
(17:08):
And I found that I have, over the course of the last 19 years,
I've found some of the nicest, happiest, most well adjusted,
loving people that I've known inmy whole life in the rooms of
Narcotics Anonymous. It's amazing.
It's amazing what I was and whatI've become today.
So my life goes on. They, they asked me to take
(17:31):
commitments. And in NAA, commitment is just
like a little unpaid chore, a little job.
You do, you know. You make the coffee, you open
the meeting, you set up the chairs.
We call IT service. Service.
Thank you and until you do it you don't really know the value
of service. Sure NA can't run without
trusted servants, but I was getting something after feeling
(17:55):
like a piece of crap, letting everybody down, being
unemployed, it was slowly building my self esteem up like
I was finally doing something that's good for other people.
The selfishness that addiction fills your life with is replaced
by the selflessness of service that we give to the program and
(18:15):
to other people. Instead of just spending all of
our time prior to the meeting, we show up 20 minutes early to
set up the chairs and make sure that people have a place to sit
do the coffee. Yeah, I mean it says in the book
active drug addiction is self seeking, self-destructive and
certainly self-centered. And like Sophie just said that
(18:36):
it's this counters it by doing some good in NA.
And if you're a newcomer and you're listening to me right
now, I can't really describe thesense of good I started feeling
by getting involved in keeping the fellowship running and give
it a try. Give it a try.
I certainly met the best people in my life because of NA
(18:57):
service. We're all have that kind of
similar mindset that we put our recovery 1st and it's often said
anything we put in front of our recovery, we're going to lose
anyway. So I put my recovery first
because it has to come before mykids, my family, my career, and
(19:17):
also I'll just add, it was way back then I started to get a
concept by reading the steps that are on the wall of every
meeting. Get a get a concept of a higher
power and a Narcotics Anonymous.We only say that higher power a
lot of us call God, but all has to do is be loving, caring and
greater than yourself. That I could get my head around
(19:40):
this higher power helps me stay clean a day at a time by praying
to him, by talking to him. I look at my higher power as my
guy. He's always got my back.
I can always talk to him, ask him for help, and then some.
Some. Somehow I get answers.
Whether it's a person that's putin my life that I didn't realize
(20:00):
I needed or a concept of how to approach life, these thoughts
come into me or these strange coincidences.
That are beyond coincidence like.
Serendipity. Yeah, like somebody I just met,
her counselor was my best friendwhen I was a kid, and he's also
(20:22):
the guy that saved my life, got me the bed in the.
Just that I am so aware of thesethings now, and I look at them
as signals from my higher power that you're in the right place,
you're doing exactly what I would like you to do, and that's
my job now is to stay clean and serve others.
So we were so lucky to have you do our Just for today and
(20:45):
spiritual principle a day readings for your actual clean
date, which was one of those serendipitous, you know,
beautiful things that, you know,as I was editing the episodes
and I heard you say June 23rd, I'm like, he's going to do the
reading on his clean date. The same thing was for Chris.
And when I was first thinking about who do I want to have on
the podcast, Chris came up, you came up, Danny the girl came up
(21:10):
and it it just so happened that Chris, I placed him in those
readings. I knew when his clean date was,
but I didn't know when your clean date was.
And I just happened to place youto do that reading on your clean
date, which was such a blessing.Thank you, Sophie, and thank you
God. Yeah, that's another.
That's another one of those. Serendipitous, beautiful
coincidences, right That we talkabout.
Because God, my higher power, can't speak to me directly in a
(21:33):
voice that I can hear, but he knows I get signals, I get
signals. The Cardinals that are are
chirping in my backyard every morning, those my belief is that
they are my own loved ones that have passed.
They're checking in with me, just letting me know that
they're around. So my life was going on.
I was applying the program and Igot, I retired, I was employed
(21:56):
in a related field. I have been for the last 19
years doing some very exciting and interesting things.
And wherever my life takes me, Ifound there's Narcotics
Anonymous. I had to escort something over
to Hong Kong, which is a a very western city, but we went to a
suburb one night in Kowloon I found an English speaking
(22:17):
Narcotics Anonymous meeting or they may have made it English
because I can remember there wasa guy from California there too
and they said let's do it in English.
Tonight I had to investigate something in Paris, France and
found English speaking NarcoticsAnonymous meeting and I've spent
a lot of time on the West Coast.If you don't know, NA was
(22:38):
started by a guy named Jimmy Kennen in 1953 and he I'm kind
of an NA buff now where I've gotto see his house, the first
meeting place and I'm actually friends with some people that
knew him. A couple of friends of mine had
50 plus years clean. That's amazing.
And I get such a kick out of talking to people.
(22:58):
It's like degrees of separation.Oh, they actually knew him and
they're telling me about him. The reason why I bring it up is
NA to me is the solution to act of addiction.
We try medicine, psychiatry, religion and none of that works.
It's until you surrender and leta spiritual program take hold of
(23:20):
you and that's my experience, itworks.
Finally, I don't think about drugs as much anymore, but
that's not to say I've been clean since then.
In 2000 I guess. Going into 2001 my dad was
dying. He was 93 years old.
Never. I lost my grandparents but we
(23:40):
were tight. He was my hero.
Also COVID hit and you know the world as we knew it changed.
There were no in person NA meetings anymore and I'm even
with when I had time I was stillmaking a meeting a day
somewhere. I have all my favorite meetings.
Some days I go because I'm struggling.
(24:02):
Some days I'm going because I want to hang out with my
friends. My business suffered
tremendously at the beginning ofCOVID.
So I found myself in the backyard and the home I was
living in at a time had some people that were not in recovery
living there. They were having a barbecue and
I found myself in the gazebo where these spiked, I guess.
(24:27):
I guess they're spiked seltzer's.
It's like a fruity drink with some alcohol in it.
I also had a pretty substantial NA service commitment at the
time at the area level. Well, none of that really
mattered to me in that moment. It was the perfect storm.
(24:48):
Everything lined up. Glenn, you can escape just for a
little while, get a little relief, cry if you have to.
How much clean time did you haveat this point?
Nine years. You had nine years.
Yeah, and that was after not as not as significant, but I did
(25:09):
have one relapse and another rehab around 2011 and that was
on the pain pills again. So I and I can justify the most
outrageous sort of nonsense. We all can.
We're experts. Yes.
So somehow I I said, look, alcohol was never a problem for
you. Why don't you just drink one of
those? It'll make you feel better.
Just don't go back to the to thehard stuff.
(25:32):
You know the opiates that could kill you now?
We always say alcohol is a drug and a lot of people like you,
I'm sure, at that point didn't believe it.
Yeah, I I somehow thought I was the exception to that rule.
I was the only guy in NA that can drink.
Just a little. Bit just a little just to take
the edge off. And I did.
(25:53):
And it was, it was delicious. It was ice cold.
It was July. It felt great.
And I, I have one more and I didanother one and there was that
edge coming off that I was looking for relief, relief from
what was going on in my brain. I absolutely underestimated the
(26:14):
hold of alcohol because what happened was the next day woke
up my dad wasn't getting any better, business was still went
S couldn't see my NA friends in person.
Well I better do something againjust to not feel.
And there was. Another cold one.
And you know, it's funny, I, youknow, I look at alcohol as or
(26:38):
being drunk or being intoxicated.
It's not my go to feeling. It's really just not to feel the
high that I got from the opiate,narcotics, the drugs, the pills
was very different and I was fighting and I drank for the
next 4 years. I was fighting just to not go
back to that. You know, the alcohol at first
(26:58):
was effective in just not feeling anything.
And and then I started with the the accusations started my
family at home were starting to smell it on me, accuse me.
I go right to defense now. You're crazy.
I'm not. I'm not drinking.
I don't know. I'm tired.
Business is bad. Dad's dying.
(27:19):
Well, me drinking, first of all,didn't save my dad.
He did pass away in a nursing home.
That was hard. The economy didn't get better.
COVID went nowhere. And, and it wasn't until we were
out of COVID and I was at a a Yankee game again with a few of
my kids, I stepped and, and by then I had progressed.
(27:42):
And they always tell us disease progresses, whether it's a bag
of heroin to 10 a day, one pill to 30 a day.
For me, I was the guy driving around with a liter of vodka
behind my seat hidden that I wasjust, you know, mixing with
fruity drinks and drinking it all day long.
(28:02):
Well, I stepped out of my truck.I go straight down to the ground
and I wake up with paramedics standing over me.
They go, what have you been doing?
They they're testing me for my diabetes, my heart and
everything. And all these, I remember them
saying, Glenn, there's somethingseriously medically wrong with
you. We're taking you to Columbia
Presbyterian, best hospital in the city.
(28:24):
And I was in no position to say no.
And there I was told that the amount of alcohol I was drinking
per day was slowly causing organfailure.
Oh my goodness. That my liver, my kidneys were
shutting down. I was seriously dehydrated.
Levels of potassium and magnesium were like 0.
(28:45):
They they saved my life. I don't know if I would be
sitting here if that bottom didn't happen.
Like that bottom came up to grabme because I couldn't stop
drinking. So I'm the type of addict I keep
using until something bad happens.
And that was really bad. And our our 7th chapter about
(29:06):
recovery and relapse says relapse is sometimes the jarring
experience that leads to a more rigorous application of the
steps. That's where I was.
I spent five days in there and finally came back and came
clean. That because I wasn't telling
anybody, I was drinking. In fact, I never left NA.
I was still making Zoom meetings.
(29:26):
I was hanging on for dear life and I can remember those first
meetings I went back to because now the world was back to in
person stuff and saying hi, I'm Glenn.
I'm an addict. I have 10 days clean and I'm
kind of well known in the area Ilive in and make meetings in.
(29:47):
And I was so afraid of that moment.
I let, I felt like I let them down.
I let me down. I was lying about my clean day.
I also wasn't the first person to do that.
And I was met with such love. And then people coming up to me
after, you know, they were applauding, then they come after
me. Glenn, we knew there was
something wrong with you and we were so worried about you.
(30:09):
This is love. This is the love of the
Fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous, where we actually
care about each other. Well, it takes a lot to come
back. It takes a lot to admit, you
know that you that you messed up.
But like you said, you never stopped making meetings because
we never took your seat away, right?
Whether or not you were using orwhether or not you were clean,
(30:32):
you still had the same seat in the room because everyone just
has today, you know? And we say at our meetings all
the time, like if you're high, welcome, just keep coming.
And I'm glad that you never leftbecause I think that's what
helped you come back, even though you were using and you
said that you used while holdinga very prestigious position
(30:55):
within the fellowship. I would love to hear about that.
Well, in Narcotics Anonymous, wegive selfless service and each
of us has their own little talent.
Some people are great at making coffee.
I happen to be good at, you know, financial matters and
conducting meetings. And so over the about 8 years
(31:17):
prior, I'd sort of come up through the ranks to become the
chairperson of my area. And I was coming to the end of
my second term and that's when Istarted drinking.
So tell us a little bit about what the area level service
entails for people that are sortof sort of unfamiliar with that
(31:38):
structure. So NA is a worldwide fellowship
and it consists a lot more than just the meeting that meets in a
church basement. That meeting needs the support.
It needs somebody to print the literature, it needs to
translate our literature, and it's now in like 80 different
languages around the world. In other words, there is a
(32:00):
business part of Narcotics Anonymous and all those groups
are represented in an area with a monthly business meeting and
that area structure has a secretary, a treasurer, A
literature person, somebody thatruns hospitals and institutions,
a chair and a vice chair. So I had held all those
(32:22):
positions because I was really enjoying, I felt like I was
really giving back to NA just some things that I innately had,
you know, some skills and some some experience.
So I was serving, you know, I was pretty much a, the top I
could go in an A unless there's a service structure above area.
And when we say business, we don't mean the sort of
(32:42):
capitalistic business of like, you know, in the business of
making money. We mean formal matters that
really make the wheels turn right.
Yeah, 100%. You know, we, we make a
collection that supports these services that the World Service
of Narcotics Anonymous, some funds they need to get the job
(33:04):
done and all that money. We are a nonprofit organization.
There is no profit. And just to make sure that that
money is spent prudently and wisely.
Like providing books and the literature that we use to keep
our meetings going. Yeah, we might as well describe
(33:26):
it this way. The primary purpose of Narcotics
Anonymous is to carry the message to the addict who still
suffers. And we've all been there and
somebody handed us our first book and there was a meeting
open for us to go to. None of that happens by
accident. So at this area level and, and
then beyond that, there are regions and then there are
(33:47):
service service committees at the world level.
So I was, I was like moving along and I was happy that NA
was doing OK under not leadership, but under my
servitude in my area. And I didn't want anybody to
know. I wasn't ready to reveal that I
(34:08):
had been drinking. That I again, my first go to is
when I'm accused of something, Ideny, I deny, I make up excuses.
So what I did was I finished outthat term and then right after
that is when I hit my bottom anyway.
But I'm I'm ashamed of what I did.
These different positions of trust in a have clean time
(34:31):
requirements which I no longer met.
I should have come clean to the whole area and said what I had
done. But my ego, I have a tremendous
ego, prevented me from doing that.
I thought this was something I could get away with again and
again. I was minimizing it.
Oh, it's only alcohol. Well in NA it's very clear
(34:52):
alcohol is a drug. Well, actually when I first met
you, I think I had maybe seen you in a meeting or two prior
to, but we never really had a conversation.
But you and I had sat across thetable from each other doing
service trying to resurrect a meeting that had died because of
COVID. A lot of in person meetings died
because of COVID and went to Zoom.
So as we were sitting across from each other and talking
(35:13):
about service, you disclose thatto myself and to all the other
addicts at the table. And it was so powerful.
I mean, I respect the area levelso much, the regional level, the
world level. I respect it so much.
And to know that you went through that struggle and thank
God you came back and you're andyou're here telling me and our
(35:34):
listeners about this struggle. It's I applaud you for being
able to disclose that and to be able to say that it's hard to
feel like you've let anybody down.
But I think it's even more empowering to say, hey, I messed
up and I'm still here. I'm still battling for it.
Thank you for saying that and your sensitivity to it because
(35:56):
we find that in working the steps we are taught to be honest
in all our affairs and having been a liar and disingenuous and
concealing things, leading a double life, it feels good today
to not lie anymore, to not feel like I am worthless.
(36:18):
I'm a piece of garbage. No, but I've, I'm not.
I've made some mistakes. It doesn't define who I am.
And each day I try and do better.
I remember that night we were talking and I I don't broadcast
it when I qualify. I do at a meeting.
But it feels good. It's, it's, it's real.
It happened. I broke the rules and I learned
(36:41):
from it. And today I'm at peace with
myself. And that's the most important
piece I value. Well, I think all of us can
learn from it because really it shows that no matter how much
service or how high you get or what, everyone is vulnerable to
relapse. Everyone in this recovery
process in their own personal journey can pick up with however
(37:02):
many years clean they have at a time.
And it started with a backyard seltzer. 100% and I'm not the
first person with some time or was doing service to do what I
did. What scares the heck out of me
is relapse. Some people don't come back.
The things that are out on the street right now, and there's
this one that seems to be killing thousands of people a
(37:24):
year, is in the family of drugs.If I couldn't get my drug of
choice, I can see myself making a horrible decision using that
and not being here anymore. Look, I have, I have two
grandchildren. My life is OK right now.
It didn't have to be this good. I may not be exactly where I
want to be, but I feel like my higher power has my back and I'm
(37:48):
where I'm supposed to be and I have a lot more to contribute to
society to NA. I've been around a while and I'm
just getting back to the basics of I'm coming up on two years
clean. I feel like I'm moving past my
mistakes and I'm just trying to better myself by learning and
(38:08):
incorporating the the principles, spiritual principles
of Narcotics Anonymous into my life.
It's a great way to live. I often say I wish the whole
world had a program like this, even if it has nothing to do
with substance abuse or alcohol.It's a pretty good way to live
and to deal with people with some integrity and some honesty,
(38:30):
and it saved my life. Well, let me just say that this
episode will have debuted right around the time of your clean
date. So let me take this opportunity
to wish you a happy clean date and happy anniversary and say
that I'm very, very proud to have you on this podcast and to
celebrate that with you, with our listeners.
The last thing that I'd like to close on is what it felt like to
(38:53):
come back and how your recovery this time is different because I
think there are many people who just stayed, right?
And they don't have that unique experience that you have in
having gone back out and, and coming back, right?
People who got it the first timeand never went back out don't
have that perspective of having the seed planted and coming
(39:14):
back. So I would really love it if you
could share what that's like andwhat that was like for you to
come back and how you see recovery through a new lens
having gone back out. You know, one of the readings
that I read and it's our one of our go to books is called just
for today. And NA makes it stresses that
(39:35):
all each of us have is really just today.
Whoever woke up the earliest today has the most clean time.
So it's sometimes said that clean time doesn't equal
recovery. Yeah, there are people in in
these fellowships that have twenty, 30-40 years and are
still miserable with themselves.And there is a solution in the
(39:59):
step work of these fellowships. And I, I got over myself.
I needed to get over myself. Once I came clean and said I you
know, have very few days the thethe support and love I got
helped me cope with that where Ididn't want to admit and now I
(40:19):
now I feel like my purpose. Is to share it with others in
meetings on this podcast 'cause I know I'm not the only one that
has done these things. I know that I've never heard a
room get louder than when somebody announces that they'd
have days back. The room erupts.
It's just the cheering and the welcoming.
(40:40):
The love that you're reflecting is something that I've
experienced first hand. It's wonderful.
It's become it's instinctively now in me to cheer for the
newcomer with one a couple of days first meeting or an old
timer that's just coming back. Thank God you made it back.
We need you here. We need this experience that
helps save lives. I personally get so much from
(41:01):
newcomers when they say that they have days clean or when
they're actively using and they're they're struggling and
they're sharing their perspective.
It's so important for the newcomer to be able to have that
space, and I'm so glad that NA stresses that the newcomer is
the most important person. Absolutely, 100%.
You know, some of us say we needto hear the newcomer share
(41:22):
because we need to know for ourselves that it hasn't gotten
any better. It's not any better out there.
And then we just love them and love them and help them and
support them and take them out to eat, give them a book until
they learn to love themselves. It helps us so much as
recovering addicts who have justa little bit more clean time.
Connecting with the newcomer is probably one of the most
(41:43):
important things that I've personally done for my recovery.
Yes, yeah, yeah. Me taking a guy out for a burger
afterwards, I get so much more out of it because I know
somebody was there for me and put their hand out and help me
feel comfortable. Love on the newcomer, Remember
their names so you can welcome them back the next week.
It really is the primary purpose.
(42:04):
It's our collective primary purpose, right?
It's the 12th step. It's like, you know, bringing it
back to get to give it to somebody else.
To carry the message to the addict who still suffers.
Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Glenn,
for sharing your experience, forgiving us your really unique
perspective on what it was like to go back out and to be in the
(42:24):
position that you were in as a husband, as a father, as a civil
servant, as someone who we placetrust in in the NA fellowship
and for your honesty and for everything you've shared with us
today. It's been so moving to have you
here. And I'm just very, very grateful
to have had you. I'm.
Grateful to be here and to be alive, first and foremost.
(42:45):
Grateful to God for everything. And I'm grateful to friends like
you because you and I haven't known each other that long, but
boy, we have some, some deep conversations and, and you know,
our stories may be different, but the way we felt when we were
using, why we started and how wework, our recovery is very
similar. So there's strength in numbers,
(43:07):
I always say. And you're part of my tribe now.
I appreciate that. You're definitely one of the
leaders of my tribe, and I really appreciate you, Glenn,
Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Oh, that was great. And let me close with this.
Narcotics Anonymous is the solution to active addiction.
Give it a try. We'll give it a try.
(43:28):
The Voices of Recovery podcast is an independent production of
the works of Wisdom. We welcome your questions and
donations via PayPal at voicesofrecoverypod@gmail.com.
This podcast is an independent production and is not affiliated
with, associated with, authorized by, endorsed by, or
in any way officially connected with Narcotics Anonymous or any
(43:50):
of its subsidiaries or affiliates.
While any literature may be readduring episodes for the purpose
of supporting recovery, such usedoes not constitute an official
endorsement or representation byNarcotics Anonymous.
In accordance with any tradition, The NA name is not to
be used to endorse or be affiliated with any outside
enterprise, and no such endorsement or affiliation is
(44:10):
implied. Music is by Sage.
Thanks for listening to the Voices of Recovery podcast.
You're listening to the Voices of Recovery podcast.
This is a special episode featuring a recovering addict.
Hi, my name is Sophie X. I'm the host and producer of the
(00:27):
Voices of Recovery podcast. I'm joined here today by Glenn.
Hi, Glenn. Thanks so much for being here.
Thanks Sophie, great to be here.Thank you so much for doing our
Just for Today and It's Bad readings.
You're quite welcome, I enjoyed.It you have a wonderful,
wonderful radio announcer voice,so I couldn't have picked a
better person. It's a it's a lost dream that's
awakening right now for me. Yeah, you know, Danny spoke
(00:50):
about lost streams awaken, new possibilities arise.
I think that's how she said it. You know, I'm really happy to
have you here and thank you so much for being one of my first
guests on the Return to RecoveryAfter Relapse series of the
Voices of Recovery podcast. It's it's an honor and I, I hope
somebody that hears your podcastidentifies and makes the
decision to get into recovery. Absolutely, yeah.
(01:12):
Or stay, right, because for a lot of us, it's, you know, the
struggle is staying. Absolutely.
So I, I would love for you to, you know, introduce yourself
just a little bit, tell me abouthow you came to recovery and you
also have relapse in your story,right?
I do. Yeah.
So I would love to hear about your past, what got you into
(01:32):
recovery, how you went out and how you came back in and how
you've stayed this time around. Thanks.
I, I, I would love to share thatwith you.
So my name is Glenn. I grew up right here on the
South Shore of the Long Island, a pretty typical upbringing with
a loving family. My parents are actually
immigrants to the United States.They came over from Europe after
(01:56):
World War 2 and started buildinga life and the American dream.
And they had my sister and then they had me.
And I feel like my sister and I grew up with every advantage.
You know, sometimes when we cometo the rooms, we hear stories
about trauma and abuse and mistreatment, maltreatment.
(02:20):
That's not my story. And the longer I stay in
Narcotics Anonymous, the more I hear stories that sound a little
bit like mine. But the the feelings are all the
same. And you know, there's a saying
from Park Ave. to the park benchthat in my own way, yeah, that
(02:40):
that applies to me. I, I started hanging out with my
friends in mostly high school. And I'll say I never picked up a
drug till much later on. But we drank, we drank beer on
the weekends. We we'd pay somebody to go into
711 and buy a case of beer for us.
(03:01):
And we would make sure we would drink that whole thing that
night. In fact, I looking back, I feel
like I was a little competitive where we were all getting drunk.
I wanted to beat them and I got hammered.
And, and that went on through mycollege years.
And I'd say about 15, you know, with the, the alcohol.
(03:25):
And you know, this, they say this disease we have of
addiction is cunning, baffling and insidious.
So from drinking, nothing bad ever happened.
Sure, I had a hangover here and there.
Maybe, maybe my mom and dad weremad at us for having a, a New
Year's Eve party that got out ofhand, but I never had a
(03:46):
consequence from just drinking. So somehow I thought it was
normal. It's what everybody does.
I was definitely doing it just to fit in and have friends.
And my life goes on and I, I start in a career.
It was a position of trust in the community and it was
something I wanted to do becauseit was exciting.
(04:06):
It was a civil service position.But I, I went on and, and you
know, started building a life, got married, had some kids.
And I was actually helping a Co worker move one day and I was
carrying a mattress on my head, not too smart.
(04:26):
And I felt something snap in my neck and my shoulder and one of
the other guys that I worked with said, oh, wow, you're
hurting. Here's I have an idea.
Go up to my doctor up there in the next town over and he'll
give you something that'll make you feel a lot better.
Now mind you, this was the late 1990s and painkillers were
(04:49):
prescribed pretty freely, not ascontrolled as a controlled
substance you would think it would be.
Nowadays it's very difficult fordoctors to write prescriptions
for opiate pain medicine. So I'll admit I was naive and I
went there, was examined, walkedout with a script for Vicodin,
(05:10):
which was a popular painkiller back then.
Being naive or just compliant orwhatever, I always followed the
directions on the label of whatever I was prescribed.
And this is my first experience,though, with a painkiller.
So I took so take one every fourto six hours for pain.
And I did and didn't really feelthat great.
(05:32):
I mean, I still was in a lot of pain.
Next day I see the same guy thatreferred me to his doctor.
He says, So how you feeling? I said, still a lot of pain, Bob
still hurts. Well, what'd you do?
I said. I took as direct one every four
to six for pain. He goes no, no, no, no, no, no.
(05:53):
Start by taking four and then let me know how you feel.
Oh. My.
Goodness. Being driven by physical pain,
wanting to just feel good. Trusted the guy, went home and
did that and within a few minutes I felt it kicking in and
I felt something I had never felt before my whole life.
(06:13):
It was a euphoria. It made all the physical pain go
away too, which was fantastic. But mentally I felt fantastic.
I felt like if I ever suffered, I probably did from like
borderline anxiety, depression when I was younger.
All that was gone too. I had like a new energy to get
(06:36):
things done. I felt like I was much more
conversational and likable. And I can remember at that time
making a conscious decision thatthis must be a chemical that's
been missing in my brain my whole life.
So you felt it chemically alter your brain is what you're
saying? Yes, absolutely.
(06:57):
I mean, I'm smart enough to knowthat there's chemicals and it's
attacking and blocking a pain. I didn't know what the high of a
narcotic drug was until that moment in my life.
And I was in my late 20s, so I got started, older than many
others in my position, and I sawnothing wrong with it.
They were being written by a medical doctor with a diploma on
(07:21):
the wall. He wouldn't do anything to hurt
me. So that went on and I found that
the the same to get the same release relief from the pain and
that same high that I was reallystarting to like I had to take
more, you know, the four a day wasn't doing it anymore and that
(07:41):
those quantities increased quitea bit.
And just to make a Long story short, that turns into about a
10 year nightmare. I, I couldn't stop.
I, I, the, I didn't have much trouble getting the pills.
I had trouble stopping. And I can remember the fear that
(08:02):
said, and the uncomfortableness on a Sunday night having run
out, knowing that I'm going to feel like death in a little
while. And those are called
withdrawals. I educated myself on this.
The Internet was new back then and I was looking for quick
remedies to get off these things.
Nothing worked. Nothing worked.
(08:24):
And then it was 2006 that I hit my first bottom.
I was driving and, and drinking.Now, you know, I was also mixing
up, you know, drinking on these things.
I underestimated alcohol, but I,I crashed a, a vehicle that was
not mine. It was my company vehicle.
(08:44):
I crashed it into a tree right in front of my house and oh boy,
now I was like, now I'm in trouble and what?
I while you're under the influence.
Absolutely, as a civil servant. As a civil servant.
Yeah, And I'd somehow made it home from the Bronx, a Yankee
game. Yankees are one of my passions.
And, you know, I remember going to try.
(09:05):
I I I have to cover this up. I have to hide this.
Nobody can find out about this. And I went to a collision place,
paid somebody cash just to get it done because and, and I find
out later that my Co workers, myemployer, my family had been
watching me for quite a while. I was late for everything.
(09:26):
I would disappear. I'll tell you, being a drug
addict 24/7 became my full time job.
I was putting it ahead of my family.
I was putting it ahead of my career.
I was at the top of my game then, right?
You couldn't go much higher thanwhere I was in this
organization, but it doesn't discriminate the disease.
And I was in serious trouble. And because of that incident, I
(09:51):
was suspended. My employer came to my door,
took my credentials, took the car keys.
But the next person at my door was a blessing, and that was my
union president. And he says to me, you know,
we've been watching you for a while, Glenn, you need help.
We don't know what's wrong with you, but we know you're not
(10:11):
yourself anymore. You haven't been in a long time.
You're nodding out. You're not showing up for
things. You're disheveled.
And that's when I, and I later learned the word is surrender.
I had tried everything else and nothing worked.
I can remember going from, you know, mental health social
(10:34):
worker lied to them about being an addict.
I stayed out of the rooms of recovery AANA purposely because
I thought everybody's going to know that.
I didn't want anybody to know mydeep, dark secret.
So I have a question for you. As a civil servant, you know,
being in the position that you were, were you solely getting
(10:58):
your drug of choice from a medical doctor or were you
seeking outside sources at that point?
I manipulated people to get it that are in the business.
They were putting themselves at risk, I guess, for me, and I was
putting myself in peril. The quantities I was using at
the end would kill an elephant. They would surely kill me today.
(11:21):
I had built up such a tolerance where I'm taking dozens of pills
a day and trying to keep that habit going.
And because this is an anonymouspodcast, people can't see you.
But for everyone that doesn't know what Glenn looks like, he
is a very, very tall, big man. Not big, round, big.
We're just talking very large presence, right?
(11:43):
So I can imagine that it took a lot to get you, get you going.
It can. Yeah.
I'll also. Yeah.
To get me to that same high thatI was chasing ever since that
first one. Yeah.
But somewhere in our literature says there's a jarring
experience that happens, and we're willing to surrender.
(12:04):
And listen, I was not raised to to surrender.
I was raised as a man. We don't walk away from fights.
I sometimes equate it to World War 2 where the Japanese were
going to be annihilated and theysurrendered.
And that I could get my head around if you're going to die,
you're beaten anyway and your only option is to surrender.
(12:25):
Let's give it up. And they said, you know, the the
union president that was at my house says, look, we have a bed
for you out East in rehab, like rehab.
I, I was so naive to this whole process that I thought rehab was
just where old people go when they break a hip.
I didn't know there was such a thing as alcohol drug rehab.
I didn't. And even in my career, I was
(12:47):
sort of on the periphery of thatkind of stuff, but I didn't
know. So I said, yeah, let's do it and
go. All right.
So I did. And I went to a rehab way out in
East, in the Hamptons, and I surrendered.
And I found I was there with people just like me that we're
leading a double life that had lost everything.
(13:09):
I would end up losing quite a bit at that time.
And I was willing to give up after I guess a medicated detox
I was starting at, my brain was starting to clear up.
I started to listen. And my roommate in that facility
said, all right, come on, you got to get out of bed.
You know, I was just vegging. I didn't feel good.
Withdrawals are punishing. You just feel like you're going
(13:31):
to die. And I said, where are we going?
He goes meeting time. We got to go what meeting?
And it was a meeting of Narcotics Anonymous that met in
the facility. It was, it was, you know, we now
have H and I, this was an H and I, this was a local group out
there in the Hamptons that chosemy facility as their weekly
(13:52):
meeting place. So in other words, like half the
people in the big room were inpatient there.
We couldn't leave, but they werecoming in and leaving willingly.
And I remember being impressed with them pulling up on
motorcycles. This was the summer of 2006, and
I started to realize, you know, all these ways I tried to stop
(14:14):
cold Turkey drug replacements. None of that stuff worked.
And these people were doing it just in a spiritual program
called Narcotics Anonymous. So in interfacing with other
addicts and, you know, people calling themselves addicts, was
that really when you felt like, oh, maybe I'm a part of this
(14:38):
club, right? Maybe I'm also an addict?
Or did you feel that you were anaddict prior to that?
Did you have language to expressthat or did you find that by
being in these recovery spaces? My my first thought is it was a
tremendous relief to meet peoplejust like me who were living
(14:58):
their lives and screwed it up really bad with drugs.
I thought nobody could possibly use the way I did.
This was my deep, dark secret. And if you knew I was a drug
addict back then and even to this day, there is a stigma
that's attached to using identifying yourself as a drug
addict. But I had a different impression
(15:21):
of what a drug addict look like.I thought it was the guy pushing
a shopping cart under the BQEI didn't know there were people
that hadn't hit that bottom thatwere also hopelessly addicted
like I was. So that was a big relief.
And I was willing to give this atry.
And I spent 28 days there. And we often suggest that
(15:43):
meetings make a meeting the night of the day you get out of
the facility and make it close to your house and make a meeting
a day for 90 days. Well, what was going on in my
life? You know where I thought I, I'm,
I'm too important. They're going to miss me for 28
days. Well, it turns out the employer
didn't want me back, but they made me a deal.
(16:04):
And it was, it was a quite generous offer on their part.
I retired from this career afterdoing 22 years.
You can retire in my career after 20.
So I had my time in my employer knew I was missing on a medical
leave for 28 days. They knew there was something
seriously wrong with me and theycouldn't take on the liability
(16:26):
of putting me back in the position that I was in.
And I agreed with that and I retired with all my benefits
intact. And that that was I, I look back
on that as a huge blessing. So I had nothing to do that
summer except make meetings, made lots of meetings, got to
meet people. I remember the good feeling I
(16:47):
had say I went to one meeting one week and went to the same
one. The following people were
remembering my name and they were remembering things like,
hey Glenn, good to see you again.
What do you have like 30-60 days?
That impressed me. They didn't have to say that.
They didn't have to make me feelwelcome, but they did.
(17:08):
And I found that I have, over the course of the last 19 years,
I've found some of the nicest, happiest, most well adjusted,
loving people that I've known inmy whole life in the rooms of
Narcotics Anonymous. It's amazing.
It's amazing what I was and whatI've become today.
So my life goes on. They, they asked me to take
(17:31):
commitments. And in NAA, commitment is just
like a little unpaid chore, a little job.
You do, you know. You make the coffee, you open
the meeting, you set up the chairs.
We call IT service. Service.
Thank you and until you do it you don't really know the value
of service. Sure NA can't run without
trusted servants, but I was getting something after feeling
(17:55):
like a piece of crap, letting everybody down, being
unemployed, it was slowly building my self esteem up like
I was finally doing something that's good for other people.
The selfishness that addiction fills your life with is replaced
by the selflessness of service that we give to the program and
(18:15):
to other people. Instead of just spending all of
our time prior to the meeting, we show up 20 minutes early to
set up the chairs and make sure that people have a place to sit
do the coffee. Yeah, I mean it says in the book
active drug addiction is self seeking, self-destructive and
certainly self-centered. And like Sophie just said that
(18:36):
it's this counters it by doing some good in NA.
And if you're a newcomer and you're listening to me right
now, I can't really describe thesense of good I started feeling
by getting involved in keeping the fellowship running and give
it a try. Give it a try.
I certainly met the best people in my life because of NA
(18:57):
service. We're all have that kind of
similar mindset that we put our recovery 1st and it's often said
anything we put in front of our recovery, we're going to lose
anyway. So I put my recovery first
because it has to come before mykids, my family, my career, and
(19:17):
also I'll just add, it was way back then I started to get a
concept by reading the steps that are on the wall of every
meeting. Get a get a concept of a higher
power and a Narcotics Anonymous.We only say that higher power a
lot of us call God, but all has to do is be loving, caring and
greater than yourself. That I could get my head around
(19:40):
this higher power helps me stay clean a day at a time by praying
to him, by talking to him. I look at my higher power as my
guy. He's always got my back.
I can always talk to him, ask him for help, and then some.
Some. Somehow I get answers.
Whether it's a person that's putin my life that I didn't realize
(20:00):
I needed or a concept of how to approach life, these thoughts
come into me or these strange coincidences.
That are beyond coincidence like.
Serendipity. Yeah, like somebody I just met,
her counselor was my best friendwhen I was a kid, and he's also
(20:22):
the guy that saved my life, got me the bed in the.
Just that I am so aware of thesethings now, and I look at them
as signals from my higher power that you're in the right place,
you're doing exactly what I would like you to do, and that's
my job now is to stay clean and serve others.
So we were so lucky to have you do our Just for today and
(20:45):
spiritual principle a day readings for your actual clean
date, which was one of those serendipitous, you know,
beautiful things that, you know,as I was editing the episodes
and I heard you say June 23rd, I'm like, he's going to do the
reading on his clean date. The same thing was for Chris.
And when I was first thinking about who do I want to have on
the podcast, Chris came up, you came up, Danny the girl came up
(21:10):
and it it just so happened that Chris, I placed him in those
readings. I knew when his clean date was,
but I didn't know when your clean date was.
And I just happened to place youto do that reading on your clean
date, which was such a blessing.Thank you, Sophie, and thank you
God. Yeah, that's another.
That's another one of those. Serendipitous, beautiful
coincidences, right That we talkabout.
Because God, my higher power, can't speak to me directly in a
(21:33):
voice that I can hear, but he knows I get signals, I get
signals. The Cardinals that are are
chirping in my backyard every morning, those my belief is that
they are my own loved ones that have passed.
They're checking in with me, just letting me know that
they're around. So my life was going on.
I was applying the program and Igot, I retired, I was employed
(21:56):
in a related field. I have been for the last 19
years doing some very exciting and interesting things.
And wherever my life takes me, Ifound there's Narcotics
Anonymous. I had to escort something over
to Hong Kong, which is a a very western city, but we went to a
suburb one night in Kowloon I found an English speaking
(22:17):
Narcotics Anonymous meeting or they may have made it English
because I can remember there wasa guy from California there too
and they said let's do it in English.
Tonight I had to investigate something in Paris, France and
found English speaking NarcoticsAnonymous meeting and I've spent
a lot of time on the West Coast.If you don't know, NA was
(22:38):
started by a guy named Jimmy Kennen in 1953 and he I'm kind
of an NA buff now where I've gotto see his house, the first
meeting place and I'm actually friends with some people that
knew him. A couple of friends of mine had
50 plus years clean. That's amazing.
And I get such a kick out of talking to people.
(22:58):
It's like degrees of separation.Oh, they actually knew him and
they're telling me about him. The reason why I bring it up is
NA to me is the solution to act of addiction.
We try medicine, psychiatry, religion and none of that works.
It's until you surrender and leta spiritual program take hold of
(23:20):
you and that's my experience, itworks.
Finally, I don't think about drugs as much anymore, but
that's not to say I've been clean since then.
In 2000 I guess. Going into 2001 my dad was
dying. He was 93 years old.
Never. I lost my grandparents but we
(23:40):
were tight. He was my hero.
Also COVID hit and you know the world as we knew it changed.
There were no in person NA meetings anymore and I'm even
with when I had time I was stillmaking a meeting a day
somewhere. I have all my favorite meetings.
Some days I go because I'm struggling.
(24:02):
Some days I'm going because I want to hang out with my
friends. My business suffered
tremendously at the beginning ofCOVID.
So I found myself in the backyard and the home I was
living in at a time had some people that were not in recovery
living there. They were having a barbecue and
I found myself in the gazebo where these spiked, I guess.
(24:27):
I guess they're spiked seltzer's.
It's like a fruity drink with some alcohol in it.
I also had a pretty substantial NA service commitment at the
time at the area level. Well, none of that really
mattered to me in that moment. It was the perfect storm.
(24:48):
Everything lined up. Glenn, you can escape just for a
little while, get a little relief, cry if you have to.
How much clean time did you haveat this point?
Nine years. You had nine years.
Yeah, and that was after not as not as significant, but I did
(25:09):
have one relapse and another rehab around 2011 and that was
on the pain pills again. So I and I can justify the most
outrageous sort of nonsense. We all can.
We're experts. Yes.
So somehow I I said, look, alcohol was never a problem for
you. Why don't you just drink one of
those? It'll make you feel better.
Just don't go back to the to thehard stuff.
(25:32):
You know the opiates that could kill you now?
We always say alcohol is a drug and a lot of people like you,
I'm sure, at that point didn't believe it.
Yeah, I I somehow thought I was the exception to that rule.
I was the only guy in NA that can drink.
Just a little. Bit just a little just to take
the edge off. And I did.
(25:53):
And it was, it was delicious. It was ice cold.
It was July. It felt great.
And I, I have one more and I didanother one and there was that
edge coming off that I was looking for relief, relief from
what was going on in my brain. I absolutely underestimated the
(26:14):
hold of alcohol because what happened was the next day woke
up my dad wasn't getting any better, business was still went
S couldn't see my NA friends in person.
Well I better do something againjust to not feel.
And there was. Another cold one.
And you know, it's funny, I, youknow, I look at alcohol as or
(26:38):
being drunk or being intoxicated.
It's not my go to feeling. It's really just not to feel the
high that I got from the opiate,narcotics, the drugs, the pills
was very different and I was fighting and I drank for the
next 4 years. I was fighting just to not go
back to that. You know, the alcohol at first
(26:58):
was effective in just not feeling anything.
And and then I started with the the accusations started my
family at home were starting to smell it on me, accuse me.
I go right to defense now. You're crazy.
I'm not. I'm not drinking.
I don't know. I'm tired.
Business is bad. Dad's dying.
(27:19):
Well, me drinking, first of all,didn't save my dad.
He did pass away in a nursing home.
That was hard. The economy didn't get better.
COVID went nowhere. And, and it wasn't until we were
out of COVID and I was at a a Yankee game again with a few of
my kids, I stepped and, and by then I had progressed.
(27:42):
And they always tell us disease progresses, whether it's a bag
of heroin to 10 a day, one pill to 30 a day.
For me, I was the guy driving around with a liter of vodka
behind my seat hidden that I wasjust, you know, mixing with
fruity drinks and drinking it all day long.
(28:02):
Well, I stepped out of my truck.I go straight down to the ground
and I wake up with paramedics standing over me.
They go, what have you been doing?
They they're testing me for my diabetes, my heart and
everything. And all these, I remember them
saying, Glenn, there's somethingseriously medically wrong with
you. We're taking you to Columbia
Presbyterian, best hospital in the city.
(28:24):
And I was in no position to say no.
And there I was told that the amount of alcohol I was drinking
per day was slowly causing organfailure.
Oh my goodness. That my liver, my kidneys were
shutting down. I was seriously dehydrated.
Levels of potassium and magnesium were like 0.
(28:45):
They they saved my life. I don't know if I would be
sitting here if that bottom didn't happen.
Like that bottom came up to grabme because I couldn't stop
drinking. So I'm the type of addict I keep
using until something bad happens.
And that was really bad. And our our 7th chapter about
(29:06):
recovery and relapse says relapse is sometimes the jarring
experience that leads to a more rigorous application of the
steps. That's where I was.
I spent five days in there and finally came back and came
clean. That because I wasn't telling
anybody, I was drinking. In fact, I never left NA.
I was still making Zoom meetings.
(29:26):
I was hanging on for dear life and I can remember those first
meetings I went back to because now the world was back to in
person stuff and saying hi, I'm Glenn.
I'm an addict. I have 10 days clean and I'm
kind of well known in the area Ilive in and make meetings in.
(29:47):
And I was so afraid of that moment.
I let, I felt like I let them down.
I let me down. I was lying about my clean day.
I also wasn't the first person to do that.
And I was met with such love. And then people coming up to me
after, you know, they were applauding, then they come after
me. Glenn, we knew there was
something wrong with you and we were so worried about you.
(30:09):
This is love. This is the love of the
Fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous, where we actually
care about each other. Well, it takes a lot to come
back. It takes a lot to admit, you
know that you that you messed up.
But like you said, you never stopped making meetings because
we never took your seat away, right?
Whether or not you were using orwhether or not you were clean,
(30:32):
you still had the same seat in the room because everyone just
has today, you know? And we say at our meetings all
the time, like if you're high, welcome, just keep coming.
And I'm glad that you never leftbecause I think that's what
helped you come back, even though you were using and you
said that you used while holdinga very prestigious position
(30:55):
within the fellowship. I would love to hear about that.
Well, in Narcotics Anonymous, wegive selfless service and each
of us has their own little talent.
Some people are great at making coffee.
I happen to be good at, you know, financial matters and
conducting meetings. And so over the about 8 years
(31:17):
prior, I'd sort of come up through the ranks to become the
chairperson of my area. And I was coming to the end of
my second term and that's when Istarted drinking.
So tell us a little bit about what the area level service
entails for people that are sortof sort of unfamiliar with that
(31:38):
structure. So NA is a worldwide fellowship
and it consists a lot more than just the meeting that meets in a
church basement. That meeting needs the support.
It needs somebody to print the literature, it needs to
translate our literature, and it's now in like 80 different
languages around the world. In other words, there is a
(32:00):
business part of Narcotics Anonymous and all those groups
are represented in an area with a monthly business meeting and
that area structure has a secretary, a treasurer, A
literature person, somebody thatruns hospitals and institutions,
a chair and a vice chair. So I had held all those
(32:22):
positions because I was really enjoying, I felt like I was
really giving back to NA just some things that I innately had,
you know, some skills and some some experience.
So I was serving, you know, I was pretty much a, the top I
could go in an A unless there's a service structure above area.
And when we say business, we don't mean the sort of
(32:42):
capitalistic business of like, you know, in the business of
making money. We mean formal matters that
really make the wheels turn right.
Yeah, 100%. You know, we, we make a
collection that supports these services that the World Service
of Narcotics Anonymous, some funds they need to get the job
(33:04):
done and all that money. We are a nonprofit organization.
There is no profit. And just to make sure that that
money is spent prudently and wisely.
Like providing books and the literature that we use to keep
our meetings going. Yeah, we might as well describe
(33:26):
it this way. The primary purpose of Narcotics
Anonymous is to carry the message to the addict who still
suffers. And we've all been there and
somebody handed us our first book and there was a meeting
open for us to go to. None of that happens by
accident. So at this area level and, and
then beyond that, there are regions and then there are
(33:47):
service service committees at the world level.
So I was, I was like moving along and I was happy that NA
was doing OK under not leadership, but under my
servitude in my area. And I didn't want anybody to
know. I wasn't ready to reveal that I
(34:08):
had been drinking. That I again, my first go to is
when I'm accused of something, Ideny, I deny, I make up excuses.
So what I did was I finished outthat term and then right after
that is when I hit my bottom anyway.
But I'm I'm ashamed of what I did.
These different positions of trust in a have clean time
(34:31):
requirements which I no longer met.
I should have come clean to the whole area and said what I had
done. But my ego, I have a tremendous
ego, prevented me from doing that.
I thought this was something I could get away with again and
again. I was minimizing it.
Oh, it's only alcohol. Well in NA it's very clear
(34:52):
alcohol is a drug. Well, actually when I first met
you, I think I had maybe seen you in a meeting or two prior
to, but we never really had a conversation.
But you and I had sat across thetable from each other doing
service trying to resurrect a meeting that had died because of
COVID. A lot of in person meetings died
because of COVID and went to Zoom.
So as we were sitting across from each other and talking
(35:13):
about service, you disclose thatto myself and to all the other
addicts at the table. And it was so powerful.
I mean, I respect the area levelso much, the regional level, the
world level. I respect it so much.
And to know that you went through that struggle and thank
God you came back and you're andyou're here telling me and our
(35:34):
listeners about this struggle. It's I applaud you for being
able to disclose that and to be able to say that it's hard to
feel like you've let anybody down.
But I think it's even more empowering to say, hey, I messed
up and I'm still here. I'm still battling for it.
Thank you for saying that and your sensitivity to it because
(35:56):
we find that in working the steps we are taught to be honest
in all our affairs and having been a liar and disingenuous and
concealing things, leading a double life, it feels good today
to not lie anymore, to not feel like I am worthless.
(36:18):
I'm a piece of garbage. No, but I've, I'm not.
I've made some mistakes. It doesn't define who I am.
And each day I try and do better.
I remember that night we were talking and I I don't broadcast
it when I qualify. I do at a meeting.
But it feels good. It's, it's, it's real.
It happened. I broke the rules and I learned
(36:41):
from it. And today I'm at peace with
myself. And that's the most important
piece I value. Well, I think all of us can
learn from it because really it shows that no matter how much
service or how high you get or what, everyone is vulnerable to
relapse. Everyone in this recovery
process in their own personal journey can pick up with however
(37:02):
many years clean they have at a time.
And it started with a backyard seltzer. 100% and I'm not the
first person with some time or was doing service to do what I
did. What scares the heck out of me
is relapse. Some people don't come back.
The things that are out on the street right now, and there's
this one that seems to be killing thousands of people a
(37:24):
year, is in the family of drugs.If I couldn't get my drug of
choice, I can see myself making a horrible decision using that
and not being here anymore. Look, I have, I have two
grandchildren. My life is OK right now.
It didn't have to be this good. I may not be exactly where I
want to be, but I feel like my higher power has my back and I'm
(37:48):
where I'm supposed to be and I have a lot more to contribute to
society to NA. I've been around a while and I'm
just getting back to the basics of I'm coming up on two years
clean. I feel like I'm moving past my
mistakes and I'm just trying to better myself by learning and
(38:08):
incorporating the the principles, spiritual principles
of Narcotics Anonymous into my life.
It's a great way to live. I often say I wish the whole
world had a program like this, even if it has nothing to do
with substance abuse or alcohol.It's a pretty good way to live
and to deal with people with some integrity and some honesty,
(38:30):
and it saved my life. Well, let me just say that this
episode will have debuted right around the time of your clean
date. So let me take this opportunity
to wish you a happy clean date and happy anniversary and say
that I'm very, very proud to have you on this podcast and to
celebrate that with you, with our listeners.
The last thing that I'd like to close on is what it felt like to
(38:53):
come back and how your recovery this time is different because I
think there are many people who just stayed, right?
And they don't have that unique experience that you have in
having gone back out and, and coming back, right?
People who got it the first timeand never went back out don't
have that perspective of having the seed planted and coming
(39:14):
back. So I would really love it if you
could share what that's like andwhat that was like for you to
come back and how you see recovery through a new lens
having gone back out. You know, one of the readings
that I read and it's our one of our go to books is called just
for today. And NA makes it stresses that
(39:35):
all each of us have is really just today.
Whoever woke up the earliest today has the most clean time.
So it's sometimes said that clean time doesn't equal
recovery. Yeah, there are people in in
these fellowships that have twenty, 30-40 years and are
still miserable with themselves.And there is a solution in the
(39:59):
step work of these fellowships. And I, I got over myself.
I needed to get over myself. Once I came clean and said I you
know, have very few days the thethe support and love I got
helped me cope with that where Ididn't want to admit and now I
(40:19):
now I feel like my purpose. Is to share it with others in
meetings on this podcast 'cause I know I'm not the only one that
has done these things. I know that I've never heard a
room get louder than when somebody announces that they'd
have days back. The room erupts.
It's just the cheering and the welcoming.
(40:40):
The love that you're reflecting is something that I've
experienced first hand. It's wonderful.
It's become it's instinctively now in me to cheer for the
newcomer with one a couple of days first meeting or an old
timer that's just coming back. Thank God you made it back.
We need you here. We need this experience that
helps save lives. I personally get so much from
(41:01):
newcomers when they say that they have days clean or when
they're actively using and they're they're struggling and
they're sharing their perspective.
It's so important for the newcomer to be able to have that
space, and I'm so glad that NA stresses that the newcomer is
the most important person. Absolutely, 100%.
You know, some of us say we needto hear the newcomer share
(41:22):
because we need to know for ourselves that it hasn't gotten
any better. It's not any better out there.
And then we just love them and love them and help them and
support them and take them out to eat, give them a book until
they learn to love themselves. It helps us so much as
recovering addicts who have justa little bit more clean time.
Connecting with the newcomer is probably one of the most
(41:43):
important things that I've personally done for my recovery.
Yes, yeah, yeah. Me taking a guy out for a burger
afterwards, I get so much more out of it because I know
somebody was there for me and put their hand out and help me
feel comfortable. Love on the newcomer, Remember
their names so you can welcome them back the next week.
It really is the primary purpose.
(42:04):
It's our collective primary purpose, right?
It's the 12th step. It's like, you know, bringing it
back to get to give it to somebody else.
To carry the message to the addict who still suffers.
Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Glenn,
for sharing your experience, forgiving us your really unique
perspective on what it was like to go back out and to be in the
(42:24):
position that you were in as a husband, as a father, as a civil
servant, as someone who we placetrust in in the NA fellowship
and for your honesty and for everything you've shared with us
today. It's been so moving to have you
here. And I'm just very, very grateful
to have had you. I'm.
Grateful to be here and to be alive, first and foremost.
(42:45):
Grateful to God for everything. And I'm grateful to friends like
you because you and I haven't known each other that long, but
boy, we have some, some deep conversations and, and you know,
our stories may be different, but the way we felt when we were
using, why we started and how wework, our recovery is very
similar. So there's strength in numbers,
(43:07):
I always say. And you're part of my tribe now.
I appreciate that. You're definitely one of the
leaders of my tribe, and I really appreciate you, Glenn,
Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Oh, that was great. And let me close with this.
Narcotics Anonymous is the solution to active addiction.
Give it a try. We'll give it a try.
(43:28):
The Voices of Recovery podcast is an independent production of
the works of Wisdom. We welcome your questions and
donations via PayPal at voicesofrecoverypod@gmail.com.
This podcast is an independent production and is not affiliated
with, associated with, authorized by, endorsed by, or
in any way officially connected with Narcotics Anonymous or any
(43:50):
of its subsidiaries or affiliates.
While any literature may be readduring episodes for the purpose
of supporting recovery, such usedoes not constitute an official
endorsement or representation byNarcotics Anonymous.
In accordance with any tradition, The NA name is not to
be used to endorse or be affiliated with any outside
enterprise, and no such endorsement or affiliation is
(44:10):
implied. Music is by Sage.
Thanks for listening to the Voices of Recovery podcast.
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