March 15, 2025 • 31 mins
The broadcast industry stands at a technological crossroads, with traditional satellite-based workflows gradually giving way to IP-native cloud solutions. In this illuminating conversation, Net Insight's Adam Nilsson and Pierre Le Fevre join Mark Donnigan to discuss how their Nimbra Edge platform is helping bridge this divide while dramatically reducing costs.
As a Swedish company with 25 years in video transport, Net Insight brings a unique perspective on the broadcast transformation journey. Adam explains how Nimbra Edge essentially functions as "an SDI destination through the cloud with an IP native focus," allowing broadcasters to maintain existing workflows while gradually modernizing their infrastructure. This approach proves critical for organizations heavily invested in legacy systems who can't afford disruptive wholesale changes.
The fascinating concept of "The Internet Snake - Transcoding Anywhere" reveals how modern video technology can function less like traditional transcoding and more like universal adapters. This approach connects disparate systems - enabling modern HEVC cameras to seamlessly interface with H.264-only devices through intelligent conversion points positioned anywhere in the network.
The most compelling revelation comes from Net Insight's partnership with NETINT Technologies. By implementing purpose-built Video Processing Units rather than general-purpose GPUs, they've achieved approximately 67% cost reduction for cloud transcoding over three years. As Adam notes, "When we did the math compared to current cloud transcoding solutions, this is about a third of the cost." Yet these savings come alongside expanded capabilities - frame rate conversion, overlays, automated shopping, and ad insertion functionalities in a streamlined, monitored environment.
We're witnessing a fundamental shift in how broadcast technology operates. While traditional broadcasters cautiously navigate organizational silos between satellite and IP teams, newcomers like FanDuel approach content delivery from cloud-native positions, automating workflows for their 400,000 annual events with consistent output specifications regardless of input variations.
Visit Net Insight and NETINT at NAB to discover how their combined solution creates a powerful toolbox for implementing hybrid distribution models with superior service quality and operational efficiency. The future of broadcast is here - more flexible, more capable, and significantly more cost-effective than ever before.
Stay tuned for more in-depth insights on video technology, trends, and practical applications. Subscribe to Voices of Video: Inside the Tech for exclusive, hands-on knowledge from the experts. For more resources, visit Voices of Video.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Voices of Video.
Voices of Video.
Voices of Video.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Voices of Video.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to another super exciting episode of Voices
of Video.
Now we have been doing a serieswith our partners that we're
going to be featuring at NAB,and today I am super excited to
be with NetInsight.
So I want to introduce Pierreand Adam from NetInsight.
(00:40):
Welcome guys.
Thank you, mark.
Thank you, yeah, it's great tohave you.
You know, we our two companieshave, I guess, known each other
for a little while.
Of course, who doesn't knowNetInsight?
But you know, we've known eachother and you know, now we've
(01:01):
integrated together and we'llget to talking about that later.
But why don't you first justintroduce yourself individually?
What do you each do for thecompany and why are we talking?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, so my name is Adam Nielsen.
I work as a product manager forNetInsight, working on our
cloud products.
I've been there for a couple ofyears now and looking to evolve
our product and the business wedo.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, and I'm Pierre.
I'm a software developer forNetInsight and I've been working
on the transcoding features ofNimble Edge, mainly so working
with you guys at NetInsight.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, you guys have done somereally good work.
Now, for those who don't knowNetInsight, because you know
it's possible, our audience, youknow, is involved in a lot of
different.
You know industries and marketsand applications, you know.
Adam, do you want to give alittle quick overview of the
(02:06):
company?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Sure.
So yeah, netinsight is aSwedish company based in
Stockholm.
It's turned 25 years, like ayear ago, I think.
So we've been roughly in theindustry for that long, working
mostly on transporting solutions, so offering world-class and
industry-leading technologiesfor high-quality content
delivery.
So very much focused on thetier one events sending content
(02:33):
from the venue to differentdistribution places mainly on
the hardware side.
But then in the recent five, 10years we've been going more and
more towards the software sideand focusing more on IP and
solutions like that.
In the recent five, 10 yearswe've been going more and more
towards the software side andfocusing more on IP and
solutions like that.
And we're, you know, a globalcompany with customers all over
the world.
So it's been a good, you know,25 years for us.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, amazing.
Well, you know, I know, as wewere sketching out what we
wanted to cover and talk aboutthe, you know, transformation of
broadcast is definitelysomething that I'm sure we'll
touch on in this interview.
But, yeah, so just real quickfor the listeners, we are going
(03:19):
to be at NAB, obviously, that isNetInt.
Netinsight is also going to beat nab.
Now, if you're listening tothis after nab, well, and you
didn't get to see either of ourcompanies, you know, contact one
or both of us and we'll behappy to give you an overview of
what you missed.
But if you're watching thisbefore nab, you'll want to be
(03:41):
sure and visit NetInsight at theNetInsight booth, obviously,
netint.
We also have a booth and it'sgoing to be a great opportunity
to see these solutions in person.
So you know where I'd like tostart is to talk about your
product, nimbra Edge, is to talkabout your product, nimbra Edge
(04:04):
, and I think it might behelpful to give a quick overview
of what Nimbra Edge is, youknow.
So, describe the product, talkabout you know how it works and
what it's designed for, and thenthat might be a nice segue to
then discuss the integration ofVPUs as we move towards talking
(04:28):
about how broadcast is justfundamentally being transformed
right now from an architecturaland a technical perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But what's Nimbra Edge?
Yeah, nimbra Edge is, you know,it's a very much simplified,
it's an SDI destination throughthe cloud with an IP native
focus, and that was sort of abig thing for NetInsight,
(05:22):
because NetInsight had useddifferent ways of transporting
and mostly been focused onhardware solutions.
So this was a software solutiontrying to do similar things, as
our hardware products aremostly focused on the production
and contribution side, but, youknow, using and leveraging the
arq protocols we have.
So basically, it's a softwareyou put on a server that makes
it possible to transport, yeah,your content from point a to
(05:43):
point b, c, d, e, well, as manypoints as you want, and, yeah,
that is basically what we'll bedoing with this end-to-end
monitoring as well interesting,you know?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
um, I don't think I want to take a little detour um,
why did you spin off sai?
And I don't think everyoneknows aboutsy uh and the fact
that you know that's prettyimportant to Amazon and their
live uh sports and you know alltheir live streaming efforts.
(06:14):
But, yeah, why did you spin offPsy?
Why'd you sell it?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
well, I guess money is always involved.
It's it's before me and Pierrejoined the company.
But yeah, it was a product morefocused on OTT and I think
NetInsight understood that ourstrength maybe isn't on the end
consumer, transporting things tothe end consumer, but rather
before that, so fitting into thecompany strategy Contribution
(06:42):
more contribution thandistribution.
Exactly exactly companystrategy, more contribution than
distribution.
Exactly exactly so you know.
But it was a.
It's a really cool product andit's nice seeing it being used
at the absolutely highest levelnow yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Uh, I've heard, you know.
I just came back from mile highvideo and um, traditionally I
you would never really hear saimentioned at all by video
engineers at the conferences,and I'm just saying not that
maybe nobody knew about it, butyou just didn't hear much talk
of the technology.
(07:16):
I think no less than maybe twoor three times.
Somebody brought it up and Iwent oh okay, I've known and I
know what Amazon's doing, youknow.
So, yeah, very interesting.
Well, you know, pierre, you,along with Adam and, I believe,
(07:40):
david Edwards and Jonathan Smith, authored a paper Really
fascinating title.
Do you remember the title I'vegot up in front of me?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Ooh something with is it?
Is it distributed some internetsnake stuff or what?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Internet snake yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah,
exactly, yeah, but by the way,not a trick question.
And and hey, just as an asideif, if, if anyone asks me like
so, mark, I loved your last blogpost.
That article was awesome.
What was the title?
Again, I'd have a total blankstare.
(08:16):
So anyway, yeah, networkDistribution and the Internet
Snake exclamation marktranscoding anywhere.
Really fascinating.
Maybe would you mind, pierre,sharing sort of like an abstract
or just a high level of what isit that you were communicating
(08:39):
in this paper.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, for sure.
It's sort of the concept ofbeing able to connect anything
to anything and make this sortof transformation that is
required sometimes for theconnection to happen, being able
to do that anywhere, so youknow, connecting different
middle boxes that have differentspec sheets, and all of this in
(09:02):
the cloud or on-premise.
So we sort of dive into thatand discuss pricing and what
sort of cards and hardwaresupports these features.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Do you think and I believe thisis what comes through even in
the paper is the role of thetranscoder transitioning,
transforming to be?
You know, it's interesting, youcall Nimboreg a router.
(09:37):
You know, is a transcoder evenstarting to become?
Yes, it still needs to take afile in or a bitstream in.
You know we're talking mostlyabout live, I think.
So you know, it takes abitstream in and then it, you
know, gives you a higherrendition and a medium
(09:58):
resolution and maybe a coupledifferent bit rates, and so
there's still that function,right.
But do you think that the roleof the transcoder is being
rewritten?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
The transcoder as the file transcoder, I think, is
still alive and well, but whatwe're doing is more like an
adapter right where we can plugin your European plug to the US
plug, right where you might havea super modern camera sending
HEVC, but you have some middlebox somewhere that can only take
(10:35):
HE64, for example.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Interesting.
That can only take H.264, forexample.
Interesting and certainly, asyou said.
Adam made the comment that youwork primarily in the broadcast
domain, with broadcasters.
There is a lot of legacystandards still out there.
Hello, MPEG-2 and interlaced.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
For sure.
Just to comment on that, thatand that's what we're seeing.
Right, we need to adapt tothese legacy standards.
But you know, you talk tocustomers or users and they're
saying you know, we, we want to,we want to do this, uh, but
they've so heavily invested intoa previous technology so, in
(11:18):
order for them to move tosomething new, that step might
be very big.
So, in order to find a way ofmaking that transition a little
bit smoother by, you know, usingthis concept of, like Pierre
says, like with the adapter, itsimplifies their way of moving
to some, you know, towardssomething that's a little bit
more modern and new, and theydon't need to go full step and
(11:42):
change everything that they didjust to adjust it to the new
things.
They can take it one step at atime, and that's what we're sort
of trying to solve with ourapproach to this.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah Well, I'd like to understand.
The product even has Edge inthe name, so Nimbra Edge, and
yet in the paper you referencethat the cloud is clearly a
platform that a lot ofbroadcasters have migrated to or
are in the middle of migratingto, or have been there.
(12:15):
You know they've been there foryears now.
So help us understand.
And for those listening sayingwait, a second Ed sort of
implies like a box that'ssitting somewhere.
Where does this architecturallygo?
Where does this system go andhow does it connect, you know,
(12:37):
to the common platforms that arein use today?
Do you want to, do, you want totake this?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
pierre should I yeah, sure, uh, no, I mean, you're
definitely right.
Right, like the term edge youwould expect like a box at an
isp room, um, and and like edgecan totally do that right.
We have the concept of videoregions, which means that you
can create a region ofappliances so whether that's
(13:01):
boxes or servers, that's up toyou and these can be in
different geographical regions.
So you might actually have oneat a stadium, and then the cloud
region, which is your routingregion, and then maybe you have
some ISP somewhere that wantsMPEG-2 audio and H.262.
(13:23):
And so you might do thetranscoding at their sites at
the edge.
So it is edge, but it's alsoeverything in between the edges.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Interesting, yeah, interesting, yeah.
So, adam, what are you saying?
You're talking to customers.
How quickly are broadcastersmodernizing?
And that's my term, but I thinkthat's what you're inferring
(13:58):
here is that there is amodernization effort that has to
happen.
It's always fascinating.
Fascinating to me because, youknow, we sort of have a foot in
Well, there's more than twocamps, but for this illustration
, since I only have two feet,you know, in kind of the
streaming world and increasinglya little more of the
(14:22):
traditional, you know thebroadcast world, and I always
sort of chuckle a little bitinside when I'm talking to maybe
someone's a little moretraditional and they'll spend
five minutes telling you howcritical it is that they match
Netflix quality, that Netflix istheir competitor, and then
they'll say, but we don't do OTT, we're not OTT, and and it's
(14:46):
like, well, and themodernization that's happening
is the standards now arehomogenizing around three codecs
, you know, which has been thecase for a while.
So you know, but H.264, hevc andnow AV1 is, you know, coming
out more strongly.
(15:06):
I think it's lagging a littlemore in the true broadcast side,
but for OTT, av1 is absolutelycoming.
You know, you have HLS or dashin terms of your if you're going
to be distributing over theopen internet.
You know those are largely the,you know the formats that
(15:28):
you're going to distribute thecontent in.
And then, of course, we can goand look at everything else,
right, and say, okay, yep,that's being used in modern
broadcast, yep, that's what metauses when they're streaming
Facebook lives.
You know, and that's whatYouTube uses, and you know
that's what Netflix uses.
And so what are you seeing?
(15:50):
You know, in terms of just thepace, you know I'm curious of,
of willing to be disrupted andeven disrupt themselves, you
know, for your customers, um,are they?
yeah, they're doing a good job.
Are they running into this?
I don't know if we're ready yetit's it's.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's interesting, I would say, like the traditional
broadcasters is you know they're.
They're more the last you knowscenario.
They're more the last scenario.
They're more like we don'treally know if we want to go
into this.
I don't think that's a badapproach per se.
I think there are some validreasons for not diving into the
deep end, and especially becauseI think, if you don't
(16:34):
understand how to leverage thenew technology and the different
pieces of it, it's super easyto go to AWS and buy everything
from their marketplace and boltthese things together.
Good, you will get a finesolution.
Problem is you will get alock-in like no one else.
You're going to buy them andyou're not going to get out, so
(16:56):
you can do that.
It's fine, you're going to behappy, but it's probably going
to cost you a bunch of money inthe end because you're going to
get lock-in effects and theywon't be able to get out and
switch these pieces and stufflike that.
So we have that, but we do seethat broadcasters do want to
leverage what's out there, butit's you know, going from
satellite to this morecloud-based solutions, it takes
(17:17):
time because they're used todoing things in certain ways.
It might be even differentteams that have set up the
satellite links towards,compared to the ones that are
now working on the moreIP-native cloud type of
solutions.
So having those conversationsis just not about talking to the
people you used to talk to.
(17:38):
It's about talking to the newones that have joined the
company and bridging them aswell.
And I think that is sort of thebiggest challenge for us is
that usually when we talk topeople, we're just talking to a
small, you know part of thecompany, but you need to bridge
the gap in between.
You know all these sites andthat that's the difficult part.
But then then you have I'm inLos Angeles right now for the
(18:01):
video services forum andyesterday there was a company
that got up that have been it'sa new company FanDuel on the
stage, betting and all that.
And the way they do things isvery different.
They're basically cloud nativefrom the start because they have
no legacy to think about.
And when they told me they do400,000 events a year and they
(18:26):
need to spin things upimmediately.
But what?
What they told us and this sortof leads into what we're trying
to solve is that you know theyhave these events that are
coming from everywhere all overthe world.
So they're getting a bunch ofinputs or a bunch of sources
that you know might be fromeurope, asia and then us, and
they have a certain frame rate.
(18:47):
But when they send it out, theywant it.
You know they want to perfectlyset up.
So they get an input and thenthey basically want to automate
a workflow that tells them we'rereceiving this, but we want to
send it out.
As you know, we're receivingthis frame rate, we want to send
it out as this frame rate anddo these things and build that
automation.
And that's where we're seeingthat the industry is going, that
(19:11):
in the end, you just want toautomate these workflows and
have less hardware and just beable to spin things up and down
quickly, because you know that'sthe way people are looking at
things now.
It's, it's not.
We're seeing less and lessengagement into watching full
live events.
They're watching highlights orclips, or you know it's, it's
yeah, it's a huge difference, soyeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
It's interesting, but it's difficult, it's a
difficult thing to, and and Iguess that's a perfect segue to
how we started working togetherbecause you know so yeah, I mean
I won't take the words out ofyour mouth what you know, why
don't you?
You know both, pierre.
You know Adam you can give youknow the journey here of how you
(19:59):
discovered NetEnt, and then youknow what we're doing for you
and the role that's playing inbeing able to deliver a solution
that does what you justdescribed.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, so I can give you a little bit of background.
So me and a colleague basedhere in the US, we've been
talking for years.
You know what can we do inorder to evolve our business and
the way we do things.
You know we have this platform,but cloud contribution is it's
(20:31):
not a huge market and it it's.
It solves certain problems, butit doesn't solve all of them.
Far from them, from far from it.
So you know, we started talkingabout how can we do things and
we started looking at weprobably want to go into more
distribution types of workflows.
So doing that, we I don't knowhow I find that in, but I
remember walking over last yearat nab to the booth, uh, meeting
(20:54):
with you guys, and I sawsomeone had told me that your
quality was really, really high.
Uh, so I walked over and westarted you know the
conversations and and we put Iwell, I put the card in in
Pierre's hands, like two weekslater and you know?
yeah, pierre, it's just I gaveit to you and said you know, fix
it, or I want to solve this.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I want to do these things, check it out yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Exactly.
Basically, that's what happened.
Yeah, Pierre took over theproject, basically trying to
drive it forward.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And it was like christmas because I I'd been
spending um I don't know howlong getting uh, xilinx, u30 uh
to work.
So it's an interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
You know, we've heard , we've heard about that card
and we've heard sentiment,archaeology and uh, you know,
building your own images lots offun things that take weeks.
It was great, honestly.
We were still testing whatcards we want to support and
testing the workflow.
It was really great to have acard that sort of worked.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I'm curious you had reached it sounds to me like
you had definitely alreadyreached the conclusion you need
to adopt hardware, right?
Because you were testing theother guy's card, you discovered
ours.
I assume you looked at GPU aswell, or did you bypass GPU for
(22:26):
cost or other reasons?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
No, so we're doing GPU as well.
But it's you know it's always abit annoying to have to buy the
entire GPU die and then youonly use the tiny end-lens
encoders on it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So that is, I think the market is, I'll say, finally
waking up to that.
But again, you know that's kindof the biggest, the biggest,
one of the biggest rubs, youknow, with GPU architecture.
You know, look we, you know werespect all of our competitors.
(23:02):
So you know me personally andour general attitude as a
company is you know we don'tdismiss or you know you won't
see us put out a lot of negativeor really anything about
anybody.
You know NVIDIA, some of thosecards do a pretty good job, you
know they're, you know they, youknow they do in some cases a
(23:24):
very adequate job, you know.
So you know there's no way thatanybody could really say, oh
well, the quality is, you know,is not sufficient.
But the big problem is is thatit is a GPU, the.
You know the video IP isroughly, it depends on the
product, but it's about 15% ofthe chip.
(23:45):
So you know you think you'repaying a hundred percent, but
you really only you can neverget more than 15% of the value.
You know, and so that rightthere, just economically, it
just sort of hits a wall for alot of people.
And you know it's why, when welooked at building this whole,
(24:05):
designing the and building theVPU category, the video
processing unit category.
It was that revelation where itall started.
It's like, wait a second, ifyou are in video and you're
using this for video decoding,video encoding and other
processing, scaling functionsand advanced color space
(24:27):
conversion and different thingsthat we need to do you know
scaling functions and you knowadvanced color space conversion
and you know different thingsthat we need to do.
Right, shouldn't you have 100%access to the chip?
So it seemed obvious.
But yeah, the market's reallyreally caught on there, so this
is great.
Why don't you give a quickroundup as to you know, if you
(24:54):
can?
I don't know, you know.
I'm not asking you topre-announce anything from you
know, from NAB or for NAB, butwhat are people going to see you
know at NAB when they come toyour booth and and what are the
kinds of conversations that youhope you're going to have, you
know, with the market, with theindustry, with those who come,
(25:15):
you know, to see you?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So you know, what they're going to see is is
they're going to see how it'spossible to not just transport
content but to manipulate thatcontent to fit whoever is
receiving it or whoever'ssending it, so that it works.
You can build multipleworkflows from one single stream
(25:40):
to fit whoever is going toreceive your content in a very
simple and end-to-end type ofway.
It's an orchestration where youget all the monitoring and all
that.
So that is what they're goingto see and how you can take
these features as where you know, we're talking about frame rate
conversion, we're talking aboutoverlays and we're talking
about auto shopping all thethings you can do in a very
(26:00):
simple way for a low cost and Ithink we haven't really
mentioned that, but this is a.
I think when we did the mathson this, compared to current
cloud transcoding solutions,this is about a third of a cost
when you look at a three-yearperiod.
So that's what they're going tosee and all the things you can
also build on top of this,because these are features that
you can in a very nice way.
(26:22):
You can put them together tobuild some really interesting
workflows and build.
You know, you can do adinsertion and things like that.
So that is what customers aregoing to see at our booth and
it's going to be.
You know, what I'm hoping to getout of it is a conversation
where we're not just talkingabout, you know, cost is always
important and people want tokeep that cost low, but what I
(26:43):
want to talk about is how youcan actually, you know, evolve
the way you do things in asimplified manner without having
to actually put that mucheffort into it, because this is
basically something you can getit straight out of the box.
It's not a big thing for you toget going with this.
So, you know, I want to hearhow.
(27:04):
You know, what approach do ourpotential you know, customers
have to, you know, having thishybrid distribution model, and
how can they combine thesethings in order to improve
efficiency and be cost efficientand have high service quality.
So those are the type ofconversations I want to have,
because this combined solutionwith your product and our
(27:28):
product gives the customer youknow this, it's a toolbox, it's
a toolbox and they haveeverything.
You know it's, it's, it's yeah,they can do a bunch of stuff,
and that's what I'm hoping totalk about.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, pierre, I'll let you answer, but I just want
to put an exclamation point onit.
Is true, you know, cost isfront and center.
On one hand we like to say, youknow well, it shouldn't drive
all decisions.
The reality is we know that atthe end of the day it may not
literally drive a decision,because something can be
(28:04):
inexpensive but if it doesn'twork, doesn't work right, isn't
reliable, then of course it'snot going to be used.
But when you can cut the costby 67%, when your OPEX goes down
greater than 50% and that's nottheoretical, that's you know.
By the way, we have some, youknow some more on the OTT, a
(28:29):
little bit more simplifiedworkflows than what you're
involved in.
The number is 80%.
Yeah, 8-0% cut in OPEX is justamazing.
But I love the point thatyou're making where not only are
we reducing costs, which in andof itself should be like where
do I sign, are we reducing costswhich in and of itself should
(28:52):
be like where do I sign, butyou're actually in some cases
bringing functionality, bringingcapability, bringing
performance that isn't evenavailable or would be even that
much more costly you know to doin sort of the traditional
architectures.
So, yeah, you know, we reallysee what you're doing as an
enabler, and that always puts asmile on our face because you
(29:17):
know it's great.
There's a lot of uses for ourproducts and for anybody's
products, right?
But it's really fun.
It's cool when you see yourproduct getting used, getting
sold and it's allowing somethingthat just wasn't possible
before you know, or costeffective, you know.
(29:38):
So that's the word enabler forme.
Pierre, you know you're goingto be there.
Presumably.
You'll be talking to a lot ofengineers.
You're going to be probablytouching base with customers who
are in the middle ofdeployments or starting
deployments.
What are you excited about?
(30:00):
What conversations do youanticipate you'll be having at
NAB?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, I think it's going to be great to see some
excitement.
You know we've been cookingsome great demos and some great
software in the lab, so hearingwhat people want to do with it
and you know where we've done agood job of sort of building the
functionality that's needed andwhere you know which areas we
(30:28):
want to.
You know, dive deeper into thiscoming year.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Awesome, Awesome.
Yeah, it's so valuable to be infront of, you know, of users,
of customers, to hear firsthandwhat they care about, what they
don't care about.
You know it's super valuable.
As an engineer, my formaleducation is computer science,
but I never actually went downthe full engineering path, so I
(30:55):
went to the dark side, as somewould say, sales and marketing.
But anyway, yeah, so that'sgreat.
Well, guys, thank you forcoming on and speaking with me.
It was a wonderful conversationand you know, if it's not clear
to the listener, we, as inNetIn, are very excited about
(31:17):
what we're doing with NetInsight, the two net companies.
You know we're very excited andwe hope you'll come see both of
us.
But definitely make sure youvisit NetInsight at NAB and I
guess, until next time, happyencoding.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
This episode of Voices of Video is brought to
you by NetInt Technologies.
If you are looking forcutting-edge video encoding
solutions, check out NetInt'sproducts at netintcom.
Voices of Video.
Voices of Video.
Voices of Video.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Voices of Video.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to another super exciting episode of Voices
of Video.
Now we have been doing a serieswith our partners that we're
going to be featuring at NAB,and today I am super excited to
be with NetInsight.
So I want to introduce Pierreand Adam from NetInsight.
(00:40):
Welcome guys.
Thank you, mark.
Thank you, yeah, it's great tohave you.
You know, we our two companieshave, I guess, known each other
for a little while.
Of course, who doesn't knowNetInsight?
But you know, we've known eachother and you know, now we've
(01:01):
integrated together and we'llget to talking about that later.
But why don't you first justintroduce yourself individually?
What do you each do for thecompany and why are we talking?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, so my name is Adam Nielsen.
I work as a product manager forNetInsight, working on our
cloud products.
I've been there for a couple ofyears now and looking to evolve
our product and the business wedo.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, and I'm Pierre.
I'm a software developer forNetInsight and I've been working
on the transcoding features ofNimble Edge, mainly so working
with you guys at NetInsight.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, you guys have done somereally good work.
Now, for those who don't knowNetInsight, because you know
it's possible, our audience, youknow, is involved in a lot of
different.
You know industries and marketsand applications, you know.
Adam, do you want to give alittle quick overview of the
(02:06):
company?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Sure.
So yeah, netinsight is aSwedish company based in
Stockholm.
It's turned 25 years, like ayear ago, I think.
So we've been roughly in theindustry for that long, working
mostly on transporting solutions, so offering world-class and
industry-leading technologiesfor high-quality content
delivery.
So very much focused on thetier one events sending content
(02:33):
from the venue to differentdistribution places mainly on
the hardware side.
But then in the recent five, 10years we've been going more and
more towards the software sideand focusing more on IP and
solutions like that.
In the recent five, 10 yearswe've been going more and more
towards the software side andfocusing more on IP and
solutions like that.
And we're, you know, a globalcompany with customers all over
the world.
So it's been a good, you know,25 years for us.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, amazing.
Well, you know, I know, as wewere sketching out what we
wanted to cover and talk aboutthe, you know, transformation of
broadcast is definitelysomething that I'm sure we'll
touch on in this interview.
But, yeah, so just real quickfor the listeners, we are going
(03:19):
to be at NAB, obviously, that isNetInt.
Netinsight is also going to beat nab.
Now, if you're listening tothis after nab, well, and you
didn't get to see either of ourcompanies, you know, contact one
or both of us and we'll behappy to give you an overview of
what you missed.
But if you're watching thisbefore nab, you'll want to be
(03:41):
sure and visit NetInsight at theNetInsight booth, obviously,
netint.
We also have a booth and it'sgoing to be a great opportunity
to see these solutions in person.
So you know where I'd like tostart is to talk about your
product, nimbra Edge, is to talkabout your product, nimbra Edge
(04:04):
, and I think it might behelpful to give a quick overview
of what Nimbra Edge is, youknow.
So, describe the product, talkabout you know how it works and
what it's designed for, and thenthat might be a nice segue to
then discuss the integration ofVPUs as we move towards talking
(04:28):
about how broadcast is justfundamentally being transformed
right now from an architecturaland a technical perspective.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
But what's Nimbra Edge?
Yeah, nimbra Edge is, you know,it's a very much simplified,
it's an SDI destination throughthe cloud with an IP native
focus, and that was sort of abig thing for NetInsight,
(05:22):
because NetInsight had useddifferent ways of transporting
and mostly been focused onhardware solutions.
So this was a software solutiontrying to do similar things, as
our hardware products aremostly focused on the production
and contribution side, but, youknow, using and leveraging the
arq protocols we have.
So basically, it's a softwareyou put on a server that makes
it possible to transport, yeah,your content from point a to
(05:43):
point b, c, d, e, well, as manypoints as you want, and, yeah,
that is basically what we'll bedoing with this end-to-end
monitoring as well interesting,you know?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
um, I don't think I want to take a little detour um,
why did you spin off sai?
And I don't think everyoneknows aboutsy uh and the fact
that you know that's prettyimportant to Amazon and their
live uh sports and you know alltheir live streaming efforts.
(06:14):
But, yeah, why did you spin offPsy?
Why'd you sell it?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
well, I guess money is always involved.
It's it's before me and Pierrejoined the company.
But yeah, it was a product morefocused on OTT and I think
NetInsight understood that ourstrength maybe isn't on the end
consumer, transporting things tothe end consumer, but rather
before that, so fitting into thecompany strategy Contribution
(06:42):
more contribution thandistribution.
Exactly exactly companystrategy, more contribution than
distribution.
Exactly exactly so you know.
But it was a.
It's a really cool product andit's nice seeing it being used
at the absolutely highest levelnow yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Uh, I've heard, you know.
I just came back from mile highvideo and um, traditionally I
you would never really hear saimentioned at all by video
engineers at the conferences,and I'm just saying not that
maybe nobody knew about it, butyou just didn't hear much talk
of the technology.
(07:16):
I think no less than maybe twoor three times.
Somebody brought it up and Iwent oh okay, I've known and I
know what Amazon's doing, youknow.
So, yeah, very interesting.
Well, you know, pierre, you,along with Adam and, I believe,
(07:40):
david Edwards and Jonathan Smith, authored a paper Really
fascinating title.
Do you remember the title I'vegot up in front of me?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Ooh something with is it?
Is it distributed some internetsnake stuff or what?
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Internet snake yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah,
exactly, yeah, but by the way,not a trick question.
And and hey, just as an asideif, if, if anyone asks me like
so, mark, I loved your last blogpost.
That article was awesome.
What was the title?
Again, I'd have a total blankstare.
(08:16):
So anyway, yeah, networkDistribution and the Internet
Snake exclamation marktranscoding anywhere.
Really fascinating.
Maybe would you mind, pierre,sharing sort of like an abstract
or just a high level of what isit that you were communicating
(08:39):
in this paper.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, for sure.
It's sort of the concept ofbeing able to connect anything
to anything and make this sortof transformation that is
required sometimes for theconnection to happen, being able
to do that anywhere, so youknow, connecting different
middle boxes that have differentspec sheets, and all of this in
(09:02):
the cloud or on-premise.
So we sort of dive into thatand discuss pricing and what
sort of cards and hardwaresupports these features.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Do you think and I believe thisis what comes through even in
the paper is the role of thetranscoder transitioning,
transforming to be?
You know, it's interesting, youcall Nimboreg a router.
(09:37):
You know, is a transcoder evenstarting to become?
Yes, it still needs to take afile in or a bitstream in.
You know we're talking mostlyabout live, I think.
So you know, it takes abitstream in and then it, you
know, gives you a higherrendition and a medium
(09:58):
resolution and maybe a coupledifferent bit rates, and so
there's still that function,right.
But do you think that the roleof the transcoder is being
rewritten?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
The transcoder as the file transcoder, I think, is
still alive and well, but whatwe're doing is more like an
adapter right where we can plugin your European plug to the US
plug, right where you might havea super modern camera sending
HEVC, but you have some middlebox somewhere that can only take
(10:35):
HE64, for example.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Interesting.
That can only take H.264, forexample.
Interesting and certainly, asyou said.
Adam made the comment that youwork primarily in the broadcast
domain, with broadcasters.
There is a lot of legacystandards still out there.
Hello, MPEG-2 and interlaced.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
For sure.
Just to comment on that, thatand that's what we're seeing.
Right, we need to adapt tothese legacy standards.
But you know, you talk tocustomers or users and they're
saying you know, we, we want to,we want to do this, uh, but
they've so heavily invested intoa previous technology so, in
(11:18):
order for them to move tosomething new, that step might
be very big.
So, in order to find a way ofmaking that transition a little
bit smoother by, you know, usingthis concept of, like Pierre
says, like with the adapter, itsimplifies their way of moving
to some, you know, towardssomething that's a little bit
more modern and new, and theydon't need to go full step and
(11:42):
change everything that they didjust to adjust it to the new
things.
They can take it one step at atime, and that's what we're sort
of trying to solve with ourapproach to this.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah Well, I'd like to understand.
The product even has Edge inthe name, so Nimbra Edge, and
yet in the paper you referencethat the cloud is clearly a
platform that a lot ofbroadcasters have migrated to or
are in the middle of migratingto, or have been there.
(12:15):
You know they've been there foryears now.
So help us understand.
And for those listening sayingwait, a second Ed sort of
implies like a box that'ssitting somewhere.
Where does this architecturallygo?
Where does this system go andhow does it connect, you know,
(12:37):
to the common platforms that arein use today?
Do you want to, do, you want totake this?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
pierre should I yeah, sure, uh, no, I mean, you're
definitely right.
Right, like the term edge youwould expect like a box at an
isp room, um, and and like edgecan totally do that right.
We have the concept of videoregions, which means that you
can create a region ofappliances so whether that's
(13:01):
boxes or servers, that's up toyou and these can be in
different geographical regions.
So you might actually have oneat a stadium, and then the cloud
region, which is your routingregion, and then maybe you have
some ISP somewhere that wantsMPEG-2 audio and H.262.
(13:23):
And so you might do thetranscoding at their sites at
the edge.
So it is edge, but it's alsoeverything in between the edges.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Interesting, yeah, interesting, yeah.
So, adam, what are you saying?
You're talking to customers.
How quickly are broadcastersmodernizing?
And that's my term, but I thinkthat's what you're inferring
(13:58):
here is that there is amodernization effort that has to
happen.
It's always fascinating.
Fascinating to me because, youknow, we sort of have a foot in
Well, there's more than twocamps, but for this illustration
, since I only have two feet,you know, in kind of the
streaming world and increasinglya little more of the
(14:22):
traditional, you know thebroadcast world, and I always
sort of chuckle a little bitinside when I'm talking to maybe
someone's a little moretraditional and they'll spend
five minutes telling you howcritical it is that they match
Netflix quality, that Netflix istheir competitor, and then
they'll say, but we don't do OTT, we're not OTT, and and it's
(14:46):
like, well, and themodernization that's happening
is the standards now arehomogenizing around three codecs
, you know, which has been thecase for a while.
So you know, but H.264, hevc andnow AV1 is, you know, coming
out more strongly.
(15:06):
I think it's lagging a littlemore in the true broadcast side,
but for OTT, av1 is absolutelycoming.
You know, you have HLS or dashin terms of your if you're going
to be distributing over theopen internet.
You know those are largely the,you know the formats that
(15:28):
you're going to distribute thecontent in.
And then, of course, we can goand look at everything else,
right, and say, okay, yep,that's being used in modern
broadcast, yep, that's what metauses when they're streaming
Facebook lives.
You know, and that's whatYouTube uses, and you know
that's what Netflix uses.
And so what are you seeing?
(15:50):
You know, in terms of just thepace, you know I'm curious of,
of willing to be disrupted andeven disrupt themselves, you
know, for your customers, um,are they?
yeah, they're doing a good job.
Are they running into this?
I don't know if we're ready yetit's it's.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's interesting, I would say, like the traditional
broadcasters is you know they're.
They're more the last you knowscenario.
They're more the last scenario.
They're more like we don'treally know if we want to go
into this.
I don't think that's a badapproach per se.
I think there are some validreasons for not diving into the
deep end, and especially becauseI think, if you don't
(16:34):
understand how to leverage thenew technology and the different
pieces of it, it's super easyto go to AWS and buy everything
from their marketplace and boltthese things together.
Good, you will get a finesolution.
Problem is you will get alock-in like no one else.
You're going to buy them andyou're not going to get out, so
(16:56):
you can do that.
It's fine, you're going to behappy, but it's probably going
to cost you a bunch of money inthe end because you're going to
get lock-in effects and theywon't be able to get out and
switch these pieces and stufflike that.
So we have that, but we do seethat broadcasters do want to
leverage what's out there, butit's you know, going from
satellite to this morecloud-based solutions, it takes
(17:17):
time because they're used todoing things in certain ways.
It might be even differentteams that have set up the
satellite links towards,compared to the ones that are
now working on the moreIP-native cloud type of
solutions.
So having those conversationsis just not about talking to the
people you used to talk to.
(17:38):
It's about talking to the newones that have joined the
company and bridging them aswell.
And I think that is sort of thebiggest challenge for us is
that usually when we talk topeople, we're just talking to a
small, you know part of thecompany, but you need to bridge
the gap in between.
You know all these sites andthat that's the difficult part.
But then then you have I'm inLos Angeles right now for the
(18:01):
video services forum andyesterday there was a company
that got up that have been it'sa new company FanDuel on the
stage, betting and all that.
And the way they do things isvery different.
They're basically cloud nativefrom the start because they have
no legacy to think about.
And when they told me they do400,000 events a year and they
(18:26):
need to spin things upimmediately.
But what?
What they told us and this sortof leads into what we're trying
to solve is that you know theyhave these events that are
coming from everywhere all overthe world.
So they're getting a bunch ofinputs or a bunch of sources
that you know might be fromeurope, asia and then us, and
they have a certain frame rate.
(18:47):
But when they send it out, theywant it.
You know they want to perfectlyset up.
So they get an input and thenthey basically want to automate
a workflow that tells them we'rereceiving this, but we want to
send it out.
As you know, we're receivingthis frame rate, we want to send
it out as this frame rate anddo these things and build that
automation.
And that's where we're seeingthat the industry is going, that
(19:11):
in the end, you just want toautomate these workflows and
have less hardware and just beable to spin things up and down
quickly, because you know that'sthe way people are looking at
things now.
It's, it's not.
We're seeing less and lessengagement into watching full
live events.
They're watching highlights orclips, or you know it's, it's
yeah, it's a huge difference, soyeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
It's interesting, but it's difficult, it's a
difficult thing to, and and Iguess that's a perfect segue to
how we started working togetherbecause you know so yeah, I mean
I won't take the words out ofyour mouth what you know, why
don't you?
You know both, pierre.
You know Adam you can give youknow the journey here of how you
(19:59):
discovered NetEnt, and then youknow what we're doing for you
and the role that's playing inbeing able to deliver a solution
that does what you justdescribed.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, so I can give you a little bit of background.
So me and a colleague basedhere in the US, we've been
talking for years.
You know what can we do inorder to evolve our business and
the way we do things.
You know we have this platform,but cloud contribution is it's
(20:31):
not a huge market and it it's.
It solves certain problems, butit doesn't solve all of them.
Far from them, from far from it.
So you know, we started talkingabout how can we do things and
we started looking at weprobably want to go into more
distribution types of workflows.
So doing that, we I don't knowhow I find that in, but I
remember walking over last yearat nab to the booth, uh, meeting
(20:54):
with you guys, and I sawsomeone had told me that your
quality was really, really high.
Uh, so I walked over and westarted you know the
conversations and and we put Iwell, I put the card in in
Pierre's hands, like two weekslater and you know?
yeah, pierre, it's just I gaveit to you and said you know, fix
it, or I want to solve this.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I want to do these things, check it out yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Exactly.
Basically, that's what happened.
Yeah, Pierre took over theproject, basically trying to
drive it forward.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And it was like christmas because I I'd been
spending um I don't know howlong getting uh, xilinx, u30 uh
to work.
So it's an interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
You know, we've heard , we've heard about that card
and we've heard sentiment,archaeology and uh, you know,
building your own images lots offun things that take weeks.
It was great, honestly.
We were still testing whatcards we want to support and
testing the workflow.
It was really great to have acard that sort of worked.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I'm curious you had reached it sounds to me like
you had definitely alreadyreached the conclusion you need
to adopt hardware, right?
Because you were testing theother guy's card, you discovered
ours.
I assume you looked at GPU aswell, or did you bypass GPU for
(22:26):
cost or other reasons?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
No, so we're doing GPU as well.
But it's you know it's always abit annoying to have to buy the
entire GPU die and then youonly use the tiny end-lens
encoders on it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So that is, I think the market is, I'll say, finally
waking up to that.
But again, you know that's kindof the biggest, the biggest,
one of the biggest rubs, youknow, with GPU architecture.
You know, look we, you know werespect all of our competitors.
(23:02):
So you know me personally andour general attitude as a
company is you know we don'tdismiss or you know you won't
see us put out a lot of negativeor really anything about
anybody.
You know NVIDIA, some of thosecards do a pretty good job, you
know they're, you know they, youknow they do in some cases a
(23:24):
very adequate job, you know.
So you know there's no way thatanybody could really say, oh
well, the quality is, you know,is not sufficient.
But the big problem is is thatit is a GPU, the.
You know the video IP isroughly, it depends on the
product, but it's about 15% ofthe chip.
(23:45):
So you know you think you'repaying a hundred percent, but
you really only you can neverget more than 15% of the value.
You know, and so that rightthere, just economically, it
just sort of hits a wall for alot of people.
And you know it's why, when welooked at building this whole,
(24:05):
designing the and building theVPU category, the video
processing unit category.
It was that revelation where itall started.
It's like, wait a second, ifyou are in video and you're
using this for video decoding,video encoding and other
processing, scaling functionsand advanced color space
(24:27):
conversion and different thingsthat we need to do you know
scaling functions and you knowadvanced color space conversion
and you know different thingsthat we need to do.
Right, shouldn't you have 100%access to the chip?
So it seemed obvious.
But yeah, the market's reallyreally caught on there, so this
is great.
Why don't you give a quickroundup as to you know, if you
(24:54):
can?
I don't know, you know.
I'm not asking you topre-announce anything from you
know, from NAB or for NAB, butwhat are people going to see you
know at NAB when they come toyour booth and and what are the
kinds of conversations that youhope you're going to have, you
know, with the market, with theindustry, with those who come,
(25:15):
you know, to see you?
Speaker 2 (25:18):
So you know, what they're going to see is is
they're going to see how it'spossible to not just transport
content but to manipulate thatcontent to fit whoever is
receiving it or whoever'ssending it, so that it works.
You can build multipleworkflows from one single stream
(25:40):
to fit whoever is going toreceive your content in a very
simple and end-to-end type ofway.
It's an orchestration where youget all the monitoring and all
that.
So that is what they're goingto see and how you can take
these features as where you know, we're talking about frame rate
conversion, we're talking aboutoverlays and we're talking
about auto shopping all thethings you can do in a very
(26:00):
simple way for a low cost and Ithink we haven't really
mentioned that, but this is a.
I think when we did the mathson this, compared to current
cloud transcoding solutions,this is about a third of a cost
when you look at a three-yearperiod.
So that's what they're going tosee and all the things you can
also build on top of this,because these are features that
you can in a very nice way.
(26:22):
You can put them together tobuild some really interesting
workflows and build.
You know, you can do adinsertion and things like that.
So that is what customers aregoing to see at our booth and
it's going to be.
You know, what I'm hoping to getout of it is a conversation
where we're not just talkingabout, you know, cost is always
important and people want tokeep that cost low, but what I
(26:43):
want to talk about is how youcan actually, you know, evolve
the way you do things in asimplified manner without having
to actually put that mucheffort into it, because this is
basically something you can getit straight out of the box.
It's not a big thing for you toget going with this.
So, you know, I want to hearhow.
(27:04):
You know, what approach do ourpotential you know, customers
have to, you know, having thishybrid distribution model, and
how can they combine thesethings in order to improve
efficiency and be cost efficientand have high service quality.
So those are the type ofconversations I want to have,
because this combined solutionwith your product and our
(27:28):
product gives the customer youknow this, it's a toolbox, it's
a toolbox and they haveeverything.
You know it's, it's, it's yeah,they can do a bunch of stuff,
and that's what I'm hoping totalk about.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, pierre, I'll let you answer, but I just want
to put an exclamation point onit.
Is true, you know, cost isfront and center.
On one hand we like to say, youknow well, it shouldn't drive
all decisions.
The reality is we know that atthe end of the day it may not
literally drive a decision,because something can be
(28:04):
inexpensive but if it doesn'twork, doesn't work right, isn't
reliable, then of course it'snot going to be used.
But when you can cut the costby 67%, when your OPEX goes down
greater than 50% and that's nottheoretical, that's you know.
By the way, we have some, youknow some more on the OTT, a
(28:29):
little bit more simplifiedworkflows than what you're
involved in.
The number is 80%.
Yeah, 8-0% cut in OPEX is justamazing.
But I love the point thatyou're making where not only are
we reducing costs, which in andof itself should be like where
do I sign, are we reducing costswhich in and of itself should
(28:52):
be like where do I sign, butyou're actually in some cases
bringing functionality, bringingcapability, bringing
performance that isn't evenavailable or would be even that
much more costly you know to doin sort of the traditional
architectures.
So, yeah, you know, we reallysee what you're doing as an
enabler, and that always puts asmile on our face because you
(29:17):
know it's great.
There's a lot of uses for ourproducts and for anybody's
products, right?
But it's really fun.
It's cool when you see yourproduct getting used, getting
sold and it's allowing somethingthat just wasn't possible
before you know, or costeffective, you know.
(29:38):
So that's the word enabler forme.
Pierre, you know you're goingto be there.
Presumably.
You'll be talking to a lot ofengineers.
You're going to be probablytouching base with customers who
are in the middle ofdeployments or starting
deployments.
What are you excited about?
(30:00):
What conversations do youanticipate you'll be having at
NAB?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, I think it's going to be great to see some
excitement.
You know we've been cookingsome great demos and some great
software in the lab, so hearingwhat people want to do with it
and you know where we've done agood job of sort of building the
functionality that's needed andwhere you know which areas we
(30:28):
want to.
You know, dive deeper into thiscoming year.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Awesome, Awesome.
Yeah, it's so valuable to be infront of, you know, of users,
of customers, to hear firsthandwhat they care about, what they
don't care about.
You know it's super valuable.
As an engineer, my formaleducation is computer science,
but I never actually went downthe full engineering path, so I
(30:55):
went to the dark side, as somewould say, sales and marketing.
But anyway, yeah, so that'sgreat.
Well, guys, thank you forcoming on and speaking with me.
It was a wonderful conversationand you know, if it's not clear
to the listener, we, as inNetIn, are very excited about
(31:17):
what we're doing with NetInsight, the two net companies.
You know we're very excited andwe hope you'll come see both of
us.
But definitely make sure youvisit NetInsight at NAB and I
guess, until next time, happyencoding.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
This episode of Voices of Video is brought to
you by NetInt Technologies.
If you are looking forcutting-edge video encoding
solutions, check out NetInt'sproducts at netintcom.
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