Exploring Life's Design with Aarron Walter

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Welcome to Wake Up.
Excited.
In this episode, I talk with Aaron Walter.
Aaron is the co-host of the DesignBetter and Reconsidering podcasts,
the author has several design books,including my favorite, Designing
For Emotion, and he's a writer, aconsultant, and a creative leader.
Aaron and I go way back and I have himto thank for inviting me to give my very

(00:35):
first company consulting workshop backwhen he was the UX director at MailChimp.
I hold Aaron in such high regard.
I really feel that Aaron embodies thebest attributes a designer can have.
He's thoughtful, he's nuanced andempathetic, and I think that that really
shines through in our conversation.
We discussed the never endingprocess of self-improvement,

(00:57):
the importance of curiosity.
How all research is really me search,this concept of super activities, which
I have totally adopted in my lexicon.
We talk about fire and how to thinkabout money, and we discuss a whole
bunch more around living and examinedlife and trying to be a good person.
Before we dive in, I wanted to saythat Wake up excited is a passion

(01:21):
project and is totally self-funded.
Since Aaron worked at MailChimp,and if you've ever listened to a
podcast, you've almost certainlyheard a commercial for MailChimp.
I like to think that I'mmy own MailChimp for this.
So I have online courses to helpdesigners and developers and product
teams, people making digital thingslevel up and we have courses about

(01:44):
design tokens and design systems anda whole lot more in the pipeline.
So if you want to support me, support theshow and learn some stuff along the way,
I'd really love it if you checked outour online courses bradfrost.com/courses.
Now, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Aaron Walter.

Brad Frost (02:05):
What did you wake up this morning excited about?

Aarron Walter (02:09):
I am excited about, turning the dials on my life.
Uh, which I think is the core of our, ourdiscussion today, but am in uh, a passage
of my life where I'm really reflective
what, what a better version of AaronWalter looks like, intellectually.

(02:29):
emotionally, spiritually, uh, whichsounds very, you know, woo woo, but like
what, what puts energy in my battery?
What makes me satisfied with life?
Happy is not a word that I,I normally navigate towards
because it's so ephemeral, but,

Brad Frost (02:45):
Yes.
I'm going to give you a coupleof minutes to think about it,

(03:06):
and then we'll get started.

and we have complimentary skills, the work that we're doing
on design better, that's exciting.
I'm excited every day towatch my kids grow up.
I think that's pretty cool to justsee human beings change and evolve.

Brad Frost (03:28):
Okay.
So the first thing.
Okay.

I find really interesting.

Brad Frost (03:54):
That's, that's fascinating.
That last part is interestingbecause it's like,

I,

Brad Frost (03:57):
you're interested in tweaking your own knobs, but it sounds like
there's also this, this understandingthat everyone has these knobs to tweak
people throughout history and livingpresently are they either know or
don't know that those knobs exist orthey're, they're whatever and who's,

(04:19):
kind of figured it out and how do yousort of apply that to your own life?
And how do you tweak the knobs toto your own satisfaction which which
I love that difference by the wayof satisfaction versus happiness.
I think that that's like a reallyimportant point that seems to evade

(04:40):
people a lot which is just like it'ssatisfaction is like it just like a
deeper sense of tranquility or honoror fulfillment versus this fleeting
emotion that is, that is happiness.

Yeah, that that's feels right to me.
I, I really like to read and that's kindof a big part of what I'm excited about.
Um, trying to fill a bunch of gapsof books that I never read that I
probably should have read and alsodig into some stuff that's, you
know, maybe New and interesting, but,

Brad Frost (05:17):
yeah.
What, what have you been reading?

I, lately I'm reading, uh, right now I'm reading Donkey Hoti, which
was written in, uh, published in 1605.
And so, you know, like the humanexperience, 1605, it's very different
and yet it's the same, you know, like

Brad Frost (05:34):
Futility.

The

Brad Frost (05:36):
Right.

suffering,

Brad Frost (05:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.

read Le Miserable.
And, uh, that is all about trying to finda moral code, and it gets so confusing
to one character in particular, I won'tsay because some folks may not have
read it or seen the musical or whatever,there's one character that Has such
certainty in his life that when thatgets shaken and he's no longer certain

(06:12):
about his moral code, he can't go onliving and he has to end his life.
and I I think that is fascinatingthat, you know, I too have been
asking these same questions.
Like, what does it mean to be?
person to be a a good man, a good human,a good father, a good spouse, a good,
you know, business partner, whatever.

(06:32):
people, people keep asking thesequestions and they get lost.
They get lost in it.
And so I think, know, the more Ilearn and reflect on my life, the
more I realize it's the same, it'salways, it's always been the same,
you know, I'm kind of like living,living the same human experience that

Brad Frost (06:52):
Yep.

of people have who came before me.

Brad Frost (06:55):
love that and I also think it's, it's important to note that
you're a designer I'm hearing in whatyou're saying this kind of methodical
working through this stuff, whichI think is beautiful because again,
whether explicitly or not, we allsort of are navigating that terrain.

(07:18):
And I think what's interestingis that people are seeking for
these truths that are absolute.
And I think that there's kind ofa humility that comes with the
design attitude and mentality whereit's like there's no such thing as
that and it is more of a journey.
It's about ideation.

(07:39):
It's about,

Yeah.

Brad Frost (07:41):
about sort of separating less like here's a truth versus here's
these things that tend to be more durable
concepts or things that that feel sturdyversus like the I crack the code, right?
Like, I don't know.
Do you feel do you feel like this is acode to crack like or that you can or

feel like it's a code to

Brad Frost (08:05):
yeah,

I feel like it's a quest that you never reach the end.
And I find myself I. really interestedin, uh, reshaping my, my mentality.
So I'd say, you know, in my youngeryears, uh, teens, twenties, thirties,
the way that I thought about itwas sort of, uh, of, of life.
not, not really life is like a, abig picture 'cause I don't know if I

(08:28):
was that introspective at that time.
But, you know, work and, andanything I was doing is sort
of like, it's a checklist.
Like I can get there and I can learn to dothis thing and, um, I can get this done.
Uh, I can meet this person,I can, you know, whatever.
Uh, and it's, it's, really a flawed wayof thinking, cause that's not really how.

(08:52):
Time and life unfolds in, in, inmy estimation, um, which is why
I recently, uh, a couple yearsago picked up the guitar again.
and I also started, uh, juujitsu a yearago 'cause these are two disciplines
like where you can keep at it and youcan think like, Hey, I'm really good

(09:13):
today and I've got it figured out.
And then the next day.
You can be absolutely humbledand just, it does not work out.
Uh, I've had that happen withJuujitsu multiple times where I
think, Hey, I'm getting good here.
And I beat somebody who'sof a higher rank than me.
And the next day I just get clobbered bysomeone who's of a lower rank than me.

(09:34):
And it's very humbling.
Um, so it's just more of like apursuit that, uh, you you just,
you never reach a a destination.

Brad Frost (09:43):
yeah.
And it sounds like a real.
acceptance of that.

Yeah.

Brad Frost (09:51):
Is that, is that, fair to say?
It's like there's almost like a tensionof like the pursuit of, of mastery
of, of these hobbies, of these, theseexperiences, of this like thing that
you're curious and excited about, butalso a recognition that it's like, it
isn't about perfection or it isn't aboutlike conquering a thing, but it's more

(10:15):
just the, the experience of it, right?

I think that, uh, The younger me thought that the pursuit of
mastery was like you could reach thedestination And now the older me thinks
it's a lot like Don Quixote where he'slike pursuing, this noble truth of, you
know, the, this, this honorable code andhe just, he never quite gets there and he

(10:42):
looks silly the more certain he becomes,

Brad Frost (10:45):
Yeah, yeah,

that's the way I feel about jiujitsu and their kind of
metaphors for, The human experience.

Brad Frost (10:52):
such heart agree.
Like if we were to have thisexact conversation, like
fast forward 30 years, right?
I'm sure we'll we willhave learned some stuff.
We've had some additional experiencesthat are shaped our outlooks, but
I, I have a strong suspicion thatboth still be seeking, right?

I won't, I won't be doing any jiujitsu in 30 years.
That's for sure.
I will break.

Brad Frost (11:24):
just, you can feel the, you can hear the bones snapping from here.

Maybe, maybe yoga.

Brad Frost (11:32):
But hopefully guitar, I mean, like, you know, that's,
that's, that's one of those things.
I recently watched this video of, itwas a drummer who was, I think like
102 and he's kind of at the assistedliving place and he's doing it and

That's

Brad Frost (11:50):
you could just see the neurons firing.
And when you just see that, um, II'm so fascinated by that stuff.
When you, when people talk about longevityand whenever people talk about all
of this stuff, it's, it's, you see itembodied in, uh, well, Les Paul was like

(12:14):
another, another person, like, just likethese older players, these older people
that have been pursuing this thing, havebeen going on this journey for decades.

Yeah.

Brad Frost (12:26):
But there's this, there's this real light, there's this real
connection, there's this real, there's adeeper thing there than like, Oh, that's
cute, this person's had this hobby for

Yeah.

Brad Frost (12:43):
know what I mean?
Like, there's, there'sreally something to that.

yeah, I saw, uh, Herbie Hancock, uh, perform a couple years ago
and, uh, got to meet him after the show.

Brad Frost (12:53):
Oh my god.

that was amazing.
But so for those of you who are,are not Herbie Hancock listeners,
um, he's been at this for.
Uh, what, 75 years, threequarters of a century.
he's in his eighties.
He was an anchor of MilesDavis's band for a long time.
He's done major stuff.

(13:17):
Uh, and thought, Okay, I'm gonnago see Herbie Hancock, sort of as
like a, I, I just want to, I justwanna be near that creativity.

Brad Frost (13:26):
Yeah.

But I'm sure I'm not catching him at his peak.
And I think he was 82 at thetime and he was still incredible.
He was so incredible.
Uh, and, and still learning too,like, he's playing with young people.
Uh, and that's somethingI've always admired about.
Certain creative people who are constantlystaying close to youth, uh, new ideas,

(13:54):
constantly pursuing and learning.
Those are the folks that I really admire.
That is one thing about Miles Davis.
There's a lot about his personal life notto admire, but his constant re-envisioning
of who he is and who he can be

Brad Frost (14:09):
Yeah,

staying close to new ideas.
He was very good at that,

Brad Frost (14:14):
yeah,

that, you know, people like Kirby Hancock, he learned from that
because at, in his day, he was, he was 20and he was the new idea, uh, bringing new
ideas into, uh, to Miles Davis as well.
So I, I like that.
like being close tocreativity and new ideas.
I think it's contagious.

Brad Frost (14:33):
I 100 percent agree, and I think that that's like one of the real
drivers of putting this show on is, isthat again, it's, I've experienced like
a lot of people who exhibit creativityin a lot of different realms and There's,

(14:55):
I feel like, only until recently thatthere's, above the surface level or
like outside of like the realm of
scientific literature orpsychology or whatever, have
there been sort of a few things,
that have kind of surfaced about justkind of the, the nature of creativity and

Hmm.

Brad Frost (15:18):
of these things like a Rick Rubin's book.
did you read that?
Like it's, it's

yeah,

Brad Frost (15:23):
that's a, that's a great example of it's just like, here's this
kind of, let's like pick at sure hecould punctuate some of the points.
using his musical experience, butthere's, there's a lot of stuff
behind it that is more shared.
And whenever you, um, Sir Ken Robinsonis another sort of huge inspiration of

(15:47):
mine, like the element, or it's justlike, just driving home this idea of
like, everyone has creative capacity.
So this idea of, you know, what iseveryone a designer or everyone not,
or there's, there's, there's this line.
That separates it.
And that's something that I've alwaysbeen kind of frustrated by because people
will approach me at a conference or reachout and they're like, they will imply.

(16:13):
It's like, oh yeah, you're, you'rethis and I couldn't ever or, or, you
know, there's this, this division.
I don't, I don't know if you'velike experienced that as well, but
it's like, that's, that's somethingthat I've like, I'm like, no,
no, no, we all, we all have it.
And there are lessons to learnfrom Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis

(16:35):
and really anyone else who is.
Seeking to improve and be creativeand keep your Eyes and mind open to
to to growth and and doing somethingdifferent than you were doing before and

(16:56):
that seems to be that that creativitythat's in everyone is the thing that I
feel like separates people that mightbe your age or my age that are feeling
Invigorated by things or, or interestedin things versus the people who feel
like they're, they're languishingor they're, they're, they're stuck

Yeah.

Brad Frost (17:20):
or they're just like in a routine or something.

A Couple things come to mind uh, from that.
is curiosity and the otheris uh, personal identity.
I, I think that know, the notion ofI I am or I am not a creative person.
that's a message thatwe create for ourselves.
I think that humans are tremendouslyCapable of reinvention and creating

(17:49):
new skills and exploring new territory.
Uh, if we, if we allow ourselves,we, we do that to take that path.
You have to be curious about.
well, What would it, would itbe like if I worked on something
for the next five years?
Imagine myself in thefuture in five years.

(18:11):
I. What would I be like?
How would I be different?
Um, I want to, I wanna do somethingwith fashion and and I've never.
I, I've i've never done anything likethat maybe a little like sew on a button
on a shirt in, in home ec and now youwanna custom make jeans or uh, my wife

(18:34):
got a bunch of kimonos in uh in japanuh, these vintage kimonos and she wants
to do some interesting new things withthem rethink them so you gotta build some
skills um and it's just a matter of like.
Okay, I I need to takesome sewing classes.
What are the resources out there?
Uh, and go into that curious,

Brad Frost (18:54):
Yeah.

humble as well.
I think that maybe that gets a littleoverused, but clearly, you're, you
know, if you've got no experience,you you go into it with an inherent
uh, level of humility, but.

Brad Frost (19:05):
Yeah.

Um, Allowing yourself the opportunity that
you can learn a new thing.
You can, you can try new things, whateveryour job is, your educational background.
That those are great.
That's great experiencethat you can build upon and.
you can start from scratch.
You could learn something that istotally unrelated, seemingly unrelated.

(19:29):
I'm, I'm a big believer that oneway or another, you'll find some
connection back to disciplines.
But, um, I really like that.
I am actually, I'm taking amushroom foraging class online

Brad Frost (19:41):
Nice.

Uh, I don't know anything about it, but I'm curious.
And I I try to do like somekind of a class every year.
I, I do, I do classes weekly.
You know, I mentioned guitar and, and but,um, I also try to do some other class.
Like I did a stop the bleed, whichis like a first a type of class.

Brad Frost (20:02):
Wow.
Okay.

I'm sort of curious, like, how could I be useful in
a, in a challenging situation?
I think it's great to reinvent yourselfand build yourself into something more
than what you could have imagined.

Brad Frost (20:19):
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that that's, that's amazing.
And you're embodying, I think whata lot of people, uh, would aspire to
had they not already talked themselvesout of it in their brain, right?
And that that's, it's, it's a phenomenonthat I see all the time with people.

(20:40):
So for instance, it's like,you know, I do front end code.
And I'm in a room full of designers, a lotof which have not done that type of thing.
And I will just, youknow, show them CodePen

(21:09):
or, or they, they, they basicallyjust hit this wall of like, but
I couldn't possibly, or like,I need to, to spend the week.
And I'm just like, go, go,go, go, go, go, go, right?
Like, I think that you're right inthat the curiosity helps drive things,
but there's this, opposite end of thespectrum or like that, the sort of

(21:31):
force against that is this whateverself doubt or overthinking or whatever.
And it's something that we all experience,obviously, but it's like the people who
are able to sort of compartmentalizethat or reduce that impact and allow
the curiosity to translate into action.
That's, I think, a reallyhuge, that, that's a skill.

(21:56):
unto itself.
Because I do think like a lotof people, we all have inherent
curiosity, but it's like you said,it's like the, the acting on it.
That's the differentiator right there.
And acting on it requires that,that first step, whatever that is.
So like, just here's a little textbox, you know how to write text.

(22:20):
You've been doing that for nearly allof your life, like put some words in
there and guess what pixels are cheap andyou're not going to blow up the planet
by writing it that's something thatI've been able to, to kind of, I hope,
instill in other people is this moreof a can do mentality around this stuff

(22:42):
where it's just like, again, these thingsare not reserved for people like us.
there's obviously alot of factors at play.
There's a lot of like, you know,your situation, where, where your
front, like, your environment, your,all of those things like matter.
And, and it's, it's important to recognizethat there is this really innate sense

(23:06):
of, yeah, we all have creativity.
We all have curiosity.
We all have these abilities

Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost (23:12):
to, to imagine.
And it just is like, how doyou Get people to to take those
steps to actually move forward

sometimes it's just seeing it like seeing that someone else
is doing it, seeing that it's possible.
I think another thing that holds peopleback is they think, order for me to
develop that skill or, um, learn somethingnew, uh, it's, gonna be too hard because

(23:48):
I'll be doing it on my own, but there'sso many great resources out there.
If you think about the world as aresource, whether you wanna learn
to code, you wanna learn to makecustom jeans, you wanna, learn to
build a a home using timber framinglike there are resources out there.
Uh, if you know nothing, ifyou know less than nothing,

Brad Frost (24:11):
Yeah,

can probably find someone who's teaching a class who does sort of
like a camp, online, uh, youtube videos,

Brad Frost (24:21):
that like YouTube

the

Brad Frost (24:22):
a

above.

Brad Frost (24:23):
yeah YouTube is a miracle like YouTube is an absolute miracle like
setting aside Whatever, radicalizationin its algorithms and all of that stuff.
It's like the ability, and we'vebeen doing, we do it all the time
with, with our daughter, where she'llask that question, and that kind
of has become our, like, default.

(24:44):
It's just like, oh, let's,Let's just go watch a video
of somebody doing that, right?
Uh, we're drinking almond milk in themorning in our, in our, uh, cereal.
Well, let's watch a video on howalmond milk is made or whatever.
And it's like, it's, it's just the factthat it's around and it's, and it's in

(25:04):
this, there's something about the format,I think, of video too, that like kind of.
Brings it down to earth in a way thata lot you could you know, you could
read books You could like study ityou could do that, but that kind of

both.
That's,

Brad Frost (25:18):
yeah

an unlock for me is I read a lot of books and
I'm reading books on my own.
Like Les Mis, it's huge.
And people, people call it the brick.
I I kind of want to understandit, like understand what's
the, what's the backstory.
So I use things like YouTube to give mea background on the French revolution.

(25:40):
Or to find someone who's doing like a abook group on this and they go through it
and and kind of give you some analysis.
I use chat, GPTI talk to chat GPTwhile I'm reading a book and say,
you know, give me a backgroundof what happened in the French
Revolution in the 1820s to the 1830s.

(26:00):
Uh, and, and you just get all thisstuff that gives you the context
you need to really understand it.
In a way that even if I was ina college class, I I probably
would not have gotten that level

Brad Frost (26:14):
no, that's right.

And it's just a matter of like about the resources that are at your
fingertips to, learn what you wanna learn.
And, you know, to go back to your originalquestion, what gets you up in the morning?
It's learning.
It's just, man, I lovelearning new things.
And I just like the more that I learn, themore I see the cross connection between

(26:36):
All all the different topics, the skills,

Brad Frost (26:38):
Yeah.

the, you know, human experience.

Brad Frost (26:42):
Yeah,

and that gives me a fuller understanding of my life

Brad Frost (26:46):
that's as beautiful and I think what's also worth pointing
out about it is that that Yourunique experience, right, like
you are the only Aaron Walter who,

that we know of.

Brad Frost (27:02):
but, but who, who hosts these specific podcasts about these
specific things and have had thesespecific conversations and have
also read these specific books.
And I think that that's the thingthat's another thing that I encounter
and I'm sure you've encounteredthis as well, where people go,
Oh, well, I couldn't possibly.
Blog about this or share about thisor write about this or pursue this

(27:25):
because here's this other person Who'sdone this and it's like no, no, you
don't understand You're coming at thiswith your unique perspective, like
literally one of a kind, like FredRogers is like Pittsburgh superhero.
Right?
And it's like, wheneverit's like, you are special.

(27:47):
Like, there's only one of you.
It's like, man, I have internalized that.
And it's like, He's right,he's absolutely right.
There's only one person who've walked,and read, and absorbed, and have watched
these specific videos, and whatever,and that shapes your specific human

(28:07):
experience, but that also shapes you.
allows you and you do a great job atthis at at sort of being able to share
that experience outward to the benefitof others and I think that that's
like that's so cool because like youcould just be doing it and keeping it
all to yourself but there's somethingreally magical in that understanding

(28:31):
that like your unique human experiencecan have an impact on others.
And it has this, this exponentialeffect, which is the more people that are
doing that learning, sharing, growing,helping, it's this upward spiral that

(28:53):
you don't get if you're just kind ofAgain, you could just be heading a
book and, and, and, and stay there.
And that's, and not saying thatthat's like wrong, but there's this,
there's this extra dimension thatI feel like you've lived for a long
time, which is this like really.

(29:14):
Deep understanding that by way of sharingwhat you're learning, by way of, of
taking these things in, but then kindof packaging them up for others to, to
hold them up for others to, to pick at.
Selfishly, I'm sure it helpsyou in your understanding of Oh,

I'm gonna share with you some wisdom that I learned
from, uh, this guy, Dan Pink, who'swritten a bunch of great books.
He used to write, uh,speeches for Al Gore.
Uh, he wrote a great book aboutregret, the power of regret.
And I asked him, whydid you write this book?
And he said, be honest,all research is me search.

Brad Frost (30:00):
yeah.

uh, I find that.
You know, the design, better podcast andreconsidering podcasts, they're different
topics, but there is some commonality.
I am curious about these topicsand I am selfishly trying to teach
myself learn from other people.
And by turning that into a podcastand kind of a. Media platform.

(30:24):
It gives me the structure and theaccountability to continue to learn.
So, uh, yeah, like it's, it is good foreveryone and I do want to share, but.
You know, I, I come to itwith selfish intentions.
I, I
just wanna, I

Brad Frost (30:38):
Yeah.

to all the people and learn as much as I can from them.

Brad Frost (30:43):
That's beautiful.
But like, but that's the,that's the thing though.
It's like, it's, thisisn't a zero sum game.
These things are not mutually exclusive.
And I think that that's like, that'sone of the, the biggest lessons I feel
like I've learned over the years hasbeen that I just, how few things are

(31:04):
Zero sum or it's either this or that,and that there's all of these things
that you can design to be these win winsituations or win win win win win win
win win situations where it's like, itreally Once you realize that, that, oh

(31:26):
yeah, I could be like immensely selfishand, and do this, but at the same time
I'm going to structure it in a way thateverybody else is going to be able to sort
of catch the wake of that selfishness.
And I'm going to put it out thereand that's going to, yes, help you
individually grow, but it's alsogoing to sort of start people's own

(31:46):
curiosity and whatever it's again,it's that, it's that upward spiral.
And I think that that's, It'samazing because you're able to
realize that there's no psychologicaldisconnect because we tend to think
of selfishness as a, an attributeto, you know, avoid, we tend to think

(32:07):
of it as this negative thing, right?
But once you realize you're like, well,of course, you're, you're taking care
of yourself and you're living yourown human experience, and that's it.
But to not like focus thereat the expense of others.
And that's like, I think sort of somethingthat I really want to pick at on this,
on this podcast, because it's like thisphenomenon that we're talking about.

(32:31):
It was like, there's, there's the, theself growth, there's a self understanding,
the self awareness, the, the, all ofthat stuff that we've been talking about.
But then there's alsothis responsibility to.
The people in our lives are thesesort of concentric circles, right?
There's, there's you,there's your nuclear family.

(32:52):
There's, there's your,your local community.
There's, you know, the design community.
And so you, you kind of like, we havethese responsibilities to the people in
our lives are the communities we operatein the environments we operating in and
the world at large, and there tends to be.

(33:15):
And I don't know if you've experiencedthis and I'd like love to get your,
your take on it, but it's justlike wrestling with that balance
of I'm taking care of myself.
I am, yeah, my head's in a book and I'm,I'm thoroughly enjoying this endeavor.
when bombs are falling, or when, when,you know, the state of the world is,

(33:38):
is in this extremely unhealthy place.
And so it's sort of like, there'ssomething there that what we were just
talking about, about that kind of,there's the self, there's others, and
there's sure these like selfish things.
That also kind of have like apositive impact on others if
you, if you, if you share them.

(33:59):
Right.
I, I don't know.
Like I covered a lot of things there.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I have a, I, I have a a way that I think about this.
These are, um, called super activities.
So there are activities that youcan do that might you, uh, mentally,
spiritually I. and, you know,nourish your relationships and
there are activities that can domore than one thing simultaneously.

(34:26):
Um, I'll give you a couple examples.
So I started Juujitsu Because my youngestson dropped out and we had a contract.
And so I thought, okay, gonna goahead and take over that contract and
get my older son who is 14 and at apoint in his life where he has, he's

(34:47):
got a lot of, uh, energy that needsto be channeled in a positive way.

Brad Frost (34:51):
right?

He's got a

Brad Frost (34:53):
Mm-hmm

testosterone.
And so I want to, I wanna make sure thathe's building skills and also learning.
and, there's some danger to that.
And that's part of growing up is beingable to operate within a more nuanced set
of, uh, constraints And so we, we fighteach other on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Brad Frost (35:17):
Amazing.

uh, so he's beating me up and I'm beating him up and we're
learning all kinds of choke holdsand, uh, boxing and stuff like that.
And it's super fun.
It's super fun together 'cause it isdone safely, but we learn a skill.
So we're nourishing our, our intellect.

Brad Frost (35:34):
Yeah.

uh, I I, when you have a teenager, you rarely get to hug them.
I get to hug him prettyregularly in a very tight way
when we're fighting.
Um.
and, and we get to spend thistime together and have this
kind of shared experience.
That's a super activity.
I, I

Brad Frost (35:55):
beautiful.

boxes.
I,

Brad Frost (35:57):
Beautiful.

I feel like there's also a spiritual component to that as well.
Uh, for a while I gave my wifesuch a hard time because she goes
to this gym that is like a, it'skinda like an old person's gym.
That's part of like ahospital rehabilitation thing

Brad Frost (36:13):
Yeah.

and it's out of the way.
So she's gotta drive all the waythere, take her classes, you know,
work out and then drive home.
So it kind of occupies the entire morning.

Brad Frost (36:24):
Silence.
Silence.

that she brings to these classes.
They give each other gifts that, you

Brad Frost (36:42):
Silence.
Silence.

it's good

Brad Frost (36:58):
Um, Silence.
Silence.

(37:25):
Silence.

together.
Um,

Brad Frost (37:37):
Silence.

do a lot of cooking for my mother-in-law who's wrestled
with some illness and that makesher feel better and be healthier.
and when I can be ofservice, that is good for me.
I, That's like, it's a gift for me thatI get to do that for somebody else.
I tell my, I tell my kids all thetime, you know, a good man puts more

(38:00):
value into the world than he extracts.
And that doesn't have to be gendered.
It's a good person puts

Brad Frost (38:05):
Sure, yeah,

than they extract.
and thinking about that, think can,can be a good framework for life.
What can I do?
That's providing value for others.
I'm gonna get value out of that as well.
When

Brad Frost (38:18):
Yeah.

service mindset.

Brad Frost (38:20):
And that's just it.
It's like, that's that last partis the thing that like, it seems
obvious and, and experientially itis obvious as like, oh yeah, I see
you smile and I'm smiling right back.
And there's a lot of, you know, scienceto back that up, but yet at the same

(38:41):
time, this, this kind of prevalent.
Attitude, at least in America, forsure, is this like, this has to be
this competition or this has to be atat the expense of something else and
like, just fundamentally reject thatbut but coming back to what you're
saying, I think that you brought up somelike really important things in here.

(39:05):
So you're talking about, I lovethis idea of super activities.
I couldn't help but think theway that Society is structured.
We're, we're kind of in this, um,in the phase of life where, you
know, our daughter's almost seven.
So it's like she's startingto get into activities.
A lot of the people around us area little further along that road.

(39:30):
And you just see what this kind of, um,it's, it's kind of like a relentless.
But, like, it's, it's the oppositeof what you're talking about
with these super activities.
It's like, it's this, like, relentless,one dimensional things, where it's
just, like, minivan prison, right?
Like, it's, like, on my road, like, I, Iwatch The one family and you know, they're

(39:52):
they're committed to it and but andfrankly, they have four kids So that but
they're just constantly I'm sure that theyyou know, they would have some version
of like how this is a super activity forthem but a lot I see a lot of the people
in my life family members and so onreally like There's a lot of misery there

(40:14):
because it's not these activities, eventhough they technically like could have
the potential to be these super activity.
They are, they're like pursued, andalmost like that the macro level design
of the thing just seems to be justso narrowly focused, and it's so this

(40:39):
compartmentalization of a lot of thedifferent facets of life and society,
the really frustrating and whenever.
All you need to do is just like, whatever,read any book or look at any documentary
or anything about like healthy societies.
And they're the ones that are ableto blend, you know, the Tai Chi's of

(40:59):
the world where it's, yeah, you goto the park and you're out in nature
and you're with your peers and you'redoing these healthy activities.
It's like, these are no brainers,

Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost (41:09):
whatever reason, the phenomenon I see.
In my little world, at least, is,
here's this chunked out, segmentedthings that are being like, this
is, this is this, and this is forthis person only, and this is only
doing these things, or attackingthese dimensions of life, whether
it's physilect, you know, whatever.

(41:32):
And it's like, it's, we'reselling ourselves short!
Right?
Like, these things You don'teven need to really do much to
change the structure of them.
It's, it's more an attitudethan it is anything else.
I, I love that.
What, what you said about you and yourson and how you're You really, you
have this awareness of the multifacetedthings that you get out of this shared

(41:57):
activity together, which is beautiful.
And then I contrast that with the peoplethat I see running in the minivans
that just seem absolutely miserable.
And I'm sure that there's, there's,there's some truth there and
it's not an all or nothing thing.
But like open yourself up to just thegift that is this like time together

(42:18):
and whatever, you know, anyways.

I, I think we're, you know, we're, we're super social animals
and, I, just think, I think it's soamazing how humans will just fall in line.
even, you know, self-aware peoplejust kind of fall in line to
the social constructs of, iswhat other people are doing.
You know, if I'm an 8-year-old inschool and I see that my friends

(42:42):
are all doing travel soccer and youknow, I want to go be part of that.
I, I can't blame an8-year-old kid for that.
They want to go do it.
but a parent has to consent andconsider what is the, the cost of this.
I think that there's just expandingout from the micro universe of, you

(43:04):
know, parents with young children.
Um, there's so much of our culture,our workforce, our economy, our
life, that is kind of the matrixof I, never considered that.
Life could operate in a different way,in a way that bends more towards my

(43:26):
interests, my needs, uh, my, my goals

Brad Frost (43:31):
That's.

those who are kind of curious about it could say,
okay, what's the cost benefitanalysis here on if my kid.
My eighth grader does travel volleyball

Brad Frost (43:43):
Yeah.

and they're gonna be, we're gonna be on the road.
We're gonna have to pay forflights in some circumstances,

Brad Frost (43:51):
Yep.

we're gonna be gone all weekend.
The younger siblings, other siblings,what's the cost that is paid for

Brad Frost (43:59):
hmm.

and relationship there.
The cost, you know, for a,a kid who's doing the same
movement over and over again.
My, My nieces have had multiplesurgeries from that stuff.
because they just, you know,do it over and over again.
They

Brad Frost (44:15):
Sure.

quickly, know, somebody like Jerry Rice, who's a hall of
fame, wide receiver for San Francisco49 ERs didn't play football until
he was a sophomore in high school.
so like the specialization soearly, it, it has a lot of costs.
think the lesson I take fromit is, you make decisions that.

(44:38):
Bends your, your, your timeand your energy investment
towards the payoff that you want

Brad Frost (44:44):
Yeah,

of the, the, the thing that you think you're supposed to do,

Brad Frost (44:49):
I'd really like to use it.
Since you just said pay off an investment,uh, this, this brings, uh, like, I,
I, I definitely wanted to like, gethere in our conversation, but I think
that, like, one of the things withall of this, as well as, yeah, just
whatever kids activities in general,but also like what we do with our time.

(45:13):
And life energy is likethere's money, right?
And so, like, I think, and evenback to what we were sort of
talking about, it's like, oh, yeah.
Curiosity or pursuing these hobbies,it's just the backdrop to all of that.
Is, is money, we,

the, the, the opportunity, the decision making, if you are
stuck on a treadmill where you've,you've got to just continue to make
a certain amount of money, none ofthat curiosity talk decision making.
Really, like,

Brad Frost (45:45):
yeah,

or makes sense.

Brad Frost (45:47):
yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and that seems to be it, and,
and it's a phenomenon that I've, I'veexperienced wherever people are like, oh,
you're like doing these, like, Kind ofweird things and I'm not entirely sure
how you actually earn money or whateverBut like but I guess what I'd love to to

(46:08):
get at here and and this is so we've hadconversations in the past So we're both.
Um aware and and practitioners of ofthis notion called fire which is called
financial independence retire early Andthere's kind of a whole ethos around it.
There's a whole bunchof literature around it.

(46:28):
There's a whole bunch of podcasts.
There's a whole bunch of books.
There's a whole bunchof like a lot of things.
And I think I'm really excited totalk to you about your experience of
it because kind of being outside ofthat apparatus, which kind of, you
know, just like how design designershave a culture and we have like our

(46:49):
little like ecosystem or bubble.
I feel like you're kind of.
Well, we're both kind of outside ofthat realm, but at the same time, I
feel like I've been pursuing this in oursort of various stages of our journey.
Around relationship with money, howwe see it and, and how that's maybe

(47:12):
unlocked some of this, this kind ofhigher level self actualization that
you've been able to pursue in largepart because you've, you've positioned
things properly with respect to money.
So, Aaron, what are your thoughts on money

I think of money as a tool.
ideally, I would, I want money to buyfreedom and joy, opportunities for growth.
I am a realist, you know, I, I grew up,uh, in a family where we were always sort
of to trying to get by, um, wasn't alwayseasy and there were some times where it

(47:55):
was a little, little dodgy there, but inthe grand scheme of things, I, you know,
I'd say I'm a very fortunate person andI've been super lucky in my life of being
in the right place at the right time,born at the dawn of computers and kind
of born into an economy that was gonnasupport my and interests and so forth.

(48:17):
But, I will say that if we canbe intentional and realist about
money what things are bring value.
to our life and, I value is somethinglike we could deconstruct that word,
but does it, create, uh, one of thosethings I mentioned, does it create an

(48:39):
opportunity to learn, you know, is thata class or is that, uh, weeks off so you
could just go practice sewing or, um,something like that, we think about money
that way versus, uh, our, our wants, ourmomentary wants, I want a cup of coffee.
I want to go out to dinner cause I don'tfeel like making dinner tonight, man.

(49:01):
That's me.
I, I, I am that person as well, Butif you can of automate that and think
about yourself 30 years down theroad, uh, and start investing early.
Man, that is huge.
If you can start investingin your early twenties.
Even a small amount like you're putting50 bucks into, uh, you know, you got a

(49:25):
Schwab account and you get, uh, like atotal stock market index fund that you're
just putting 50 bucks in here or there.
When someone gives you a Christmasgift, a birthday gift of some
money, that's where it goes.
And you let that grow.
It compounds and compound interestas Ben Franklin has said is one
of the most, uh, amazing, uh,scientific phenomenon on the planet.

(49:49):
Uh, it, it is, it's really cool 'causeit grows and what you want to shift
from is trading your time for moneyand having your money make money for
you it's really kind of like a mind.
messes with your mind to think thatway, that, if you've invested, well, you
could be on vacation, spent a bunch ofmoney on a really nice vacation and you

(50:13):
could have made more than the cost ofyour vacation while you're vacationing
because the stock market went up and, youknow, you, you had some success there.
you don't have to be supersmart, super, um, nerdy about it.
You can, there's a tonof great books out there.

(50:34):
and, and maybe we could talk aboutsome of those books that people could
read and put those in show notes.
But,

Brad Frost (50:38):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.

you need to be transferring that.
Out into some total stock market index.
So you don't have a large chunk ofyour personal wealth in a single place.
Cause if that company starts tolose value, you're in trouble.
You're in, you're in big trouble.
Getting good at money isan essential skill at life.

(51:11):
Uh, you don't have to be a hedgefund manager, but you do have
to know how to invest and how tosystematically transition from
trading your time for money.
Because there's gonna come a timein your life where you don't want
to do that, someone wants you todo something you don't want to do.
And you want to have enough fu money.

(51:32):
That is, I want you to do this thingthat you really goes against your, your
morals, your values, your interests.
And you wanna be able tosay Fu I'm not gonna do it.
I want to go over

Brad Frost (51:43):
Yeah,

I wanna take six months.
Even it's like, takes sixmonths to find a new job.
That's fu money.
That's not like an insane amount ofmoney, but it is fu money that gives
you the time and space to reconsider.
that is what everybodyshould and can build.
if they're smart about this.

Brad Frost (52:02):
no, that's, that's great.
There's, I feel like there's so muchgreat advice locked up into that.
coming back to, I think thatI really like how you led it.
Money is a tool, and that toolcan be pointed at things and
utilized to accomplish things.

(52:26):
I think that that, that forme really sort of shifted.
My relationship with money is like onceI started to to realize that because
up until That was was kind of presentedto me it was You know, well, I'm, I'm

(52:46):
working, I, I know I, I want to make asmuch money as possible because like you,
it's like I, I grew up, you know, in, ina certain house with, you know, punctuated
by layoffs and all sorts of stuff.
So there's, there's the, the scarcitymindset that kind of comes with that.
And so it's just like, well, obviouslyI'm going to go and I'm going to try

(53:11):
to make as much as I can without givingit too much like extra thought around
all like well What's all this for?
Like what why exactly am I doing this?
I know it's a good idea

oh, I think that's, that's a great question, a great
question, right, right there.
What's money for?
What is

Brad Frost (53:32):
Yeah,

work is for generating money, but work is also for other things.
It's for learning.
It's for connection.
It's for feeling useful.

Brad Frost (53:41):
yeah,

a super activity.
It

Brad Frost (53:43):
yeah

be.
And what is money for?
Uh, it's for protection.
it is for opportunity it's for growth.
it is for a few things, but, anotherthing that people get very confused by is.
having outward signs of wealth uh,you know, consumption, consumption

(54:04):
is wealth, consumption is not wealth.
you know, you hear people say this, thisphrase, like how can they afford it?
Chances are they can't afford it.
You

Brad Frost (54:15):
Very true.

credit.
They're paying a mortgage.
They're paying a note.
They're paying, you know, some,some bill on a regular basis.
And they are consuming.
You don't want consumptionto drive your life.
You want to have a solid foundation.
Um, and when you do have that solidfoundation and you've got enough FU money

(54:37):
and you've got runway and you're clearon your values and you've got a healthy
relationship to money and how you use it

Brad Frost (54:44):
Yeah

achieving that satisfaction and that safety in your life.
Hey, and you want toconsume and buy a thing.
okay.
But also be aware of, like,what things bring you joy.
So you and me, I think we'd probablyagree, like, buying a good instrument,
it brings me joy, 'cause it's athing that brings me growth, and
I'll have it throughout my entirelife, and I'll give it to my kids.

Brad Frost (55:07):
Yeah

a good spend.
For me, like, a car I think of itmore as like taking it from point
A to point B. If you buy somethingbrand new, it loses value right away.
A car to me, just, I feel, I feel bad.
Like I'm losing money on that thing.
And I've tried buying somethingthat felt really cool.

(55:29):
and it just stressed me out.
I'd rather have a cheappickup that I can do stuff.

Brad Frost (55:35):
Yeah.

dings it, I'm like, yeah, it's all right.

Brad Frost (55:38):
Yep.
And I
to, to reflect on that.
And you, you said it earlier.
It's like the, the, youknow, what are your values?
And it's like, that needs to come first.
Because a lot of times it's, again,it's just that kind of blind, just

(55:58):
kind of myopic or shallow modeof, well, I got to earn money.
And without a value system to,to really sort of undergird that
endeavor, you can find yourself inweird territory real quick, right?
And, and that, and that also translatesto, yeah, you just, here's the Joneses,

(56:20):
and you're, you're buying the same thingsbecause you see everybody else doing that.
And I feel like having that solid senseof self, a solid value system, then.
Affords the idea of in coupling thatvalue system with money as a tool, you
then have this really nice equationof being able to use money to pursue

(56:48):
things that, you know, uh, embodyand, and advance your, your values.

And

Brad Frost (56:56):
Yeah.

a simple way to do this is, um, if you can articulate your values,
um, maybe your values are around, andlearning and growth, for example, create
a budget those are your budget buckets.
So you align your money toyour values, uh, in that way.

(57:21):
So when you say like, I've got150 this month for learning, got
a hundred dollars for adventure.
Or we're gonna start saving monthlyfor one big adventure every year.
And that's gonna give usgrowth learning and family time
or a couple time, whatever.

(57:42):
Um, that's a great way to do itwhere you can start to articulate it.
And then you've got the stuff that'slike life's operating system of, I
gotta pay for my cell phone bill.
I've gotta pay forelectricity, et cetera, but

Brad Frost (57:56):
Yeah.

kind of a different type of bucket than This growth stuff.

Brad Frost (58:01):
I. Right.
Right.

bring me joy or get me closer to my life's goals?
Probably not.

Brad Frost (58:17):
I love that.
It's like you're making the valuesystem explicit and it's that becomes
like any good sort of design endeavor.
It's like, here's thislike kind of measurable.
It's tangible.
You could see it.
You could work towards it.
You could you could sort ofevaluate how you're doing, getting,

(58:37):
are we close or are we far away?
It gives you kind of a lens into it.
That's, that's great.

it can

Brad Frost (58:44):
yeah, go

you freedom too there, uh, in ways that we might not expect.
I, at one point was scrutinizingmy spending on audio books.
I really, like, I just love audio books.
I was like, man, I'm spendingthis subscription over here.
I have two subscriptions for audiobooks Iwas going through so many and I couldn't

(59:08):
get 'em all at the library so and Ithought well this is actually a good
way to spend my money because it alignswith my values so I'm okay with that

Brad Frost (59:18):
ahead.
Beautiful.

money over here on clothing or I'll spend less money

Brad Frost (59:23):
Yeah,

I don't know.
Restaurants.

Brad Frost (59:26):
yeah,

you know, one of those things that can get some value outta that.
That's great.
And that can align to your valuesystem to a certain degree.
But it is one of those things that it's anexpense that, it doesn't pay back a ton.

Brad Frost (59:38):
so yesterday I, um, met with these people, never met before,
but, uh, connected and played musicwith them, which was really fun.
They have a band and, I went into thishouse in, in Pittsburgh, which is like
a total Pittsburgh house, but he, he's abit younger, really kinetic guy, raccoons

(01:00:03):
living in the attic water water damagelike throughout the practice space and
stuff, but it was great like just justreal stuff a guy clearly loves music and
We, we jammed for a while and then we kindof went in to a living room to listen to
a record and he had this like big recordcollection and he was talking about

(01:00:27):
how he went to a show the prior nightat this, this cool space that is like
kind of part venue, part record store.
It's like, man, he's like, I, it'slike, I spent 60 on these records.
but then for the next like half hour,I just watched this guy as he was
lighting up going through the albumart and reading the liner notes and

(01:00:50):
connecting the dots of this drummerplayed on this and also played over
here on this other record that he had.
And, but he, he kind of was repeatingthis, Oh God, this was like 60 bucks.
And, you know, dudes living ina, in a place where, you know, 60
bucks could be spent, you know,repairing the roof or whatever.

(01:01:14):
But at the same time, I'm like, Dude,that seems like money very well spent.
Like you, you seem to This, thisgives you a lot of life, right?
Like this is not just like aconspicuous consumption and sure.
Like there's a, there's a sweetspot or there's a balance.
So you want to be responsible withit, but it's like material pursuit

(01:01:36):
is, is connecting with what I sawpretty clearly is like this core.
value that he has, whichis this deep love of music.
So it's like, yeah, thatseems like money well spent.
It seems like money well spent.
Well,

Aarron Walter (01:01:52):
doesn't destroy the record collection or

Brad Frost (01:01:54):
right.

the raccoons eat the records, then you not

This is true.
This is true.
Yeah.

and.
fix the roof.

maybe like pulling all of this together.
Right.
It's like, we've covered like, There,there's curiosity, there's pursuit,
there's, there's creativity, there's,there's being sort of intentional
and tweaking knobs and, and pursuingthese, these super activities that
allow you to get fulfillment outof multiple dimensions out of life.

(01:02:26):
And like that all needsto be paid for, right?
And having really sortof prioritizing that,
that relationship with money, settingup some solid foundations don't require,
like you said, like you don't have tobecome a hedge fund manager, like a

(01:02:48):
lot of times it's just like kind oflike working with a good professional.
Get it, get things set up, get someclarity, get your head around, like
what your actual operating expenses are.
That for me was likea huge freeing moment.
Like you were saying,there's the cell phone bill.
There's the utility bills.
Like, do you actually know whatyou're like general monthly?

(01:03:11):
Expenditures are and that gives you a goodidea of like how much you need to earn
in order to support that lifestyle andit took me a long time to arrive at that.
It was like a multi year processof sort of chipping away at it.
But once I had it, thenI could start going.
Okay.

(01:03:31):
I know that life costs this much moneyevery year, which means that that's
how much, that's how hard I need towork every year in order to live life.
And that was tremendously freeing.
It got me out of that, like, I justneed to go, I need to earn as much
as possible, and I need to do allthese things, and I'm sacrificing my

(01:03:53):
well being, other aspects of my life.
Because I, I just feel that, bornfrom that scarcity mindset of,
of just how I was raised, and Ithink a lot of people are in that
position, not having that clarity.
Being able to articulate this stuff,getting your hands around it is
such an important thing because itallows you to, to, to, yeah, yeah.

(01:04:20):
And then from there, then youcould start being deliberate.
Like you said, like, it's likethose, those buckets and stuff.
It's like a, a great, I think thatthat's like a fantastic exercise.
And I think like, like the, the firststep in the journey is a lot of times
just like kind of, yeah, rounding.

(01:04:41):
rounding things up and just gettingyour heads around things and there's
obviously kind of just that exercise ingeneral often brings to life It's like
oh, yeah, here's these weird subscriptionsor these things that keep popping up
that I could probably just nuke andand Not miss him at all or whatever.

(01:05:01):
So, so there's kind of like immediatevalue that comes from it, but
there's like that exercise is thefirst step in this sort of broader.

yeah, I think there's a theme in each of the topics we've
covered here, which is the examinedlife, the idea of looking at one's
life carefully, every aspect it.
Not taking it for granted, askingquestions like what does it cost to
live the way that I, I live or I wantto live and are there compromises

(01:05:32):
or ways I can turn the dials here?
Um, how shall I live?
What are my values?
What are, what are thingsare most important?
And then how can I integrate that into?
My budget, my day-to-daydecisions, my long-term thinking,
um, what does it mean to live?
What, what does it mean to be a humanand what is the human experience?

(01:05:53):
And how do I think about my life,uh, on a greater continuum other
than just today or this year or theseyears that I've been on this planet?
all these are different stages of.
curious, discovering new things,and, um, understanding how all this
stuff fits together, 'cause it does.

yeah, I love it.
I love it.
You brought up something rightthere as you're recapping it, that
I think is a really important thing.
That is, that is one of the otherthings that I wanted to talk to you
about because I think that it was.
It was through you that I firstheard the terms seasons of life,

Yeah,

and I don't know where that came from, but I internalized that in
my own life, and as I've kind of likeexperienced some pretty dramatic chapters
or seasons of my life, everything youjust said, kind of recapping that, it's
so important to say, Hey, This, all ofthose things, all of those questions

(01:07:04):
need to be re evaluated, all the time.
All the time, because your prioritieschange on the daily, but certainly
like year over year, certainly aslike big milestones happen, or like,
you know, you have a kid, you lose aparent, you lose a job, you, whatever,
it's like, all of those scenes.

(01:07:26):
Right?
Require that, that revisitingof all of these things and
that's the journey, right?
Like that's the journey that we'reall on and it's kind of coming back
to that like Can we arrive at these?
Truths or answers to these questions theanswer is no because time marches on the

(01:07:47):
terrain shifts from underneath us Andour time, our priorities, our values,
how we spend our money, et cetera, etcetera, I'll need to change with that and.

the

And it's,

us.

a hundred percent.
So, so it's like, it's likeall of those things that we've
talked about are, are important.
And then there's this other axisthat is time, which, which says like
compartmentalize all of that and, andplot it along the, the, the time axis.

Yeah, humans are not very good at time continuity.
You sort of see life right now andthink, this is the way it's always been.
actually it was different because,you know, I was different and
the circumstances were different10 years, ago, 20 years ago,
a hundred years ago, how.
People lived.
It's very different.

(01:08:45):
There's, there's a differentcontinuity, but seasons of life to be
able to think forward and backwardsin your life, um, is really great.
And, and I, there's an exercise we can dowhere we can look back and say, what was
the theme of these decades of my life?
Is there a theme of what kind oftransformations I went through?

(01:09:06):
What kinds of things I learned,what things I struggled with?
Um, and then how did that change?
From decade to decade and thenas you approach a new decade to
look forward and say, here's whatI want this decade to be about.
This is what I wanna focus on.
But, uh, there's there's broader,you know, seasons are multiple

(01:09:28):
decades where, you know, there'sa pa passage of your life where
you're in the building of skills.
of foundations like maybe you know you're,you're you're getting a house you're uh,
finding your, your partner you're maybebuilding a family and you're building
a career and trying to build that nestegg this this is all like foundational

(01:09:51):
stuff and then there's this season where.
Your kids start to grow up andbe a little bit more autonomous
and they're, this, maybe you'rethinking about things differently.
Maybe you're thinking about whatdo I really need at this point?
What does it mean?
What's my relationship with work?
Is that different?
Do I work less?
Do I work?
uh, You know, in a totally differentcareer, it's a very typical thing.

(01:10:15):
It's, uh, common for in the UnitedStates for adults to experience three
distinct passages of their career.
It is normal to depart onething and go somewhere else.
And you can do that.
That's okay.
That's, that's perfectly fine to do.
thinking about these seasons, uh.
it relates to your money, the foundationsof your life, uh, your career, uh,

(01:10:39):
your interests and your values.
Um, if we can expandour perspective beyond
today,

Yeah,

can, we can live a better life.

but but to bring it to bring that perspective into the present and
to cultivate presence like that, I thinkthat that's everything you just said is
true and but to do that to point to thepresent moment where you're in your car
With your 14 year old headed to jiu jitsuand you're able to acknowledge That like

(01:11:16):
this is a gift because one day he won'tbe in the car with me because he'll be it

a half years.

Yeah,

and a half years.
So the

right.

about what trips we want to go on, what skills
I want for him to build because

Yeah

the day when he leaves the house.

Mm hmm.

own.
And what does he need?
What has to be in his bag of skills

Yeah.

uh, an autonomous human being who's safe and, you know, can,

Yeah.

successful.
I've gotta consciously investand support my children right now
because I gotta plan for that day.

but all all the while I think it's like the so yes to all of
that, but then there's like also likea I don't know if you experienced that
phenomenon where like, And this is,you know, where people get anxiety from
is like worry for like the future orwhatever It's like if you do that too much
you lose You lose the presence, right?

(01:12:17):
And, and, to be able to do that, that's,that's just good planning, that's good,
like, whatever, you're, you're, you'resort of building this stuff, but, like,
to really recognize that these momentswe have are finite, our lives are finite,

That's right.

of life, these, the, the time with the people in our life is all finite.
If you're able to translate that intopresence and gratitude, then there it
is, like to really realize that thatit's like, this is a special moment.
It's not going to happen again.

(01:12:52):
You know, hopefully we have lots andlots of moments with, you know, our, you
know, kids and the people in our lives,but like, know that that finite moment.
is, is
like, just be present for it.
And, and I think that like what everythingthat we've talked about, I think are,

(01:13:15):
are sort of can be then kind of funneledinto this just very deliberate exercise.
That is just like kind of showing up andbeing present and having, having a real
sense of understanding that of like whatthis all is, which is like, oh, yeah,

(01:13:35):
we're here, we're together and we knowthat that this is a good thing and what
a gift it is that we're able to spendthis time together, have these kinds of
conversations, do these kinds of things.
And not be too infatuated with, withwhat happened before, what's to come,
to consider all of that, and, and pointit, point both of those things, right,

(01:14:00):
the past and the future, like, into thepresent moment, and, and to, you kind
of supercharge it, like, that's, that'show I see it, at least, um, people have
said it a lot smarter than I just did,but it's like, there, there is a way
to just, like, kind of cultivate thepresence and the gratitude Based on all
of these other, there's all these like,just the, everything you're describing,

(01:14:22):
like, the, the systems and just likeour models and, and value systems and
like all of that sort of like deliberatework provides this foundation for you
to ultimately like, Live in the momentand be present and be grateful for
this like awareness you have that thatit's like, oh, yeah Like here's my life

(01:14:46):
and here's where I'm at and here's thepeople in it and just be able to enjoy it

When you can think forward and see how life's probably
gonna change pretty Just a few years,I. uh, you know, down the road.
It definitely brings you into the present

Yeah,

and helps you like clarify what's important.

yeah.
Yeah.

will do that.
But I think that, you know, there'sother things in life, whether

Yeah.

or not, that you, you can get that as well.

Yeah, but it but it just it requires that that introspection and
I think that that that might be likea You know, maybe a good like parting
note for everybody is, is just like,it's like, what, what are those things?
Like, what are, what are your kindof bedrock kind of core values?
And like, how are you thinking about,you know, your life as you live

(01:15:47):
it and are intending to live it?
And how could you, you kind of use thatto guide your, your day to day life
while building towards something that.
Feels good that you could fastforward a couple of decades and go.
Yeah, I'm glad I glad I lived my lifelike that versus Versus the alternative.

(01:16:10):
Yeah

it's hard to be a human.
We're, we're all

It is

something

it is but but it but I feel like uh feel like we cracked
the code here in this conversation.
This is good We did it.
We're all done

at the we cracked it, but we at

But, but it's like, I think it's like, yeah, the
code isn't meant to be cracked.
Right.
I think that, I think that, that,that that's the cracking of the
code is, is understanding thatit's, it's not, not crackable.
Thank you so much for, for taking thetime to, to talk about this, this is like.
This is like a dream come true for me.
So thank you very much for having this.

(01:16:44):
This is like, these are exactly thekinds of conversations I think need
to be happening and often aren't.
So, so I really appreciateyou, uh, you doing that.
couple things before we go.
where could people find you andwhat, what do you want to sort
of point people towards that,that's exciting and good for you?

well, my podcasts are the things that are kind of the center
of my universe these days, so designbetter podcast.com And reconsidering.org
reconsidering explores, how to build alife while making a living and kind of
what, what the good life looks like.
Um, so that seems very adjacentto our conversation today.

(01:17:28):
Design better is about the creativeprocess and, um, finding inspiration,
finding out how to be a, a betterdesigner, uh, and a creative thinker.
So places to learn more about me.

Beautiful.
And then the last thing is, uh,what is, uh, some music that you
want more people to know about?

I am a big fan of Kamasi Washington, and we had him as
a guest on Design Better recently.
uh, I love his album, TheEpic, which came out in 2017.
But, uh, he has a new one.
Kamasi Washington's new album is calledFearless Movement and it is great.

(01:18:14):
So if you're not familiar withhim, he, uh, He plays saxophone.
He plays lots of different types ofmusic, jazz and hip hop, and goes
in lots of different directions.
But he's, he's fantastic.

Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
Check it out.
That's, that's one of the things I alsowant to, to cultivate with this thing.
It's like, there's a lotof great music out there.
So I think directing peopleto, to some good stuff is, uh,

Yeah.

Aaron, thank you so much.
Thank you.
Seriously.
Thank you for for being on this thing.
And, uh, yeah, thanks toyou all for for listening.

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