Restoring Cast Iron as a Pathway to Creativity with Denise Jacobs

Episode Transcript
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Brad Frost (00:11):
Welcome to Wake Up Excited!
In this episode, I talkwith Denise Jacobs.
Denise is a creativity evangelist,a speaker, and the author of the
book Banish Your Inner Critic, aswell as several web design books.
I've watched Denise on stage unleashher positive energy to an unsuspecting
conference audience, and I very muchhad her in mind whenever I first hatched

(00:34):
up this idea to put the show together.
We had a great conversationwhere we discussed restoring cast
iron, connecting past and presentpassions growth through teaching.
Navigating this currentpoisonous moment in time.
Denise's incredible backyard gardenand empowerment through creativity.
Before we get into this conversation,I just wanted to say that wake

(00:55):
up excited is a labor of loveand is totally self-funded.
So if you want to support this showand my work, I'd really love it if
you checked out our online coursesabout design systems, digital design,
and web development, which you couldfind at brad frost.com/courses.
All right.
Without further ado, here is myconversation with Denise Jacobs.

(01:19):
Denise, what are youexcited about right now?
What has you waking up excited?

Denise (01:25):
I actually have a few things that are having me wake up excited.
, but the first one that's atangible thing is I just started,
restoring cast iron, which.
I kind of love, likehow obscure that feels.
I think especially for people of acertain age, like in the tech industry

(01:47):
and stuff like that, but I feel likethere's been this, you know, especially
with the pandemic and stuff like that,there's definitely been a movement
to get back to things that are more.
tangible and physical that youcan do that are more kind of
traditional, type endeavors.
I know during the pandemic, everybodygot crazy about making sourdough

(02:08):
bread and, so during Christmas of 2023.

Brad Frost (02:13):
my

Denise (02:14):
sister had mentioned something about restoring cast iron and there's
like a method you can use using easyoff and putting it in like a black
plastic bag and letting it sit fora few days and it takes off all
the crud and all the old, you know,

Brad Frost (02:30):
caked-on

Denise (02:30):
on stuff.
And I had a full set from 12 inchesdown to six inches uh, cast iron
in like six pieces or something.
And I was like, oh wow, I'd reallylike to do that because I have
these old pieces and they, theydon't seem to like be non-stick
the way cast iron's supposed to be,
I

Brad Frost (02:49):
Yep.

Denise (02:50):
it.
And then I thought, oh, for thisChristmas I was thinking, oh, maybe
what I'll do is I'll take one ofmy extra cast iron pans and I'll
refinish it and over for Christmas.
So I did kind of a deepdive looking into stuff.
Started following this guy calledCast Iron Chris on Instagram
and watched his videos, watchedsome of his stuff on YouTube.

(03:12):
Follow this other guy named Josh Shapiro.
I did it with the easy off, hatedit because the stuff didn't come
off and I was like all grumpy.
And so then I went back to the videos andI was like, okay, do I need to make an
The answer to that is no, I didn't needto make an electrolysis tank because one

(03:33):
of the other things that I used to wakeup excited to do many moons ago, moon,
is make handmade soap, handmade cold,processed herbal soap, one of the things
that you need to make that is sodiumhydroxide, AKA lye, because I make soap,
I literally have just hanging around.

(03:55):
And so one of the methods that you canuse is to make what they call a lye bath.
And you put in one pound oflye to five gallons of water.
I was like, well, that's easy.
I got lye.
I happened to have just a poundput it in a bin that I had literally
found on the side of the road.
And I did it and I put the pan thatI had been struggling with in there

(04:16):
and like came back the next day andjust went and took the crud right off.
And I was like, oh.
And then some more research.
It was like, Hey, you know, you can makethis cast iron seasoning mixture with
grape seed oil, sunflower oil and beeswax.
And I was like, well, justliterally happened to have these

(04:37):
things lying around as one does.
And so I made some ofthis, iron seasoning self.
So did the whole process followed it tothe letter and everything and came out
the most gorgeous restored cast iron.
I can read the, the, stamps on the back.

(04:59):
Several of my piecescame from my grandmother.
I, I was hooked.
I was hooked.

Brad Frost (05:06):
amazing.

Denise (05:07):
HOOKED.
So, I went through and I did my whole set.
And then I was just like, Iwant to do, I wanna do more.
And so I posted about it onFacebook and a friend was like,
Oh, I have some that you could do.
And I was like, great, bring 'em by.
And then she was like, Oh, andI also saw this, this posting

(05:27):
for these ones for sale.
I was like, great Contacted the guy.
went, have gathered up, I think atthis point in time, probably 20.
It's been, a, it's been, I'vebeen, I've done a lot, I keep
doing 'em and they keep coming out.
Perfect.
And look at this, look at this.

Brad Frost (05:45):
I mean, that looks like, yeah, that,

Denise (05:48):
this

Brad Frost (05:49):
am I a pampered chef or, Oh my God.

Denise (05:52):
so so pretty it's from India and it's got these gorgeous, gorgeous

Brad Frost (05:56):
Oh, amazing.
I mean, wow.

Denise (05:59):
Look at this.
Gorgeous.

Brad Frost (06:01):
Like that, that looks brand new.

Denise (06:03):
It does.

Brad Frost (06:05):
That's incredible.

Denise (06:06):
so I am like deep, I'm deep in the hole now with it.
I just, I love the process.
I love like the whole thing,but I love the product,
They're kind of the same thing.
So it's, in some ways I feel like, well,it's kind of similar to soap in the
respect was kind of like rough stuff.

(06:27):
You don't know what, and thenyou put it together and you put
the scent and stuff together.
You don't really knowhow it's gonna come out.
And then it comes out and you'rejust like, Oh, I made this thing.
I love making things.

Brad Frost (06:39):
Yeah,

Denise (06:41):
I showed this to you before, look at how

Brad Frost (06:43):
Look at that.

Denise (06:44):
look, how gorgeous,

Brad Frost (06:46):
I mean, that's amazing.

Denise (06:47):
and then even a little

Brad Frost (06:48):
That is incredible.

Denise (06:49):
Come on.

Brad Frost (06:50):
Ah, it's beautiful.

Denise (06:51):
Yeah, I just, I

Brad Frost (06:53):
That's so good.

Denise (06:54):
I love making

Brad Frost (06:55):
products!
It's so good.
just, just a few things justto sort of like play this back.

Denise (06:59):
my
brother.

Brad Frost (07:00):
Because there's a lot there.
You're talking about, the tactileaspect of connecting with something
and like the importance of that.
I also think it's freaking amazing thatyou're able to connect multiple things and
you even said it like many moons ago, youwere waking up excited about this thing.

(07:21):
And it sounds like you're not activelydoing that soap as much but you're
able to carry that forward like quiteliterally in these materials that you
still have around so you're connectingthese dots between these past and
present passions, which is incredible.

(07:41):
You're bringing in community by goingcool, I am excited about this, and I
am wanting more and I want to bringpeople that same excitement and wanna
bring people closer to this and throughthe spirit of helping and making
things better and improving somethingthat's old and worth preserving

Denise (08:07):
right,

Brad Frost (08:08):
and giving a new life to it.

Denise (08:10):
right.

Brad Frost (08:10):
there's like, my God, there's a lot there.

Denise (08:14):
There's a lot of layers

Brad Frost (08:15):
It's amazing.

Denise (08:16):
and, and

Brad Frost (08:17):
Yeah.

Denise (08:17):
You'll see in a lot of ways that this is very much
a common thread with me, beingbeing able to take something that.
was.
not wanted, considered not valuable, ortrash even, or too much work, or whatever,

(08:37):
and taking it, and being like, oh no,
I find this valuable, and I canmake use of it in this way, and
then turning it into somethingabsolutely beautiful and spectacular.
One of the things thatI think is very, very
common in our culture sadly starting tobe more of a dominant culture globally,

(09:02):
this kind of fast consumption, gettingthings using them, when they stop
working so well, throwing them away.
I mean, the number of things

Brad Frost (09:12):
Mm-hmm.

Denise (09:12):
see being thrown away that look perfectly usable.
Yes.
Last night I was driving home andI stopped because I saw something
on the side of the road in myIt was a cotton candy machine.
Like a home cotton candy machine

Brad Frost (09:30):
A proper.

Denise (09:31):
the bowl for it was bent first of all, I'm like,
how did you bend it like this?
But they just had it in a box andit's like the whole thing, the
whole mechanism, the whole machine.
you just try to fix this?
Like, this is a whole ass machine, it'snot, it wasn't bought to be disposable,

(09:55):
it was bought to be used, the thing Ilove about the cast iron is, no matter
how jacked up it looks, for the mostpart, if you strip all the stuff off
and re season it, you're literally, youare like starting from the beginning
and you've got this perfectly serviceserviceable item that probably has tons

(10:18):
of history, tons of people have touched
it, you know, tons of meals have beeneaten at, is nourished countless numbers
of people, families, children, people.
So I think that's really cool.
and I also really love, as a designer,as a musician, as a, all kinds of

(10:38):
things that you've done in your life.
love the process of building masteryof something like the process of
like embarking upon something.
And then learning the tools andlearning the actual, substances that
you're working with and learningthe thing itself and learning the

(11:01):
processes and, and learning how
I learn, like being aware of howI learn something and, and the
observations and what you take and,oh, okay, that doesn't quite work.
Let me try this.
Um, lemme see what somebody else has done.
Let me, there is, maybe there's avideo, maybe there's an article, oh,
there's this, oh, let me try this.

(11:22):
I love that process.
I love it.
And I love, I love like learning a thing

Brad Frost (11:31):
There's so much there, right?
that's why I think that this matters.
And really is the wholegist of this thing.
Is that there are all ofthese opportunities around us.
We are so incredibly lucky to have yeah,pick up literally anything like you

(11:52):
said, physical object, hobby, thing tosink your teeth into the possibilities.
are infinite.
At no other point in human history, havewe had so much abundance and opportunity?
What's interesting to me, and thisis like a little bit of what I'm kind

(12:12):
of picking at with the show, is youdon't necessarily feel that that's
shared when you look out in the rest ofyour community or society writ large.
It's like, you get it.
You're like, oh yeah, like.
Learning stuff, connectingwith things, doing stuff, like,

(12:33):
not just throwing shit away.
There's a lot there, and for me,there tends to be, you just see this
chasm between seemingly like howother people are moving through life,

Denise (12:48):
Mm-hmm

Brad Frost (12:48):
their, what their vantage point is, and this thing that I
feel pretty strongly inside of me,and I'm curious if you share that.

Denise (12:58):
Oh my gosh.
Are you kidding?
Like the amount of the sheer lack ofcuriosity and, willingness or interest in
learning and expanding mind and expandingyour, your Perspective and expanding
what you understand or know to be true.

(13:21):
The lack of that that I feel likeI see is just, is always like, wow.
And it's also interesting too, because.
I feel like in the industry that we'vebeen in and in the cohorts and circles
that we've been in, there are morepeople who are not like that, right?

(13:42):
There are more people who are curious,wanna learn and like to think and put
things together and stuff like that,because we wouldn't have been drawn to.
Tech and

Brad Frost (13:53):
Yep.

Denise (13:54):
and, and, and coding and development and all of those things.
We wouldn't have been drawn to itbecause those are the skills that
you need to be a front end developer,backend developer, designer,

Brad Frost (14:06):
Yep.

Denise (14:07):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Like, you need those skills, I followa guy on Instagram who, um, is an adult
who never really learned how to read.
So he was an illiterate adultand he's teaching himself how to
read and he's teaching himselfhow to become more literate.
just following him and seeing hisstruggles and seeing him struggle

(14:31):
through pronouncing words and readingthings, and he was like, oh, I wanted
to read Harry Potter, but it's kindof too advanced, and so I'm gonna
have to kind of ratchet back and readsomething that's not as advanced.
And, for me as
somebody who learned how to read was two,like, I just started reading early and I

(14:52):
just, and I love to read and I love wordsand I love like all this stuff that is
such a. Polar opposite of my experience.
And I realized that he's notan exception, but there's a

Brad Frost (15:07):
Mm-hmm.

Denise (15:08):
huge part of the population who is at that literacy level and all that stuff.
And it's like my heart goes out to them.
'cause I'm just like,reading is so amazing.
And it's so necessary.
It's such a necessary skill.
to think even how a person's life wouldto, would play out or be structured when

(15:32):
they don't know how to read or they don'thave enough reading comprehension to
understand things like agreement or, you

Brad Frost (15:41):
yes,

Denise (15:41):
so, or even to fill out a

Brad Frost (15:44):
Yeah.

Denise (15:45):
And so it's really interesting to have that kind of expansion of awareness.
Like, wow, this is something thathappens, and can I potentially
do to help mitigate that or

Brad Frost (15:55):
Yeah.

Denise (15:56):
people in those states.
But I don't know if you can helppeople when they're incurious.
I don't know if you if
you can,

Brad Frost (16:08):
I,

Denise (16:08):
you can

Brad Frost (16:09):
yeah,

Denise (16:09):
you can how can you help people

Brad Frost (16:12):
yeah,

Denise (16:13):
they're incurious?
how can you help people when they don'tseem to be particularly interested in
learning or expanding your worldview
or

Brad Frost (16:21):
This is, I think, fascinating.
And first of all, I love that story,and that person who is sharing
their journey and back to the wordmastery that you said earlier.
They're sharing their journey towardsmastery of the English language, right?
And sharing that journey Along the way,just as you're saying, it's like, I love

(16:44):
picking up new things, going throughthat process and that act of sharing the
hard parts, the going through the fallingon your face, the saying, whoops, I'm
trying to read Harry Potter, but I needto walk it back 'cause I'm not there yet.
That is like massivelyempowering to, one themselves.

(17:07):
But two, to all these other peopleas well, and that's, it's something
that I think that curiosity can,
be sparked through the process of sharingthe, the struggle and the creative act,

(17:27):
because what ends up happening, wheneveryou just see the finished painting, or
you just feel the final composition, isa bunch of people go, I can't do that.
I can't do that.
I don't know what that look.
So that's what's I think is soincredibly freaking cool about
the world that we operate in now.
And the fact that we have all ofthese different channels and outlets

(17:52):
YouTube's a freaking miracle, right?
But all of these things, right?
Whether it's Instagram.
Like when you see artistson Instagram, right?
And Like me and my daughterwe'll watch these things forever.
, and some of the videosare are literal hours.
Some of them are edited to shitand made to look like super cool
and really processed and stuff.

(18:14):
But what you see is that process.
and it becomes a lot moreattainable for people.

Denise (18:23):
Yeah.

Brad Frost (18:23):
Yeah.
That's like the, the, the creative act.
I, I call it like creative exhaust.
It's like, it's not the finished piece.
It's, it's the exhaust.
It's all of this sort of fumes,the byproducts of that thing.
That all has a lot of value.
And I think that that's reallyfascinating, but I think like kind
of bringing it back to like, how doyou sort of shake a bunch of people

(18:48):
who just seem to be sleepwalking
or just outwardly, like,hostile to learning new
things or having an open mind.
I think that there's something there.
I don't know what the answers are, butwhat I found, and I'm curious to get your
take on this, because I've seen you lightup a room full of hundreds of people.

(19:10):
And.
It's freaking amazing, I, I mean thatlike it's been a number of years, but
I remember it like it was yesterday,and I think what happens, and I'm sure
you get a lot of people come up toyou after you give a talk or whatever,
and there's this attraction, right?
people want to be around you, and peopleare like, are, are like leaning in

(19:34):
hard whenever you you are demonstratinga way of being that they were not
up until that moment of hearing youspeak aware of, or they've been aware
of it, but you're giving them somehowpermission to, to be interested,

(19:55):
to be excited, to be enthusiastic.
I hadn't said it out loud until now,just because like, I've had this idea
for a podcast for a long time andyou're like the first person that
came to my mind . That's the reason.
That's the reason.
It's like when you're out there andyou're living life a certain way, what

(20:17):
you're doing is Whether you're explicitlydoing it or not, you're pulling people
along and you're bringing people up

Denise (20:25):
Mm-hmm.

Brad Frost (20:26):
closer to where you're at rather than you getting
dragged down into the dredges.

Denise (20:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for saying that.
I, I think too, one of the things thatI, I really focus on, and again, this
is something that I, I can't help.
It's just.
innate to me.
I just, I literally can't stop myself,but it's like, don't wanna just model
this kind of way of being for people.

(20:55):
But I also want to give people tools.
when people are like, I, I, I knewthat there was something else, but
I didn't know quite what it was.
And you kind of helpedme put my finger on it.
And I'm like, yes.
And I'm thinking to myself, yes.
And I hope I gave you sometools to be able to actually

(21:16):
start on the process yourself.
Because I

Brad Frost (21:19):
Yeah.

Denise (21:20):
you, one of my pet peeves as a speaker is going places and going to
conferences and listening to speakers,and they're like this pie in the sky
thing and this wonderful thing and thatwonderful thing and the other thing.
And I'm like, great, how do I do it?
And then they get off the stageand I'm like, are you, you, what?

(21:40):
You gonna say all this?
And you're not gonna give meanything tangible or concrete of
how I can possibly access that?
and I have to say that in terms oflike with my own creative endeavors
or, craft, DYI, et cetera, et ceteracreative expression and stuff like that.
I mean, of the reason that we're eventalking to each other right now is

(22:04):
because I started making soap and thenI ended up teaching soap making because
people were like, how do you make soap?
I was like, it's super easy.
Come over to my house andI'll show you how to do it.
And then I started teaching soapmaking and then I started teaching
it to like larger classes oflike 20, 24 people, whatever.

(22:25):
And then doing that led me to beable to, um, I was also incidentally
doing tech work and doing like HTMLand like front end development stuff.
And so then I started teachingHTML and front end development
stuff because was doing it and thenI had this teaching experience.

(22:46):
Then I'm teaching

Brad Frost (22:46):
Yeah.

Denise (22:47):
at a conference.
I see, I see Molly Hoch on front enddevelopment and all of the stuff that
I taught, because I taught from her, Itaught from some of her books was like,
oh, I wanna be on a stage doing thisin classroom teaching like 24 people.
just went from there.

(23:08):
I feel like some ways for me personallyin this incarnation of who I am and
how I am on the planet at this pointin time, it is unconscionable for me
to know something that I think canhelp somebody and not teach them.

Brad Frost (23:27):
Yeah,
Yeah.
it's it's an, it's a real instinct.

Denise (23:31):
And

Brad Frost (23:32):
Yep.

Denise (23:33):
the funny thing is is that of course now I have a folder for
all of my um, cast iron stuff.
one of the things that I did was assoon as I I posted on Facebook, um,
in one of my groups, I'm in these buynothing, I'm gonna buy nothing group.
And I

Brad Frost (23:52):
yeah,

Denise (23:53):
is anybody trying to get rid of cast iron?
And a bunch of people were like, probablyfive people were like, you know what?
I don't wanna get rid of any, but I,I wanna learn how to take care of it.
And I was like, I should do a workshop.
Like the, the very first thing.
And so I sat down and I sketched out,did bullet points and everything.

(24:14):
And I sketched out a cast iron workshopand like the timing and how long it
would take and what would they need.
And

Brad Frost (24:22):
beautiful,

Denise (24:23):
a little kit they do.
We'll actually go through theprocess of making the seasoning sell.
They'll have their own littletin that they go home with,
you know, rubber gloves.
and And it was like, I swear toGod, it was like the easiest thing.
It was like falling off of a log.

Brad Frost (24:39):
Yeah, yeah.

Denise (24:40):
it was
crazy how easy it was like my brainjust went, oh, okay, and this and
this and this, and the timing.
And

Brad Frost (24:46):
yep.

Denise (24:46):
be like an hour and a half, and while that's happening, it was nuts.
I was just like, wow.
All right, brain, go on with the bad self.

Brad Frost (24:55):
I mean, it's those conditions, right?
Because what you're describing isone, like a long history, whether
it's SOAP HTML or whatever,you have these superpowers.
You have these gifts.
You're aware of those gifts.
You're also self-aware of this innatepull to, to teach and to share.

(25:17):
And then You also have this emergingthing, and you're going through the
process yourself, and there's thisreal drive, or, or instant knee
jerk reaction to go, I'm into this.
Other people are signaling thatthey could also be into this

(25:38):
and I am just gonna go for it.
So there's this kind of stew happening.
You're learning a new thing.
You're figuring it out.
You're trying, you're failing.
You kind of cross a, a certain threshold.
And then as soon as like youhave something, you're like,
well, that's, that's valuable.
And other people can, can benefit from it.
So, so let's make it happen.

Denise (25:59):
Honestly, if people had just said here, I have a pan for you.
I'd been like, great.
But the fact that five people I, I'd loveto learn how to take care of my castine.
I don't really know.
And I was like, I used to be one of thosepeople, I mean, I remember I actually had
taken a soap making class, know, yearsbefore I started teaching it myself.

(26:23):
And I took a soap makingclass and I failed miserably.
My soap did not come out from that class.
It actually ended up separating.
I realize now.
actually, I have to say that that failurewas really helpful because it made it so
that when I finally went back to trying tomake soap again and was successful, I was

(26:46):
like, oh, okay, this was the problem, you

Brad Frost (26:51):
Yeah,

Denise (26:51):
didn't

Brad Frost (26:52):
Yeah.

Denise (26:52):
We didn't mix the mixture long enough for it
to actually set up properly.
When I started doing it, I was like,okay, this is what I'm gonna do to make
sure that that doesn't happen again.
And then when I did my soap makingclasses, I was like, this is what you do.
And I was Like I will literallynot let you walk out of this
class unless you're soap tracesand comes, gets the right thing.

(27:13):
Like, if we need to be here for anotherhour, we will be, but you're not walking
outta here without experiencing whatthat looks like and knowing what it
feels like so that when you do it athome, you know exactly what you're doing.
Because that's how I get down.

Brad Frost (27:27):
That's an interesting thing too, to be able to take, your
personal experience with failure oryou could extrapolate that out to
just hardship in general and to usethat experience to make sure that
other people don't go through the same

Denise (27:47):
But

Brad Frost (27:47):
and that you feel an opportunity, but also a responsibility
to make sure that other peopledon't suffer the same thing.

Denise (27:55):
and it's really true I'm so glad you, you picked up on that.
That has actually been athrough line in my whole career.
as a instructor or teacheror trainer or whatever?
When I was teaching HTML, I startedgetting frustrated when my students
were like, it doesn't work.
Oh, I'm, I failed.
It's awful.
And I'd be like, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, Time out.

(28:17):
Did You do so

Brad Frost (28:18):
Yeah.

Denise (28:18):
They'd

Brad Frost (28:19):
I.

Denise (28:19):
uh, well, I was like, did you check so and so?
They're like, yeah.
like, did you check so and so?
Yeah.
that process of having a standardway of troubleshooting ended up being
the basis of my first book,The CSS Detective Guide.
And when I met the woman who was my,my acquisitions editor, and she was

(28:44):
like, well, I have this idea for a bookabout like, you know, basically like.
Solving the mysteries of CSS'cause so many people like will do
stuff in CSS and it doesn't work.
And why?
And so kinda like, need likea troubleshooting guide.
I was like, I could write that too.
Was like, really?
And I was like, I used to teach, I hadlike a troubleshooting, like worksheet.

(29:05):
I had for my students.
Like, okay, if this, you've gota problem, check here, check in
the head, check this check to makesure that your quote is finished.
Check to make sure yourbracket's finished.
And she was like, oh yeah, let's talk.
And that's, that

Brad Frost (29:19):
You already wrote it.

Denise (29:20):
I was like, no, I actually, it's funny, like that check that that worksheet
is like, like two pages in chapter one,

Brad Frost (29:28):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Denise (29:30):
is like,

Brad Frost (29:30):
But in essence, you have demonstrated, that thing, I've
already got the the nugget of it.

Denise (29:36):
I've already got like the, like the, the kernel of it.
and then I would have to say that thingthat got me into doing creativity was
when I was writing the CSS detectiveguide and I was struggling so much.
trying to keep motivatedand all this stuff.
I actually stopped working onone of my chapters because my
inner critic was so strong thatI couldn't even write anything.

(30:00):
and I literally stopped what I wasdoing and went and looked up articles
on like how to silence the inner critic.
And came across an article that saidsomething, she had this quote from SARC or
something like, banish your inner critic,uh, to go hunt rare lemurs in Madagascar.
And I was like, banishyour inner critic, word.

Brad Frost (30:23):
Yeah.

Denise (30:24):
up like not long about that.
After that I came up and I was like,it would be great to teach like a
workshop on how to like banish your innercritic And silence your inner critic.
And that was in 2010.
Can you believe that,
And like that,

Brad Frost (30:39):
Beautiful.

Denise (30:40):
kind of through line.
And so like when I did, I was like,Oh, there's this whole, there are
all of these things that I did whenI finally started doing research.
It turned out that a lot of the thingsthat I was doing intuitively were actual
practices

Brad Frost (30:57):
Yes.

Denise (30:58):
creativity and sunrise in your inner critic and all

Brad Frost (31:01):
Yes.

Denise (31:01):
it again, like you said, it was the failure, it was the struggle,
it was the difficult thing that gotme to the thing that ended up being
the thing that I was successful with.

Brad Frost (31:14):
To be able to flip something on its head and make lemonade out of it.
There's really something to the fact thatyou're doing this through the lens of
not just how do I solve this problem formyself, but a real theme here is as soon
as you're like, ah, there's something,or like, oh, I got through this, the

(31:39):
immediate instinct, is to go, Oh, let medo a workshop on this or ultimately like,
let me like write a book on the topic.
And I think that there's something reallyimportant there because there's a few
different kinds of creative people onthe planet, you probably know this a
lot better than me, but there's, thereare the hoarders and the people that

(32:01):
are, so up their own ass than they're,you know, egocentric and whatever, and
protective, and it's like that wholebullshit hero narrative and all of that
stuff, and then there are the people who,by way of their work, understand that

(32:23):
bringing more people into these ideas anddisseminating them out into the world and
teaching people the tools of the trade,just like you said, giving people those
tools, giving people the peek behind thecurtain, whatever it is, is so much more
satisfying Then doing the work yourself.

(32:45):
You make that one bar of soap.
Okay, like, that's great.
I'll use this until it's goneand then I'll make another one.
Right?
it's like, that's, that's great.
I, I'll make this website.
And oh, I like learnedsome things along the way.
And like, I'll make thenext website better.
There's a finite number of websitesthat that I can make on this planet.

(33:09):
But that ability to just go a little,a little further out and say, I'm just
gonna put this here, put this ideaout here, put this thing I learned
out here, put this like whatever, youjust see this cascade of, of, of just.
It's, it's staggering.

(33:29):
And like, when we're talking aboutlike the web, like that's why I love
this thing so much all these yearslater is that you're like I. idea, like
literally travels around the world.
And then you're like, Oh, it becomesaddicting, but in the best, in most
positive way possible, because it'screativity plus community, plus

(33:53):
this this kind of like sharedvulnerability slash we're working
through it and we're building on eachother's idea we're collaborating,
E even if it's not explicitly calledcollaboration in that same way, um, but
just holy smokes, like I write an article,someone else rebounds that article.

(34:16):
It's like, here's my thoughts onit and I freaking love it whenever
they're like disagreeing and stuff too.
But it's like, here's what I do insteadand I'm like, yeah, like that's.
That's it right there.
It's like we we're just all kind

Denise (34:29):
Building on
top of each other.
Exactly.

Brad Frost (34:32):
Yeah.

Denise (34:33):
love that.
Like I remember once somebody said backin the soap making days and they were
like, aren't you worried that you'relike creating competition for yourself?
And I was just like, I was like,okay, first of all, no, because Even
if somebody exact same recipe ofsoap as I did, wouldn't be the same.

(34:57):
It wouldn't have the same feel to it.
It wouldn't, was like, number one.
Number two, soap issomething that you consume.
You go through it.
That I was like, I buy soapfrom other soap makers.
I, I don't wanna just use myself.
It's like eating yourown cooking all the time.
You're like, I don't wanna justeat my own food all the time.
I like eating other people's food'cause it tastes different than mine.

Brad Frost (35:18):
Yeah.

Denise (35:19):
and not only that,

Brad Frost (35:20):
Yeah.

Denise (35:20):
like, you know, if other people wanna, I mean, they
could teach it and everything.
I was like, but I'm reallygood at teaching this.
Here's an interesting thing that's, that'skind of funny too, So when I decided
to stop teaching soap making outta myhouse and wanted to it to more people.
I was living in Seattle at the time and Iwent to the UDub extension, which is like

(35:44):
the adult education extension that they

Brad Frost (35:47):
Yeah.

Denise (35:47):
night classes and stuff like that.
And I went there and I.

Brad Frost (35:51):
Beautiful.

Denise (35:52):
a application to teach my soap making class through that and everything.
you know, during the interview,they basically were just
like, here are all the rules.
Will you abide by the rules?
And I was like, sure.
And they're like, niceto have you on board.
And I was like, okay, great.
Well, I would like to havetwo sessions of the class.
And they were like, oh, yeah.

(36:13):
You know, when you're starting out.
What we recommend is that you just haveone, you just have one session and you
don't have two sessions because, ifit doesn't take on and not that many
people sign up, it's better to just havelike one course, that's like partially
full or almost full than like twocourses that aren't very full at all.

(36:36):
And I
remember thinking to myself.
you have no idea how popularthis class is gonna be.
But I was like, I waslike, okay, that's cool.
You know, whatever, we'll just do one.
And they're like, yeah, you know,we'll just like, we'll see, and
I can see if it builds up inpopularity and all this stuff.
I was thinking, mm-hmm.
They put it into, they had, theyused to do like this kind of like
newspaper flyer thing that came outfor the new quarter and everything.

(37:01):
It

Brad Frost (37:01):
Yep.

Denise (37:02):
Three weeks after it came out.
was before the quarter started,three weeks after it came out,
I get a call from the woman whowas the director of the A SUW.
She was like, Hey, Denise, Tiffany.
And I was like, Tiffanygirl, what's going on?
And she was like, well, your class isfull has 16 people on the waiting list.
Did you wanna open up another session?

(37:24):
And I was like, yep.
And basically from that pointon, I always had two sessions of
the class and they always filled.
And I always had people on thewaiting list, always, every time.
it was like, because I

Brad Frost (37:36):
Beautiful.

Denise (37:37):
was like, it was just, it was so timely and it was so like perfect.
So it's interesting too when you say,oh, you know, for the people who are
just like this all to myself and Idon't wanna, and somebody's gonna
steal it and all that stuff, it'sjust like, much more could you do and
how much more could you grow things?
If you share it, right?

(37:57):
Like it's,

Brad Frost (37:57):
Yeah.

Denise (37:58):
of the thing that that helps just the thing itself
grow, but it helps you grow.
I started teaching and speaking andstuff because that the very first
class that I taught to the 24 people.
The way I describe it to people islike, you know how when you jump on
a trampoline and you jump up and thatthere's that beautiful moment where

(38:21):
you go up in the air and you hit thehighest point and then you come down and
the higher you jump, the more that youcan really feel that I was like, I felt
like when the class started was when Ijumped off of the trampoline and when
the LA class ended was when I landed.
I. it was like that feeling of likeelation and bouyance and, joy and

(38:45):
lightness and brightness and everything.
When I landed, it was justlike, I have to do that.
again.
That was amazing.
And I feel like that still.
Like when I speak and when I go andI do a workshop, I still have that
feeling of buoyancy and, and rightnessand and do you know what I mean?

Brad Frost (39:11):
Boy do I,

Denise (39:12):
So maybe that's why it's like my first inclination
is like, I'll make a workshop

Brad Frost (39:18):
I mean, that's beautiful.
Like, I, I love that visual of thetrampoline, and I think once you
experience that, that real feelingof flow and fulfillment and like,
this is exactly as it needs to be.
That's such a potent and powerfulexperience, 'cause once you

(39:41):
have that, you know it's there,and you go looking for it,

Denise (39:47):
what's

Brad Frost (39:47):
and yeah,

Denise (39:49):
right?

Brad Frost (39:50):
and, That's what I want with this show, 'cause a a lot of people I
think will look at people like you orlook at people like me, it ends up
being communicated in different ways.
There's some sort oflike, what are you doing?
Like, I don't, I don't really getthis, but like, I see you and you
seem to be having a good time.

(40:10):
Something like that.
Right.
And, and I think that thosetrampoline Zenith moments are
available to everyone and.
Enough people, I think, haven't readyour book and they talk themselves
out of things and they don't putthemselves in situations, right?

(40:32):
Because that requires a certain amountof vulnerability that requires a leaning
in and what I tend to see with a lotof folks, even creative professionals,
professional designers, they're like,Oh, I, I couldn't possibly, right?
It's it's this like total you are shuttingthe door just as soon as it's presented
to it's like, just think about it evenfor a second, just consider it for a

(40:56):
half a second and like bust through thatknee jerk reaction of like, I don't know.
That's that's unfamiliar.
That's scary.
That's whatever.
Right?
And because when you follow it andone when you sort of allow yourself
to open the door to that curiosity andThat interest in that pursuit, that's

(41:19):
that high point of the trampoline.
Like you get there eventually, but youhave to put yourself in situations that
can give you the ability to have that.
I kind of try to pick at it in justconversations that I have, it does just
kind of seem like a lot of people just.

(41:40):
expect it to just fall into their lap orfor it to just show up or reveal itself.
And it's like, nah, dude, yougotta, you gotta go find it.
You gotta, you gotta go.
You gotta do it.

Denise (41:53):
I mean, I feel like it's kind of multiple parts, right?
Sometimes things do fall inyour lap, but I also think

Brad Frost (42:00):
Sure.

Denise (42:00):
the more you pay attention yourself, your process, your interests.
What feels right, then the easierfor you to recognize something that
comes across your path you can belike, Oh, this is one of those things.
This has a spark of opportunity.

(42:21):
in it.
I was at South by Southwest when Imet my acquisitions editor and I met
her 'cause she was had, um, friend ofmine, she was his editor and so I ran
into them and he introduced me to her.
two days previous to running into her.
I was talking to a friend and I wasactually pathetic and pitiful and

(42:45):
lamenting and whining and I was like,I just wanna speak at web conferences.
I don't know why I can'tspeak at web conferences.
I'll be so good of a speaker.
Why can't I just do that?
most of the people I know who speakat web conferences have a book.
dude, I was like, the only bookthat I could write is a book on
HTML, and Lord knows the worlddoesn't need another one of those.

(43:09):
And she was like, listen, I'm justtelling you what I've observed.
And I was just like, well, point taken.
Thank you.
Appreciate your input.
Two days later, I'm on the stairs.
I run into Wendy Sharp.
she was like, oh, we'realways looking for authors.
And I was like, oh yeah, I couldlike write a book on stuff.

(43:29):
He was like, what?
And I was
like, well, I have this idea about liketalking about this, like weight loss.
We do tech books.
I was like, right.
I used to teach web design and webdevelopment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she was like, have an idea aboutthis book about troubleshooting CSS.
And I was like, I could write that book.
now.
Had I not had the conversation with myfriend two days ago, I might not have

(43:50):
even been primed mentally to try to say

Brad Frost (43:54):
Yep.

Denise (43:54):
about writing a book.
Right?

Brad Frost (43:57):
Yep.
Yep.

Denise (43:58):
you know what I mean?
So did it fall into my lap?
Kind of Did I have a process of making itclear to me that that was an opportunity?
when I recognized that I saw it, whenshe said that I was like, Oh me, me.
I'll write a book.
Me.

Brad Frost (44:14):
Yeah.

Denise (44:14):
please.

Brad Frost (44:15):
that priming is fantastic.
Like, it's we feel itin our consciousness.
Or, or a lot of times those thingsthat do feel like serendipity, right?
it's because we passed that billboard,it's because we heard that thing, or
it's because we read that article,or it's because we did this thing.

(44:36):
And that stuff matters, and I'vebeen thinking about it a lot.
Recently, just because of it goes bothways that psychological priming right
when all you hear and all that's aroundyou and all the news says and all that
the just sort of general zeitgeist.

(44:58):
Is negativity, is threat,is fear, is whatever.
When things happen, go,Ah, ah, there it is!
We notice that, right?
And so, one of the things that I am,I'm contemplating, and I know that
we're all struggling right now, andmaybe we can maybe use that as an

(45:19):
opportunity to get into that, becausethere's this like, total incongruency.
With what we're talking about, andwhat this moment in time is seemingly
at this, at this kind of macro level.
And that priming, and that like, the,the water is poisoned, just the air

(45:40):
is poisoned, the water is poison.
everything that we are just bathing in,is so unhealthy, and so negative, and
that primes our brains, collectively.
To be looking for threats, tobe more fearful, to be more
disconnected, to be less trusting.
And I find myself, right?

(46:01):
'cause I'm a human being and I,and I'm susceptible to went to my
niece's basketball game last night.
And I'm like scanning the bleachers justkind of going, I caught myself doing it.
and I'm just like, there it is,
The, the things that we are primed for,what our brains are primed for, impacts

(46:23):
how we operate in the world, how we'rethinking, who we're talking to, what
we pick up, what we don't pick up, andit's just so incredibly toxic, the whole
everything right now, it seems, Andyou mentioned this before we started
recording, not jumping into the toxicriver seems to be a pretty sensible,

(46:46):
coping mechanism in this moment in time.
Right.

Denise (46:50):
right.
I mean, one of the things I, I thinkwe have to do to maintain our sanity
and to create a barrier betweenourselves and this toxicity is.
how can we create safespaces for ourselves?
right?
How can we create sanctuary?

(47:12):
how can we create Safe insulation.
one of the things that I feel that we cando that with is through community and is
through connecting with other like-minded

Brad Frost (47:28):
Yes.

Denise (47:29):
that's how

Brad Frost (47:29):
yes.

Denise (47:30):
create kind of mental and actually even potentially
defacto physical um, and safety

Brad Frost (47:39):
I love that.
I'm hearing like there's protectioninvolved and there's creating a
place where, where you have reprieve

Denise (47:48):
Yes,

Brad Frost (47:48):
from

Denise (47:49):
like,

Brad Frost (47:50):
the,
the mess.

Denise (47:51):
you did this when you did your Frostapalooza.
Like, you created this lovelygathering of like-minded, supportive
people to come together and be ina celebratory space for a weekend.
And, like, how wonderful and special.

(48:13):
that.
Now is a particularly importanttime for us to be seeking out
and, or creating those spaces.
ourselves, for having our ownkind of place of safety and
reprieve and sanctuary, and then.
In a grander sense for,

Brad Frost (48:33):
Yes.
Yes.

Denise (48:35):
people.

Brad Frost (48:36):
Yeah.
A hundred percent agree.
I think a lot of the messagingI've seen around sort of self
care and stuff like that is it'sreally weak sauce in my opinion.
And like,
I am, I am like, so much of it is maybeonce in a while, take a quick step out of

(48:58):
the Toxic River, and like, dry yourselfoff before you jump back in, or it's
this like, You build a moat and you,or or you duck your head in the sand.
And I, I think that'sa bit of a cop out too.
And where I'm starting torealize is the way to fight.
Is through putting love andpositivity out into the world.

(49:22):
And that's not somehippie dippy shit there.
Like that's like actually like a reallyprofound, it's really hard to do.
It's, but it's really important work.
So it's like, yes, there's sanctuary,but there's this, there's this
outwardness to it that isn't just like,Oh, we're circling the wagons and we
have like our little tribe that's here.
It's like, no, no, no.

(49:43):
We need to like demonstrate.
to others, that there are different waysof being that reject this, this just
absolute toxic reality that, that I seeeveryone in my life consumed by right now.

(50:03):
And, and again, It's, there's nofault there, but like what I'm
finding is like a personal missionas someone who I feel like has like
this perspective and this ability
to exude positivity and to put that stuffout there, like I feel a real drive and
responsibility, just like you're talkingabout with like, with teaching that

(50:25):
instinct, I'm like, my instinct is going.
I'm not gonna get out thereand start railing on things.
That's not going to help the dialogue.
That's not gonna help anything.
I'm going to show another wayof, of existing, of being, of
showing up, of, of fighting.
I'm gonna, I'm gonnafight with some dollars.

(50:47):
I'm gonna like, Uh, this is, this issomething I'm gonna try this out on you.
And I really wanna get yourtake on it because People get
outraged because there's realharm being done to real people.
So putting your head in the sandand just being like, I'm not, just
not going to pay attention to it.
It's not acceptable.
That's not an option.

(51:08):
But also, what I've learned isthat these, these ghouls, who are
very deeply psychologically unwell,attention is their lifeblood.
That is their fuel, right?
So recognizing those two things, realharm is being done to real people.
And these people want nothingmore than me to just be thinking

(51:30):
about them all day, every day.
And I refuse to give them that fuel.
But I also need to keep and payattention to the real harm of the
real thoughts, words, actions . So,what I'm trying to do and it's very,
very difficult is to create it, createa separation where I'm able to stay

(51:52):
laser focused on like the real things.
And that's going to help me understand.
Who do I need to donate money to?
Who do I need to show up for supportand, how should I cast my vote?
How should I exist in my community?
Like, et et cetera, etcetera, that stuff matters.
But at the same time, I'mjust going to be like.
Yeah, somewhere out there, bad peopleare doing bad things, and they could

(52:16):
just kind of stay in amorphous blobthat's like off in the distance
or behind a curtain somewhere.
Like, I'm gonna be over here tryingto care about people and those people
that are having harm done to get them.
But I'm also going to just recognizethis, this negative presence, encounter
it by showing up with positivity.

(52:36):
So I don't know

Denise (52:37):
what you're doing, and like I said, you've already started doing
it, before things went very sideways.
but you're also having theseconversations, by talking to people
like me about what it is that makesthem excited to get up in the morning,
through that you are a building communityand you are a building connection and

(52:59):
with your, kind of analogy of poisonriver and poison air and everything.
Yes, and there's a source of poisonin the river and if we can get to the
source and neutralize those poisons.
Then we have a chance.
I wanted to say that the secondthing that uh, makes me excited to

(53:24):
wake up is having turned my wholeyard into an edible food forest,

Brad Frost (53:31):
I am so glad that you went there 'cause as soon as you're
like, take the poison outta the air,convert it, like, I'm like, Oh, now
we get to talk about your garden.
Fantastic.

Denise (53:41):
is a very, very, tangible way that I am contributing to transforming
or removing toxins from the airand removing toxins from the earth
and putting back good and necessary
things there.
and also a really good example ofsanctuary and also a. Potentially

(54:04):
having it be a gathering placefor people to experience some
moments of peace, to experience
some moments of wonder, toexperience some moments of learning.
one of the things I love aboutgardening is having this opportunity
to learn a thing all the time.

(54:25):
So, you know, every single plant in myyard, I myself in tank, which means.
went out and I found it.
I, you know, I bought, I sourced it.
I bought it.
I planted it.
I, you know, some things I had in pots fora long time before they actually went into
the ground into their kind of final place.

(54:47):
And then some things got movedbecause it turns out that in the
process of and paying attention andlooking at it, I realized that it
actually wasn't in the right place,that I didn't put it in a place where
that would allow it to thrive.
And that's also something that Ithink is, you know, very valuable

(55:09):
is having time to observe something.
So that you can figure out how to makethe most of it and get the best out of it.
if that's a plant, if that's a person,if that's a team, so I mean, I think
that that's also a really important,a really important part of kind of all

(55:32):
of this contributing to encounteringkind of grander level of levels of
toxicity that awareness, being groundedfor yourself then being able to, from
a grounded place, being able to makeobservations and then make changes and
take action based on your observations,I think is a really powerful combination.

Brad Frost (55:58):
Amazing.
And the end result is this,
I mean, just gorgeous lookingoasis, so it's like, yeah, like,
the before and after is stunning,is is absolutely stunning, and Shit.
I mean, it looks like it's likeout of a textbook where it's just
like, here's deforestation and thenhere's reforestation or whatever.

(56:19):
So it's like, it, it's like very, verylike visceral before and after picture
of like this really lush environment.
And it's just, it's gorgeous.
It's amazing.

Denise (56:32):
you know, one of my extreme points of pride with this place is
the fact that most of the materialsare, have all been upcycled.
So I made raised beds out of Oakwoodflooring that came from my neighbor's
house across the street I have adeck with an outdoor shower and

Brad Frost (56:54):
Sure.

Denise (56:56):
in it.
And I really, really wanted thatdeck to be made out EPE wood, but
EPE is extraordinarily expensive.
And then I found a guy who had takenapart his Epay deck and was selling
the pieces at a fraction of the cost.
And so I got all this stuff and had folks,like, sand it down, and, like, make it

(57:19):
renew and reuse it.
And so now I have this gorgeous outdoorshower and deck and actually had enough
to wrap my, my cement, uh, and tile porch.
And now my porch is, um, is wood.
And I mean, just all of these things,you know, some wood for free, Off of

(57:40):
Offer Up from this guy who took apart hismom's cedarwood, cabana in her backyard.
and was like, hey, if you canpick it up, come and take it.
And I was like, I will be theretomorrow with pickup truck.
all of this.
Wouldn't have been possible without, firstof all, creative constraints, second of

(58:00):
all, without being like, what have I got?
how can I take this thing thatsomebody literally would've
put in landfill and how can I
take

Brad Frost (58:10):
Yeah,

Denise (58:10):
and and make something with it?
And that's one of the things that Iam so proud of is that these things
were all going to be thrown away.
You

Brad Frost (58:21):
yeah,

Denise (58:22):
And then

Brad Frost (58:23):
Yeah.

Denise (58:23):
up making this, this oasis with it.
what's being at as.
Not valuable as garbage,as broken, as unusable.
And how can reframe that and say,no, no, we can, we can use this part.

(58:45):
Okay.
Maybe that part I can't use.
Maybe I have to sand it down.
Maybe I have to cut that part off'cause that part's too far gone, but
we

Brad Frost (58:54):
Yeah.

Denise (58:54):
have a lot we can work with.
We still have materials that are valuable.
We still have somethingthat that can be put to use.
And if we just look at it properly,if we put, add a little bit of
creativity and some ingenuity, Wecan figure, how to, we can figure out

(59:15):
how to nurture and make it gorgeous.

Brad Frost (59:18):
yeah, not, not just make it good enough, like literally take it
way better than it would be otherwise.
Right.
And those, Ingredients matter a great deal
and I I think that's just so sobeautifully said and it really doesn't
require that much extra work if at all.

(59:43):
In fact, it's a hell of a loteasier half the time, right?
It's certainly cheaper, as you're saying.
The immediate thing that comes tomind is like whenever you, you look
at just the, the stark juxtapositionof how much it takes to to educate
someone versus to jail them,
there's where like the the money is
is, is
far better spent.

(01:00:04):
the fact that this is just available,and all it really does is to kind of
take a bit of a shift in perspective.
That to me is so incredibly powerfulthat is like with the exact same
materials, with the exact same resources,infrastructure, people, whatever.
And that's where that idea of ofvision of being able to imagine, to

(01:00:29):
be creative, So I live in Pittsburgh.
There's all these bridges.
Anytime there's any sort of thingabout like bike lanes or, or, getting
rid of any stretch of road in orderto make it a little bit friendlier
for non-car, it's this big uproar.
It's this big thing.
My neighbor was just showing meHad a rendering of like, what if we

(01:00:50):
were to just take one of the bridgesand like turn that into a park?
And so like, you know, therewas a, a, a really beautiful
artistic rendering of this thing.
It would just be a pedestrian bridge.
It's the bridge right bythe, the baseball stadium.
So all these people, whenever a baseballgame's happening, all these people are
walking across that bridge anyways.
And she's like, just dothat all the time, right?

(01:01:11):
And plant some trees andit'll be freaking great.
it's a very inexpensive.
investment, but would radicallytransform the, a space that desperately
needs some, some more green space.
and it's just like, that's, that'sthe kind of thing it's like kind
of coming back to, it's just likethere's this negativity, lack of

(01:01:33):
imagination, lack of, of just can-doattitude versus the qualities that
you embody so perfectly, I think,
I, I feel like that before andafter is just like a real exercise
in here's what vision Gets to you.
Here's here's what this this kind ofattitude can yield and I think it's such

(01:01:56):
like just a beautiful embodiment of thespirit of, of the show and what we're
like, kind of trying to do here is to justbe like, what is that like, after picture
Can we teach people to be more curious?
When we look at these moments andwhat's in front of us, a lot of times.
It doesn't necessarily showitself as, as totally obvious,

(01:02:19):
but there's this kind of instinct.
And again, this is kind of somethingthat I'm picking at there's this
instinct that it's like, it's, it seemslike challenging the moment at hand or
trying to change the moment at hand.
By way of just, like, trying to, makepeople happy or trying to, like, sort
of promote positivity, or creativity,or, like, it feels almost insulting,

(01:02:43):
especially as, like, real people are,like, being harmed in this moment, right?
And so it seems shallow or naive to,to be like this actually doesn't feel
like a trite, peace, love, dove, kindof, like, weird sentiment, but it
actually feels like more potent and,and has more, like, gravity than I

(01:03:03):
think that I. we, we give it credit for.
And I don't know, I, I'm kind of,like, feeling around here, but it's
like my overwhelming instinct asI'm like, like, this has to be met

Denise (01:03:14):
I

Brad Frost (01:03:14):
with an equal and opposite reaction,

Denise (01:03:16):
It

I guess.

Denise (01:03:17):
And I, I think, What's happening in this moment is that people are
feeling incredibly disempowered.
having conversations like this, Exposingyour audience to other people who
are actually doing something and havekind of tapped into kind of way to

(01:03:38):
exist in the world in a more empoweredway will help other people see how
they can potentially do the right.
It's

Yeah.

Denise (01:03:49):
you glossing over, toxic river.
It's not what we're doing is we're,like you said, we're providing a
counterpoint, then I think that

Mm-hmm.

Denise (01:04:00):
start to feel empowered in one area of their life and feel like they,
they can start to have more agency inone area of their life, then that can
potentially spill over into other areas.
at me, even for myself, I can look outsideto be like, you did that on like a shoes

(01:04:23):
string budget with like a skeleton crew.
You did all of that.
If you can do that, what else can you do?
I remember I'm not evengonna apologize for it.
I know I keep talking about my, first bookand stuff like that, kind of this lovely
moment, you know, now that I have this.
Vantage point of gosh, that was 15years ago, and so much has happened

(01:04:44):
since 15 and 16 years ago, but it'slike now I have a really clear, way of
looking back at this and kind of seeingall the things that were happening
that I just couldn't see at the time.
And, I remember when I was.
trying to write my book that it was justlike, you know, who am I to write a book?
Like, who am I to do this?

(01:05:05):
And how can I possibly do this?
And I don't even know if I can.
And then at the end of it,when I did it, I was just like,
Oh my God, I wrote a book.
Not only did I write a book, but I likedesigned like websites as examples,
which I wasn't even sure if I wasa very good web designer, but I was
actually able to design these thingsand break them and build them and

(01:05:28):
write about it in story format.
I was just like, well, Jesus, ifI can do this, what else can I do?
the empowerment that I got from being ableto do this thing that I wasn't sure I was
able to do made it so that it transferred.
And I was like, if I can do this,what other thing that I didn't

(01:05:50):
think I could do or wasn't sureI could do, can I actually do?

Yeah.

Denise (01:05:55):
feel like

Uh, that's beautiful.

Denise (01:05:57):
been kind of a series of in some cases, exploring and finding out
like, oh, I didn't know I could do that.
but I could do that.
that's kind of again,like the through line.
that's, I think, the importanceof getting in touch with, getting
empowered, finding something.
Maybe it's not directly doingsomething to, you know, dismantle

(01:06:19):
the toxic river, maybe it's something
else.
But then that will guide you to aplace of inner strength, that you
didn't know that you had, and that youcould start to address those things.

the, the irony is that these things might seem like it's a, it's
a distraction or it's trite, or it'slike how in the world is like, screen
printing gonna change the world orwhatever, but it's like, it's the same
as planning, vegetation you put in your,
that soaks up the toxicity,everything is connected.

(01:06:52):
Right.
And, and so there is this, you know, theecosystem that is, it's like, Oh, the
reason why the plants are, are failingdown here is because like, you know, 30
miles upstream There, you know, there'sthis like kind of gross industrial
plan or whatever, like, so it's all.
It's all connected, evenif it feels very indirect,

(01:07:14):
and it doesn't necessarily feel likeyou're, you're fighting things head on.
That's like a bit of my likefrustration with like, a lot of the
response to the toxic river is thatit's like, ah, yes, we need to fight
fire, with, with fire, and we needto fight everything, like, head on.
And don't get me wrong, like, they'reabsolutely Like, people need to be doing

(01:07:37):
that, certain people are wired for that,and they're like really good at it.
I learned through the, like,the last round of this, like,
I'm actually not wired that way,like, I'm, I'm not a fighter.
Like but I think that there's there'sa lot of danger in the, if you're not
attacking this, if you're not outraged bythis, if you're not addressing it head on.

(01:07:59):
Then, uh, you're part of the problem.
And I think that there's like a lotof ways that we can, we can show up
and, and, and counter the negativitythat, that isn't maybe as, as obvious
as like, I'm gonna go toe to toewith this, with this issue head on.
And that stuff that feels like it'sagain, like a little like, Oh, I'm

(01:08:22):
just tinkering off to the side.
I love how you said it.
It's like, what you're doing isyou're cultivating this sense of
self-empowerment, of this ability,this, this, attitude that allows you
to start showing up 'cause literallyonce you do it once, obviously, and

(01:08:43):
you're the one that wrote the book onit, but it's like, it's always there.
But like, it gets easier.
It gets easier over time witheach rep right with each round.
By the time you're building a deck foryour hot tub, you're not super worried.

Denise (01:08:58):
right.

what I mean?
Like, it's, it's like, itgets, it gets easier over time.
And like, I think like anyone listeningto this, you already have, have these
wins and you can do a little exercise thatbasically is like, just crawl back through
the last couple years of your life,

Denise (01:09:16):
Yep.

done some really.
important things thatyou should be proud of.
You've built something, you've createdsomething, you've showed up in a certain
way, done some sort of charitable deed,like guarantee you that there's that.
And then, so the question thenbecomes the, just like you, I
like, I love that through line.

(01:09:37):
of your like, co. once youget it, once you get like,
Oh, that's the feedback loop.
Like I could do this.
I could then extend that to the nextthing and extend that to the next thing.
Like, that's how you grow.
That's how you show up.
That's how you live authentically.
And in a way that, that kind of snowballsupon itself in a positive direction.

Denise (01:10:00):
Absolutely,
percent.

perhaps unsurprisingly, uh, as a musician, I'm always super
interested in learning about hearingnew music and especially music that
other people are excited about.
So what music are you excitedabout or that you, that you want
more people to, to know about?

Denise (01:10:21):
so, band crush has actually been going on for the last five years,
you know how there's sometimes there'smusic that you listen to and it's like,
It's like you just feel like it's gotin a worn blanket it's so soothing and
calming and my latest group that hasbeen doing that for me is Moon Child.

(01:10:43):
first favorite of
theirs is called Little Ghost,the second one, Voyager.
third one is Plea Please.
Re, and then the fourth oneafter that is their first album.
so basically, I like all Start withLittle Ghost and then work Your Way, kind
of just backwards through their albums.
like soulful and stuff, but, whenyou see them, you're just like, these

(01:11:06):
people are making this music and it'sjust like, yeah, they are, They're

Their album art looks amazing.
Like, it's, it's like,it's got a whole aesthetic.

Denise (01:11:14):
awesome.

Beautiful.

Denise (01:11:17):
three folks and, um, they're all multi instrumentalists
It's just warm and great.
And I love the boy and the harmonies,everything It's just so, so good.
go and find some moon child andlisten to it and it'll change
your life and you're welcome.

beautiful.
that is such a perfect way to end,so go listen to some Moon Child.
get inspired, uh, and, and Denise,one, one last thing is like, where
could people find you or what do youwanna draw people's attention to of
like sort of what, what you're up tobesides, or or maybe including your,
your forthcoming cast iron, uh, class.

Denise (01:11:59):
So, uh, people can still find me@denisejacobs.com.
I think the place that I would probablybe posting the most publicly is like
LinkedIn and maybe potentially someon Facebook, but not so much anymore,
and occasionally on Instagram.
most definitely what you shoulddo is if you're interested in My

(01:12:21):
book, banish Your Inner Critic,of course, you should get it.
but also, I have several courses onLinkedIn Learning, that are fantastic.
And so, if you have a premiumLinkedIn account, then you should
be also getting LinkedIn Learning.
If not, you can always docourses a la carte, But I have

(01:12:41):
a baner in a Critic Course.
a Creative Collaboration course,Developing Creativity as a leader.
the Business case for Creativity,Unique Ways to Generate Creative Ideas
and Productive Creativity, well asHacking the Creative Brain as part
of the creativity every day series.

(01:13:02):
So all of those courses arenice digestible ways of, getting
to know me and my content.
and then, if you need a greatkeynote speaker for your conference
to talk about creativity and orthe inner critic, I'm your woman

And or cast iron

Denise (01:13:21):
And okay,

skillets and gardens.

Denise (01:13:23):
I could do like a little, a little, uh, breakout session on

Uh, that's so great.
Well, thank you so muchfor coming on here.
You were the first person that I'mlike, I need to talk to Denise,
like I, and I'm so glad that I did
well, thank you.
Thanks so much for being here.
Thanks for listening.
And, uh, until next time, take care.
Thanks.

Denise (01:13:44):
Brad.

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