Unlocking Creativity and Positivity with Jessica Hische

Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
Welcome to Wake Up Excited.
In this episode I talkwith Jessica Hische.
Jessica is a creative powerhouse.
She's created an illustrated children'sbooks, designed postage stamps,
done lettering for West Andersonmovies, improved countless logos,
and her new venture is invoicingand payment software for creative

(00:33):
professionals called Studio Works.
Jessica and I go way back andfrom the moment I met her, I
knew we were kindred spirits.
She is energetic and multidisciplinaryexcitable, and is one of the few people
that I really feel shares my weirdblend of both sincerity and goofiness.
So, uh, I loved our conversation.

(00:55):
We discussed a lot of things.
We talked about using positivityand enthusiasm to fight all the
negativity engulfing our world.
We talked about ADHD and mental health.
We talked about balancing ourpersonal responsibilities with our
responsibilities to the world at large.
We talked about engaging with andimproving your local community.

(01:18):
We talked about creativity,breadth, and depth and creativity
over time, and a whole lot more.
Before we get into our conversation,I wanted to say that Wake Up
Excited is a real labor of loveand is totally self-funded.
So if you enjoy these conversationsand you want to support the
show, support me and my work.
I'd love it if you checked out ouronline courses bradfrost.com/courses.

(01:43):
We have courses on design tokens, atomicdesign with a whole bunch more on the way.
And we're really committed to helpingthe world's designers and developers
and anyone making websites andapps really level up their skills.
So I'd love it if you checked outour courses at bradfrost.com/courses.
Now, without further ado, here's myconversation with Jessica Hische.

Brad (02:05):
Jessica.
Hi.

Jessica Hische (02:07):
How's it going?

Brad (02:08):
to converse?

I am ready to converse.

Brad (02:11):
what are you excited about?
What are, what has you waking up excited?
What'd you wake up excitedthis morning about?

Well, a couple of things.
I went skiing thisweekend and it was epic.
And now I am really excited to be a skier.
Um, I skied growing up and I haven'treally had a chance to go very much
'cause I have three children and they havevarying degrees of enthusiasm for sport.
Uh, but they all, all three of 'emdid all day lessons and they all

(02:40):
hung out and me and Russ got to skiall day for two whole days in a row.
And I was feeling super cool aboutit and it made me wanna go out
and I'm gonna buy myself skis.
I'm a grownup.
I don't change sizesnow so I can own skis.
And I bought season passes for next year.
'cause they're super cheap ifyou buy them the year before.
And yeah, so that's one thing that's myli that's my life thing I'm excited about.

(03:05):
my work thing I'm excited about is, um.
I've been building this thing calledStudio Works with my friend Chris Shiflet.
And, uh, Sean and Nick aretwo super bro developer folks.
And, uh, it's been epic and really funto work on and I feel like my brain

(03:25):
is now, I'm like, you know that memewhere it's like the like shriveled
head guy and then it's bigger andthen it's like self-actualization guy.
I feel like that's.
Me, uh, and uh, and then I launchedthis week a, online community
for it that I didn't tell anyoneabout before I launched it.
So it was like a surprise.
And that's been super fun.

(03:47):
And there's already like three,like almost 400 people in it and
it's been really active and we'redoing like Zoom hangs and people are
sharing resources and posting eventsand stuff and it's really cool.
I'm just really happy.
So I just wanna get a bunch ofstudents in there so I can just be
everybody's big sister and just beanswering all their little questions

Brad (04:07):
Beautiful.
You figured it out.

I know, everyone's like, what do you do to mentor people?
And my answer is always very wishy-washyand being like, well, I talk at
conferences and I answer people's emails.
And so, uh, I feel like now I canhave a bit more of a direct line
towards helping people, which is nice.
I am also excited to just make a verycasual, fun place to hang out on the

(04:29):
internet so that it doesn't have tobe in the places where everyone feels
they have to be in performative mode.
cause there's not reallygood casual hangs.
And you know, even on all the fun,uh, texty places like Blue Sky and
all that, everyone's like kind ofbummed out and wants to talk about
being bummed out and wants to talkabout being worried about stuff.
And I just wanna hang out and notbe bummed out for a little while.

(04:54):
That's my goal.

Brad (04:55):
if I were to run my own conversations through an AI modeler and
to make it sound like Jessica Hische Iwould say the exact same thing as you.
There's a reason why I wanted you tocome on this show, because I think
we're wired very, very, very similarly.

(05:17):
I think that that, uh, our, ourconversations that have now spanned.
Over, I think a decade or no, like

Well, probably close.
Probably close to two decades.
Yeah.

Brad (05:30):
what's wild is what you just described.
I wrestle with this and I'm curious toget your take on it because I wrestle
with it because on one hand everythingyou just described sounds almost
like charmingly, simple and naive.

(05:50):
But I think we understandthat there is a deep, level of
profundity underneath all of that,

my big like ethos of the times and has been, you know, since
2016 basically is we all, especiallyus the like internet generation.
I got really excited about alwaysbe thinking on like a global
scale, like global community,global reach, global everything.

(06:23):
But, and then when you think aboutproblems in the world, you're
always thinking like, we need toattack it from like the top down.
And then that just like is so intimidatingand doesn't really work and mostly just
makes people crumble and feel upsetand everybody forgets that actually
just like the small positive thingsthat you can do, including just like

(06:46):
protecting your own mental health andhelping other people protect theirs.
That ends up making an actualdifference in the world because
people that are crushed by.
Depressing things or full of anxietyabout the estate of everything.
What they don't do is takeany action to make it better.

(07:08):
They just crawl into a hole and feel bad.
And that's, I mean, that's kind of thedefault way to do it, but if you feel
like resort like full of resourcesand you feel capable, you're much
more likely to go, oh man, you know,like, I'm done with my work right now.
What can I do to like do a helpfulthing or make a thing that like impacts

(07:30):
other people or donate to a thing orvolunteer for a thing or whatever.
Like you need to feel wholein order to do those things.
And so I think it's actually justreally important to make people focus
on positive local community stuffinstead of just spending all of their

(07:51):
time looking at the big picture doomand gloom, because there's always big
picture doom and gloom to look at.

Brad (07:57):
Yeah.
And, and that big picture, doom andgloom is a relatively new phenomenon.
Like the fact that in between all ofour cat memes are slotted in pictures
of a children's hospital gettingbombed and then here's another cat
meme, like, like it's messed up.
It's like super messed up.

(08:18):
So we have it, it's kind of no wonderwhy we are so scrambled up and, and
just absolutely ripped apart mentally,and that, that that guilt, that that
overwhelming crushing guilt thatjust is nothing but shed energy.
It just vibrates out.

(08:39):
It just burns off into the ether.
That's like, that's how I view it.
It's just this, this anxious, vibratingenergy that doesn't go anywhere.
It doesn't do anything.
It's just, it's

Totally.
Yeah.

Brad (08:51):
It's

I mean, I think we all, we all like know people and
like family members that like watchtoo much news and they like see it
as a positive to be so informed.
But to me it's like if thatinformation is not translating
to action, like what is it doing?
You know, like if all you're doingis absorbing all the ills of the

(09:14):
world and it's not translatingto action, you're basically just
like punishing yourself, you know?
So it's almost like you have tocontrol what you let in so that you
can actually still maintain the abilityto do something about it, you know?
I was at an event recently calledum, Paradiso, which is put on

(09:34):
by one of the founders of Off.
Stefan Sagmeister gave a talk there, andI've seen him talk a million, billion
times, but it was a talk about, arecent, like project sabbatical project
that he did called now is better.
and he basically just because so manypeople around him were talking about
how we're living in terrible timesand all these terrible things were

(09:54):
happening, he decided to sort of do aresearch project about like, what is
terrible, like, like, you know, like.
Let's look at the dataof like all of the stuff.
And it basically is just like, nowis the best possible time to exist.
And the thing that was reallyinteresting about it is he was on
like a, uh, a podcast or like the newsinterview or something and they were

(10:19):
like, yeah, but how do you, peoplein Ukraine probably feel about that?
And he was like, yeah, well what ifyou're being like actively bombed?
Obviously, like it's hard tosay like, now's the best time.
But what ended up happening isa bunch of folks in the Ukraine
reached out to him and asked himto like put on a show of this work.
And he said of all of the placesthat the show ended up being, the

(10:40):
best response was in the Ukraine.
'cause they just like neededhope and positivity so much.
And so, I mean that's just like amazing.
Like, I mean, it's one datapoint, but it's like really good
proof that like when you're.
You're the most receptive to likehope when you're going through
tough stuff, you know, like that'swhen you really reach for it.

(11:00):
That's why people get religious whenthey get cancer and all kinds of stuff.
You're like reaching out for like, whatis the positive I can find in this?

Brad (11:07):
and, and we need to be of the positive of the other end of the spectrum.
I feel like there's justbeen this overwhelming.
Focus the negative and even in the, theresistance to one side of the negative,
it's all, it continues to be negative.

(11:30):
and there's this, we need to bereminded of like fun and the joy and
the, the great things in life and,and laughter and, and all of, and
music and, and all of these things.
And deprive ourselves or we're like, I,I feel like the overwhelming majority

(11:50):
of people are like waiting for momentof calm to, to be able to claim
that or to be able to pursue that.
And it's like it ain'tcoming like you, it like,

Yeah.

Brad (12:02):
say that there aren't mac macro level like ebbs and flows to things, but
like you have to create that for yourself.
No one else is going to giveyou permission to do that.
And I feel like people like, like us.
that is our kind of like mission or dutyis to kind of help remind people of that.

(12:23):
I don't know if

Yeah.

Brad (12:24):
same, but

Oh, totally.
there's two things.
One, I've been like workshoppingthe right way to say this quote, it
stems from that thing of Not being aperson who's capable of actually being
like an on the ground world saver.
You know what I mean?
Like, I have three little kids.
I can't go to the protests and Ican't be like, you know, doing a
lot of really active stuff, and I'malso like, des design feels like a

(12:50):
selfish discipline where you're justlike helping people sell things.
You know?
Like it's all, it's all that.
but the, the thing that I, that I returnto, which is very similar to what you're
talking about, is, and this is the kindof quote that I'm working on, uh, which
is that some people are born to savethe world and some people are born to
show us why the world is worth saving.

(13:12):
And so it's like the same thing of like,you need to see the beauty in the world
in order to have the, like, fortitude tosave it and, and the desire to save it.
'cause why would youwanna save a shitty place?
You know, like you have to believethis is a good place to save it.

Brad (13:29):
there's So, I, I love that.
I love that.
You good, good work shoppingthere that, no, no notes.

There's also, you know, I, this is a weird thing,
but I have a strange appreciationfor social media algorithms now.
you know, like everybody hates thealgorithm, and the algorithm destroys
our lives and blah, blah, blah, blah.
But for me,

Brad (13:51):
Mm-hmm.

thing that was a weird side effect of the algorithm is
that the algorithm favors negativity.
Right.
if you post about negative stuff, it'smuch more likely to pop to the top
of the charts just because it's likepeople wanna know about negative stuff.
We just have this like innate thingof like disaster looking and whatever.
And what happened is in early internet,everyone saw everything that you said.

(14:17):
So if you posted 10 things andeight of them were positive and two
of them were negative, people gota really good understanding about
what your life was like, right?
But now if you post those same 10things, the likelihood of people
seeing the positive stuff is way less.
So they're much more likely to seethe negative stuff and then get a
false idea of what your reality is.

(14:38):
So it actually changes the way that you.
Look at the things that you sharebecause you're like, oh, if I share
these negative things too often oryou know, like I won't say at all.
'cause I think it's important toshare some, but it actually will
end up not only coloring your viewof your own life, but also coloring

(15:00):
other people's view of your life.
And I think that it sort of forcesyou into this thing of looking at all
the positives and posting those, butnot necessarily in like a, a way that
needs to be about projecting a falsity.
You know, it's actually aboutprojecting what is the truth.
'cause the truth is actually that youhad an overwhelming positive amount

(15:24):
of stuff to say, and the negativestuff was a small portion of that.
And so it makes you actuallynotice that a lot more.

Brad (15:31):
you're describing an active resistance to the affordances
of these algorithms, right?
You, you are like, you are like, I willshow them, and, and you're using it as
a, as a lens to be more conscious ofyour actions rather than just falling
prey to the affordances of those things,which is just, yeah, the negativity,

(15:55):
snowball, and like, yeah, we're allgonna dog pile on to, to get out there
and throw an overwhelmingly unabashed,enthusiastic, fun, funny thing that's a
freaking act of resistance right there.

I feel when you say like, enthusiasm too.
I love that word.
Um, because one of the things thathas been really interesting about
becoming a grownup in the world is just.
The level of fucks you give dropping off.
And then you also just realize thatthings that you felt like allergic to

(16:37):
as a young person when you were liketrying to like you were like really in
control, like trying to control yourcool, you're like, I need to project
only this certain thing, whatever.
It just all goes away and, or at least itdoes for the few of us that have reached
that top of the pyramid feeling great.
Um, but like there were so many things.

(16:57):
That I would've seen as like dorkyor cringe or whatever, that now I'm
like, anytime that I get like a cringereaction in my body, it feels like a
moment where I have to do like personalwork to like work through the cringe.
Instead of that, it's about like beinganti, the other thing, it's actually

(17:18):
like I'm grateful for this, for pointingout this cringe reaction that I now
have to like work through and break upbecause it's bad to have that reaction.
And so when I see people in the world thathave like zero, like cringe reaction, I'm
just like, these are the ascendant humans.
Like these are the ones thathave made it to the top.

(17:40):
Yeah.

Brad (17:41):
yes, yes.
That, that like.
The, the utmost sincerity.
Oh my God, you, you love this.
This movie that I think is thisover the top, just explosion
fest, big budget, whatever.
But like, you, you love that.
And like, I love that.

(18:02):
You love that like, like that,that is making you happy.
And like, I don't give a shitabout the nature of can I, can
I, you're like the perfect personsince we're workshopping things.
and it is exactly what you're describing.
I have this idea for a bigart installation in fact,

(18:22):
one second I got props.
this, I went to GoodwillLive, laugh, love, give, let

I love it.

Brad (18:30):
be done in love.
Right?
Like, as letter art person,whatever, and, but it's, it's
exactly that level of cringe, We, wedescribe that shit as basic, right?
Live, laugh, love.
Ha ha.
It's a meme, it's a joke.
like what I've done back to like, those,those feelings of like, ah, yeah, Let's

(18:54):
all like, look at this stuff and laughand then like, you pick at that and it's
like, what does this actually say here?
It's like, laugh, love, my God.
That's like some of the most profoundshit that like, it's, it's the truth.
It's right in front of

Yeah.

Brad (19:11):
Like it

I.

Brad (19:12):
is.
So, so what I wanna do is I wanna doa go, go to all these Goodwills and
like, like round up all of the livelaugh, love stuff, and I want to do
just like a giant fucking wall of it and

I love it.

Brad (19:26):
do some cool stuff, like gutsy it up a little bit.
But it's just like, and that's the titleof the piece is with utmost Sincerity.
And it's just like, recontextualizing,this stuff that like fell in.
Who, where did that go?
Like, jaded, cynical kind of horse.
Shitty.
Like, like let's, let's actuallylet people like things like,

(19:49):
let's actually celebrate that.
Like, like, uh, that's I think one ofthe, the, the most unfortunate side
effects of like the first generationof like social media is that there
ended up being this like cynicismthat took root, that it's like, you
can't actually like something, or wecan't, like, we gotta find the angle.

(20:10):
Like, let me, I don'tlike this being up here.
I gotta take it down a notch or two.
It's like, let's like who, whosays, you know, like, when did

Yeah.

Brad (20:21):
and how did we all agree to that?

one of the things that I feel like I am hopeful for with the
younger generations that I feel like I'veseen a bit of, but I don't know if it's
like a regional thing, which is that itdoesn't seem cool to be mean anymore.
when you meet kids that are likemiddle schoolers or in high school or
whatever, like I feel like I haven'tseen a lot of like, oh yeah, they're

(20:46):
the cool kid because they're mean.
Like, if someone's mean, everyonekind of has like a, that person
must be going through somestuff, you know, like whatever.
And I love this, and I hope that that'snot just like a Bay Area regional thing,
because obviously like I'm in a bubble.
And so it's a different,different situation here, but.
I don't know, like it was so coolto be mean when we were teenagers

(21:09):
and in our twenties and like themean kids always seemed to like
rise to the top of the pile.
And if it's not cool to bemean anymore, that'd be great.
That'd be so great for everyone.

Brad (21:19):
It would be interesting.
Like I, I, I genuinely don't know.
I I, I'm in my own little cul-de-sacbubble here outside of Pittsburgh when
all of the teenagers on our little streetare like the sweetest, kindest people.
And I have no idea if like that'san anomaly or if that's, yeah.

(21:40):
Is that the exceptionor, or is that the role?
but I, but I would have to thinkthere is some semblance of, let's
say like mental health being more oflike a front and center thing that's
like a, like that's a live thing.
There's like, I think a lot moreof like the psychology well,

(22:02):
positive psychology, but just anunderstanding of psychology in general.
Like it's no longer, like the first likehundred years of, of psychology was just
all like weird Freud stuff and like allthis like very like pathological stuff.
And I feel like we are now living in amoment where kids are growing up with
like some, like, my daughter comeshome from school, I'm sure your kids

(22:24):
are the same way, where it's like,there's some stuff that's just like
really good emotional intelligencestuff and just like good, like
holistic, like wellbeing kind of stuff.
And my

Yeah.

Brad (22:37):
that that taught and there's, there's more of an awareness around it.
And there's, there also seems to be a bitmore of like a counter, momentum swing
away from like helicopter parenting alittle bit and like a, a real reckoning
with like, we kind of need kids to.
You know, develop and, and, andgrow and, and learn how to be

(23:01):
resilient on their own rather thanus trying to design that for them.
Um, so I don't know.
I maybe we're just optimisticand maybe like most

Yeah.

Brad (23:12):
are like, no, everybody's still shitty.

Yeah.
They're like, no, the teenagersdestroy everything and La
la, which is also true, so

Brad (23:20):
guess you'll find out, you'll, you'll find out soon enough.
I'll find out soon enoughand we'll report back.
what's like the biggest thing thatyour kids have, like, taught you about
the emotional landscape or the, the,the spiritual realm or like what?
Like, because the lensby which kids exist.

Mm-hmm.

Brad (23:40):
talking about with just like enthusiasm and positivity
and boundlessness, and almostlike a kind of a joyful naivety.
you're confronted with that everyday, I, I say confronted, but whenever
you're exposed to that every day,that radically has changed me.
I don't, I don't know.
Like what, what sort of lessonsyou've learned from, from your kids.

I've got some really different personalities in
my household, so I. My youngest islike, I love everything and everyone,
I'm always happy about everything.
I just, I'm just here to party.
Like, that's his whole vibe.
the thing that I learned throughhim, which I already know in myself
'cause I am also this person, isthat just like showing up in the

(24:23):
world with a smile on your facemakes the world better for everyone.
It makes your, your life better andit makes everyone else's life better.
Because my oldest, who is not that, shedefinitely is much more introverted.
She like straight up, likewill just be unresponsive to
adults that are talking to her.
So like if someone gives her a complimentor something, she just kind of stone

(24:45):
faces them and I'll like talk to herabout it afterwards and be like, Hey,
you know, like it's okay for you to likegive a response back or like show some
emotion in your face, like when peoplesay a nice thing to you or whatever.
And then she was just like,what if I don't want to.
And I was like, it's totally fine.
You know, like, that's on you.
Uh, but she'll also like, we'll goto a, we went to like a craft fair or

(25:10):
whatever, and George, who's five willlike walk up to some lady their booth and
be like, I love the earrings you make.
These are the most beautifulbracelets I've ever seen.
You know, like, and just belike really engaging with her.
And then she's just like,take them, take them all.
Like, she just like gives him stuff.
And then Ramona will walk awayand be like, be like, how come

(25:30):
I didn't get any free stuff?
And people always give George free stuff.
And I was like, 'cause George looksat people and makes them feel good.
Like, if you walk out topeople and make them feel nice,
they wanna give you things.
So like, even if that's not anatural thing that you wanna do,
know that that is a useful toolthat you can have with other people.
And so that's been reallyinteresting to sort of see that

(25:51):
play out in like real ways.
And then, um, my middle, isalso a very different person.
Like he's also like a big goofballand a big clown or whatever,
but he's also crazy sensitive.
So he's both that like introvertedsensitive kid, but also like a loud
performer, like always the jokester,like trying to like, you know,

(26:12):
be the, the, the show iest one.
And it's just been really interestingto see both my and Russ's personality
traits come out in different ways in them.
And then also basically both of us beinglike, well, I guess literally everyone
in the family has a DHD and just hasa different flavor of it because we're
just seeing like, you see what the kidsare doing and what they're going through

(26:32):
and being like, oh, that's that you havethat version, and I have this version,
and that's why that one does that.
And so we're just, it's very, like, thething that's really interesting is that
we feel like such a unit, like, you know,like I feel like any, we just like hang
out and everybody gets along really well.
And I think it's because we're all like.
Just neurodivergent in our own ways andso we all really get each other, you know?

(26:58):
And, uh, that's been really interestingto just like be in a household full
of people that kind of all havea similar, you know, affectation.
So

Brad (27:07):
I mean, that's be I, and that's beautiful and like you have
your flavor of that and it's likeeveryone has their flavor of that.
Even if it's like, like some peopleI know, like entire families of
curmudgeons and it's like they're yeah.
Happily curmudgeony together.
And, there's something there whereit's like you can just have that
unspoken, you all know you're, you'rebuilt the same, you're wired the

(27:30):
same, or you have your own, you know,equilibrium, your own like kind of
family organism kind of vibe, and you'rejust able to enjoy it, lean into it.
I think that's beautiful.
That's amazing.
So yeah, you, you have like areal stark contrast between.
Like unbounded enthusiasmand exuberance with this.

(27:56):
Like,

Gloomy teenager, basically.
Yeah.

Brad (28:01):
yeah.
Wait till

We will see though, like, I think, I think the main, the
main thing that's good though is thatshe was born in this time to these
parents because we're, I think she's alsojust way low on the dopamine scale and
we're just gonna try to level her out.
And so we're in the process of doingthat because it's very clear that like
all the, like she's just not happybecause she just doesn't have enough

(28:26):
happy juice going on and just wantsto eat candy all the time and doesn't
sleep very well and is moody blues andI just don't want her to be moody blues.

Brad (28:35):
I love how you frame that, because we've used like, pretty
much the exact same thing.
It's like, like, Melissa's inner master'sprogram to become a therapist, an arts
therapist, and like having been throughwhat we've been through, we have like
this really, you know, acute sense of,of mental health and all of that stuff.

(28:55):
And so when we noticed those thingsthat we're like, oh yeah, monitor it
for now, but like, eventually that'sprobably going to become a thing.
But at, but at the same time it's okay.
It's just, you know, it's, it'sgenes and, and it's wiring, but
it's like you could sort it out.
And the fact that there's this,like you said, like born at this

(29:16):
time to these people is such a gift.
And we, we talk about it all thetime that it's like we know, not to
just be like, what's wrong with you?
Just, you know, sit down and shutup or, you know, like, don't be

Yeah,

Brad (29:28):
crying.
Like it's no, like we, we know thatthere's like a lot going on and,
and, and that there are ways of, ofbeing able to help and, and support

Also.

Brad (29:42):
isn't,

Yeah, and also too,

Brad (29:44):
lifelong

I, yeah, well, I feel like too, like, like medication was
viewed so differently in the ninetiesand 2000 and s than it is now.
And I, it's sort of, I can compare it tolike, trying to do an unmedicated birth,
you know, like where you don't have a, um.

(30:05):
You know, you don't dothe epidural or whatever.
Like, uh, a friend, I tried to to goabout it that way with my first one
and it just like went, it was terrible.
And I had, I just had to lean inand a friend of mine was like,
let me just put it this way.
No one ever has a secondbaby without an epidural.
They might do it the first timeand then the second time they're

(30:26):
like, Nope, let's just go for it.
And I think there's this like thing wherewe feel like we have to try the absolute
hardest way to do something first,because we see the medication as a cop
out when really it's like all of thosehard things don't actually get you to,
it's like a constant maintenance cycle.

(30:46):
You know, like my mom also had like mentalhealth stuff when I was growing up and
has dealt with like, she has very severe ADHD clearly, but she's undiagnosed and um,
had a bunch of depression and all kindsof things and she was like, yeah, the
only thing that worked for me was like.
Intensely exercising fortwo to four hours per day.
And I was like, who can do that?
You know, like, like, you know, likethere are things you can do to like

(31:10):
solve the problem, like mostly whereyou can get yourself like 70 to 80%
there, but it involves like gargantuanlifestyle changes that don't necessarily
mesh with modern life or having ajob or having kids and all that.
And so you do what you can to likemitigate things, but also like, I feel

(31:32):
like people just cut themselves offfrom the ability to actually like solve
these problems in a much more like easyway by just like trying out rebalancing
your brain chemicals, you know?
Because I think there's just this wholething of like, yeah, I mean, I thought
for sure it was gonna totally, I.

(31:53):
Change who I like, changemy personality or something.
And I just feel like, oh my God,look, I am like back to being my best
self that I was like before I startedhaving crazy hormone problems or uh, or
like my best self when I wasn't beingtriggered by anxiety and was getting
great sleep and was doing whatever.
I'm not getting great sleep, but my brainis like in the same place as if I am.

(32:14):
But yeah.

Brad (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, you, you are healthier.
It's like, it, it is, the, the analogyI use is it's eyeglasses, right?
And, and coming, coming back to theexercising two to four hours, it's like,
yeah, well, I might not need glasses if Ijust redesign my entire life to, to make
it so that I could just kind of see thingsif I just sort of stand so far away.

(32:37):
And if I,

And squint a certain way and yeah.

Brad (32:40):
way and like, like.
And, and, and put this on my car in abig magnifying glass on my, like, it's
like, or just get some eyeglasses butit's like there's an uneven understanding
and appreciation for what this classof Dr It's, it's very misunderstood.
It's very stigmatized still, or whatever.

(33:01):
The stigma part, I don't understand.
The misunderstood part is fullyunderstandable, because even the
people that make this stuff, they'relike, how do, how do SSRIs work?
They're like,

Yeah.
I dunno.

Brad (33:12):
okay.

happens.

Brad (33:13):
they're

Yeah.

Brad (33:14):
we have our theories.
Like we, you know, we, we think it's this.
So it's like, I, I understand maybe likea lack of understanding, but the, but
the, the, the more like stigma aroundit, it does feel, it feels generational.
It feels.
It there, there's a lot wrapped up init, but at the same time, I'm hopeful

(33:36):
back to like the, the younger kids,I think that it's, it's not just
like slamming Ritalin in their mouthanymore, you know, just as a, as a,
you know, settle down kind of thing.
It's a, it seems like more deliberateand, and designed and whatever, but

I'm slamming Ritalin and it's great.
And so like the main thing being, uh,I didn't understand How, like, you
know, and I, I, it feels weird to likego and get my medicine now because
it is, it's a controlled substanceand it's a big fucking pain in the
butt to get my prescription filled.
Like every time I go to the pharmacy,

Brad (34:13):
part.

I hate it.
I have to call in every month andthere's always shortages, but I can't
ask the pharmacy if they have it'cause they're not allowed to tell me.
So sometimes I have to call, like mydoctor has to send in prescriptions
to like eight different pharmaciesuntil I find one that has it.
But it even feels like, then, like,I'm like, do you know what this does?
Like it, all that it does ismake me not a hummingbird.

(34:37):
Like that's all that it does.
Like I, if I feel like I'm in a yoga classall day when I'm on it and when I'm not
on it, I'm like, Ooh, what about that?
Ooh, what about that?
No, what we should do, we should do that.
Oh, we should do that.
And it just like non-sequiturjump, jump junk I, I get that.
If you're not like us, uh, or me,then it makes you psychotically wired.

(34:58):
But like, I get way crazierof a wiry effect from caffeine
than I do from Ritalin.
Ritalin does not make me wired at all.
I don't get wired, but like,if I have two cups of coffee,
I'm like, like crazy buzzy.

Brad (35:15):
It's so weird how it hits everybody differently too.
And my doctor was like, she's like this,uh, this, because I'm on Adderall xr.
And she's like, she's like, and werecently are, we're playing around with
putting like a second dose in uh, thismight keep you up all night, or you might
sleep better than you've ever seen before.

(35:36):
Or maybe it has no change.
And it is just like,okay, sure, that's fine.
But I like, I like what you're sayingthat there is a, there, there's
like a clarity in your tendencies.
I 'cause like, it's notlike a diminishment.

(35:58):
Of,

Mm.

Brad (35:58):
skills.
And, and I wanna kind of pick at thattoo, because like it's been so fun
just kinda watching you from afar.
'cause like we, we kind of like yearthat was, like, let's say like late
2010, let's call it, I don't know.
we're there, we're kindof at like the same spot.
We're both like, you know,go, you know, and, and, and

Making stuff.
Let's do stuff.
Yeah.

Brad (36:24):
things.
Yeah, yeah.
But, but like that, makingstuff and making varied things
in different kinds of things.
Right.
And this is like an, it's an interestingthing that I'm sure you've heard about,
but curious to get your take on it assomeone who has really benefited from
hummingbird approach to things is a gift.

(36:46):
Right?
It's like, it's a gift so longas it doesn't get in the way.
And that's what the medicine, in my view,like for, for me personally, the medicine
keeps the hummingbird moving towardsactual feeders have actual nutrients
in it versus just like flitting aroundgoing here, there, and everywhere.

(37:09):
It's like it's a focusing effect,but it doesn't diminish the spirit.

Yeah.
To me, um, I, no, I feel the same way.
I think the one thing is.
In losing the hummingbird brain, Ido lose a bit of the like, like this,
this, this, this, this, this, this.
If I'm like, on a real tear, like everynow and then, I would get, basically
get in like a manic creative tear whereI could just like, have a billion ideas

(37:36):
flying at me and, and a lot of themwere like worth pursuing or they were
all contained within the same thing.
But that happens so rarely that it'snot worth living my life for that.
You know what I mean?
Like when in the, in the prior days Iwas, when I could be in control of my
own time, I would just like hop fromproject, project, project, project to

(37:59):
like make, keep the, um, enthusiasm going.
And so like the whole procrastworking thing was basically just
a big A DHD coping mechanism.
Um, but now that I'm a parent and my,and my work days are more contained
and I, and it's a little unpredictableabout whether or not I can go into
that hyperfocus mode or not, I need tomake sure that when I'm at my office

(38:22):
that I'm not being diverted becausethe diversions aren't helpful anymore.
Like, those are really helpfulwhen you're working like 14 hours
a day and you can just like divertand then divert and then divert.
But when you're only working for likesix to nine hours a day, then the,
the diversions are like an absolutewrench thrown into the whole thing.

(38:44):
And so.
Yeah.
I mean, and also too, like the, the otherthing that I found is like, is similar to
the four hours of exercise thing, like.
My thing is I am so much less anxious if Ican just like be in perpetual motion, like
working on stuff, you know, like that.
I always have something to do.
You know, I'm a very busy person.

(39:04):
I just have to like keep busy, keepbusy, keep moving forward like a shark,
you know, like just have to keep moving.
Otherwise, I feel like I'm gonna die.
And when I don't have thecapacity to do that all the time,
my anxiety builds up and so.
What, and that's because all thatenergy that I would've been spending
on all of those outlets is buildingup and doesn't have a place to go.

(39:26):
And so the taking a stimulant, liketaking the Ritalin, what it does is it
dissipates that energy that's built up.
And so I think like.
If I could live, like there's probablya world in which I'm no longer on
stimulants when I'm not so on top ofthe kids or traveling or like whatever.
Like if I can just do what I want all thetime, I probably don't need it as much.

(39:47):
But I feel like now what it really does isjust help that energy disperse so that I,
that doesn't turn into horrible anxiety.
'cause like that's whatit feels like to me.
And a friend of mine was like, 'causeI was kind of back and forth about
whether or not I should try stimulantsand she was like, dude, don't, don't
sleep on how much it can impact anxiety.

(40:08):
Like if you're like an an anxious person.
It had the biggest impact for mein terms of anxiety more so than
taking S-S-R-I-S-N-R-I and I, andI found that to be really true.
Like, you know, like the, Idefinitely feel like the SNRI.
What that does is kind of like, nothave me in these weird, like false
reality shifts where I like have afalse belief about what's going on.

(40:31):
Because like every now and then youkind of like have that sort of like,
wait, what is, what was that about?
You know, like the, those kindof feelings and I, and those
just don't happen anymore.
And I think it's because I'm like waymore leveled out because of the SNRI.
But in terms of just that like low humof anxiety that kind of builds and builds
and builds, the, the stimulants are what?
Knock that out.
Like if I, if I'm feeling kind oflike ugh in the afternoon and I

(40:54):
take a little boost of the Ritalin,I'm just like, ah, now I feel good.
Now I can do stuff.
Yeah.

Brad (41:00):
Yeah.
No, that's, that's wild.
That's a, that, that was very,that was very descriptive and
like I, I was following along.
It's like that articulation of yourinner energy levels, it's like, and
again, like every body is differentand I think that that's always like
something that's like worth pointing out.
And that's yet another thing that Iget frustrated with when it comes to

(41:21):
people talking about mental health isthat they're like, Hey, I tried that.
Or even like therapy and stuff.
They're like, yeah, I tried that and.
Didn't work.
Uh, and it's like, well, on.
Like, it's like this,this binary kind of thing.
It's like, it's like you,

Yeah.

Brad (41:37):
have to find the right, the equilibrium with, with anything, right?
Like it's, it's all about sort ofbalances and iterating over things in
order to get to a place where you'relike feeling like your optimal self
and you owe that to yourself, right?
Like, I, I, again, like, I feel likea lot of the conversations that I have

(41:58):
with people that are or pushing back onthat are like, they're like, no, but I
like wanna stay in that like, low humanxiety state, or I wanna feel like that
energy's building up with nowhere to go.
And you're like, but do youlike, it's, it's like, what,

Well, you know, it depends if it, if the way that it works
for them is that they're baking themselfa coiled spring, and then they have
a place to release that coil, great.
Then yeah, I mean that's when it doesfeel like a superpower because it's
like that energy builds up and thenyou just constantly are outputting it.
But once you get older and you don't havethe capacity to do that as much anymore.

(42:40):
Yeah.
I mean it's like a different thing.
And with therapy it's also like,like therapy as an adult is so
hard because our brains are likerigid stone structures, right?
We've like built these pathwaysover and over and over again.
We've walked the same roots over and overagain in terms of our thought patterns.

(43:03):
So trying to like unmake thosewalkways is so fucking hard.
It's like, it's like you're in, it'slike you're on a trail in the woods and
there's a trail that has been walkedfor centuries and you're now starting
to walk down a slightly different trailthat has not been walked for centuries.
And of course, everything wantsto divert down the centuries

(43:26):
long path for a very long time.
And it just takes so muchtime to build that new path.
And that's why like the whole, uh,psychedelic assisted stuff is really cool
because it does allow you to like makethose deep new pathways much quicker.
yeah, I mean like, I lovedtherapy, but it took four years

(43:47):
to like unmake some bad mental
pathways of behaviors.
Like it was the slowest, mostarduous, most not noticeable
thing in the whole world.
And it worked.
And it's like, because I did it, it'sgonna stick 'cause I did the hard thing.
And the, and the pathways are thereversus trying to like race to a good

(44:07):
answer and then it can just bounceright back to the, to the old ways.
But it's, I mean, who can commit to that?
It was like $175 a week for four years.
That's like, you know, it'slike five or six grand a year.
You know, like it's not, nothing.
Like not everybody can do that,

Brad (44:23):
and, and again and there, and there's very uneven results.
And it's, it's funny you broughtup the psychedelic speak, whatever
you're talking about, the two to fourhours of exercise the same thing.
It's like that's, that's immediatelywhere my head went is it's like, oh
yeah, you could do years of talk therapyor going to meditate these intensive

(44:44):
multi-day meditation retreats and spenda year long, like years long practice.
It's like, or this way that hook will helpyou jump those neural canyons a lot fast.

I wish I
could have stuck doing more psychedelicsbecause I did see this like outrageous
benefit when I first started doing it.
It's like I was so flat, like notlike depressed, but just kind of like.
Everything just felt like a slog.
You know?
Like thi like just everything, you know?
I was just like, Ugh.
You know, like the kids ask you toplay outside and you're like, Ugh.

(45:16):
Like the first reaction is, no thank you.
I just wanna sit here and do my own thinginstead of like, wow, that sounds fun.
Of course, it's a beautiful day.
Like whatever.

Brad (45:25):
Yeah.

When I started doing mushrooms pretty regularly,
I was just like, does anyoneknow how gorgeous trees are?
You know, like just even when, when Iwasn't like, like in that space, it just
kind of filtered out into my whole life.
I was just full of wonder all of a sudden,and I would've been keep doing them.
But I had this issue I don't havelike the best memory because I think

(45:47):
I went through some like tricky yuckystuff when I was a teenager, and I
just like don't have great recallfor a lot of my, like young memories.
But what, but I have incrediblyvivid dreams almost all the time.
Like my dreams are veryreal and I do a lot.
I know that I'm dreaming sometimes,you know, where I can be like, you
know, in the dream and I'm, I feellike I'm just watching it like a movie.

(46:10):
Um, yeah, it's like lucid dreaming.
I don't necessarily have controlin the dream, but I'm like aware
that I'm dreaming and it's justbecause my sleep is like so yucky
that I'm sort of in REM a lot.
And what happened from the mushrooms?
And this wasn't like while on mushrooms.
This just happened forlike weeks following.
Is that.
My brain started to mix in memories anddetails of memories into my vivid dreams.

(46:37):
So then I couldn't tell if the dreamwas like a thing that happened or if it
was a dream, and that felt really scary.
And so I was like, Ineed to stop doing this.
And that's when I went on SNRIs instead,I was just like, you know, regular
medicine is also great for managing yourmental health and let's do that instead.

Brad (46:54):
that's fascinating.
Do you feel that those experiencesthough, have had a staying power though?
Or like, are, are there like lessonslearned from that phase that you,
when you like look at the trees now,

I think like there were a couple of experiences
that I had that were really good.
I never like had like a proper trip.
Like I only a couple of times, uh, gotto the place of seeing like some visuals,
like I like, you know, kind of likeholographic ledy world, which was great.
but I think it's more, I thinkit was more like understanding

(47:34):
that I was capable of joy, likethat kind of joy again, you know?
And it didn't have to be because of likegetting a little, like having a little
bit too much alcohol and feeling thatlike tipsy, like extroversion thing.
I was like, oh, like.
this is like straight up joyful wonder.
And the fact that you can experiencethat as an adult is amazing.

(47:58):
And I was like, I need to figureout how to have more of that.
Like, however that happens,because I think you kind of forget.
'cause like kids arealways like, that's crazy.
Like for everything.
And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You just don't know yet.
Like, you know.
But yeah, I mean, it, it was, Ido think that that stuck with me.
I think it, it made me feellike prioritizing that was a

(48:19):
real priority, you know, like.
That finding that was somethingI really needed to focus on.
it's sort of that thing of like when,when stuff's going weird mentally, you
don't really realize that, that it wasn'tgood until you're out of it and then
you're like, oh wow, that was actuallyworse than I thought that it was.
You know, like, and so onceyou're out of it, you're, you

(48:40):
have much more perspective.
And it's always so hard to knowbecause it's such a slow build
to get to like the bad part.
And I think a lot of us getto a part that's bad, but,
but we're still functional.
Like you're still totally capableof like doing work and taking care
of your kids and doing whatever.
It's just you are just like arobot doing those things, you know?

(49:01):
It's just you're going throughthe motions and you're not doing
stuff because it makes you stoked.
You're just doing it because it'slike another thing on your calendar.
And yeah, and it was reallynice to get outta that mode.

Brad (49:12):
that's great.
And I think, I think thatthat's really well said.
And w whether psychedelics or,or other ways, I think that
there are ways that adults can.
Find that perspective and, and, andevaluate, get outside of the, the normal
neural canyons, that normal path, uh,through the woods that, that we take.

(49:37):
and frankly I think like as I'vegrown older and reconnected with
things like music and art, I'mlike, oh, that's what that is for.
That's what it's for.
Like I always was like, oh, I like tomake pictures and I like to make music.

(49:58):
And that's fun.
I. And now I, what I'm realizing withespecially like kind of coming outta
covid, going to those like firstconcerts post COVI, you are taken to
that place, that, that, that, thatsame place that you're describing
with, with psychedelics and there'slike, it is, it is a real presence.
It is a real joy.

(50:19):
There's a sense of connectedness, there'sa sense of elevation, there's a sense
of, of like, we're all standing in thisroom together, sharing this experience.
And after being robbed of that for severalyears, that hit me like a ton of bricks.
And, and just like you're saying to,to, to focus there is, I mean, why

(50:43):
we're talking now on this, the, the showthat's kind of like dedicated, I think
to this attitude and I, it, and it's likethere's a real importance that I think.
need to be reminded of.
And that's what, that'swhat the arts are for.
That's what these things that aren't partof your just everyday lived experience,

(51:06):
that, that running through the motions,that's, that is where the trap can lie.
Even for creative professionals likeus, like, or for people that, like we,
we flex these muscles more than a lotof people, but it's like, yeah, I mean
it's such like a, a trope, but at thesame time it's like, yeah, people get
in their car and they go commute to workand then like the next thing, you know,

(51:29):
like 15 years them by and they're justlike, wait, what, what, what was I doing?
Right?
And that's where I thinkthat those why the arts.
are so important.
Uh, and, and there are other ways toit, but I do feel like there are these
just different modalities or different,different ways jolting us out of our,

(51:53):
our normal routine that end up thatkind of shift off of the normal walking
path and, and into a place or at leasthas us reevaluating or evaluating
like, wait, why am I on this path?
Am I, am I enjoying this, this journey?
Or, or does this just feel, Ifeel stuck or do I feel like, do

(52:16):
I feel okay or do I feel great?
kind of bringing this all back to likethe people sort of like bathing in the, in
the guilt and bathing into despair and inthe doom scrolling and all of that stuff.
You don't get that time back.
You don't get that time back.
And as the, the, the days have turnedinto months have turned into years

(52:37):
and are now turning into decades.
The people waiting for permission toreclaim that joy and reclaim happiness.
It's like you, you lost it.
Like you l you allowed yourself tolose this point, since 2016, almost
a decade of your life to, uh, otherpeople's shitty attitude and other

(53:03):
people's shitty ways of being.
And I, and I get it.
It's like, it's bad,it's wrong and whatever.
There's a lot of concerning things andthat's, I think maybe something I'd love
to like pick at with you is just like,'cause I've, I fall into this, this trap
a little bit, or not a trap, but like,something that I try to reconcile is

(53:23):
that this kind of positivity, optimism,hope, all of the good things that
we've been talking about Can't comeacross as, as, as like dismissive or
uncaring for the, the real hard thingshappening in the world, happening in
society, happening even in our own lives.

(53:45):
Right.
And it's like, I know that isn't true.
And, and I could feel it in my bonesthat it's not true that I care very
deeply about all of this stuff.
In fact, I, I feel that this is, aswe've already kind of covered, it's like
this is an important way to fight that.
But like, I'm curious if you feel thatat all, like where it's like this,

(54:09):
like you feel so juxtaposed against thenegative that it, it almost feels like,

I, and I get what you mean.
I think what I would say to that is Ithink everybody has their fight to fight.
You know, like everybody has the causethat lights the fire within them.
You know, and whatever that is for eachperson is gonna be super different.
Like some people are kicked up aboutwomen's rights, some people are kicked

(54:40):
up about immigrant rights, some peopleare kicked up about Ukraine, some
people are kicked up about Palestine.
You know, like everybody's gottheir thing that has triggered
them, that has like lit the firein them of like, this is my thing.
This will not stand.
I must be for this thing.
And I think it's just importantto remember that each person has
the cause that they are the mostexcited to fight against, you know?

(55:05):
And so I think with like thepositivity thing, the biggest
thing for me is focusing onlocal, immediate community stuff.
Because I think that.
My, my big thing right now isthat like all of this work from
home post Covid stuff has likedestroyed all local businesses.

(55:26):
You know, like it's just had such animmense impact of local communities,
of how people get together, of people'sconnectivity to each other and all that
I wanna do because I know I can have animmediate impact that not only makes other
people's life better, but it makes my lifebetter and it makes my kids' life better
by just being way more engaged in my localcommunity and trying to create initiatives

(55:48):
around getting the local community tolike be more connected and involved.
And then what happens thenfrom that is that like.
Local communities stand strongagainst larger communities,
against the largest communities.
So like that's why it can feel reallygood to be in California because
everybody in California just sortof agrees like, Hey, fuck all that.

(56:10):
Like we, if we have to, we'lljust be an island unto ourselves.
And you just kind of have thisunderstanding that we all are in this.
And that we are not gonna letthat corrupt us or whatever.
And it has to do with the fact that thissmaller community feels aligned against
this bigger or bad thing, you know?
And I think that's, so that'smy, that's where I'm at.

(56:32):
But like everybody is really different.
You know, like if you have a familymember that's been personally affected
by something, if you have been personallyaffected by something, you're gonna
have a really different approachto, like how to deal with all this.
And I think the, the thing that getstricky is when people try to assign a
value scale to the things that peopleare upset about or are kicked up

(56:57):
about, or care about, you know, likeby saying, oh, well you don't, you're
not putting all your effort into thisother thing that is way more important.
Therefore, what you aredoing doesn't have value.
And that's just not true.
You know, like you are gonna bethe most effective when fighting
the fight that you care about.
And so, like, don't try to fightthe fights that you don't all

(57:18):
the way care about right now.
You still care about them, butthey're just not the top fight.
And so just, we only have so muchtime, and so you have to just pick
the fight that you're gonna win.
So pick the fight thatyou're ready to fight.

Brad (57:30):
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's really well said.
And I think that that's a reallyimportant reminder for people because
I think that there is, there's, there'skind of a, a narrative out there.
There's the, you know, if, ifyou're not outraged by this, then
you're, you're part of the problem.
And like all of that stuff,like, that's a, a very, very
dangerous mentality and stuff.

(57:50):
And the fact of the matter is, is that.
There, there is only so much of you.
There's only so many hours in the day.
If you are committed yourself fullyto, you know, uh, gun control or
women's rights, that means thatyou're not committing your full
self to preservation of coral reefs.
If you're preserving the coralreefs, that means that you're

(58:12):
not fighting gun control.
Like there, there is only so muchof you, but like, because we are
just inundated, inundated andit's just so loud and so noisy.
And I think it's a lot of thatsentiment is coming from a place
of, I feel this in my body.

(58:33):
I feel this in my soul.
know this to be important.
And that sentiment is a reflectionof their, their reaction to it.
So it's, it's understandable,but it's not understandable to
expect other people to do it.
But it's like, so, so that I, I. My, mytake on it is it's like everyone has to

(58:56):
do their own work, and that often involvestaking a step away from the noise machine
in order to reconnect with, with theirvalues and what their life experience
and what their skills and unique giftsand, and, passions and enthusiasms are.
And then.

(59:16):
will have a, a greater sense ofclarity and purpose to be able to
sort of move the needle forward.
And the surprising and kind ofcool thing is that there will be
byproducts of that that will end uprippling out into these other fields.
Like if it's all grounded in,in love, ultimately, these

(59:36):
things are interconnected.
These, all of these systems, allliving things are interconnected.
And that, like, it really does requireall of us moving and, and hitting things
from our respective angles to makea difference to, to, to, to show up.
Like if we all pick a lane, itmeans that the rest of the lane's

(59:58):
atrophy and, and bad things happen.
So it really does require this, this ideaof, um, I was just talking to somebody
that the, the word, I don't even knowif it's real, but istic is, is what
we're describing here, is this like.
Show up there, there is apluralism to how we show up.

(01:00:20):
And we could all sortof express our virtues.
We could all build love, wecould all build community, we
could all help in our own ways.
that like your way is goingto be different than my way.
And that's okay.
So long as we're all,good things together.
Like that's, that's it.
And I think we could appreciate that.

(01:00:41):
Like we, we could learnto appreciate that.

Jessica Hische (01:00:44):
Yeah.
I think one of the biggestthings too is that, it's really
difficult to make big changes.
for one organization or oneperson to make really big changes.
'cause I was, I was having a conversationwith someone about this, about like
initiatives on a city level or like,you know, stuff that's meant to like,
address like really systemic problems.
But the issue is, is that it takes alot of people, a lot of time to come

(01:01:07):
up with a plan, and then they haveto start rolling out the plan, and
they roll out the plan bit by bit.
But as they're rolling out the plan,there's other groups that are going,
this plan isn't happening fast enough.
We're gonna put together another newplan of how to address this system.
And then everyone goes, you're right.
That's not happening fast enough.
Because 5% of that firstplan has only rolled out.

(01:01:27):
So then a new plan, plan goes intoplace that then starts from zero.
And what happens is when peopledo this, when people try to always
address it from the top down, they'reputting forth these huge systemic
changes and only getting 10 to 15%.
Done.
And then all of a suddeneverybody has a big rebellion
and says Not enough is happening.
So it never gets to a hundred percent.

(01:01:47):
Whereas if you just tackle smallproblems bit by bit and just work through
them, you can actually get stuff done.
And so like, I think that's anotherthing to remember is like that all this
stuff that we're talking about is justabout like taking action now and setting
yourself up in a way to take action.
You know, like building up your personalreserves, getting yourself kicked up about

(01:02:08):
a thing, doing a thing that you can haveimmediate impact on, even if it's small.
And understand that many smallthings equals one big thing.
You know?
Because a lot of times when you tryto do one big thing, It's really
difficult to roll out that wholething because people always wanna
come up with the new big thing.
They wanna be in charge of the newbig thing they want, you know, like
everybody's got different ideas ofwhat the new big thing should be and

(01:02:29):
it's just really hard to do that.
And it just, you just see it over andover again where people have these
really grand plans and they never geta chance to actually actualize them
because be because everyone's impatient.
And by the time they start rollingit out, other people are like,
well, clearly this wasn't working.
We've gotta rethink it all.

Brad (01:02:46):
yeah.
No, that, that's exactly it.
And I can't help but think like that our.
Media landscape contributes to that.
It's like, again, like the,the woes of the world are
showing up to our screens 24 7.
so we feel like we need to react and act,in equal measure, which is, oh yeah, we

(01:03:07):
gotta solve these big wicked problemsand wouldn't, you know it, I feel guilty
and, uh, like I'm incapable of doing.
It's, it's because you areright, you are incapable

Yeah.

Brad (01:03:20):
these, these big, wicked problems, right?
So it's like, it's like we, we, wehave to like reframe our reactions
and our response to these like macrolevel things with, like how you're
saying it just like this, just thesereally like, kind of focused and,
and immediate and actionable things.
that is what any humansingle person can do, undo.

(01:03:44):
That's beautiful.
That's great.
We need more of it.

agreed.
Agreed.

Brad (01:03:50):
how have you felt that your ambitions and priorities have changed?
We've already kind of like talkedabout it with like, like the kids and
stuff, but even just in, into this morelike purposeful stuff, like there's
kind of like different seasons ofour career and, and life and stuff.
Like how, how have you feltthings shift for you and how

(01:04:15):
do you, like, feel about it?
Do you feel like a loss or do youfeel, uh, like it's just inevitable
and you're rolling with it?

don't, I feel like I've been really able to recalibrate like every
few years based on what I want my lifeto be like and what my interests are.
So for me now, my bigfocus is sort of two.
It's really like the big focus now is.
How do I set myself up financially sothat I can do more things that are more

(01:04:45):
fun, like both workwise and lifewise,you know, mostly workwise because a
lot of, you know, the higher payingprojects are you working in a silo?
It's a, it's for like a bigcommercial thing or whatever.
And the more fun things are things thatdon't always pay the best, things that are
more like collaborations than they are,client projects or, volunteerism through

(01:05:08):
design and work and that kind of thing.
And I feel like I always want to do thosethings, but have a hard time balancing
it against needing to earn an incomefor my family and stuff like that.
So just really trying to figure outthe way to make it so that I can do
more of those things in five yearsand I can make more of my life's

(01:05:28):
focus around that, you know, like.
That I, it's not just about likedonating money to local organizations
and more just about like, what can I doto actually do things like, you know,
can I turn studio works into, uh, havea nonprofit where like I take my salary
and anything that goes beyond that goesinto a nonprofit that goes towards local

(01:05:49):
arts organizations or towards, you know,grants or whatever, you know, like a
way to help sustain everybody else.
You know, I feel prettystrongly about like.
Local retail and things likethat and how difficult it is.
It's like just almost impossible.
It would be amazing to just like beable to have some sort of program to
help people do small scale retail.

(01:06:11):
Be knowing that it's not really a bigmoney maker, you know, that it's just
like a thing that you have to do, orlike, if you wanna do it, it's not
meant to be like your next career 'causeit's really difficult to succeed at.
Um, but that, those things arereally amazing for local culture
and also just for personal reasons.
And so, I don't know, just like tryand I, I wanna figure out a way to

(01:06:34):
like take all the skills that I'velearned and resources that I have
and help other people with them.
But I also know that I need thefinancial ability to do that.
And I don't wanna bereliant on other people.
You know, like I don't want it tobe like setting up a thing where
there's donors and then boardmembers and blah, blah, blah.
Because I like it just, I don't know,I just feel like people with lots

(01:06:54):
of money always screw things up.
So.

Brad (01:06:58):
So it's true.
I lo I love what you're saying.
It's like, and this is a reallyinteresting, we'll say theme that's,
that's emerging on, this is somethingthat I spent a lot of time thinking
about as well, where it's like, youknow, like money is a tool, right?
And what you're describing is like, moneyin this sense is a platform a way for

(01:07:18):
you to provide stability to your family.
And you wanna like.
like tick that box so that you could freeup your, your mental, you know, spiritual
energy to, to do more worthwhile things.
It's, it's, it's money is atool in that respect that can be
wielded to unlock many good things.

Absolutely.
Because I think too, like it justdepends on how you're using it, you know?
Because like city, like if you think abouthow to effectively use money to do stuff.
Like there's certainly, like the city ofOakland, which is where my studio is, is
not a very well organized city in general.
I think I can say that withoutgetting everybody upset.

(01:08:03):
And part of it is like theyend up having to charge.
They have to charge,they, they charge a lot.
They have to charge a lot for thingslike permits to do things or whatever, to
like make up for the fact that they justlike bleed money over all sorts of stuff.
So it's just like, there's certainorganizations where like more money
does not equal more effectiveness.
And actually, like I.

Brad (01:08:23):
Yes.

out how to like use money in a smart way is really
important and is really difficult to do.
And so I think like I wanna focus onthings like that, whereas I feel like
there's like plenty, I mean, there'stons of organizations that you can
donate to and they use the money inexcellent ways and it's very useful.
Um, and so I'm not knocking nonprofits andcharities and stuff that already exist.

(01:08:47):
I'm just saying that like, if you'rethinking about direct contributions to
people, there's probably some really smartways to set that up where it actually
does have like a really big short-termimpact on both them and the community.
You know, like one of the things thatI was thinking about doing and this was
just, this is sort of a down the linepipe dream in, in terms of doing something

(01:09:07):
that's a more nonprofit thing, is settingup a fund that people can apply to to
host local events like community events.
So it's basically like you, you get agrant to do a community event, which then
unlocks the community in terms of theirlike presence with local retail and other

(01:09:28):
restaurants and all that kind of stuff.
So it's less about like givingmoney to a person to do a thing and
more about like, if you are doing acommunity related event, we will help
you file all your paperwork and wewill give you money to like set to
do rentals and, and permits and likewhatever, like that kind of thing.
Um, so it's like thinking aboutways where the money goes towards

(01:09:49):
something that's very immediate andactionable and has ripple out impact
on the other local businesses and notjust on that one person's business.

Brad (01:09:58):
Right, right.
It's like, here's this thing that'slike right now because it's just,
it's, it's harder than it needs tobe or just like out of the budget
of, of like a normal community.
So it's just like, here's, here's justlike this little push to just like
get the ball rolling on, on it, andthen you end up with this beautiful
ripple effect of, of people kind oftaking it and, and rolling with it.

(01:10:22):
That's great.
But, but I guess like, kindof like back to, let's say
like personal finances though.
So hard to grieve with all of thatstuff, and that sounds great and I'm
looking forward to you making that.
But also like whe when it comesto like your like personal.
Financial situation and it's like, okay,you got a family and there's that, there's
that kind of like balancing act that tendsto happen where it's like, okay, like

(01:10:47):
what's our obligation to provide stabilityfor our own family versus like the, the
world at large and community at large.
And obviously like as yourfinancial situation changes,
so does that balance Right?
But I like what you were sayingearlier, 'cause it's, it's almost
like, it's not even about like themoney, like where do I point my money?

(01:11:08):
You're, I think you're really describinglike, where do I point my energy
and how could I free up my energy byway of just kind of like taking care
of my personal financial situation.
Getting that almost kind of out ofthe way so that you're free be able
to exercise your and point yourenergy to these really important.

(01:11:32):
Projects, right?
That, that maybe it's not that you can'ttrust other people with your money,
but it's like, no, you, you have ideas,you have gifts, you have skills that

Yeah.

Brad (01:11:41):
to

Well I think you've been part of groups and organizations
and all kinds of things before where,you know that like the main thing is
just getting people to follow through.
You know, like everyone's gota lot of ideas and very few
people wanna follow through.
And part of it is because everybodyis just too busy, you know?
Like they got too much shit going on.

(01:12:01):
And that's kind of what happens.
And so I think like.
While I have the energy to do stuff, youknow, like I'm 40, I feel like I'm gonna
have a lot of energy until I'm like 55 or60, and then I'm still gonna have energy,
but it's gonna start to taper, you know?
And I just feel like I've gotthese, like two decades of,

(01:12:21):
of proper go get 'em energy.
And then I, I just wanna do asmuch as I can during that time.
I wanna be the person who makes asuggestion, then actually tries to do it.
You know, not the person who justlike talks about it and tries to get
someone else to do it that is not asinvested as me or whatever, you know?
And that's, that's really what itis, is like, it's not, I'm saying
that I can do it better than someone,it's just like very few people have

(01:12:44):
the ability and that attitude andthe tenacity to actually do stuff.
And I know that I'm one of those people,um, just because I love just hammering
away at a thing and, and making it happen.
It's like, it's really thrilling to me.
And so I wanted.
Make myself more.
I wanna be like, I want people to beable to use me in an effective way.

(01:13:06):
I wanna be, I wanna be a resourceto people, you know, like if
they have a thing they wannado, I'm like, how do we do it?
Let me help you do it.
And, but I do need to make surethat we're not like, freaking
out financially as a family.
Like, you know, 'causeI, you can't do that.
You can't like, give yourself to otherpeople if you're not taking care of the
people that you're in a, in a house with.

(01:13:28):
And so that doesn't mean that I need tohave like, crazy trust funds for the kids
or whatever, but it means that I shouldprobably start their college funds.
Like, you know, one of them is 10this year, so it's probably time
to start a college fund, you know?
Uh, and like, not that it has to be allthe way saved or anything, but you know
that before I divert a lot of energyinto another space, I probably have to

(01:13:52):
make sure that my kids aren't complainingabout me in therapy, uh, in 10 years time.

Brad (01:14:00):
But yeah, I, I think that that's, that's well said.
And I think that that really like hits atthe, It's like, well-meaning altruistic.
It's kind of always feels weird to beseemingly selfish, but it's like after
it's all said and done, it's like youdo need to take care of your family.
Like that is, that is the mostimportant thing you could do.
And that's ultimately like a goodthing for society writ large and for

(01:14:23):
your community that you are takingcare of your family and your kids.
there's kind of like a reframingof like the selfishness, but Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Right.
It's like there's a difference betweenthat level of kind of pragmatic, like,
I've got mouth to feed and kids to putthrough college and they have a trust fund

(01:14:44):
and we have a, a yacht and, and whatever,

exactly.
I think people have a hard time, parsingthe difference between wanting to have
a decent retirement fund just in case,you know, like, I don't plan to retire.
I plan to work as long as I humanly can,'cause my work is fun and enjoyable.
but who knows?
I mean, what if I like get physicallydisabled and I can't do that anymore?

(01:15:08):
Like, I have to, you haveto like set yourself up.
Like, what if one of us ends upbeing a solo parent because something
tragic happens to the other person.
What if one of the kids has a problem?
Like, you just don't know.
I mean it, like all kindsof stuff can happen.
So there always has to be buffer,but there's a real difference between
like being practical and safe andplanning for like potential hardship

(01:15:32):
that might happen or might not happenversus like hoarding like money and
sitting on top of a pile of emeralds.
Like it's a very different thing,you know, like at a certain point
everybody will be fine, like youcan just start giving it away.
yeah, I mean, just getting to thepoint where everyone would be fine
if I got knocked out or if Russ gotknocked out or if one of the kids

(01:15:56):
got knocked out or like whatever.
Just like getting it to the pointwhere we'd survive as a family.
We wouldn't have to go bankrupt.
We'd be able to like take care of.
A big problem that happened and itwouldn't be an incredible hardship.
That's all that I want.
And then anything, once we havethat, those assurances, anything
beyond that that doesn't needto get saved up, that's fine.

(01:16:17):
That can go towards cool, helpful things.

Brad (01:16:20):
Uh, that's great.
I wanna touch on somethingand then, uh, looking at the

I.

Brad (01:16:24):
we should probably wrap up soon, but I really like what you're describing.
you've done it a couple times,you've put yourself 10 years down
the road, 15 years down the road and,and also saying, yeah, I just wanna
work for as, as long as possible.
how do you think about that?
And also like how, in that samelens of like the longevity of your

(01:16:48):
and, and creative life, the breadthand depth of that creativity.
Like, like you've already turnedover a lot of stones, uh, in the
creative realm, which is awesome.
Um, and I guess like how do you seethat breadth and depth, like how have,

(01:17:09):
how have you, how do you describethat and how do you like, see that
changing in the, in the coming decades?
I.

Yeah, I think I, you know, I've been much more of
a designer and commercial artist.
I. Um, because for most of my life I havefelt like I've needed permission to make
things, you know, like I need a brief, Ineed someone asking me to solve a problem.
Um, and that makes me excited andgives me permission to make stuff.

(01:17:39):
And so it's kind of a mix of that.
And then also coming up with my ownthings, which usually have to do with
me learning a little bit of a new skilland wanting a way to practically apply
that skill or trying to like work ina certain way or think a certain way.
And so it's like projects end upbeing the way that I'm like, oh, I
really like doing this one thing,so I'm gonna come up with a way that

(01:18:02):
I can do that thing for a while.
Um, and so that all is still gonnaexist, but I think like I would, I
do want to be a person who can like,loosen up a little bit more in terms
of how I create and, you know, like.
Try new things and get a little sloppyand get a little bit more experimental

(01:18:24):
and maybe like exist in the world asa bit more of an artist and, and a bit
less as a commercial artist designer.
Um, I don't know when, and if that'llhappen, if it'll ever happen, like
maybe things will just totally keepshifting and I'll just keep getting
more and more like problem solving andpragmatic and whatever, like, who knows?
But that's one path that it could go down.

(01:18:46):
I'm not sure.
I also would love to teach more'cause I like, uh, being around
young people and, uh, that's fun.
Like, I, I love that and I haven'tbeen able to do that because I
just have been too busy and haven'tbeen able to pin down and whatever.
So I wanna, I would love todo that more as I get older,
and that would be really fun.
Um, also just like hoarding uh, makerequipment and doing a lot of stuff with

(01:19:14):
that and letting other people use allmy maker equipment that's, that's big.
Like Russ wants like to get somesort of workshop space at some
point when he doesn't have to workin tech anymore so that we can just
like accrue a bunch of maker shitand just like let people use it.
Um, I don't know.
I feel like my, my thing for my wholecareer has just been about helping people.

(01:19:37):
both myself and other people, helpingthem get unstuck and getting them excited
to like, make stuff and not feel like itneeds to be this whole intimidating thing.
And I feel like that's justgonna translate into different
things as I get older.
Like whether that's like I'm doingit through money ways, by setting up
like scholarships or like whatever, orwhether I'm doing that through youth

(01:20:00):
programs or through arts programs orthrough like having a maker space that
people have access to or like whatever.
It's just about like, how do I breakdown the friction to make making stuff
for everyone and for myself, you know?
Like I think that's, that'skind of the biggest thing.
Um, so I think that's just gonnaalways be, that's just always

(01:20:23):
gonna be part of it, you know?
And it's just gonna have differentforms, you know, it's just gonna
take different shapes as I get older.

Brad (01:20:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that's the, that's thewinning formula that you've already
demonstrated in many realms and to justpoint that formula at, at different
things and open up doors for morepeople to make things that's beautiful.
Absolutely beautiful.

to to, to bring it back to the kid convo too.
I've been one of the things, and youcan validate this 'cause it's a hundred
percent true, whereas like people arebored and exactly who they are, right.
You know, like they come into thisworld and they are fully formed people.
And so my big thing about parentingis the only thing that you can do

(01:21:11):
to impact your kids is to eitheradd friction or remove friction on
the path of who they're becoming.
Right.
So as a parent, you are either throwingthings in their path and preventing
them from taking that path, and theyhave to go around your obstacles to
get to where they're ultimately gonnabe, or you're actively removing the

(01:21:35):
things that are in their path forthem and helping them through that.
And I think that like having that approachto parenting and understanding that like
people are, whoever they're gonna be andeverybody has different blocks, and the
whole thing is identifying those blocksand helping them move them outta the way.
You know, like whether I canphysically move them out myself or

(01:21:57):
I can show them how to move it outand like that's the whole thing.
And so I think it's like, it's bothlike a parenting thing, but then also
just like a general creative life thing.
Is that like identifying the, thatwe're all on a different path and
everybody's got different blocks andthat we can actually go and help remove
those blocks or teach people how topush their own blocks aside, you know?

Brad (01:22:18):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I'm sure you get it all the time.
It's like, how do I do what you do?
And

Yeah,

Brad (01:22:25):
younger people or people that look up to you and it's like, it's
like, how do it's exactly what youdescribed with your, with your kids.
It's like have your own version of this.
It's not going to look.
Like me, you are not going to be me.
You're going to be you, andyou have no choice to be you.

yeah,

Brad (01:22:44):
Right.
So best get to it.
Right?

yeah.
That's why like the thing that's kindof funny is like the whole idea of
like a family business, you know, like.
If you think about passing down yourfamily business to your kids, it's
like that's just assuming that they'rebuilt just like you, if they're
gonna have the same role as you.
Whereas like they, like the reasonwhy family businesses don't always
last multiple generations isbecause you're basically having

(01:23:10):
your kids fall into a role thatthey're not necessarily built for.
But if the idea of the family businessis, Hey, this is the thing I've
built, what role in it could you have?
You know, like what would getyou excited that would make
you wanna participate in this?
That's a totally different thing.
You know, like it's not all about,you know, handing down the ownership.

(01:23:33):
It could just be about handingdown part of it that they
get excited about, you know?
So I, I don't know.
I think it's.
It's just very interestingand it's fun to model.
Like a lot of the things, like,that's my favorite thing too,
is just like living my life.
How I hope that the kids live their life.
You know, if they see me workingafter hours and make a comment

(01:23:55):
about how I'm working a lot, I'mlike, I'm only working right now
'cause I really love what I'm doing.
Like, you know, I'm just really excitedabout this thing, so I just can't stop
working on it 'cause I'm excited about it.
And so I'll just be like, I hopethat you're excited about a thing to
the point where it's bedtime and youhave a hard time going to bed because
you just wanna work on the thing.
You know, like, we'll see.

Brad (01:24:12):
percent.
hundred percent.
And, and, and that, enthusiasmabsolutely infectious, and your kids
will benefit from it in the same waythat the rest of the community who
have, you know, who are familiar withyou and your work and all that you do.
Are also impacted in a positive way by it.

(01:24:34):
Uh, it's like that, that, thatoutward facing, that broadcasting
of, of passion and enthusiasm is.
It's again, so, so important.
And that's why, again, kind of coming backto this idea of, it's like in this moment
in time, I feel like there's a, there'sa constriction or, or there's a, there's

(01:24:55):
a, you, you can't, you can't do that.
You can't say that you can't, you can't,uh, share those, those eight positive
things in, in this moment in time.
It's like, no, it's actually imperativefor you to, to do that because people need
to be reminded that these things exist.
That they can, that they have agency, thatthey have that same spirit inside of them,

(01:25:19):
even if it is dormant or even if it, ifit's underutilized, you're helping give
them permission to exercise those muscles.
And, and that's, that'sa really important gift.
I cannot believe that we madeit this entire time without
digging into music in any real

yeah.

Brad (01:25:40):
Uh, aside from just glancing on it, I would love to hear what music you
think more people should know about.

So it's a bit of a tricky one because I am the world's most
nostalgic person, and I just listen to thesame shit over and over and over again.
there's a, there's one thing I feellike everyone should know about,
which is that you can search,Spotify for playlists based on BPM.
so that is a, a fun tool.
So I do sprinting at the gym, and so I'malways looking at the one 90 BPM lists and

(01:26:15):
finding music based on things that are one90 BPM, which I find to be really helpful.
And then let me look intomy, my recent liked songs.
Um, oh, I really liked the bandBronco, and they're young and touring.
They're very fun, big into them.

(01:26:36):
there's also a band named Fiddler,which is like a kind of drunk
teenage band, and I love them a lot.
Right now.
I can't play them in the car withmy kids 'cause they curse too much.
But no, I just listen to the sametired music over and over again.

Brad (01:26:53):
That's

So

Brad (01:26:54):
That's not

I'm a creature of habit.

Brad (01:26:57):
Well, I, I think we all are.
And there's, there'sdefinitely back to those neural

I,

Brad (01:27:02):
There's, there's a lot of science that backs that stuff up.
Why?
Why We kind of

yeah.

Brad (01:27:07):
those, those rhythms.
But I, I would give yourself morecredit based on our other conversations.
You, you, your finger on thepulse more than most, so.
All right, well, cool.
Um, any like, last things, uh,you wanna, you wanna plug where
could people find you and, uh,

Well, should definitely sign up at Studio
Works app for our new thing.
We're still pre-launch.
Um, and then the community, if youdon't care about uh, invoicing software
and stuff is Studio works.community.
And then, um, I always have kids books to

Brad (01:27:41):
anybody?

Oh yeah.
It's free to students and it'sfree to Studio Works members.
And so right now you can sign up forfree for Studio Works and then get
a free, like in into the community.
But then once we actuallyrelease the invoicing software,
you'll be paying for invoicingsoftware but have free community.
And then, um, I always havenew or kids books to chill.
Ooh, I do have something.

(01:28:03):
Let me go off screen for a second.
Two things.
This book came out not that longago, my first book of fancy letters.
My camera doesn't wannafocus on it, but there it is.
That one's a good one.
And then this is new.
I have an updated version of my IMPProgress book, which is now a thick boy
'cause I added almost 90 pages to it.

(01:28:24):
And so this is on pre-order rightnow and it, and it comes out in May.
So you should get this'cause I'm proud of it.
And it turned out really good

Brad (01:28:32):
Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Well, that's awesome.
Well, uh, we're gonna haveto do this again sometime.
I thank you so much for,for coming on the show.
Uh, you're one of the, thefirst people that I'm talking
to, so really appreciate it.
And, uh, yeah, keep doing yourthing, putting out the positive
vibes in the world and those kiddos.

all day our day.

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