July 1, 2025 • 46 mins
Ever wondered why church hurt cuts deeper than almost any other kind of pain? Natalie Runion doesn't just understand this phenomenon—she's lived it, studied it, and found a way through it without abandoning her faith or the church she loves.
Growing up as a pastor's kid in Cincinnati's charismatic circles, Natalie witnessed firsthand how devastating church hurt can be when her parents experienced it during her senior year. This pivotal moment steered her away from seminary and into public university, where she eventually found her own ministry path through Campus Crusade for Christ and worship leading. Now, as the voice behind "Raised to Stay," she speaks with disarming honesty about the tension between loving an imperfect church and experiencing wounds from the very community meant to offer healing.
What makes this conversation truly exceptional is Natalie's nuanced take on different types of church pain. She draws a critical distinction between abuse (something that happens to us against our will, often from positions of power) and offense (something we choose to pick up and carry). This framework offers listeners a fresh way to process their own church experiences and discern appropriate responses. Her insights on helping teenagers navigate church hurt—acknowledging the reality without villainizing the entire global church—provide practical wisdom for parents wrestling with how to guide the next generation.
The heart of our discussion explores Natalie's upcoming book "I Don't Even Like Women," unpacking the surprising phenomenon of women in church leadership who struggle with female friendships. She dives into the competitive dynamics, tribalism, and "savior complex" that often plague women's ministry, offering generous and grace-filled strategies for building authentic sisterhood even amid these challenges. Her perspective that "generosity is the grand antidote to competition" provides a powerful alternative to the defensiveness that often characterizes female relationships in ministry settings.
Whether you're wrestling with church disappointment, struggling to build meaningful female friendships, or simply trying to understand why staying faithful sometimes feels so difficult, Natalie's story offers both comfort and challenge. Follow her at @raisedtostay on Instagram and watch for her new book releasing this September—it promises to open conversations we've all wanted to have but haven't known how to start.
Pre-order Natalie's Book here: https://a.co/d/0qMEoQi
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Episode Transcript
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Gianina (00:00):
Welcome back to the walkthrough podcast, where we
get honest about life's valleysand victories and what it means
to walk with God right in themiddle of them.
I'm your host, Gianina, alongwith my beautiful friend Kiley,
and today I'm so excited to sitdown with Natalie Runion.
Many of you know her as thevoice behind Race to Stay.
Natalie's honesty, humor andheart for the church have
(00:22):
encouraged thousands, especiallythose who've wrestled with
disappointment, deconstructionand hurt inside faith spaces.
Today we're diving into herstory, her upcoming book I Don't
Even Like Women, and how God iscalling us to something deeper,
even when it's hard.
Well, I'm super excited to haveour amazing guest on.
(00:42):
So welcome, Natalie.
Thank you so much for hoppingon tonight.
You look lovely and it's alwaysit's always so cool to see all
of your I think I've told youthis like you have such cool
personality that comes out inyour clothes and appearance and
everything that you do, andyou're actually someone that I
go to for fashion sense.
So well thank you, it's good tobe with you guys.
(01:04):
Yeah, I'm super excited.
So, for those people thataren't familiar with you, I
would love for you to just sharea little bit about yourself and
your background and just kindof how you came to know the Lord
and anything in your story thatyou'd like to share.
Natalie (01:19):
Yeah, so I'm Natalie Runion.
I live in Kentucky, which isn'ttoo far from you guys.
I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio,as a pastor's kid and was raised
in the charismatic church,lived in church parsonages.
I got saved when I was seven Iremember it and lived my entire
childhood in public schoolsbeing a pastor's kid and just
really grew up in a veryMidwestern, religious, you know,
(01:42):
god-fearing part of the countryand fell in love with the
church as a result of my parentsloving the church and I went to
a public university majored inscience.
I just didn't want to be in thething that my parents had done
my whole life.
But I found Campus Crusade forChrist on campus and it was such
a beautiful way for me to findmy own ministry and so I started
(02:04):
being a worship leader for themand that was during all of the
outpouring of like, all of theoutdoor festivals like Igthus
and Passion.
Louis Giglio had just startedhis ministry, taking Kristi,
knuckles and all of those groupsTomlin and Crowder out, and so
I fell in love with 90s worshipthat pure hearted, no social
(02:26):
media, no YouTube, and reallythat's how I introed back into
ministry, was as a worshipleader in the early 2000s and
did that for about 20 years.
And then, when I was around 40,we had moved our family to
Colorado to be part of a largemegachurch out there and ended
up becoming their women's pastor.
And so did that and raised thisday the ministry that I have
(02:47):
now, which is really for peoplewho have wrestled with their
relationship with the church butwant to stay with Jesus.
That was birth.
Out of that season.
I retired from church staff fora little bit and now we move
back to Kentucky with my husbandwho's gosh?
We've been married 18 years now, two daughters who are almost
13 and 16.
And really that's our hope isjust that we would continue to
(03:10):
introduce people to a God whoreconciles His church and His
people back to each other.
Gianina (03:15):
Yeah, that's so good and I know, just following all
of your posts in your socialmedia over the last few years,
there's just such anauthenticity and I know that
comes at a cost and that comeswith the story and just from
living it, and not necessarilysomething you've read or
something you've seen, but youcan just tell, and everything
that you share, that you have astory and something that you've
(03:36):
lived through and walked through.
And one of the things thatwe've talked a lot on the
podcast so far is there havebeen people who have gone
through church hurt and I know Imean really if you've been in
the church for any amount oftime in any leadership capacity,
because we're all human, it'seasy to be offended by something
and to get hurt by something.
(03:57):
And I know one of the thingsthat someone taught me kind of
earlier on as I was doingministry is the closer you get
to the inside, the more you'regoing to see the flaws, and so
that's something that I've hadto kind of navigate.
But if you would be willing tojust share a little bit of what
that has looked like for you youdon't have to necessarily share
(04:17):
specifics on what happened tokind of cause some of that hurt
and some of like.
Why are you passionate?
Why is this something thatyou're passionate about?
Why did you want to leave?
Why is it something that?
Why is this your platform?
Natalie (04:32):
Well, I always say, if you love something for very long
, there is a very goodlikelihood you will be hurt by
it.
And I think that for a lot ofus who were raised in the church
, we were a little bit naive,especially in the 80s and 90s,
where there wasn't social media,there wasn't a lot of other
churches, that we knew what washappening.
We didn't know if a pastor fell, we didn't know if there was a
(04:53):
moral failure.
You know there was an innocenceto that and I think this whole
deconstruction church hurtmovement.
While I believe it is good andthat we are seeing poor behavior
, abusive behavior, narcissisticbehavior being exposed at
levels that are actually savingpeople's lives, it can also
create a skepticism and acynicism in something that God
(05:16):
has created.
His church is his idea and forme you know really, being a
pastor's kid, I had so much hopein the church and I watched my
own parents walk through apretty devastating hurt my
senior year of high school,which is why I didn't go to
seminary, it's why I didn't goto a Christian college, and
really my whole point was likeGod, these are your people.
No, thank you.
I'm treated better by mynon-Christian friends than I am
(05:40):
by church friends and I thinkthat's really disorienting,
especially for people who didn'thave pastors as parents, who
didn't grow up in this.
They think why would I want tobe part of something that is so
dysfunctional when I can findthat in the world?
And so, rather than heal,explore other faith communities,
explore other leadership, a lotof people just quit and they
(06:03):
just walk away because that'seasier than getting hurt again,
and I don't blame people.
This is like the worst kind ofhurt is church hurt, because we
should know better, the churchshould know better.
And so for me personally, whenI was around 40 and really
struggling with this whole ideaof like God, why is it that
every time I try to be involvedwith your people, I get wounded?
(06:25):
And Raised to Stay was birthedout of that season of me asking
that question like is it okay ifI just quit?
I don't know what the point isof me staying.
You've got all kinds of otherpeople who can do this.
I just want to show up and bean attender on Sunday mornings
like everybody else.
And Raised to Stay was birthedout of that, with John 15 really
being the flagship scripture ofif you'll just remain with me,
(06:46):
if you'll stay with me, ifyou'll tarry with me, then I'll
remain in you and then, as aresult of that, you'll produce
good fruit.
And as I stayed and didn't quitjust because it was hard, I
wasn't being abused, I wasn'tbeing hurt or wounded, I was
being challenged and the Lordwas allowing it.
As I stayed, good fruit didbecome part of my story, and
(07:09):
that was in the form of aministry that's now having a
global presence, which is anhonor, but I think for all of us
, I hope that's a testimony thatif we remain in Him, he remains
in us and produces good fruit.
Gianina (07:21):
Yeah, and it's so good to remember that any of us can
be the offender as well.
I was actually at a women'sconference a couple months ago
and one of them said somethingthat was just transforming is,
you know, we listen to storieslike David and Goliath and we
automatically think we're Davidand there's this big Goliath
that we have to fight, andsometimes we're Goliath,
(07:42):
sometimes we're a bystander,sometimes we're David's brothers
and so we're Goliaths,sometimes we're a bystander,
sometimes we're David's brothers, and so we just really have to
see ourselves in all of thosesituations.
And I think that when I mean, Ithink back to how many times I
probably hurt somebody andoffended somebody along the
journey as well, and that'sreally humbling too.
But how do you differentiatebetween being hurt and offended
(08:04):
and abuse?
Because I think we kind of grewup in the same era where I mean
I grew up where, the more thatyou take, you're being holy.
You know what I mean.
Like if I take somebodyneglecting me or being rude to
me or being condescendingtowards me, if I can take it and
(08:26):
take it to the Lord and justlet it go, then I'm more holy
than somebody who speaks upagainst it.
So how do you kind ofdifferentiate between those
things?
Natalie (08:36):
Yeah, it's like the persecuted church, like you know
, it's like our badge of honoris that we've been wounded, and
I think that, yes, there's somenatural persecution that will
come to us as Christians, but itshouldn't be at the hands of
fellow Christians, and I thinkthat that is one of the reasons
why Jesus, the disciples andPaul were so hard on the
(08:56):
Pharisees and went so hard atthem, john the Baptist, because
they knew the religious peoplewere probably going to be a
bigger problem than the sinnersat the end of the day.
And so I just I feel like for alot of us we have to understand
there's a difference betweensomething happening to us
against our will.
So abuse is something thathappens to us.
(09:16):
We can't stop it, we can'tcontrol it.
It's sexual, physical,emotional, spiritual.
It's usually at a powerdifferential, where it's coming
from someone who is over us, anauthority whom we have been told
touch not god's anointed ones.
We have been told they knowwhat's best for us.
It goes down to like daddy hitsme because he loves me, kind of
(09:38):
thing, where we're like this isjust part of, you know, this is
part of my experience as beingan intern and no, none of that
is true.
Abuse, especially spiritualabuse, can be hard to define if
it's not blatantly sexual orphysical.
But these are things that arehappening to you.
It's words that are beingspoken over you to crush your
spirit and break your heart.
It's people using scripture tojustify toxic, narcissistic
(10:00):
behavior that is ruining yourlife ultimately, and changing
the course and making you feelas if you have no anointing and
power.
It's really taking away fromthings that God has given to you
, whereas offense is somethingthat we choose to pick up.
And this is something that wenot only choose to pick up, but
we ask others to carry it withus.
(10:20):
And that's why offense is thisdouble edge sin, because it's
not only a sin on our end forpicking it up, but it's a sin
for placing it on another personand saying aren't you mad at
that pastor too?
You should be mad at them too,because you don't know what they
did to me and I'm sure they'redoing it to you.
And so offense becomes divisive, it becomes controversial, it
(10:41):
becomes gossip, whereas abusemost of the time abuse victims
are not talking about theirabuse, they're hiding, they're
in shame, they're in fear,whereas offense is loud and bold
and prideful, and I had toreally search my heart.
I just did a post that said,what if I told you some of my
church hurt was my fault?
Because I think that offensereally played a huge part in why
(11:05):
I wasn't able to heal asquickly from some of the things
that I encountered, especiallyin my older years of ministry,
when I should have known better.
Kiley (11:14):
Can I ask, when we get to a certain age, when we've had
some life behind us, we canthink about a situation usually
maybe not in the moment, but wecan think more clearly about it
and so, with the race, to say,if you just stay in it, stay
with God, stay the course andI'll bless you through that how
(11:37):
would you navigate?
You have teenagers now, so howwould you navigate having your
own child maybe go throughsomething when their brains are
still developing anyway and theycan't think beyond that?
What would you say to parentswho are maybe, or I don't know
how many young people listen tothis podcast?
But if there is somebody younglistening to it, like, how how
(11:59):
would you help somebody of ayounger age maybe navigate
church bird or something thathas happened where they still
they still want to be there forGod?
But it's just this, like thiswrestling between the two.
Natalie (12:12):
Yeah, I mean, you have to remember like there is no
junior Holy Spirit.
So our kids are very muchdiscerning.
They are very much aware of thethings that their parents are
talking about behind closeddoors.
They know when something's amokin the church.
They're very aware when aleader is off.
And one thing that I tellparents and we've done this with
our kids is that we never tryto defend the church First of
(12:34):
all.
God doesn't need us to defendHis church, and if there is a
youth pastor that is out of line, if there is a pastor who's
behaving poorly, we don'tsugarcoat that and we don't try
to make excuses for it.
We have the conversations withour nine-year-old, with our
13-year-old.
Now they're much older, buteven now there's been some
(12:54):
scandal around some older churchthat we were part of, and one
of the little girls who stillattends there called my daughter
to just like process throughbecause her parents are still on
staff there, and you know wedon't try to shut that down.
They need to be able to processit too in their little minds,
and so we just say, hey, as longas they're not giving
(13:16):
misinformation and creatingchaos outside of that, we want
them to have safe places tounpack what's happening in their
lives and what they're seeingtheir parents go through.
So I think, one, we don't defendthe church.
Two, we definitely try to bringas much restoration and hope in
saying that, yeah, it might'vebeen happening here, but it's
not happening everywhere.
We don't villainize the entireglobal church based off of what
(13:38):
one or two bad experiencesinform us of.
And finally, I think we have tolet our kids come to their own
conclusions.
I don't ever want to look at mychild and be the definitive God
answer in their life, and so,with my kids at the age right
now where one's going to be ajunior in high school, she's
coming to me and saying, hey, Iwant to be, you know, really
(13:58):
involved with Young Life thisyear and I really want to be
involved with Fellowship ofChristian Athletes, which might
not allow her to be in her youthgroup.
And so we're asking her OK,pray through this.
Like which one is it that Godis inviting you into, because
you can't be at three places atthe same time.
And so really putting that ballin their court and saying you
hear from God too, like if youfeel comfortable with these
(14:20):
people, if you feel like this iswhere God wants you, then we
trust that God is moving.
We're still your parents, wecan still yay or nay things, but
we really want them to haveautonomy when it comes to some
of these things.
Okay, that's so good.
Gianina (14:35):
Well, I'm excited to chat a little bit about your new
upcoming book.
This is a topic that I lovebecause I was one of those.
I feel, like Kylie, you'vealways had strong girlfriends
and you have like so many.
I am like so jealous of thelong term friendships that
(14:55):
you've had and I don't reallyhave a lot of women friends that
I've been friends with for morethan 10 years and, looking back
, it's because I was always thatguy's girl that I was friends
with all the guys and my badJavara was like I just don't get
along with girls, I just getalong with guys better.
And so this is a topic and now Ido have a lot more female
(15:20):
friends.
I think once you get married,that kind of shifts a little bit
.
You know, I'm not going to befriends with all the guys while
I'm married and I have a lotmore girlfriends, but I still
really struggle with deep femalerelationships and, crazy enough
, especially in the church.
And so I'm excited to kind ofchat about this.
(15:42):
If you don't mind sharing alittle bit about your vision
with this book, the title andhow you came up with that this
is your new job and I'm gratefulbecause the pastor at the time
he saw I had a teaching gift.
Natalie (16:11):
I didn't see it yet, but clearly he was hearing from
the Lord, and so I can't beangry about this transition now,
but in the moment I was lividand I really felt like God bait
and switched me.
He had moved us this far away.
Now I'm being moved out of myfavorite thing to something that
I never said, that I everwanted to do, and it took me the
entire time being that women'spastor of those eight
congregations over those people,to really truly fall in love
(16:34):
with women in a way where I wasliterally brokenhearted over
them and I wanted to see themsucceed.
I wanted families to berestored, and that was a process
.
Now, when I resigned and Istarted traveling the world
speaking at women's conferences,I would get picked up from the
airport by women who were onstaff pastor's wives and I would
(16:55):
say, hey, how did you get intothis position as women's
director or whatever they werecalled?
And nine times out of 10, theywould say I don't know, I don't
really even like women, I'm just, you know, this is where I find
myself and I kept thinking, youknow, for this to be a common,
universal, global, like sayingwe need to like actually talk
(17:18):
more about this.
And so I went to my publisherand said I think this is book
three.
They thought I was insane.
Thankfully, I've had two otherbooks to prove that I kind of
know what I'm doing.
And so they agreed to let mecall it this, as long as we came
up with a subtitle, which isand other lies that get in the
way of sacred sisterhood, thatwould redeem it to a positive
spin.
And so, really, this book issaying look, we all say this
(17:41):
common phrase, but what are weactually saying when we're
saying it?
Kiley (17:44):
look, we all say this common phrase, but what are we
actually saying when we'resaying it?
I think it's funny, janina,that you mentioned that, because
I, natalie, when I startedreading this, I had that
visceral like oh gosh, thecafeteria, the Halloween costume
, all of that.
And I mean I, growing up inschool, I did not have a lot of
(18:11):
girlfriends.
I had.
I did hang out with a lot ofguys.
I had maybe two or three reallyclose girlfriends and the group
of friends that that, janina,you see me talking about now all
came after my college.
Some of them the big group ofthem, I always say I wiggled my
way in because they were all mysister's friends first, and I'm
(18:32):
three years younger than her andnow we're all just together.
But it's interesting that thethere I don't have a lot of like
girlfriends that I've madethrough the church.
So why do you think it is sodifficult for females to have
(18:52):
that fruitful friendship,especially women of faith, like
I know?
You mentioned competition andcomparison, and are those just
the main reasons, or do youthink that there's something
else deeper there?
Natalie (19:07):
I think we all have this innate desire to be wanted
and to be included and to beinvolved.
But there are so many scriptsthat have been written over us
since we were little girls thatby the time we hit adulthood and
we're starting new jobs, whichhas its own insecurities, and
we're looking for our futurehusbands, which have their own
insecurities.
And then we are marrying andtrying to have children.
(19:32):
Some of us can, some of us arenot as able to, and there's all
of this life stress that thenpiles on things like competition
and comparison and all of this.
And so I think those scriptsfollow us from the playground
where we're not able to playwith people who don't look like
us or aren't as popular orwhatever.
Those all translate and thenthey sort of combust in our 20s
(19:54):
and 30s to a point where a lotof women just choose to isolate
and say you know what?
I don't have it in me to searchfor this.
I think we're also very tribal.
I think that once we find ourpeople, we can be very exclusive
.
We're also very tribal.
I think that once we find ourpeople, we can be very exclusive
.
I know that, especially in theChristian college environment,
that if a bunch of you that wentto the same Christian college
(20:15):
all end up at the same church.
Good luck busting into that.
Christian sorority culture isworse than any public sorority
culture I've ever been part of,and to the point where I've
joined church staff before andintroduced myself to the wives
of those I'd be like servingbeside, and I've gotten texts
before that says no thanks, Ihave enough friends and you know
(20:38):
, and it's that tribalism, it'sthat like no, you can't sit with
us at 30 and 40.
That really, I think not onlyimpacts very confident women
like myself, but if you canimagine me, I'm 30 and 40.
That really, I think not onlyimpacts very confident women
like myself, but if you canimagine me, I'm like an outgoing
extrovert.
I don't require a lot.
Imagine that single mom or thatwoman who's never tried a
women's event before or comingin the door and to get that kind
(20:59):
of reception would absolutelyterrify them and make them never
want to come back.
So, as Christian women, I thinkyou pile on the world scripts
along with some of our otherChristian-ese things that have
happened to us, and it's aperfect recipe for us to become
very strong cliques that just gowith us into our 50s, 60s and
(21:20):
70s, until we just kind ofeither end up alone or we end up
in the same echo chamber westarted in in our 20s, janina, I
remember when we first movedhere.
We just kind of either end upalone or we end up in the same
echo chamber we started in inour twenties.
Kiley (21:27):
Janina, I remember when we first moved here, that was
one of the first things youactually said to me with making
friends, because that was onethat I think anytime anybody
moves somewhere, the hardestthing is leaving their family
and friends.
And like, how am I going to,how am I going to meet new
people?
And she was saying, you know,just don't, am I going to, how
am I going to meet new people?
(21:48):
And she was saying, you know,just don't, just don't be
surprised if you see thesegroups of women that will
literally say no, thanks, I haveenough friends.
And it's not because I don'tthink it's because they want to
be mean, I think they're just socomfortable with the familiar
and they, you know, it's like,no, that's okay, not thinking
about who it's affecting.
Natalie (22:08):
On the other end, yeah, and a lot of them have not.
A lot of Christian women havegrown up or at least spent their
after college years and on inthe same churches because their
husbands are on staff, whateverthe circumstances, so they've
never had to be theuncomfortable new girl.
And I think for those of uswho've had to move like they've
(22:30):
never had to be theuncomfortable new girl, and I
think for those of us who've hadto move like my children have
had to move schools twicethey're very familiar with
having to make new friends andbe the new kid.
I think that everybody in churchshould have to feel like the
new kid once or twice, to reallyfeel that tension of walking
into a foyer all by yourself ora women's group or a conference
and having to find someone whoabout looks your age which you
(22:50):
know our moms all did that rightLike we'd be in line for VBS,
go talk to her.
She looks about your age orwhatever.
Like that doesn't float anymorewhen you're in your twenties,
thirties and forties, mostlybecause we can't tell how old
people are anymore, but alsobecause, like I actually would
(23:11):
rather hang out with some womenin their fifties and sixties who
have survived this a lot longerthan I have.
So really we almost have toshift our mentality when we walk
into churches, when we'restanding in church foyers to say
who looks like they couldreally use a hello or a hug or a
welcome from me, and we need tobe what we need and that can be
hard when you're insecure.
Gianina (23:29):
I think one of the things that really helped me I'm
not on our greeting team, whichalways surprises people,
because I'm, like you, veryextroverted and outgoing, but I
think it's because I don't likebeing assigned to one station, I
just like going everywhere andtalking to everybody.
But one of the things someonesaid is you know, you don't have
(23:51):
to have the capacity to befriends with everybody who walks
in the door, but you can be aconnector.
So if you're welcoming tosomebody and they're interested
in golfing, you can say oh mygosh, my friend Jessica loves
golfing too.
I'm going to connect you guys.
So just because you're awelcoming face to somebody and
(24:11):
you may not have the capacity tobe 500 people's best friend
that walked in on a Sundaymorning, but you can connect
them to other people.
That's always hugely beneficialtoo.
But one thing I wanted just totake some time and ask you
because this is something that Istruggle with a lot so this is
me getting vulnerable is I don'tgenerally feel like I compete
(24:36):
with other women.
I'm a fairly confident person,but I feel like I'm constantly
being competed with, like womenkind of.
Maybe it's because I amconfident and strong and
outgoing and whatever, but Igenuinely just want to be
friends with everyone and cheereverybody on and I want to see
everybody succeed and do whatGod has called them to do.
(24:58):
But I feel like when I try tomake friendships with women who
are in that same boat, a lot oftimes I feel like they're trying
to push me down or they'rebeing competitive with me.
And how do you navigate thatlike that competitiveness in
church?
Because obviously it's there,but how do you?
Natalie (25:19):
deal with that.
It's so interesting because Ieven hear myself like saying
these things to my kids.
Like my daughter will come homeand say this girl has been
really competitive with me involleyball or whatever.
And here's what my instinct isto say is oh honey, she's just
jealous of you.
Like they're just jealous.
Well, here's what that does.
It makes my daughter feel likeshe has to dumb down or dull her
(25:41):
shine to not be the target ofanother woman's insecurity, and
I don't want that for mydaughter.
I don't want her to feel like,in order for her to have
friendship with this girl who'sclearly got something going on
in her life that she can't beexactly who God has made her to
be.
Now that doesn't mean we don'tneed self-regulation and
emotional IQ, but I shouldn'thave to not be a good athlete or
(26:03):
not get good grades or have abestselling book because
somebody in my peer group isthreatened or whatever.
But when we say women arejealous, what we're doing is
we're telling the other girllike you just need to not be so
loud or so bold or so bright sothat you don't ruffle her
feathers.
No, actually, these women needto own up to their assignment.
(26:25):
They need to focus on their ownrace and I am not going to be
collateral damage to theirdysfunction and that takes a lot
.
This takes a lot on socialmedia.
It takes a lot because I'llhave people say well, you didn't
even have a very big platformwhen you started Raised to Stay,
how'd you get a bestseller book?
I know these things are beingsaid and so much of it is out of
(26:46):
my control.
It's the Holy Spirit, it's theLord, it's Him offering favor.
And how do you give credit tosomething you can't see In their
minds?
Well, you must have a famousfather or you must be working
for a megachurch.
It's all these excuses.
We hear Taylor Swift talk aboutthis all the time that when all
of her songs started gettingGrammys, people assumed there
(27:06):
was some guy, that was someghostwriter, writing her music,
because surely a woman couldn'thave this many hits.
And so we have to remember wehave, as women, not only men who
think we can't do it, but ourown sisters who think we can't
do it, and so I've had to reallyjust put my head down, and when
I am friends with people who Ican feel are starting to get in
(27:27):
that competitive state with me,I have learned that generosity
is the grand, greatest antidote,that the minute that I become
generous with my platform, theminute that I start speaking
words of life over their thingthat they're working on, and I
start to combat that because Ican sense it it goes away
instantly because now they'renot seeing me as a competition,
(27:48):
but they're a collaborator.
And this takes a lot ofself-control and it makes you
have to crucify your fleshbecause everything in you wants
to say you're just jealous, butactually that's probably not
true.
There is something brokeninside of that person that makes
them feel like you're acompetitor, and this is where we
(28:09):
have to start using the word ofGod.
We have to start digging intoour identity in Christ and just
trusting that the Lord will giveus ways to encourage them and
speak life over them, even whenthey're kind of being jerks in
our space.
And I've been there, though.
I've been the jealous friend,I've been the one wondering how
did they hit that list and howdid they do that?
And I have to correct myselfall the time, and so I am.
(28:32):
I am like offender number oneover here.
Kiley (28:35):
Yeah.
So if, if someone is listeningthat has thought like, hey, I've
, I've been hurt by women or yes, I have been the one that's
been withdrawn, what kind ofencouragement would you give
them?
Natalie (28:50):
You're not alone.
I mean, we're all swinging bythe seat of our pants in this.
Listen, I don't have a gaggleof girls that I do girls
weekends with.
I have like five women that Ican call on any given day and be
like hey, can you just pray forme?
This is going on.
I don't do coffee dates everyday with women.
I'm not like having sleepoversand braiding people's hair Like
I'm a busy woman with children.
(29:11):
You are not alone.
But at the same time, when Istep foot through my church for
your doors, there are womenlooking for me and I'm looking
for women, and that is somethingthat I look forward to.
After I've had a week ofmomming hard and travel and
writing, I look forward toseeing these women, whom I may
not be best friends with, butwho make me smile and who make
(29:34):
me laugh and who encourage me.
And then if I get a random textfrom one of them that says hey,
can you meet for coffee?
Sometimes I can and sometimes Ican't, and that's okay.
We just need to find people inour small groups, in our
playdate groups, in our jobs,even if they're not believers.
And I think, as Christian women,we think well, I can't hang out
with non-Christians.
You absolutely need to behanging out with non-Christians
(29:57):
because there is a differentkind of a sisterhood that comes
with working beside people thatmay not know Jesus but who trust
you, because they will knowJesus, because they know you,
and so just looking for it inunconventional places.
Some of the best people I'vemet have been in the grocery
store line and we've madefriends through Instagram and
they send me words ofencouragement all the time and
(30:19):
we've not seen each other sincethat grocery store line.
So I think we think it has tolook like it did when we were 15
and it's not.
It's not going to look likethat.
So just be committed.
One of my favorite pastors saysthat community comes to the
committed Like if you wantcommunity, you're going to have
to commit to it, and that meansputting your heart on the line.
It really does, um, but Ihaven't regretted that, um.
(30:43):
But again, I'm not runningaround with a bunch of girls
having, like, putting onsequined dresses and going out
and, you know, having parties onFriday nights like, well, not
college.
Kiley (30:52):
I'm glad that you mentioned that because I found
myself thinking the other dayyou know, we're on social media
so much and we see all thesereels of all these girlfriends
doing these things together andlike the funny videos or the
when I I I have connected withpeople here, but of course I
still have a lot of my heart inCalifornia where all of my other
(31:16):
friends are and stuff, and so Ifind myself comparing like well
, how come, how come I I don'tdo those videos with people and
how come I don't do this?
Or how come?
And what would you, what wouldyou say to me to encourage me
out of that like comparisonstage, because social media is
(31:37):
it's great for some things andit's really not great for other
things, and it just kind ofmakes me, and possibly, I'm sure
, other people, it makes me kindof sad that I don't have, you
know, that particular thing youknow to do with somebody.
Natalie (31:53):
Well, I mean, you have to remember that this is what
these are highlight reels, right, like it's not everyday life.
And we know, we know this.
Now let's let's not discreditthe fact that there might be
some moms that are out everyweekend having wine and cheese
night and they have babysittersand they can do that, okay, but
the average woman, my guess is,probably gets away to see her
friends.
(32:13):
I get to go to Colorado to seemy girlfriends and when I do, I
spend a lot of very concentratedtime with those individuals and
we're in different outfits andwe're at different venues and
we're taking videos and takingphotos and I might share that
one week of all of that over thecourse of a year.
And for someone who doesn't knowme, they might see that and
(32:36):
think, oh man, every nightNatalie is with a different
group of friends or the samegroup of friends.
They must just be together allthe time, when really it was a
week that I'm still posting sixweeks down the line, or it's a
vacation or a special trip, butwe aren't in these people's
everyday lives to know is thissomething that they do every
week or is this something thatwas on a summer vacation?
(32:58):
So what I tell people is I'mlike, first of all, there are
some people you're going to haveto unfollow because I honestly
have had to do it out of just myown heart and my own like
jealousy, but I've had to blessand block because I'm like I
just can't keep up with this.
Also, I would say that ifthat's something that you desire
and this is something that I'vehad to really ask myself, do I
(33:21):
have capacity to have a group offive women in this stage of my
life right now who I would callup to want to go to get a steak
dinner and take the time to putmy extensions in my fake
eyelashes and go down just forsome highlight reels?
The truth is no.
I'd rather be in my sweats inmy house with a cup of coffee
and that person with meone-on-one.
(33:43):
That's not Instagram worthy.
Kiley (33:47):
Yeah, and and not feeling like you have to post it no.
Because I do that a lot.
I have a lot of moments with mygirlfriends here, and even when
I do go visit my other friends,we're not spending all of that
time making videos and doinglike.
We're just spending time witheach other and that's yeah,
we'll take pictures here andthere, but we're not like trying
to create content.
Natalie (34:12):
We cannot keep up with Gen Z.
They are of a different worldand I have no intention of
highlighting all of the thingsof my day for people to
scrutinize.
I'm kind of like, don't worryabout it.
If it's worthy of being posted,I'll post about it, but assume
that I don't have my extensionsin.
I'm in workout clothes, dressedlike Adam Sandler.
You just need to assume thatyou fly every day unless you see
something different.
Gianina (34:31):
Yeah, that's so funny.
I wanted to ask because I knowyou were in women's ministry for
a long time and I recently justcame across a post that said
women's ministry isn't necessarybecause it is separating the
unity of the church.
Blah, blah, blah.
And it was my first time everreading that perspective and I
(34:54):
still haven't quite processed it.
But I would love to hear youropinion.
Since you've been in it.
Do you feel like it's anecessary part?
Natalie (35:01):
of the church.
I think it depends on themission and vision of your
church, because I will say thatthere are some churches that do
not need it.
They are very heavy in smallgroup communities that are for
gender specific or marriedcouples or with kids, without
kids, young married, old married.
I mean there are some churchesthat are so well constructed
around the small group modelthat you don't need more events
(35:23):
for people to go to.
I also think that churches haveto ask themselves is women's
ministry, men's ministry, anyministry, a sacred cow?
Is it something that is nolonger producing good fruit?
We're just doing it becausethat's what they've been doing
for the last 75 to 100 years,and we've just adopted women's
ministry as something that wemust do, but it's not producing
(35:44):
any good fruit, and so I thinkevery church has to do a really
strong inventory on not justwomen's ministry but any program
that is requiring time, talentand treasure of its volunteers
and its staff.
So that's my first thing.
Second of all, I think thatwomen's ministry has to be seen
as a resource of the church andnot the source, and I have been
(36:06):
part of churches before wherewomen's ministry took just as
much energy out of the staffdoing one night a week with a
full band, full worship, fulltable set up and everything, and
people were exhausted and wewere thinking, gosh, in four
days these people are going tocome into the sanctuary and
receive this exact kind of word,with the same type of energy.
(36:29):
Why is it that we're treatingwomen's ministry like it's a
source and a replacement than asupplement to what's actually
happening in the church?
And so I get it that if youhave a high controlling women's
pastor or a pastor's wife whojust has to have control of
something, women's ministry canbecome very toxic and unhealthy,
(36:50):
and that's why it has to reallycome down to the church, to the
leadership, to make sure thatthat thing is not becoming an
idol in the house and it'sactually serving the people in
the way that best suits themission and vision of the church
.
Gianina (37:03):
Yeah, that's so good.
That best suits the mission andvision of the church.
That's so good.
I think one of the things Ifound we were doing like a night
at church where there was abunch of women and we were all
going around saying thedifferent areas of the church
that we serve in and I was justshocked how many women were like
I'm on this team and this teamand this team and this team and
this team and just 500 differentteams and it just obviously
(37:26):
they have a heart to serve and aheart to love people.
But it's kind of that whole idolthing.
At what point is it an idol?
I just remember thinking inthat moment how much more
impactful we would all be if wepicked one.
There's a hundred of us in aroom, say, for example.
(37:47):
If we each picked one ministryto give a hundred percent to,
versus 10 ministries to give 20%to, that one ministry is going
to thrive so much more.
And gosh, I hate that.
As women, we feel that way,that we feel the need to do so
many things, and I think some ofit comes down to value.
(38:08):
Everybody wants to feel valued,everyone wants to feel like
they have a place, and whetherit's relationships, women's
ministry, just friendships,whatever it is.
But I do wish that we wouldn'tfeel the need to spread
ourselves so thin and to feelbelonging or to feel purpose,
and I don't think that that'ssomething that the Holy Spirit
(38:30):
would necessarily want us to doeither, you know, because then
we lose sight of the importantthing, which is just loving
people and serving God.
Natalie (38:39):
So totally.
I mean, you think about it, ina normal church there are 20% of
the people doing 80% of thework.
That's pretty much thebreakdown.
So a small church you couldhave five women basically
running the whole thing in somecapacities, and what that does
is it gives them a false senseof power, and this is how we
have the silos.
(38:59):
This is where we have uncheckedpower.
Where there can be bullying andgossip is when these women are
given too much control overmultiple areas of the church and
they become irreplaceable.
And what we have to do in ourchurches is get it to a place
where there's at least a 50%attrition when it comes to who's
serving, so that people reallyare being asked to pick one,
(39:22):
pick your favorite thing.
We have it covered.
You know we're not desperateand this way people can't take
ownership of anything that isreally God's and women have this
savior complex.
A lot of them grew up in homeswhere it was fight or flight.
They needed to raise theirsiblings, they had broken homes
(39:43):
and they translate thatdysfunctional leadership into
the church and then they leadfrom that place of trauma versus
leading from a place of healingand they think only they can
fix this.
Only they can be the one to dothis, and then it hurts people
along the way who truly areseeing oh, this is an unhealed
individual and they'll just quit.
(40:04):
Those people won't stay andcontend for that, and I think
that's why a lot of old schoolwomen's ministry had such a bad
reputation was because it wasbeing led by women who were not
called to it.
They just wanted to controlsomething.
Gianina (40:19):
You're stepping on my toes because I think I like just
hearing that I feel like I leadfrom trauma sometimes and that
savior complex of like if Idon't fix it, who's going to fix
this?
Natalie (40:30):
The best advice I ever got was Natalie.
Sometimes you just have to letit burn, and I would say that
that was the worst part of someof the things that I've seen is
watching it burn and the Lordsaying you will not run in there
.
Gianina (40:46):
That's hard.
Kiley (40:48):
Well, and I wonder if some of that, too, is also.
We've gotten to a place wherewomen pride themselves on being
busy and having all of thesedifferent things to do, and so I
wonder if it's like that in thechurch too, like they're doing
this, this and that, so they cansay, like I'm busy, I'm doing
this.
Natalie (41:05):
Listen one of my favorite preachers, becky
Johnson.
She just was on my podcast andwhen she brought up a wonderful
point that women expect to beable to have it all.
They stay home with theirbabies for 18 years and not be
in any work environment, not doanything corporate, not have any
meetings.
They want to be able to be withtheir kids and not have to put
(41:26):
them in kids care or hire ababysitter.
And then the minute those kidsgraduate, they suddenly think
they're going to get a corporate500 job or end up in a high
level corporate church wherethey can walk in and start
calling the shots.
And the truth is is that that isnot reality, that there are
sacrifices that a lot of us, aswomen, are going to have to make
(41:48):
to continue on in our careers,to be able to have authority in
our 40s and 50s, to walk into aroom and have relational equity,
to actually bring change to thelocal church.
But staying home and trying tohave the best of both worlds and
then coming in and creatingchaos in a church staff is also
a very poor example of timemanagement and calling.
(42:10):
And so I want to encouragewomen if you're called into
ministry, the Lord will takecare of your kids.
You don't have to sacrifice oneor the other.
My kids are flourishing intheir relationship with the Lord
and their family, and we havebeen a full-time ministry family
since they were kids, and Ijust think that for a lot of
women who then come into thechurch, they try to exert their
(42:33):
authority and their power in theonly one place.
They feel like they havecontrol, and that is not how we
are to treat sheep, that is nothow we are to lead the people of
God, and this is why women getcalled Jezebels and this is why
women are called controlling andemotional, and this is a huge
problem in the local church andwhy a lot of men are scared to
(42:54):
hire women.
Well, they don't want to serveunder women.
Gianina (43:00):
You know a lot of times they don't want to serve under
a woman because of those exactreasons.
So that totally makes sense.
Well, I would love to know whatare you most?
Natalie (43:12):
excited about with your book launch and kind of what's
next for you with that.
I am so excited for this justto go out to the world.
I think it's going to open upconversations that we've all
wanted to have but haven't knownhow to have them.
It launches September 2nd, andso we're really in the early
release days of this.
Now.
I'm excited to see the world.
I'll be in Canada, we're goingto be at all different parts of
the United States starting inAugust, and for my kids to be
(43:34):
part of it, my daughter'sfriends are actually coming in
on my podcast to talk aboutfriendships in high school and
the nuances of that, and sothere's just so many layers to
this conversation that have yetto be explored, and I'm excited
to have some conversations withwomen in their 70s, all the way
down to these little teenagegirls who have actually a lot of
(43:57):
wisdom.
So I'm thrilled about that.
But yeah, it's been a whirlwindthree books in three years.
I don't recommend it, but I dobelieve that the Lord is
refining His bride, and womenare going to be a huge part of
bringing unity to the house aswe heal together.
Gianina (44:15):
It's so, so good.
I'm so excited for that too.
So thank you so much for beingon here, and is there anything
else that you would want toshare or anything we haven't
covered that you'd want to talkabout?
Natalie (44:26):
Oh, you guys have done an incredible job.
It's been great to be with youall.
Gianina (44:30):
Awesome.
Well, if you don't mind, Iwould love for you to pray for
our listeners, particularlyanybody who maybe is in that
struggle place, either someonewho's struggling in their
relationships with women, maybenot being able to make friends,
or someone who feels likethey've just been hurt and they
don't know how to navigatemoving forward in the church.
Natalie (44:50):
Absolutely, god.
We just thank you so much forbeing the model of what a true
friend is.
Father, you are the God who isnot only the God of the universe
, but you're our father andyou're our friend, and I thank
you that you modeled for us whatselfless love was like when you
sent us your son and God.
I pray, lord, that as we, aswomen, pursue friendship and
(45:12):
deep, sacred sisterhood with oneanother safe sisterhood that we
would be brave and bold andthat we would be the hands and
feet of Jesus, that we would bewhat we need, we would be what
we want, god, that when womencome into contact with us, that
they would feel safe, that theywould feel wanted, that they
would feel invited, and that youwould use even our deepest
insecurities as ways ofvulnerability to draw other
(45:34):
women into knowing who you areand into community and into
relationship with you.
And so, god, I pray for boldness.
I pray that if there are lonelywomen listening to this now,
that they would know that youreyes have never left them, that
you sit with them, and then notyet of this friendship, they're
desperate for God and I praythat you would bring women to
them, god, be it at their jobsor church or their kids'
(45:55):
playdates or schools, lord, thatthere would just be one woman,
lord, that would reach out andremind them that they see them
and that you see them.
And I'm just so grateful, god,that you have built your people
for community and friendship,and we love you in Jesus name.
Amen.
Gianina (46:09):
Amen, Amen.
Well, thank you so so much.
Kiley (46:13):
That was so good, natalie .
Thank you so much for yourhonesty, your leadership and
your willingness to let God useboth the hard and the holy parts
of your story.
Friends, make sure to followNatalie at at raised to stay on
Instagram and mark yourcalendars.
I don't even like womenreleases this September and you
are not going to want to miss it.
(46:34):
We'll link all the details inthe show notes.
If this episode today impactedyou, make sure you share with a
friend and follow along for moreas we walk through life's
victories and valleys together.
And, as always, thank you forlistening to Walkthrough, where
we don't rush the journey butremind each other that God is
right there in the valleywalking us through.
See you next time.
Welcome back to the walkthrough podcast, where we
get honest about life's valleysand victories and what it means
to walk with God right in themiddle of them.
I'm your host, Gianina, alongwith my beautiful friend Kiley,
and today I'm so excited to sitdown with Natalie Runion.
Many of you know her as thevoice behind Race to Stay.
Natalie's honesty, humor andheart for the church have
(00:22):
encouraged thousands, especiallythose who've wrestled with
disappointment, deconstructionand hurt inside faith spaces.
Today we're diving into herstory, her upcoming book I Don't
Even Like Women, and how God iscalling us to something deeper,
even when it's hard.
Well, I'm super excited to haveour amazing guest on.
(00:42):
So welcome, Natalie.
Thank you so much for hoppingon tonight.
You look lovely and it's alwaysit's always so cool to see all
of your I think I've told youthis like you have such cool
personality that comes out inyour clothes and appearance and
everything that you do, andyou're actually someone that I
go to for fashion sense.
So well thank you, it's good tobe with you guys.
(01:04):
Yeah, I'm super excited.
So, for those people thataren't familiar with you, I
would love for you to just sharea little bit about yourself and
your background and just kindof how you came to know the Lord
and anything in your story thatyou'd like to share.
Natalie (01:19):
Yeah, so I'm Natalie Runion.
I live in Kentucky, which isn'ttoo far from you guys.
I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio,as a pastor's kid and was raised
in the charismatic church,lived in church parsonages.
I got saved when I was seven Iremember it and lived my entire
childhood in public schoolsbeing a pastor's kid and just
really grew up in a veryMidwestern, religious, you know,
(01:42):
god-fearing part of the countryand fell in love with the
church as a result of my parentsloving the church and I went to
a public university majored inscience.
I just didn't want to be in thething that my parents had done
my whole life.
But I found Campus Crusade forChrist on campus and it was such
a beautiful way for me to findmy own ministry and so I started
(02:04):
being a worship leader for themand that was during all of the
outpouring of like, all of theoutdoor festivals like Igthus
and Passion.
Louis Giglio had just startedhis ministry, taking Kristi,
knuckles and all of those groupsTomlin and Crowder out, and so
I fell in love with 90s worshipthat pure hearted, no social
(02:26):
media, no YouTube, and reallythat's how I introed back into
ministry, was as a worshipleader in the early 2000s and
did that for about 20 years.
And then, when I was around 40,we had moved our family to
Colorado to be part of a largemegachurch out there and ended
up becoming their women's pastor.
And so did that and raised thisday the ministry that I have
(02:47):
now, which is really for peoplewho have wrestled with their
relationship with the church butwant to stay with Jesus.
That was birth.
Out of that season.
I retired from church staff fora little bit and now we move
back to Kentucky with my husbandwho's gosh?
We've been married 18 years now, two daughters who are almost
13 and 16.
And really that's our hope isjust that we would continue to
(03:10):
introduce people to a God whoreconciles His church and His
people back to each other.
Gianina (03:15):
Yeah, that's so good and I know, just following all
of your posts in your socialmedia over the last few years,
there's just such anauthenticity and I know that
comes at a cost and that comeswith the story and just from
living it, and not necessarilysomething you've read or
something you've seen, but youcan just tell, and everything
that you share, that you have astory and something that you've
(03:36):
lived through and walked through.
And one of the things thatwe've talked a lot on the
podcast so far is there havebeen people who have gone
through church hurt and I know Imean really if you've been in
the church for any amount oftime in any leadership capacity,
because we're all human, it'seasy to be offended by something
and to get hurt by something.
(03:57):
And I know one of the thingsthat someone taught me kind of
earlier on as I was doingministry is the closer you get
to the inside, the more you'regoing to see the flaws, and so
that's something that I've hadto kind of navigate.
But if you would be willing tojust share a little bit of what
that has looked like for you youdon't have to necessarily share
(04:17):
specifics on what happened tokind of cause some of that hurt
and some of like.
Why are you passionate?
Why is this something thatyou're passionate about?
Why did you want to leave?
Why is it something that?
Why is this your platform?
Natalie (04:32):
Well, I always say, if you love something for very long
, there is a very goodlikelihood you will be hurt by
it.
And I think that for a lot ofus who were raised in the church
, we were a little bit naive,especially in the 80s and 90s,
where there wasn't social media,there wasn't a lot of other
churches, that we knew what washappening.
We didn't know if a pastor fell, we didn't know if there was a
(04:53):
moral failure.
You know there was an innocenceto that and I think this whole
deconstruction church hurtmovement.
While I believe it is good andthat we are seeing poor behavior
, abusive behavior, narcissisticbehavior being exposed at
levels that are actually savingpeople's lives, it can also
create a skepticism and acynicism in something that God
(05:16):
has created.
His church is his idea and forme you know really, being a
pastor's kid, I had so much hopein the church and I watched my
own parents walk through apretty devastating hurt my
senior year of high school,which is why I didn't go to
seminary, it's why I didn't goto a Christian college, and
really my whole point was likeGod, these are your people.
No, thank you.
I'm treated better by mynon-Christian friends than I am
(05:40):
by church friends and I thinkthat's really disorienting,
especially for people who didn'thave pastors as parents, who
didn't grow up in this.
They think why would I want tobe part of something that is so
dysfunctional when I can findthat in the world?
And so, rather than heal,explore other faith communities,
explore other leadership, a lotof people just quit and they
(06:03):
just walk away because that'seasier than getting hurt again,
and I don't blame people.
This is like the worst kind ofhurt is church hurt, because we
should know better, the churchshould know better.
And so for me personally, whenI was around 40 and really
struggling with this whole ideaof like God, why is it that
every time I try to be involvedwith your people, I get wounded?
(06:25):
And Raised to Stay was birthedout of that season of me asking
that question like is it okay ifI just quit?
I don't know what the point isof me staying.
You've got all kinds of otherpeople who can do this.
I just want to show up and bean attender on Sunday mornings
like everybody else.
And Raised to Stay was birthedout of that, with John 15 really
being the flagship scripture ofif you'll just remain with me,
(06:46):
if you'll stay with me, ifyou'll tarry with me, then I'll
remain in you and then, as aresult of that, you'll produce
good fruit.
And as I stayed and didn't quitjust because it was hard, I
wasn't being abused, I wasn'tbeing hurt or wounded, I was
being challenged and the Lordwas allowing it.
As I stayed, good fruit didbecome part of my story, and
(07:09):
that was in the form of aministry that's now having a
global presence, which is anhonor, but I think for all of us
, I hope that's a testimony thatif we remain in Him, he remains
in us and produces good fruit.
Gianina (07:21):
Yeah, and it's so good to remember that any of us can
be the offender as well.
I was actually at a women'sconference a couple months ago
and one of them said somethingthat was just transforming is,
you know, we listen to storieslike David and Goliath and we
automatically think we're Davidand there's this big Goliath
that we have to fight, andsometimes we're Goliath,
(07:42):
sometimes we're a bystander,sometimes we're David's brothers
and so we're Goliaths,sometimes we're a bystander,
sometimes we're David's brothers, and so we just really have to
see ourselves in all of thosesituations.
And I think that when I mean, Ithink back to how many times I
probably hurt somebody andoffended somebody along the
journey as well, and that'sreally humbling too.
But how do you differentiatebetween being hurt and offended
(08:04):
and abuse?
Because I think we kind of grewup in the same era where I mean
I grew up where, the more thatyou take, you're being holy.
You know what I mean.
Like if I take somebodyneglecting me or being rude to
me or being condescendingtowards me, if I can take it and
(08:26):
take it to the Lord and justlet it go, then I'm more holy
than somebody who speaks upagainst it.
So how do you kind ofdifferentiate between those
things?
Natalie (08:36):
Yeah, it's like the persecuted church, like you know
, it's like our badge of honoris that we've been wounded, and
I think that, yes, there's somenatural persecution that will
come to us as Christians, but itshouldn't be at the hands of
fellow Christians, and I thinkthat that is one of the reasons
why Jesus, the disciples andPaul were so hard on the
(08:56):
Pharisees and went so hard atthem, john the Baptist, because
they knew the religious peoplewere probably going to be a
bigger problem than the sinnersat the end of the day.
And so I just I feel like for alot of us we have to understand
there's a difference betweensomething happening to us
against our will.
So abuse is something thathappens to us.
(09:16):
We can't stop it, we can'tcontrol it.
It's sexual, physical,emotional, spiritual.
It's usually at a powerdifferential, where it's coming
from someone who is over us, anauthority whom we have been told
touch not god's anointed ones.
We have been told they knowwhat's best for us.
It goes down to like daddy hitsme because he loves me, kind of
(09:38):
thing, where we're like this isjust part of, you know, this is
part of my experience as beingan intern and no, none of that
is true.
Abuse, especially spiritualabuse, can be hard to define if
it's not blatantly sexual orphysical.
But these are things that arehappening to you.
It's words that are beingspoken over you to crush your
spirit and break your heart.
It's people using scripture tojustify toxic, narcissistic
(10:00):
behavior that is ruining yourlife ultimately, and changing
the course and making you feelas if you have no anointing and
power.
It's really taking away fromthings that God has given to you
, whereas offense is somethingthat we choose to pick up.
And this is something that wenot only choose to pick up, but
we ask others to carry it withus.
(10:20):
And that's why offense is thisdouble edge sin, because it's
not only a sin on our end forpicking it up, but it's a sin
for placing it on another personand saying aren't you mad at
that pastor too?
You should be mad at them too,because you don't know what they
did to me and I'm sure they'redoing it to you.
And so offense becomes divisive, it becomes controversial, it
(10:41):
becomes gossip, whereas abusemost of the time abuse victims
are not talking about theirabuse, they're hiding, they're
in shame, they're in fear,whereas offense is loud and bold
and prideful, and I had toreally search my heart.
I just did a post that said,what if I told you some of my
church hurt was my fault?
Because I think that offensereally played a huge part in why
(11:05):
I wasn't able to heal asquickly from some of the things
that I encountered, especiallyin my older years of ministry,
when I should have known better.
Kiley (11:14):
Can I ask, when we get to a certain age, when we've had
some life behind us, we canthink about a situation usually
maybe not in the moment, but wecan think more clearly about it
and so, with the race, to say,if you just stay in it, stay
with God, stay the course andI'll bless you through that how
(11:37):
would you navigate?
You have teenagers now, so howwould you navigate having your
own child maybe go throughsomething when their brains are
still developing anyway and theycan't think beyond that?
What would you say to parentswho are maybe, or I don't know
how many young people listen tothis podcast?
But if there is somebody younglistening to it, like, how how
(11:59):
would you help somebody of ayounger age maybe navigate
church bird or something thathas happened where they still
they still want to be there forGod?
But it's just this, like thiswrestling between the two.
Natalie (12:12):
Yeah, I mean, you have to remember like there is no
junior Holy Spirit.
So our kids are very muchdiscerning.
They are very much aware of thethings that their parents are
talking about behind closeddoors.
They know when something's amokin the church.
They're very aware when aleader is off.
And one thing that I tellparents and we've done this with
our kids is that we never tryto defend the church First of
(12:34):
all.
God doesn't need us to defendHis church, and if there is a
youth pastor that is out of line, if there is a pastor who's
behaving poorly, we don'tsugarcoat that and we don't try
to make excuses for it.
We have the conversations withour nine-year-old, with our
13-year-old.
Now they're much older, buteven now there's been some
(12:54):
scandal around some older churchthat we were part of, and one
of the little girls who stillattends there called my daughter
to just like process throughbecause her parents are still on
staff there, and you know wedon't try to shut that down.
They need to be able to processit too in their little minds,
and so we just say, hey, as longas they're not giving
(13:16):
misinformation and creatingchaos outside of that, we want
them to have safe places tounpack what's happening in their
lives and what they're seeingtheir parents go through.
So I think, one, we don't defendthe church.
Two, we definitely try to bringas much restoration and hope in
saying that, yeah, it might'vebeen happening here, but it's
not happening everywhere.
We don't villainize the entireglobal church based off of what
(13:38):
one or two bad experiencesinform us of.
And finally, I think we have tolet our kids come to their own
conclusions.
I don't ever want to look at mychild and be the definitive God
answer in their life, and so,with my kids at the age right
now where one's going to be ajunior in high school, she's
coming to me and saying, hey, Iwant to be, you know, really
(13:58):
involved with Young Life thisyear and I really want to be
involved with Fellowship ofChristian Athletes, which might
not allow her to be in her youthgroup.
And so we're asking her OK,pray through this.
Like which one is it that Godis inviting you into, because
you can't be at three places atthe same time.
And so really putting that ballin their court and saying you
hear from God too, like if youfeel comfortable with these
(14:20):
people, if you feel like this iswhere God wants you, then we
trust that God is moving.
We're still your parents, wecan still yay or nay things, but
we really want them to haveautonomy when it comes to some
of these things.
Okay, that's so good.
Gianina (14:35):
Well, I'm excited to chat a little bit about your new
upcoming book.
This is a topic that I lovebecause I was one of those.
I feel, like Kylie, you'vealways had strong girlfriends
and you have like so many.
I am like so jealous of thelong term friendships that
(14:55):
you've had and I don't reallyhave a lot of women friends that
I've been friends with for morethan 10 years and, looking back
, it's because I was always thatguy's girl that I was friends
with all the guys and my badJavara was like I just don't get
along with girls, I just getalong with guys better.
And so this is a topic and now Ido have a lot more female
(15:20):
friends.
I think once you get married,that kind of shifts a little bit
.
You know, I'm not going to befriends with all the guys while
I'm married and I have a lotmore girlfriends, but I still
really struggle with deep femalerelationships and, crazy enough
, especially in the church.
And so I'm excited to kind ofchat about this.
(15:42):
If you don't mind sharing alittle bit about your vision
with this book, the title andhow you came up with that this
is your new job and I'm gratefulbecause the pastor at the time
he saw I had a teaching gift.
Natalie (16:11):
I didn't see it yet, but clearly he was hearing from
the Lord, and so I can't beangry about this transition now,
but in the moment I was lividand I really felt like God bait
and switched me.
He had moved us this far away.
Now I'm being moved out of myfavorite thing to something that
I never said, that I everwanted to do, and it took me the
entire time being that women'spastor of those eight
congregations over those people,to really truly fall in love
(16:34):
with women in a way where I wasliterally brokenhearted over
them and I wanted to see themsucceed.
I wanted families to berestored, and that was a process
.
Now, when I resigned and Istarted traveling the world
speaking at women's conferences,I would get picked up from the
airport by women who were onstaff pastor's wives and I would
(16:55):
say, hey, how did you get intothis position as women's
director or whatever they werecalled?
And nine times out of 10, theywould say I don't know, I don't
really even like women, I'm just, you know, this is where I find
myself and I kept thinking, youknow, for this to be a common,
universal, global, like sayingwe need to like actually talk
(17:18):
more about this.
And so I went to my publisherand said I think this is book
three.
They thought I was insane.
Thankfully, I've had two otherbooks to prove that I kind of
know what I'm doing.
And so they agreed to let mecall it this, as long as we came
up with a subtitle, which isand other lies that get in the
way of sacred sisterhood, thatwould redeem it to a positive
spin.
And so, really, this book issaying look, we all say this
(17:41):
common phrase, but what are weactually saying when we're
saying it?
Kiley (17:44):
look, we all say this common phrase, but what are we
actually saying when we'resaying it?
I think it's funny, janina,that you mentioned that, because
I, natalie, when I startedreading this, I had that
visceral like oh gosh, thecafeteria, the Halloween costume
, all of that.
And I mean I, growing up inschool, I did not have a lot of
(18:11):
girlfriends.
I had.
I did hang out with a lot ofguys.
I had maybe two or three reallyclose girlfriends and the group
of friends that that, janina,you see me talking about now all
came after my college.
Some of them the big group ofthem, I always say I wiggled my
way in because they were all mysister's friends first, and I'm
(18:32):
three years younger than her andnow we're all just together.
But it's interesting that thethere I don't have a lot of like
girlfriends that I've madethrough the church.
So why do you think it is sodifficult for females to have
(18:52):
that fruitful friendship,especially women of faith, like
I know?
You mentioned competition andcomparison, and are those just
the main reasons, or do youthink that there's something
else deeper there?
Natalie (19:07):
I think we all have this innate desire to be wanted
and to be included and to beinvolved.
But there are so many scriptsthat have been written over us
since we were little girls thatby the time we hit adulthood and
we're starting new jobs, whichhas its own insecurities, and
we're looking for our futurehusbands, which have their own
insecurities.
And then we are marrying andtrying to have children.
(19:32):
Some of us can, some of us arenot as able to, and there's all
of this life stress that thenpiles on things like competition
and comparison and all of this.
And so I think those scriptsfollow us from the playground
where we're not able to playwith people who don't look like
us or aren't as popular orwhatever.
Those all translate and thenthey sort of combust in our 20s
(19:54):
and 30s to a point where a lotof women just choose to isolate
and say you know what?
I don't have it in me to searchfor this.
I think we're also very tribal.
I think that once we find ourpeople, we can be very exclusive
.
We're also very tribal.
I think that once we find ourpeople, we can be very exclusive
.
I know that, especially in theChristian college environment,
that if a bunch of you that wentto the same Christian college
(20:15):
all end up at the same church.
Good luck busting into that.
Christian sorority culture isworse than any public sorority
culture I've ever been part of,and to the point where I've
joined church staff before andintroduced myself to the wives
of those I'd be like servingbeside, and I've gotten texts
before that says no thanks, Ihave enough friends and you know
(20:38):
, and it's that tribalism, it'sthat like no, you can't sit with
us at 30 and 40.
That really, I think not onlyimpacts very confident women
like myself, but if you canimagine me, I'm 30 and 40.
That really, I think not onlyimpacts very confident women
like myself, but if you canimagine me, I'm like an outgoing
extrovert.
I don't require a lot.
Imagine that single mom or thatwoman who's never tried a
women's event before or comingin the door and to get that kind
(20:59):
of reception would absolutelyterrify them and make them never
want to come back.
So, as Christian women, I thinkyou pile on the world scripts
along with some of our otherChristian-ese things that have
happened to us, and it's aperfect recipe for us to become
very strong cliques that just gowith us into our 50s, 60s and
(21:20):
70s, until we just kind ofeither end up alone or we end up
in the same echo chamber westarted in in our 20s, janina, I
remember when we first movedhere.
We just kind of either end upalone or we end up in the same
echo chamber we started in inour twenties.
Kiley (21:27):
Janina, I remember when we first moved here, that was
one of the first things youactually said to me with making
friends, because that was onethat I think anytime anybody
moves somewhere, the hardestthing is leaving their family
and friends.
And like, how am I going to,how am I going to meet new
people?
And she was saying, you know,just don't, am I going to, how
am I going to meet new people?
(21:48):
And she was saying, you know,just don't, just don't be
surprised if you see thesegroups of women that will
literally say no, thanks, I haveenough friends.
And it's not because I don'tthink it's because they want to
be mean, I think they're just socomfortable with the familiar
and they, you know, it's like,no, that's okay, not thinking
about who it's affecting.
Natalie (22:08):
On the other end, yeah, and a lot of them have not.
A lot of Christian women havegrown up or at least spent their
after college years and on inthe same churches because their
husbands are on staff, whateverthe circumstances, so they've
never had to be theuncomfortable new girl.
And I think for those of uswho've had to move like they've
(22:30):
never had to be theuncomfortable new girl, and I
think for those of us who've hadto move like my children have
had to move schools twicethey're very familiar with
having to make new friends andbe the new kid.
I think that everybody in churchshould have to feel like the
new kid once or twice, to reallyfeel that tension of walking
into a foyer all by yourself ora women's group or a conference
and having to find someone whoabout looks your age which you
(22:50):
know our moms all did that rightLike we'd be in line for VBS,
go talk to her.
She looks about your age orwhatever.
Like that doesn't float anymorewhen you're in your twenties,
thirties and forties, mostlybecause we can't tell how old
people are anymore, but alsobecause, like I actually would
(23:11):
rather hang out with some womenin their fifties and sixties who
have survived this a lot longerthan I have.
So really we almost have toshift our mentality when we walk
into churches, when we'restanding in church foyers to say
who looks like they couldreally use a hello or a hug or a
welcome from me, and we need tobe what we need and that can be
hard when you're insecure.
Gianina (23:29):
I think one of the things that really helped me I'm
not on our greeting team, whichalways surprises people,
because I'm, like you, veryextroverted and outgoing, but I
think it's because I don't likebeing assigned to one station, I
just like going everywhere andtalking to everybody.
But one of the things someonesaid is you know, you don't have
(23:51):
to have the capacity to befriends with everybody who walks
in the door, but you can be aconnector.
So if you're welcoming tosomebody and they're interested
in golfing, you can say oh mygosh, my friend Jessica loves
golfing too.
I'm going to connect you guys.
So just because you're awelcoming face to somebody and
(24:11):
you may not have the capacity tobe 500 people's best friend
that walked in on a Sundaymorning, but you can connect
them to other people.
That's always hugely beneficialtoo.
But one thing I wanted just totake some time and ask you
because this is something that Istruggle with a lot so this is
me getting vulnerable is I don'tgenerally feel like I compete
(24:36):
with other women.
I'm a fairly confident person,but I feel like I'm constantly
being competed with, like womenkind of.
Maybe it's because I amconfident and strong and
outgoing and whatever, but Igenuinely just want to be
friends with everyone and cheereverybody on and I want to see
everybody succeed and do whatGod has called them to do.
(24:58):
But I feel like when I try tomake friendships with women who
are in that same boat, a lot oftimes I feel like they're trying
to push me down or they'rebeing competitive with me.
And how do you navigate thatlike that competitiveness in
church?
Because obviously it's there,but how do you?
Natalie (25:19):
deal with that.
It's so interesting because Ieven hear myself like saying
these things to my kids.
Like my daughter will come homeand say this girl has been
really competitive with me involleyball or whatever.
And here's what my instinct isto say is oh honey, she's just
jealous of you.
Like they're just jealous.
Well, here's what that does.
It makes my daughter feel likeshe has to dumb down or dull her
(25:41):
shine to not be the target ofanother woman's insecurity, and
I don't want that for mydaughter.
I don't want her to feel like,in order for her to have
friendship with this girl who'sclearly got something going on
in her life that she can't beexactly who God has made her to
be.
Now that doesn't mean we don'tneed self-regulation and
emotional IQ, but I shouldn'thave to not be a good athlete or
(26:03):
not get good grades or have abestselling book because
somebody in my peer group isthreatened or whatever.
But when we say women arejealous, what we're doing is
we're telling the other girllike you just need to not be so
loud or so bold or so bright sothat you don't ruffle her
feathers.
No, actually, these women needto own up to their assignment.
(26:25):
They need to focus on their ownrace and I am not going to be
collateral damage to theirdysfunction and that takes a lot
.
This takes a lot on socialmedia.
It takes a lot because I'llhave people say well, you didn't
even have a very big platformwhen you started Raised to Stay,
how'd you get a bestseller book?
I know these things are beingsaid and so much of it is out of
(26:46):
my control.
It's the Holy Spirit, it's theLord, it's Him offering favor.
And how do you give credit tosomething you can't see In their
minds?
Well, you must have a famousfather or you must be working
for a megachurch.
It's all these excuses.
We hear Taylor Swift talk aboutthis all the time that when all
of her songs started gettingGrammys, people assumed there
(27:06):
was some guy, that was someghostwriter, writing her music,
because surely a woman couldn'thave this many hits.
And so we have to remember wehave, as women, not only men who
think we can't do it, but ourown sisters who think we can't
do it, and so I've had to reallyjust put my head down, and when
I am friends with people who Ican feel are starting to get in
(27:27):
that competitive state with me,I have learned that generosity
is the grand, greatest antidote,that the minute that I become
generous with my platform, theminute that I start speaking
words of life over their thingthat they're working on, and I
start to combat that because Ican sense it it goes away
instantly because now they'renot seeing me as a competition,
(27:48):
but they're a collaborator.
And this takes a lot ofself-control and it makes you
have to crucify your fleshbecause everything in you wants
to say you're just jealous, butactually that's probably not
true.
There is something brokeninside of that person that makes
them feel like you're acompetitor, and this is where we
(28:09):
have to start using the word ofGod.
We have to start digging intoour identity in Christ and just
trusting that the Lord will giveus ways to encourage them and
speak life over them, even whenthey're kind of being jerks in
our space.
And I've been there, though.
I've been the jealous friend,I've been the one wondering how
did they hit that list and howdid they do that?
And I have to correct myselfall the time, and so I am.
(28:32):
I am like offender number oneover here.
Kiley (28:35):
Yeah.
So if, if someone is listeningthat has thought like, hey, I've
, I've been hurt by women or yes, I have been the one that's
been withdrawn, what kind ofencouragement would you give
them?
Natalie (28:50):
You're not alone.
I mean, we're all swinging bythe seat of our pants in this.
Listen, I don't have a gaggleof girls that I do girls
weekends with.
I have like five women that Ican call on any given day and be
like hey, can you just pray forme?
This is going on.
I don't do coffee dates everyday with women.
I'm not like having sleepoversand braiding people's hair Like
I'm a busy woman with children.
(29:11):
You are not alone.
But at the same time, when Istep foot through my church for
your doors, there are womenlooking for me and I'm looking
for women, and that is somethingthat I look forward to.
After I've had a week ofmomming hard and travel and
writing, I look forward toseeing these women, whom I may
not be best friends with, butwho make me smile and who make
(29:34):
me laugh and who encourage me.
And then if I get a random textfrom one of them that says hey,
can you meet for coffee?
Sometimes I can and sometimes Ican't, and that's okay.
We just need to find people inour small groups, in our
playdate groups, in our jobs,even if they're not believers.
And I think, as Christian women,we think well, I can't hang out
with non-Christians.
You absolutely need to behanging out with non-Christians
(29:57):
because there is a differentkind of a sisterhood that comes
with working beside people thatmay not know Jesus but who trust
you, because they will knowJesus, because they know you,
and so just looking for it inunconventional places.
Some of the best people I'vemet have been in the grocery
store line and we've madefriends through Instagram and
they send me words ofencouragement all the time and
(30:19):
we've not seen each other sincethat grocery store line.
So I think we think it has tolook like it did when we were 15
and it's not.
It's not going to look likethat.
So just be committed.
One of my favorite pastors saysthat community comes to the
committed Like if you wantcommunity, you're going to have
to commit to it, and that meansputting your heart on the line.
It really does, um, but Ihaven't regretted that, um.
(30:43):
But again, I'm not runningaround with a bunch of girls
having, like, putting onsequined dresses and going out
and, you know, having parties onFriday nights like, well, not
college.
Kiley (30:52):
I'm glad that you mentioned that because I found
myself thinking the other dayyou know, we're on social media
so much and we see all thesereels of all these girlfriends
doing these things together andlike the funny videos or the
when I I I have connected withpeople here, but of course I
still have a lot of my heart inCalifornia where all of my other
(31:16):
friends are and stuff, and so Ifind myself comparing like well
, how come, how come I I don'tdo those videos with people and
how come I don't do this?
Or how come?
And what would you, what wouldyou say to me to encourage me
out of that like comparisonstage, because social media is
(31:37):
it's great for some things andit's really not great for other
things, and it just kind ofmakes me, and possibly, I'm sure
, other people, it makes me kindof sad that I don't have, you
know, that particular thing youknow to do with somebody.
Natalie (31:53):
Well, I mean, you have to remember that this is what
these are highlight reels, right, like it's not everyday life.
And we know, we know this.
Now let's let's not discreditthe fact that there might be
some moms that are out everyweekend having wine and cheese
night and they have babysittersand they can do that, okay, but
the average woman, my guess is,probably gets away to see her
friends.
(32:13):
I get to go to Colorado to seemy girlfriends and when I do, I
spend a lot of very concentratedtime with those individuals and
we're in different outfits andwe're at different venues and
we're taking videos and takingphotos and I might share that
one week of all of that over thecourse of a year.
And for someone who doesn't knowme, they might see that and
(32:36):
think, oh man, every nightNatalie is with a different
group of friends or the samegroup of friends.
They must just be together allthe time, when really it was a
week that I'm still posting sixweeks down the line, or it's a
vacation or a special trip, butwe aren't in these people's
everyday lives to know is thissomething that they do every
week or is this something thatwas on a summer vacation?
(32:58):
So what I tell people is I'mlike, first of all, there are
some people you're going to haveto unfollow because I honestly
have had to do it out of just myown heart and my own like
jealousy, but I've had to blessand block because I'm like I
just can't keep up with this.
Also, I would say that ifthat's something that you desire
and this is something that I'vehad to really ask myself, do I
(33:21):
have capacity to have a group offive women in this stage of my
life right now who I would callup to want to go to get a steak
dinner and take the time to putmy extensions in my fake
eyelashes and go down just forsome highlight reels?
The truth is no.
I'd rather be in my sweats inmy house with a cup of coffee
and that person with meone-on-one.
(33:43):
That's not Instagram worthy.
Kiley (33:47):
Yeah, and and not feeling like you have to post it no.
Because I do that a lot.
I have a lot of moments with mygirlfriends here, and even when
I do go visit my other friends,we're not spending all of that
time making videos and doinglike.
We're just spending time witheach other and that's yeah,
we'll take pictures here andthere, but we're not like trying
to create content.
Natalie (34:12):
We cannot keep up with Gen Z.
They are of a different worldand I have no intention of
highlighting all of the thingsof my day for people to
scrutinize.
I'm kind of like, don't worryabout it.
If it's worthy of being posted,I'll post about it, but assume
that I don't have my extensionsin.
I'm in workout clothes, dressedlike Adam Sandler.
You just need to assume thatyou fly every day unless you see
something different.
Gianina (34:31):
Yeah, that's so funny.
I wanted to ask because I knowyou were in women's ministry for
a long time and I recently justcame across a post that said
women's ministry isn't necessarybecause it is separating the
unity of the church.
Blah, blah, blah.
And it was my first time everreading that perspective and I
(34:54):
still haven't quite processed it.
But I would love to hear youropinion.
Since you've been in it.
Do you feel like it's anecessary part?
Natalie (35:01):
of the church.
I think it depends on themission and vision of your
church, because I will say thatthere are some churches that do
not need it.
They are very heavy in smallgroup communities that are for
gender specific or marriedcouples or with kids, without
kids, young married, old married.
I mean there are some churchesthat are so well constructed
around the small group modelthat you don't need more events
(35:23):
for people to go to.
I also think that churches haveto ask themselves is women's
ministry, men's ministry, anyministry, a sacred cow?
Is it something that is nolonger producing good fruit?
We're just doing it becausethat's what they've been doing
for the last 75 to 100 years,and we've just adopted women's
ministry as something that wemust do, but it's not producing
(35:44):
any good fruit, and so I thinkevery church has to do a really
strong inventory on not justwomen's ministry but any program
that is requiring time, talentand treasure of its volunteers
and its staff.
So that's my first thing.
Second of all, I think thatwomen's ministry has to be seen
as a resource of the church andnot the source, and I have been
(36:06):
part of churches before wherewomen's ministry took just as
much energy out of the staffdoing one night a week with a
full band, full worship, fulltable set up and everything, and
people were exhausted and wewere thinking, gosh, in four
days these people are going tocome into the sanctuary and
receive this exact kind of word,with the same type of energy.
(36:29):
Why is it that we're treatingwomen's ministry like it's a
source and a replacement than asupplement to what's actually
happening in the church?
And so I get it that if youhave a high controlling women's
pastor or a pastor's wife whojust has to have control of
something, women's ministry canbecome very toxic and unhealthy,
(36:50):
and that's why it has to reallycome down to the church, to the
leadership, to make sure thatthat thing is not becoming an
idol in the house and it'sactually serving the people in
the way that best suits themission and vision of the church
.
Gianina (37:03):
Yeah, that's so good.
That best suits the mission andvision of the church.
That's so good.
I think one of the things Ifound we were doing like a night
at church where there was abunch of women and we were all
going around saying thedifferent areas of the church
that we serve in and I was justshocked how many women were like
I'm on this team and this teamand this team and this team and
this team and just 500 differentteams and it just obviously
(37:26):
they have a heart to serve and aheart to love people.
But it's kind of that whole idolthing.
At what point is it an idol?
I just remember thinking inthat moment how much more
impactful we would all be if wepicked one.
There's a hundred of us in aroom, say, for example.
(37:47):
If we each picked one ministryto give a hundred percent to,
versus 10 ministries to give 20%to, that one ministry is going
to thrive so much more.
And gosh, I hate that.
As women, we feel that way,that we feel the need to do so
many things, and I think some ofit comes down to value.
(38:08):
Everybody wants to feel valued,everyone wants to feel like
they have a place, and whetherit's relationships, women's
ministry, just friendships,whatever it is.
But I do wish that we wouldn'tfeel the need to spread
ourselves so thin and to feelbelonging or to feel purpose,
and I don't think that that'ssomething that the Holy Spirit
(38:30):
would necessarily want us to doeither, you know, because then
we lose sight of the importantthing, which is just loving
people and serving God.
Natalie (38:39):
So totally.
I mean, you think about it, ina normal church there are 20% of
the people doing 80% of thework.
That's pretty much thebreakdown.
So a small church you couldhave five women basically
running the whole thing in somecapacities, and what that does
is it gives them a false senseof power, and this is how we
have the silos.
(38:59):
This is where we have uncheckedpower.
Where there can be bullying andgossip is when these women are
given too much control overmultiple areas of the church and
they become irreplaceable.
And what we have to do in ourchurches is get it to a place
where there's at least a 50%attrition when it comes to who's
serving, so that people reallyare being asked to pick one,
(39:22):
pick your favorite thing.
We have it covered.
You know we're not desperateand this way people can't take
ownership of anything that isreally God's and women have this
savior complex.
A lot of them grew up in homeswhere it was fight or flight.
They needed to raise theirsiblings, they had broken homes
(39:43):
and they translate thatdysfunctional leadership into
the church and then they leadfrom that place of trauma versus
leading from a place of healingand they think only they can
fix this.
Only they can be the one to dothis, and then it hurts people
along the way who truly areseeing oh, this is an unhealed
individual and they'll just quit.
(40:04):
Those people won't stay andcontend for that, and I think
that's why a lot of old schoolwomen's ministry had such a bad
reputation was because it wasbeing led by women who were not
called to it.
They just wanted to controlsomething.
Gianina (40:19):
You're stepping on my toes because I think I like just
hearing that I feel like I leadfrom trauma sometimes and that
savior complex of like if Idon't fix it, who's going to fix
this?
Natalie (40:30):
The best advice I ever got was Natalie.
Sometimes you just have to letit burn, and I would say that
that was the worst part of someof the things that I've seen is
watching it burn and the Lordsaying you will not run in there
.
Gianina (40:46):
That's hard.
Kiley (40:48):
Well, and I wonder if some of that, too, is also.
We've gotten to a place wherewomen pride themselves on being
busy and having all of thesedifferent things to do, and so I
wonder if it's like that in thechurch too, like they're doing
this, this and that, so they cansay, like I'm busy, I'm doing
this.
Natalie (41:05):
Listen one of my favorite preachers, becky
Johnson.
She just was on my podcast andwhen she brought up a wonderful
point that women expect to beable to have it all.
They stay home with theirbabies for 18 years and not be
in any work environment, not doanything corporate, not have any
meetings.
They want to be able to be withtheir kids and not have to put
(41:26):
them in kids care or hire ababysitter.
And then the minute those kidsgraduate, they suddenly think
they're going to get a corporate500 job or end up in a high
level corporate church wherethey can walk in and start
calling the shots.
And the truth is is that that isnot reality, that there are
sacrifices that a lot of us, aswomen, are going to have to make
(41:48):
to continue on in our careers,to be able to have authority in
our 40s and 50s, to walk into aroom and have relational equity,
to actually bring change to thelocal church.
But staying home and trying tohave the best of both worlds and
then coming in and creatingchaos in a church staff is also
a very poor example of timemanagement and calling.
(42:10):
And so I want to encouragewomen if you're called into
ministry, the Lord will takecare of your kids.
You don't have to sacrifice oneor the other.
My kids are flourishing intheir relationship with the Lord
and their family, and we havebeen a full-time ministry family
since they were kids, and Ijust think that for a lot of
women who then come into thechurch, they try to exert their
(42:33):
authority and their power in theonly one place.
They feel like they havecontrol, and that is not how we
are to treat sheep, that is nothow we are to lead the people of
God, and this is why women getcalled Jezebels and this is why
women are called controlling andemotional, and this is a huge
problem in the local church andwhy a lot of men are scared to
(42:54):
hire women.
Well, they don't want to serveunder women.
Gianina (43:00):
You know a lot of times they don't want to serve under
a woman because of those exactreasons.
So that totally makes sense.
Well, I would love to know whatare you most?
Natalie (43:12):
excited about with your book launch and kind of what's
next for you with that.
I am so excited for this justto go out to the world.
I think it's going to open upconversations that we've all
wanted to have but haven't knownhow to have them.
It launches September 2nd, andso we're really in the early
release days of this.
Now.
I'm excited to see the world.
I'll be in Canada, we're goingto be at all different parts of
the United States starting inAugust, and for my kids to be
(43:34):
part of it, my daughter'sfriends are actually coming in
on my podcast to talk aboutfriendships in high school and
the nuances of that, and sothere's just so many layers to
this conversation that have yetto be explored, and I'm excited
to have some conversations withwomen in their 70s, all the way
down to these little teenagegirls who have actually a lot of
(43:57):
wisdom.
So I'm thrilled about that.
But yeah, it's been a whirlwindthree books in three years.
I don't recommend it, but I dobelieve that the Lord is
refining His bride, and womenare going to be a huge part of
bringing unity to the house aswe heal together.
Gianina (44:15):
It's so, so good.
I'm so excited for that too.
So thank you so much for beingon here, and is there anything
else that you would want toshare or anything we haven't
covered that you'd want to talkabout?
Natalie (44:26):
Oh, you guys have done an incredible job.
It's been great to be with youall.
Gianina (44:30):
Awesome.
Well, if you don't mind, Iwould love for you to pray for
our listeners, particularlyanybody who maybe is in that
struggle place, either someonewho's struggling in their
relationships with women, maybenot being able to make friends,
or someone who feels likethey've just been hurt and they
don't know how to navigatemoving forward in the church.
Natalie (44:50):
Absolutely, god.
We just thank you so much forbeing the model of what a true
friend is.
Father, you are the God who isnot only the God of the universe
, but you're our father andyou're our friend, and I thank
you that you modeled for us whatselfless love was like when you
sent us your son and God.
I pray, lord, that as we, aswomen, pursue friendship and
(45:12):
deep, sacred sisterhood with oneanother safe sisterhood that we
would be brave and bold andthat we would be the hands and
feet of Jesus, that we would bewhat we need, we would be what
we want, god, that when womencome into contact with us, that
they would feel safe, that theywould feel wanted, that they
would feel invited, and that youwould use even our deepest
insecurities as ways ofvulnerability to draw other
(45:34):
women into knowing who you areand into community and into
relationship with you.
And so, god, I pray for boldness.
I pray that if there are lonelywomen listening to this now,
that they would know that youreyes have never left them, that
you sit with them, and then notyet of this friendship, they're
desperate for God and I praythat you would bring women to
them, god, be it at their jobsor church or their kids'
(45:55):
playdates or schools, lord, thatthere would just be one woman,
lord, that would reach out andremind them that they see them
and that you see them.
And I'm just so grateful, god,that you have built your people
for community and friendship,and we love you in Jesus name.
Amen.
Gianina (46:09):
Amen, Amen.
Well, thank you so so much.
Kiley (46:13):
That was so good, natalie .
Thank you so much for yourhonesty, your leadership and
your willingness to let God useboth the hard and the holy parts
of your story.
Friends, make sure to followNatalie at at raised to stay on
Instagram and mark yourcalendars.
I don't even like womenreleases this September and you
are not going to want to miss it.
(46:34):
We'll link all the details inthe show notes.
If this episode today impactedyou, make sure you share with a
friend and follow along for moreas we walk through life's
victories and valleys together.
And, as always, thank you forlistening to Walkthrough, where
we don't rush the journey butremind each other that God is
right there in the valleywalking us through.
See you next time.
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