1.1 The Trouble with Force

Welcome to the first episode of Walking With the Tao, a podcast where two educators take hikes and discuss the Tao Te Ching. In each episode, we choose a different passage and discuss it while we walk in nature. The conversations are wide ranging, relevant, and relatable.

In this episode, we introduce the podcast and discuss section 29 of the Tao Te Ching while walking along the Chattahoochee River in Georgia. Here’s the passage, from the Red Pine’s translation:

Trying to govern the world with force

I see this not succeeding

the world is a spiritual thing

it can't be forced

to force it is to harm it

to control it is to lose it

sometimes things lead

sometimes they follow

sometimes blow hot

sometimes blow cold

sometimes expand

sometimes collapse

therefore the sage avoids extremes

avoids extravagance

avoids excess

The passage is a good place to begin a discussion of the Tao Te Ching because it touches a few of the key concepts—non-action, balance, and avoiding extremes. Lao Tzu begins by cautioning against using force. “To force it is to harm it / to control it is to lose it.” Our conversation is wide ranging, but it begins from here.

Our discussion mainly revolves around force. What does Lao Tzu likely mean by force? How does force always produce a counter-reaction? What are its negative consequences, in family life, work, leadership, and foreign affairs?

A note about the title: The original title of this podcast was Thirty Spokes. We changed the title to Walking With the Tao in midstream. We decided not to edit out references to the original title.

The music for the intro and outro comes from the song “Changes,” composed and recorded by Ryan Cherry.