September 9, 2025 • 22 mins
Pippa Hudson speaks to true legend in travel publishing – Hilary Bradt about Bradt Travel Guides, which has grown into the biggest independently-owned travel publisher in the UK and US.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're with Cape Talk. Listen is Papa Hutton on lunch.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Let's go and do some armchair travel and in wonder
the world today. We are really privileged to have an
absolute legend of travel publishing with us in studio, Hillary Brutt.
If you ever found yourself somewhere off the beaten path
and in the days before the internet particularly reached for
a guide book to help you, the chances are it
might have been one of Hillary's that you used, because
(00:29):
just over fifty years ago she and her then husband
George wrote their first guide book, A Little Typewritten Guide
to Trekking in Peru and Bolivia, And all these years later,
Bratt travel guides are known around the world. It is,
in fact the biggest independently owned travel publishing outfit in
the UK and US in particular. And Hillary has had
(00:50):
an extraordinary life that has taken her to every nook
and cranny of this planet. Just about She's just released
her own autobiography called Taking the Risk My Adventures in
Travel and Publishing, and she is he with us in
studio today. What a privilege, and welcome to Cape Talk.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you very much, Peppa.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Obviously, the book is full of incredible stories from the
jungle journeys to the early days of publishing, to places
that many people won't even have heard of. So there's
a lot of grant for us to cover today. So
if listeners have questions, by the way, you are welcome
to ask them on the WhatsApp line O seven two
five six seven one five six seven or to call
in on two one four four six five six seven. Hell,
(01:30):
we take us back to that first book in nineteen
seventy four. I don't even know if book is the
right word. I believed it was a hand stapled guide book.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Is that true it was?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I mean people called it a pamphlet, which we thought
was very rude because we thought it was a proper book.
But we we wrote it because we've been trekking in
uh well, backpacking in Peru and Bolivia, and no one
else was knew where to go. There was no information then.
And it was really prompted because we found this trail,
(02:02):
this faint trail from near Cusco to machu Picchu which
is now the Inca Trail and very famous, and we
walked it and people we met said, you really must
describe this in print, and so we wrote this little
book we described, I think it was five different tracks,
(02:22):
and we wrote it on a river barge going down
at Trevitary of the Amazon. And George, my husband is dyslexic,
my ben husband, and so he sent it to his
mother to retype with proper spelling. Actually she didn't do
a particularly good job with ther spelling and pretty bad
spelling mistakes. But it's sold because and actually as she
(02:45):
it was stabled, and that she had it printed in
Boston because George's Americans. She lived in Boston, and people
wanted more. So it started the publishing company Amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So, I mean, obviously there was a demand for the
product that you spotted, and your whole life trajectory got
changed in that moment because Hillary, I know you were
an eager traveler and an enthusiastic traveler, but I think
somebody told me you were going to be an occupational
therapist or something like that.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Initially I was.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
That's what took me to South Africa to Cape Town
in nineteen seventy four because I needed to work, you know,
I needed a job, and I worked at a hospital
called CONRADI that dealt with spinal cord gentry and it
was honestly, I can say, truthly the most rewarding job
I've ever had an occupational therapy. It was absolutely terrific.
(03:37):
And so I was a year and a half in
Cape Town, which obviously was very different. You know, that
was the height of aparthe eight, but I must say
we absolutely loved it.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So there's a little bit of the snippet of the
story that has a South African connection to it. It'll
be one thing to go from having one successful to
a guide based on the trick that you've done, but
quite another to build the travel publishing empire that followed
and the string of guidebooks that have helped people on
just about every continent ever since. Did it sort of
happen organically? Did you say, well, the first one worked,
(04:11):
let's go somewhere else and try it again, or did
you realize early on that this was something you were
going to expand into a major organization and a sort
of a planet spreading span of books. Well, certainly not
the latter. Everything happened accidentally. We did know we'd do
a second book. The first one was about hiking in
South America, so we're very keen to do a similar one.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
On Africa. After our stay in Cape Town, we traveled
from Cape Town Takaro over land with quite a few zigzags,
always looking for new hiking routes and new places to
walk that obviously also seeing what we could, you know,
a wonderful wildlife and just everything about Africa in those days.
(04:56):
And it was only we then did another very simple
book and actually we couldn't We never had any money,
so we couldn't afford to print the books because it's
very expensive printing books, and so George went to work
for a printer. He was a very bad employee, I
seem to think, I seem to remember him being ending
(05:18):
up on the pavement with several boxes of books. Yeah,
but he was paid in books, not money. So we
got our backpack of Africa and the second edition of
Peru and Bolivia.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Did you stick with the approach of very simple travel,
of doing a lot on foot, of backpacking and hiking
and sort of do it to yourself travel or over
the years, did you start allowing yourselves a little bit
more luxury as you established the business and the brand
grew luxury?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
No, never, Oka, we did.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
We stuck to our guns. I mean not very profitable
guns of always doing hiking guides. So after after Africa,
we did North America and then all the rest of
not all the rest of South America, but four other
South American guides, and then we started a branch out.
(06:11):
We realized that actually, you know, if we wanted to
make a living, it had to be more general guides.
And also we started recruiting other writers and commissioning other writers,
and just gradually it's expanded. We've now got more than
two hundred books on the oil list, and obviously I'm
now semi retard. I'm still involved, but semi retard.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I bet there are listeners who have those books on
their shelves, and I would love to hear from anybody
who has traveled with a Brack travel guide. Which one
did you take with you where? And what was invaluable
about the advice contained in that book that changed the
way you experienced that holiday or expedition. If you would
like to share with us, please do you send a
WhatsApp to seven two five six seven one five six
(06:56):
seven Hilary. I don't want to preempt the book because
listeners was going by copy for themselves to read all
the spectacular adventures contained therein. But let's just share one
or two anecdotes with the audience. I mean, are there
any adventures or particular trips that either went wrong in
some way or which completely surprised you that turned out
to be something you really weren't expecting them to be
(07:17):
When you look back on all the places you've been to.
I mean, I don't know if you keep account on
the number of countries visited or anything like that, but
which ones stand out for the unexpected or the strange
things that happened on the way.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Well, an awful lot went wrong just traveling through Africa
in the seventies. It was a very different continent. We
were arrested three times, which was irritating, and that two
I think the stories are a bit too long to
tell here, but we made the mistake of trying to
go to a botanical garden in n Tebbe in Uganda
(07:51):
in nineteen seventy six, and older listeners will remember the
Untee Ra. Yes, we were arrested, were held. It was
very frightening. Actually we were held under machine gun guard
for three hours and I really did wonder what was
going to happen to us. But the chap was supposed
(08:12):
to come and interview us had run out of petrol,
and so the guard said, William must turn yourselves into
the police station. This is how you walk to it,
and they'll interview you. But we didn't. We went back
to our hotel and we packed up very quickly, and
then we left the country enough.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I mean, I can't ask you to name a favorite destination,
because I'm sure that would be like asking somebody to
choose between their favorite children. But of all the places
that you have been, are there a couple that you
have wanted to go back to multiple times because either
you felt you didn't have a chance to explore everything
theyre offered, or because they just captured your heart in somewhere.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
The one that's really captured my heart is Madagascar. And
I did the first Guide to Madoascar it's now in
it's thirteenth edition, and I led tours to Madagascar for
several years and I do absolutely love it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's the most gorgeous country. It's one of my favorite
sister destinations as well, and take a little bit of it,
but it was extraordinary. Just for anybody who's come into
this conversation midway, Hillary Bratt with me, who is the
co founder of the Brat Travel Guides. And if you
have traveled in the last how many years is it
more than fifty years, you might well have taken along
(09:23):
one of their guides to help you in that process.
And I do hope we'll hear from anybody who has
done so about where they went and what they saw.
In terms of general travel advice, I mean, everybody has
their own way of doing it, and their own degree
of luxury that they look for and the kind of destination.
Some people like the city scape, some like to be
(09:44):
in the bush away from it all. But are there
common threads in terms of things that you feel make
travel easier. Are there sort of golden rules in terms
of how you pack and what you take or what
you don't take with you?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Hillary that over the years you have refined to a
fine art. Not really.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I always say, you know, if you're traveling, if you're backpack,
if you're traveling adventurously, the most useful thing is a
strong legal and dental floss, because you can mend anything
from the tent to your boots to clothes may not
look very beautiful. I think just travel with an open mind.
You know, try not to compare it with your own culture,
(10:25):
with your own way of life, and be open minded.
And you know, there's no point in traveling unless you're
open minded, because otherwise you're looking for home in another
country and that's not what's the point.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, South Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You also trying not to think about the exchange rate
too much while you're out there on the brand.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I'll add to that.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Any destinations you think are completely underrated that really people
should go and visit. I mean, you've already mentioned Madagascar,
but are there others that almost hesitate to say this
because sometimes those lovely undiscovered places are beautiful because they're undiscovered.
But are there any that you would flag that you
really think should have become a bigger travel destination than
they have.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I think it's more the less known places in well
known countries. I mean, you know, Peru, for instance, which
I've been back many, many times, something like twenty five
times as a tour leader. Everyone goes to Costco and
natchal Fezu. Very few people go to the north of Peru,
which is actually astoning with some wonderful pre and ca
(11:26):
ruins quae Lap, fantastic wildlife and my person now is
wildlife because it's so chancey. And I told you earlier,
I hope that I'm seeing pangolins on this trip in
the Kalaharis.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You will be so lucky if you do, because they
are incredibly elusive.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But I really really wish for you that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
You might hillary And if you do, it'll be just
an enormous privilege because they are so rare to see.
In all of my years of travel, I've never ever
seen one. I was talking about this at a panglin
conservation roundtable just last week, and it's a good segue
into the conversation about responsible travel because one of the
things we were talking about that evening was how do
(12:06):
you manage the visitor imprint on the place that they
are visiting, And when it comes to panglism Langulan tourism,
it's about very careful management of how you engage the
distance you keep discouraging people wanted to pick up the
panglins and take selfies with them is apparently a big problem.
I mean, have you come across places or examples, let's say,
(12:28):
either way, places that have handled the idea of responsible
visitor experiences particularly well or particularly badly for that matter.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
No, that's a very good question. I think that the
key thing in responsible travel is vulnerable people, vulnerable tribal
groups or whatever, are much more in danger of irresponsible
tourism than most wildlife because wildlife, and this is a
(12:58):
very general statement, in national parks or reserves tends to
become used to used to tourists, used to visitors, whereas
people are so vulnerable to tourists will meaning tourists giving
them presents, you know, giving them money, giving them sweets
or whatever. But the point about wildlife is everyone now
(13:21):
is so pushy in the way they want to see wildlife.
And I subscribe to Africa Geographic, which is a wonderful publication,
and they did a piece recently about the Masai Maara
migration with the wilderby's and how cars are blocking the
river there, you know, so that the wilder bees can't
(13:42):
cross and their usual crossing place, and it's irresponsible tour
operators perhaps and guides who are letting tourists do that,
and sometimes the tourists will do a bigger tip. You know.
Walthy tourism is now much more happening, much more than
it was in my.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Sure yeah, I mean it's a huge I know, the
management of whale watching tourism in South Africa, for example,
there's something that's got to be monitored so carefully and
managed so careful. We have strict rules in place about
the distance that is meant to be kept, and yet
how often have I seen those photographs of Look, there
was a whale right next to our boat. I'm thinking
that's not anywhere near the one hundred meters it was
meant to be, for example. So I take your point.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Hillary.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Michelle has written in to say I used Hillary's book
on Madagascar, loved the country, and the book is full
of hilarious notes from leeches to local taxis. You could
write a book about the local taxis in Madagascar. Just
them alone, Michelle would be enough to fill a book.
I can take your point on that one, So thank
you for that. What advice would you give Hillary to
somebody who's always dreamt of packing a bag and heading
(14:45):
off to do something exciting, but it's just.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Never found the courage to do it. Do you think
it's ever too late to start?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
No, it is a just do it. We published an
anthology Unfortunate. It's a to print though but it might
be available second hand. In fact, I think it is
called Rome Alone, and it was written specifically for people
who've been nervous about traveling on their own, but maybe
they're widowed or they split up with their partner or
(15:13):
whatever reason. And it's different stories of different travelers who've
been nervous. You know, sat in the ladies in Heathrow
just crying with nerves and then had an absolutely fabulous trip.
And one of the best quotes from there that someone
told me was feel the fear and do it anyway.
And I think that's perfect because it is. You know,
(15:36):
we're all nervous traveling, you know. I'm certainly still never
especially airports, you know, and what stupid thing will I do?
And will I lose my passport? But on the whole
it's always more exciting than better than you could ever imagine.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I love that, feel the fear and do it anyway.
And I have quoted this before, but one of the
fastest growing categories of tourism globally is solo female travelers,
right it is, which is so exciting. I've done it
a couple of times myself. I'm planning my next solo
trip and as much as I love traveling with my
husband and my kids, there is something very very special
(16:12):
about doing it alone. And as you say, finding the
courage to just go out there and do it just
adds another dimension to the trip. I highly highly recommended.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Also, I think just just butting in. We always think
we're more vulnerable and more riskless women. I don't think
that's true, because sometimes you can play the vulnerability card.
And you know that, I was traveling alone in Colombia
on quite a lot of Latin America, and people wanted
to look after me, you know, and they were lovely people.
(16:42):
I met the most terrific people who just, oh no,
you know, you must come and stay with me. Oh no,
it's much to risk of you to find a hotel
on your own. So you can either be I can
be very tough and look after myself, or I can
be a little bit vulnerable if it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
If it sits the right thing, and I bet in
cases like that, as you say, you're opening yourself to
another layer of experience when you let other people in
in that way. Let's talk a little bit about that,
about the experience of the ordinary person in a place
that you go to visit, because absolutely, you can go
and stay in a hotel and do a guided tour
and see the sights of a place. But often it
(17:22):
is the small It's the cup of coffee you share
with somebody in a cafe, or the person that you
meet who changes the experience and just add another layer
to that travel.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
How much of your.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Enjoyment of travel over the years hillary has been about
the people you've engaged with versus the places that you
have been to.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It's been very much the people. I'm quite naturally shy,
and actually George was such an extra art. We traveled
beautifully together because he would make the friends. You know,
I would value these new friends enormously, but I held
back a little with the social engagement, whereas he always
reached out. And I mean the book is full of
(17:59):
an of just you know, wonderful, surprising people that we met.
And yeah, you know there's one thing and I described
in the book, but one meeting which is was just
so special because we were having a really horrible trip
through the night in I can't even remember. I think
(18:20):
it was what's now Congo was then Zaire, and the
driver was really horrid. He wanted to put us off
in the middle of a wilderness, so we paid more money,
you know, all the usual thing. And so we were
having a really unpleasant trip and we were very cold
in the back of a pickup truck. And then he
stopped for a long time, but half an hour outside
(18:42):
a house. We're sure he was seeing his girlfriend. But
I remember, and I described in the book, I saw
him silhouetted in the doorway carrying two mugs and they
were full of hot milk that he handed the George
and me a and that's you know, it makes me
choke up just thinking of it, because he'd been so
unpleasant and it was his It's all all right, we're friends.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And those are the moments you remember for the rest
of your life, even if you can't necessarily remember which
which temple you visited or sight you saw, it's those
moments of contact. Having said that, one of our listeners
would like to know, is there anyway you would never
go again, that you had such a terrible experience you've
had never to go back?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, I I three years ago. I would have said Egypt,
because it was right at the end of our trip,
and it was the Egyptians were very lustful, let's say,
and we were traveling third class trains and they'd literally
come pouring in through the windows, through the doors and
try and grab any part of me. It was really unpleasant,
(19:44):
and we'd almost run out of money by then. We've
been traveling for eleven months, and so I hated the Egyptians.
Actually I loved Egypt. I loved the ancient Egypt. But
I went back to go to the island of Socotra,
which is absolutely, you know, my number one super place
to go, which we can talk about a minute, and
(20:07):
stayed in Caro. Absolutely love the Egyptians, love Caro, loved everything.
But it it's so good getting older. You know, this
is something I keep stressing. You know, you're not a
target for all the sexual advances, and that does make
things so much easier.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Sartah writ again to say, my daughter traveled on her
own to South America and North America when she was
just eighteen. It was me who was nervous rather than her.
Sandra just saying, what a lovely guest you have today
and enjoying the conversation with you, Hillary, Sandra, thank you
for that. And I hope your daughter keeps on traveling
and enjoying the adventure. Okay, so just before we must
wrap up, Hillary, that island or for Egypt I'd never
(20:46):
heard of. Please tell us where to add to our
travel bucket list.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Just before we wrap up, in case we don't fit
it in, I am giving a talk at at Exclusive
Books Cavendish at five point thirty today today. So I
want all the people who are enjoying the talking now
come come to that talk.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Please please do because then okay, well we will leave
it to you to go into detail about the island.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
It was it?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sicatra, you Sicatra, You'll have to go to Cavendish tonight
to find out, or to go and get hold of
a copy of Hillary's autobiography called Taking the Risk My
Adventures in Travel and publishing. Well from all of the
travelers that you have helped to guide through the experience,
to get them there safely, to make sure they didn't
miss all the amazing spaces and people. I think that's
(21:28):
fifty years worth of thank yous to you. But my
last question, which we must wrap up our Hillary, is
way too Next you're still traveling.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Do you have the next destination already in sight?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Not? Really? You know, seeing pangolins and it is a
rescue operation. So that's why I'm optimistic. That has been
my before I die thing. It's the only thing on
my bucket list. Who knows, you know, Soicotra I didn't
expect to go to, and then I suddenly thought, must
do that before I die. So you know, as long
as I don't die too soon, I probably will go
(21:58):
to other places.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And please keep on telling the rest of us about
them once you've done the initial expiration for us, Hillary Brite,
a real pleasure to have.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
You on the show today.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Thanks for joining us, and may you continue to wander
the world with joy and a sense of adventure.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It's been a real delight chatting to you on the show.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Thank you very much. Pepper
You're with Cape Talk. Listen is Papa Hutton on lunch.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Let's go and do some armchair travel and in wonder
the world today. We are really privileged to have an
absolute legend of travel publishing with us in studio, Hillary Brutt.
If you ever found yourself somewhere off the beaten path
and in the days before the internet particularly reached for
a guide book to help you, the chances are it
might have been one of Hillary's that you used, because
(00:29):
just over fifty years ago she and her then husband
George wrote their first guide book, A Little Typewritten Guide
to Trekking in Peru and Bolivia, And all these years later,
Bratt travel guides are known around the world. It is,
in fact the biggest independently owned travel publishing outfit in
the UK and US in particular. And Hillary has had
(00:50):
an extraordinary life that has taken her to every nook
and cranny of this planet. Just about She's just released
her own autobiography called Taking the Risk My Adventures in
Travel and Publishing, and she is he with us in
studio today. What a privilege, and welcome to Cape Talk.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you very much, Peppa.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Obviously, the book is full of incredible stories from the
jungle journeys to the early days of publishing, to places
that many people won't even have heard of. So there's
a lot of grant for us to cover today. So
if listeners have questions, by the way, you are welcome
to ask them on the WhatsApp line O seven two
five six seven one five six seven or to call
in on two one four four six five six seven. Hell,
(01:30):
we take us back to that first book in nineteen
seventy four. I don't even know if book is the
right word. I believed it was a hand stapled guide book.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Is that true it was?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I mean people called it a pamphlet, which we thought
was very rude because we thought it was a proper book.
But we we wrote it because we've been trekking in
uh well, backpacking in Peru and Bolivia, and no one
else was knew where to go. There was no information then.
And it was really prompted because we found this trail,
(02:02):
this faint trail from near Cusco to machu Picchu which
is now the Inca Trail and very famous, and we
walked it and people we met said, you really must
describe this in print, and so we wrote this little
book we described, I think it was five different tracks,
(02:22):
and we wrote it on a river barge going down
at Trevitary of the Amazon. And George, my husband is dyslexic,
my ben husband, and so he sent it to his
mother to retype with proper spelling. Actually she didn't do
a particularly good job with ther spelling and pretty bad
spelling mistakes. But it's sold because and actually as she
(02:45):
it was stabled, and that she had it printed in
Boston because George's Americans. She lived in Boston, and people
wanted more. So it started the publishing company Amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So, I mean, obviously there was a demand for the
product that you spotted, and your whole life trajectory got
changed in that moment because Hillary, I know you were
an eager traveler and an enthusiastic traveler, but I think
somebody told me you were going to be an occupational
therapist or something like that.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Initially I was.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
That's what took me to South Africa to Cape Town
in nineteen seventy four because I needed to work, you know,
I needed a job, and I worked at a hospital
called CONRADI that dealt with spinal cord gentry and it
was honestly, I can say, truthly the most rewarding job
I've ever had an occupational therapy. It was absolutely terrific.
(03:37):
And so I was a year and a half in
Cape Town, which obviously was very different. You know, that
was the height of aparthe eight, but I must say
we absolutely loved it.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So there's a little bit of the snippet of the
story that has a South African connection to it. It'll
be one thing to go from having one successful to
a guide based on the trick that you've done, but
quite another to build the travel publishing empire that followed
and the string of guidebooks that have helped people on
just about every continent ever since. Did it sort of
happen organically? Did you say, well, the first one worked,
(04:11):
let's go somewhere else and try it again, or did
you realize early on that this was something you were
going to expand into a major organization and a sort
of a planet spreading span of books. Well, certainly not
the latter. Everything happened accidentally. We did know we'd do
a second book. The first one was about hiking in
South America, so we're very keen to do a similar one.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
On Africa. After our stay in Cape Town, we traveled
from Cape Town Takaro over land with quite a few zigzags,
always looking for new hiking routes and new places to
walk that obviously also seeing what we could, you know,
a wonderful wildlife and just everything about Africa in those days.
(04:56):
And it was only we then did another very simple
book and actually we couldn't We never had any money,
so we couldn't afford to print the books because it's
very expensive printing books, and so George went to work
for a printer. He was a very bad employee, I
seem to think, I seem to remember him being ending
(05:18):
up on the pavement with several boxes of books. Yeah,
but he was paid in books, not money. So we
got our backpack of Africa and the second edition of
Peru and Bolivia.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Did you stick with the approach of very simple travel,
of doing a lot on foot, of backpacking and hiking
and sort of do it to yourself travel or over
the years, did you start allowing yourselves a little bit
more luxury as you established the business and the brand
grew luxury?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
No, never, Oka, we did.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
We stuck to our guns. I mean not very profitable
guns of always doing hiking guides. So after after Africa,
we did North America and then all the rest of
not all the rest of South America, but four other
South American guides, and then we started a branch out.
(06:11):
We realized that actually, you know, if we wanted to
make a living, it had to be more general guides.
And also we started recruiting other writers and commissioning other writers,
and just gradually it's expanded. We've now got more than
two hundred books on the oil list, and obviously I'm
now semi retard. I'm still involved, but semi retard.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I bet there are listeners who have those books on
their shelves, and I would love to hear from anybody
who has traveled with a Brack travel guide. Which one
did you take with you where? And what was invaluable
about the advice contained in that book that changed the
way you experienced that holiday or expedition. If you would
like to share with us, please do you send a
WhatsApp to seven two five six seven one five six
(06:56):
seven Hilary. I don't want to preempt the book because
listeners was going by copy for themselves to read all
the spectacular adventures contained therein. But let's just share one
or two anecdotes with the audience. I mean, are there
any adventures or particular trips that either went wrong in
some way or which completely surprised you that turned out
to be something you really weren't expecting them to be
(07:17):
When you look back on all the places you've been to.
I mean, I don't know if you keep account on
the number of countries visited or anything like that, but
which ones stand out for the unexpected or the strange
things that happened on the way.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Well, an awful lot went wrong just traveling through Africa
in the seventies. It was a very different continent. We
were arrested three times, which was irritating, and that two
I think the stories are a bit too long to
tell here, but we made the mistake of trying to
go to a botanical garden in n Tebbe in Uganda
(07:51):
in nineteen seventy six, and older listeners will remember the
Untee Ra. Yes, we were arrested, were held. It was
very frightening. Actually we were held under machine gun guard
for three hours and I really did wonder what was
going to happen to us. But the chap was supposed
(08:12):
to come and interview us had run out of petrol,
and so the guard said, William must turn yourselves into
the police station. This is how you walk to it,
and they'll interview you. But we didn't. We went back
to our hotel and we packed up very quickly, and
then we left the country enough.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I mean, I can't ask you to name a favorite destination,
because I'm sure that would be like asking somebody to
choose between their favorite children. But of all the places
that you have been, are there a couple that you
have wanted to go back to multiple times because either
you felt you didn't have a chance to explore everything
theyre offered, or because they just captured your heart in somewhere.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
The one that's really captured my heart is Madagascar. And
I did the first Guide to Madoascar it's now in
it's thirteenth edition, and I led tours to Madagascar for
several years and I do absolutely love it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's the most gorgeous country. It's one of my favorite
sister destinations as well, and take a little bit of it,
but it was extraordinary. Just for anybody who's come into
this conversation midway, Hillary Bratt with me, who is the
co founder of the Brat Travel Guides. And if you
have traveled in the last how many years is it
more than fifty years, you might well have taken along
(09:23):
one of their guides to help you in that process.
And I do hope we'll hear from anybody who has
done so about where they went and what they saw.
In terms of general travel advice, I mean, everybody has
their own way of doing it, and their own degree
of luxury that they look for and the kind of destination.
Some people like the city scape, some like to be
(09:44):
in the bush away from it all. But are there
common threads in terms of things that you feel make
travel easier. Are there sort of golden rules in terms
of how you pack and what you take or what
you don't take with you?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Hillary that over the years you have refined to a
fine art. Not really.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I always say, you know, if you're traveling, if you're backpack,
if you're traveling adventurously, the most useful thing is a
strong legal and dental floss, because you can mend anything
from the tent to your boots to clothes may not
look very beautiful. I think just travel with an open mind.
You know, try not to compare it with your own culture,
(10:25):
with your own way of life, and be open minded.
And you know, there's no point in traveling unless you're
open minded, because otherwise you're looking for home in another
country and that's not what's the point.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, South Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You also trying not to think about the exchange rate
too much while you're out there on the brand.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I'll add to that.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Any destinations you think are completely underrated that really people
should go and visit. I mean, you've already mentioned Madagascar,
but are there others that almost hesitate to say this
because sometimes those lovely undiscovered places are beautiful because they're undiscovered.
But are there any that you would flag that you
really think should have become a bigger travel destination than
they have.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
I think it's more the less known places in well
known countries. I mean, you know, Peru, for instance, which
I've been back many, many times, something like twenty five
times as a tour leader. Everyone goes to Costco and
natchal Fezu. Very few people go to the north of Peru,
which is actually astoning with some wonderful pre and ca
(11:26):
ruins quae Lap, fantastic wildlife and my person now is
wildlife because it's so chancey. And I told you earlier,
I hope that I'm seeing pangolins on this trip in
the Kalaharis.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You will be so lucky if you do, because they
are incredibly elusive.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But I really really wish for you that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
You might hillary And if you do, it'll be just
an enormous privilege because they are so rare to see.
In all of my years of travel, I've never ever
seen one. I was talking about this at a panglin
conservation roundtable just last week, and it's a good segue
into the conversation about responsible travel because one of the
things we were talking about that evening was how do
(12:06):
you manage the visitor imprint on the place that they
are visiting, And when it comes to panglism Langulan tourism,
it's about very careful management of how you engage the
distance you keep discouraging people wanted to pick up the
panglins and take selfies with them is apparently a big problem.
I mean, have you come across places or examples, let's say,
(12:28):
either way, places that have handled the idea of responsible
visitor experiences particularly well or particularly badly for that matter.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
No, that's a very good question. I think that the
key thing in responsible travel is vulnerable people, vulnerable tribal
groups or whatever, are much more in danger of irresponsible
tourism than most wildlife because wildlife, and this is a
(12:58):
very general statement, in national parks or reserves tends to
become used to used to tourists, used to visitors, whereas
people are so vulnerable to tourists will meaning tourists giving
them presents, you know, giving them money, giving them sweets
or whatever. But the point about wildlife is everyone now
(13:21):
is so pushy in the way they want to see wildlife.
And I subscribe to Africa Geographic, which is a wonderful publication,
and they did a piece recently about the Masai Maara
migration with the wilderby's and how cars are blocking the
river there, you know, so that the wilder bees can't
(13:42):
cross and their usual crossing place, and it's irresponsible tour
operators perhaps and guides who are letting tourists do that,
and sometimes the tourists will do a bigger tip. You know.
Walthy tourism is now much more happening, much more than
it was in my.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Sure yeah, I mean it's a huge I know, the
management of whale watching tourism in South Africa, for example,
there's something that's got to be monitored so carefully and
managed so careful. We have strict rules in place about
the distance that is meant to be kept, and yet
how often have I seen those photographs of Look, there
was a whale right next to our boat. I'm thinking
that's not anywhere near the one hundred meters it was
meant to be, for example. So I take your point.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Hillary.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Michelle has written in to say I used Hillary's book
on Madagascar, loved the country, and the book is full
of hilarious notes from leeches to local taxis. You could
write a book about the local taxis in Madagascar. Just
them alone, Michelle would be enough to fill a book.
I can take your point on that one, So thank
you for that. What advice would you give Hillary to
somebody who's always dreamt of packing a bag and heading
(14:45):
off to do something exciting, but it's just.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Never found the courage to do it. Do you think
it's ever too late to start?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
No, it is a just do it. We published an
anthology Unfortunate. It's a to print though but it might
be available second hand. In fact, I think it is
called Rome Alone, and it was written specifically for people
who've been nervous about traveling on their own, but maybe
they're widowed or they split up with their partner or
(15:13):
whatever reason. And it's different stories of different travelers who've
been nervous. You know, sat in the ladies in Heathrow
just crying with nerves and then had an absolutely fabulous trip.
And one of the best quotes from there that someone
told me was feel the fear and do it anyway.
And I think that's perfect because it is. You know,
(15:36):
we're all nervous traveling, you know. I'm certainly still never
especially airports, you know, and what stupid thing will I do?
And will I lose my passport? But on the whole
it's always more exciting than better than you could ever imagine.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I love that, feel the fear and do it anyway.
And I have quoted this before, but one of the
fastest growing categories of tourism globally is solo female travelers,
right it is, which is so exciting. I've done it
a couple of times myself. I'm planning my next solo
trip and as much as I love traveling with my
husband and my kids, there is something very very special
(16:12):
about doing it alone. And as you say, finding the
courage to just go out there and do it just
adds another dimension to the trip. I highly highly recommended.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Also, I think just just butting in. We always think
we're more vulnerable and more riskless women. I don't think
that's true, because sometimes you can play the vulnerability card.
And you know that, I was traveling alone in Colombia
on quite a lot of Latin America, and people wanted
to look after me, you know, and they were lovely people.
(16:42):
I met the most terrific people who just, oh no,
you know, you must come and stay with me. Oh no,
it's much to risk of you to find a hotel
on your own. So you can either be I can
be very tough and look after myself, or I can
be a little bit vulnerable if it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
If it sits the right thing, and I bet in
cases like that, as you say, you're opening yourself to
another layer of experience when you let other people in
in that way. Let's talk a little bit about that,
about the experience of the ordinary person in a place
that you go to visit, because absolutely, you can go
and stay in a hotel and do a guided tour
and see the sights of a place. But often it
(17:22):
is the small It's the cup of coffee you share
with somebody in a cafe, or the person that you
meet who changes the experience and just add another layer
to that travel.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
How much of your.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Enjoyment of travel over the years hillary has been about
the people you've engaged with versus the places that you
have been to.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It's been very much the people. I'm quite naturally shy,
and actually George was such an extra art. We traveled
beautifully together because he would make the friends. You know,
I would value these new friends enormously, but I held
back a little with the social engagement, whereas he always
reached out. And I mean the book is full of
(17:59):
an of just you know, wonderful, surprising people that we met.
And yeah, you know there's one thing and I described
in the book, but one meeting which is was just
so special because we were having a really horrible trip
through the night in I can't even remember. I think
(18:20):
it was what's now Congo was then Zaire, and the
driver was really horrid. He wanted to put us off
in the middle of a wilderness, so we paid more money,
you know, all the usual thing. And so we were
having a really unpleasant trip and we were very cold
in the back of a pickup truck. And then he
stopped for a long time, but half an hour outside
(18:42):
a house. We're sure he was seeing his girlfriend. But
I remember, and I described in the book, I saw
him silhouetted in the doorway carrying two mugs and they
were full of hot milk that he handed the George
and me a and that's you know, it makes me
choke up just thinking of it, because he'd been so
unpleasant and it was his It's all all right, we're friends.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And those are the moments you remember for the rest
of your life, even if you can't necessarily remember which
which temple you visited or sight you saw, it's those
moments of contact. Having said that, one of our listeners
would like to know, is there anyway you would never
go again, that you had such a terrible experience you've
had never to go back?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, I I three years ago. I would have said Egypt,
because it was right at the end of our trip,
and it was the Egyptians were very lustful, let's say,
and we were traveling third class trains and they'd literally
come pouring in through the windows, through the doors and
try and grab any part of me. It was really unpleasant,
(19:44):
and we'd almost run out of money by then. We've
been traveling for eleven months, and so I hated the Egyptians.
Actually I loved Egypt. I loved the ancient Egypt. But
I went back to go to the island of Socotra,
which is absolutely, you know, my number one super place
to go, which we can talk about a minute, and
(20:07):
stayed in Caro. Absolutely love the Egyptians, love Caro, loved everything.
But it it's so good getting older. You know, this
is something I keep stressing. You know, you're not a
target for all the sexual advances, and that does make
things so much easier.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Sartah writ again to say, my daughter traveled on her
own to South America and North America when she was
just eighteen. It was me who was nervous rather than her.
Sandra just saying, what a lovely guest you have today
and enjoying the conversation with you, Hillary, Sandra, thank you
for that. And I hope your daughter keeps on traveling
and enjoying the adventure. Okay, so just before we must
wrap up, Hillary, that island or for Egypt I'd never
(20:46):
heard of. Please tell us where to add to our
travel bucket list.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Just before we wrap up, in case we don't fit
it in, I am giving a talk at at Exclusive
Books Cavendish at five point thirty today today. So I
want all the people who are enjoying the talking now
come come to that talk.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Please please do because then okay, well we will leave
it to you to go into detail about the island.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
It was it?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sicatra, you Sicatra, You'll have to go to Cavendish tonight
to find out, or to go and get hold of
a copy of Hillary's autobiography called Taking the Risk My
Adventures in Travel and publishing. Well from all of the
travelers that you have helped to guide through the experience,
to get them there safely, to make sure they didn't
miss all the amazing spaces and people. I think that's
(21:28):
fifty years worth of thank yous to you. But my
last question, which we must wrap up our Hillary, is
way too Next you're still traveling.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Do you have the next destination already in sight?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Not? Really? You know, seeing pangolins and it is a
rescue operation. So that's why I'm optimistic. That has been
my before I die thing. It's the only thing on
my bucket list. Who knows, you know, Soicotra I didn't
expect to go to, and then I suddenly thought, must
do that before I die. So you know, as long
as I don't die too soon, I probably will go
(21:58):
to other places.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And please keep on telling the rest of us about
them once you've done the initial expiration for us, Hillary Brite,
a real pleasure to have.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
You on the show today.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Thanks for joining us, and may you continue to wander
the world with joy and a sense of adventure.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
It's been a real delight chatting to you on the show.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Thank you very much. Pepper
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