January 22, 2025 • 46 mins
Do you love the enemies-to-lovers trope as much as I do? Author Ruby Rana joined us to share her unique take on this beloved romance trope, diving into the emotional depth and nuanced character dynamics that make it so captivating.
Ruby Rana is an elder millennial who writes spicy, funny, and heartfelt romance about sassy brown girls. She excels in sending messages where autocorrect has gone terribly wrong. When she's not battling typos, you can find her explaining Midwestern slang to her East Coast-raised husband, being used as a jungle gym by her young children, or experimenting in the kitchen.
In this episode, we're discussing:
- How Ruby Rana's debut novel "Snapshot" expertly blends the enemies-to-lovers trope with a hockey romance backdrop, creating a story of childhood friends turned adversaries.
- The importance of portraying realistic emotional scars and growth, highlighting how past traumas can shape a character's present-day actions and perceptions.
- The value of supportive female friendships in Ruby’s books, providing a safe space for her characters to be their authentic selves.
- Insights on how the enemies-to-lovers trope allows for meaningful character development, as the characters learn to love each other despite their differences.
- The athleticism and camaraderie within the world of professional hockey, which serves as an engaging setting for Rana's stories.
Feeling inspired to dive into Ruby Rana's unique take on the enemies-to-lovers trope? Discover her novels and connect with the author on social media to continue the conversation. Romance readers won't want to miss this insightful discussion!
CONNECT WITH RUBY RANA:
BOOKS/AUTHORS MENTIONED:
Snap Shot (Amazon)
Butterfly Effect (Amazon)
Played by Naima Simone (Amazon)
Running list of books mentioned (Doc)
Thank you for listening to the We Read Smut Podcast! If you enjoyed this episode, take a screenshot of the episode to post in your stories and tag @WeReadSmut. Don’t forget to follow, rate, and review the podcast.
Connect with Alesia:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alesia Galati (00:00):
Is it just me, or is there something so incredibly
(00:02):
satisfying about watching twopeople who absolutely cannot
stand each other fall head overheels in love? Today, we're
dissecting enemies to lovers andits glorious appeal with
incredible author, Ruby Rana.
Listener, discretion is advised.
This podcast contains maturecontent intended for adult
(00:25):
audiences only. Ruby, I am soexcited to dive into all things
enemies to lovers with you. Butbefore we get into that, I want
to remind our listeners thatenemies to lovers are different
from rivals to lovers. Rivals tolovers, I like to think of
(00:46):
almost as like academic rivalsto lovers, or career rivals to
lovers, where you're maybe inthe same corporate space or the
same academic space, and you'recompeting for similar titles,
similar awards or recognition.
Yeah, and you kind of hate theother person because they're
going after the same things youare. Maybe you've won some
they've won some, as you kind ofhate their guts, but at the same
(01:09):
time, there's a bit of angstthat can happen in there, and
eventually some love maybe. Sothat is different, but enemies
to lovers. You know, a lot ofpeople are like, oh, people say
enemies to lovers, but it's notreally enemies. But I feel like
you really put the enemies andenemies to lovers. So let's dive
(01:32):
into your first book, your debutsnapshot, kind of give us a
little synopsis of that and howthe enemies lovers trope plays
into that.
Ruby Rana (01:45):
Sure. First of all, thank you for having me. I'm so
excited to be here. And yeah, sosnapshot is about Landon
Roddick. He's a star hockeyplayer, and he gets caught in a
postseason scandal. They're ontheir way to the Stanley Cup,
and photo releases of him in aposition against his condo with
(02:12):
a previous staffer and all hellkind of breaks loose. Things go
viral. The person involved gets,you know, on a mic and says all
this stuff, and it really messeswith his head, and Stanley Cup
fades away. They don't make itto the championship. The
management hires a lawyer tojust recover his reputation,
(02:37):
because he's kind of the goldenboy. He has never done anything
like this. He's never beeninvolved in anything like this.
Like this. He's not like the badboy. And so they hire one of the
best libel lawyers in thecountry, in Canada, and when
they finally meet, it so happensthat it's his childhood friend
who they used to play hockeytogether as kids, and for some
(03:00):
reason, she has held a grudge,and she just hates him. He has
no idea why he has fondmemories, but they navigate
through that. He tries to figureout why she's acting a certain
way towards him, and tries torekindle their friendship, gets
to the root of it, and thenfinds out a bunch of personal
(03:23):
things about her, and realizesthat he just wants to keep up
with it, that he has thischildhood crush that is like
kind of coming true now that hecould actually do something
about and they come to a friendswith benefits agreement, And she
has rules because her boundarieshave been crossed before and
(03:44):
their lawyer clients, so it'sstrictly forbidden. So yeah, and
it's just kind of how they fightwith their feelings, especially
the lawyer Indira deve she, she,like, knows in her heart what
her feelings are, but she fightsthem through so many layers
because she believes thatthere's nothing that could make
(04:06):
her fall again for someone likehim. So I think there's a lot of
push and pull in that. But Ihave a problem with just writing
men who are down so bad. Youknow? I think that's like the
line of like enemies to lovers.
People love that switch whenit's like true hate towards the
other person. But I think thatwhat happens with me is because
(04:27):
I don't know, I just don't likethe idea of hating a woman. I
think he's just he likes her. Hewants to be liked by her, as
like a person, as a friend, as aromantic learner, but he also
doesn't want to be disrespected.
He also doesn't want to beaccused of things he hasn't
(04:48):
done. Like he can handle thebickering. He can handle the
banter. He will shoot offremarks just as good as she
does. But I think he's stillinside. He's just down so bad.
Yeah, and for her, it's justlike a hate to love thing that I
hate, that I like someone likehim, I hate that I still have
this childhood crush that wasnipped too early, and we, like
(05:11):
never got that chance. And fear,like fear of rejection, fear of
so many things that is from herpast that she's just afraid that
it'll happen again. So I thinkthose are all the layers and
then just figuring out theirboundaries and figuring out who
they are to each other, fromlawyer client who don't really
(05:31):
like each other to friends whohave like an understanding, who
have boundaries, and seeingthose boundaries pushed again
and again. And both peopleagreeing to those, both people
agreeing to that consent of,okay, let's new rule or Nix that
rule. Forget about that rule.
Like the rule doesn't work forus anymore. Let's just keep
going to finally admitting whattheir actual feelings are and
(05:52):
then blossoming from it. Soyeah, that's a long summary,
but, yeah, it's a long book,guys, it is,
Alesia Galati (06:01):
but I think it's so good. And what I love about
your enemies to lovers is thatit was actually a practical
reason why someone would reallyhate someone else, without
spoiling it, like overhearingsomething or having those, like,
very middle school or, like,early teen everything is the
(06:27):
biggest deal in the world. Yeah,I try to think about that,
especially as a mom, thinkingabout, like, how my kids react
to things. They're 10 and seven,and I'm like, oh my god, it's
not that big of a deal. Like youhave your whole life ahead of
you. But then I have toremember, how did I feel when I
was that age when, you know, Ididn't get to go do the thing
that I really was lookingforward to, or I was
(06:49):
disappointed. And so have toremember, Oh no, this is
actually the biggest moment oftheir life right now, and how I
react has an impact. But thenthinking about your characters
and what they went through atthat time, a very pivotal moment
emotionally. And there were alot of additional things right,
without getting too manyspoilers away, that were
(07:11):
impacting the way they feltabout themselves, the way they
were living up to, like peerpressure, and so to have that
mixed like that, and then to seeeach other years later, and her
being like, Man, fuck you. I donot like I think was such a I
(07:32):
don't want to say relief, butthe way that you approached it
was such a relief, because Ifeel like a lot of authors
almost take the over the top.
This doesn't make sense enemiesto lovers, almost for like the
effect of it. For example, I wasreading a book where the it's
this really rich hockey player.
(07:56):
He's drunk driving. He hits agirl she ends up losing out on
her ballet career. His dad paysher and her mom off a year
later, his hockey career is nowcompletely ruined. So it dark,
hockey, college romance, butopposite sides of the track.
They end up seeing each other.
He knows exactly who she is. Shedoesn't really know who he is,
(08:19):
because she doesn't remember alot of that night. And then,
like, her ballet career wasruined, his hockey career was
ruined. But he blames her forhis absolutely terrible
decision, and the way that heapproaches it is very like, you
ruined my life. Like, okay, man,Baby, what are you doing? And I
feel like that as an examplethat kind of enemies to lovers,
(08:44):
just feels like you're going forsome type, oh my gosh, where it
didn't really feel genuine. Itdidn't feel like they actually
hated each other. It felt likehe was just being an asshole,
which I don't think is enemiesto lovers, but I think a lot of
authors tend to use that as away to make it an enemy's
lovers. And I love that you donot
Ruby Rana (09:08):
well. I mean, every author has their own little
style, and every reader also hastheir own preferences. A lot of
readers, like those kind ofguys, they like to see the arc
of the development from that. Ihonestly, I like it too. I like
seeing the idiot asshole, but Ifeel like, for I don't know why
(09:30):
I do this, but I feel like, forme, the FMCS are the idiot
asshole. You know what I mean.
Like they their anger ismisdirected, their feelings,
while valid, are not alwaysplaced at the right person. It's
maybe at a situation that was inthe past, at another person, but
the person in front of them isright there. So it's let me just
(09:53):
do it, and that's like a veryhuman thing to do, but I feel
like a lot of times. It happensto the men in these stories,
they behave like this. But Ifeel like I just tend to make
the women like this, and maybeit's because I'm like this. I
have done that in the past. Iprobably still do that. You're
annoyed about something, andthen my husband shows up and I
(10:15):
just explode at him where hedoesn't deserve it, or anything
like that, but things from ourpast trauma, people and
relationships that we've had inthe past affect those actions.
And I wanted to play into that,and I had gotten some feedback
on you're a 27 year old woman,how can you just hold on to
something from middle school?
(10:38):
But sometimes like, scars canrun really deep. And then, like,
you forget about things. Youlive your whole life. You go to
high school, you go to college.
For India, she went to lawschool. She's, like, incredibly
successful. But like, obviously,Landon meant something to her,
that friendship meant temptingto her. It was like at a point
in her life where she didn'thave a lot of support in
(10:58):
general, in something that shewanted to do and ultimately gave
up, but like he was that oneperson who she thought she could
trust, and when that trust isbroken, it just leaves a scar,
and then suddenly this person isback in your life, and you have
to be professional with them,and then they're acting like
nothing happened and that theylike you and all this kind of
(11:19):
stuff. Like it toys with theemotions. I know that if I saw
somebody from middle school whodidn't treat me well, now I'd
probably be like, civil andrespectful, like whatever, but I
would still remember the thingsthat they said and did to me and
how they made me feel. So I feellike that's what I tried to
highlight. I don't want it to belike, Oh, they're so immature.
(11:42):
Like that, she hung out. But Ifeel like people think that 27
year olds 30 year olds are acertain way, but we're all
human. Obviously, they're maturein different ways, but I'm also
super immature in other ways. Iknow my humor is immature, but
it's just funny. I mean,sometimes it's just funny, and
(12:03):
what makes me laugh and a 20year old laugh could be the same
thing people in their 20s do actinappropriately, as do women in
their 30s, too. So we're notabout making good decisions all
the time. Here. Could make a lotof mistakes. We have a lot of
flaws. We try to make up for it.
(12:25):
We say sorry and move on. Soyeah, yeah.
Alesia Galati (12:28):
I think, I think it's silly to assume that our
past doesn't have any impact onhow we approach life now. I
mean, even me, I had friendshipsin high school where I was
really good friends withsomeone, and I'm the kind of
person where you're my bestfriend, you're my only best
friend. It's you and me to theend of the world. That's how I
was as a teenager, and just verypossessive of my friendships.
(12:54):
And then so in this onefriendship, my cousin shows up.
He starts dating my friend. Theybreak up, she stops being
friends with me, and then go onto college. Same thing happened.
I had this really good friend.
My cousin, comes along. He's theproblem. I'm the cousin to get
away. He did later, apologize,like years later, but, you know,
(13:15):
like, I lost out on really goodfriendships. And so then that
impacted a lot of my adultfriendships, of being like,
well, I don't want to get tooclose, because then anything a
dumb cousin can ruin thisrelationship, right? And so it
really did have a huge impact onhow I approached friendships and
(13:40):
how much I let people in,because it was a repetitive, a
repeated thing that happened tome, and so I don't think it's
immature. I think that it's sooften we see our reactions, and
this is something that I've donea ridiculous amount of work on,
because I have a lot of traumafrom my childhood and growing up
in a cult and a lot of otherthings. And that is my first
(14:02):
reaction, my first thought, myfirst want to respond, I'm not
responsible for that. That is mybrain trying to protect me. That
is my trauma, saying, hey,alert, something is scary, and
that's okay. That's what makesme human. It's then that okay.
(14:24):
Pause. Is this actually true?
Does this person actually hateme? Is my spouse actually really
trying to make my lifemiserable? No, I have to pause
and think, Okay, what do I knowto be true? Okay, cool. Then,
how do I approach that? And Ithink that takes so much self
(14:47):
work that a 27 year old,especially, I'm into astrology.
If you're going through yourSaturn in return, you're going
through a lot of stuff during 27to 30 already, of who in the.
Called am I? So no, it's notweird to me
Ruby Rana (15:03):
at all. Yeah. And I mean, I guess I've been 27 and I
know how just chaotic life canbe, that your life is still
changing. You're still formingthis person at 27 I was
definitely not the same person Iwas in college, but I'm
definitely not the same person Iam now. And I think it's a
(15:24):
process. It's a revolution, ofyou're constantly changing, and
this idea of like people intheir 20s and 30s should have it
all together, that's just nottrue. People in their 20s don't
have it together. People intheir 30s don't have it
together. People in their 40sand 50s don't have it together,
but it's just in differentaspects. You may know one thing
(15:45):
about your life, you may havestability in one part of your
life, but other things may notbe and again, it's always
changing. And so I think we needto get rid of that idea that,
Oh, that's okay for like,college people, because they're
like this, and they're stilllearning, but you're still
learning in your 20s too, andyou're still learning in your
30s as well. So, yeah, I justsometimes I feel like that kind
(16:06):
of criticism hurt almost,because I'm like, well, that's
me, you know what? I mean? Like,I've done some stupid shit. I
have made dumb mistakes over andover again, and I'm an adult.
I'm 30. I was like that when Iwas 27 you know what I mean? So
then it feels like an attack onmy being, and I try not to think
(16:28):
of it like that, but it doeshurt sometimes when they're
like, Oh, they're so immature.
They're supposed to be 27 it'slike, have you met any 27 year
olds? Have you met any 20 yearold hockey players? Because they
are insanely immature. They playsports professionally, like they
play games for a living. Theyare immature. I'm not saying
that they can't be mature incertain situations, but they are
(16:50):
very immature in othersituations. So it's just a
thing. They don't have to bethis super mature person all the
time, especially in their placesof comfort or friendships, where
they are in their safe space andthey are free to be who they
are. That's very interesting tome, to see the expectations of
20 and 30 year old. I
Alesia Galati (17:13):
think too, there are a few different things where
my brain is going with this.
It's like one. I think also inthe romance community, there's
almost this 18 is automaticallyyou know everything about
yourself, and you're able tomake huge life decisions for
yourself, and you're so mature.
(17:33):
And so that's reallyinteresting, that we those kinds
of storylines tend to get pushedin romance. So I like that
you're combating that two I lovethat you're you mentioned the
friendships, the friendshipsthat you create in your books, I
think is and I haven't read thesecond one yet. It will be out
(17:54):
by the time this goes live. Butthe friendships are just so deep
and so trusting and just I lovethat you have those really
healthy female friendshipsplaced in there before we get
back into the enemies to loversand like growing the characters
(18:15):
with that. Why do you think thathaving those really supportive
female friendships was importantto your characters.
Ruby Rana (18:22):
So for Indira, especially, first of all, She's
the eldest daughter of threegirls, so her house is overrun
with women, and she's the eldestone, so she's considered to be
more responsible. There's moreexpectation of her. But you
know, with her friendship group.
I think it's really importantfor her to have because of the
(18:43):
trauma that she's had with menin the past, she doesn't trust
men as easily. And Gabe, who hisher college roommate, they've
maintained their friendshipthroughout the years. And Bear
AZ B, who is her legalsecretary. Obviously, there has
to be a level of trust there aswell. And Sheena, her childhood
friend. I think it's reallyimportant to have those
(19:08):
friendships. I know that I amlucky enough to have these
lifetime, long friendships. Ihave friends who I've known
literally since I was born, twoyears old, eight years old, and
we're still friends. We havekids the same age. We all have
partners and and things andhouses to run and all this kind
of stuff, but we make time foreach other, and on the day to
(19:28):
day, we may not talk, but everycouple of weeks, we're in the
group chat, and every year weget together. And so I've been
really lucky to have thosetestaments of lifelong
friendship, and we've literallybeen through every phase of life
together. That whole process isso important because it just you
supported each other through theyears. And for Indira, it's just
(19:53):
that's her safe space. And. Andshe gets the most crap from them
too. They know what makes heruncomfortable, they push her
buttons, they make fun of her,but they're also the ones who
are there for her when they knowit's most important and vice
versa. No questions asked at theend of the day. That's her crew.
(20:15):
She is just well supported inthat, and I just wanted to
highlight that, because I thinkit's so important that there's
no like jealousy, there's nocompetition. They're successful,
they're smart, they're doingtheir own thing, but they get
together, they have a lot offun, and they bond over anything
that they do. So I reallyenjoyed writing that friendship,
(20:37):
because it's like an ode to thefriendships that I've been lucky
enough to have over the years.
Alesia Galati (20:45):
Oh, that's so beautiful. I love that so much,
and that you were able to havethat experience as well. I'm
someone who there's maybe one ortwo people that I still interact
with from my childhood and thenmy adult friendships. I'm in my
30s, the other one's in her 40s,and the other one's in her 50s.
(21:06):
It's like the three of us. Weget together, we talk about
everything. We're sendingmessages. If one of us is
struggling, we're always therefor each other to lift each
other up. And we've actuallynever met in real life, which is
so wild to me. That's amazing,but it's so beautiful to have
those friendships, to be like,I'm struggling, or I don't feel
supported, or I just need tovent, right? To have someone
(21:29):
that we can vent to, who's notgoing to be like, judging us or
or even giving advice, right?
Someone to just say, I hear youand I see you. I think is, it's
such a beautiful thing thing tohave, especially as women. So I
love that you put that into yourbooks. Now, enemies to lovers is
such a beautiful way to growcharacters, like we talked
(21:51):
about, even with the versionsthat I don't prefer, there still
has to be growth for it to belike, No, you're an asshole and
you don't deserve this girlright there. You have to grow as
a person. And so how do youthink that with your characters
specifically? And if you want togo into Book Two, how does this
enemy silver trope allow forthese characters to develop and
(22:13):
grow together and separately?
Because I think that's such animportant part of the books that
you write is that they do growindividually, well together,
without a bit of CO dependence,meeting each other for their own
future and growth. So how do youthink that trope really allows
for that character development?
Ruby Rana (22:34):
It's just that idea that someone cannot like you.
Someone cannot like yourqualities, your traits, your
habits that they findirritating, whatever it is, but
they can still love you despiteall of that. You can be X, Y and
(22:56):
Z and still be loved by someonethat you're worthy of love,
despite differences, despitearguments. And I think when you
don't see eye to eye withsomeone, it's really hard to
love them. It's really hard toaccept them. And I think that is
the appeal of enemies to lovers,that someone sees your flaws,
(23:19):
somebody sees the things thatthey don't actually prefer in a
partner, but they're able tolove you, and they do. They
actually love you despiteeverything else. I think friends
to lovers is very sweet, but Ithink enemies to lovers just has
a little bit more tension withsnapshot and Landon and Indy,
(23:42):
it's almost frenemies, or likemaybe one sided enemies, because
Indy is fighting her feelings somuch. I feel like Landon has
just succumbed. He knows, but Idon't think he knows to the
depth he's down so bad in thebeginning, but it's not until
towards the end, when herealizes that it's always been
(24:02):
her, that he has held a placefor her for so long that he
didn't know, evensubconsciously, what he was
doing, and that she had alwaysbeen this source of calm and
comfort for him without knowingit, you know. And I find that to
be really beautiful. I lovethat, that, yeah, he's down so
bad in the beginning, and yeah,he's like, horny or whatever for
(24:24):
her, but it's because of who sheis and how, even as a kid, she
stood up for herself, and howshe wouldn't take other people's
crap, and how she just foughtfor herself, and then kind of
understood was that caring,comforting person when he was
going through a tough time as a12 year old, his parents were
(24:46):
going through a divorce at thattime, and that's really hard for
a middle schooler. It's aconfusing time, especially when
they're trying to co parent. Soeveryone's just still in
everyone's lives. There's somebig changes there. It's hard to
ex. Up. Do you still loveeveryone? But it's still a big
change and a traumaticexperience to have someone
outside of that who's objectiveand just caring, even if they
(25:09):
don't feel like they're caring,it meant something to him, and I
think it just deepened as theirrelationship progressed,
whereas, like Indy was, youknow, definitely didn't like
this guy, even though she'd beenobsessed with him. And then the
truth comes out that evendespite hating him all these
years, she still followed hiscareer. She still did these
(25:32):
little celebrations when he hadbig successes and kept up with
it. And I really enjoyedwatching her just fall for it,
to see that okay, he truly caresabout me. He is showing me in so
many ways. He is showing me inall of the love languages, how
much he cares for me and whathe's willing to put on the table
(25:55):
for me. And I think that slowrealization is really nice to
see, and then just, it's awesometo just accept, finally, yeah,
like, this is it. I fought itfor so long, but you're it, so I
like seeing that with butterflyeffect. With Book Two, it's a
little bit different. Again, Istill have a problem with
(26:17):
writing men who are down so bad,but in this case, in Wade's
case, it's a little bit of hateto love, because he really likes
this person. He really likesGabe. He's desperate to show her
who he actually is, because he'sbeen pretending to be someone
(26:38):
who is acceptable to his world,acceptable to his teammates,
acceptable to the sport,acceptable to women. And he is
so tired of playing that person,he knows that he's not that
person. Not many people get tosee who he actually is, and he's
just desperate to show her thathe's not the person she thinks,
(27:03):
and she's so adamant that he isthe person that he's showing
she's so adamant that she hateshim because he's embarrassed her
professionally. She feels eventhough it's a little bit
misdirected, she feelshumiliated by the fact that he
was the one who caught her exfiance cheating. That's,
(27:26):
obviously, it's completelymisdirected anger, but it's
still, it's still anger. Youknow, I hate this guy, plus he's
like a notorious Playboy, justlike her ex. There's all these
reasons to hate him, yet thereis an attraction. There is this
undercurrent of like magnetismbetween them. She's also eight
(27:48):
years older, so she finds him tobe really immature, especially
in this like chauvinistic fuckboy jock that he pretends to be
in front of his peers in frontof the cameras, and she finds it
really irritating, but when heslips her these little glimpses
of who he actually is, shesoftens. She doesn't want to
(28:11):
believe it, but slowly, shestarts to see what he actually
is, and that uncovering isreally a joy to see how Wade
slowly opens up his self to herand her slowly getting rid of
all of the layers that she's putup for herself, all of the walls
(28:35):
she's put up for herself interms of what She expected him
to be like through this fakedating thing. They have a
history, they had a kiss, theyhad a one night stand. She
considers them to be mistakes,and then all of a sudden,
they're caught in this fakedating publicity stunt, and she
doesn't know what to do with it.
But that process of themlearning about each other,
(28:58):
learning again, one what theirboundaries are, how who they are
is shaped so much by their pastand societal expectations, and
just getting rid of all thatwhen it's just them too, and how
they can just be themselves,it's really, I really enjoyed
watching that happen and unfold,and then they can, just like
(29:22):
unabashedly, without shame, justbe themselves. And I love that
when they are their true selves,they too, they both accept each
other fully, without criticismor judgment, all the banter and
stuff is like superficial thing,it's fun, it's funny, but when
it comes down to it, who theyreally are to each other and who
(29:43):
they are to themselves is areally fun and joyful process. I
really liked seeing it. It wasnothing like India and landed so
I liked that a lot. The
Alesia Galati (29:58):
way I cannot wait to devour that book. I keep
sending you DMS and being likeRoom A
Ruby Rana (30:06):
I meant to finish writing it so long ago, meant to
publish it so long ago, but lifehappens, and I've just had to
figure out when I could actuallymake it happen. And again, these
characters did give me a littlebit of trouble. So I had to
really figure out, you know whatthey were trying to tell me.
(30:26):
Other authors have otherprocesses. I don't know. I don't
make these things up for thecharacters. They just do it to
themselves. You know what Imean? Like they appear and they
just tell me things. They tellme their story. And sometimes it
changes. Sometimes they havesaid one thing, but it's
(30:46):
actually something else. And sosometimes the first thing they
said doesn't make sense to me,and I'm like, What is going on?
And eventually they just revealsomething else. And then I'm
like, Oh, okay. Now this makessense. Now this makes more sense
for your character. And so it'sbeen a process of filtering
through the brain dump andactually putting together words
(31:07):
that make sense for them andtheir story. And I'm really
excited to share how it turnedout. It's significantly shorter.
Alesia, it's so much shorter.
Snapshot was almost 150,000words. This is 80. It's 80,000
words, so it's like almost half.
(31:27):
And yet I felt like, do I needmore words? Am I doing justice
to their story? But I felt whenI wrote the end, it felt
complete. Yes, it felt okay. Icould beef up some of this, or I
could change the order of someof this, something like that.
But the story, I'm like, theirstory is complete. So I just
didn't want to just add randomstuff, just to fluff it up or
(31:51):
beef it up for any reason. But Ithink that in being able to
consolidate their story in aconcise way, that's what's right
for it. That's what it needed.
That's how long the story shouldbe. I'm sure there's more
scenarios and bonus stuff that Icould come up with. Like,
they'll say something to me in acouple weeks, and I'll be like,
Okay, put that into a bonuschapter somewhere. But I just
(32:12):
feel like it was complete. Itwasn't didn't feel like anything
was missing or didn't makesense. My style is still really
ridiculous. I think it's silly.
There's a little angst. There'sstill that. I feel like it's
still very much my style ofwriting, but I think it's
improved. And it's their voice,it's their voices that are
(32:35):
really shining through.
Alesia Galati (32:38):
Oh, that's so fun. And I think that makes for
the best kind of story, right?
Is that it's no this, yeah,story, and they said, This is
it, and so that is it, andthat's okay. I love it, yeah? So
why hockey? I believe you wereborn and raised in Canada,
right?
Ruby Rana (32:56):
I was born and raised in the US Midwest, so I
actually, I had been readingsome hockey romance around the
time that I got the idea forsnapshot. But again, it's just
crazy how the human mind works.
I had the idea, partially basedon me as a 12 year old hockey
(33:17):
player in the Midwest who wasthe only girl on the boys team.
There was no girls team. Hockeyis not very popular in the
Midwest other than like thenorthern Midwest, like
Minnesota, Wisconsin, it's morepopular there, but it's not that
popular in other parts. Again,we had one in middle school,
like the under 13 League hadbasically one team per district,
(33:43):
per school district. People areinto football, basketball, other
sports, just not hockey. Andhockey was not new, but, like,
they had a brand new ice rink,and I had been ice skating for
some time. I danced in the past.
I was a little bit of a rebel. Idid a lot of other sports, and I
(34:04):
just really wanted to try it.
And basically people told me Icouldn't because there was no
girls team. And I was like, thenI'll try out for the boys team.
What's your problem? So it wasbased on that. But there was no
crush. I did not have anysupport. I did not have a friend
on the team. None of those guysliked me, but I was a goalie and
I was a little chunky, so that'sthe part working. That's like my
(34:26):
love for hockey came from thatI've been watching hockey for
ages. It's really fun to watch.
It's a really fun sport. I livedin Chicago for eight or nine
years of my adult life. Iwatched the Black Hawks, and I
was there for two Stanley Cupwins. So it was a lot of fun.
It's just a fun sport, and thoseguys are, like, true athletes. I
(34:50):
feel like for almost any otherprofessional sport, the skills
are so specific. They're sospecific to. The sport that they
really hone in on those skills.
But for hockey, they have to doso much at the same time.
They're skating, they're holdinga stick, they are managing a
puck, they're avoiding beingchecked. There's so much agility
(35:13):
and strength and power and speedand everything all combined. And
you're on ice, you're on iceskates. There's so much skill.
It's really true. Because,again, I've met many hockey
players throughout my life,whether in my middle school and
teenage years, they're like,good at all sports. They can
pretty much play any sport, andit's because they just have they
(35:37):
do all of the things on the ice.
It's really fun to see thoseguys play professionally. If
you've ever seen their like,behind the scenes stuff. They're
a bunch of goofballs. They'rejust giant children, pranking
each other, goofing off, havinglike, crazy parties. You know
(36:00):
what I mean? Like, just theirlifestyle is so demanding, but
also so fun, and it's fun towrite about. Again, they have
very demanding lives, just withthe sport and travel, and so
they experience a lot of things,and then also just it's not
huge. Like, football teams arelike 100 people, hockey rosters
are like 25 to 30 max. So that'sa very tight knit group of men
(36:27):
who are with each other for along time, throughout the
season, on the road andpractices, they become brothers,
you know. So that also issomething that I wanted to have,
those like healthy malerelationships as well. And there
is a little bit of differencebetween snapshot and butterfly
effect in that, because Landonhas grown up with healthy male
(36:49):
relationships, even though hisparents were divorced, his dad
was a very present parent. Hehas men in his life who have
always been there, whereas inBook Two in Butterfly Effect,
Wade has an absentee father. Hewas raised by his mother. He has
daddy issues. He doesn't formmale relationships quickly,
(37:13):
other than superficially, andthat kind of adds into who he
shows his teammates, who he hasplayed, because in the past, who
he is was not accepted, and sohe plays a part to feel accepted
in this community, in his teamagain for the cameras, because
who he pretends to be is moresocially acceptable than who he
(37:34):
actually is. And so hisrelationships with his peers,
you see a few glimpses of it,but you can see why he gets
along better with women, why hetrusts women, and you can see
his just trepidation around men,older men, Dad figures, and just
a little bit of a barrier.
Eventually, there are people onthe team that he's closest to,
(37:55):
but sometimes he doesn't showthem all of himself either, and
it's nice to see that eventuallyhe does, eventually he's able to
be his true self and his peergroup. And yeah, yeah, I
Alesia Galati (38:07):
think that hockey players are so extremely
athletic. I want to say it was aAlexandra house book where one
of her part of our hockeyseries, or maybe it was a
different one. It was a blackromance specifically. And they
were talking about this girlbrings home this hockey player,
(38:28):
and her family is like, Oh no,no. It wasn't Alexandria house.
It was someone else. Herfamily's like, oh no. We're
football players in this house,or we're football I was in this
house, and like, hockey isn'teven a real sport, and they
like, try to, like, make himfeel bad about what he has to go
through to be a hockey player.
And so I was like, oh mygoodness, I can't imagine it
takes so much focus, and, likeyou said, athleticism. And so
(38:53):
then I had a whole discussionwith my husband. I was like, Who
do you think is more athleticfootball players or hockey
players, and he watches footballreligiously. And he was like,
football players. And I waslike, I disagree. And here's why
it turned into this wholediscussion about all the things
they have to go through. And Idon't think we even came to an
(39:14):
agreement, quote, unquote,right? I was like, This is how I
feel. This how you feel, cool,whatever. Moving on. I'm done
talking about sports. So thatwas, I think, a really fun and
interesting conversation tohave, and I think it's something
that, especially as Americans, Idon't think that the average
American thinks about,especially if you don't, yeah,
watch hockey
Ruby Rana (39:38):
in their sport, they have to be really aggressive.
And sometimes I feel likereaders love the Alpha hole, you
know, they love the malecharacter to have control, but
again, also, they're very agile.
And then you see them on screen,and see them be just absolute
Golden Retrievers, and they'resuper rich. There's all sorts of
(39:59):
things that are enticing aboutprofessional hockey players.
College hockey, totallydifferent thing. But I think
professional hockey, these arethe things that are enticing and
it's fun to be a part of. It'sit's gotten so widespread. It's
really amazing how widespreadit's gotten. But yeah, I'm
definitely not from Canada. Itjust made sense for the story to
(40:21):
be in Canada, and so that's whyI did it. I think it's really
funny. This is not the firsttime somebody thought that I was
born and raised in Canada.
They're like, why else wouldsomebody write about a team in
Ottawa, Canada? And actually oneof my, one of my beta readers,
(40:41):
and a reader who's read snapshotafter it was released, she's
from Ottawa, so she gets like, akick out of it, because the
Ottawa Senators, the actual NHLteam there, is, like,
notoriously bad. And she justfinds it hilarious that I have
created this, like, superstarteam in autumn, and I really
(41:04):
enjoy it. It's really fun.
They're based off of a mixturebetween the Boston Bruins and
the Pittsburgh Penguins, and youcan see that reflected in their
colors, like black, white andgold. But yeah, both of those
teams, I have huge respect forthem. They have some incredible
players just the way they workas a team, and it's just they're
fun to watch. They're fun aspeople, as athletes, to watch,
(41:30):
but also just the behind thescenes, in the locker rooms, all
the stuff that they pull it'sjust fun to see them as groups
of men, and so a lot of like,little hijinks and shenanigans
are based off of those teams,and as well as the skill set for
athleticism, I
Alesia Galati (41:49):
love that, though I think that it's adds more of a
depth to the sport. When you area fan, I think a lot of people,
especially authors, who arelike, dabbling into hockey
romances. It doesn't feel likeyou even like the sport. It's
sprinkled in there, almost as anafterthought. But when you with
your book, I feel like it reallycame through of a really intense
(42:14):
sport. And wow, this is probablythe first one that I've read
where I could actuallyunderstand maybe what was going
on without being like, what?
What's happening as someone whodoes not watch it? Yeah,
Ruby Rana (42:27):
there's so many like terms and lingo, whatever slang
that is only pretty much knownto like the hockey community, or
people who even the fans, if youwatch it, then you understand.
But I highly recommend anybodywatching it. It's a lot of fun
to watch. It's very entertainingto watch, even if you're, like,
not really into sports, it's alot of fun to watch. I just
(42:50):
recommend anyone who readshockey romance, who enjoys
hockey romance, watch a game.
Does it matter if it's minorleague? You know, it doesn't
matter Junior League, whatever,even, like the Women's Hockey
League is so fun to watch.
They're incredible athletes.
It'll make more sense if thestuff that you've been reading
actually references hockey. It'snot just about a hockey player.
(43:10):
Sometimes hockey romance is likethat, and that's okay too, that
it's just a hockey player. It'softentimes that like that their
whole life. Hockey is so much oftheir time, such a big chunk of
their year, whether it'straining or playing or being on
the road postseason, if they'reany good, and then they do it,
you know, again and again, andmaybe they get traded, and then
(43:31):
they have to play for anotherteam, and they have that's just
constant going on. And I feellike you can't cut it out of
their life, because it's so manyhours of their day, so many
months of their year. So youhave to mention it. That's like
such a big part of who they are.
And I love being on the ice andin the game, those scenes make
(43:53):
me laugh so much. And the lockerroom stuff, the locker room
stuff, is so silly. It's totallyimmature, totally silly, but
it's a rom com, guys like, it'ssupposed to be funny and silly,
right? It's fun.
Alesia Galati (44:06):
I love it. Oh, Ruby, this has been so much fun
for anyone who's like, Yes, Ineed to read these books. Where
can they find you? Get to knowyou stalk you on social, all
that fun stuff. So
Ruby Rana (44:18):
I'm on Amazon. That's primarily where you can find my
books. I'm in several indieromance bookstores, a couple of
Barnes and Nobles scribblesbookshop run by Haley Dicker,
who is a wonderful sportsromance author herself. She has
signed copies of snapshot. She'salso doing pre orders for
(44:40):
Butterfly Effect, steamy litdown in just outside Miami, is
also going to be doing a preorder for butterfly effect, and
they have snapshot as well. Sothere's a lot of places. Amazon
is the primary place, butscribbles bookshop if you want a
signed copy, if you read it onK. You or read it on the Kindle,
(45:02):
and then want to, you know, havethe physical copy. Scribbles is
a great place, because you get alittle swag, you'll get it
signed. I love that bookstore.
She does such wonderful workwith indie authors. So yeah, you
can find me at all those places,and if you search for me on your
favorite independent bookstore,especially if it's a romance
theme. You may find me there.
(45:24):
I've been lucky enough toconnect with a lot of those
bookstores, and they've been sokind and gracious to stock my
books, either online or order.
You know that you can place anorder and they can call it in
and send it out to you. So yeah,and we'll
Alesia Galati (45:38):
make sure that we have those linked in the show
notes in the description. Thatway, if anyone is driving or
doing other stuff, you can grabthose links as well. Ruby, thank
you so much. This has been somuch fun. Thank
Ruby Rana (45:50):
you. I had a blast speaking with you about this.
Thank you so much.
Unknown (46:02):
You.
Is it just me, or is there something so incredibly
(00:02):
satisfying about watching twopeople who absolutely cannot
stand each other fall head overheels in love? Today, we're
dissecting enemies to lovers andits glorious appeal with
incredible author, Ruby Rana.
Listener, discretion is advised.
This podcast contains maturecontent intended for adult
(00:25):
audiences only. Ruby, I am soexcited to dive into all things
enemies to lovers with you. Butbefore we get into that, I want
to remind our listeners thatenemies to lovers are different
from rivals to lovers. Rivals tolovers, I like to think of
(00:46):
almost as like academic rivalsto lovers, or career rivals to
lovers, where you're maybe inthe same corporate space or the
same academic space, and you'recompeting for similar titles,
similar awards or recognition.
Yeah, and you kind of hate theother person because they're
going after the same things youare. Maybe you've won some
they've won some, as you kind ofhate their guts, but at the same
(01:09):
time, there's a bit of angstthat can happen in there, and
eventually some love maybe. Sothat is different, but enemies
to lovers. You know, a lot ofpeople are like, oh, people say
enemies to lovers, but it's notreally enemies. But I feel like
you really put the enemies andenemies to lovers. So let's dive
(01:32):
into your first book, your debutsnapshot, kind of give us a
little synopsis of that and howthe enemies lovers trope plays
into that.
Ruby Rana (01:45):
Sure. First of all, thank you for having me. I'm so
excited to be here. And yeah, sosnapshot is about Landon
Roddick. He's a star hockeyplayer, and he gets caught in a
postseason scandal. They're ontheir way to the Stanley Cup,
and photo releases of him in aposition against his condo with
(02:12):
a previous staffer and all hellkind of breaks loose. Things go
viral. The person involved gets,you know, on a mic and says all
this stuff, and it really messeswith his head, and Stanley Cup
fades away. They don't make itto the championship. The
management hires a lawyer tojust recover his reputation,
(02:37):
because he's kind of the goldenboy. He has never done anything
like this. He's never beeninvolved in anything like this.
Like this. He's not like the badboy. And so they hire one of the
best libel lawyers in thecountry, in Canada, and when
they finally meet, it so happensthat it's his childhood friend
who they used to play hockeytogether as kids, and for some
(03:00):
reason, she has held a grudge,and she just hates him. He has
no idea why he has fondmemories, but they navigate
through that. He tries to figureout why she's acting a certain
way towards him, and tries torekindle their friendship, gets
to the root of it, and thenfinds out a bunch of personal
(03:23):
things about her, and realizesthat he just wants to keep up
with it, that he has thischildhood crush that is like
kind of coming true now that hecould actually do something
about and they come to a friendswith benefits agreement, And she
has rules because her boundarieshave been crossed before and
(03:44):
their lawyer clients, so it'sstrictly forbidden. So yeah, and
it's just kind of how they fightwith their feelings, especially
the lawyer Indira deve she, she,like, knows in her heart what
her feelings are, but she fightsthem through so many layers
because she believes thatthere's nothing that could make
(04:06):
her fall again for someone likehim. So I think there's a lot of
push and pull in that. But Ihave a problem with just writing
men who are down so bad. Youknow? I think that's like the
line of like enemies to lovers.
People love that switch whenit's like true hate towards the
other person. But I think thatwhat happens with me is because
(04:27):
I don't know, I just don't likethe idea of hating a woman. I
think he's just he likes her. Hewants to be liked by her, as
like a person, as a friend, as aromantic learner, but he also
doesn't want to be disrespected.
He also doesn't want to beaccused of things he hasn't
(04:48):
done. Like he can handle thebickering. He can handle the
banter. He will shoot offremarks just as good as she
does. But I think he's stillinside. He's just down so bad.
Yeah, and for her, it's justlike a hate to love thing that I
hate, that I like someone likehim, I hate that I still have
this childhood crush that wasnipped too early, and we, like
(05:11):
never got that chance. And fear,like fear of rejection, fear of
so many things that is from herpast that she's just afraid that
it'll happen again. So I thinkthose are all the layers and
then just figuring out theirboundaries and figuring out who
they are to each other, fromlawyer client who don't really
(05:31):
like each other to friends whohave like an understanding, who
have boundaries, and seeingthose boundaries pushed again
and again. And both peopleagreeing to those, both people
agreeing to that consent of,okay, let's new rule or Nix that
rule. Forget about that rule.
Like the rule doesn't work forus anymore. Let's just keep
going to finally admitting whattheir actual feelings are and
(05:52):
then blossoming from it. Soyeah, that's a long summary,
but, yeah, it's a long book,guys, it is,
Alesia Galati (06:01):
but I think it's so good. And what I love about
your enemies to lovers is thatit was actually a practical
reason why someone would reallyhate someone else, without
spoiling it, like overhearingsomething or having those, like,
very middle school or, like,early teen everything is the
(06:27):
biggest deal in the world. Yeah,I try to think about that,
especially as a mom, thinkingabout, like, how my kids react
to things. They're 10 and seven,and I'm like, oh my god, it's
not that big of a deal. Like youhave your whole life ahead of
you. But then I have toremember, how did I feel when I
was that age when, you know, Ididn't get to go do the thing
that I really was lookingforward to, or I was
(06:49):
disappointed. And so have toremember, Oh no, this is
actually the biggest moment oftheir life right now, and how I
react has an impact. But thenthinking about your characters
and what they went through atthat time, a very pivotal moment
emotionally. And there were alot of additional things right,
without getting too manyspoilers away, that were
(07:11):
impacting the way they feltabout themselves, the way they
were living up to, like peerpressure, and so to have that
mixed like that, and then to seeeach other years later, and her
being like, Man, fuck you. I donot like I think was such a I
(07:32):
don't want to say relief, butthe way that you approached it
was such a relief, because Ifeel like a lot of authors
almost take the over the top.
This doesn't make sense enemiesto lovers, almost for like the
effect of it. For example, I wasreading a book where the it's
this really rich hockey player.
(07:56):
He's drunk driving. He hits agirl she ends up losing out on
her ballet career. His dad paysher and her mom off a year
later, his hockey career is nowcompletely ruined. So it dark,
hockey, college romance, butopposite sides of the track.
They end up seeing each other.
He knows exactly who she is. Shedoesn't really know who he is,
(08:19):
because she doesn't remember alot of that night. And then,
like, her ballet career wasruined, his hockey career was
ruined. But he blames her forhis absolutely terrible
decision, and the way that heapproaches it is very like, you
ruined my life. Like, okay, man,Baby, what are you doing? And I
feel like that as an examplethat kind of enemies to lovers,
(08:44):
just feels like you're going forsome type, oh my gosh, where it
didn't really feel genuine. Itdidn't feel like they actually
hated each other. It felt likehe was just being an asshole,
which I don't think is enemiesto lovers, but I think a lot of
authors tend to use that as away to make it an enemy's
lovers. And I love that you donot
Ruby Rana (09:08):
well. I mean, every author has their own little
style, and every reader also hastheir own preferences. A lot of
readers, like those kind ofguys, they like to see the arc
of the development from that. Ihonestly, I like it too. I like
seeing the idiot asshole, but Ifeel like, for I don't know why
(09:30):
I do this, but I feel like, forme, the FMCS are the idiot
asshole. You know what I mean.
Like they their anger ismisdirected, their feelings,
while valid, are not alwaysplaced at the right person. It's
maybe at a situation that was inthe past, at another person, but
the person in front of them isright there. So it's let me just
(09:53):
do it, and that's like a veryhuman thing to do, but I feel
like a lot of times. It happensto the men in these stories,
they behave like this. But Ifeel like I just tend to make
the women like this, and maybeit's because I'm like this. I
have done that in the past. Iprobably still do that. You're
annoyed about something, andthen my husband shows up and I
(10:15):
just explode at him where hedoesn't deserve it, or anything
like that, but things from ourpast trauma, people and
relationships that we've had inthe past affect those actions.
And I wanted to play into that,and I had gotten some feedback
on you're a 27 year old woman,how can you just hold on to
something from middle school?
(10:38):
But sometimes like, scars canrun really deep. And then, like,
you forget about things. Youlive your whole life. You go to
high school, you go to college.
For India, she went to lawschool. She's, like, incredibly
successful. But like, obviously,Landon meant something to her,
that friendship meant temptingto her. It was like at a point
in her life where she didn'thave a lot of support in
(10:58):
general, in something that shewanted to do and ultimately gave
up, but like he was that oneperson who she thought she could
trust, and when that trust isbroken, it just leaves a scar,
and then suddenly this person isback in your life, and you have
to be professional with them,and then they're acting like
nothing happened and that theylike you and all this kind of
(11:19):
stuff. Like it toys with theemotions. I know that if I saw
somebody from middle school whodidn't treat me well, now I'd
probably be like, civil andrespectful, like whatever, but I
would still remember the thingsthat they said and did to me and
how they made me feel. So I feellike that's what I tried to
highlight. I don't want it to belike, Oh, they're so immature.
(11:42):
Like that, she hung out. But Ifeel like people think that 27
year olds 30 year olds are acertain way, but we're all
human. Obviously, they're maturein different ways, but I'm also
super immature in other ways. Iknow my humor is immature, but
it's just funny. I mean,sometimes it's just funny, and
(12:03):
what makes me laugh and a 20year old laugh could be the same
thing people in their 20s do actinappropriately, as do women in
their 30s, too. So we're notabout making good decisions all
the time. Here. Could make a lotof mistakes. We have a lot of
flaws. We try to make up for it.
(12:25):
We say sorry and move on. Soyeah, yeah.
Alesia Galati (12:28):
I think, I think it's silly to assume that our
past doesn't have any impact onhow we approach life now. I
mean, even me, I had friendshipsin high school where I was
really good friends withsomeone, and I'm the kind of
person where you're my bestfriend, you're my only best
friend. It's you and me to theend of the world. That's how I
was as a teenager, and just verypossessive of my friendships.
(12:54):
And then so in this onefriendship, my cousin shows up.
He starts dating my friend. Theybreak up, she stops being
friends with me, and then go onto college. Same thing happened.
I had this really good friend.
My cousin, comes along. He's theproblem. I'm the cousin to get
away. He did later, apologize,like years later, but, you know,
(13:15):
like, I lost out on really goodfriendships. And so then that
impacted a lot of my adultfriendships, of being like,
well, I don't want to get tooclose, because then anything a
dumb cousin can ruin thisrelationship, right? And so it
really did have a huge impact onhow I approached friendships and
(13:40):
how much I let people in,because it was a repetitive, a
repeated thing that happened tome, and so I don't think it's
immature. I think that it's sooften we see our reactions, and
this is something that I've donea ridiculous amount of work on,
because I have a lot of traumafrom my childhood and growing up
in a cult and a lot of otherthings. And that is my first
(14:02):
reaction, my first thought, myfirst want to respond, I'm not
responsible for that. That is mybrain trying to protect me. That
is my trauma, saying, hey,alert, something is scary, and
that's okay. That's what makesme human. It's then that okay.
(14:24):
Pause. Is this actually true?
Does this person actually hateme? Is my spouse actually really
trying to make my lifemiserable? No, I have to pause
and think, Okay, what do I knowto be true? Okay, cool. Then,
how do I approach that? And Ithink that takes so much self
(14:47):
work that a 27 year old,especially, I'm into astrology.
If you're going through yourSaturn in return, you're going
through a lot of stuff during 27to 30 already, of who in the.
Called am I? So no, it's notweird to me
Ruby Rana (15:03):
at all. Yeah. And I mean, I guess I've been 27 and I
know how just chaotic life canbe, that your life is still
changing. You're still formingthis person at 27 I was
definitely not the same person Iwas in college, but I'm
definitely not the same person Iam now. And I think it's a
(15:24):
process. It's a revolution, ofyou're constantly changing, and
this idea of like people intheir 20s and 30s should have it
all together, that's just nottrue. People in their 20s don't
have it together. People intheir 30s don't have it
together. People in their 40sand 50s don't have it together,
but it's just in differentaspects. You may know one thing
(15:45):
about your life, you may havestability in one part of your
life, but other things may notbe and again, it's always
changing. And so I think we needto get rid of that idea that,
Oh, that's okay for like,college people, because they're
like this, and they're stilllearning, but you're still
learning in your 20s too, andyou're still learning in your
30s as well. So, yeah, I justsometimes I feel like that kind
(16:06):
of criticism hurt almost,because I'm like, well, that's
me, you know what? I mean? Like,I've done some stupid shit. I
have made dumb mistakes over andover again, and I'm an adult.
I'm 30. I was like that when Iwas 27 you know what I mean? So
then it feels like an attack onmy being, and I try not to think
(16:28):
of it like that, but it doeshurt sometimes when they're
like, Oh, they're so immature.
They're supposed to be 27 it'slike, have you met any 27 year
olds? Have you met any 20 yearold hockey players? Because they
are insanely immature. They playsports professionally, like they
play games for a living. Theyare immature. I'm not saying
that they can't be mature incertain situations, but they are
(16:50):
very immature in othersituations. So it's just a
thing. They don't have to bethis super mature person all the
time, especially in their placesof comfort or friendships, where
they are in their safe space andthey are free to be who they
are. That's very interesting tome, to see the expectations of
20 and 30 year old. I
Alesia Galati (17:13):
think too, there are a few different things where
my brain is going with this.
It's like one. I think also inthe romance community, there's
almost this 18 is automaticallyyou know everything about
yourself, and you're able tomake huge life decisions for
yourself, and you're so mature.
(17:33):
And so that's reallyinteresting, that we those kinds
of storylines tend to get pushedin romance. So I like that
you're combating that two I lovethat you're you mentioned the
friendships, the friendshipsthat you create in your books, I
think is and I haven't read thesecond one yet. It will be out
(17:54):
by the time this goes live. Butthe friendships are just so deep
and so trusting and just I lovethat you have those really
healthy female friendshipsplaced in there before we get
back into the enemies to loversand like growing the characters
(18:15):
with that. Why do you think thathaving those really supportive
female friendships was importantto your characters.
Ruby Rana (18:22):
So for Indira, especially, first of all, She's
the eldest daughter of threegirls, so her house is overrun
with women, and she's the eldestone, so she's considered to be
more responsible. There's moreexpectation of her. But you
know, with her friendship group.
I think it's really importantfor her to have because of the
(18:43):
trauma that she's had with menin the past, she doesn't trust
men as easily. And Gabe, who hisher college roommate, they've
maintained their friendshipthroughout the years. And Bear
AZ B, who is her legalsecretary. Obviously, there has
to be a level of trust there aswell. And Sheena, her childhood
friend. I think it's reallyimportant to have those
(19:08):
friendships. I know that I amlucky enough to have these
lifetime, long friendships. Ihave friends who I've known
literally since I was born, twoyears old, eight years old, and
we're still friends. We havekids the same age. We all have
partners and and things andhouses to run and all this kind
of stuff, but we make time foreach other, and on the day to
(19:28):
day, we may not talk, but everycouple of weeks, we're in the
group chat, and every year weget together. And so I've been
really lucky to have thosetestaments of lifelong
friendship, and we've literallybeen through every phase of life
together. That whole process isso important because it just you
supported each other through theyears. And for Indira, it's just
(19:53):
that's her safe space. And. Andshe gets the most crap from them
too. They know what makes heruncomfortable, they push her
buttons, they make fun of her,but they're also the ones who
are there for her when they knowit's most important and vice
versa. No questions asked at theend of the day. That's her crew.
(20:15):
She is just well supported inthat, and I just wanted to
highlight that, because I thinkit's so important that there's
no like jealousy, there's nocompetition. They're successful,
they're smart, they're doingtheir own thing, but they get
together, they have a lot offun, and they bond over anything
that they do. So I reallyenjoyed writing that friendship,
(20:37):
because it's like an ode to thefriendships that I've been lucky
enough to have over the years.
Alesia Galati (20:45):
Oh, that's so beautiful. I love that so much,
and that you were able to havethat experience as well. I'm
someone who there's maybe one ortwo people that I still interact
with from my childhood and thenmy adult friendships. I'm in my
30s, the other one's in her 40s,and the other one's in her 50s.
(21:06):
It's like the three of us. Weget together, we talk about
everything. We're sendingmessages. If one of us is
struggling, we're always therefor each other to lift each
other up. And we've actuallynever met in real life, which is
so wild to me. That's amazing,but it's so beautiful to have
those friendships, to be like,I'm struggling, or I don't feel
supported, or I just need tovent, right? To have someone
(21:29):
that we can vent to, who's notgoing to be like, judging us or
or even giving advice, right?
Someone to just say, I hear youand I see you. I think is, it's
such a beautiful thing thing tohave, especially as women. So I
love that you put that into yourbooks. Now, enemies to lovers is
such a beautiful way to growcharacters, like we talked
(21:51):
about, even with the versionsthat I don't prefer, there still
has to be growth for it to belike, No, you're an asshole and
you don't deserve this girlright there. You have to grow as
a person. And so how do youthink that with your characters
specifically? And if you want togo into Book Two, how does this
enemy silver trope allow forthese characters to develop and
(22:13):
grow together and separately?
Because I think that's such animportant part of the books that
you write is that they do growindividually, well together,
without a bit of CO dependence,meeting each other for their own
future and growth. So how do youthink that trope really allows
for that character development?
Ruby Rana (22:34):
It's just that idea that someone cannot like you.
Someone cannot like yourqualities, your traits, your
habits that they findirritating, whatever it is, but
they can still love you despiteall of that. You can be X, Y and
(22:56):
Z and still be loved by someonethat you're worthy of love,
despite differences, despitearguments. And I think when you
don't see eye to eye withsomeone, it's really hard to
love them. It's really hard toaccept them. And I think that is
the appeal of enemies to lovers,that someone sees your flaws,
(23:19):
somebody sees the things thatthey don't actually prefer in a
partner, but they're able tolove you, and they do. They
actually love you despiteeverything else. I think friends
to lovers is very sweet, but Ithink enemies to lovers just has
a little bit more tension withsnapshot and Landon and Indy,
(23:42):
it's almost frenemies, or likemaybe one sided enemies, because
Indy is fighting her feelings somuch. I feel like Landon has
just succumbed. He knows, but Idon't think he knows to the
depth he's down so bad in thebeginning, but it's not until
towards the end, when herealizes that it's always been
(24:02):
her, that he has held a placefor her for so long that he
didn't know, evensubconsciously, what he was
doing, and that she had alwaysbeen this source of calm and
comfort for him without knowingit, you know. And I find that to
be really beautiful. I lovethat, that, yeah, he's down so
bad in the beginning, and yeah,he's like, horny or whatever for
(24:24):
her, but it's because of who sheis and how, even as a kid, she
stood up for herself, and howshe wouldn't take other people's
crap, and how she just foughtfor herself, and then kind of
understood was that caring,comforting person when he was
going through a tough time as a12 year old, his parents were
(24:46):
going through a divorce at thattime, and that's really hard for
a middle schooler. It's aconfusing time, especially when
they're trying to co parent. Soeveryone's just still in
everyone's lives. There's somebig changes there. It's hard to
ex. Up. Do you still loveeveryone? But it's still a big
change and a traumaticexperience to have someone
outside of that who's objectiveand just caring, even if they
(25:09):
don't feel like they're caring,it meant something to him, and I
think it just deepened as theirrelationship progressed,
whereas, like Indy was, youknow, definitely didn't like
this guy, even though she'd beenobsessed with him. And then the
truth comes out that evendespite hating him all these
years, she still followed hiscareer. She still did these
(25:32):
little celebrations when he hadbig successes and kept up with
it. And I really enjoyedwatching her just fall for it,
to see that okay, he truly caresabout me. He is showing me in so
many ways. He is showing me inall of the love languages, how
much he cares for me and whathe's willing to put on the table
(25:55):
for me. And I think that slowrealization is really nice to
see, and then just, it's awesometo just accept, finally, yeah,
like, this is it. I fought itfor so long, but you're it, so I
like seeing that with butterflyeffect. With Book Two, it's a
little bit different. Again, Istill have a problem with
(26:17):
writing men who are down so bad,but in this case, in Wade's
case, it's a little bit of hateto love, because he really likes
this person. He really likesGabe. He's desperate to show her
who he actually is, because he'sbeen pretending to be someone
(26:38):
who is acceptable to his world,acceptable to his teammates,
acceptable to the sport,acceptable to women. And he is
so tired of playing that person,he knows that he's not that
person. Not many people get tosee who he actually is, and he's
just desperate to show her thathe's not the person she thinks,
(27:03):
and she's so adamant that he isthe person that he's showing
she's so adamant that she hateshim because he's embarrassed her
professionally. She feels eventhough it's a little bit
misdirected, she feelshumiliated by the fact that he
was the one who caught her exfiance cheating. That's,
(27:26):
obviously, it's completelymisdirected anger, but it's
still, it's still anger. Youknow, I hate this guy, plus he's
like a notorious Playboy, justlike her ex. There's all these
reasons to hate him, yet thereis an attraction. There is this
undercurrent of like magnetismbetween them. She's also eight
(27:48):
years older, so she finds him tobe really immature, especially
in this like chauvinistic fuckboy jock that he pretends to be
in front of his peers in frontof the cameras, and she finds it
really irritating, but when heslips her these little glimpses
of who he actually is, shesoftens. She doesn't want to
(28:11):
believe it, but slowly, shestarts to see what he actually
is, and that uncovering isreally a joy to see how Wade
slowly opens up his self to herand her slowly getting rid of
all of the layers that she's putup for herself, all of the walls
(28:35):
she's put up for herself interms of what She expected him
to be like through this fakedating thing. They have a
history, they had a kiss, theyhad a one night stand. She
considers them to be mistakes,and then all of a sudden,
they're caught in this fakedating publicity stunt, and she
doesn't know what to do with it.
But that process of themlearning about each other,
(28:58):
learning again, one what theirboundaries are, how who they are
is shaped so much by their pastand societal expectations, and
just getting rid of all thatwhen it's just them too, and how
they can just be themselves,it's really, I really enjoyed
watching that happen and unfold,and then they can, just like
(29:22):
unabashedly, without shame, justbe themselves. And I love that
when they are their true selves,they too, they both accept each
other fully, without criticismor judgment, all the banter and
stuff is like superficial thing,it's fun, it's funny, but when
it comes down to it, who theyreally are to each other and who
(29:43):
they are to themselves is areally fun and joyful process. I
really liked seeing it. It wasnothing like India and landed so
I liked that a lot. The
Alesia Galati (29:58):
way I cannot wait to devour that book. I keep
sending you DMS and being likeRoom A
Ruby Rana (30:06):
I meant to finish writing it so long ago, meant to
publish it so long ago, but lifehappens, and I've just had to
figure out when I could actuallymake it happen. And again, these
characters did give me a littlebit of trouble. So I had to
really figure out, you know whatthey were trying to tell me.
(30:26):
Other authors have otherprocesses. I don't know. I don't
make these things up for thecharacters. They just do it to
themselves. You know what Imean? Like they appear and they
just tell me things. They tellme their story. And sometimes it
changes. Sometimes they havesaid one thing, but it's
(30:46):
actually something else. And sosometimes the first thing they
said doesn't make sense to me,and I'm like, What is going on?
And eventually they just revealsomething else. And then I'm
like, Oh, okay. Now this makessense. Now this makes more sense
for your character. And so it'sbeen a process of filtering
through the brain dump andactually putting together words
(31:07):
that make sense for them andtheir story. And I'm really
excited to share how it turnedout. It's significantly shorter.
Alesia, it's so much shorter.
Snapshot was almost 150,000words. This is 80. It's 80,000
words, so it's like almost half.
(31:27):
And yet I felt like, do I needmore words? Am I doing justice
to their story? But I felt whenI wrote the end, it felt
complete. Yes, it felt okay. Icould beef up some of this, or I
could change the order of someof this, something like that.
But the story, I'm like, theirstory is complete. So I just
didn't want to just add randomstuff, just to fluff it up or
(31:51):
beef it up for any reason. But Ithink that in being able to
consolidate their story in aconcise way, that's what's right
for it. That's what it needed.
That's how long the story shouldbe. I'm sure there's more
scenarios and bonus stuff that Icould come up with. Like,
they'll say something to me in acouple weeks, and I'll be like,
Okay, put that into a bonuschapter somewhere. But I just
(32:12):
feel like it was complete. Itwasn't didn't feel like anything
was missing or didn't makesense. My style is still really
ridiculous. I think it's silly.
There's a little angst. There'sstill that. I feel like it's
still very much my style ofwriting, but I think it's
improved. And it's their voice,it's their voices that are
(32:35):
really shining through.
Alesia Galati (32:38):
Oh, that's so fun. And I think that makes for
the best kind of story, right?
Is that it's no this, yeah,story, and they said, This is
it, and so that is it, andthat's okay. I love it, yeah? So
why hockey? I believe you wereborn and raised in Canada,
right?
Ruby Rana (32:56):
I was born and raised in the US Midwest, so I
actually, I had been readingsome hockey romance around the
time that I got the idea forsnapshot. But again, it's just
crazy how the human mind works.
I had the idea, partially basedon me as a 12 year old hockey
(33:17):
player in the Midwest who wasthe only girl on the boys team.
There was no girls team. Hockeyis not very popular in the
Midwest other than like thenorthern Midwest, like
Minnesota, Wisconsin, it's morepopular there, but it's not that
popular in other parts. Again,we had one in middle school,
like the under 13 League hadbasically one team per district,
(33:43):
per school district. People areinto football, basketball, other
sports, just not hockey. Andhockey was not new, but, like,
they had a brand new ice rink,and I had been ice skating for
some time. I danced in the past.
I was a little bit of a rebel. Idid a lot of other sports, and I
(34:04):
just really wanted to try it.
And basically people told me Icouldn't because there was no
girls team. And I was like, thenI'll try out for the boys team.
What's your problem? So it wasbased on that. But there was no
crush. I did not have anysupport. I did not have a friend
on the team. None of those guysliked me, but I was a goalie and
I was a little chunky, so that'sthe part working. That's like my
(34:26):
love for hockey came from thatI've been watching hockey for
ages. It's really fun to watch.
It's a really fun sport. I livedin Chicago for eight or nine
years of my adult life. Iwatched the Black Hawks, and I
was there for two Stanley Cupwins. So it was a lot of fun.
It's just a fun sport, and thoseguys are, like, true athletes. I
(34:50):
feel like for almost any otherprofessional sport, the skills
are so specific. They're sospecific to. The sport that they
really hone in on those skills.
But for hockey, they have to doso much at the same time.
They're skating, they're holdinga stick, they are managing a
puck, they're avoiding beingchecked. There's so much agility
(35:13):
and strength and power and speedand everything all combined. And
you're on ice, you're on iceskates. There's so much skill.
It's really true. Because,again, I've met many hockey
players throughout my life,whether in my middle school and
teenage years, they're like,good at all sports. They can
pretty much play any sport, andit's because they just have they
(35:37):
do all of the things on the ice.
It's really fun to see thoseguys play professionally. If
you've ever seen their like,behind the scenes stuff. They're
a bunch of goofballs. They'rejust giant children, pranking
each other, goofing off, havinglike, crazy parties. You know
(36:00):
what I mean? Like, just theirlifestyle is so demanding, but
also so fun, and it's fun towrite about. Again, they have
very demanding lives, just withthe sport and travel, and so
they experience a lot of things,and then also just it's not
huge. Like, football teams arelike 100 people, hockey rosters
are like 25 to 30 max. So that'sa very tight knit group of men
(36:27):
who are with each other for along time, throughout the
season, on the road andpractices, they become brothers,
you know. So that also issomething that I wanted to have,
those like healthy malerelationships as well. And there
is a little bit of differencebetween snapshot and butterfly
effect in that, because Landonhas grown up with healthy male
(36:49):
relationships, even though hisparents were divorced, his dad
was a very present parent. Hehas men in his life who have
always been there, whereas inBook Two in Butterfly Effect,
Wade has an absentee father. Hewas raised by his mother. He has
daddy issues. He doesn't formmale relationships quickly,
(37:13):
other than superficially, andthat kind of adds into who he
shows his teammates, who he hasplayed, because in the past, who
he is was not accepted, and sohe plays a part to feel accepted
in this community, in his teamagain for the cameras, because
who he pretends to be is moresocially acceptable than who he
(37:34):
actually is. And so hisrelationships with his peers,
you see a few glimpses of it,but you can see why he gets
along better with women, why hetrusts women, and you can see
his just trepidation around men,older men, Dad figures, and just
a little bit of a barrier.
Eventually, there are people onthe team that he's closest to,
(37:55):
but sometimes he doesn't showthem all of himself either, and
it's nice to see that eventuallyhe does, eventually he's able to
be his true self and his peergroup. And yeah, yeah, I
Alesia Galati (38:07):
think that hockey players are so extremely
athletic. I want to say it was aAlexandra house book where one
of her part of our hockeyseries, or maybe it was a
different one. It was a blackromance specifically. And they
were talking about this girlbrings home this hockey player,
(38:28):
and her family is like, Oh no,no. It wasn't Alexandria house.
It was someone else. Herfamily's like, oh no. We're
football players in this house,or we're football I was in this
house, and like, hockey isn'teven a real sport, and they
like, try to, like, make himfeel bad about what he has to go
through to be a hockey player.
And so I was like, oh mygoodness, I can't imagine it
takes so much focus, and, likeyou said, athleticism. And so
(38:53):
then I had a whole discussionwith my husband. I was like, Who
do you think is more athleticfootball players or hockey
players, and he watches footballreligiously. And he was like,
football players. And I waslike, I disagree. And here's why
it turned into this wholediscussion about all the things
they have to go through. And Idon't think we even came to an
(39:14):
agreement, quote, unquote,right? I was like, This is how I
feel. This how you feel, cool,whatever. Moving on. I'm done
talking about sports. So thatwas, I think, a really fun and
interesting conversation tohave, and I think it's something
that, especially as Americans, Idon't think that the average
American thinks about,especially if you don't, yeah,
watch hockey
Ruby Rana (39:38):
in their sport, they have to be really aggressive.
And sometimes I feel likereaders love the Alpha hole, you
know, they love the malecharacter to have control, but
again, also, they're very agile.
And then you see them on screen,and see them be just absolute
Golden Retrievers, and they'resuper rich. There's all sorts of
(39:59):
things that are enticing aboutprofessional hockey players.
College hockey, totallydifferent thing. But I think
professional hockey, these arethe things that are enticing and
it's fun to be a part of. It'sit's gotten so widespread. It's
really amazing how widespreadit's gotten. But yeah, I'm
definitely not from Canada. Itjust made sense for the story to
(40:21):
be in Canada, and so that's whyI did it. I think it's really
funny. This is not the firsttime somebody thought that I was
born and raised in Canada.
They're like, why else wouldsomebody write about a team in
Ottawa, Canada? And actually oneof my, one of my beta readers,
(40:41):
and a reader who's read snapshotafter it was released, she's
from Ottawa, so she gets like, akick out of it, because the
Ottawa Senators, the actual NHLteam there, is, like,
notoriously bad. And she justfinds it hilarious that I have
created this, like, superstarteam in autumn, and I really
(41:04):
enjoy it. It's really fun.
They're based off of a mixturebetween the Boston Bruins and
the Pittsburgh Penguins, and youcan see that reflected in their
colors, like black, white andgold. But yeah, both of those
teams, I have huge respect forthem. They have some incredible
players just the way they workas a team, and it's just they're
fun to watch. They're fun aspeople, as athletes, to watch,
(41:30):
but also just the behind thescenes, in the locker rooms, all
the stuff that they pull it'sjust fun to see them as groups
of men, and so a lot of like,little hijinks and shenanigans
are based off of those teams,and as well as the skill set for
athleticism, I
Alesia Galati (41:49):
love that, though I think that it's adds more of a
depth to the sport. When you area fan, I think a lot of people,
especially authors, who arelike, dabbling into hockey
romances. It doesn't feel likeyou even like the sport. It's
sprinkled in there, almost as anafterthought. But when you with
your book, I feel like it reallycame through of a really intense
(42:14):
sport. And wow, this is probablythe first one that I've read
where I could actuallyunderstand maybe what was going
on without being like, what?
What's happening as someone whodoes not watch it? Yeah,
Ruby Rana (42:27):
there's so many like terms and lingo, whatever slang
that is only pretty much knownto like the hockey community, or
people who even the fans, if youwatch it, then you understand.
But I highly recommend anybodywatching it. It's a lot of fun
to watch. It's very entertainingto watch, even if you're, like,
not really into sports, it's alot of fun to watch. I just
(42:50):
recommend anyone who readshockey romance, who enjoys
hockey romance, watch a game.
Does it matter if it's minorleague? You know, it doesn't
matter Junior League, whatever,even, like the Women's Hockey
League is so fun to watch.
They're incredible athletes.
It'll make more sense if thestuff that you've been reading
actually references hockey. It'snot just about a hockey player.
(43:10):
Sometimes hockey romance is likethat, and that's okay too, that
it's just a hockey player. It'softentimes that like that their
whole life. Hockey is so much oftheir time, such a big chunk of
their year, whether it'straining or playing or being on
the road postseason, if they'reany good, and then they do it,
you know, again and again, andmaybe they get traded, and then
(43:31):
they have to play for anotherteam, and they have that's just
constant going on. And I feellike you can't cut it out of
their life, because it's so manyhours of their day, so many
months of their year. So youhave to mention it. That's like
such a big part of who they are.
And I love being on the ice andin the game, those scenes make
(43:53):
me laugh so much. And the lockerroom stuff, the locker room
stuff, is so silly. It's totallyimmature, totally silly, but
it's a rom com, guys like, it'ssupposed to be funny and silly,
right? It's fun.
Alesia Galati (44:06):
I love it. Oh, Ruby, this has been so much fun
for anyone who's like, Yes, Ineed to read these books. Where
can they find you? Get to knowyou stalk you on social, all
that fun stuff. So
Ruby Rana (44:18):
I'm on Amazon. That's primarily where you can find my
books. I'm in several indieromance bookstores, a couple of
Barnes and Nobles scribblesbookshop run by Haley Dicker,
who is a wonderful sportsromance author herself. She has
signed copies of snapshot. She'salso doing pre orders for
(44:40):
Butterfly Effect, steamy litdown in just outside Miami, is
also going to be doing a preorder for butterfly effect, and
they have snapshot as well. Sothere's a lot of places. Amazon
is the primary place, butscribbles bookshop if you want a
signed copy, if you read it onK. You or read it on the Kindle,
(45:02):
and then want to, you know, havethe physical copy. Scribbles is
a great place, because you get alittle swag, you'll get it
signed. I love that bookstore.
She does such wonderful workwith indie authors. So yeah, you
can find me at all those places,and if you search for me on your
favorite independent bookstore,especially if it's a romance
theme. You may find me there.
(45:24):
I've been lucky enough toconnect with a lot of those
bookstores, and they've been sokind and gracious to stock my
books, either online or order.
You know that you can place anorder and they can call it in
and send it out to you. So yeah,and we'll
Alesia Galati (45:38):
make sure that we have those linked in the show
notes in the description. Thatway, if anyone is driving or
doing other stuff, you can grabthose links as well. Ruby, thank
you so much. This has been somuch fun. Thank
Ruby Rana (45:50):
you. I had a blast speaking with you about this.
Thank you so much.
Unknown (46:02):
You.
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