October 22, 2025 • 32 mins
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, I'm in a cabin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my at all.
I don't think I did go throughsome doctors to find it.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from thenorthern beaches of Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia, whereit's about to get to 38 degrees
(01:09):
Celsius, which is a heat wave.
So there's all these thingsabout not lighting fires and
staying hydrated and taking careof the elderly and making sure
that you're okay and keeping theair conditioning on because it's
stinking, stinking hot.
And out the western suburbs ofSydney, it's going to be in the
(01:30):
low forties.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
Is it still going to get there?
Is it going to get that hot?
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I don't know.
That's what they say.
Yeah.
Hello, David.
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Hello there.
Yeah, I was I was out in it thismorning and I was uh surprised
how temperate it felt.
And maybe it's just becausewe're next to the ocean and it's
dry heat.
It's air that's been movingacross the country, so it's not
that awful kind of depilitatingequatorial humidity that really
knocks you sideways.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
No.
So anyway, so a couple of thingsthat happened to me in the last
week or so which disturbed meand it made me think about the
safety of women.
And the first thing thathappened was I got into the lift
(02:16):
in our building.
Now let's remember here that I'ma woman of a certain age, you
know, I'm well over 50.
So it's not like I'm somenubile, you know, 20-year-old
standing there in a short pairof shorts.
There's anything wrong withthat, but you would expect that
sort of person to have more of areaction to them.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
No, um I mean I find you very striking, you know.
Thank you.
Which is which is which whichagain I hope is not a a bad
thing, you know, when you whenyou decide to striking is
striking is something.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Look, I'm just an I'm just a normal woman, but I'm
not young, is my point.
I'm just a normal woman.
So I get into the lift.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
I'm biased as well.
SPEAKER_00 (02:53):
Thank you.
I get into the lift and a mangets in with me, an older man,
probably late 60s, early 70s,and he looked at me and he said,
Well, gee, I hope the liftbreaks down.
And I said, Ah.
And he said, although I'dprobably need a manual to work
out what to do, it's been solong.
(03:16):
And then we got out of the liftand he said, Oh, I had a rape
whistle once, but when I blewit, it didn't work.
Anyway, so this is this sort ofyou know, male whatever you want
to call it, is pretty common,but it's more my reaction or
(03:37):
lack of it that struck me in theensuing days.
Because you you would probablydescribe me as a fairly
forthright person, wouldn't you,David?
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And by the way, I've heard thatstory before, so that's that's
not the first time I've heardthat.
And uh and and in the retelling,it just makes me wince and
recoil and flare up.
Rape whistle?
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
What the f anyway, so I'm not a I am not a retiring
violet, I'm I'm quite aforthright person.
And yet I smiled at him, sort ofhalf, I don't know, sort of gave
a little half laugh and thenwalked away.
(04:23):
I didn't push back, I didn'tmake a joke of him, I didn't say
anything smart or witty, Ididn't diminish him, I did
nothing.
I just walked away, and so Iguess he then would have
thought, well, that went well,that interaction in the lift
(04:43):
with the curly haired woman.
So then the next thing thathappened is yesterday I was
coming home from the city on thebus and a kerfuffle ensued.
I was on the top deck of thebus.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Big yellow beeline bus.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And this kerfuffle ensued downstairs, and there was
a male voice very loud, veryviolent, using terrible
language, and throwing things.
There was like crash, bang,throwing things around the bus.
Anyway, so we all, the otherpassengers, we all began looking
(05:18):
at each other, and it wasgetting near my stop.
And another woman looked at meand she came over and she sat
next to me and she said, I meantto get off here, but I'm too
scared to get off.
He's at the bottom of thestairs.
And then we turned around, andthere were two women that could
look down the stairs, and Isaid, Where is he?
And they said, He's right justat the bottom of the stairs,
(05:39):
throwing things.
And um, so then we sort of satthere and we thought, Well, you
know, and she was shaking thiswoman.
She said, I can't stand beingaround this, I hate it.
So God knows, you know, whatthat was doing to her nervous
system.
And then we sort of got near thestop and some men stood up and I
said to the men, Can you pleasego first?
(06:01):
Can you go first?
And we held a hand and I said,I'll go after them and you come
with me.
Anyway, this we went down thisvery narrow little, you know,
top deck to the bottom deck.
And by the time we got to thebottom of the stairs, he'd got
off the bus.
But there was sort of detritus,there was sort of things had
been thrown about the bus.
It was really strange.
Anyway, I got off and she saidto Oh God, that was horrible.
(06:25):
I hated that, I hate beingaround that.
And I said, I know it wasterrible.
We sort of gave each other ahug, sort of like we've been in
a war zone, and we're only in DYand you know, Sydney, nice safe
Sydney, and then I walked awayand I thought, what are we meant
to do?
How are we meant to behave?
How are we meant to respond?
(06:47):
How do we push back?
And is this current environmentwhere men feel entitled to say
sexual things to a woman afterbeing in her company from a for
about, I don't know, threeseconds.
And I don't know, maybe he washaving a psychotic episode.
(07:09):
I'm gonna put my money on thefact that he was using ice,
which makes people reallyaggressive.
This male aggression is it'sreally awful, and I feel quite
powerless in the face of it,David.
Anything to say on that?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Look, so much, but I thought I'd just let you um sort
of in in the retelling, that wasgripping.
Did did the bus slow down atall?
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
It was a female bus driver as well.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Right, right.
So when you were aware of thekafuffle and things, the bus
driver didn't stop the bus.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
No, the bus driver and someone said she's probably
calling the DY police, which Iimagine is what she was doing.
She would have been calling thelocal police.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but no, the bus just washeading towards the bus stop.
And then I thought I don't wantto get off one stop later
because I was in a hurry and Iwanted to get home.
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
But what yeah.
I mean look, my first questionis how have you answered it?
You know, why do you think?
You know?
Why do I think what?
I've seen you go toe-to-toe withpeople when you feel that some
important rule has beentransgressed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah, as I said, I'm not I'm not incapable of pushing
back.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
That's right.
You took on a bunch of um uhboys on the on the front stairs
of of this place.
Have you told that story?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Oh, the boys that were to having swearing in and
they'd got into a fight withsome other man.
It's pretty violent in thequadrangle.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Exactly.
And that but and and then hestrode up to them and pointed to
the ringleader of one of themand shut him down.
You know, you are not going tosay anything racist.
You know, you better not be thisbetter not be, you know, a
racist.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
I told the girls there were there were these,
those 14 poor 14-year-old girlshanging around in the background
as well.
I said, just go home.
Just this is not a goodenvironment, just go home.
And then another man came and hesaid of the police being called
because it was this bigkerfuffle.
And I said, I don't know.
And he sat with me, and that andthen when David arrived, he
said, I'm going now.
I wanted to make sure you wereokay.
(09:13):
So he was he was nice in makingsure I was always I never felt
worried about that.
I'm not frightened of a bunch of14-year-olds.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Okay, okay, so you know that's what you're capable
of in those kind of dangeroussituations.
You can do that, but when youIt's not dangerous, though,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Okay.
And that's the point.
In a lift.
In a lift, in a lift, you'revulnerable.
You're vulnerable on a on a buswith bus with somebody who's
who's violent, you'revulnerable.
Um, and I think I guess whathappens is you just go into the
sort of a survival mode.
I didn't feel frightened of theguy in the lift.
(09:50):
I was immediately appalled, butjust my responsiveness was just
when I look back, was just sortof I did nothing.
It was sort of pathetic.
And and and I guess I'm I'm alsoreading Clown Town, which is the
book that's been written aboutAndrew Tate.
I don't know if listeners areaware of who Andrew Tate is, but
(10:12):
he was a I was gonna go and getthe book.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Look, let's just call him an influencer.
I mean, he's uh he's look, I Ican't speak with great authority
about Andrew Tate becausewhenever I s smell the presence
of that person, I walk in theopposite direction.
Have done for a long time.
But from what I know, he servedtime in prison in a European
country, and I've uh it can't beis it Bulgaria um or Romania?
(10:38):
I think it's Romania.
Um he has been involved in thetrafficking of women, and that
is the that is the the chargeupon which he was imprisoned.
But his the damage that he doesthrough his influencer activity,
I can't even tell you you knowwhich platform he's you know
most of the.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
Well he's on, he's he's he's absolute he was
absolutely huge.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Misogynist, you know, and taughtmen how to be duplicitous and
play psychological actions toessentially emotionally enslave
their women.
And I think that the greatestachievement is that you could
get a woman to prostituteherself and pay you the money
for it.
You know, it's it's like areally vile stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Uh but his his his his premise, because I'm halfway
through the book, is that heruns this or he ran this thing
called the war room, and menwould come there and physically
fight each other.
And the whole thing is men haveto learn to be physically
violent.
Like violence is the only wayyou're going to have an impact
(11:41):
in the world, and your value isassessed by how many expensive
watches, fast cars, and girls inbikinis you have.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
I think the power of the message is not just that you
get to have this stuff, but it'ssomehow packaged up in, you
know, we give you the license tobe true to your nature.
So that becomes the the hero'sjourney.
You know, I'm going to be trueto my nature.
It is my nature to dominateothers, and I am going to be
expert in doing that.
You know, it's vile.
(12:15):
The other reason why I can'tabore Michael sorry, Michael
Tate, Andrew Tate, is he it isso unintelligent.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
The people who are consuming it, and even the mat I
think are they, yes, are theyactually unintelligent or are
they desperate?
Because we know we've got theincels following him, so incels
are the involuntary celibate.
But the thing about it is thatthe underlying message is that
women have it easy because allyou have to do is be pretty.
(12:45):
Men don't have it easy becausethey have to acquire wealth and
power in the world, whereaswomen have it easy, and that men
ultimately have the right to dowith women what they want.
Now he is a very, very popularinfluencer, he's massive where
he was.
He doesn't believe in mentalhealth issues.
(13:06):
All he believes in is that menhave to give him money, the
messages are just really weird.
He comes from a really weirdbackground and a really weird
father who had the same sort ofpsychopathic, grandiose notion
of himself.
The thing about Andrew Tate,he's not even good looking.
Like, oh my god, he's awful.
Anyway, I think he was a boxeror something in his early days.
(13:28):
Anyway, a fighter of some kind.
So we've got a fight, but thismisogynistic message is common
and it's been picked up by otherinfluences, and the message is
still in 2025 that women areproperty, right?
(13:51):
And you can say and do what youwant with them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
Yeah.
So and to be your best self, youactually, you know, you indulge
in doing that.
So that's how it cops into thepersonal development movement,
you know, young men who want tobe the best that they can be.
So, so you know supportiveAndrew Tate says, Yes, it's so
hard for you boys, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
But come with me and learn to fight properly and make
money and then turn your turnyour girlfriends into
prostitutes, and you can dowhatever you want.
And we've got on the other sideof that, we've got the whole
tradwive movement.
And the tradwivement is there'swow, like just wow, where the
man is the head of the familyand she never makes a decision
(14:38):
without conferring with himfirst.
There's even some, I think it'sPete Hedsteth from the States
who's Secretary of War who saidthat women don't need to have
the right to vote because theyhave to vote the way the husband
votes.
Um so the woman stays home,takes care of the family,
accedes to her husband'srequest, never ever withholds
(15:00):
sex from him, so he can demandsex wherever he wants, never
pushes back, cooks nice meals,is compliant, and the man
therefore takes care of her.
And you if you look at AndrewTate, he would absolutely agree
with that framework.
SPEAKER_01 (15:15):
That's right, and they'll cherry-pick history and
they'll basically build theargument that it is our natures
to work in ways that harmonizesthis dynamic.
So, again, it's personaldevelopment um in its in its um
stickiness, you know, a lot ofpeople looking to themselves
wanting to be better.
And this is a way where you getsort of the dopamine hit of
(15:37):
power over other people, andsome people are worse on that,
worse with that than others.
But this was the culture of thegroup that you saw with the
fracker outside the flash.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
100%.
They had that absolute I'm incharge.
There was a lot of sort of sortof pointing to their groins and
hip thrusting, and I won't usethe language that they use
because I can't on the podcast,but it was very violent.
And come and get me, and I'lltake you on.
And the girls were sort oftwittering around them.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
And you spoke up in that environment.
So, what was different in thelib?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
I told you before.
Well, I didn't feel unsafe.
Yeah, yeah.
I was in a I was in a big publicenvironment.
I didn't feel unsafe.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
I did feel unsafe in the lib.
Well, I didn't feel unsafe, ordid I?
Yeah, maybe I didn't.
I just think I was blindsided.
I was so surprised that someonewould make a sexual comment to
me so quickly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Was it was it was it because he was old?
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
That what?
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
I mean, you described him as an older man,
and there's something evenslightly insulting, you know, as
if he'd really be punching abovehis weight if he was older,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
The kids outside the building were young.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
Yeah.
Much younger than my ownchildren.
I felt perfectly in my rights tosay something to them.
Plus, that was in a publicplace, it was fine.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Could it have been something to do with, you know,
what has been ingrained in usabout respecting the older
generation?
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
Absolutely not.
Nothing to do with it.
Okay.
It's not that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You didn't humiliate him though when you I didn't do
anything.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
And that's that is my point.
I didn't do anything.
Me, well versed in criticalthinking, understands the way
the brain works, you know, writebooks on women making good
decisions, and yet I literallyjust stood there.
And to I I bring it, I talkabout that because in a lot of
(17:32):
rape cases, what they say umwhen the prosecution, when the
defense comes in to defend theperpetrator, they often say,
Well, the woman did nothing.
She did nothing, she didn'tscream, she didn't do anything,
she didn't say stop, she didabsolutely nothing.
Therefore, she was complicit inthe act.
(17:57):
And that's why the legislationaround this is sort of changing,
or they're trying to, because weknow that what happens is the
brain goes into fight, flight,and you go into freeze.
You literally, and I reckon in avery small way, I went into
freeze.
My brain went, I I don't knowwhat to do here.
(18:20):
Um, so I'm just yeah, I just youjust I went into freeze.
In the bus, um a little bit thesame.
I certain did I certainly didn'tgo into fight on the bus because
I it was such an unknown thing Iwas looking at, such an unknown
quantity.
I didn't go into fight and Ididn't go into flight.
(18:42):
I just went into, you know, satthere with this woman who came
and sat next to me, and we bothwent to, well, we better stay on
the bus until he gets off, whichI guess is a version of freeze.
So I think what happens is weget into these dangerous
situations, right, thatblindside us and we simply do
(19:02):
nothing.
And I think probably there is aninstinctive, an instinctive
response in us.
So it's almost like we justbecome sort of like marsupials.
And in the lift, I became like afriendly marsupial.
I guess some part of my brainthought, what if he hits
emergency stop and I'm stuck inhere with the prick, right?
Right?
(19:23):
Um and I think we I think in away we we need to respect that
because society still is sayingto women, you need to stay safe,
you need to not, you know, wearclothing which is alluring and
(19:45):
seductive, you need to not walkacross the park at night, you
need to make sure you're stayingin a well-lit place.
Well, the message is stillaround women trying to preserve
themselves as opposed to how howabout men start just not making
inappropriate sexual commentsand raping women?
How about that as an option?
(20:06):
And yet we're I think we'restill on this trajectory, and
what's going on in Americadoesn't help with this whole,
you know, conservative tradwivething, which of course, as we
know, the church saying that menare in charge, the domestic
violence in those environmentsis off the scale because men
feel they can do anything.
You know, it's reallyproblematic and it really,
really pissed me off.
(20:27):
The whole thing really pissed meoff because I thought, what why
am I now in 2025, why am I stillhaving to deal with this shit?
So that's what I wanted to talkabout today.
And I think it's reallyimportant that for us to know
that if you are in a situationlike that, and you don't come
(20:52):
back with the witty repartee,that you don't come back with
the you know the the brilliantcomeback comment.
If you do just stand there likea big dork and do nothing, well
that's perfectly fine.
Because in some way that's uswomen just trying to survive.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
If you don't return serve, then there's no game.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
You don't have that luxury on the bus when someone's
actively at you, but and youdon't have that luxury if you're
being sexually assaulted.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
You would like to think you would, you know, you
would like to think that youwould be able to call out, cry,
say no, do something, and yet sooften we're just pushed into
this position where we go intosurvival mode.
So I guess the point is what weneed is more men to say to other
men, why don't you shut the fuckup and stop saying that it's not
funny?
(21:46):
Like that's not funny, right?
Yeah, but how many men do inyour experience, or how many men
just let it go through to thekeeper?
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
What do you want me well you want me to give you a
percentage?
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Pass my phone, please.
No, not percentages, justanecdotal evidence to be fine.
I'm a bit of an outlier.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
You know, in some groups when I pipe up, there's a
lot of g blokes around the tablewho are probably thinking, yeah,
I should have said that.
So maybe I'm just a little bitearlier than the others.
But no, I do know men of the spyou know, uh males of our
species who are, by all intentsand purposes, part of our
(22:25):
community who would subscribe tobelief systems and you know
narratives around male dominanceover women to some degree.
You know, I mean there's nothingso extreme as, you know, trad
wives or um none of us wouldtolerate domestic abuse.
Um so you know, it's a i I guessa different level on the
(22:47):
spectrum, you know, with thewith the groups of men that I
travel with.
But yeah, look, I do you know, Idefinitely know it as a cultural
thing where that you knowthere's the added level of we're
not supposed to be joking aboutthis sort of thing.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink aswell.
So, you know, it's uh it's thesource of a of a whole lot of
(23:08):
dopamine for unintellig nounemotionally intelligent.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Yeah, I think we've got to be really, really careful
about saying it's a madrimintelligence because there's
plenty of men.
I mean, just look at the medicalindustry here, the number of
surgeons that are accused ofshocking misogynistic behaviour,
and they're highly intelligent.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
Yeah, sorry.
It's cultural.
I tried to insert the wordemotionally in front of the
intelligence.
You were too slow.
Okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Um, anyway, it's really annoying, and I think we
women have to understand thatthe change is coming, but it's
really slow.
And for every one of you outthere that's listening, have a
conversation with the men inyour lives and just say it has
to come from you.
(23:58):
You are the beginning of thechange in the narrative, not us.
And just be careful who we votefor.
You know, if we're going to votein politicians that believe in
some weird Christian doctrinewhere men are at the head of the
households and women have to becompliant.
I mean, wow, where is that goingto hit us?
You know, the wholeanti-abortion thing, the whole
(24:20):
thing is just so anti-women.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
To think that you can have control over any other
demographic, you know, this ideathat I believe in freedom, but
not for everybody.
Well, then you don't believe infreedom.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Oh, we have to have I mean we've got control over
our children, right?
We have to have control over ourchildren.
I guess collaboration, though.
What when you're an adult, whenyour children are small, you've
got full control over them.
But that which put brings me tomen and women that men
infantilize women by trying tohave control over them.
It's like they're children.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Yeah, I don't know.
I would say that as early aspossible, we collaborated with
our children.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
We're magnificent parents, there's no two ways
about it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
You'd start with collaborating on the unimportant
stuff like what would you liketo have for dinner tonight?
You know, then you'd graduate towhere shall we have a holiday
this year.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
But that's when they're older, when they're
little, they're fully under yourcontrol.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
I'm talking about right from the start.
There's a gradient.
You know, right from the start,you collaborate with your
children around the game youplay and how long you play it
for.
Don't you?
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
Yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Well, you sound disappointed.
I don't know.
I'm agreeing with you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Oh, are you good?
It's always good to agree withme.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, look, I'm agreeing with you, and I'm
saying that there's theopportunity for collaboration
with anything, anyone, at anyage, there's an opportunity to
give and take.
And this is the trouble with theabsolutionist divestment of
power rankings between men andwomen is that it's fixed, and
it's just that's not life.
And so I think that, you know,yes, if the if the if the
(26:01):
neurosurgeons that are, youknow, manhandling their just
normal surgeons.
Where'd you get neurosurgeon?
Just surgeons.
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
I was trying to think of it's actually probably
ortho, it's probablyorthopedics, let's face it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So yes, it's they're the most annoying.
It's not that kind ofintelligence, and I guess we can
call it emotional intelligence,but you know, perhaps that
capacity to be able tocollaborate with other people
and share power with the colour.
It's cultural, isn't it?
It's cultural.
It's that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
And we've got the culture has to be changed, but
it has to start with men.
I'm sick of hearing what I haveto do differently.
You know, my darling daughterwalks home, she's in her late
20s now, walks home.
She's a lawyer, so she's nodummy.
She rings me on the way home.
We talk about how many peopleare on the street and if there's
lights.
I mean, it's terrible.
(26:52):
Right?
No, it look, it is terrible.
Yeah, but you never I mean, Iwon't now walk the track along
the coast from DY to theheadland, from DY to Kilka on my
own.
I'm still.
And you can, but you can.
You can just except for yourknees.
Because your knees are shot.
Thanks.
I could actually walk it quickerthan you.
(27:14):
It's not safe for me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
And that's not right.
Yeah.
Look, uh, and w what can I doother than accompany you with my
sore knees?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
But not quick enough.
You're not quick enough.
What?
No, you're slow.
You are you're really slow.
In fact, if you had to defendme, I did think about ringing
you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
If I had I thought about ringing you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
I thought when I was on the bus I should ring David
and see if he can make it out ofthe unit in time to meet the
bus, but then I thought on yourbad knees hobbling down the
stairs.
Oh, come on.
Hobbling down the stairs, it'dbe a disappointing outcome.
You're you're awful, Muriel.
I know I am awful.
So that's all I wanted to say.
It's been a really annoyingexperience for me.
Not your knees.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
Okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
Um I think uh all men, it's up to you.
Not up to us, it's up to you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
We've had enough.
SPEAKER_01 (28:08):
All right.
It's up to you.
Challenge accepted.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
You and your mates.
Scratch my back for a moment.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
No.
I won't.
What?
What am I, a trad wife?
How?
Would you like me to cook yousome brownies tonight?
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
Listen, listen, Miss Queen of Primary Attribution
Error.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
I've been doing a lot of cooking lately.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I know, you're not you're not included.
You're not included in the inthe horror story, David.
You're an exception to thehorror story.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
But I am sad that you can't walk along the beach.
It's really sad.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Although the last time I did them, the worst thing
that happened to me was I gotattacked by a magpie.
I got bombed by a magpie.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
And I bet it was a male.
I don't know what it wasbecause.
No, it's actually a female ofthe species.
Because it's her nature.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Do you know in Australia apart from the snakes
and the spiders and just thevariety of deadly insects like
the iragangi up in northernQueensland, it's half the size
of your jellyfish, not aninsect.
Yeah, but it it's half the sizeof your little finger, and if
you get bitten by it, apparentlyyou beg to die.
We have some horrendous things.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
It's very painful, but now you're going to complain
about the magpies.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah, apart from the horrendous things that can kill
us every time we walk out.
I was doing the walk around theheadland, and this thing bashed
me on the back of the head.
I turned around and it was amagpie.
And once they start dive bombingyou, they're relentless.
And I was running and screaming.
And then this, these, these, itis funny.
(29:38):
And then these men came out ofthis that they were builders and
they came out of this house andsaid, Are you all right?
Are you okay?
And I said, No, this bird isdive bombing me.
And the guy got a hat and sortof made it go away, and that was
it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
And it was really embarrassing.
I'm so glad you told that storythough.
Because as you told that story,I was thinking about what could
you expect?
You know, two guys.
Came out and they were reallynice.
And they were really nice.
Because most people are.
And most men really are.
You know, catch them on a badday.
Some are worse than others, andsome people are just fairly
dreadful all the time.
And on that note, most men whocame up to you downstairs.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
But I do think I had to corral them.
I had to say to them you need togo down the steps first.
Yeah.
Anyway, on that note, let's notgive ourselves a hard time about
the fact that we sort of go intofreeze in these situations.
We're doing the best we can tosurvive.
And as I just said, we are nowpassing the bat on to men.
(30:42):
You guys need to sort it.
So on that note, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
(31:05):
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
(31:27):
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
(31:48):
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women.
(32:10):
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, I'm in a cabin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my at all.
I don't think I did go throughsome doctors to find it.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from thenorthern beaches of Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia, whereit's about to get to 38 degrees
(01:09):
Celsius, which is a heat wave.
So there's all these thingsabout not lighting fires and
staying hydrated and taking careof the elderly and making sure
that you're okay and keeping theair conditioning on because it's
stinking, stinking hot.
And out the western suburbs ofSydney, it's going to be in the
(01:30):
low forties.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
Is it still going to get there?
Is it going to get that hot?
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
I don't know.
That's what they say.
Yeah.
Hello, David.
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
Hello there.
Yeah, I was I was out in it thismorning and I was uh surprised
how temperate it felt.
And maybe it's just becausewe're next to the ocean and it's
dry heat.
It's air that's been movingacross the country, so it's not
that awful kind of depilitatingequatorial humidity that really
knocks you sideways.
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
No.
So anyway, so a couple of thingsthat happened to me in the last
week or so which disturbed meand it made me think about the
safety of women.
And the first thing thathappened was I got into the lift
(02:16):
in our building.
Now let's remember here that I'ma woman of a certain age, you
know, I'm well over 50.
So it's not like I'm somenubile, you know, 20-year-old
standing there in a short pairof shorts.
There's anything wrong withthat, but you would expect that
sort of person to have more of areaction to them.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
No, um I mean I find you very striking, you know.
Thank you.
Which is which is which whichagain I hope is not a a bad
thing, you know, when you whenyou decide to striking is
striking is something.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Look, I'm just an I'm just a normal woman, but I'm
not young, is my point.
I'm just a normal woman.
So I get into the lift.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
I'm biased as well.
SPEAKER_00 (02:53):
Thank you.
I get into the lift and a mangets in with me, an older man,
probably late 60s, early 70s,and he looked at me and he said,
Well, gee, I hope the liftbreaks down.
And I said, Ah.
And he said, although I'dprobably need a manual to work
out what to do, it's been solong.
(03:16):
And then we got out of the liftand he said, Oh, I had a rape
whistle once, but when I blewit, it didn't work.
Anyway, so this is this sort ofyou know, male whatever you want
to call it, is pretty common,but it's more my reaction or
(03:37):
lack of it that struck me in theensuing days.
Because you you would probablydescribe me as a fairly
forthright person, wouldn't you,David?
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And by the way, I've heard thatstory before, so that's that's
not the first time I've heardthat.
And uh and and in the retelling,it just makes me wince and
recoil and flare up.
Rape whistle?
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
What the f anyway, so I'm not a I am not a retiring
violet, I'm I'm quite aforthright person.
And yet I smiled at him, sort ofhalf, I don't know, sort of gave
a little half laugh and thenwalked away.
(04:23):
I didn't push back, I didn'tmake a joke of him, I didn't say
anything smart or witty, Ididn't diminish him, I did
nothing.
I just walked away, and so Iguess he then would have
thought, well, that went well,that interaction in the lift
(04:43):
with the curly haired woman.
So then the next thing thathappened is yesterday I was
coming home from the city on thebus and a kerfuffle ensued.
I was on the top deck of thebus.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Big yellow beeline bus.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And this kerfuffle ensued downstairs, and there was
a male voice very loud, veryviolent, using terrible
language, and throwing things.
There was like crash, bang,throwing things around the bus.
Anyway, so we all, the otherpassengers, we all began looking
(05:18):
at each other, and it wasgetting near my stop.
And another woman looked at meand she came over and she sat
next to me and she said, I meantto get off here, but I'm too
scared to get off.
He's at the bottom of thestairs.
And then we turned around, andthere were two women that could
look down the stairs, and Isaid, Where is he?
And they said, He's right justat the bottom of the stairs,
(05:39):
throwing things.
And um, so then we sort of satthere and we thought, Well, you
know, and she was shaking thiswoman.
She said, I can't stand beingaround this, I hate it.
So God knows, you know, whatthat was doing to her nervous
system.
And then we sort of got near thestop and some men stood up and I
said to the men, Can you pleasego first?
(06:01):
Can you go first?
And we held a hand and I said,I'll go after them and you come
with me.
Anyway, this we went down thisvery narrow little, you know,
top deck to the bottom deck.
And by the time we got to thebottom of the stairs, he'd got
off the bus.
But there was sort of detritus,there was sort of things had
been thrown about the bus.
It was really strange.
Anyway, I got off and she saidto Oh God, that was horrible.
(06:25):
I hated that, I hate beingaround that.
And I said, I know it wasterrible.
We sort of gave each other ahug, sort of like we've been in
a war zone, and we're only in DYand you know, Sydney, nice safe
Sydney, and then I walked awayand I thought, what are we meant
to do?
How are we meant to behave?
How are we meant to respond?
(06:47):
How do we push back?
And is this current environmentwhere men feel entitled to say
sexual things to a woman afterbeing in her company from a for
about, I don't know, threeseconds.
And I don't know, maybe he washaving a psychotic episode.
(07:09):
I'm gonna put my money on thefact that he was using ice,
which makes people reallyaggressive.
This male aggression is it'sreally awful, and I feel quite
powerless in the face of it,David.
Anything to say on that?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Look, so much, but I thought I'd just let you um sort
of in in the retelling, that wasgripping.
Did did the bus slow down atall?
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
It was a female bus driver as well.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Right, right.
So when you were aware of thekafuffle and things, the bus
driver didn't stop the bus.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
No, the bus driver and someone said she's probably
calling the DY police, which Iimagine is what she was doing.
She would have been calling thelocal police.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but no, the bus just washeading towards the bus stop.
And then I thought I don't wantto get off one stop later
because I was in a hurry and Iwanted to get home.
SPEAKER_01 (07:59):
But what yeah.
I mean look, my first questionis how have you answered it?
You know, why do you think?
You know?
Why do I think what?
I've seen you go toe-to-toe withpeople when you feel that some
important rule has beentransgressed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
Yeah, as I said, I'm not I'm not incapable of pushing
back.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
That's right.
You took on a bunch of um uhboys on the on the front stairs
of of this place.
Have you told that story?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Oh, the boys that were to having swearing in and
they'd got into a fight withsome other man.
It's pretty violent in thequadrangle.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Exactly.
And that but and and then hestrode up to them and pointed to
the ringleader of one of themand shut him down.
You know, you are not going tosay anything racist.
You know, you better not be thisbetter not be, you know, a
racist.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
I told the girls there were there were these,
those 14 poor 14-year-old girlshanging around in the background
as well.
I said, just go home.
Just this is not a goodenvironment, just go home.
And then another man came and hesaid of the police being called
because it was this bigkerfuffle.
And I said, I don't know.
And he sat with me, and that andthen when David arrived, he
said, I'm going now.
I wanted to make sure you wereokay.
(09:13):
So he was he was nice in makingsure I was always I never felt
worried about that.
I'm not frightened of a bunch of14-year-olds.
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
Okay, okay, so you know that's what you're capable
of in those kind of dangeroussituations.
You can do that, but when youIt's not dangerous, though,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Okay.
And that's the point.
In a lift.
In a lift, in a lift, you'revulnerable.
You're vulnerable on a on a buswith bus with somebody who's
who's violent, you'revulnerable.
Um, and I think I guess whathappens is you just go into the
sort of a survival mode.
I didn't feel frightened of theguy in the lift.
(09:50):
I was immediately appalled, butjust my responsiveness was just
when I look back, was just sortof I did nothing.
It was sort of pathetic.
And and and I guess I'm I'm alsoreading Clown Town, which is the
book that's been written aboutAndrew Tate.
I don't know if listeners areaware of who Andrew Tate is, but
(10:12):
he was a I was gonna go and getthe book.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Look, let's just call him an influencer.
I mean, he's uh he's look, I Ican't speak with great authority
about Andrew Tate becausewhenever I s smell the presence
of that person, I walk in theopposite direction.
Have done for a long time.
But from what I know, he servedtime in prison in a European
country, and I've uh it can't beis it Bulgaria um or Romania?
(10:38):
I think it's Romania.
Um he has been involved in thetrafficking of women, and that
is the that is the the chargeupon which he was imprisoned.
But his the damage that he doesthrough his influencer activity,
I can't even tell you you knowwhich platform he's you know
most of the.
SPEAKER_00 (10:56):
Well he's on, he's he's he's absolute he was
absolutely huge.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Misogynist, you know, and taughtmen how to be duplicitous and
play psychological actions toessentially emotionally enslave
their women.
And I think that the greatestachievement is that you could
get a woman to prostituteherself and pay you the money
for it.
You know, it's it's like areally vile stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Uh but his his his his premise, because I'm halfway
through the book, is that heruns this or he ran this thing
called the war room, and menwould come there and physically
fight each other.
And the whole thing is men haveto learn to be physically
violent.
Like violence is the only wayyou're going to have an impact
(11:41):
in the world, and your value isassessed by how many expensive
watches, fast cars, and girls inbikinis you have.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
I think the power of the message is not just that you
get to have this stuff, but it'ssomehow packaged up in, you
know, we give you the license tobe true to your nature.
So that becomes the the hero'sjourney.
You know, I'm going to be trueto my nature.
It is my nature to dominateothers, and I am going to be
expert in doing that.
You know, it's vile.
(12:15):
The other reason why I can'tabore Michael sorry, Michael
Tate, Andrew Tate, is he it isso unintelligent.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
The people who are consuming it, and even the mat I
think are they, yes, are theyactually unintelligent or are
they desperate?
Because we know we've got theincels following him, so incels
are the involuntary celibate.
But the thing about it is thatthe underlying message is that
women have it easy because allyou have to do is be pretty.
(12:45):
Men don't have it easy becausethey have to acquire wealth and
power in the world, whereaswomen have it easy, and that men
ultimately have the right to dowith women what they want.
Now he is a very, very popularinfluencer, he's massive where
he was.
He doesn't believe in mentalhealth issues.
(13:06):
All he believes in is that menhave to give him money, the
messages are just really weird.
He comes from a really weirdbackground and a really weird
father who had the same sort ofpsychopathic, grandiose notion
of himself.
The thing about Andrew Tate,he's not even good looking.
Like, oh my god, he's awful.
Anyway, I think he was a boxeror something in his early days.
(13:28):
Anyway, a fighter of some kind.
So we've got a fight, but thismisogynistic message is common
and it's been picked up by otherinfluences, and the message is
still in 2025 that women areproperty, right?
(13:51):
And you can say and do what youwant with them.
SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
Yeah.
So and to be your best self, youactually, you know, you indulge
in doing that.
So that's how it cops into thepersonal development movement,
you know, young men who want tobe the best that they can be.
So, so you know supportiveAndrew Tate says, Yes, it's so
hard for you boys, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
But come with me and learn to fight properly and make
money and then turn your turnyour girlfriends into
prostitutes, and you can dowhatever you want.
And we've got on the other sideof that, we've got the whole
tradwive movement.
And the tradwivement is there'swow, like just wow, where the
man is the head of the familyand she never makes a decision
(14:38):
without conferring with himfirst.
There's even some, I think it'sPete Hedsteth from the States
who's Secretary of War who saidthat women don't need to have
the right to vote because theyhave to vote the way the husband
votes.
Um so the woman stays home,takes care of the family,
accedes to her husband'srequest, never ever withholds
(15:00):
sex from him, so he can demandsex wherever he wants, never
pushes back, cooks nice meals,is compliant, and the man
therefore takes care of her.
And you if you look at AndrewTate, he would absolutely agree
with that framework.
SPEAKER_01 (15:15):
That's right, and they'll cherry-pick history and
they'll basically build theargument that it is our natures
to work in ways that harmonizesthis dynamic.
So, again, it's personaldevelopment um in its in its um
stickiness, you know, a lot ofpeople looking to themselves
wanting to be better.
And this is a way where you getsort of the dopamine hit of
(15:37):
power over other people, andsome people are worse on that,
worse with that than others.
But this was the culture of thegroup that you saw with the
fracker outside the flash.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
100%.
They had that absolute I'm incharge.
There was a lot of sort of sortof pointing to their groins and
hip thrusting, and I won't usethe language that they use
because I can't on the podcast,but it was very violent.
And come and get me, and I'lltake you on.
And the girls were sort oftwittering around them.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
And you spoke up in that environment.
So, what was different in thelib?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
I told you before.
Well, I didn't feel unsafe.
Yeah, yeah.
I was in a I was in a big publicenvironment.
I didn't feel unsafe.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
I did feel unsafe in the lib.
Well, I didn't feel unsafe, ordid I?
Yeah, maybe I didn't.
I just think I was blindsided.
I was so surprised that someonewould make a sexual comment to
me so quickly.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Was it was it was it because he was old?
SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
That what?
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
I mean, you described him as an older man,
and there's something evenslightly insulting, you know, as
if he'd really be punching abovehis weight if he was older,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
The kids outside the building were young.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
Yeah.
Much younger than my ownchildren.
I felt perfectly in my rights tosay something to them.
Plus, that was in a publicplace, it was fine.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Could it have been something to do with, you know,
what has been ingrained in usabout respecting the older
generation?
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
Absolutely not.
Nothing to do with it.
Okay.
It's not that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You didn't humiliate him though when you I didn't do
anything.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
And that's that is my point.
I didn't do anything.
Me, well versed in criticalthinking, understands the way
the brain works, you know, writebooks on women making good
decisions, and yet I literallyjust stood there.
And to I I bring it, I talkabout that because in a lot of
(17:32):
rape cases, what they say umwhen the prosecution, when the
defense comes in to defend theperpetrator, they often say,
Well, the woman did nothing.
She did nothing, she didn'tscream, she didn't do anything,
she didn't say stop, she didabsolutely nothing.
Therefore, she was complicit inthe act.
(17:57):
And that's why the legislationaround this is sort of changing,
or they're trying to, because weknow that what happens is the
brain goes into fight, flight,and you go into freeze.
You literally, and I reckon in avery small way, I went into
freeze.
My brain went, I I don't knowwhat to do here.
(18:20):
Um, so I'm just yeah, I just youjust I went into freeze.
In the bus, um a little bit thesame.
I certain did I certainly didn'tgo into fight on the bus because
I it was such an unknown thing Iwas looking at, such an unknown
quantity.
I didn't go into fight and Ididn't go into flight.
(18:42):
I just went into, you know, satthere with this woman who came
and sat next to me, and we bothwent to, well, we better stay on
the bus until he gets off, whichI guess is a version of freeze.
So I think what happens is weget into these dangerous
situations, right, thatblindside us and we simply do
(19:02):
nothing.
And I think probably there is aninstinctive, an instinctive
response in us.
So it's almost like we justbecome sort of like marsupials.
And in the lift, I became like afriendly marsupial.
I guess some part of my brainthought, what if he hits
emergency stop and I'm stuck inhere with the prick, right?
Right?
(19:23):
Um and I think we I think in away we we need to respect that
because society still is sayingto women, you need to stay safe,
you need to not, you know, wearclothing which is alluring and
(19:45):
seductive, you need to not walkacross the park at night, you
need to make sure you're stayingin a well-lit place.
Well, the message is stillaround women trying to preserve
themselves as opposed to how howabout men start just not making
inappropriate sexual commentsand raping women?
How about that as an option?
(20:06):
And yet we're I think we'restill on this trajectory, and
what's going on in Americadoesn't help with this whole,
you know, conservative tradwivething, which of course, as we
know, the church saying that menare in charge, the domestic
violence in those environmentsis off the scale because men
feel they can do anything.
You know, it's reallyproblematic and it really,
really pissed me off.
(20:27):
The whole thing really pissed meoff because I thought, what why
am I now in 2025, why am I stillhaving to deal with this shit?
So that's what I wanted to talkabout today.
And I think it's reallyimportant that for us to know
that if you are in a situationlike that, and you don't come
(20:52):
back with the witty repartee,that you don't come back with
the you know the the brilliantcomeback comment.
If you do just stand there likea big dork and do nothing, well
that's perfectly fine.
Because in some way that's uswomen just trying to survive.
SPEAKER_01 (21:11):
If you don't return serve, then there's no game.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
You don't have that luxury on the bus when someone's
actively at you, but and youdon't have that luxury if you're
being sexually assaulted.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
You would like to think you would, you know, you
would like to think that youwould be able to call out, cry,
say no, do something, and yet sooften we're just pushed into
this position where we go intosurvival mode.
So I guess the point is what weneed is more men to say to other
men, why don't you shut the fuckup and stop saying that it's not
funny?
(21:46):
Like that's not funny, right?
Yeah, but how many men do inyour experience, or how many men
just let it go through to thekeeper?
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
What do you want me well you want me to give you a
percentage?
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
Pass my phone, please.
No, not percentages, justanecdotal evidence to be fine.
I'm a bit of an outlier.
SPEAKER_01 (22:04):
You know, in some groups when I pipe up, there's a
lot of g blokes around the tablewho are probably thinking, yeah,
I should have said that.
So maybe I'm just a little bitearlier than the others.
But no, I do know men of the spyou know, uh males of our
species who are, by all intentsand purposes, part of our
(22:25):
community who would subscribe tobelief systems and you know
narratives around male dominanceover women to some degree.
You know, I mean there's nothingso extreme as, you know, trad
wives or um none of us wouldtolerate domestic abuse.
Um so you know, it's a i I guessa different level on the
(22:47):
spectrum, you know, with thewith the groups of men that I
travel with.
But yeah, look, I do you know, Idefinitely know it as a cultural
thing where that you knowthere's the added level of we're
not supposed to be joking aboutthis sort of thing.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink aswell.
So, you know, it's uh it's thesource of a of a whole lot of
(23:08):
dopamine for unintellig nounemotionally intelligent.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Yeah, I think we've got to be really, really careful
about saying it's a madrimintelligence because there's
plenty of men.
I mean, just look at the medicalindustry here, the number of
surgeons that are accused ofshocking misogynistic behaviour,
and they're highly intelligent.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
Yeah, sorry.
It's cultural.
I tried to insert the wordemotionally in front of the
intelligence.
You were too slow.
Okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Um, anyway, it's really annoying, and I think we
women have to understand thatthe change is coming, but it's
really slow.
And for every one of you outthere that's listening, have a
conversation with the men inyour lives and just say it has
to come from you.
(23:58):
You are the beginning of thechange in the narrative, not us.
And just be careful who we votefor.
You know, if we're going to votein politicians that believe in
some weird Christian doctrinewhere men are at the head of the
households and women have to becompliant.
I mean, wow, where is that goingto hit us?
You know, the wholeanti-abortion thing, the whole
(24:20):
thing is just so anti-women.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
To think that you can have control over any other
demographic, you know, this ideathat I believe in freedom, but
not for everybody.
Well, then you don't believe infreedom.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
Oh, we have to have I mean we've got control over
our children, right?
We have to have control over ourchildren.
I guess collaboration, though.
What when you're an adult, whenyour children are small, you've
got full control over them.
But that which put brings me tomen and women that men
infantilize women by trying tohave control over them.
It's like they're children.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Yeah, I don't know.
I would say that as early aspossible, we collaborated with
our children.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
We're magnificent parents, there's no two ways
about it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
You'd start with collaborating on the unimportant
stuff like what would you liketo have for dinner tonight?
You know, then you'd graduate towhere shall we have a holiday
this year.
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
But that's when they're older, when they're
little, they're fully under yourcontrol.
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
I'm talking about right from the start.
There's a gradient.
You know, right from the start,you collaborate with your
children around the game youplay and how long you play it
for.
Don't you?
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
Yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Well, you sound disappointed.
I don't know.
I'm agreeing with you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Oh, are you good?
It's always good to agree withme.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, look, I'm agreeing with you, and I'm
saying that there's theopportunity for collaboration
with anything, anyone, at anyage, there's an opportunity to
give and take.
And this is the trouble with theabsolutionist divestment of
power rankings between men andwomen is that it's fixed, and
it's just that's not life.
And so I think that, you know,yes, if the if the if the
(26:01):
neurosurgeons that are, youknow, manhandling their just
normal surgeons.
Where'd you get neurosurgeon?
Just surgeons.
SPEAKER_00 (26:08):
I was trying to think of it's actually probably
ortho, it's probablyorthopedics, let's face it.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
So yes, it's they're the most annoying.
It's not that kind ofintelligence, and I guess we can
call it emotional intelligence,but you know, perhaps that
capacity to be able tocollaborate with other people
and share power with the colour.
It's cultural, isn't it?
It's cultural.
It's that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
And we've got the culture has to be changed, but
it has to start with men.
I'm sick of hearing what I haveto do differently.
You know, my darling daughterwalks home, she's in her late
20s now, walks home.
She's a lawyer, so she's nodummy.
She rings me on the way home.
We talk about how many peopleare on the street and if there's
lights.
I mean, it's terrible.
(26:52):
Right?
No, it look, it is terrible.
Yeah, but you never I mean, Iwon't now walk the track along
the coast from DY to theheadland, from DY to Kilka on my
own.
I'm still.
And you can, but you can.
You can just except for yourknees.
Because your knees are shot.
Thanks.
I could actually walk it quickerthan you.
(27:14):
It's not safe for me.
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
And that's not right.
Yeah.
Look, uh, and w what can I doother than accompany you with my
sore knees?
SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
But not quick enough.
You're not quick enough.
What?
No, you're slow.
You are you're really slow.
In fact, if you had to defendme, I did think about ringing
you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
If I had I thought about ringing you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
I thought when I was on the bus I should ring David
and see if he can make it out ofthe unit in time to meet the
bus, but then I thought on yourbad knees hobbling down the
stairs.
Oh, come on.
Hobbling down the stairs, it'dbe a disappointing outcome.
You're you're awful, Muriel.
I know I am awful.
So that's all I wanted to say.
It's been a really annoyingexperience for me.
Not your knees.
SPEAKER_01 (27:57):
Okay, sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
Um I think uh all men, it's up to you.
Not up to us, it's up to you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
We've had enough.
SPEAKER_01 (28:08):
All right.
It's up to you.
Challenge accepted.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
You and your mates.
Scratch my back for a moment.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
No.
I won't.
What?
What am I, a trad wife?
How?
Would you like me to cook yousome brownies tonight?
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
Listen, listen, Miss Queen of Primary Attribution
Error.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
I've been doing a lot of cooking lately.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
I know, you're not you're not included.
You're not included in the inthe horror story, David.
You're an exception to thehorror story.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
But I am sad that you can't walk along the beach.
It's really sad.
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Although the last time I did them, the worst thing
that happened to me was I gotattacked by a magpie.
I got bombed by a magpie.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
And I bet it was a male.
I don't know what it wasbecause.
No, it's actually a female ofthe species.
Because it's her nature.
SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
Do you know in Australia apart from the snakes
and the spiders and just thevariety of deadly insects like
the iragangi up in northernQueensland, it's half the size
of your jellyfish, not aninsect.
Yeah, but it it's half the sizeof your little finger, and if
you get bitten by it, apparentlyyou beg to die.
We have some horrendous things.
SPEAKER_01 (29:15):
It's very painful, but now you're going to complain
about the magpies.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah, apart from the horrendous things that can kill
us every time we walk out.
I was doing the walk around theheadland, and this thing bashed
me on the back of the head.
I turned around and it was amagpie.
And once they start dive bombingyou, they're relentless.
And I was running and screaming.
And then this, these, these, itis funny.
(29:38):
And then these men came out ofthis that they were builders and
they came out of this house andsaid, Are you all right?
Are you okay?
And I said, No, this bird isdive bombing me.
And the guy got a hat and sortof made it go away, and that was
it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
And it was really embarrassing.
I'm so glad you told that storythough.
Because as you told that story,I was thinking about what could
you expect?
You know, two guys.
Came out and they were reallynice.
And they were really nice.
Because most people are.
And most men really are.
You know, catch them on a badday.
Some are worse than others, andsome people are just fairly
dreadful all the time.
And on that note, most men whocame up to you downstairs.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
But I do think I had to corral them.
I had to say to them you need togo down the steps first.
Yeah.
Anyway, on that note, let's notgive ourselves a hard time about
the fact that we sort of go intofreeze in these situations.
We're doing the best we can tosurvive.
And as I just said, we are nowpassing the bat on to men.
(30:42):
You guys need to sort it.
So on that note, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
(31:05):
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
(31:27):
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
(31:48):
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women.
(32:10):
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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