November 3, 2025 • 35 mins
We explore how humour helps us handle stress, anxiety, and life’s clatter without ignoring pain. A rogue bush turkey sparks a deeper look at the body’s laugh response, thought defusion, and why timing and validation matter when using comedy as a coping tool.
• acknowledging Country and setting the scene in Sydney
• the bush turkey saga as a catalyst for laughter
• why some laugh in crisis and others only later
• what laughter does to the diaphragm, hormones and breath
• using humour to defuse anxious thoughts and gain distance
• paradox of approaching fear instead of pushing it away
• validation needs, boundaries and timing with jokes
• practical tools: mechanical laughter, comic voices, silly imagery
• habit-building for resilience and lighter problem solving
• closing reminders on safety, critical thinking and community
And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm in a cabin,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not as I don't think that's afive year.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,Sydney, New South Wales,
(01:06):
Australia.
And it is a perfect What are youlaughing at?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
What are you laughing at?
What am I laughing at?
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Um anything and everything this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
Oh shut up.
Stop being daggy.
Haven't it even started yet?
Oh my god.
All right, don't confirm whatI'm going to be talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Okay, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Please please do go on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Thank you.
So um for all of you that arelooking into a European autumn
and going into a Europeanwinter, we are having a perfect
sunny, gorgeous spring day herein Sydney.
Don't want to brag, but that'sthe reality of it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
You're so mean.
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
So this is what happened this week.
I was at the gym and I was umdoing one of the pre-workout
stretches on the floor, and myfriend Gabby, he's from Brazil,
said to me, um, oh I've hadquite a day.
I could only, I was going to run5k and then I couldn't only run
(02:09):
four because I was so tired.
And um I said, Oh, well thatthat's okay.
You can, you know, work hard inthis session or whatever.
And then she said, Oh, I hadsuch a bad morning.
This um um bush turkey now wehave these things in Sydney um
called bush turkeys, and theyhave recently migrated down from
(02:34):
Queensland.
The bush turkeys.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
But they've recently migrated.
Well they did you I thought theywere always here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Did what you think about it, d how often when you
were growing up did you see, oreven when our kids did kids were
growing up, did you see bushturkeys?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Uh isn't that the availability by the No I don't
think it is.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
There's an example that's not maybe we weren't
wandering around the locationswhere bush turkeys exist.
It's not that there's been amass migration of them from
Queensland and apparently andthey're protected.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, let's protest.
Anyway, they're really I'm soagainst mass migration.
We must we must resist it.
Yeah it's ruining the Australianway of life.
This right this bush turkey massmigration.
SPEAKER_00 (03:11):
That's right down from Queensland.
Anyway, bush turkeys are umthey're really not very
attractive.
They're large, they're they'resort of the size of a what?
What are they the size of?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
Well, like a a turkey.
A turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
They're like they're like a big turkey, and they've
they've got unfortunately thatthey've got heads, they look
like vultures.
They're really unattractive.
Anyway, and they make theseterrible big net nests, and
they're just sort of awful, andthey wander around and they're
just not very pleasant.
Anyway, she said, so anyway,this bush turkey got into my
(03:46):
house.
That's the wrong accent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
Is that is that a Brazilian accent?
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Oh, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait, let me think
about Gabby.
Um, anyway, so this bush turkey,it got into my house and freaked
me out.
So I'm looking at it and it'swandering around inside my
house, which is like a horriblethought um in the first place.
The thought that one of theseenormous turkeys could actually
(04:10):
get into your house.
And then she said, then so Iwent outside and I waited for it
to leave.
I thought that was pretty funny.
She just went outside, she wasso scared of it because it's so
big.
She said, I just went outsideand I waited for it to leave,
and then it didn't leave.
So I went back inside and it wason her bed.
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
Oh, how awful.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
And it had shat itself on her bed anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
I thought that was coming.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
It was on her bed, and she said, and the worst
thing was I had just changed mysheets, everything was clean.
I'd changed my sheets, it wasall beautiful and clean, and
then I look, and there it was onthe bed, and it had shut
everywhere.
Anyway, she started to laugh,and I started to laugh, and we
we laughed so hard at thethought of this horrible thing
(04:59):
on her bed ruining her morning,and then everyone was like, What
are you laughing at?
And then she told them, and thenit was on my bed, she was
yelling Christine, and every itwent everywhere, and it shot on
my bed, and I had that thing,and I couldn't get it out, and
then everyone else was laughing,and um and then she had video of
it, so then we all stopped whatwe were doing and looked at the
(05:21):
video.
It's so horrible.
Anyway, so we we laughed, andand during the session, I every
time I looked at her looked ather, we would start laughing
again, and it just it just mademe think of the different ways
that we deal with life'schallenges, right?
(05:44):
Because you that could happen toyou, right?
And you may not see the funnyside of that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Oh no, you could be quite outraged.
Yeah, I think you you'd be quiteoutraged.
No, I'd laugh a lot.
You would be later.
You would laugh later.
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
Oh, I always laugh later.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
You wouldn't laugh at the time, though.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
No, I'd be terrified at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
I I don't know what to do with these big flapping
things of the brush turkey.
I I I I I don't know, I wouldn'tknow how to get it out, I would
be scared of it.
Um it would cause me all mannerof angst.
But as soon as it was over, itwould it would go into my um
corollary of things that haveamusing things that have
(06:22):
happened to me.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
That's right, your your your your Rollodex of funny
stories.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
My Rollodex of Funny Stories, it would be added, it
would be added that to that,right?
For sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
I know that Rollodex well.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Yeah, so and she's the same, and we we we are still
laughing about it.
I said it's just the funniestthing I'd ever heard, the
thought of this horrible thing,and her too frightened to go
into the house.
So then I thought some somepeople would not see the humour
in that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
And and then I thought about you know, us and
our very close friends and howvery quickly on the back of bad
things that have happened, howwe pretty much go immediately to
black humour and say reallyinappropriate things.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Um of course we can't give you any examples
because they're soinappropriate.
But that's our black humour,isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Very much so, and you know, like with the dog, you
know, like with all that thathappened with the dog.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
The stupid expensive dog.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
The stupid the dog is now the stupid expensive dog,
and we're just laughing aboutand someone said to me today,
has he done it before?
I said, Oh yeah, weekly.
You know, that that dog is amassive consumer of underwear
and socks, which is true.
So we're laughing about it, andthat is our way to laugh about
it.
So then um I thought I thoughtto myself, because it is not
(07:39):
everybody's way um to laugh, uh,I thought how what are the
benefits of it as a copingstrategy?
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
Yeah, because there's been quite a lot of
study done into this.
Um I think people have noticedintuitively they feel better
when they um when they have alaugh.
Um and they're able to cope muchbetter when they're able to to
laugh at adversity.
What's that phrase, you know?
If you don't yeah you have tolaugh, otherwise you'd cry.
Um so so so yeah, there's plentyof anecdotal stuff and and
(08:10):
plenty of intuitive stuff.
But um so you did a bit ofresearch on the the benefits of
humour and indeed just thesimple act of laughing on stress
and anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Which I'd never really thought about because we
just spend such vast periods ofour life doing it.
Yes, right?
It just never occurred to me umthat it is an incredibly um
helpful mechanism to combat umdepression and anxiety and just
(08:44):
to manage life's vagaries,life's up and down, because as
we know, shit happens.
Yeah, and it's gonna keephappening.
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Can I suggest just a a little a little relevance
check at this particular point?
You know, if you must.
Well, I don't know, you can youcan always edit this out, I
guess.
But yeah, just ask ask your youryour listeners to um you know to
uh to think about um let's see,the the last time that they
actually did have to deal withsomething very, very stressful,
(09:13):
you know, be it a a brush turkeyon the bed or or perhaps.
Bush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:19):
I know that they can be called brush or bush, but I
think we're going to call itbush today because it's
confusing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay.
I mean the I think the thecorrect term is brush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
I think it is.
I think it's bush.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Okay.
You're certain about that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
But I sound certain.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
You prefer it, wouldn't you?
I would.
Okay, f so from this pointforward, if ever we mention a
brush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:37):
It's a bush turkey.
Well, and and we named it viceversa.
I think we named it what do wename it?
I think we named it Aloysiciousor something like that.
Her b the one that was on herbed.
Okay, okay.
I think it was having acigarette and a small gin.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Okay, so so sometimes it's something, you
know, transitory and and uh andtrivial.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
It was probably watching um it was probably
watching Hitchcock's the Birds.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Oh.
Yeah, remote control.
Um so it can be that kind ofthing, or it could be something
that is that is terrible andongoing, like a a chronic
illness, either yourself orsomeone in your family, or a
very bad relationship dynamic,you know, there there are things
that can tend to to to wearpeople down.
(10:20):
Um and I guess uh I guess Iwanted to invite uh people
listening to think about, youknow, th just picture
themselves, you know, when theyhave been dealing with those
things, you know, was theirinstinct to go to having a laugh
about it, or was their instinctto go in another direction?
And then I guess the other thingthat we could ask is when was
(10:41):
the last time you had a reallygood laugh, like a really good
belly laugh?
What made you laugh?
And what was the uh what was theimpact of having that laugh at
the time?
Did it did it create anyshort-term or maybe medium or
even long-term positive effects?
Am I?
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
A little bit.
You're a little bit like I don'tknow, what do you like the way
you've stressed that?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Well, just to just to give people an opportunity to
work out whether Yeah, or I'llgive you a little bit of a
little bit of a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (11:11):
That's right, that's right, that's right, that's
right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Are you dealing with shit and when was the last time
you had a good laugh?
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Yeah.
So we have quite a lot of bellylaughs, and um I think it's good
to look at what happens in thebody when you are having a belly
laugh.
So what's actually happening inthe in the body, David, when
you're having a really goodbelly laugh?
SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
Well, in order to laugh, um your diaphragm has to
move up and down.
I mean it's um it's uh they'vetracked the um the rise and fall
of neurotransmitters in the bodywhen people laugh.
What happens when you startlaughing?
You actually release stresshormones.
So at first you start to get alittle bit more um a little bit
(11:53):
more tense.
So you build stress in the body.
It heats up.
It heats up, and then whathappens is the diaphragm starts
bouncing and it releases thatpressure.
So if I were to to justmechanically bounce my um my
diaphragm um on an exhalation,huh, ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Um that does create a release oftension in in the body, and that
(12:16):
was purely mechanical.
Um, but we have a laughterinstinct that can get activated
by doing that mechanically.
So I'll do, you know, sixmechanical ha ha ha, and then
I'll I'll I'll turn it into alaughter.
So ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
That's making me laugh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And of course, as actors, we arerequired.
I remember um an acting friendof mine, his greatest fear was
that he would be required tolaugh on Q on stage.
That was his greatest fear.
Like my greatest fear would beto have to cry on Q on stage,
(12:57):
right?
That would be that would causeme some um some stress.
But for him, he just wasterrified that he would have to
laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
But you can do it, that was really good.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Yeah, that's right.
So so so so you can actually geta a laughter going by doing
that, you know, the thatbouncing of the diaphragm, and
then the instinct will kick inand and the laughter will then
become organic.
And what is really happening,it's like you're it's like
you're you're you're shaking thetension out of the very centre
of your body.
I mean, you know that if yourhands are tight or your legs are
tight, you know, you give them abit of a shake and it gets the
(13:29):
blood and lymph and and and andother fluids moving through it.
Um the same thing is happeningin the short term when you
laugh.
You know, you're stimulatingactivity in your heart, your
lungs, you know, all the musclesof the body.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
It's it's it's um it's it's increasing your brain
endorphins.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yes.
And and and and just the oxygenthat goes into your body.
Again, um that process oflaughter, um, air is moving in
and out, and so the oxygen isgetting into the bloodstream.
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
And it aids it aids your muscle relaxation and
circulation, right?
And often often you'll noticeafter you've had a really good
belly laugh, is what it does isyou do get a good relaxed
feeling afterwards.
Because I think the other thingit does, and this is the the
that the problem is, is that theresistance to it is the issue.
(14:23):
The triggering thought is notthe problem.
The problem is your reaction tothe triggering thought, and the
more you resist that thought,the more it you become fused
with it, and then the thisreality that you have imagined
seems more and more potent andmore and more real.
(14:44):
Now, if you can actually addsome humor into the thinking,
then what happens is itactivates the bit of your brain
where you can actually separateto some degree from the thought,
have the thought, let thethought be, but it doesn't
actually embed this thought inyour brain if you've added some
(15:05):
humour into the situation.
And the other thing that happensis if you can have an alteration
in your perspective of what'sgoing on, right, then you can
start looking at it from adifferent perspective and you
can start problem solving.
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Yeah, okay.
So you're so you're saying thatif you're faced with a challenge
and you can in and you feel itshutting you down.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Like a thought, it's like a really scary thought.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, like a thought, you know, like you
know, like um we you know don'tdon't have enough money in the
bank in order to coversomething.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Or I I don't feel well, it's probably a terrible
illness.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Or uh the dog's not looking well, do we have to take
him back to the vet on a Sundaynight?
An anxious thought.
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Well, that was a genuine thought.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
It was a genuine thought, but it's still an
anxious you are you making adistinction between the two?
It could be a genuine thought.
We've got to take the dog to thevet.
Yes, we do have to take the dogto the vet.
That causes anxiety.
Well That's that's that's that'sstill part of this, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:00):
Yeah, but I mean sometimes you've got to
distinguish, haven't you, thatthat thought about do we have to
take to the dog to the vet.
There we don't want to push allthe thoughts away because
sometimes the thought isaccurate.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Well okay, so I think I think the the thing that
we're talking about here is thatif you want to use humour as a
way of managing your anxiety,you know, managing life's
challenges, then what you'regonna have to do is something
very counterintuitive.
In fact, almost somethingparadoxical.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Well, the the anxious feelings are
uncomfortable, and theinstinctive response is to push
them away.
SPEAKER_02 (16:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
The paradox is that you can actually free yourself
from the negative effect of thatthought by moving towards it, uh
about inviting it in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Um Okay, so let's just t take a a real world
example.
Yeah.
So I don't feel I've had thisweird nausea for three weeks.
I don't feel well.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
And so, you know, at least once a day I say to
myself, Oh, that's probably someterrible disease I've got.
Yeah.
I'm probably something terriblywrong with me.
Why won't it go away?
Why is it so intractable?
I don't feel well.
Yes.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Yes, yes.
And probably dying.
Okay, you're probably dying.
Yeah.
Um and so when when when yougive that voice, when you give
that thought that voice, does itfeel like a a particular
character, say, in a cartoon orsomething like that?
You know, I'm not feeling well,I'm probably going to die.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Uh no, it feels it feels if I don't apply any
techniques, it just feels realand awful.
But what you're talking about isactually using a paradoxical
technique.
So what I would do is turn itinto a comedic voice.
Yeah.
Like, you're probably gonna die.
This is terrible.
It's intractable, you're gonnadie, you've probably only got a
(17:47):
week to live.
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
Okay, and so so so what happens to your anxiety
when you when you do your badNew York accent?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
What do you mean bad?
Well, I g so it wasn't bad, Ithought it was really good.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
When you use your New York accent.
Thank you.
Yeah, what is it what does it doto that thought that maybe, you
know, not feeling well is it itr it reduces the amount to which
I'm fused with it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:09):
So instead of it being very central, the thought
and significant, it's just Idon't know, like a just a funny
thought.
I just feel I don't feel as asum hooked by it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Yeah.
I mean I mean that that thatcertainly reminds me of a suite
of therapeutic interventionsthat are part of um acceptance
commitment therapy that we thatwe practice with people.
Yeah.
Um and it is very much around uhchanging your relationship with
the thoughts that frighten youso that they have less power
(18:44):
over you.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
And how do you do that with humor?
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Okay, so well, you just did it then.
That's a great example of of ofgiving the the fear or the
anxiety a voice, but turning itinto a comic voice.
Um if you can personify um youknow the frightening thought.
So, you know, let's let let's uhlet's imagine um that it's a
(19:06):
it's a it's a it's it's a it's apurple bogeyman who emerges out
of the shadow um and and is isis scaring you with thoughts of
of never getting well again.
Um what you do is you if you ifyou can picture that bogeyman.
Oh, so I actively would picturethat.
Picture the bogeyman.
Uh-huh.
Um what colour is it?
(19:27):
Purple.
Is it in good shape or is itfat?
unknown (19:29):
Fat.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Is it's fat.
What what colour are the eyes?
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Green.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
Does it have horns?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
Are they uh pointing in the same direction?
No, one is skew if one is skewif.
Um and um and when this um whenthis bogeyman speaks to you,
it's with a bad New York accent.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Just a New York accent.
A New York accent.
Not a bad New York accent.
It's just a New York accent.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Um uh it it give it a line.
Like uh, you know, it looks itit looks like you're going to
die.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Looks like you're gonna die there.
Okay.
That was better.
I want to show that again.
Hang on, New York.
I might I might go uh I might goCal uh California.
So no, I'll go New York.
Okay.
Looks like you're gonna diethere, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
Yeah, okay.
Uh g give it a give it a yeah,give it a lisp.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Looks like you're gonna die there, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Yeah, uh, you know, uh forget about it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
So forget about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Yeah, forget about it.
Relax, guys.
Yeah, it looks like you're gonnadie there, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Yeah, it looks like you're gonna die there.
You've got a lisp.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
Okay.
So um even even though we'replaying around with this, how
how how powerful is thatthought, you know, your anxiety
about not getting well again?
Mm-hmm.
What's that done to it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Well, it I it's diminished it, but of course we
don't we can't be chasing thethe diminishment, can we,
because it's sort of countthat's you know what I mean?
I don't I can't want it to bedifferent because that gives it
power.
It just happens to be at themoment it's just sort of
hovering about.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
That's right.
So there we come back to the tothe to that paradox of while it
would seem natural and helpfulto push the thoughts away, yeah,
you actually invite it in andyou give it a character, you
give it a voice, you give ithorns that point in different
directions, you give it a lisp,um, and then see how much how
much power that has over you.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Yeah.
So um, and of course, the thingis that anxiety, depression, it
thrives on seriousness, doesn'tit?
Yeah, yeah.
So the more seriously youapproach these things, the more
gravity um you you sort of layerinto the situation, the less
(21:36):
likely you are to be able to seeit from another perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, uh a lot of people whenthey are under pressure, they
want their their struggles to bevalidated, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, see, that's another really interesting
point, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
You know, and and and and if we take the the
anxiety or the or the struggleor the challenge lightly, then
part of us might be quiteoffended.
You know, um we should be weshould be treating this, you
know, seriously.
Um, you know, we shouldn't belaughing at it.
But what unfortunately that doesis that it it actually gives
power to the thought.
(22:11):
Um so so so that's one thing, uhthe need for validation.
I think another thing that stopspeople from using humour, um
laughter as a hedge againstanxiety and and life's
challenges, um is the slightlydaggy nature of moving.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Actually, can I before you get on to the daggy
nature of it?
Okay, um I do think that's needsa bit more um focus.
That notion that if my narrativeis I'm having a really rough
time, right?
(22:48):
Yeah, and I lead with thatnarrative that life is tough and
you need to understand how toughmy life is, yeah, then of course
I don't it I will be offended.
Yeah, I would be offended if youtried to laugh at it.
So I think in terms of this canonly be something that you can
(23:11):
initiate yourself with your ownanxieties and life troubles.
I think if somebody else triesto um to tell you or tries to
put a comic edge on somethingthat you don't think is funny, I
think that would reallybackfire.
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So certain certainly in a in ain a in a therapeutic
conversation, if you go to sendup somebody's s struggles and
fears and anxiety.
Just in a friendship.
Or just in a friendship.
If you do it too soon, if you doit too soon, then it yes, it it
does invalidate.
You probably like to do moremore more harm than good.
Um so so just for now, let'slet's let's let's just swing it
(23:53):
around to our own privateprocess.
If we notice that we're feelingchallenged, anxiety, fear, those
sorts of things.
Um the invitation is for you tobounce your diaphragm and just
start laughing about it and seewhat happens.
There will be resistance becauseI think internally there will be
a voice that says, you know, mypain is not being validated
(24:15):
here.
Um and so at that point, itreally just is your choice.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
Um and just remembering that it is well
worth actually um trying to movein this direction because there
is plenty of evidence that itactually improves your immune
system.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
And and also because you've gone through like a
reframe, it's protective.
You're less likely to take it,take the next trial or
tribulation as seriously becauseyou become habitualized about
trying to look at the lighterside of life.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so so so I think whatyou're describing there is a is
a psychological benefit.
Um, I do believe that if you getinto the habit of laughing at
yourself, those positivethoughts actually do um release
neurotransmitters.
I think they're neuropeptides,and they generally make you feel
a little bit more resilient,optimistic, bulletproof.
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
Yeah, which just takes the wind out of anxiety's
sails, right?
Because you're sort of you'reyou're puncturing the side of
the anxious narrative, aren'tyou?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
But but but but for some people, um, you know, maybe
it is just that short to mediumterm getting through the current
challenge.
Um, you know, my my my mother,who passed about 12 years ago,
um, had pancreatic cancer.
Um and pancreatic cancer is, youknow, for those who know it,
it's a it's a it's a fairlydistressing diagnosis.
(25:46):
Um there's very little that canbe done in order to arrest its
decline.
Um and my mother, who did have,you know, some experience with
the black dog, she knew that shehad to watch her mental health
quite carefully.
Um, she actually decided to dothe the laughter therapy on her
own.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
And it really worked for her.
It really worked for her.
It really did, honestly.
God love her, it really workedfor her.
SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
And some people will sign up to, you know, laughter
yoga at um at ashrams.
I'm I'm sure you may have evenseen file footage of Ashrams?
Of yeah, ashrams, you know,people standing in circles and
uh, you know, they're being ledby a laughter guru and Annie's
face is um because then they'retorting with discomfort.
She doesn't like all of thisstuff.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Well I don't mind the laughter.
I just I I don't like anythingthat has a whiff of cult about
it, that's all.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
And as soon as you've got someone in front of
you know, a group telling themwhat to do, you know, there's
probably something going onbehind that I won't like.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Yeah, exactly.
You know, we we' we we're we'rewhenever whenever some guru
lights upon a particulartechnique or action that
requires repetition, yeah, thereis the the potential that it
might turn into a cult or itmight turn into a centre of
excellence, you know, dependingon who it is that's running it.
But yes, this idea of going to aclass and just sitting there and
laughing, again, there'sprobably resistance because we
(27:10):
don't think that we're doing,you know, justice to just how
hard life is.
But but to but to actually, youknow, do the laughter and feel
better is its own reward.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
If we wanted to to give people just a couple of
things to try, you know, to testthis hypothesis that laughter
makes things better, thatlaughter is indeed the best
medicine, um what do you thinkare some of the the simple, easy
things that you could start offwith?
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
I grew up with a very, very irreverent father who
and we pretty much laughed ateverything.
So it's in my DNA, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Um and I naturally surround myself with people um
and we we laugh all the timebecause all of us, at least one
of us at some point has gotsomething, you know, not great
going on, and we laugh about it.
So it comes naturally to me.
I think what you talked aboutbefore about actually applying
(28:08):
yourself to moving yourdiaphragm up and down and then
actually laughing, yeah.
And I guess I don't know, it dodo you asking yourself the
question, do you have a need umto have your um your struggles
validated.
Your struggles validated.
(28:29):
And if you do have a need tohave your struggles validated,
and we're not talking aboutobviously if somebody's going
through something reallyterrible, of course we should be
respectful and we should be ableto sit with that person in
whatever pain they're in.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about an ongoing thesort of clatter of life when
(28:52):
things happen.
Are you the sort of person wheresomething happens and what you
require is the people around youto validate that quite
seriously?
Now, if that's the case, andit'd be interesting for you to
watch it, does that make youfeel any better?
Because often people that are inthat sort of social situation
(29:13):
where they are constantlylooking for validation that
their situation is difficult,their situation is worse.
If we knew what it was like forthem, then we wouldn't be
laughing.
Often what happens is hisfriends begin to drop off.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
That that's the unfortunate truth.
Because everybody is dealingwith something.
That's my experience.
Most people are dealing withsomething at some time, right?
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
I mean they say misery love loves company, but
um but it's not the kind ofcompany that you want to keep
around you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
No, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
Because it keeps you um it keeps you mired.
So look, some really simplethings that you can do.
Um first thing is is right nowyou could turn the corners of
your mouth up, make a smile, andthen just give a laugh.
Even if it feels forced.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
Even if it feels forced.
Um After you've had a chuckle,just take stock of how you're
feeling.
You know, do you do you noticethat your muscles are a little
less tense or do you feel anymore buoyant?
Um you could do very directlaughter practice.
So if you if you find ways ofhabitually laughing at difficult
(30:18):
situations, and again see ifyour stress begins to to fade
away.
You know, here we are again atthe emergency vet on Sunday
night.
You know, it would have to beSunday night.
You know, there's there'sthere's some humour in there.
Um you could try, you know, thelaughter yoga if it's being
advertised anywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Or just watch, you know, make make a point of
watching really, really funnyshows.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know, what's areally funny show?
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Well, you know, I I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm certainly
enjoying um South Park at themoment.
South Park's great.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
I do um I've been watching Simpsons is really
funny.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
I've been watching reruns of The Good Place.
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Oh, The Good Place is really good.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Which is also funny.
And and and look, I I know thatthat's why sometimes people go
to social media, you know, somuch of the social media
context.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
I find hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
I I I I like pictures of of cats swatting
people and animals that are muchbarga much bigger than this.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Just a cat smacking a dog I find really funny.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Um there was that other technique that we were
talking before, and that is toexaggerate the intrusive thought
and give it a give it aridiculous character.
You know, give it give it MickeyMouse ears.
You know, if if you're worriedabout the um the the um uh the
grim reaper, then give the grimreaper Mickey Mouse ears and a
Mickey Mouse voice.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Yeah, exactly.
It's the salmon moose.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Did you say it's the salmon moose?
Oh, that's funny.
Um so look, I think we startedthis discussion by by um talking
about my friend with the brushturkey pooing on her bed.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Bush turkey.
The bush turkey, bush turkey pooon poo poo on the bed.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
The bush turkey roaming the house while she was
too frightened to go in.
It's pretty funny.
So um yeah, I think it's just areally good thing to remember
that all of us in the course ofour life stuff arises, there's
going to be difficult, there'sgoing to be difficulties,
there's going to be trials,there's going to be
tribulations.
(32:19):
And developing your capacity tolook at these things with a
humorous bent is really reallyhelpful in managing your mood,
in managing anxiety, in managingdepression, in boosting your
immune system, and just keepingeverything turning over in a
(32:43):
better work better workingorder.
SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
I mean humour is the greatest gift that evolution has
given to human beings.
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Do dogs laugh?
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Do they laugh?
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Do you think they see things are funny?
SPEAKER_01 (32:57):
I th well I I don't think that they've got the
capacity for the kind of kind ofum humour that we enjoy, which
is about contrast and narrativeand juxtaposition of complex
things.
SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
I think I think yo-yo might have laughed at
Ryder.
Ryder with the socked sock.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
Yo-yo are probably fed Ryder the sock.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
Yo yo.
She's a bad evil dog.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Um but but yeah, humor hu humour is evolution's
gift to mankind.
You know, unwrap that presentand use it every day.
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
So on that note, thank you so much for tuning in.
As always, stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(33:45):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(34:09):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(34:29):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(34:49):
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm in a cabin,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not as I don't think that's afive year.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,Sydney, New South Wales,
(01:06):
Australia.
And it is a perfect What are youlaughing at?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
What are you laughing at?
What am I laughing at?
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Um anything and everything this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
Oh shut up.
Stop being daggy.
Haven't it even started yet?
Oh my god.
All right, don't confirm whatI'm going to be talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Okay, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Please please do go on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Thank you.
So um for all of you that arelooking into a European autumn
and going into a Europeanwinter, we are having a perfect
sunny, gorgeous spring day herein Sydney.
Don't want to brag, but that'sthe reality of it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
You're so mean.
SPEAKER_00 (01:47):
So this is what happened this week.
I was at the gym and I was umdoing one of the pre-workout
stretches on the floor, and myfriend Gabby, he's from Brazil,
said to me, um, oh I've hadquite a day.
I could only, I was going to run5k and then I couldn't only run
(02:09):
four because I was so tired.
And um I said, Oh, well thatthat's okay.
You can, you know, work hard inthis session or whatever.
And then she said, Oh, I hadsuch a bad morning.
This um um bush turkey now wehave these things in Sydney um
called bush turkeys, and theyhave recently migrated down from
(02:34):
Queensland.
The bush turkeys.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
But they've recently migrated.
Well they did you I thought theywere always here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Did what you think about it, d how often when you
were growing up did you see, oreven when our kids did kids were
growing up, did you see bushturkeys?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Uh isn't that the availability by the No I don't
think it is.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
There's an example that's not maybe we weren't
wandering around the locationswhere bush turkeys exist.
It's not that there's been amass migration of them from
Queensland and apparently andthey're protected.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
Well, let's protest.
Anyway, they're really I'm soagainst mass migration.
We must we must resist it.
Yeah it's ruining the Australianway of life.
This right this bush turkey massmigration.
SPEAKER_00 (03:11):
That's right down from Queensland.
Anyway, bush turkeys are umthey're really not very
attractive.
They're large, they're they'resort of the size of a what?
What are they the size of?
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
Well, like a a turkey.
A turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
They're like they're like a big turkey, and they've
they've got unfortunately thatthey've got heads, they look
like vultures.
They're really unattractive.
Anyway, and they make theseterrible big net nests, and
they're just sort of awful, andthey wander around and they're
just not very pleasant.
Anyway, she said, so anyway,this bush turkey got into my
(03:46):
house.
That's the wrong accent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:48):
Is that is that a Brazilian accent?
SPEAKER_00 (03:49):
Oh, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait, let me think
about Gabby.
Um, anyway, so this bush turkey,it got into my house and freaked
me out.
So I'm looking at it and it'swandering around inside my
house, which is like a horriblethought um in the first place.
The thought that one of theseenormous turkeys could actually
(04:10):
get into your house.
And then she said, then so Iwent outside and I waited for it
to leave.
I thought that was pretty funny.
She just went outside, she wasso scared of it because it's so
big.
She said, I just went outsideand I waited for it to leave,
and then it didn't leave.
So I went back inside and it wason her bed.
SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
Oh, how awful.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
And it had shat itself on her bed anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
I thought that was coming.
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
It was on her bed, and she said, and the worst
thing was I had just changed mysheets, everything was clean.
I'd changed my sheets, it wasall beautiful and clean, and
then I look, and there it was onthe bed, and it had shut
everywhere.
Anyway, she started to laugh,and I started to laugh, and we
we laughed so hard at thethought of this horrible thing
(04:59):
on her bed ruining her morning,and then everyone was like, What
are you laughing at?
And then she told them, and thenit was on my bed, she was
yelling Christine, and every itwent everywhere, and it shot on
my bed, and I had that thing,and I couldn't get it out, and
then everyone else was laughing,and um and then she had video of
it, so then we all stopped whatwe were doing and looked at the
(05:21):
video.
It's so horrible.
Anyway, so we we laughed, andand during the session, I every
time I looked at her looked ather, we would start laughing
again, and it just it just mademe think of the different ways
that we deal with life'schallenges, right?
(05:44):
Because you that could happen toyou, right?
And you may not see the funnyside of that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Oh no, you could be quite outraged.
Yeah, I think you you'd be quiteoutraged.
No, I'd laugh a lot.
You would be later.
You would laugh later.
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
Oh, I always laugh later.
SPEAKER_01 (05:56):
You wouldn't laugh at the time, though.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
No, I'd be terrified at the time.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
I I don't know what to do with these big flapping
things of the brush turkey.
I I I I I don't know, I wouldn'tknow how to get it out, I would
be scared of it.
Um it would cause me all mannerof angst.
But as soon as it was over, itwould it would go into my um
corollary of things that haveamusing things that have
(06:22):
happened to me.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
That's right, your your your your Rollodex of funny
stories.
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
My Rollodex of Funny Stories, it would be added, it
would be added that to that,right?
For sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (06:30):
I know that Rollodex well.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Yeah, so and she's the same, and we we we are still
laughing about it.
I said it's just the funniestthing I'd ever heard, the
thought of this horrible thing,and her too frightened to go
into the house.
So then I thought some somepeople would not see the humour
in that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
And and then I thought about you know, us and
our very close friends and howvery quickly on the back of bad
things that have happened, howwe pretty much go immediately to
black humour and say reallyinappropriate things.
SPEAKER_01 (07:04):
Um of course we can't give you any examples
because they're soinappropriate.
But that's our black humour,isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Very much so, and you know, like with the dog, you
know, like with all that thathappened with the dog.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
The stupid expensive dog.
SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
The stupid the dog is now the stupid expensive dog,
and we're just laughing aboutand someone said to me today,
has he done it before?
I said, Oh yeah, weekly.
You know, that that dog is amassive consumer of underwear
and socks, which is true.
So we're laughing about it, andthat is our way to laugh about
it.
So then um I thought I thoughtto myself, because it is not
(07:39):
everybody's way um to laugh, uh,I thought how what are the
benefits of it as a copingstrategy?
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
Yeah, because there's been quite a lot of
study done into this.
Um I think people have noticedintuitively they feel better
when they um when they have alaugh.
Um and they're able to cope muchbetter when they're able to to
laugh at adversity.
What's that phrase, you know?
If you don't yeah you have tolaugh, otherwise you'd cry.
Um so so so yeah, there's plentyof anecdotal stuff and and
(08:10):
plenty of intuitive stuff.
But um so you did a bit ofresearch on the the benefits of
humour and indeed just thesimple act of laughing on stress
and anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Which I'd never really thought about because we
just spend such vast periods ofour life doing it.
Yes, right?
It just never occurred to me umthat it is an incredibly um
helpful mechanism to combat umdepression and anxiety and just
(08:44):
to manage life's vagaries,life's up and down, because as
we know, shit happens.
Yeah, and it's gonna keephappening.
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
Can I suggest just a a little a little relevance
check at this particular point?
You know, if you must.
Well, I don't know, you can youcan always edit this out, I
guess.
But yeah, just ask ask your youryour listeners to um you know to
uh to think about um let's see,the the last time that they
actually did have to deal withsomething very, very stressful,
(09:13):
you know, be it a a brush turkeyon the bed or or perhaps.
Bush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:19):
I know that they can be called brush or bush, but I
think we're going to call itbush today because it's
confusing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay.
I mean the I think the thecorrect term is brush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
I think it is.
I think it's bush.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Okay.
You're certain about that?
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
But I sound certain.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
You prefer it, wouldn't you?
I would.
Okay, f so from this pointforward, if ever we mention a
brush turkey.
SPEAKER_00 (09:37):
It's a bush turkey.
Well, and and we named it viceversa.
I think we named it what do wename it?
I think we named it Aloysiciousor something like that.
Her b the one that was on herbed.
Okay, okay.
I think it was having acigarette and a small gin.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
Okay, so so sometimes it's something, you
know, transitory and and uh andtrivial.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
It was probably watching um it was probably
watching Hitchcock's the Birds.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Oh.
Yeah, remote control.
Um so it can be that kind ofthing, or it could be something
that is that is terrible andongoing, like a a chronic
illness, either yourself orsomeone in your family, or a
very bad relationship dynamic,you know, there there are things
that can tend to to to wearpeople down.
(10:20):
Um and I guess uh I guess Iwanted to invite uh people
listening to think about, youknow, th just picture
themselves, you know, when theyhave been dealing with those
things, you know, was theirinstinct to go to having a laugh
about it, or was their instinctto go in another direction?
And then I guess the other thingthat we could ask is when was
(10:41):
the last time you had a reallygood laugh, like a really good
belly laugh?
What made you laugh?
And what was the uh what was theimpact of having that laugh at
the time?
Did it did it create anyshort-term or maybe medium or
even long-term positive effects?
Am I?
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
A little bit.
You're a little bit like I don'tknow, what do you like the way
you've stressed that?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Well, just to just to give people an opportunity to
work out whether Yeah, or I'llgive you a little bit of a
little bit of a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00 (11:11):
That's right, that's right, that's right, that's
right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:12):
Are you dealing with shit and when was the last time
you had a good laugh?
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Yeah.
So we have quite a lot of bellylaughs, and um I think it's good
to look at what happens in thebody when you are having a belly
laugh.
So what's actually happening inthe in the body, David, when
you're having a really goodbelly laugh?
SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
Well, in order to laugh, um your diaphragm has to
move up and down.
I mean it's um it's uh they'vetracked the um the rise and fall
of neurotransmitters in the bodywhen people laugh.
What happens when you startlaughing?
You actually release stresshormones.
So at first you start to get alittle bit more um a little bit
(11:53):
more tense.
So you build stress in the body.
It heats up.
It heats up, and then whathappens is the diaphragm starts
bouncing and it releases thatpressure.
So if I were to to justmechanically bounce my um my
diaphragm um on an exhalation,huh, ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Um that does create a release oftension in in the body, and that
(12:16):
was purely mechanical.
Um, but we have a laughterinstinct that can get activated
by doing that mechanically.
So I'll do, you know, sixmechanical ha ha ha, and then
I'll I'll I'll turn it into alaughter.
So ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
That's making me laugh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And of course, as actors, we arerequired.
I remember um an acting friendof mine, his greatest fear was
that he would be required tolaugh on Q on stage.
That was his greatest fear.
Like my greatest fear would beto have to cry on Q on stage,
(12:57):
right?
That would be that would causeme some um some stress.
But for him, he just wasterrified that he would have to
laugh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
But you can do it, that was really good.
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
Yeah, that's right.
So so so so you can actually geta a laughter going by doing
that, you know, the thatbouncing of the diaphragm, and
then the instinct will kick inand and the laughter will then
become organic.
And what is really happening,it's like you're it's like
you're you're you're shaking thetension out of the very centre
of your body.
I mean, you know that if yourhands are tight or your legs are
tight, you know, you give them abit of a shake and it gets the
(13:29):
blood and lymph and and and andother fluids moving through it.
Um the same thing is happeningin the short term when you
laugh.
You know, you're stimulatingactivity in your heart, your
lungs, you know, all the musclesof the body.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
It's it's it's um it's it's increasing your brain
endorphins.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yes.
And and and and just the oxygenthat goes into your body.
Again, um that process oflaughter, um, air is moving in
and out, and so the oxygen isgetting into the bloodstream.
SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
And it aids it aids your muscle relaxation and
circulation, right?
And often often you'll noticeafter you've had a really good
belly laugh, is what it does isyou do get a good relaxed
feeling afterwards.
Because I think the other thingit does, and this is the the
that the problem is, is that theresistance to it is the issue.
(14:23):
The triggering thought is notthe problem.
The problem is your reaction tothe triggering thought, and the
more you resist that thought,the more it you become fused
with it, and then the thisreality that you have imagined
seems more and more potent andmore and more real.
(14:44):
Now, if you can actually addsome humor into the thinking,
then what happens is itactivates the bit of your brain
where you can actually separateto some degree from the thought,
have the thought, let thethought be, but it doesn't
actually embed this thought inyour brain if you've added some
(15:05):
humour into the situation.
And the other thing that happensis if you can have an alteration
in your perspective of what'sgoing on, right, then you can
start looking at it from adifferent perspective and you
can start problem solving.
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Yeah, okay.
So you're so you're saying thatif you're faced with a challenge
and you can in and you feel itshutting you down.
SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Like a thought, it's like a really scary thought.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, like a thought, you know, like you
know, like um we you know don'tdon't have enough money in the
bank in order to coversomething.
SPEAKER_00 (15:36):
Or I I don't feel well, it's probably a terrible
illness.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Or uh the dog's not looking well, do we have to take
him back to the vet on a Sundaynight?
An anxious thought.
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Well, that was a genuine thought.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
It was a genuine thought, but it's still an
anxious you are you making adistinction between the two?
It could be a genuine thought.
We've got to take the dog to thevet.
Yes, we do have to take the dogto the vet.
That causes anxiety.
Well That's that's that's that'sstill part of this, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:00):
Yeah, but I mean sometimes you've got to
distinguish, haven't you, thatthat thought about do we have to
take to the dog to the vet.
There we don't want to push allthe thoughts away because
sometimes the thought isaccurate.
SPEAKER_01 (16:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
Well okay, so I think I think the the thing that
we're talking about here is thatif you want to use humour as a
way of managing your anxiety,you know, managing life's
challenges, then what you'regonna have to do is something
very counterintuitive.
In fact, almost somethingparadoxical.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:30):
Well, the the anxious feelings are
uncomfortable, and theinstinctive response is to push
them away.
SPEAKER_02 (16:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
The paradox is that you can actually free yourself
from the negative effect of thatthought by moving towards it, uh
about inviting it in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Um Okay, so let's just t take a a real world
example.
Yeah.
So I don't feel I've had thisweird nausea for three weeks.
I don't feel well.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
And so, you know, at least once a day I say to
myself, Oh, that's probably someterrible disease I've got.
Yeah.
I'm probably something terriblywrong with me.
Why won't it go away?
Why is it so intractable?
I don't feel well.
Yes.
What's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
Yes, yes.
And probably dying.
Okay, you're probably dying.
Yeah.
Um and so when when when yougive that voice, when you give
that thought that voice, does itfeel like a a particular
character, say, in a cartoon orsomething like that?
You know, I'm not feeling well,I'm probably going to die.
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Uh no, it feels it feels if I don't apply any
techniques, it just feels realand awful.
But what you're talking about isactually using a paradoxical
technique.
So what I would do is turn itinto a comedic voice.
Yeah.
Like, you're probably gonna die.
This is terrible.
It's intractable, you're gonnadie, you've probably only got a
(17:47):
week to live.
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
Okay, and so so so what happens to your anxiety
when you when you do your badNew York accent?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
What do you mean bad?
Well, I g so it wasn't bad, Ithought it was really good.
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
When you use your New York accent.
Thank you.
Yeah, what is it what does it doto that thought that maybe, you
know, not feeling well is it itr it reduces the amount to which
I'm fused with it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:09):
So instead of it being very central, the thought
and significant, it's just Idon't know, like a just a funny
thought.
I just feel I don't feel as asum hooked by it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:24):
Yeah.
I mean I mean that that thatcertainly reminds me of a suite
of therapeutic interventionsthat are part of um acceptance
commitment therapy that we thatwe practice with people.
Yeah.
Um and it is very much around uhchanging your relationship with
the thoughts that frighten youso that they have less power
(18:44):
over you.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
And how do you do that with humor?
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
Okay, so well, you just did it then.
That's a great example of of ofgiving the the fear or the
anxiety a voice, but turning itinto a comic voice.
Um if you can personify um youknow the frightening thought.
So, you know, let's let let's uhlet's imagine um that it's a
(19:06):
it's a it's a it's it's a it's apurple bogeyman who emerges out
of the shadow um and and is isis scaring you with thoughts of
of never getting well again.
Um what you do is you if you ifyou can picture that bogeyman.
Oh, so I actively would picturethat.
Picture the bogeyman.
Uh-huh.
Um what colour is it?
(19:27):
Purple.
Is it in good shape or is itfat?
unknown (19:29):
Fat.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Is it's fat.
What what colour are the eyes?
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Green.
SPEAKER_01 (19:32):
Does it have horns?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:34):
Are they uh pointing in the same direction?
No, one is skew if one is skewif.
Um and um and when this um whenthis bogeyman speaks to you,
it's with a bad New York accent.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Just a New York accent.
A New York accent.
Not a bad New York accent.
It's just a New York accent.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Um uh it it give it a line.
Like uh, you know, it looks itit looks like you're going to
die.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Looks like you're gonna die there.
Okay.
That was better.
I want to show that again.
Hang on, New York.
I might I might go uh I might goCal uh California.
So no, I'll go New York.
Okay.
Looks like you're gonna diethere, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:08):
Yeah, okay.
Uh g give it a give it a yeah,give it a lisp.
SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
Looks like you're gonna die there, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (20:14):
Yeah, uh, you know, uh forget about it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
So forget about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Yeah, forget about it.
Relax, guys.
Yeah, it looks like you're gonnadie there, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Yeah, it looks like you're gonna die there.
You've got a lisp.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
Okay.
So um even even though we'replaying around with this, how
how how powerful is thatthought, you know, your anxiety
about not getting well again?
Mm-hmm.
What's that done to it?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Well, it I it's diminished it, but of course we
don't we can't be chasing thethe diminishment, can we,
because it's sort of countthat's you know what I mean?
I don't I can't want it to bedifferent because that gives it
power.
It just happens to be at themoment it's just sort of
hovering about.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
That's right.
So there we come back to the tothe to that paradox of while it
would seem natural and helpfulto push the thoughts away, yeah,
you actually invite it in andyou give it a character, you
give it a voice, you give ithorns that point in different
directions, you give it a lisp,um, and then see how much how
much power that has over you.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Yeah.
So um, and of course, the thingis that anxiety, depression, it
thrives on seriousness, doesn'tit?
Yeah, yeah.
So the more seriously youapproach these things, the more
gravity um you you sort of layerinto the situation, the less
(21:36):
likely you are to be able to seeit from another perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, uh a lot of people whenthey are under pressure, they
want their their struggles to bevalidated, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, see, that's another really interesting
point, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
You know, and and and and if we take the the
anxiety or the or the struggleor the challenge lightly, then
part of us might be quiteoffended.
You know, um we should be weshould be treating this, you
know, seriously.
Um, you know, we shouldn't belaughing at it.
But what unfortunately that doesis that it it actually gives
power to the thought.
(22:11):
Um so so so that's one thing, uhthe need for validation.
I think another thing that stopspeople from using humour, um
laughter as a hedge againstanxiety and and life's
challenges, um is the slightlydaggy nature of moving.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Actually, can I before you get on to the daggy
nature of it?
Okay, um I do think that's needsa bit more um focus.
That notion that if my narrativeis I'm having a really rough
time, right?
(22:48):
Yeah, and I lead with thatnarrative that life is tough and
you need to understand how toughmy life is, yeah, then of course
I don't it I will be offended.
Yeah, I would be offended if youtried to laugh at it.
So I think in terms of this canonly be something that you can
(23:11):
initiate yourself with your ownanxieties and life troubles.
I think if somebody else triesto um to tell you or tries to
put a comic edge on somethingthat you don't think is funny, I
think that would reallybackfire.
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So certain certainly in a in ain a in a therapeutic
conversation, if you go to sendup somebody's s struggles and
fears and anxiety.
Just in a friendship.
Or just in a friendship.
If you do it too soon, if you doit too soon, then it yes, it it
does invalidate.
You probably like to do moremore more harm than good.
Um so so just for now, let'slet's let's let's just swing it
(23:53):
around to our own privateprocess.
If we notice that we're feelingchallenged, anxiety, fear, those
sorts of things.
Um the invitation is for you tobounce your diaphragm and just
start laughing about it and seewhat happens.
There will be resistance becauseI think internally there will be
a voice that says, you know, mypain is not being validated
(24:15):
here.
Um and so at that point, itreally just is your choice.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
Um and just remembering that it is well
worth actually um trying to movein this direction because there
is plenty of evidence that itactually improves your immune
system.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
And and also because you've gone through like a
reframe, it's protective.
You're less likely to take it,take the next trial or
tribulation as seriously becauseyou become habitualized about
trying to look at the lighterside of life.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so so so I think whatyou're describing there is a is
a psychological benefit.
Um, I do believe that if you getinto the habit of laughing at
yourself, those positivethoughts actually do um release
neurotransmitters.
I think they're neuropeptides,and they generally make you feel
a little bit more resilient,optimistic, bulletproof.
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
Yeah, which just takes the wind out of anxiety's
sails, right?
Because you're sort of you'reyou're puncturing the side of
the anxious narrative, aren'tyou?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
But but but but for some people, um, you know, maybe
it is just that short to mediumterm getting through the current
challenge.
Um, you know, my my my mother,who passed about 12 years ago,
um, had pancreatic cancer.
Um and pancreatic cancer is, youknow, for those who know it,
it's a it's a it's a fairlydistressing diagnosis.
(25:46):
Um there's very little that canbe done in order to arrest its
decline.
Um and my mother, who did have,you know, some experience with
the black dog, she knew that shehad to watch her mental health
quite carefully.
Um, she actually decided to dothe the laughter therapy on her
own.
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
And it really worked for her.
It really worked for her.
It really did, honestly.
God love her, it really workedfor her.
SPEAKER_01 (26:11):
And some people will sign up to, you know, laughter
yoga at um at ashrams.
I'm I'm sure you may have evenseen file footage of Ashrams?
Of yeah, ashrams, you know,people standing in circles and
uh, you know, they're being ledby a laughter guru and Annie's
face is um because then they'retorting with discomfort.
She doesn't like all of thisstuff.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Well I don't mind the laughter.
I just I I don't like anythingthat has a whiff of cult about
it, that's all.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
And as soon as you've got someone in front of
you know, a group telling themwhat to do, you know, there's
probably something going onbehind that I won't like.
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Yeah, exactly.
You know, we we' we we're we'rewhenever whenever some guru
lights upon a particulartechnique or action that
requires repetition, yeah, thereis the the potential that it
might turn into a cult or itmight turn into a centre of
excellence, you know, dependingon who it is that's running it.
But yes, this idea of going to aclass and just sitting there and
laughing, again, there'sprobably resistance because we
(27:10):
don't think that we're doing,you know, justice to just how
hard life is.
But but to but to actually, youknow, do the laughter and feel
better is its own reward.
SPEAKER_00 (27:21):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
If we wanted to to give people just a couple of
things to try, you know, to testthis hypothesis that laughter
makes things better, thatlaughter is indeed the best
medicine, um what do you thinkare some of the the simple, easy
things that you could start offwith?
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
I grew up with a very, very irreverent father who
and we pretty much laughed ateverything.
So it's in my DNA, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Um and I naturally surround myself with people um
and we we laugh all the timebecause all of us, at least one
of us at some point has gotsomething, you know, not great
going on, and we laugh about it.
So it comes naturally to me.
I think what you talked aboutbefore about actually applying
(28:08):
yourself to moving yourdiaphragm up and down and then
actually laughing, yeah.
And I guess I don't know, it dodo you asking yourself the
question, do you have a need umto have your um your struggles
validated.
Your struggles validated.
(28:29):
And if you do have a need tohave your struggles validated,
and we're not talking aboutobviously if somebody's going
through something reallyterrible, of course we should be
respectful and we should be ableto sit with that person in
whatever pain they're in.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about an ongoing thesort of clatter of life when
(28:52):
things happen.
Are you the sort of person wheresomething happens and what you
require is the people around youto validate that quite
seriously?
Now, if that's the case, andit'd be interesting for you to
watch it, does that make youfeel any better?
Because often people that are inthat sort of social situation
(29:13):
where they are constantlylooking for validation that
their situation is difficult,their situation is worse.
If we knew what it was like forthem, then we wouldn't be
laughing.
Often what happens is hisfriends begin to drop off.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
That that's the unfortunate truth.
Because everybody is dealingwith something.
That's my experience.
Most people are dealing withsomething at some time, right?
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
I mean they say misery love loves company, but
um but it's not the kind ofcompany that you want to keep
around you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
No, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (29:41):
Because it keeps you um it keeps you mired.
So look, some really simplethings that you can do.
Um first thing is is right nowyou could turn the corners of
your mouth up, make a smile, andthen just give a laugh.
Even if it feels forced.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
Even if it feels forced.
Um After you've had a chuckle,just take stock of how you're
feeling.
You know, do you do you noticethat your muscles are a little
less tense or do you feel anymore buoyant?
Um you could do very directlaughter practice.
So if you if you find ways ofhabitually laughing at difficult
(30:18):
situations, and again see ifyour stress begins to to fade
away.
You know, here we are again atthe emergency vet on Sunday
night.
You know, it would have to beSunday night.
You know, there's there'sthere's some humour in there.
Um you could try, you know, thelaughter yoga if it's being
advertised anywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
Or just watch, you know, make make a point of
watching really, really funnyshows.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know, what's areally funny show?
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Well, you know, I I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm certainly
enjoying um South Park at themoment.
South Park's great.
SPEAKER_00 (30:50):
I do um I've been watching Simpsons is really
funny.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
I've been watching reruns of The Good Place.
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Oh, The Good Place is really good.
SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
Which is also funny.
And and and look, I I know thatthat's why sometimes people go
to social media, you know, somuch of the social media
context.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
I find hilarious.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
I I I I like pictures of of cats swatting
people and animals that are muchbarga much bigger than this.
SPEAKER_00 (31:13):
Just a cat smacking a dog I find really funny.
SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:18):
Um there was that other technique that we were
talking before, and that is toexaggerate the intrusive thought
and give it a give it aridiculous character.
You know, give it give it MickeyMouse ears.
You know, if if you're worriedabout the um the the um uh the
grim reaper, then give the grimreaper Mickey Mouse ears and a
Mickey Mouse voice.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Yeah, exactly.
It's the salmon moose.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Or something like that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:42):
Did you say it's the salmon moose?
Oh, that's funny.
Um so look, I think we startedthis discussion by by um talking
about my friend with the brushturkey pooing on her bed.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Bush turkey.
The bush turkey, bush turkey pooon poo poo on the bed.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
The bush turkey roaming the house while she was
too frightened to go in.
It's pretty funny.
So um yeah, I think it's just areally good thing to remember
that all of us in the course ofour life stuff arises, there's
going to be difficult, there'sgoing to be difficulties,
there's going to be trials,there's going to be
tribulations.
(32:19):
And developing your capacity tolook at these things with a
humorous bent is really reallyhelpful in managing your mood,
in managing anxiety, in managingdepression, in boosting your
immune system, and just keepingeverything turning over in a
(32:43):
better work better workingorder.
SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
I mean humour is the greatest gift that evolution has
given to human beings.
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Do dogs laugh?
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
Do they laugh?
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
Do you think they see things are funny?
SPEAKER_01 (32:57):
I th well I I don't think that they've got the
capacity for the kind of kind ofum humour that we enjoy, which
is about contrast and narrativeand juxtaposition of complex
things.
SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
I think I think yo-yo might have laughed at
Ryder.
Ryder with the socked sock.
SPEAKER_01 (33:12):
Yo-yo are probably fed Ryder the sock.
SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
Yo yo.
She's a bad evil dog.
SPEAKER_01 (33:17):
Um but but yeah, humor hu humour is evolution's
gift to mankind.
You know, unwrap that presentand use it every day.
SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
So on that note, thank you so much for tuning in.
As always, stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(33:45):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(34:09):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(34:29):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(34:49):
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
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