December 1, 2025 • 29 mins
We explore how quiet, steady change can break the shopping dopamine loop, reduce bias-driven choices, and build a wardrobe that reflects who we really are. Emma Edwards shares tools for metacognition, enoughness, and outfit repeating without fear while keeping values in view.
• recognising present bias, urgency bias and loss aversion in shopping
• exposure therapy for desire and “empty the cart” tactics
• buying possibility versus getting reality
• outfit repeating, the spotlight effect and reframing enoughness
• distinguishing joy from “should” in beauty and fashion
• habits for health without consumer triggers
• sustainability that follows once the dopamine fog lifts
• building a wardrobe for longevity, fit and frequent wear
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we physically make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and tail smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make a good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, and you're thecompanion.
And as a woman of the turkey,I've made my own chairs really
bad decisions.
And I wish this podcast has beenaround to take me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:50):
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Hello and welcome back to theWhy Smart Women podcast.
This is part two of my interviewwith Emma Edwards and her
fascinating book, The WardrobeProject.
If you haven't listened to partone, I strongly suggest you do
because it provides context forthis second episode.
(01:11):
Enjoy.
So if that's sort of why we doit, how do we how do we stop?
How do we overcome the cognitivebiases?
Because I know we we talkedabout the fact that of course
there's a there's a bigfinancial impact, right, on not
(01:32):
constantly shopping.
But we do know that um having asense of you in the future is
what you need to do in order toum save, eat properly, look
after yourself in whatevercontext.
And yet we also know that whenwe think about our future
selves, the part of the brainthat fires off is the part of
(01:56):
the brain that lights up when wethink about strangers.
So your future self, as you tryand think about it, is a
stranger.
And we certainly with me when Ithink about spending money, um,
it's certainly a stranger that Idon't think I don't care, I
don't care much about.
So that the the sense ofimmediacy of present of the bias
(02:18):
around present focus is verymuch in play.
I can feel it in myself when Iwalk past a shop and I see
something I like.
So the sense of present bias isvery much with me.
So how do we counter that?
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, the first thing it comes down to for me is
recognizing that change is notgoing to be this big crescendo
moment like we see in themovies.
We have been sold this ideathat, you know, it's in all of
the, it's in so many movieswhere a woman undergoes a
makeover or a transformation andthere's a big kind of montage.
(02:53):
Sure.
And then afterwards, when shesupposedly has all these
feelings of confidence andeverything is better, it happens
really, really quickly and it'sthe flip of a switch.
Yep.
When we actually recognize thatchange is a bit like I talked
about when I realized my bodyimage was was better than it had
ever been, it was quiet.
Change isn't actually loud,change isn't these big, massive
(03:16):
shifts.
It's really, really subtledifferences in the way that you
see yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Listeners are used to the fact that yo-yo often has
a bit of a bark.
So I hope that that didn'tdisturb anybody's concentration
too much.
But do do go on.
Yeah, these of course, that thechange you're saying is is
gradual and quiet.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Change is quiet, and I always thought that change
would be loud.
I thought I would wake up oneday and like myself.
I would wake up one day and feelconfident, or I would do one
thing, or buy one thing, orchange one thing about myself,
and then I'd feel confident.
So recognizing that that was anunhelpful expectation was one
(03:54):
thing.
The second thing for me wasbreaking down the difference in
what I thought I was buying andwhat I was actually getting.
What do you mean by that?
Before I talked about thatpossibility that is held within
every new piece of clothing,every time we strive to be the
fantastic self, we strive to getthe positive feeling.
(04:15):
What I recognized when I startedto understand the patterns in my
wardrobe and the commonalitiesin those stories were all of the
times I'd been buying somethingthat I actually wasn't getting.
That made me realize where, youknow, we say we're disconnected
from our fantasy selves.
That actually, rather thantrying to explicitly connect
(04:38):
with the with the future self,it actually kind of taught me
the ways I was robbing mypresent self.
We think we're choosing ourpresent selves, but the present
self isn't really gettinganything either in this
scenario.
We we think, oh, I'm I'm robbingmy future self of this money
because I'm that person's astranger to me and I'm gonna be
able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Oh, yeah, but it's a trick anyway.
It's a trick, it's a ruse.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Nobody's winning in this situation.
Yeah, we're getting a hit ofdopamine, but it's not really
lasting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, yeah.
It's the hedonic adaptation.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
It's just it's just it's it's all just hopeless,
really, isn't it?
So that sort of bridged thatmiddle bit for me of hang on,
all of these things that I thinkI'm doing for myself now, I'm
not actually getting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
But you would have had to have actually had that
thought while you're stand whileyou're either about to online
shop and say, you know, put itin the basket, or you're
standing in the shop with yourhand on the coat hanger.
So you would have had to haveactually intervened, you would
(05:40):
have had to use metacognition,which is thinking about your
thinking in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Yes.
So I did what I called exposuretherapy throughout the year,
where I would browse online orgo into stores and look at
things on the you know, peoplego, Oh my god, you're a
masochist.
And no, I get that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
I I actually get that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Yeah, I think that I feel better for when we came
through a shop.
I do.
I do too.
And what I was trying to do inthe year was change the way that
I bought and understand why Iwas doing this.
And you know, you and I were inthe we're in the business of
examining behavior.
So I wanted to go into the storeand meet that feeling of wanting
to buy something, of wanting tohave something.
(06:22):
Because we do a lot of this workaround spending outside of that
feeling of desire, outside ofthat emotional flooding.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
And I thought, yeah, it's allvery easy to go, yeah, when I
see things I want, I'm just notgonna buy them.
But I wanted to go in there andsort of get my little imaginary
petri dish and put that feelingthat comes up when I see
something pretty that I want tobuy.
I wanted to grab onto it andhave a little look under a
(06:44):
microscope.
So I would do this.
I would go into stores and Iwould find things that made me
want to buy them.
Yeah, yeah.
And think, right, what um whatis my brain telling me here?
What conclusions is my brainjumping to?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Then, because I'm nothing if not a stubborn bitch
who was committed to thechallenge with my whole heart, I
would walk away from the shopand not buy it.
And then I would observe whatwould happen after that.
And as time went on, were thosestories my brain was telling me
true?
No.
Was all of the weight that I putonto that thing, all of the ways
I told myself that this thingwas so great, did I still care
(07:20):
about it in a week's time?
No.
All of the ways I would tellmyself it's unique, I might not
find anything else like it.
And that's would I findsomething else the next day?
Yes, I always did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
The urgency bias, of course, and you know, loss
aversion, loss aversion isabsolutely huge.
And of course, they absolutelyplug into that with you know, if
you the brain is very attuned tothe the sense of urgency and the
sense of lack.
So this is the only time I'mgoing to be able to buy that
(07:51):
particular burgundy skirt thathas that nice satin finish on a
bias cut because there willnever in the whole history of
the world be another one likeit.
And I'll tell you what thinkingthat goes through my mind is I
deal with corporate clients, andI say to myself, I can't turn up
(08:12):
in something that's, you know,I've had on before.
Oh, right.
And also that people are lookingat me and evaluating how
successful I am, yeah, you know,by the quality of the clothes
that I wear.
And that's just also a lie, isthat post-rationalizing?
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
It's funny you say about the um the wearing things
again.
This is a really big thing forpeople, um, not wanting to be
seen to outfit repeat.
It's all that, it's all thatconditioning from celebrities
that were mocked for it in thein the magazines and media that
would criticize women forwearing the same thing again.
But I have a whole sort ofreflection in the book having
(08:51):
outfit repeated exclusively foran entire year.
I now see But did people notice?
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
No, because I think that my clients would go, oh my
god, what is she wearing?
She wore that two Wednesdaysago.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
No, I really kind of reframed it for myself.
One in that people don't noticeas much as we think that they do
because we notice ourselves somuch more.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
That's the spotlight effect.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
Right?
We're so exquisitely involved inour own reality, we think
everybody else must be deeplyengaged in what's going on for
us.
But of course, everybody isincredibly self-centered.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
Exactly.
They're worrying about whetheryou can tell what they wore last
Wednesday.
Yeah, and I can't.
I can't.
Absolutely, yeah.
That's absolutely right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But the other kind of aspect ofit was as I did start to find
things that I loved, and as Idid have to, you know, I also do
workshops, presentations,speaking events, uh, book
launches, that kind of thing, Idid have to outfit repeat and
(09:50):
wear the same thing as I, youknow, had less options to wear.
And especially even now whereI'm building out my wardrobe
very mindfully based on who Ireally am, rather than this
fantasy self, because I had thiswardrobe of artifacts of
everything I wasn't.
And I kind of developed thisfeeling of what a privilege it
(10:11):
is to have something I love somuch that I'm happy to wear
again and again and again.
What a privilege it is.
It's a really lovely way ofthinking of it because now,
where previously I would go, oh,I've got an event to go to.
That's an excuse to buy a newoutfit.
Yay! Now I go, I've got an eventto go to.
I cannot wait to wear thatorange dress.
(10:33):
And I'm actually outfitrepeating at the book launch for
the wardrobe project with thedress I wore to the release of
my last book because I love thatdress so much and what a
privilege it is to wear itagain.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
It's it's not I have to wear that again, it's I get
to wear that again.
SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Right?
And that's a really, really goodreframe.
And I think you talk aboutenoughness.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
Enoughness is a big theme of the book, and I realize
this sort of connection betweennot feeling like we have enough
clothes, being linked to notfeeling like we are enough in
ourselves.
100%.
And I think that feeling ofchanging my body image during
the year came down to the factthat doing the challenge, the
(11:22):
very nature of committing to it,was me saying, I have enough.
I can get through the yearwithout more.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
And I really like I because I've got a really a big
button for me is all the palavaabout self-love.
I really don't like it.
I think it's unattainable.
I don't know what it means.
I wouldn't know what that feltlike.
And I think it's just anotherthing that we can fail at.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Um, you know, I don't have enough self-love and
I've got to sit on an ashram andtriggering, I don't know what I
have to do, drink mink tea orsomething.
So um drives me crazy.
So I I I always say, you know,you know, just you know, on some
days, just like yourself enough.
And maybe that's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Let's not give ourselves yet another
unattainable goal of achievingself-love because no one really
knows what it is.
And life is full of ups anddowns and you know, upheavals,
and you're going to feeldifferent on any given day,
yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
Yeah, and you know, you can't take the fish out of
water.
The the standards that we'resurrounded by are still there.
We can't, you know, we're stillsurrounded by all of these
standards, we're stillsurrounded by women being
criticized, we're stillsurrounded by, you know, the
reality that people that aremore conventionally attractive
earn more and do better in jobinterviews and are seen to be
more trustworthy and moresocial.
(12:44):
All of those human biases arestill there.
So we still, we can't shameourselves for having to, you
know, play play the game in thearena that that we're in.
You know, we we it's one thingto go, oh, just love yourself.
You don't have to wear makeup.
But if you've got a jobinterview tomorrow and you
think, oh, I should probably puta bit of makeup on, of course
you're gonna put a bit of makeupon.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
We exist in a world that has, you know, whether or
not the expectations arerealistic or not, the
expectations are there.
We live in contexts that arebigger than us.
So it is ridiculous to say itdoesn't matter what you look
like, because yes, it does,because we know that we make
blindingly quick decisions onwho the person is within about
(13:31):
one second of meeting them,which are probably replete with
cognitive biases.
You know, whether or not you canmake a decision on whether or
not you trust somebody or likesomebody within a couple of
seconds after knowing absolutelynothing about them because
you're just going through theback blocks of your brain and
pulling out similar umqualities, right?
So we live in this very biased,quick thinking world.
(13:55):
So we have to do the best wecan.
Absolutely, you know, but withinthat, we also then layer that up
with unrealistic expectationsthat we have put on ourselves
that are actually not connectedto the externals.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
Yeah, I think that we do.
I think that um I mentioned inthe book how chasing standards
can sometimes become a comfortzone.
Obviously, comfort zones are allabout familiarity, not
necessarily.
What do you mean by that?
Well, comfort zones are thingsthat are familiar, and I think
sometimes feeling like we're notgood enough and rolling the dice
(14:35):
on the next fix that will makeus good enough becomes almost an
addiction.
Um, I was definitely, definitelyin that space with my body, you
know, anything that I could do,or with my confidence, really,
anything that I could do to fixit, that thrill of the
possibility and the potentialchange almost became something
(14:58):
that was more, almost becamesomething that I was more
attached to than ever just thanjust accepting myself and
letting go of the standards.
What I've done since is, youknow, as we say, we do the best
we can.
It's not about saying just loveyourself and don't wear makeup.
But something I've been thinkingabout a lot since the project
and and just in my life ingeneral, both with clothes and
(15:20):
with beauty and overallpresentation, is I try and be
really wary of how much of it isreally for me and how much of it
is purely because I think that Ishould.
Because when I wear makeup, yes,there's a huge standard to that.
Or when I put on a nice outfit,there's a big part of it that's
me living up to a standard.
But at the same time, there's aco-benefit that I do love that
(15:42):
dress, or I do love playing withmy orange eyeshadows.
There's a, there is something init for me.
I do get some joy out of that.
Whereas when it comes to, youknow, everybody my age is
getting Botox at the moment.
And I thought, well, I guess I'mgonna have to get Botox then.
And then I thought I thoughtabout it and I thought no part
of me wants to go and do this.
I'm doing it because I feel likeI should.
(16:04):
And for me, that's the definingline.
If I don't get anything out ofit for myself, and especially
this work I've done on cominghome to myself and liking
myself, I don't do it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
So you interrogate what you're doing, because so
many of these decisions come outof the limbic system, right?
And then we justpost-rationalise it in the
prefrontal cortex.
So, what it seems you're doingis when you have some of these
thoughts that appear to come outof the emotional part of your
brain, you're reallyinterrogating them and putting
them through a filter of why amI doing this?
(16:38):
Am I doing this because ofsocietal expectations, because
I'm caught up in somepatriarchal notion of what I
should look like, or am I doingit because I want to?
You know, I notice you've gotreally nice nails.
unknown (16:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
So that makes you happy, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
I love it because it's my orange colour.
However, if I went in there andthey said, Oh, we haven't got
your orange this week, well, I'mnot getting them done.
Because I'm not doing it to havenice nails.
I'm doing it because I thinkthat I should, it makes me more
kept.
I'm doing it because I love tohave my orange nails.
SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Yeah, I I really I I sort of get that.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
Tell me, did you do just withinthe whole managing your body um
uh expectations, did you do awhole lot of yo-yo dieting?
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Yeah, that back in the day I did, yeah.
Yeah, and honestly, I would sayup until really the year of the
project, only since I did theyear have I genuinely not had
intentions of losing weight foraesthetic purposes.
And I recognized that during theyear.
(17:43):
In I think September of the yearI didn't buy clothes, I went
back to the gym because therewas a gym near me and they had
nice classes and things.
And for the first time, I wasgoing because I enjoyed it, and
I was going because it was goodfor my health to go.
Yeah.
I it was the first time I couldgenuinely say that I wasn't body
checking or hoping that weightwould just miraculously fall
(18:05):
off.
I'd gone for health before andfitness before, but there'd
always been that oh imagine ifwe lose loads of weight.
Imagine if I lost 10 kilos.
Yeah, or you know, when you geta new medication, you think, oh
fuck, imagine if the side effectwas weight.
Oh, imagine that.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was the first time I hadn'texperienced that, and that
(18:25):
really has stuck.
And I think that's because itwas a year.
This wasn't a month-long thing,you know.
A year is a really long time.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
It that that is a long time to apply yourself to
something.
Yeah, yeah.
I was just as soon as you knowwhat, as soon as you mentioned
the gym, because I I regularly Igo every morning, which is it's
an interesting don't praise me.
Um, it's it's nothing to do withwillpower.
Um, I'm in a habit, and as weknow, it's it's like you're not
(18:54):
shopping, you get into a habit,and also it's the way I manage
anxiety.
And so if if I I don't go, I'mI'm more anxious, so that's why
I do it.
But as you were talking, as youwere talking, I was going, Oh,
gee, you know, I really do needanother pair of leggings because
um oh, I've done I've got threein the wash.
(19:15):
I began going through the wholething.
Now I've got about 6,000 pairsof leggings, right?
And bra tops.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:24):
But my brain, um as soon as you mentioned gym, yeah,
that's where my brain wentstraight to what sort of
consumerism can I involve myselfin.
And then I see myself, then I goforward, I go.
So when I go to the gym tomorrowand I'm doing this special sort
of training thing, and we're ina competition, and then I can go
to the mall afterwards when Ihave my breakfast.
And after that, that's howquickly my brain goes, and I
(19:45):
think everybody's the same, andthen I can just whip downstairs
um and and get something fromthe gym shop.
But of course, I don't needthat.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
No, and it's not all about what you need, like a lot
of people go, so do you justnever wear anything?
And no, I like nice things, Ilike clothes.
It's all about why you're buyingit and whether or not you have
the option to say no for me.
Because, like you said, youmight notice that, and you might
(20:15):
you you probably have theability to go, I don't need
another pair of things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
I do.
Well, yeah, I do.
And because we've sort of movedhouse into an apartment, um, we
are now or I am now constrainedby room.
Yeah.
And that's so I simply don't,oh, I could then I just start
throwing things out.
I I just want to say at thispoint that I I have never
involved myself in one of those,what are they called?
(20:39):
A Timu um oh yeah, Timu dump,Timu Timu Hall?
Timu hall.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, no, I've never done Timu either.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
Yeah, because and you know, and then and then we
look at the whole ethical thingabout clothing as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Yeah.
That was, and that was, youknow, the real fabulous
collateral benefit of doing thetell me about that.
Well, I had to sort of be honestwith readers at the beginning of
the book that I didn't do thisfor sustainability.
Of course, I knew that it wouldbe a benefit, and that was a
big, you know, driver in mydecision that it will only be a
net positive for the environmentif I don't buy anything for a
(21:16):
year.
Um, but it wasn't asustainability pursuit.
And yet we touch on it in thebook because I wanted to let
people know that I was coming atthis from this behavioral
identity perspective.
Because I think that thesethings that we've talked about
are one of the biggest thingsthat get in the way of people
being able to follow through ontheir sustainability intentions
(21:37):
and upholding their values inthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Because we go, oh, we see the videos and we see the
human exploitation, we see theimpact, and we see how bad the
fashion industry is.
And yet we still go, I have thisurgent feeling of need from this
piece of clothing that I've seenbecause I've got somewhere to go
and I have to look good, and Idon't feel like I look good.
(22:02):
And that's why, you know, I talkin the book about the stats that
between the intentions and theactual behaviors of people
around sustainability, peopleintend to do things, but we
don't follow through on that fora multitude of reasons.
But I think that one of themreally is this deep emotional
connection we have with clothesthat is unfortunately stronger
than our desire to do the rightto hold our values because our
(22:26):
values would mean respectingourselves, and a lot of what
we're doing with our clothingconsumption is actually not
respecting ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, it's just it's isn't it?
It's really detangling yourselffrom that sense of hope for
change, isn't it?
Hope for difference, hope for abetter you that's going to come
with that, you know, that creamknit waist dress that you saw.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
Yeah.
But through doing this work andthrough feeling the way I feel
now, I've removed that fog thatkept going, oh, just buy this
one and then we'll try againnext time to be more
sustainable.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Now that that layer is gone, I'm able to actually
follow through much more on mysustainability intentions of
wearing what I have and buyingthings.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah, you've taken care of the whole dopamine
thing, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
And look, you know, it's like I said, it's still,
you've still got to manage it.
Um, but now I have thatconfidence that I'm able to
manage it.
And sure, I see things, I seepretty things, and I go, oh no,
no, no.
And you know, occasionally I'llI'll give in to that and then
I'll realize and go, actually,no, let's empty the cart.
You know, we don't, we don'twant to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Empty the cart, empty the cart.
I I have one friend who managesmanages the whole process by
just she daily, she just fillsthe cart and then just leaves.
unknown (23:48):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
So she's gone through the process of that's
gonna be, I really need thathandbag, or I really need those
shoes, or I really need thatdress, and then she just never
buys it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
It's uh I think the hardest thing is is I'm almost
very good now at not buying.
The hardest thing is when I dowant or need to buy something,
it's really making sure that I'mdoing that in the right way, and
that it is, excuse me, and thatit is something that will last
and that I will wear because themost sustainable outfit you can
(24:17):
wear is one you already have.
So you can either approach thatby wearing what you have or
buying things that you will wantto wear.
Yeah.
Um, because a lot of us, youknow, like I said, I uncovered
so many mistakes I'd been makingin my wardrobe.
And so there was a little bit ofa recalibration period where I
had all the, I guess, view ofmyself and all the understanding
of wanting to wear what I had,but the clothes that I owned
(24:41):
were fundamentally wrong for mybody.
So I did need to replace it.
100%.
Yeah.
But now that I've done that, youknow, I actually did the year of
not buying again this year withthe things I'd obviously
replaced from the year inbetween.
And it was completely differentthis year because I love my
wardrobe now.
So repeating my clothes was somuch more fun because I love my
(25:02):
stuff more than I love.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
What a successful experiment.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Truly.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
You know how many of us are thinking, you know, the
the next five kilos, or youknow, the next thing I buy, or
the next crossbody bag, or youknow, I've got I've got about 27
bags.
I'm like, I don't, and yet I'mI'm looking at crossbody bags.
I don't need another crossbodybag.
I've got 27 crossbody bags, butit's just the hue.
(25:27):
As soon as we can go, the bag,you know, the clothes, the five
kilos, I'm never gonna getthere.
I'm never gonna get to nirvanawhere I feel confident, like all
the women that see that I seearound me that I presume are
confident and are all strugglingwith the same things, unless
(25:49):
they're a psychopath in whichthey case don't, in which case
they don't feel anything, andwho cares anyway, right?
So you know, we're all repletewith insecurities, and you know,
we all suffer from loss ofconfidence and doubt.
It's what makes us human.
And um, perhaps, you know, tothink we're ever going to get
(26:10):
rid of it.
We can just get closer to thisnotion of who we actually are,
Emma Edwards.
Would you think that's right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Absolutely agree.
It's and again, it's not a loudchange and it's not the flip of
a switch.
No, it's just very, very subtly.
It's great.
Very subtly shifting the waythat you see yourself and seeing
that you actually are enoughwithout all of these external
things.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Now, where can people um buy your book?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
People could buy the book at all major retailers in
Australia as of November 26th.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
So um people can buy your book at all major
retailers.
I strongly recommend women tobuy this book because it is
going to allow you tocognitively unhook from some of
this thinking that we are fusedwith, which is the next thing
(27:01):
that I buy is going to fix it.
And I'm here to tell you from mygrand age that it doesn't work.
So I strongly recommend that youread this book.
It's highly relatable andextremely well written.
I hate you for that.
And I don't resile from that,Emma.
I do not resile from that.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
You're being too kind.
It's uh there are definitelysome patchy parts that I'd love
to go back and rewrite, but suchyou don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Yeah, you'll never do you know what?
With writing, you're never gonnaget there.
It's I I I can rewrite you knowa paragraph for two weeks, and
at some point I've got to go.
You better write the next onebecause that's never going to be
perfect.
Exactly.
On that note, I thank you somuch for coming on.
That was so interesting andinstructive.
(27:49):
And I it's really had a quite aprofound effect on me and my
appalling shopping habits.
I just wish I'd read it earlier,but I didn't.
So there you go.
Thank you so much for Emma forcoming on.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really love this chat.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
And um, maybe you can come on again.
Always, always available.
Delightful.
So thank you so much, listeners,wherever you are in the world.
Um, I wish you well, stay safe,stay well, keep your critical
thinking hats on, and see youlater.
Bye.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
(28:26):
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
(28:46):
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in order to talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in a street, work, in a
bar, or in your own home,please, please respect that gut
(29:10):
feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(29:31):
So until next time, staystarted, stay steady, and keep
your critical thinking outshiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we physically make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and tail smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make a good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, and you're thecompanion.
And as a woman of the turkey,I've made my own chairs really
bad decisions.
And I wish this podcast has beenaround to take me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:50):
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Hello and welcome back to theWhy Smart Women podcast.
This is part two of my interviewwith Emma Edwards and her
fascinating book, The WardrobeProject.
If you haven't listened to partone, I strongly suggest you do
because it provides context forthis second episode.
(01:11):
Enjoy.
So if that's sort of why we doit, how do we how do we stop?
How do we overcome the cognitivebiases?
Because I know we we talkedabout the fact that of course
there's a there's a bigfinancial impact, right, on not
(01:32):
constantly shopping.
But we do know that um having asense of you in the future is
what you need to do in order toum save, eat properly, look
after yourself in whatevercontext.
And yet we also know that whenwe think about our future
selves, the part of the brainthat fires off is the part of
(01:56):
the brain that lights up when wethink about strangers.
So your future self, as you tryand think about it, is a
stranger.
And we certainly with me when Ithink about spending money, um,
it's certainly a stranger that Idon't think I don't care, I
don't care much about.
So that the the sense ofimmediacy of present of the bias
(02:18):
around present focus is verymuch in play.
I can feel it in myself when Iwalk past a shop and I see
something I like.
So the sense of present bias isvery much with me.
So how do we counter that?
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, the first thing it comes down to for me is
recognizing that change is notgoing to be this big crescendo
moment like we see in themovies.
We have been sold this ideathat, you know, it's in all of
the, it's in so many movieswhere a woman undergoes a
makeover or a transformation andthere's a big kind of montage.
(02:53):
Sure.
And then afterwards, when shesupposedly has all these
feelings of confidence andeverything is better, it happens
really, really quickly and it'sthe flip of a switch.
Yep.
When we actually recognize thatchange is a bit like I talked
about when I realized my bodyimage was was better than it had
ever been, it was quiet.
Change isn't actually loud,change isn't these big, massive
(03:16):
shifts.
It's really, really subtledifferences in the way that you
see yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Listeners are used to the fact that yo-yo often has
a bit of a bark.
So I hope that that didn'tdisturb anybody's concentration
too much.
But do do go on.
Yeah, these of course, that thechange you're saying is is
gradual and quiet.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Change is quiet, and I always thought that change
would be loud.
I thought I would wake up oneday and like myself.
I would wake up one day and feelconfident, or I would do one
thing, or buy one thing, orchange one thing about myself,
and then I'd feel confident.
So recognizing that that was anunhelpful expectation was one
(03:54):
thing.
The second thing for me wasbreaking down the difference in
what I thought I was buying andwhat I was actually getting.
What do you mean by that?
Before I talked about thatpossibility that is held within
every new piece of clothing,every time we strive to be the
fantastic self, we strive to getthe positive feeling.
(04:15):
What I recognized when I startedto understand the patterns in my
wardrobe and the commonalitiesin those stories were all of the
times I'd been buying somethingthat I actually wasn't getting.
That made me realize where, youknow, we say we're disconnected
from our fantasy selves.
That actually, rather thantrying to explicitly connect
(04:38):
with the with the future self,it actually kind of taught me
the ways I was robbing mypresent self.
We think we're choosing ourpresent selves, but the present
self isn't really gettinganything either in this
scenario.
We we think, oh, I'm I'm robbingmy future self of this money
because I'm that person's astranger to me and I'm gonna be
able to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Oh, yeah, but it's a trick anyway.
It's a trick, it's a ruse.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Nobody's winning in this situation.
Yeah, we're getting a hit ofdopamine, but it's not really
lasting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, yeah.
It's the hedonic adaptation.
SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
It's just it's just it's it's all just hopeless,
really, isn't it?
So that sort of bridged thatmiddle bit for me of hang on,
all of these things that I thinkI'm doing for myself now, I'm
not actually getting.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
But you would have had to have actually had that
thought while you're stand whileyou're either about to online
shop and say, you know, put itin the basket, or you're
standing in the shop with yourhand on the coat hanger.
So you would have had to haveactually intervened, you would
(05:40):
have had to use metacognition,which is thinking about your
thinking in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
Yes.
So I did what I called exposuretherapy throughout the year,
where I would browse online orgo into stores and look at
things on the you know, peoplego, Oh my god, you're a
masochist.
And no, I get that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
I I actually get that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Yeah, I think that I feel better for when we came
through a shop.
I do.
I do too.
And what I was trying to do inthe year was change the way that
I bought and understand why Iwas doing this.
And you know, you and I were inthe we're in the business of
examining behavior.
So I wanted to go into the storeand meet that feeling of wanting
to buy something, of wanting tohave something.
(06:22):
Because we do a lot of this workaround spending outside of that
feeling of desire, outside ofthat emotional flooding.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
And I thought, yeah, it's allvery easy to go, yeah, when I
see things I want, I'm just notgonna buy them.
But I wanted to go in there andsort of get my little imaginary
petri dish and put that feelingthat comes up when I see
something pretty that I want tobuy.
I wanted to grab onto it andhave a little look under a
(06:44):
microscope.
So I would do this.
I would go into stores and Iwould find things that made me
want to buy them.
Yeah, yeah.
And think, right, what um whatis my brain telling me here?
What conclusions is my brainjumping to?
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Then, because I'm nothing if not a stubborn bitch
who was committed to thechallenge with my whole heart, I
would walk away from the shopand not buy it.
And then I would observe whatwould happen after that.
And as time went on, were thosestories my brain was telling me
true?
No.
Was all of the weight that I putonto that thing, all of the ways
I told myself that this thingwas so great, did I still care
(07:20):
about it in a week's time?
No.
All of the ways I would tellmyself it's unique, I might not
find anything else like it.
And that's would I findsomething else the next day?
Yes, I always did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
The urgency bias, of course, and you know, loss
aversion, loss aversion isabsolutely huge.
And of course, they absolutelyplug into that with you know, if
you the brain is very attuned tothe the sense of urgency and the
sense of lack.
So this is the only time I'mgoing to be able to buy that
(07:51):
particular burgundy skirt thathas that nice satin finish on a
bias cut because there willnever in the whole history of
the world be another one likeit.
And I'll tell you what thinkingthat goes through my mind is I
deal with corporate clients, andI say to myself, I can't turn up
(08:12):
in something that's, you know,I've had on before.
Oh, right.
And also that people are lookingat me and evaluating how
successful I am, yeah, you know,by the quality of the clothes
that I wear.
And that's just also a lie, isthat post-rationalizing?
SPEAKER_00 (08:31):
It's funny you say about the um the wearing things
again.
This is a really big thing forpeople, um, not wanting to be
seen to outfit repeat.
It's all that, it's all thatconditioning from celebrities
that were mocked for it in thein the magazines and media that
would criticize women forwearing the same thing again.
But I have a whole sort ofreflection in the book having
(08:51):
outfit repeated exclusively foran entire year.
I now see But did people notice?
SPEAKER_01 (08:58):
No, because I think that my clients would go, oh my
god, what is she wearing?
She wore that two Wednesdaysago.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
No, I really kind of reframed it for myself.
One in that people don't noticeas much as we think that they do
because we notice ourselves somuch more.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
That's the spotlight effect.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
Right?
We're so exquisitely involved inour own reality, we think
everybody else must be deeplyengaged in what's going on for
us.
But of course, everybody isincredibly self-centered.
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
Exactly.
They're worrying about whetheryou can tell what they wore last
Wednesday.
Yeah, and I can't.
I can't.
Absolutely, yeah.
That's absolutely right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But the other kind of aspect ofit was as I did start to find
things that I loved, and as Idid have to, you know, I also do
workshops, presentations,speaking events, uh, book
launches, that kind of thing, Idid have to outfit repeat and
(09:50):
wear the same thing as I, youknow, had less options to wear.
And especially even now whereI'm building out my wardrobe
very mindfully based on who Ireally am, rather than this
fantasy self, because I had thiswardrobe of artifacts of
everything I wasn't.
And I kind of developed thisfeeling of what a privilege it
(10:11):
is to have something I love somuch that I'm happy to wear
again and again and again.
What a privilege it is.
It's a really lovely way ofthinking of it because now,
where previously I would go, oh,I've got an event to go to.
That's an excuse to buy a newoutfit.
Yay! Now I go, I've got an eventto go to.
I cannot wait to wear thatorange dress.
(10:33):
And I'm actually outfitrepeating at the book launch for
the wardrobe project with thedress I wore to the release of
my last book because I love thatdress so much and what a
privilege it is to wear itagain.
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
It's it's not I have to wear that again, it's I get
to wear that again.
SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
Right?
And that's a really, really goodreframe.
And I think you talk aboutenoughness.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
Enoughness is a big theme of the book, and I realize
this sort of connection betweennot feeling like we have enough
clothes, being linked to notfeeling like we are enough in
ourselves.
100%.
And I think that feeling ofchanging my body image during
the year came down to the factthat doing the challenge, the
(11:22):
very nature of committing to it,was me saying, I have enough.
I can get through the yearwithout more.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
And I really like I because I've got a really a big
button for me is all the palavaabout self-love.
I really don't like it.
I think it's unattainable.
I don't know what it means.
I wouldn't know what that feltlike.
And I think it's just anotherthing that we can fail at.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Um, you know, I don't have enough self-love and
I've got to sit on an ashram andtriggering, I don't know what I
have to do, drink mink tea orsomething.
So um drives me crazy.
So I I I always say, you know,you know, just you know, on some
days, just like yourself enough.
And maybe that's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Let's not give ourselves yet another
unattainable goal of achievingself-love because no one really
knows what it is.
And life is full of ups anddowns and you know, upheavals,
and you're going to feeldifferent on any given day,
yeah?
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
Yeah, and you know, you can't take the fish out of
water.
The the standards that we'resurrounded by are still there.
We can't, you know, we're stillsurrounded by all of these
standards, we're stillsurrounded by women being
criticized, we're stillsurrounded by, you know, the
reality that people that aremore conventionally attractive
earn more and do better in jobinterviews and are seen to be
more trustworthy and moresocial.
(12:44):
All of those human biases arestill there.
So we still, we can't shameourselves for having to, you
know, play play the game in thearena that that we're in.
You know, we we it's one thingto go, oh, just love yourself.
You don't have to wear makeup.
But if you've got a jobinterview tomorrow and you
think, oh, I should probably puta bit of makeup on, of course
you're gonna put a bit of makeupon.
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
We exist in a world that has, you know, whether or
not the expectations arerealistic or not, the
expectations are there.
We live in contexts that arebigger than us.
So it is ridiculous to say itdoesn't matter what you look
like, because yes, it does,because we know that we make
blindingly quick decisions onwho the person is within about
(13:31):
one second of meeting them,which are probably replete with
cognitive biases.
You know, whether or not you canmake a decision on whether or
not you trust somebody or likesomebody within a couple of
seconds after knowing absolutelynothing about them because
you're just going through theback blocks of your brain and
pulling out similar umqualities, right?
So we live in this very biased,quick thinking world.
(13:55):
So we have to do the best wecan.
Absolutely, you know, but withinthat, we also then layer that up
with unrealistic expectationsthat we have put on ourselves
that are actually not connectedto the externals.
Do you agree?
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
Yeah, I think that we do.
I think that um I mentioned inthe book how chasing standards
can sometimes become a comfortzone.
Obviously, comfort zones are allabout familiarity, not
necessarily.
What do you mean by that?
Well, comfort zones are thingsthat are familiar, and I think
sometimes feeling like we're notgood enough and rolling the dice
(14:35):
on the next fix that will makeus good enough becomes almost an
addiction.
Um, I was definitely, definitelyin that space with my body, you
know, anything that I could do,or with my confidence, really,
anything that I could do to fixit, that thrill of the
possibility and the potentialchange almost became something
(14:58):
that was more, almost becamesomething that I was more
attached to than ever just thanjust accepting myself and
letting go of the standards.
What I've done since is, youknow, as we say, we do the best
we can.
It's not about saying just loveyourself and don't wear makeup.
But something I've been thinkingabout a lot since the project
and and just in my life ingeneral, both with clothes and
(15:20):
with beauty and overallpresentation, is I try and be
really wary of how much of it isreally for me and how much of it
is purely because I think that Ishould.
Because when I wear makeup, yes,there's a huge standard to that.
Or when I put on a nice outfit,there's a big part of it that's
me living up to a standard.
But at the same time, there's aco-benefit that I do love that
(15:42):
dress, or I do love playing withmy orange eyeshadows.
There's a, there is something init for me.
I do get some joy out of that.
Whereas when it comes to, youknow, everybody my age is
getting Botox at the moment.
And I thought, well, I guess I'mgonna have to get Botox then.
And then I thought I thoughtabout it and I thought no part
of me wants to go and do this.
I'm doing it because I feel likeI should.
(16:04):
And for me, that's the definingline.
If I don't get anything out ofit for myself, and especially
this work I've done on cominghome to myself and liking
myself, I don't do it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
So you interrogate what you're doing, because so
many of these decisions come outof the limbic system, right?
And then we justpost-rationalise it in the
prefrontal cortex.
So, what it seems you're doingis when you have some of these
thoughts that appear to come outof the emotional part of your
brain, you're reallyinterrogating them and putting
them through a filter of why amI doing this?
(16:38):
Am I doing this because ofsocietal expectations, because
I'm caught up in somepatriarchal notion of what I
should look like, or am I doingit because I want to?
You know, I notice you've gotreally nice nails.
unknown (16:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
So that makes you happy, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
I love it because it's my orange colour.
However, if I went in there andthey said, Oh, we haven't got
your orange this week, well, I'mnot getting them done.
Because I'm not doing it to havenice nails.
I'm doing it because I thinkthat I should, it makes me more
kept.
I'm doing it because I love tohave my orange nails.
SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Yeah, I I really I I sort of get that.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
Tell me, did you do just withinthe whole managing your body um
uh expectations, did you do awhole lot of yo-yo dieting?
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Yeah, that back in the day I did, yeah.
Yeah, and honestly, I would sayup until really the year of the
project, only since I did theyear have I genuinely not had
intentions of losing weight foraesthetic purposes.
And I recognized that during theyear.
(17:43):
In I think September of the yearI didn't buy clothes, I went
back to the gym because therewas a gym near me and they had
nice classes and things.
And for the first time, I wasgoing because I enjoyed it, and
I was going because it was goodfor my health to go.
Yeah.
I it was the first time I couldgenuinely say that I wasn't body
checking or hoping that weightwould just miraculously fall
(18:05):
off.
I'd gone for health before andfitness before, but there'd
always been that oh imagine ifwe lose loads of weight.
Imagine if I lost 10 kilos.
Yeah, or you know, when you geta new medication, you think, oh
fuck, imagine if the side effectwas weight.
Oh, imagine that.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was the first time I hadn'texperienced that, and that
(18:25):
really has stuck.
And I think that's because itwas a year.
This wasn't a month-long thing,you know.
A year is a really long time.
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
It that that is a long time to apply yourself to
something.
Yeah, yeah.
I was just as soon as you knowwhat, as soon as you mentioned
the gym, because I I regularly Igo every morning, which is it's
an interesting don't praise me.
Um, it's it's nothing to do withwillpower.
Um, I'm in a habit, and as weknow, it's it's like you're not
(18:54):
shopping, you get into a habit,and also it's the way I manage
anxiety.
And so if if I I don't go, I'mI'm more anxious, so that's why
I do it.
But as you were talking, as youwere talking, I was going, Oh,
gee, you know, I really do needanother pair of leggings because
um oh, I've done I've got threein the wash.
(19:15):
I began going through the wholething.
Now I've got about 6,000 pairsof leggings, right?
And bra tops.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:24):
But my brain, um as soon as you mentioned gym, yeah,
that's where my brain wentstraight to what sort of
consumerism can I involve myselfin.
And then I see myself, then I goforward, I go.
So when I go to the gym tomorrowand I'm doing this special sort
of training thing, and we're ina competition, and then I can go
to the mall afterwards when Ihave my breakfast.
And after that, that's howquickly my brain goes, and I
(19:45):
think everybody's the same, andthen I can just whip downstairs
um and and get something fromthe gym shop.
But of course, I don't needthat.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
No, and it's not all about what you need, like a lot
of people go, so do you justnever wear anything?
And no, I like nice things, Ilike clothes.
It's all about why you're buyingit and whether or not you have
the option to say no for me.
Because, like you said, youmight notice that, and you might
(20:15):
you you probably have theability to go, I don't need
another pair of things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
I do.
Well, yeah, I do.
And because we've sort of movedhouse into an apartment, um, we
are now or I am now constrainedby room.
Yeah.
And that's so I simply don't,oh, I could then I just start
throwing things out.
I I just want to say at thispoint that I I have never
involved myself in one of those,what are they called?
(20:39):
A Timu um oh yeah, Timu dump,Timu Timu Hall?
Timu hall.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, no, I've never done Timu either.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
Yeah, because and you know, and then and then we
look at the whole ethical thingabout clothing as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Yeah.
That was, and that was, youknow, the real fabulous
collateral benefit of doing thetell me about that.
Well, I had to sort of be honestwith readers at the beginning of
the book that I didn't do thisfor sustainability.
Of course, I knew that it wouldbe a benefit, and that was a
big, you know, driver in mydecision that it will only be a
net positive for the environmentif I don't buy anything for a
(21:16):
year.
Um, but it wasn't asustainability pursuit.
And yet we touch on it in thebook because I wanted to let
people know that I was coming atthis from this behavioral
identity perspective.
Because I think that thesethings that we've talked about
are one of the biggest thingsthat get in the way of people
being able to follow through ontheir sustainability intentions
(21:37):
and upholding their values inthat way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Because we go, oh, we see the videos and we see the
human exploitation, we see theimpact, and we see how bad the
fashion industry is.
And yet we still go, I have thisurgent feeling of need from this
piece of clothing that I've seenbecause I've got somewhere to go
and I have to look good, and Idon't feel like I look good.
(22:02):
And that's why, you know, I talkin the book about the stats that
between the intentions and theactual behaviors of people
around sustainability, peopleintend to do things, but we
don't follow through on that fora multitude of reasons.
But I think that one of themreally is this deep emotional
connection we have with clothesthat is unfortunately stronger
than our desire to do the rightto hold our values because our
(22:26):
values would mean respectingourselves, and a lot of what
we're doing with our clothingconsumption is actually not
respecting ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, it's just it's isn't it?
It's really detangling yourselffrom that sense of hope for
change, isn't it?
Hope for difference, hope for abetter you that's going to come
with that, you know, that creamknit waist dress that you saw.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
Yeah.
But through doing this work andthrough feeling the way I feel
now, I've removed that fog thatkept going, oh, just buy this
one and then we'll try againnext time to be more
sustainable.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Now that that layer is gone, I'm able to actually
follow through much more on mysustainability intentions of
wearing what I have and buyingthings.
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah, you've taken care of the whole dopamine
thing, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
And look, you know, it's like I said, it's still,
you've still got to manage it.
Um, but now I have thatconfidence that I'm able to
manage it.
And sure, I see things, I seepretty things, and I go, oh no,
no, no.
And you know, occasionally I'llI'll give in to that and then
I'll realize and go, actually,no, let's empty the cart.
You know, we don't, we don'twant to.
SPEAKER_01 (23:38):
Empty the cart, empty the cart.
I I have one friend who managesmanages the whole process by
just she daily, she just fillsthe cart and then just leaves.
unknown (23:48):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
So she's gone through the process of that's
gonna be, I really need thathandbag, or I really need those
shoes, or I really need thatdress, and then she just never
buys it.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
It's uh I think the hardest thing is is I'm almost
very good now at not buying.
The hardest thing is when I dowant or need to buy something,
it's really making sure that I'mdoing that in the right way, and
that it is, excuse me, and thatit is something that will last
and that I will wear because themost sustainable outfit you can
(24:17):
wear is one you already have.
So you can either approach thatby wearing what you have or
buying things that you will wantto wear.
Yeah.
Um, because a lot of us, youknow, like I said, I uncovered
so many mistakes I'd been makingin my wardrobe.
And so there was a little bit ofa recalibration period where I
had all the, I guess, view ofmyself and all the understanding
of wanting to wear what I had,but the clothes that I owned
(24:41):
were fundamentally wrong for mybody.
So I did need to replace it.
100%.
Yeah.
But now that I've done that, youknow, I actually did the year of
not buying again this year withthe things I'd obviously
replaced from the year inbetween.
And it was completely differentthis year because I love my
wardrobe now.
So repeating my clothes was somuch more fun because I love my
(25:02):
stuff more than I love.
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
What a successful experiment.
SPEAKER_00 (25:06):
Truly.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
You know how many of us are thinking, you know, the
the next five kilos, or youknow, the next thing I buy, or
the next crossbody bag, or youknow, I've got I've got about 27
bags.
I'm like, I don't, and yet I'mI'm looking at crossbody bags.
I don't need another crossbodybag.
I've got 27 crossbody bags, butit's just the hue.
(25:27):
As soon as we can go, the bag,you know, the clothes, the five
kilos, I'm never gonna getthere.
I'm never gonna get to nirvanawhere I feel confident, like all
the women that see that I seearound me that I presume are
confident and are all strugglingwith the same things, unless
(25:49):
they're a psychopath in whichthey case don't, in which case
they don't feel anything, andwho cares anyway, right?
So you know, we're all repletewith insecurities, and you know,
we all suffer from loss ofconfidence and doubt.
It's what makes us human.
And um, perhaps, you know, tothink we're ever going to get
(26:10):
rid of it.
We can just get closer to thisnotion of who we actually are,
Emma Edwards.
Would you think that's right?
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Absolutely agree.
It's and again, it's not a loudchange and it's not the flip of
a switch.
No, it's just very, very subtly.
It's great.
Very subtly shifting the waythat you see yourself and seeing
that you actually are enoughwithout all of these external
things.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Now, where can people um buy your book?
SPEAKER_00 (26:34):
People could buy the book at all major retailers in
Australia as of November 26th.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
So um people can buy your book at all major
retailers.
I strongly recommend women tobuy this book because it is
going to allow you tocognitively unhook from some of
this thinking that we are fusedwith, which is the next thing
(27:01):
that I buy is going to fix it.
And I'm here to tell you from mygrand age that it doesn't work.
So I strongly recommend that youread this book.
It's highly relatable andextremely well written.
I hate you for that.
And I don't resile from that,Emma.
I do not resile from that.
I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
You're being too kind.
It's uh there are definitelysome patchy parts that I'd love
to go back and rewrite, but suchyou don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (27:28):
Yeah, you'll never do you know what?
With writing, you're never gonnaget there.
It's I I I can rewrite you knowa paragraph for two weeks, and
at some point I've got to go.
You better write the next onebecause that's never going to be
perfect.
Exactly.
On that note, I thank you somuch for coming on.
That was so interesting andinstructive.
(27:49):
And I it's really had a quite aprofound effect on me and my
appalling shopping habits.
I just wish I'd read it earlier,but I didn't.
So there you go.
Thank you so much for Emma forcoming on.
SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really love this chat.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
And um, maybe you can come on again.
Always, always available.
Delightful.
So thank you so much, listeners,wherever you are in the world.
Um, I wish you well, stay safe,stay well, keep your critical
thinking hats on, and see youlater.
Bye.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
(28:26):
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
(28:46):
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in order to talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in a street, work, in a
bar, or in your own home,please, please respect that gut
(29:10):
feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(29:31):
So until next time, staystarted, stay steady, and keep
your critical thinking outshiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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