October 20, 2025 • 39 mins
A sweltering spring day, a newly minted dog beach, and one missing ball turn into a bigger question: why do we try to control what can’t be controlled? We head to Mona Vale where hundreds of dogs sprint through the surf and most humans smile—until a few arrive with tight rules, tight lips, and the belief that public spaces should run to their personal script. That tiny friction becomes our doorway into manners, shared spaces, and the sneaky sentence that fuels so much outrage: “this shouldn’t be happening.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships to careerchoices to finances to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of the day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I am a covenant,and as a woman of a turkey, I've
made my own care of really baddecisions.
Not as good after.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to take me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DWine, the northern beaches of
Sydney, New South Wales,Australia, and it's now
(01:05):
mid-spring, and it's boilinghot, isn't it, David?
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
Hello, Henny.
Yes, it is.
It's a hot day today.
High 30s out in Western Sydneytoday.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
It feels like high thirties here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
It's a it's a it's a it's an early hot day for um for
for spring in Sydney.
Gotta say I'm enjoying it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
Yeah, I don't mind it either.
It's been a pretty bad wetwinter and cold winter.
So well, you know, not byCanadian standards where a lot
of our listeners are, butanyway, here's the thing is that
the heat has arrived and with itour visits to the beach.
And the thing that has happenedhere in the Northern Beaches.
SPEAKER_02 (01:44):
Oh, the tremendous development.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
It's a tremendous development.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Oh, yes, very exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
The exciting thing is that the Northern Beaches
Council has decided to designateMona Vale surf beach as a dog
beach for certain hours of theday.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Isn't it wonderful when a local council makes a
great decision on the road?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Well, it was it was this is very interesting around
um the notion of people powerbecause it was one person that
agitated.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
Really?
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Yeah, and she started the whole thing rolling.
Of course.
Um so one fantastic resident hadagitated for it, and you could
tell there was hundreds of dogsand and hundreds of people doing
the dog.
SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
Well, Sunday Sunday morning I reckon there would
have been at least three hundreddogs.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yeah, there was.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
And um, you know, one and a half owners per dog,
lots of people on the beach.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, it was it was honestly like being on a movie
set.
So if you are listening and youare on the northern beaches uh
in Sydney and you have a dog andyou were unaware of this, get
down to Monava, have a lookonline and you can see where the
restricted hours are, but getdown to the beach.
So I guess the thing about thebeach is that the dogs in the
main were really, really wellbehaved.
(02:52):
Wouldn't you say?
Oh, all the dogs generically,yeah, no trouble from the dogs.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
The dogs were just being dogs.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
The dogs were being dogs, and the dogs were joyous
and bounding and in the surf andhaving the most awesome time
getting dumped and coming up outof the waves, and it was just
wonderful.
And I would say predominantlythe people as well, um, if you
zoom back from, you know, if youlook back, if you had a high
angle on the whole thing, werealso pretty well behaved.
(03:21):
What would you say?
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
Oh, yeah, I mean well behaved.
I mean, there were no fights,there were no arguments, there
were no No, yeah, we were allwell behaved.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Uh you know, people were m mainly sort of congenial
and easy to get along with andfriendly, would you agree?
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Live and let live.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Live and let live.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
You know, they were they were they were living the
the the principles of let them.
Let the dogs be dogs, let thedog owners be dog owners.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Yeah.
Except for a few.
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Except for a few, and I wonder what what they're
thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
But they've come to a they've come to a a a dog
park, which also is a beach, andyet they want dogs to behave
like Well what happens is soyou'll get a person arriving um
with a ball, and then they willthey will have the dog that is
their dog, and they will throwthe ball for their dog, and then
(04:15):
another dog will intervene inthe process and invariably take
the ball.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, let's let's let's be plain about it.
I mean, Ryder and Yo-Yo are bothshocking ball thieves.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Well, they're both our dogs are ball thieves, but
this is not an uncommon thingbecause I don't know what goes
on in a dog's brain, but itwould seem to be that somebody
else's ball is a lot moreinteresting than your own ball.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
So there, you know, there's a lot of sort of cross
theft going on with dogs andballs.
SPEAKER_02 (04:46):
Yeah, it's it's the bull version of the grass is
greener on the other side of thehead.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yes, the ball is greener on the other side.
So this goes on, and in the forthe most part, a dog will run up
to another dog and take the ballor whatever, and mostly the
owner will go, Oh, it's fine,don't worry about it, except for
a select few people.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
And you're not very happy with those people, are
you?
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
I just don't get it.
Well, I mean, I sort of do getit if I look at it from a sort
of interesting behavioural pointof view.
But if you're going to you soyou walk into this environment
where there's dogs and there'speople and there's balls, and
you walk into this environmentand you decide that you are
(05:32):
going to remain in control ofthe trajectory and the ownership
of the ball.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
This is what happens to the owner.
Oh, yes.
They walk into this environment.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
They get hyper controlling around the ball.
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
They get hyper-controlling around the
ball.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
We paid$15 for that ball, you know.
Do not do not take Fluffy's ballaway from her.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Don't take Fluffy's ball away.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Um, and then what they do is so one of our dogs,
or one of the many other myriaddogs, runs in, grabs the ball,
and runs away with the ball.
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Well, parading it.
Parading the ball.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Because there's ownership.
There's dog pride in ownership,right?
Dogs are awesome.
And then they stand there.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
String lipped.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Very string-lipped.
So it for those of you whoaren't Australian, um,
string-lipped is a veryAustralian term.
Isn't it?
String lipped?
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
I reckon.
I reckon.
Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
String lipped.
And it just it just meanssomebody who has drawn their
mouth into a David's doing itnow, into two thin lines to
express displeasure at what hasjust transpired.
SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
Oh, not just displeasure, it's disapproval.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
It's disapproval.
So what happens is they standthere.
Generally they cross their armsand they stand there with their
lips sort of in these two thinlines.
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Pursed.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
Pur.
I think they're more thin linesthan pursed.
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Okay, okay, fine.
Pursed is different.
This is this is your story?
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, it's our story, darling.
It's our story.
It's our dog's story.
All right.
Anyway, so then what happens iseither David or I, or some other
dog owner, goes to their own dogand attempts to extricate, you
know, the disgusting, slobbery,gummy ball that's been chewed
and is now covered in sand.
Yo-yo, excuse me, I'm tellingthe story.
(07:15):
And then walks back towards theowner, and there's this the walk
of trepidation.
So generally, as you walktowards another owner, you're
waiting for their face to breakinto a smile, right?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Yeah, that kind of yes, we're all dog owners too.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, it's all good.
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
But then what thank you for bringing Fluffy's ball
back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yeah, thank you for that.
And no, don't worry about it.
I don't know, it's a dog park.
You know, that's anyway.
As you walk towards thestring-lipped person, it is the
walk of trepidation.
And and then you get to about a,I don't know, a meter in front
of them and you say so sorryabout Ryder's behaviour.
Um, but he really likes otherpeople's balls.
And instead of smiling at you,they then put their hand out and
(08:01):
say something like, Um, yeah, wejust he we just really like to
just um if that you know, wejust really like to be able to
throw the ball for Alright,yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah, that is our dog's ball.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Yeah, that's it, yeah.
Yeah, that is our dog's ball.
And so you say that, and thenI'd go that is our dog's ball.
I'm s I'm so sorry, just thatyou know, rider has a preference
for other people's balls.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
It's quite an expensive ball, this one too.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Oh okay.
Well s sorry about that.
And then they say nothing.
And then you walk away, andthere's the moment, in my
opinion, has been a little bitruined.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Yeah.
Why why why does it why does itbother you that much?
I mean, you know, it's a shamethat your lovely morning at the
beach has been ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
No, but that's not true.
It hasn't been ruined.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
It hasn't been ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
It's just that moment, I'm like, because I want
to go.
What is wrong with you?
Why would you come to a publicdog beach and then behave like
you're in your own backyard?
If you want to go, if you wantto just be on your own and and
and and have some sort of umsovereignty over the ball, then
just stay in your own backyard,then you won't have to put up
with other dogs.
So then it gets me thinkingabout the notion of
(09:16):
over-control.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
And if you're over-controlled in that
environment, are you alsoover-controlled and controlling
in other environments?
Right.
And what drives that and howhelpful is it, and how much joy
does that actually shut down?
SPEAKER_02 (09:36):
Well, you if if if if if the conversation is about
you know being controlling ingeneral, um sometimes uh people
will feel that they need to bein control if they are actually
responsible for the well-beingof the person in their charge or
the dog in their charge.
So, you know, I know that Isometimes get a bit over
controlling with the dogsbecause I want them to behave.
(09:57):
You know, I make rider go in thelead when he could probably be
Yeah, you're more likely to dothat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
You're more likely to go, the dog isn't behaving
well.
Yes.
Whereas I'm more likely to go,look, it's a frigging public dog
park and their dogs, if he's notbehaving perfectly, oh well.
As long as long as he's notbeing vicious, as long as he
doesn't bite anybody, bite achild, leap up on a person who's
(10:24):
maybe physically couldn't managethat.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
That would be bad.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
If that happened, then that would be different.
But sort of rambunctious, doggystealing behaviour doesn't worry
me, but it worries you more.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Well, well it um no, I I I I feel probably a a a a
greater sense of responsibilityfor the the experience of the
other people on the beach.
So if Ryder does take the ball,if he's being too rambunctious,
yeah I will put him on the lead.
Because I think, you know, it'sjust it's polite, isn't it?
You know, we're in a sharedspace and um I mean they have
(10:58):
come in possibly, you know, youcould argue that they've got a a
heightened sense of entitlement.
Who?
The dog owner who thestring-lipped the string-lipped
dog owner.
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
But why should we then it's an interesting
question.
Why should we then actually umyou know give allowances for
that sense of entitlementbecause what they're trying to
do is micromanage theenvironment.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and you disapprove of theirmicromanagement in that
situation.
Um they're probably you know, itcould be that they're a bit
sensitive, you know, or or itcould be that they're a little
bit frightened, you know,frightened of other dogs or then
don't come to a big public dogexperience.
Maybe they've only justdiscovered that the big public
dog experience is a bit out oftheir control.
And they're doing what anynormal human being would want to
(11:48):
do, and that is assert theirtheir agency in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
You know, this is the owner you're talking about,
not the dog.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
This is the this is the yeah, this is the owner, you
know.
This is Fluffy's ball, and Iwould really appreciate it if
you could keep your dogs undercontrol.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
It's interesting what you say about manners,
because in terms of socialcohesion, we look to rules and
things that are legislated, andthat's what we hit up against if
we decide to have antisocialbehaviour.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
There's rules and there's You make too much noise,
you use bad language, yeah.
There's rules, yeah.
Your your behaviour impinges onthe on the the the comfort of
others.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah, so there's social rules, um, there's
regulations, there'slegislation.
It's interesting what you sayabout manners because manners in
a way are almost more importantbecause they're not regulated.
They're just an they're it'ssomething that the person
(12:48):
personally makes a choice to bewell mannered.
SPEAKER_01 (12:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
Right?
No one can tell you you have tobe well-mannered, there's no
legislation around it.
Yes.
But in s in terms of sort ofsocial glue and social cohesion,
being well managed is is really,really important.
Because it's not it's it's notdictated, it's a personal choice
around it.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
So so the distinction there, um tell me
tell me tell me if I've got thisright.
Um it's a bit like when you'redriving on the road.
You know, the rules are that youstop at a red light.
Correct.
Um, you know, that you you youstop at a giveaway sign that you
indicate when you go left andright.
Those are those are the actuallegislated rules.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:29):
And when you are driving along and you want to
change lanes, yeah, um it's notit's not so clearly legislated
that somebody has to make spacefor you or slow down to let you
change that.
But that's a manner thing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
It's a manners thing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
And I I I know that I get very cross.
Well, I I it I tend to get crosswith the behaviour of other
people on the road when they areill-mannered.
Me too, me too, me too, as youknow.
Yes, I do.
I I tend to be Well, I leteverybody in.
Yeah, we let people in.
We let people in.
We're letting we're letting themin.
Like a zipper.
It's that it's like a zipper.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Come on, guys, let people in.
SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
It's that street sign um that I think they only
have in uh in New Zealand wherethey say, Yeah, let the cars
merge like a zipper for peoplewho can't.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Or did you make that up?
Is that because Ross Andersontold us that once?
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
Like a zipper.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Like a zipper.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
No, no, no.
I do recall it from my time inNew Zealand.
And yes, um, I do notice and Ireflect on, gee, I got really
cranky with that person becauseI felt that they had bad manners
on the road.
And I reckon there's anamplifier with that kind of
drama.
It is when you believe that theother person knows what the
(14:42):
right manners are.
And so you kind of amplify itand you go, okay, not only did
they not let me in, yeah, notonly did they cut me off and
steal that car space, yeah, butthey knew that they shouldn't
have done it, and so I now feelinsulted that this other person
didn't actually give me enoughrespect to be well mannered in
(15:04):
my in my presence.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if we go back to this notionof the the the person in the dog
park.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Or the dog beach.
That's right.
That is is behaving like theyhave agency over everything.
It's just that it's not relaxingfor them either.
Like that would be sounrelaxing.
Yeah.
Like we go down there and it'sjust all all bets are off,
right?
Everyone's just helpingeverybody.
Yeah.
Like someone picked up one ofRyder's poos because I didn't
know he'd done it.
And that was very nice.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
It was very chivalrous.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Well, he had a grodle.
Oh, right.
And I didn't see it happen.
And he said, someone thought itwas my grudel, it was actually
your grudel, so I picked it up.
And and he was so nice about it,and that's lovely.
And that sort of socialgenerosity and social
flexibility and fluidity is whatmakes things fun and awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Exactly.
I had a situation yesterday whenRyder, I'd let Ryder off the
lead, and um we were in a verylarge dog park down by D W DY
Lagoon.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
And um and Ryder, you know, bounded over towards
another bloke, quite a bigbloke, yeah.
Um, who had his own dog.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
And for the very, very first time, um Ryder didn't
actually pull up before heclattered into this bloke.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
And um that's actually a bad thing that he did
there because he's too bad.
He could have absolutely wipedout a small child or a an
octagenarian grandma.
Yeah.
But this guy was big.
And um and I sort of rushed overand apologised it profusely and
uh, you know, complimented himon his large frame and uh all of
that kind of stuff.
You probably overdid it a bit.
I probably did I probablyoverdid it.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
I think you use too many words when it's
unnecessary.
Yeah, well.
You could just go sorry aboutthe dog and move on.
Yeah.
You don't have to turn it into amini-series of apology and
compliments.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Well, you know, I thought that would be more fun.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
That is but that's your way.
That's your way.
SPEAKER_02 (16:51):
But he was terrific.
He said, Oh yeah, no, noproblem.
He was lovely.
No problem, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
And that's what you want, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
That's what we want for from other people, because
occasionally either ourselves orour sorry, either our animals or
ourselves when we are less thanour best, we occasionally um
intrude into other people'squiet and and happy existences.
And and yeah, what do you doabout that?
(17:17):
Do you get really uptight andoutraged when people don't
behave well around you?
Or do you just let it go throughthe keeper?
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Well, as we know, the the the most ridiculous, you
know, impulse that we have isgetting up in the morning and
going about our business andbeing surprised when people
don't behave well.
Right?
It's ridiculous.
Because when have you ever gonethrough a day and everybody has
been awesome?
It just doesn't happen, right?
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
Oh, I've had a couple of nice days with Harry,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
I don't mean Harrison.
SPEAKER_02 (17:49):
Harrison tends to be you know fabulous all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Yeah, Harrison is we're not talking about Harry.
I'm talking about as you gothrough your day.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
Oh, when you bump into like randoms.
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
There's randoms, you know, there'll be somebody that
doesn't let you into a lane oror pushes in front of you or is
rude or says somethinginappropriate to you or
something, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
Some people throw around statistics that say that
you know, 90% of the of thepeople in the world are
fundamentally decent and it'sonly 10% of bastards that you
have to watch out for.
Are you familiar with that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
I just think I think most people are decent.
Most people are decent.
Why why we wouldn't befunctioning.
SPEAKER_02 (18:22):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Society would not, if we were just anarchic and and
and terrible and all out forourselves, then we wouldn't be
functioning, there'd just be,you know, anarchy and death.
Yes.
So I mean the back to thisnotion of um being over
controlling, which means tryingto control someone or something
excessibly, which can manifestas macromanaging manipulation or
(18:44):
a constant need for a specificoutcome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Okay.
Now that so so is this you youyou when you're talking about,
you know, how I put my clothesin the cupboard?
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
How do we get onto that?
We're not talking about youruntidiness and my need for
control around that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Aren't we?
No.
Just read that.
Well, give me that definitionagain.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
No, I'm not gonna not give you that definition
again.
It is well documented.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
You call it messiness, I know, but it's just
it's it's around having things,you know, available and and
within sight.
Cause as you're saying, youknow, when people are over
controlling, it's not such apleasant experience for them.
So maybe you could have a morepleasant experience.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Or and just live in absolute chaos and mess.
No, no, no.
How would Harrison and Ioperate?
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
It's not absolute chaos.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
How would Harrison and I operate if we had to
record the podcast beingsurrounded by half of your
wardrobe on the floor?
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
How how would you cope?
Yes.
Well well, Annie, that is up toyou.
Thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
I I can't tell you that you haveto be developing psych
psychological flexibility.
Um but if you're able toexercise it at that moment, then
it would probably be lessupsetting and destabilizing for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:59):
Anyway, enough about me and you and your messiness
and my need for some order in mylife.
And let's go No, we're not goingback to that.
Okay, no.
Or I'll get or I'll send apicture next time you're left to
your own device and I'll post iton the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (20:15):
I'll forget I'll forget about the messiness.
I will forget about themessiness.
But as we proceed, uh I I mustconfess to you, I'm thinking
about the way that you like tocontrol what I eat.
You know, the like the food thatI consume in your life.
SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
You talk to me about the fact you would like to be
thinner.
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
Sorry?
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Yes, you say, oh Just a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (20:35):
That's a bit personal, Annie.
You say to me, I didn't give youpermission to disclose that you
know that I wish I was ten kiloslighter, you say.
And that's right, and I and Irealise that I'm actually trying
to overcontrol um in thatsituation, and I should just let
my body take the shape that itit it it it's it's headed
towards.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
So what the actual is wrong with you?
What what you just want todescend into some into some
cholesterol um ridden high bloodpressured future.
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Well what make what makes you think that that is my
destiny?
Um if I'm gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Well, why are you worried about the ten kilos?
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Sorry, why do you mention it?
Well, I I I I know that I'd movemore gracefully without it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
You'd go back to your dancing career.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
It'd be less pressure on my knees, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah, you've said all this.
You said I wish I was thinner.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, well, yes.
So this is a result of that's atcertain times, you know.
That have I said, gee, I wish Ihad any looking at everything
that I eat and commenting on it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Alright, I won't anymore.
Okay.
Knock yourself out and eat ablock of cheese.
Just don't eat.
Hang on a second.
Hang on, hang on.
Don't say to me ever again, gee,I wish I was thinner.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (21:45):
That's I'm I'm happy to make that extra mate.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Okay.
Or you can't.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
My five, that's it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Like try again.
Right.
There it is.
Okay, so you don't talk aboutthe fact that your knees are bad
because you've got extra kilosand you and that you can't fit
into your pants.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
I have never I've never complained about not being
able to fit into my pants.
I'm not it's not that bad.
I mean the way that you'retalking about it, it's like I'm
it's like I'm Brendan, what'shis face, from the whale.
Brendan, Brendan Fraser.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
I'm just trying to talk about the woman.
Can I go back to the woman onthe beach?
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
You started talking about being over controlling,
and I was just trying to get asense of whether the over
controlling that you weretalking about was the way that
you relate to me in with respectto the objects that I need in
order to get through life andwhat I eat.
Okay, I'll be quiet.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Thank you.
So, over controlling meanstrying to control someone or
something excessively, which canmanifest.
Do you want it would you likethis to be your podcast?
Is that what you'd like?
I'll give it a shot.
Go on.
We've already mentioned that.
I'm not going back already.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
I heard the term control something uh
excessively.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
It can manifest as micromanaging.
I'm going to ask you to leavethe podcast.
I'm just going to talk about itmyself any minute.
Micromanaging manipulation or aconstant need for a specific
outcome.
So if we go back to the beach,which is what I was talking
about.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Other people now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
You know that married men live longer because
of their wives, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's um it's um it's it'ssurprising, but um, you've told
me that many times.
Where's your source for that?
Who did who did the study?
I'm going to Can you actuallyquote the evidence?
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
I'm going to.
SPEAKER_02 (23:41):
Um not that I need, you know, I trust you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
Anyway, let's just go back to the woman on the
beach.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
The woman on the beach.
The string lipped woman.
How how are you going to tellthis story about your response
to the string-lipped woman onthe beach um without mentioning
you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
I I'm talking about me in relation to her.
Okay, alright.
All right.
Can we just stay in that lane?
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Fatty.
This is the this is the this isthe speck of dust in her eye, is
it?
This is this is this is thespeck of dust in your sister's
eye that you are seeking toremove.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Anyway, so she was looking for a specific outcome.
Yes.
Which was that she would be ableto stand on the beach for Fluffy
and there would be nointeractions with other dogs.
SPEAKER_02 (24:37):
Yeah, no interference.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Now, what happens when that dynamic that we're
talking about there, which isthat micromanaging over
controlling, goes into areaslike domestic abuse, because
it's the same, it's exactly thesame dynamic.
This can I must have controlover my wife and over my
(25:03):
children, and if I don't, I'mgoing to get very, very angry
and string-lipped about it.
Yeah, so I mean, signs of thatover control, and it was a woman
on the beach, but I think therewas also a man on the beach as
well.
So it's this sense of overcontrol of the environment
because I think what happens isthat um the fear of uncertainty,
(25:24):
they do not like being in anuncertain environment.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:27):
Right?
And then what happens is youknow, you get excessive
monitoring, um, jealousy,financial control, and
difficulty accepting change.
Right?
So this what we witnessed on thebeach.
I know you're desperate to getback to me and talking to you
about your mess and your No, no,I've forgotten about that.
Oh, that's great.
It's very flexible of you.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
So, Annie, I think the thing that you've focused on
is the human tendency to to havea to have an urge, an urge to
excessively control things, sothat you can be certain about
you know how the day's going toend or how the visit to the dog
park or the beach is going toend.
Yeah.
So there's this there's thisover reliance on being certain
(26:11):
about what's going to happen.
And then variations to theconditions threaten that in some
way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:18):
And so people get disappointed, they get angry.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Yeah, and I have certainly seen that anger
manifest in men um in that sortof dog park, dog beach
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
Where um it's like this shouldn't be happening, and
I need to reclaim control.
And it just makes me think, Iwonder where that ends.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
What do you know what I think I think the problem
is that this shouldn't behappening?
I think that that's the bit.
Yeah, it's the idea that thisshouldn't be happening.
This shouldn't be happening tome.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
This shouldn't be happening because this is the
you're talking about this isthis is the mindset of the
person with the over control.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, the open control.
And when it becomes thisshouldn't be happening, then
that must rely on someinternalized set of rules that
when I come to the dog park andthrow the ball, no other dog is
allowed to take my ball.
Yeah.
When I drive down this road andI have to change lanes, people
will make space for me.
Yeah.
You know, when I appear inpublic with my other half, I
(27:20):
expect them to behave in acertain way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
This shouldn't be happening.
This shouldn't be happening.
That's that's the under that's areally good thing.
That's the underpinning thought.
This should not be happening.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
Yes.
That's it it reminds me of a umuh uh a friend of mine um years
and years and years.
This is this is thirty years agowhen he was um he was dating a
um uh a lovely young actress,and one day the actress decided
that the relationship was nolonger, so basically she dropped
him.
And he was so he was so angry.
(27:52):
Um the words that he said wasthis goddamn wouldn't happen in
America.
So he was he was a realAmericanophile and sort of you
know fancied himself, right?
Yeah, he was an Australian.
James Dean.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
No, no, no, De Niro.
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Oh, did he?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yeah, he thought he was the Australian version of De
Niro.
Damn, this wouldn't be happeningin America.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
This wouldn't be happening in America because if
we were in America, then youwould recognise that I'm
something specific.
And y and and and you would wantto keep the relationship going.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's right.
And I know who he dropped to, Iremember now.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Yeah, so there's this there's this element of
entitlement.
I'm entitled to people behavingin this environment in the way
that I want them to.
Um I know you don't like metalking about football.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
And I go on.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
But when two football teams from our club, so
I play with Beacon Hill No, hangon.
I play with Manly Alambey BeaconNo, I play with a Lamby Beacon
Hill United, and there areseveral men's teams, and
occasionally we we we have whatwe call the local derby.
(28:59):
And it's the local derbies wherepeople behave much worse than
they do when we're playing anyother team.
People get really angry, um, andthere's you know often fisty
cuffs when we play aside whobelongs to the same club as us,
and I reckon it's because wesort of are entitled to expect
better of our of our own of ourown, you know.
(29:20):
So if they go in for a hardtackle, then you know they've
broken the rule.
And so that's you know, becausewe feel entitled to good
behaviour, that's right, we getangrier, we get more emotional.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think so much of it ispredicated on just intolerance
of change, you know, dislikingsurprises.
Yeah.
So if you go back to the dogbeach, yeah, uh to that phrase
which I think is perfect, whichis this should not be happening.
Yeah, I don't like the surprise.
Why do I have to deal with it?
I just want to come here, have agood time with my dog, and then
(29:52):
go home again.
And now I have to deal withthings, and it's really to do
with rigidity, isn't it?
And of course, often thatrigidity.
Is also so if I look at myexternal environment and I have
a rigid relationship with it,this is the way it should go.
Then I probably have a rigidrelationship with myself.
I'm probablyover-perfectionistic on the
(30:12):
expectations I have of myselfand other people.
And it just, I mean, ifanybody's listening out there
and they're they themselves canrecognize it in themselves or in
their partners, it really doescreate a lot of conflict and
drama and just misery.
(30:37):
The other thing that I noticedwas um that notion when you're
walking, there's a narrowstaircase down to the beach, and
so it's sort of like a a dancewhere someone's walking up and
someone's walking down andsomeone has to move to the side.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
You're balancing holding your thongs and pulling
on the leaves.
SPEAKER_00 (30:57):
And then the dog does a poo in the middle of it,
and you can't do it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
Occasionally you've got to stop and pick it up.
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
And there is that interesting notion where like
you and I will always move outof someone's way.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Make room.
And it's the people that havethat sort of sense of status
that just barrel through.
SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
That'll just keep walking and and sort of give you
the death stare that somehow,how come you're in my way?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
I am trying this should not be happening.
I am trying to get down to thebeach and you are impacting on
my progress.
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
So I mean that sort of over-controlling
over-controlling of theenvironment is just interesting
and doesn't make for a joyous,happy, flexible environment.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You rob yourself of just a senseof peace and um and community by
over controlling those aroundyou.
Can I just contrast what we'vebeen talking about here with our
experience last night?
Um last night Annie and I sortof wandered down to towards the
beach.
Awesome.
And um, you know, we're taking abeach, different beach.
We're taking a bit of a picnicum picnic dinner.
(32:07):
Um and as we were work walkingthrough the you know the various
parks and areas on the waythere, there were so many people
who were out with their familiesand friends having parties.
And I remember there was onegroup of um Chinese women who
were in a circle and they weredancing, you know, dancing to
the left, dancing to the right,clapping, turning around,
(32:28):
laughing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
Having a lovely time.
SPEAKER_02 (32:30):
They were having a terrific time.
There was a group of um youngBrazilians.
You could tell that they wereBrazilians because they were
they were kicking a football,they were standing in a circle
and basically, you know, kickingand heading and kneeing the
football up around.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
In the sort of the late afternoon sunshine.
Late afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
There were people that had put up a um put up
gazebos, gazebos, havingbarbecues.
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Oh, it was awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
And I would say that most of the most of the people
who were taking advantage ofthat evening were people who
were clearly from non-Englishspeaking backgrounds.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Well TY where we live is very multicultural, so I
like it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Lots of Indian families.
I know it's the Wiley at themoment.
Um there were there there arelots of Arabic families, you
know.
There are there are women um whoare sort of, you know, head to
toe while they're swimming withtheir children in the surf.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Um and there was took a photo the other day at
the beach, remember?
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
There was a guy standing on the beach, and then
the rest of his they were in thenot is it the hijab?
The fool.
Yeah, yeah.
And they were in the waterstanding, and he was taking a
photo and I stopped and I and hegot in and the four of them
That's right, you took thephotograph of them.
Yeah, and they were so lovelyand so um grateful.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:42):
Sometimes, sometimes um one of these groups will play
music, you know.
That's so the Chinese ladieswere dancing to music.
Um sometimes the Arabic folkwill uh you know get their music
up and they will dance to that.
Now I can perceive that some ofthe people in that environment
feel they should be entitled toa complete whitebred, you know,
(34:03):
no cultural intrusion, no noise.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
That are some people that live in our environment.
In the environment.
Well, there was, as we know, aswe know yesterday a terrible um
anti-immigration march on inevery um in in every major
capital city in Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
But can I say Do they call it a freedom march or
a Yeah, freedom march, it'santi-immigration.
Yeah, freedom from yeah, I don'tknow, they're just idiots.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
And that they've just rebro they're rebranded
anti-vaxxers, they just got ahate on something.
And um it was very, very badlyattended.
It was sort of really superpathetic.
They're all wrapped in thesenylon Australian flags that were
made in Chinese, and then youknow, and then they go and eat,
you know, Chinese or Indian foodlater.
They're so dumb, it's soinsulting, it's so awful for
(34:52):
because um they blame um massimmigration, which to start off
with is incorrect.
We do not have mass immigration,but they blame the housing
crisis on mass immigration, thewhole thing's just a complete
lie.
Anyway, and then that happened,and then we go down to DY and in
that sort of beautiful lateafternoon, early evening with
(35:16):
that golden light over theparkland.
It was stunning, and the musicand the sound of the different
languages, it was beautiful,wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:24):
And and and and because we don't resist it, we
don't feel entitled to it beingexactly the way that we want, we
get to feel part of a uh aninternational community, yeah,
which is which is irreplaceable,it's priceless.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Multicultural, it's beautiful.
And this this notion of lack ofis lack of um assimilation is
just such a such a dog whistle.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (35:47):
Where do we land on this?
You know, like what what couldwhat can we take away from this
in terms of you know what's awhat's a what's what what's a
good way to approach anysituation where you don't
overcontrol it.
Start to feel okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Okay, so if you if you're looking around your
neighborhood, you know, and yousee there are you know Asian
shops and the Asian peoplefrequent them and and there's
there's people from Brazil andthere's other ethnic cultures.
You know, if you go into someentitled, over-controlled place
and you're going to be unhappy.
So check the data, go to theABS, look at the Australian
(36:22):
Bureau of Statistics andactually see the reality of
immigration as opposed togetting caught up in some
nonsense and just watch for overcontrol.
It's exactly the same as the dogpark.
Yes, watch for over control, letpeople be, and have a nice time.
SPEAKER_02 (36:36):
But but but but that doesn't rob you from the the
ability to also if you seesomething that that genuinely
does make you uncomfortable,like if the music is being
played way, way too loud.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Everything's nuanced, I'm not suggesting you
just you'll just have to be preyto everybody else's wishes.
But where we were yesterday wasa very wide open space and it
was a delightful environment.
So people just cherry-pick theenvironment, use confirmation
bias and say the immigrants areruining everything, it's total
nonsense.
It's like other dogs are ruiningeverything.
Go out into the world and justaccept that you know it's a it's
(37:10):
a varied wonderful, excitingplace to be and just try and
move out of that over controlledspace.
That's my advice.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
Yeah, so less control, more just look at
what's happening and yeah, gowith the flow to see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
So um, thank you for tuning in.
Thank you, David, for yourcontribution.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
Are you sure about that?
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
I I I was you were pretty annoying.
Yeah, and um I will definitelyum I'll just won't mention the
amount of cheese that you'reeating late at night.
Okay?
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Calcium for the bone.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
It's so important, David, to keep that calcium up.
Yeah.
Because God knows you could havea fall.
Yeah, I could.
And because you've shoredyourself up with with with
camember, I think you're goingto be okay.
Yes.
And also the chocolate.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
This podcast is brought to you by Double Brie.
Avoid osteoporosis and eat morecheese.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
It's good.
So from David and I here on thesunny northern beaches of Sydney
in New South Wales, Australia.
Thanks for tuning in.
Stay safe, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
(38:23):
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
(38:44):
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
(39:06):
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(39:27):
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships to careerchoices to finances to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of the day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I am a covenant,and as a woman of a turkey, I've
made my own care of really baddecisions.
Not as good after.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to take me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DWine, the northern beaches of
Sydney, New South Wales,Australia, and it's now
(01:05):
mid-spring, and it's boilinghot, isn't it, David?
SPEAKER_02 (01:08):
Hello, Henny.
Yes, it is.
It's a hot day today.
High 30s out in Western Sydneytoday.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
It feels like high thirties here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
It's a it's a it's a it's an early hot day for um for
for spring in Sydney.
Gotta say I'm enjoying it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
Yeah, I don't mind it either.
It's been a pretty bad wetwinter and cold winter.
So well, you know, not byCanadian standards where a lot
of our listeners are, butanyway, here's the thing is that
the heat has arrived and with itour visits to the beach.
And the thing that has happenedhere in the Northern Beaches.
SPEAKER_02 (01:44):
Oh, the tremendous development.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
It's a tremendous development.
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Oh, yes, very exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
The exciting thing is that the Northern Beaches
Council has decided to designateMona Vale surf beach as a dog
beach for certain hours of theday.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Isn't it wonderful when a local council makes a
great decision on the road?
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Well, it was it was this is very interesting around
um the notion of people powerbecause it was one person that
agitated.
SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
Really?
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Yeah, and she started the whole thing rolling.
Of course.
Um so one fantastic resident hadagitated for it, and you could
tell there was hundreds of dogsand and hundreds of people doing
the dog.
SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
Well, Sunday Sunday morning I reckon there would
have been at least three hundreddogs.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yeah, there was.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
And um, you know, one and a half owners per dog,
lots of people on the beach.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, it was it was honestly like being on a movie
set.
So if you are listening and youare on the northern beaches uh
in Sydney and you have a dog andyou were unaware of this, get
down to Monava, have a lookonline and you can see where the
restricted hours are, but getdown to the beach.
So I guess the thing about thebeach is that the dogs in the
main were really, really wellbehaved.
(02:52):
Wouldn't you say?
Oh, all the dogs generically,yeah, no trouble from the dogs.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
The dogs were just being dogs.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
The dogs were being dogs, and the dogs were joyous
and bounding and in the surf andhaving the most awesome time
getting dumped and coming up outof the waves, and it was just
wonderful.
And I would say predominantlythe people as well, um, if you
zoom back from, you know, if youlook back, if you had a high
angle on the whole thing, werealso pretty well behaved.
(03:21):
What would you say?
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
Oh, yeah, I mean well behaved.
I mean, there were no fights,there were no arguments, there
were no No, yeah, we were allwell behaved.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Uh you know, people were m mainly sort of congenial
and easy to get along with andfriendly, would you agree?
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Live and let live.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Live and let live.
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
You know, they were they were they were living the
the the principles of let them.
Let the dogs be dogs, let thedog owners be dog owners.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Yeah.
Except for a few.
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Except for a few, and I wonder what what they're
thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
But they've come to a they've come to a a a dog
park, which also is a beach, andyet they want dogs to behave
like Well what happens is soyou'll get a person arriving um
with a ball, and then they willthey will have the dog that is
their dog, and they will throwthe ball for their dog, and then
(04:15):
another dog will intervene inthe process and invariably take
the ball.
SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Well, let's let's let's be plain about it.
I mean, Ryder and Yo-Yo are bothshocking ball thieves.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Well, they're both our dogs are ball thieves, but
this is not an uncommon thingbecause I don't know what goes
on in a dog's brain, but itwould seem to be that somebody
else's ball is a lot moreinteresting than your own ball.
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
So there, you know, there's a lot of sort of cross
theft going on with dogs andballs.
SPEAKER_02 (04:46):
Yeah, it's it's the bull version of the grass is
greener on the other side of thehead.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yes, the ball is greener on the other side.
So this goes on, and in the forthe most part, a dog will run up
to another dog and take the ballor whatever, and mostly the
owner will go, Oh, it's fine,don't worry about it, except for
a select few people.
SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
And you're not very happy with those people, are
you?
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
I just don't get it.
Well, I mean, I sort of do getit if I look at it from a sort
of interesting behavioural pointof view.
But if you're going to you soyou walk into this environment
where there's dogs and there'speople and there's balls, and
you walk into this environmentand you decide that you are
(05:32):
going to remain in control ofthe trajectory and the ownership
of the ball.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
This is what happens to the owner.
Oh, yes.
They walk into this environment.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
They get hyper controlling around the ball.
SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
They get hyper-controlling around the
ball.
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
We paid$15 for that ball, you know.
Do not do not take Fluffy's ballaway from her.
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
Don't take Fluffy's ball away.
SPEAKER_02 (05:53):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
Um, and then what they do is so one of our dogs,
or one of the many other myriaddogs, runs in, grabs the ball,
and runs away with the ball.
SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Well, parading it.
Parading the ball.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Because there's ownership.
There's dog pride in ownership,right?
Dogs are awesome.
And then they stand there.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
String lipped.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Very string-lipped.
So it for those of you whoaren't Australian, um,
string-lipped is a veryAustralian term.
Isn't it?
String lipped?
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
I reckon.
I reckon.
Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
String lipped.
And it just it just meanssomebody who has drawn their
mouth into a David's doing itnow, into two thin lines to
express displeasure at what hasjust transpired.
SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
Oh, not just displeasure, it's disapproval.
SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
It's disapproval.
So what happens is they standthere.
Generally they cross their armsand they stand there with their
lips sort of in these two thinlines.
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Pursed.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
Pur.
I think they're more thin linesthan pursed.
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Okay, okay, fine.
Pursed is different.
This is this is your story?
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Well, it's our story, darling.
It's our story.
It's our dog's story.
All right.
Anyway, so then what happens iseither David or I, or some other
dog owner, goes to their own dogand attempts to extricate, you
know, the disgusting, slobbery,gummy ball that's been chewed
and is now covered in sand.
Yo-yo, excuse me, I'm tellingthe story.
(07:15):
And then walks back towards theowner, and there's this the walk
of trepidation.
So generally, as you walktowards another owner, you're
waiting for their face to breakinto a smile, right?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
Yeah, that kind of yes, we're all dog owners too.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, it's all good.
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
But then what thank you for bringing Fluffy's ball
back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yeah, thank you for that.
And no, don't worry about it.
I don't know, it's a dog park.
You know, that's anyway.
As you walk towards thestring-lipped person, it is the
walk of trepidation.
And and then you get to about a,I don't know, a meter in front
of them and you say so sorryabout Ryder's behaviour.
Um, but he really likes otherpeople's balls.
And instead of smiling at you,they then put their hand out and
(08:01):
say something like, Um, yeah, wejust he we just really like to
just um if that you know, wejust really like to be able to
throw the ball for Alright,yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah, that is our dog's ball.
SPEAKER_00 (08:14):
Yeah, that's it, yeah.
Yeah, that is our dog's ball.
And so you say that, and thenI'd go that is our dog's ball.
I'm s I'm so sorry, just thatyou know, rider has a preference
for other people's balls.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
It's quite an expensive ball, this one too.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Oh okay.
Well s sorry about that.
And then they say nothing.
And then you walk away, andthere's the moment, in my
opinion, has been a little bitruined.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Yeah.
Why why why does it why does itbother you that much?
I mean, you know, it's a shamethat your lovely morning at the
beach has been ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
No, but that's not true.
It hasn't been ruined.
SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
It hasn't been ruined.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
It's just that moment, I'm like, because I want
to go.
What is wrong with you?
Why would you come to a publicdog beach and then behave like
you're in your own backyard?
If you want to go, if you wantto just be on your own and and
and and have some sort of umsovereignty over the ball, then
just stay in your own backyard,then you won't have to put up
with other dogs.
So then it gets me thinkingabout the notion of
(09:16):
over-control.
SPEAKER_01 (09:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
And if you're over-controlled in that
environment, are you alsoover-controlled and controlling
in other environments?
Right.
And what drives that and howhelpful is it, and how much joy
does that actually shut down?
SPEAKER_02 (09:36):
Well, you if if if if if the conversation is about
you know being controlling ingeneral, um sometimes uh people
will feel that they need to bein control if they are actually
responsible for the well-beingof the person in their charge or
the dog in their charge.
So, you know, I know that Isometimes get a bit over
controlling with the dogsbecause I want them to behave.
(09:57):
You know, I make rider go in thelead when he could probably be
Yeah, you're more likely to dothat.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
You're more likely to go, the dog isn't behaving
well.
Yes.
Whereas I'm more likely to go,look, it's a frigging public dog
park and their dogs, if he's notbehaving perfectly, oh well.
As long as long as he's notbeing vicious, as long as he
doesn't bite anybody, bite achild, leap up on a person who's
(10:24):
maybe physically couldn't managethat.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
That would be bad.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
If that happened, then that would be different.
But sort of rambunctious, doggystealing behaviour doesn't worry
me, but it worries you more.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Well, well it um no, I I I I feel probably a a a a
greater sense of responsibilityfor the the experience of the
other people on the beach.
So if Ryder does take the ball,if he's being too rambunctious,
yeah I will put him on the lead.
Because I think, you know, it'sjust it's polite, isn't it?
You know, we're in a sharedspace and um I mean they have
(10:58):
come in possibly, you know, youcould argue that they've got a a
heightened sense of entitlement.
Who?
The dog owner who thestring-lipped the string-lipped
dog owner.
SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
But why should we then it's an interesting
question.
Why should we then actually umyou know give allowances for
that sense of entitlementbecause what they're trying to
do is micromanage theenvironment.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and you disapprove of theirmicromanagement in that
situation.
Um they're probably you know, itcould be that they're a bit
sensitive, you know, or or itcould be that they're a little
bit frightened, you know,frightened of other dogs or then
don't come to a big public dogexperience.
Maybe they've only justdiscovered that the big public
dog experience is a bit out oftheir control.
And they're doing what anynormal human being would want to
(11:48):
do, and that is assert theirtheir agency in that moment.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
You know, this is the owner you're talking about,
not the dog.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
This is the this is the yeah, this is the owner, you
know.
This is Fluffy's ball, and Iwould really appreciate it if
you could keep your dogs undercontrol.
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
It's interesting what you say about manners,
because in terms of socialcohesion, we look to rules and
things that are legislated, andthat's what we hit up against if
we decide to have antisocialbehaviour.
Right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
There's rules and there's You make too much noise,
you use bad language, yeah.
There's rules, yeah.
Your your behaviour impinges onthe on the the the comfort of
others.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Yeah, so there's social rules, um, there's
regulations, there'slegislation.
It's interesting what you sayabout manners because manners in
a way are almost more importantbecause they're not regulated.
They're just an they're it'ssomething that the person
(12:48):
personally makes a choice to bewell mannered.
SPEAKER_01 (12:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:52):
Right?
No one can tell you you have tobe well-mannered, there's no
legislation around it.
Yes.
But in s in terms of sort ofsocial glue and social cohesion,
being well managed is is really,really important.
Because it's not it's it's notdictated, it's a personal choice
around it.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
So so the distinction there, um tell me
tell me tell me if I've got thisright.
Um it's a bit like when you'redriving on the road.
You know, the rules are that youstop at a red light.
Correct.
Um, you know, that you you youstop at a giveaway sign that you
indicate when you go left andright.
Those are those are the actuallegislated rules.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:29):
And when you are driving along and you want to
change lanes, yeah, um it's notit's not so clearly legislated
that somebody has to make spacefor you or slow down to let you
change that.
But that's a manner thing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
It's a manners thing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:43):
And I I I know that I get very cross.
Well, I I it I tend to get crosswith the behaviour of other
people on the road when they areill-mannered.
Me too, me too, me too, as youknow.
Yes, I do.
I I tend to be Well, I leteverybody in.
Yeah, we let people in.
We let people in.
We're letting we're letting themin.
Like a zipper.
It's that it's like a zipper.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Come on, guys, let people in.
SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
It's that street sign um that I think they only
have in uh in New Zealand wherethey say, Yeah, let the cars
merge like a zipper for peoplewho can't.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Or did you make that up?
Is that because Ross Andersontold us that once?
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
Like a zipper.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Like a zipper.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
No, no, no.
I do recall it from my time inNew Zealand.
And yes, um, I do notice and Ireflect on, gee, I got really
cranky with that person becauseI felt that they had bad manners
on the road.
And I reckon there's anamplifier with that kind of
drama.
It is when you believe that theother person knows what the
(14:42):
right manners are.
And so you kind of amplify itand you go, okay, not only did
they not let me in, yeah, notonly did they cut me off and
steal that car space, yeah, butthey knew that they shouldn't
have done it, and so I now feelinsulted that this other person
didn't actually give me enoughrespect to be well mannered in
(15:04):
my in my presence.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if we go back to this notionof the the the person in the dog
park.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Or the dog beach.
That's right.
That is is behaving like theyhave agency over everything.
It's just that it's not relaxingfor them either.
Like that would be sounrelaxing.
Yeah.
Like we go down there and it'sjust all all bets are off,
right?
Everyone's just helpingeverybody.
Yeah.
Like someone picked up one ofRyder's poos because I didn't
know he'd done it.
And that was very nice.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
It was very chivalrous.
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Well, he had a grodle.
Oh, right.
And I didn't see it happen.
And he said, someone thought itwas my grudel, it was actually
your grudel, so I picked it up.
And and he was so nice about it,and that's lovely.
And that sort of socialgenerosity and social
flexibility and fluidity is whatmakes things fun and awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Exactly.
I had a situation yesterday whenRyder, I'd let Ryder off the
lead, and um we were in a verylarge dog park down by D W DY
Lagoon.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
And um and Ryder, you know, bounded over towards
another bloke, quite a bigbloke, yeah.
Um, who had his own dog.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
And for the very, very first time, um Ryder didn't
actually pull up before heclattered into this bloke.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
And um that's actually a bad thing that he did
there because he's too bad.
He could have absolutely wipedout a small child or a an
octagenarian grandma.
Yeah.
But this guy was big.
And um and I sort of rushed overand apologised it profusely and
uh, you know, complimented himon his large frame and uh all of
that kind of stuff.
You probably overdid it a bit.
I probably did I probablyoverdid it.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
I think you use too many words when it's
unnecessary.
Yeah, well.
You could just go sorry aboutthe dog and move on.
Yeah.
You don't have to turn it into amini-series of apology and
compliments.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Well, you know, I thought that would be more fun.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
That is but that's your way.
That's your way.
SPEAKER_02 (16:51):
But he was terrific.
He said, Oh yeah, no, noproblem.
He was lovely.
No problem, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
And that's what you want, right?
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
That's what we want for from other people, because
occasionally either ourselves orour sorry, either our animals or
ourselves when we are less thanour best, we occasionally um
intrude into other people'squiet and and happy existences.
And and yeah, what do you doabout that?
(17:17):
Do you get really uptight andoutraged when people don't
behave well around you?
Or do you just let it go throughthe keeper?
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Well, as we know, the the the most ridiculous, you
know, impulse that we have isgetting up in the morning and
going about our business andbeing surprised when people
don't behave well.
Right?
It's ridiculous.
Because when have you ever gonethrough a day and everybody has
been awesome?
It just doesn't happen, right?
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
Oh, I've had a couple of nice days with Harry,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
I don't mean Harrison.
SPEAKER_02 (17:49):
Harrison tends to be you know fabulous all the time.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Yeah, Harrison is we're not talking about Harry.
I'm talking about as you gothrough your day.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
Oh, when you bump into like randoms.
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
There's randoms, you know, there'll be somebody that
doesn't let you into a lane oror pushes in front of you or is
rude or says somethinginappropriate to you or
something, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:06):
Some people throw around statistics that say that
you know, 90% of the of thepeople in the world are
fundamentally decent and it'sonly 10% of bastards that you
have to watch out for.
Are you familiar with that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
I just think I think most people are decent.
Most people are decent.
Why why we wouldn't befunctioning.
SPEAKER_02 (18:22):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Society would not, if we were just anarchic and and
and terrible and all out forourselves, then we wouldn't be
functioning, there'd just be,you know, anarchy and death.
Yes.
So I mean the back to thisnotion of um being over
controlling, which means tryingto control someone or something
excessibly, which can manifestas macromanaging manipulation or
(18:44):
a constant need for a specificoutcome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Okay.
Now that so so is this you youyou when you're talking about,
you know, how I put my clothesin the cupboard?
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
How do we get onto that?
We're not talking about youruntidiness and my need for
control around that.
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Aren't we?
No.
Just read that.
Well, give me that definitionagain.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
No, I'm not gonna not give you that definition
again.
It is well documented.
SPEAKER_02 (19:10):
You call it messiness, I know, but it's just
it's it's around having things,you know, available and and
within sight.
Cause as you're saying, youknow, when people are over
controlling, it's not such apleasant experience for them.
So maybe you could have a morepleasant experience.
SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Or and just live in absolute chaos and mess.
No, no, no.
How would Harrison and Ioperate?
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
It's not absolute chaos.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
How would Harrison and I operate if we had to
record the podcast beingsurrounded by half of your
wardrobe on the floor?
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
How how would you cope?
Yes.
Well well, Annie, that is up toyou.
Thank you for that.
Thank you for that.
I I can't tell you that you haveto be developing psych
psychological flexibility.
Um but if you're able toexercise it at that moment, then
it would probably be lessupsetting and destabilizing for
you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:59):
Anyway, enough about me and you and your messiness
and my need for some order in mylife.
And let's go No, we're not goingback to that.
Okay, no.
Or I'll get or I'll send apicture next time you're left to
your own device and I'll post iton the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (20:15):
I'll forget I'll forget about the messiness.
I will forget about themessiness.
But as we proceed, uh I I mustconfess to you, I'm thinking
about the way that you like tocontrol what I eat.
You know, the like the food thatI consume in your life.
SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
You talk to me about the fact you would like to be
thinner.
SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
Sorry?
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Yes, you say, oh Just a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (20:35):
That's a bit personal, Annie.
You say to me, I didn't give youpermission to disclose that you
know that I wish I was ten kiloslighter, you say.
And that's right, and I and Irealise that I'm actually trying
to overcontrol um in thatsituation, and I should just let
my body take the shape that itit it it it's it's headed
towards.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
So what the actual is wrong with you?
What what you just want todescend into some into some
cholesterol um ridden high bloodpressured future.
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Well what make what makes you think that that is my
destiny?
Um if I'm gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00 (21:09):
Well, why are you worried about the ten kilos?
SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
Sorry, why do you mention it?
Well, I I I I know that I'd movemore gracefully without it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
You'd go back to your dancing career.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
It'd be less pressure on my knees, yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah, you've said all this.
You said I wish I was thinner.
SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, well, yes.
So this is a result of that's atcertain times, you know.
That have I said, gee, I wish Ihad any looking at everything
that I eat and commenting on it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Alright, I won't anymore.
Okay.
Knock yourself out and eat ablock of cheese.
Just don't eat.
Hang on a second.
Hang on, hang on.
Don't say to me ever again, gee,I wish I was thinner.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (21:45):
That's I'm I'm happy to make that extra mate.
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Okay.
Or you can't.
SPEAKER_02 (21:50):
My five, that's it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:51):
Like try again.
Right.
There it is.
Okay, so you don't talk aboutthe fact that your knees are bad
because you've got extra kilosand you and that you can't fit
into your pants.
SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
I have never I've never complained about not being
able to fit into my pants.
I'm not it's not that bad.
I mean the way that you'retalking about it, it's like I'm
it's like I'm Brendan, what'shis face, from the whale.
Brendan, Brendan Fraser.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
I'm just trying to talk about the woman.
Can I go back to the woman onthe beach?
SPEAKER_02 (22:24):
You started talking about being over controlling,
and I was just trying to get asense of whether the over
controlling that you weretalking about was the way that
you relate to me in with respectto the objects that I need in
order to get through life andwhat I eat.
Okay, I'll be quiet.
SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Thank you.
So, over controlling meanstrying to control someone or
something excessively, which canmanifest.
Do you want it would you likethis to be your podcast?
Is that what you'd like?
I'll give it a shot.
Go on.
We've already mentioned that.
I'm not going back already.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
I heard the term control something uh
excessively.
SPEAKER_00 (23:02):
It can manifest as micromanaging.
I'm going to ask you to leavethe podcast.
I'm just going to talk about itmyself any minute.
Micromanaging manipulation or aconstant need for a specific
outcome.
So if we go back to the beach,which is what I was talking
about.
SPEAKER_02 (23:15):
Other people now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
You know that married men live longer because
of their wives, right?
SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's um it's um it's it'ssurprising, but um, you've told
me that many times.
Where's your source for that?
Who did who did the study?
I'm going to Can you actuallyquote the evidence?
SPEAKER_00 (23:39):
I'm going to.
SPEAKER_02 (23:41):
Um not that I need, you know, I trust you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
Anyway, let's just go back to the woman on the
beach.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
The woman on the beach.
The string lipped woman.
How how are you going to tellthis story about your response
to the string-lipped woman onthe beach um without mentioning
you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:03):
I I'm talking about me in relation to her.
Okay, alright.
All right.
Can we just stay in that lane?
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Fatty.
This is the this is the this isthe speck of dust in her eye, is
it?
This is this is this is thespeck of dust in your sister's
eye that you are seeking toremove.
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
Anyway, so she was looking for a specific outcome.
Yes.
Which was that she would be ableto stand on the beach for Fluffy
and there would be nointeractions with other dogs.
SPEAKER_02 (24:37):
Yeah, no interference.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Now, what happens when that dynamic that we're
talking about there, which isthat micromanaging over
controlling, goes into areaslike domestic abuse, because
it's the same, it's exactly thesame dynamic.
This can I must have controlover my wife and over my
(25:03):
children, and if I don't, I'mgoing to get very, very angry
and string-lipped about it.
Yeah, so I mean, signs of thatover control, and it was a woman
on the beach, but I think therewas also a man on the beach as
well.
So it's this sense of overcontrol of the environment
because I think what happens isthat um the fear of uncertainty,
(25:24):
they do not like being in anuncertain environment.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:27):
Right?
And then what happens is youknow, you get excessive
monitoring, um, jealousy,financial control, and
difficulty accepting change.
Right?
So this what we witnessed on thebeach.
I know you're desperate to getback to me and talking to you
about your mess and your No, no,I've forgotten about that.
Oh, that's great.
It's very flexible of you.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
So, Annie, I think the thing that you've focused on
is the human tendency to to havea to have an urge, an urge to
excessively control things, sothat you can be certain about
you know how the day's going toend or how the visit to the dog
park or the beach is going toend.
Yeah.
So there's this there's thisover reliance on being certain
(26:11):
about what's going to happen.
And then variations to theconditions threaten that in some
way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:18):
And so people get disappointed, they get angry.
SPEAKER_00 (26:21):
Yeah, and I have certainly seen that anger
manifest in men um in that sortof dog park, dog beach
environment.
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
Where um it's like this shouldn't be happening, and
I need to reclaim control.
And it just makes me think, Iwonder where that ends.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
What do you know what I think I think the problem
is that this shouldn't behappening?
I think that that's the bit.
Yeah, it's the idea that thisshouldn't be happening.
This shouldn't be happening tome.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
This shouldn't be happening because this is the
you're talking about this isthis is the mindset of the
person with the over control.
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, the open control.
And when it becomes thisshouldn't be happening, then
that must rely on someinternalized set of rules that
when I come to the dog park andthrow the ball, no other dog is
allowed to take my ball.
Yeah.
When I drive down this road andI have to change lanes, people
will make space for me.
Yeah.
You know, when I appear inpublic with my other half, I
(27:20):
expect them to behave in acertain way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
This shouldn't be happening.
This shouldn't be happening.
That's that's the under that's areally good thing.
That's the underpinning thought.
This should not be happening.
SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
Yes.
That's it it reminds me of a umuh uh a friend of mine um years
and years and years.
This is this is thirty years agowhen he was um he was dating a
um uh a lovely young actress,and one day the actress decided
that the relationship was nolonger, so basically she dropped
him.
And he was so he was so angry.
(27:52):
Um the words that he said wasthis goddamn wouldn't happen in
America.
So he was he was a realAmericanophile and sort of you
know fancied himself, right?
Yeah, he was an Australian.
James Dean.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
No, no, no, De Niro.
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Oh, did he?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yeah, he thought he was the Australian version of De
Niro.
Damn, this wouldn't be happeningin America.
SPEAKER_02 (28:11):
This wouldn't be happening in America because if
we were in America, then youwould recognise that I'm
something specific.
And y and and and you would wantto keep the relationship going.
SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that's right.
And I know who he dropped to, Iremember now.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Yeah, so there's this there's this element of
entitlement.
I'm entitled to people behavingin this environment in the way
that I want them to.
Um I know you don't like metalking about football.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
And I go on.
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
But when two football teams from our club, so
I play with Beacon Hill No, hangon.
I play with Manly Alambey BeaconNo, I play with a Lamby Beacon
Hill United, and there areseveral men's teams, and
occasionally we we we have whatwe call the local derby.
(28:59):
And it's the local derbies wherepeople behave much worse than
they do when we're playing anyother team.
People get really angry, um, andthere's you know often fisty
cuffs when we play aside whobelongs to the same club as us,
and I reckon it's because wesort of are entitled to expect
better of our of our own of ourown, you know.
(29:20):
So if they go in for a hardtackle, then you know they've
broken the rule.
And so that's you know, becausewe feel entitled to good
behaviour, that's right, we getangrier, we get more emotional.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think so much of it ispredicated on just intolerance
of change, you know, dislikingsurprises.
Yeah.
So if you go back to the dogbeach, yeah, uh to that phrase
which I think is perfect, whichis this should not be happening.
Yeah, I don't like the surprise.
Why do I have to deal with it?
I just want to come here, have agood time with my dog, and then
(29:52):
go home again.
And now I have to deal withthings, and it's really to do
with rigidity, isn't it?
And of course, often thatrigidity.
Is also so if I look at myexternal environment and I have
a rigid relationship with it,this is the way it should go.
Then I probably have a rigidrelationship with myself.
I'm probablyover-perfectionistic on the
(30:12):
expectations I have of myselfand other people.
And it just, I mean, ifanybody's listening out there
and they're they themselves canrecognize it in themselves or in
their partners, it really doescreate a lot of conflict and
drama and just misery.
(30:37):
The other thing that I noticedwas um that notion when you're
walking, there's a narrowstaircase down to the beach, and
so it's sort of like a a dancewhere someone's walking up and
someone's walking down andsomeone has to move to the side.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
You're balancing holding your thongs and pulling
on the leaves.
SPEAKER_00 (30:57):
And then the dog does a poo in the middle of it,
and you can't do it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:59):
Occasionally you've got to stop and pick it up.
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
And there is that interesting notion where like
you and I will always move outof someone's way.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Make room.
And it's the people that havethat sort of sense of status
that just barrel through.
SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
That'll just keep walking and and sort of give you
the death stare that somehow,how come you're in my way?
SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
I am trying this should not be happening.
I am trying to get down to thebeach and you are impacting on
my progress.
SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
So I mean that sort of over-controlling
over-controlling of theenvironment is just interesting
and doesn't make for a joyous,happy, flexible environment.
SPEAKER_02 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You rob yourself of just a senseof peace and um and community by
over controlling those aroundyou.
Can I just contrast what we'vebeen talking about here with our
experience last night?
Um last night Annie and I sortof wandered down to towards the
beach.
Awesome.
And um, you know, we're taking abeach, different beach.
We're taking a bit of a picnicum picnic dinner.
(32:07):
Um and as we were work walkingthrough the you know the various
parks and areas on the waythere, there were so many people
who were out with their familiesand friends having parties.
And I remember there was onegroup of um Chinese women who
were in a circle and they weredancing, you know, dancing to
the left, dancing to the right,clapping, turning around,
(32:28):
laughing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
Having a lovely time.
SPEAKER_02 (32:30):
They were having a terrific time.
There was a group of um youngBrazilians.
You could tell that they wereBrazilians because they were
they were kicking a football,they were standing in a circle
and basically, you know, kickingand heading and kneeing the
football up around.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:43):
In the sort of the late afternoon sunshine.
Late afternoon.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
There were people that had put up a um put up
gazebos, gazebos, havingbarbecues.
SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Oh, it was awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
And I would say that most of the most of the people
who were taking advantage ofthat evening were people who
were clearly from non-Englishspeaking backgrounds.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Well TY where we live is very multicultural, so I
like it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Lots of Indian families.
I know it's the Wiley at themoment.
Um there were there there arelots of Arabic families, you
know.
There are there are women um whoare sort of, you know, head to
toe while they're swimming withtheir children in the surf.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Um and there was took a photo the other day at
the beach, remember?
SPEAKER_02 (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
There was a guy standing on the beach, and then
the rest of his they were in thenot is it the hijab?
The fool.
Yeah, yeah.
And they were in the waterstanding, and he was taking a
photo and I stopped and I and hegot in and the four of them
That's right, you took thephotograph of them.
Yeah, and they were so lovelyand so um grateful.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:42):
Sometimes, sometimes um one of these groups will play
music, you know.
That's so the Chinese ladieswere dancing to music.
Um sometimes the Arabic folkwill uh you know get their music
up and they will dance to that.
Now I can perceive that some ofthe people in that environment
feel they should be entitled toa complete whitebred, you know,
(34:03):
no cultural intrusion, no noise.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
That are some people that live in our environment.
In the environment.
Well, there was, as we know, aswe know yesterday a terrible um
anti-immigration march on inevery um in in every major
capital city in Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (34:21):
But can I say Do they call it a freedom march or
a Yeah, freedom march, it'santi-immigration.
Yeah, freedom from yeah, I don'tknow, they're just idiots.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
And that they've just rebro they're rebranded
anti-vaxxers, they just got ahate on something.
And um it was very, very badlyattended.
It was sort of really superpathetic.
They're all wrapped in thesenylon Australian flags that were
made in Chinese, and then youknow, and then they go and eat,
you know, Chinese or Indian foodlater.
They're so dumb, it's soinsulting, it's so awful for
(34:52):
because um they blame um massimmigration, which to start off
with is incorrect.
We do not have mass immigration,but they blame the housing
crisis on mass immigration, thewhole thing's just a complete
lie.
Anyway, and then that happened,and then we go down to DY and in
that sort of beautiful lateafternoon, early evening with
(35:16):
that golden light over theparkland.
It was stunning, and the musicand the sound of the different
languages, it was beautiful,wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (35:24):
And and and and because we don't resist it, we
don't feel entitled to it beingexactly the way that we want, we
get to feel part of a uh aninternational community, yeah,
which is which is irreplaceable,it's priceless.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Multicultural, it's beautiful.
And this this notion of lack ofis lack of um assimilation is
just such a such a dog whistle.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (35:47):
Where do we land on this?
You know, like what what couldwhat can we take away from this
in terms of you know what's awhat's a what's what what's a
good way to approach anysituation where you don't
overcontrol it.
Start to feel okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
Okay, so if you if you're looking around your
neighborhood, you know, and yousee there are you know Asian
shops and the Asian peoplefrequent them and and there's
there's people from Brazil andthere's other ethnic cultures.
You know, if you go into someentitled, over-controlled place
and you're going to be unhappy.
So check the data, go to theABS, look at the Australian
(36:22):
Bureau of Statistics andactually see the reality of
immigration as opposed togetting caught up in some
nonsense and just watch for overcontrol.
It's exactly the same as the dogpark.
Yes, watch for over control, letpeople be, and have a nice time.
SPEAKER_02 (36:36):
But but but but that doesn't rob you from the the
ability to also if you seesomething that that genuinely
does make you uncomfortable,like if the music is being
played way, way too loud.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Everything's nuanced, I'm not suggesting you
just you'll just have to be preyto everybody else's wishes.
But where we were yesterday wasa very wide open space and it
was a delightful environment.
So people just cherry-pick theenvironment, use confirmation
bias and say the immigrants areruining everything, it's total
nonsense.
It's like other dogs are ruiningeverything.
Go out into the world and justaccept that you know it's a it's
(37:10):
a varied wonderful, excitingplace to be and just try and
move out of that over controlledspace.
That's my advice.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
Yeah, so less control, more just look at
what's happening and yeah, gowith the flow to see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
So um, thank you for tuning in.
Thank you, David, for yourcontribution.
SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
Are you sure about that?
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
I I I was you were pretty annoying.
Yeah, and um I will definitelyum I'll just won't mention the
amount of cheese that you'reeating late at night.
Okay?
SPEAKER_02 (37:40):
Calcium for the bone.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
It's so important, David, to keep that calcium up.
Yeah.
Because God knows you could havea fall.
Yeah, I could.
And because you've shoredyourself up with with with
camember, I think you're goingto be okay.
Yes.
And also the chocolate.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
This podcast is brought to you by Double Brie.
Avoid osteoporosis and eat morecheese.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
It's good.
So from David and I here on thesunny northern beaches of Sydney
in New South Wales, Australia.
Thanks for tuning in.
Stay safe, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
(38:23):
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
(38:44):
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
(39:06):
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(39:27):
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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