March 31, 2025 • 40 mins
Ben Radford pulls back the curtain on ghost hunting and psychic phenomena with the perfect blend of skepticism and compassion. We explore the fascinating psychology behind paranormal beliefs, revealing how these convictions often become deeply intertwined with personal identity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was attacked by a ghost and I'm like this is
interesting.
I mean I've investigated many,many hauntings and stuff.
I it's rare that someoneactually comes to me and flat
out says they've been attackedby a ghost.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to faux fur
jackets and kale smoothies.
Every moment of every day,we're making decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:36):
I'm your host, annie McCubbin,and, as a woman of a certain age
, I've made my own share ofreally bad decisions.
Not my husband, I don't meanhim, though.
I did go through some shockersto find him and I wish this
podcast had been around to saveme from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:58):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land in which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will beAboriginal land.
This is a continuation of mychat with Ben Radford, skeptic
and paranormal investigator.
(01:18):
If you've just joined me, youcan go back to the prior episode
and listen to part one.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Enjoy.
Oh it's.
I dated a psychic one time.
I can tell you about that laterbut I want to hear that um.
So I'll tell you the otherstory then, if you want to
circle back to it.
So um.
So one thing I've noticed isthat um is that in dealing with
with psychics, specifically overthe years, they get very
defensive when I try and sort ofquestion their claims, and part
(01:53):
of that's normal right.
Nobody likes to be shown up, noone likes to be shown a fool.
Nobody likes to be proven wrong,but in their cases, part of the
reason that they are so, thattheir beliefs are so resilient,
is is the, what you justmentioned, which is it's part of
their identity, right?
So I, I remember me, I did ajust many investigations.
(02:17):
I did one in in ontario, canada, many years back, and there
were a couple psychics who wereon this ghost hunting team and I
was talking to them.
Just there were nice women,probably early 40s, just sort of
ordinary, you know, they dotheir own thing, but what made
them special was that theybelieved that they were psychic
(02:37):
and they claimed to be psychicand they, they told their
friends they were psychic andthey held readings for their
friends and so on.
And it was so interestingtalking to them because I
recognized that that so much ofthat, their identity, their
self-identity, was wrapped up inin this belief that they were
special, they had this gift, um,and they could help, uh, and
(02:59):
they were sincere.
I mean, I believe, I, I'm, I'mabsolutely certain they truly
believed it, um, but it was butthe one of the one of the
factors of that is that when yougently challenge someone or
question them at all, to my mindI'm I'm questioning a claim.
Yeah, this is a personal attack.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I'm not mad at you.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't think you're stupid,I'm not calling you crazy.
You yeah, I don't.
I don't think you're stupid,I'm not calling you crazy, I'm
saying that.
You're saying, I'm saying thatwhen you claim to talk to ghosts
, or when you claim to predictthe future, I'm suggesting to
you that there's not goodevidence for that.
Uh, but to them they're likewhat's?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
you're calling me a liar like yep, straight to it,
straight to it, right, yeah,it's that.
Look up.
We run um.
You might have met my husband,david, at the at the conference
he was running the tech and atthe skeptics conference and um
david and I run trainingprograms in critical thinking,
leadership and um.
(04:01):
One of the things is that wetalk about giving and receiving
feedback and I always say tothem nobody wants feedback, it's
bullshit.
Nobody wants it unless thefeedback is you're incredibly
awesome and everything you do istotally right.
Nobody wants feedback because,of course, you know you don't
(04:21):
want your sense of selfpunctured right.
So we have to prepare ourselvesemotionally to get feedback.
We have to be big enough andintelligent enough and
emotionally stable enough to gookay, give it to me.
I hear that and I'm going to dosomething to actually
ameliorate it.
But somebody that's in thatposition, that's saying that
(04:41):
they're a psychic course,there's a fragility to that,
isn't there, it's like, and itmay be the only thing about them
that is special or theyconsider to be special, and also
they want to be seen to be thehelper.
You know, this happened to youin a past life.
Past life ones are justastonishing, right.
They're just astonishing thatpeople actually you know, sit
(05:02):
there and then suddenly they goback and they were and not got
to tell you about past lives.
Nobody was ever a potato farmer, right?
Everyone was special, right,they were Napoleon.
Cleopatra right, she's beenreincarnated about 5 million
times.
So funny, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So you're absolutely right, and I think I mean just
to circle back for a second topolitics, but I mean, I think
that's one of the that's one ofthe biggest.
One of the biggest failures ofTrump as a president Is that he
surrounds himself with yes man,he does not, he does not want,
he does not, he doesn't wantfeedback.
And here's the problem is thatif you truly believe that you're
(05:43):
always right and Trump saysthat I mean he's, he explicitly
say he's believe that you'realways right and Trump says that
I mean he explicitly says he'salways said he's always right If
that's really your position inlife that anything bad that
happens to you is not your ownfault, it's because the mean
Democrats or the deep state orsomeone's out to get you right
Nothing is ever your fault Thenthere's no incentive to your
(06:05):
fault, then there's no incentiveto change things.
There's no incentive to improve,because yeah, because you, you
don't want feedback becauseyou're doing everything
perfectly, so there's anyfeedback is irrelevant.
Yeah, and and and, it's just.
It's just one of the lessonsthat we get from critical
thinking that is so whollyabsent in the current.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Totally, 100% absent.
And do you think?
I mean, I've often thought ofthis.
Do you think?
I know that David and I oftentalk about the fact that
conservatism so when I sayconservative in my, I'm talking
right wing, because I know youcall your left-wing liberals.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That's right, yeah they're sort of yeah, they're,
it's, it's.
Yeah, there's liberal, liberalsand progressives, democrats,
republicans, blue and red.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
They're sort of different shades there, but yes
well see, we call our right winga conservative party, is the
liberal party well, to be fair,you guys are backwards.
We don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You're ahead of us by like 18 hours.
It's crazy.
I still don't understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, we're incredibly ahead.
So the thing about, in our view, that conservative thinking is
it is simpler.
It's a simpler premise.
You know, you work hard, you dothe right thing, you pull
yourself up by your bootstrapsand get on with your life,
whereas I think left you knowsort of leftist is a more
(07:37):
complex proposition, because Imight be someone who can
actually get on with it, becausemy mental health is okay and I
come from a middle-class familyand I've got support around me,
you know.
So somebody who comes from afamily that was, you know,
raised by two heroin addicts isnot going to have the same start
.
So it's just interesting therelevance of critical thinking
(08:01):
and how disinterested mostpeople are in understanding what
it is.
I mean, I've written two bookson it, um, aimed at women,
mainly because, to your point,um, a lot of the sort of the
scammy stuff is is positioned towomen, isn't it?
It's they're more vulnerable toit, um, but it's amazing how
(08:25):
often someone will say what'syour book about?
And I'll say critical thinking,and they'll go what is that?
And I'm like far out, far out,you don't know what that?
is that's like wow, it's soessential.
So tell me about yourgirlfriend.
That was the psychic, becausethat's nuts.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Wow, there's quite a transition there, good job, I'm
good.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm good, very quick segue yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So yeah, so I briefly dated a psychic and basically
what happened was that I hadthere was a local independent
newspaper here in Albuquerque,where I live the land of
Breaking Bad and Bugs Bunny, forthose who don't know and I had
written a column for a localnewspaper that was basically
debunking psychics.
There was a local radio psychicand I said this is what this
(09:11):
guy is doing.
He's using cold reading.
I sort of outlined all thetricks he was using just to
educate people.
I never met the guy I havenothing against him, but I know
what he's doing because I'veresearched this, so I don't
think much about it.
Until I get an email about aweek later, after it was
(09:33):
published, from someone out ofthe blue Her name is Nicole and
she said well, I read your piecein the Alibi newspaper and I
think you're full of shit.
I was like, okay, I get, I getfive of these a week.
What?
Why?
Why do you specifically thinkI'm full of shit?
And she says well, it's because, um, the problem is that you
(09:54):
just haven't met any psychicsand I'm I'm a psychic.
So I said okay.
So I said, well, um, you know, II could have taken offense to
it.
I could have said bugger off.
But I said all right.
So all right, you've engaged,you've written me a piece of
hate mail, I'm going to turnanother cheek.
And I said, well, tell you what, I'd like to meet with you.
(10:16):
So we met at a pizza shop in myhometown, not too far from
where I am now, and I showed upand it was interesting.
So she was red haired, midthirties kind of stocky, and she
had her hair was very I'm bald,for those who can't see me so
(10:38):
she had very VoluminousVoluminous, I think, but I think
she was trying to intimidate mewith her hair did she?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
did she psychically know that you were bald?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I, I, I was like you're right, she's trying to
pull that over on me.
So so we, we, so we had a verycordial lunch and I met her and
we were chatting and and I was,I was sincerely interested.
I said, well, you know you, Iunderstand you, you're psychic,
or you know, you think you'repsychic, I tried to sort of.
I said, well, you know.
And I said you know well, howdoes that work.
(11:14):
And and and I said, well, forexample, when you, when you hear
.
So she told me that you knowshe hears.
She hears visions andinformation.
I said, well, when you hear it,do you hear it in your head or
is it in your ears?
So, for example, if I were totake a microphone and put it in
(11:35):
your ear and again, I'm totallyserious, I'm not making fun of
her, I'm genuinely curious andshe thought about it for a
second, she said no, it's kindof in the back of my head.
And anyways, we chatted forabout a half hour or something
and it was interesting because Ithink she was expecting me to
be this obnoxious, dismissiveasshole and I was a guy who was
(11:57):
sincerely interested.
Yeah, I was like this is kindof interesting.
I don't know whether you'repsychic or not, I don't think so
, but I don't know.
And so she saw me actuallybeing diplomatic and respectful.
So I said, well, I said youknow, so it was a, it was a
lunch date, it was a lunch.
And then she's like well, youknow.
(12:21):
And as I left, just like, well,you know, we should get
together, get some time maybe,maybe to to test this long story
short.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Uh, we ended up dating for about three months oh
man, that's fantastic, that'sand and so did you ever put in
like what happened nothing?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
well, um, I'm not sure how.
If you really want the end ofthe story, I'll tell you.
You can cut it out later if youwant, but basically so we'd
been dating for a couple months,as I said, and I had already
arranged to go on a cruise withan ex-girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
You've got a lot of ex-girlfriends.
I'd just like to say thatthat's the third one you've
mentioned.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
This is not part of the story.
I'm going with this Go on Isthat and again I've been up
front with this We'd only dateda little bit and we'd already
anyway.
So I said, just so you know,this cruise isn't planned for
six months.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
We're going on this cruise and, yes, my
ex-girlfriend is going with meand her face sort of got a
little bit stony and she's like,well, you know whatever.
So I went on the cruise andthen I got back and so we had
(13:38):
dinner I think it was a coupledays after I got back and so she
was, you know, polite andeverything and in the middle of
dinner she says there's a pause.
She took a sip of wine and shesaid, um, so what happened on
the cruise?
And you know, I figured I couldguess where she was going with
(14:01):
this didn't she know?
yeah, she's psychic anywayexactly, thank you, that was my.
That.
That's exactly I'm like.
Why do I have to tell you?
I could guess where she wasgoing with this.
Well, didn't she know, becauseshe's a psychic?
Anyway, exactly Thank you, thatwas my.
That's exactly I'm like.
Why do I have to tell you,don't you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
happened on the cruise.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Don't you know, she didn't, and she was not happy
with what happened on the cruise.
It did not.
It didn't end badly, but itjust sort of like Fizzled yes,
badly, but it just sort of likefizzled, yes, yes, and and and
to your point, I had sort ofthought, well, look, if you're
really psychic, I you shouldknow, and, furthermore, you
should have known before I evenwent on the cruise.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
but whatever, but isn't that the thing?
And it's interesting becauseI'm I'm talking to susan gerbic,
um, actually I love susan, Ilove Susan, and so of course
she's going to be talking a lotabout the grief, vampires and
psychics.
Yeah, I love that, but it alwaysamazes me how, what a psychic,
(14:57):
or someone who proclaims to bepsychic, what they can and what
they actually can't predict andany of the prosaic day-to-day
stuff like well, couldn't yousee, didn't you know what was
going on in the cruise justapparently doesn't hit the radar
.
It's classic, classic.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, it's remarkable .
And of course you know, ourgood friend Richard Saunders did
the Great Psychic PredictionProject and he analysed enormous
.
I forgot just thousands andthousands, thousands and
thousands, yeah.
And did an amazing job.
And if people aren't familiarwith Richard's stuff, check it
out.
And I think it's so importantbecause it's so easy for the
(15:38):
average person to sort ofdismiss psychics as being too
silly to investigate or this orthat, but the fact of the matter
is that many people absolutelybelieve in psychics, 100%.
They do and they will makehere's the key here they will
make important life decisionsbased on that.
(15:59):
Yep, that's right and that issomething that should not be
ignored.
This is not just palm readingfor $10 on the boardwalk.
Some of it is, but a lot of itis people giving information
that they frankly don't.
There's no evidence.
It's real and people in somecases they're flat-out scams and
(16:21):
there's lots of long cons andpeople who you know that they
pull it.
You know a Romney gypsy trickwhere they, you know they say oh
you're, are you having a badluck streak?
Oh, it's because there's acurse on you.
I know who it is, butthankfully I have the ability to
to reverse the curse.
I'm gonna need $10,000 you'llget it back, of course, but I
(16:44):
just need it to to perform aritual and you know what happens
after that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, just if I can give myself a quick plug.
In my second book I wrote acharacter who things kept going
wrong in the flats that the leadcharacter lives in, and so a
psychic came in and said I canremove the curse.
The whole thing was about acurse.
And who believes that and whodoesn't believe that?
It's very, very interesting,isn't it that where the belief
(17:12):
comes from, how sustained thebelief is, how, how easy or
difficult it is to actually, asto your point, to actually get
into someone's head and go.
You really need to look at theevidence for this.
You need to look at it because,of course, we use confirmation
bias, don't we?
I'll get into that with susanabout why it is that psychics,
um, are so successful.
(17:35):
Because, of course, people.
It's it's motivated reasoning.
I'll remember the one thing,right, that was accurate, and
the rest of the dross will justgo out of my consciousness.
So before we wrap up, can youjust tell me your favourite
ghost hunting story?
Ooh, on the spot, my favouriteghost hunting story, or anyone
(17:57):
that sits, Because I know youtold a fantastic one at the
Skeptics Conference where youwent into a house.
I remember it was really cool.
Do you remember that it's gone?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
from your consciousness.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
It's floated off hasn't it which one was that, it
was a whole lot of you andthere was a house and everyone
was doing some sort of ghostinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Oh, yes, yes, the behind the scenes on the Ghost
Sending TV show.
So I will give you.
There's another one.
I wrote about this in one of mybooks and it's kind of a
complicated story, but also orI'll quickly summarize it,
basically I was living inBuffalo, new York, at the time,
which is where my magazine isbased, and I have since moved
(18:38):
back to New Mexico.
But I was at my desk one day andI got a call from a woman near
who lived nearby a place calledLackawanna, which is about 30
minutes outside of Buffalo, andshe asked for my help and I said
, well, how can I help you?
And she says, well, there's anevil spirit in my house.
Fair enough, and well and likeOkay.
(19:00):
And so I said, okay, well, Iwas actually, you know, I was
editing a magazine, I was notinvestigator mood, I got a cup
of coffee and this is the lastthing I was expecting at, you
know, 10 o'clock on a Tuesday.
But she, I said, you know, I'malways game to investigate, I'm
keen to do it, you know, this iswhat I love to do.
So I said, okay, fine.
(19:20):
So I said, well, tell me aboutit.
So I met with her and herhusband and she said well, I
said why do you think your houseis haunted?
And I put it again, not in achallenging way, I wasn't like
that's stupid.
I said you called me.
Why do you give me yourexplanation?
(19:41):
What do you think is going on?
And she says, well, there hadbeen a couple things going on
around the house, things theycouldn't explain, and they tried
to do their own investigation.
They had taken a couplephotographs.
Basically, they had used ghosthunting TV shows as a template,
which is bad idea.
Please don't do that.
They don't know what they'redoing.
(20:03):
But they were both fans of theghost hunters TV shows and they
said well, I guess this is howwe investigate ghosts, because
that's what they saw on tv.
And they did this half-assed,half-baked investigation which
did nothing but just furthertheir, their belief.
Uh.
And then they did somethingwhich they also shouldn't do,
which is, they called, in, apsychic always good you can
guess what.
(20:23):
You can guess what the psychictold.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, there was an evil spirit in the house and it
had been trapped there for 30years and they died in the house
and it was a murder.
Is that right?
Exactly, Annie, you're apsychic, I'm psychic, you know
this story.
Yes, you're a psychic.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yep.
So, and of course this is justpissing me off because once
again the psychic who thesepeople turned to for help made
the situation worse and gavethem misinformation and
basically convinced them that itwas in fact an evil spirit in
their house.
Anyway, I'll sort of skip overthe investigation.
(20:58):
Basically, I went through eachof their pieces of evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
And what was it?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Things moving, or what was it well, so, so there
were a couple things, so I'llgive you one quick.
There are two examples.
So, uh, one was, um, uh, theyhad uh taken a, an audio
recorder and they'd placed itupstairs this was a split level
uh home.
So there was a father, uh, amother, and then a young
(21:26):
daughter who I think was aboutthree or so, and they were.
So this happened betweenThanksgiving and Christmas, and
they were so frightened, partlyby their experiences and partly
by the psychic who told, whowrongly told them their house
was haunted.
They were afraid to sleep intheir own home at night.
They were sleeping in their car.
They were sleeping with friendsbecause they were so scared in
their own home at night theywere sleeping in their car.
They were sleeping with friendsbecause they were so scared.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
The noises because of noises.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Right.
So what they did was they tooka tape recorder, and it was
actually a cassette tape.
This was some years ago, whenthese things were still around,
and this is how old I am yeahright.
And they put it on the top ofthe stairs and they recorded it
and then they basically I thinkthey left the house and then
(22:11):
they came back and then whenthey played it and they turned
it all the way up they heardvoices murmuring.
So they present this tape to meand I can probably figure out
what it is anyway.
So just to give one example.
So I listened to the tape andI'm guess I can probably figure
out what it is anyway.
So I'll just to give oneexample.
So I listened to the tape and Isaid, well, are you sure that
this wasn't just ambient sounds?
You live, there's houses allaround.
(22:33):
There's a there's a street right, and they said no, no, that
that's not, that can't be right,and said okay, fine.
So I took that exact same taperecorder and a different tape.
I placed it in the exact sameplace because I asked them where
was this.
I took a photograph of it andthen I asked the wife to stay
downstairs with the kid and the,the.
The father and I casuallywalked out into the, into the
(22:56):
front yard, by his car was, andwe spoke at normal levels.
So how's things going?
You know, are you still havingyou know experiences this and
that, this, and you still havingyou know experiences this and
that, this and that, just sortof you know casual conversation?
You know any changes, this andthat?
And then we went back.
You can guess where this isgoing.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
We went back up to the.
I rewound it and, sure enough,after they had assured me that
there's no way that thatvideotape could, that audio tape
could have recorded ambientsounds, Sure enough they
recorded ambient sounds.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
And it sounded like voices, right.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It sounded like voices and we knew for a fact
that was us because and again, Iwasn't yelling, it was just
casual conversation I said, look, this is almost certainly a
doger or anyway.
So that's an example anyway.
So the reason this is myfavorite story, yeah, is that,
uh, I had solved most of themost of the different uh
(23:57):
experiences.
So anyway, if anyone'sinterested in in this case, it's
written up in my book,scientific paranormal
investigation, it's like chapterseven and we will put that in
the link.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We'll put that in the show notes, your book and
people can read the whole thingI it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
It's a cool book anyway.
So who aren't going with this?
And part of the reason is I.
I like the story is that numberone.
It was a case where I wasactually able to help the people
I was.
I was the skeptic, but I wasgoing in there and I put in the
time.
I went there nights andweekends.
I was not getting paid for this, I was there to help them out
(24:32):
and anyway.
So I talked to them.
I think I spent about a week anda half there and the guy said
okay, well, you've explainedmost of the things.
I agree that most of the thingsthat we thought were ghosts
aren't actually ghosts.
He said, but there's one thingthat you're not going to be able
to explain and of course I'mlike do tell.
And uh, and I said what exactlyis it?
(24:54):
He said well, I was attacked bya ghost.
And I'm like this isinteresting.
I mean, I've investigated many,many hauntings and stuff.
I it's rare that someoneactually comes to me and flat
out says they've been attackedby a ghost, but I don't know.
So I said, well, what exactly?
What do you mean?
Let's parse this out.
(25:15):
When you say attacked by aghost, what exactly do you mean?
He says well, uh, he said that,so he has sleep apnea.
Uh, he was a big heavy guy, hewas a, he was a machine, he
worked at a auto plant.
In fact, um and uh and he, uh,he, uh.
His wife and daughter had sleptseparately, so he was by
(25:36):
himself on a cot not a full-sizebed, but a cot up up in, up in
upstairs what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
a cot, because a cot in australia is a thing you put
a baby in with sides on it yeah,it's more of a like a pull out
bed, got it like a.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, so it's.
It's not like a full-sizesturdy bed, but sort of a good a
metal.
Yeah, so, um, and he said well,what?
I said, what exactly happened?
He said, well, there's no.
You know, I was by myself, butas I was going to sleep, the
ghost kicked my bed and he saidagain my wife and daughter were
(26:13):
downstairs because I have sleepapnea, because I snore loudly
and she couldn't, and, plus,they were, of course, frightened
.
And he said I was just layingin bed and as I was drifting to
sleep, the whole bed shook.
And he said this happened acouple different times and it
scared the hell out of him.
He was like there's noexplanation.
There's no one else around, I'malone in the room, what's going
(26:34):
on?
It must be a ghost and that wasone of the sort of the key, one
of the key mysteries of thiscase and I didn't know what to
make of it because you know italready happened.
I mean, I'm not going to stakeit, I'm not going to spend the
night in his room waiting for itSitting in the corner.
I guess I could, butunfortunately I didn't get onto
(26:56):
that.
But as it happened, that verynight or actually the second
night of my investigation,because again this happened
between thanksgiving, and and uhand christmas I was over at a
friend's house and we were justmaking casual conversation, um,
and it was my girlfriend'sfriends, and they said well, you
(27:16):
know, so you know, we're justcatching up.
You know how things are, thefactory, how things that and and
uh, her, her friend's husband,was a police officer and he's
talking about some cases he'sworking on.
And they asked me what I'mdoing.
And I said well, since youasked, I'm investigating a
haunted house down the road.
I said but there's one thing Ican't.
So I said maybe you guys canhelp me figure it out, because
(27:37):
I'm kind of stumped on it.
And my girlfriend's friend, shesays well, it sounds like
restless leg syndrome, yep.
And I said well, what do youmean?
And so she says well, you know,john, when he's going to sleep
in the bed, his legs shake, hislegs twitches, yeah, and that
(28:01):
hadn't crossed my mind.
And what happened in the yearsafterwards?
Certainly here in America?
Suddenly we're getting a bunchof advertisements on TV for RLS
Yep yeah.
My husband's had it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but at thetime this was, I mean, I'm not
saying this was an unknowncondition, but it wasn't really,
wasn't really.
Yeah, I didn't see any ads forit, it was sort of unknown and
(28:23):
I'm like, oh, my God, that'swhat that is.
And so I did some research onRLS and it happens, especially
happens with people who havesleep apnea.
Yep, it happens as you're goingto sleep.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, on the brink of sleep, right on the brink of
sleep.
100% yeah, and I realized.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
that was the explanation, that was what he
thought.
That was what he thought.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That was why he thought he's alone in his room
as he's going to sleep, he feelsa kick on the bed.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
He doesn't realize he's doing it.
No, that's right, and henaturally assumes that it's some
evil spirit in the house.
And did you tell him that?
I did, and it was interesting,because a lot of times when I
solve mysteries, they don't wantto hear it.
But in this case, keep in mind,this was scaring them.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It was genuinely frightening.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And so what I did was and I'm kind of proud of myself
for the way I handled it I wentthrough each piece of evidence
they had given me.
I said here's this photograph.
I duplicated it.
This is not a evil, demonicface in a window.
This is, this is a reflection.
Here you go yeah here.
You know, here's we.
(29:33):
We went through the audio tapewhich you were sure must be
ghosts, but in fact it was meand tony outside talking about
normal things.
So I went through piece bypiece by piece and again, I
didn't come in gangbusters, I'mMr Know-it-all skeptic.
You guys are full of shit.
You're crazy.
I went in there saying this isan interesting mystery, I don't
(29:54):
know.
Help me solve this.
So I engaged them into it and Iexplained it piece by piece and
I recognized that because oftheir background.
So they were.
They were roman catholic andthey had brought in a.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
You can maybe see where we're going with this they
had brought in a priest, yeah,to do an exorcism right and so
spinning head with green vomitright fortunately, there was no
green vomit, no masturbationthat I saw, uh, which is
probably just as well, um andand.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But here's the thing is, is I recognized that if I
told them there was never aghost here, they might not
believe me.
So so so, because even though Ihad pretty much conclusively
shown them at one point, theywere pretty sure there was one.
So here's what I said.
I said I don't think there wasa ghost here.
If there was, it is now gone,and by doing so I left open the,
(30:54):
the, the door right.
So I said, I said you know, Idon't think there's anything
supernatural here, I don't thinkthere ever was.
But if you believe that therewas, I'm, I will grant you that
belief.
But let's agree that's nolonger here, perfect, and that
they, they got relieved andthey're like yes, it's over and
(31:15):
um it didn't puncture theiridentity right no, and, and I I
crafted it carefully so that itwouldn't smart smart and I
helped them out, and that's acase I'm proud of.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
Well, of course, that's whatthey.
It's definitely what they sayabout dealing with conspiracy
theories and conspiracytheorists is to find the
commonality.
There's no point going in withall guns blazing going.
You're a knob if you believethis, and I'm really intelligent
(31:50):
and I'm smart because allyou're doing is just widening
the divide, right yeah, it'scounterproductive.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Um, you know, mick west has an excellent book
called escaping the rabbit hole.
Uh, he wrote a couple yearsback and he talks about, uh, the
the psychology of helpingpeople out of conspiracy
thinking and, exactly as yousaid, part of the idea is to
build bridges right instead ofgoing into it, guns blazing.
And you're all stupid assholesand I'm the smart ass skeptic.
(32:17):
Uh, you go in there saying look,I you I don't know everything,
help me figure this out and whenyou engage them, when you show
them respect even if they knowthat you're a skeptic, even if
they know that you're probablygoing to find some explanation
for it if you show them respect,that builds bridges and that
(32:38):
can sort of help bring peopletogether.
I mean this isn't like akumbaya moment, but it's a case
of where these people neededhelp.
They called me.
I didn't call them.
They called me, uh, and theysaw that I was taking time out
of my again night and weekendsto go to their house.
I wasn't getting paid.
I wasn't.
I later turned it.
I later wrote a chapter aboutit, with their permission, but I
(33:02):
mean, this was not the to me.
There was me trying to helpsomebody else out as I would
anybody.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah, it's showing care, it's showing compassion
and it's coming from anon-judgmental place, and I
think that's really hardsometimes, isn't it?
Because you just want to slappeople around the head and go.
What are you thinking?
When I was it reminded me thatwhen I was in my early 20s I did
every Australian girl.
What we do is we go on Europeanodysseys because it's so far
(33:32):
here.
We never just go for like threeweeks or two weeks, we just go
and live overseas.
And I'd gone.
I was about 22, and I'd gone toEurope and I'd washed up on
this little Greek island calledPatmos and I'd run out of money
and my parents were really,really sick of sending me money
and rescuing me right, and I wastoo embarrassed to ask again.
(33:56):
So I set myself up down in the,in one of those squares on this
island and said that I was anAustralian psychic and
fortunately for me, I did notsee that coming.
My first customer was this girl.
(34:19):
I didn't know a thing, I knew Iwasn't.
I didn't know anything, but I'mgood with people and I always
knew I was good with people.
And anyway, she showed me herpalm and I said are you a twin?
She was, she was a twin.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Wow, well done.
Thank you, you played the.
You know, you just don't know.
Oh my God, are you a twin?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Oh, my God, Are you a twin anyway.
She's like oh my God, I am, I am, I'm a twin.
Oh my God, you're like somesort of miracle.
It was quite a bad Greek accent, I apologize for that.
Anyway, so I don't know.
I think I don't know anything,but I was reading a palm and
there's two lines across.
I said that anyway.
(35:02):
Because of that and because itwas such a small community, I
had days and days of customerscoming to me and I know, and I
made, I only said nice things.
I just said nice things to them, everything was going to be
lovely and they'd have a goodlife.
And then I made some money, notenough actually to fly home,
(35:27):
but just enough to drink somemore Retsina, which can.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I say, oh, that's all you did, right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Can I say at this point Retsina, which is Greek
wine.
It tastes like Dettol and tothis day I've never been able to
bear it.
Anyway, I just made enough.
I minned about on this islandfor quite a few weeks and then
eventually fessed up to my dad.
I said can you please just flyme home?
He said, yes, all right, anne,and home I went.
(35:55):
But I think that was just thatluck of the draw, right.
And it's the same with anybodythat you nail one and
confirmation bias hits in andit's motivated reasoning.
We that you know you nail oneand confirmation bias hits in
and it's motivated reasoning.
We want to believe, don't we,that there's an answer out there
.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I'll tell you a quick story.
I had a similar case.
I'm I was in high school, umnear where I am now, and I was
in a in a shop class and therewere there were groups of tables
.
There were four people at atable and there was this one guy
I don't remember his name, wecalled him drac, like dracula,
because he had sort of uh,incisors.
And one day, just out of theblue, with no, no, just out of
(36:36):
the blue, I turned to him and Ilooked him dead in the eye and
we didn't know each other verywell.
We were, you know, classmates.
We didn't, we didn't hang out,but we, you know, we knew each
other.
I said I just, I don't knowwhere.
I said I better know your mom'smiddle name.
And he said no, you don't.
I said yeah, I do.
He said what is it?
I said it's ann, and the blooddrained from his face.
(36:59):
He, you would think I just, youknow, got a taint with a cattle
prod.
He was just like he was just,he was apoplectic and he visibly
stiffened.
He's like how did you know that?
Do you know my mom?
I almost did a joke there, butno, and he's like how did you
(37:24):
know that?
And he was freaking out, um,and I just smiled and he never
sat next to me for the rest ofthe semester, uh, but, as you
can imagine, I just I looked itup and anne is the most common
female middle name yeah uh, andI just happened to get it and to
this day right.
So 40 years later, 30 yearslater, he's probably still
(37:46):
telling you about the kid in inhigh school shop class who, dead
out of nowhere, told him hismom's name and there's no way I
could have known it dead out ofnowhere and he, and if he, ever
finds out what you do now, right, you're right, did you trying
to debunk yourself?
Right, Sorry Drac, Sorry Drac.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Oh, that's so funny.
It's so funny.
Well, ben, we have talked for along time and it has been
absolutely wonderful.
I thank you so much for yourtime, because you probably got
to go and check out a ghostsomewhere, do you?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
A little bit.
I've always got projects goingon.
I'm making a documentary, I'mwriting an article, uh, mirrored
things, but I just I was sodelighted to get your message.
I remembered you, of course,from from the, the australian
skeptics, and uh, I've, I've.
You know, I made some suchgreat friends, you know know,
tim and Lara and Richard and thegang there.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
They're awesome, aren't they?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And it was just so much fun and I thank you so much
for inviting me.
This has been a delight.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Oh, my absolute pleasure, and I will put
Squaring the Strange in the shownotes so people can listen to
your podcast and maybe at someother point in the future you
might come back on and tell memore stories.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I would be delighted to.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
And if you ever get a decent government, I will come
over to America and say hello.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Any time now, the sooner the better, the sooner
the better, believe me Okay okay, so lovely to talk.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Thank you so much, ben.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
See you later, thank you.
And thank you so much, smartwomen, for tuning in.
See you later, thank you.
And thank you so much, smartwomen, for tuning in.
See you next week.
Thanks for tuning into whysmart women with me.
Annie McCubbin, I hope today'sepisode has ignited your
curiosity and left you feelinginspired by my anti motivational
style.
Join me next time as wecontinue to unravel the
(39:44):
fascinating layers of our brainsand develop ways to sort out
the fact from the fiction andthe over 6,000 thoughts we have
in the course of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
(40:06):
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work,
car park, in a bar or in yourown home, please, please,
respect that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate and review the podcast and
(40:28):
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together, we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time.
Stay sharp, stay savvy and keepyour critical thinking hat
shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from why Smart Women See you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(40:51):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, annie McCubbin.
I was attacked by a ghost and I'm like this is
interesting.
I mean I've investigated many,many hauntings and stuff.
I it's rare that someoneactually comes to me and flat
out says they've been attackedby a ghost.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to faux fur
jackets and kale smoothies.
Every moment of every day,we're making decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:36):
I'm your host, annie McCubbin,and, as a woman of a certain age
, I've made my own share ofreally bad decisions.
Not my husband, I don't meanhim, though.
I did go through some shockersto find him and I wish this
podcast had been around to saveme from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:58):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land in which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will beAboriginal land.
This is a continuation of mychat with Ben Radford, skeptic
and paranormal investigator.
(01:18):
If you've just joined me, youcan go back to the prior episode
and listen to part one.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Enjoy.
Oh it's.
I dated a psychic one time.
I can tell you about that laterbut I want to hear that um.
So I'll tell you the otherstory then, if you want to
circle back to it.
So um.
So one thing I've noticed isthat um is that in dealing with
with psychics, specifically overthe years, they get very
defensive when I try and sort ofquestion their claims, and part
(01:53):
of that's normal right.
Nobody likes to be shown up, noone likes to be shown a fool.
Nobody likes to be proven wrong,but in their cases, part of the
reason that they are so, thattheir beliefs are so resilient,
is is the, what you justmentioned, which is it's part of
their identity, right?
So I, I remember me, I did ajust many investigations.
(02:17):
I did one in in ontario, canada, many years back, and there
were a couple psychics who wereon this ghost hunting team and I
was talking to them.
Just there were nice women,probably early 40s, just sort of
ordinary, you know, they dotheir own thing, but what made
them special was that theybelieved that they were psychic
(02:37):
and they claimed to be psychicand they, they told their
friends they were psychic andthey held readings for their
friends and so on.
And it was so interestingtalking to them because I
recognized that that so much ofthat, their identity, their
self-identity, was wrapped up inin this belief that they were
special, they had this gift, um,and they could help, uh, and
(02:59):
they were sincere.
I mean, I believe, I, I'm, I'mabsolutely certain they truly
believed it, um, but it was butthe one of the one of the
factors of that is that when yougently challenge someone or
question them at all, to my mindI'm I'm questioning a claim.
Yeah, this is a personal attack.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, I'm not mad at you.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I don't.
I don't think you're stupid,I'm not calling you crazy.
You yeah, I don't.
I don't think you're stupid,I'm not calling you crazy, I'm
saying that.
You're saying, I'm saying thatwhen you claim to talk to ghosts
, or when you claim to predictthe future, I'm suggesting to
you that there's not goodevidence for that.
Uh, but to them they're likewhat's?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
you're calling me a liar like yep, straight to it,
straight to it, right, yeah,it's that.
Look up.
We run um.
You might have met my husband,david, at the at the conference
he was running the tech and atthe skeptics conference and um
david and I run trainingprograms in critical thinking,
leadership and um.
(04:01):
One of the things is that wetalk about giving and receiving
feedback and I always say tothem nobody wants feedback, it's
bullshit.
Nobody wants it unless thefeedback is you're incredibly
awesome and everything you do istotally right.
Nobody wants feedback because,of course, you know you don't
(04:21):
want your sense of selfpunctured right.
So we have to prepare ourselvesemotionally to get feedback.
We have to be big enough andintelligent enough and
emotionally stable enough to gookay, give it to me.
I hear that and I'm going to dosomething to actually
ameliorate it.
But somebody that's in thatposition, that's saying that
(04:41):
they're a psychic course,there's a fragility to that,
isn't there, it's like, and itmay be the only thing about them
that is special or theyconsider to be special, and also
they want to be seen to be thehelper.
You know, this happened to youin a past life.
Past life ones are justastonishing, right.
They're just astonishing thatpeople actually you know, sit
(05:02):
there and then suddenly they goback and they were and not got
to tell you about past lives.
Nobody was ever a potato farmer, right?
Everyone was special, right,they were Napoleon.
Cleopatra right, she's beenreincarnated about 5 million
times.
So funny, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So you're absolutely right, and I think I mean just
to circle back for a second topolitics, but I mean, I think
that's one of the that's one ofthe biggest.
One of the biggest failures ofTrump as a president Is that he
surrounds himself with yes man,he does not, he does not want,
he does not, he doesn't wantfeedback.
And here's the problem is thatif you truly believe that you're
(05:43):
always right and Trump saysthat I mean he's, he explicitly
say he's believe that you'realways right and Trump says that
I mean he explicitly says he'salways said he's always right If
that's really your position inlife that anything bad that
happens to you is not your ownfault, it's because the mean
Democrats or the deep state orsomeone's out to get you right
Nothing is ever your fault Thenthere's no incentive to your
(06:05):
fault, then there's no incentiveto change things.
There's no incentive to improve,because yeah, because you, you
don't want feedback becauseyou're doing everything
perfectly, so there's anyfeedback is irrelevant.
Yeah, and and and, it's just.
It's just one of the lessonsthat we get from critical
thinking that is so whollyabsent in the current.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Totally, 100% absent.
And do you think?
I mean, I've often thought ofthis.
Do you think?
I know that David and I oftentalk about the fact that
conservatism so when I sayconservative in my, I'm talking
right wing, because I know youcall your left-wing liberals.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
That's right, yeah they're sort of yeah, they're,
it's, it's.
Yeah, there's liberal, liberalsand progressives, democrats,
republicans, blue and red.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
They're sort of different shades there, but yes
well see, we call our right winga conservative party, is the
liberal party well, to be fair,you guys are backwards.
We don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You're ahead of us by like 18 hours.
It's crazy.
I still don't understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, we're incredibly ahead.
So the thing about, in our view, that conservative thinking is
it is simpler.
It's a simpler premise.
You know, you work hard, you dothe right thing, you pull
yourself up by your bootstrapsand get on with your life,
whereas I think left you knowsort of leftist is a more
(07:37):
complex proposition, because Imight be someone who can
actually get on with it, becausemy mental health is okay and I
come from a middle-class familyand I've got support around me,
you know.
So somebody who comes from afamily that was, you know,
raised by two heroin addicts isnot going to have the same start
.
So it's just interesting therelevance of critical thinking
(08:01):
and how disinterested mostpeople are in understanding what
it is.
I mean, I've written two bookson it, um, aimed at women,
mainly because, to your point,um, a lot of the sort of the
scammy stuff is is positioned towomen, isn't it?
It's they're more vulnerable toit, um, but it's amazing how
(08:25):
often someone will say what'syour book about?
And I'll say critical thinking,and they'll go what is that?
And I'm like far out, far out,you don't know what that?
is that's like wow, it's soessential.
So tell me about yourgirlfriend.
That was the psychic, becausethat's nuts.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Wow, there's quite a transition there, good job, I'm
good.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm good, very quick segue yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So yeah, so I briefly dated a psychic and basically
what happened was that I hadthere was a local independent
newspaper here in Albuquerque,where I live the land of
Breaking Bad and Bugs Bunny, forthose who don't know and I had
written a column for a localnewspaper that was basically
debunking psychics.
There was a local radio psychicand I said this is what this
(09:11):
guy is doing.
He's using cold reading.
I sort of outlined all thetricks he was using just to
educate people.
I never met the guy I havenothing against him, but I know
what he's doing because I'veresearched this, so I don't
think much about it.
Until I get an email about aweek later, after it was
(09:33):
published, from someone out ofthe blue Her name is Nicole and
she said well, I read your piecein the Alibi newspaper and I
think you're full of shit.
I was like, okay, I get, I getfive of these a week.
What?
Why?
Why do you specifically thinkI'm full of shit?
And she says well, it's because, um, the problem is that you
(09:54):
just haven't met any psychicsand I'm I'm a psychic.
So I said okay.
So I said, well, um, you know, II could have taken offense to
it.
I could have said bugger off.
But I said all right.
So all right, you've engaged,you've written me a piece of
hate mail, I'm going to turnanother cheek.
And I said, well, tell you what, I'd like to meet with you.
(10:16):
So we met at a pizza shop in myhometown, not too far from
where I am now, and I showed upand it was interesting.
So she was red haired, midthirties kind of stocky, and she
had her hair was very I'm bald,for those who can't see me so
(10:38):
she had very VoluminousVoluminous, I think, but I think
she was trying to intimidate mewith her hair did she?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
did she psychically know that you were bald?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I, I, I was like you're right, she's trying to
pull that over on me.
So so we, we, so we had a verycordial lunch and I met her and
we were chatting and and I was,I was sincerely interested.
I said, well, you know you, Iunderstand you, you're psychic,
or you know, you think you'repsychic, I tried to sort of.
I said, well, you know.
And I said you know well, howdoes that work.
(11:14):
And and and I said, well, forexample, when you, when you hear
.
So she told me that you knowshe hears.
She hears visions andinformation.
I said, well, when you hear it,do you hear it in your head or
is it in your ears?
So, for example, if I were totake a microphone and put it in
(11:35):
your ear and again, I'm totallyserious, I'm not making fun of
her, I'm genuinely curious andshe thought about it for a
second, she said no, it's kindof in the back of my head.
And anyways, we chatted forabout a half hour or something
and it was interesting because Ithink she was expecting me to
be this obnoxious, dismissiveasshole and I was a guy who was
(11:57):
sincerely interested.
Yeah, I was like this is kindof interesting.
I don't know whether you'repsychic or not, I don't think so
, but I don't know.
And so she saw me actuallybeing diplomatic and respectful.
So I said, well, I said youknow, so it was a, it was a
lunch date, it was a lunch.
And then she's like well, youknow.
(12:21):
And as I left, just like, well,you know, we should get
together, get some time maybe,maybe to to test this long story
short.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Uh, we ended up dating for about three months oh
man, that's fantastic, that'sand and so did you ever put in
like what happened nothing?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
well, um, I'm not sure how.
If you really want the end ofthe story, I'll tell you.
You can cut it out later if youwant, but basically so we'd
been dating for a couple months,as I said, and I had already
arranged to go on a cruise withan ex-girlfriend.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
You've got a lot of ex-girlfriends.
I'd just like to say thatthat's the third one you've
mentioned.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
This is not part of the story.
I'm going with this Go on Isthat and again I've been up
front with this We'd only dateda little bit and we'd already
anyway.
So I said, just so you know,this cruise isn't planned for
six months.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
We're going on this cruise and, yes, my
ex-girlfriend is going with meand her face sort of got a
little bit stony and she's like,well, you know whatever.
So I went on the cruise andthen I got back and so we had
(13:38):
dinner I think it was a coupledays after I got back and so she
was, you know, polite andeverything and in the middle of
dinner she says there's a pause.
She took a sip of wine and shesaid, um, so what happened on
the cruise?
And you know, I figured I couldguess where she was going with
(14:01):
this didn't she know?
yeah, she's psychic anywayexactly, thank you, that was my.
That.
That's exactly I'm like.
Why do I have to tell you?
I could guess where she wasgoing with this.
Well, didn't she know, becauseshe's a psychic?
Anyway, exactly Thank you, thatwas my.
That's exactly I'm like.
Why do I have to tell you,don't you know what?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
happened on the cruise.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Don't you know, she didn't, and she was not happy
with what happened on the cruise.
It did not.
It didn't end badly, but itjust sort of like Fizzled yes,
badly, but it just sort of likefizzled, yes, yes, and and and
to your point, I had sort ofthought, well, look, if you're
really psychic, I you shouldknow, and, furthermore, you
should have known before I evenwent on the cruise.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
but whatever, but isn't that the thing?
And it's interesting becauseI'm I'm talking to susan gerbic,
um, actually I love susan, Ilove Susan, and so of course
she's going to be talking a lotabout the grief, vampires and
psychics.
Yeah, I love that, but it alwaysamazes me how, what a psychic,
(14:57):
or someone who proclaims to bepsychic, what they can and what
they actually can't predict andany of the prosaic day-to-day
stuff like well, couldn't yousee, didn't you know what was
going on in the cruise justapparently doesn't hit the radar
.
It's classic, classic.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, it's remarkable .
And of course you know, ourgood friend Richard Saunders did
the Great Psychic PredictionProject and he analysed enormous
.
I forgot just thousands andthousands, thousands and
thousands, yeah.
And did an amazing job.
And if people aren't familiarwith Richard's stuff, check it
out.
And I think it's so importantbecause it's so easy for the
(15:38):
average person to sort ofdismiss psychics as being too
silly to investigate or this orthat, but the fact of the matter
is that many people absolutelybelieve in psychics, 100%.
They do and they will makehere's the key here they will
make important life decisionsbased on that.
(15:59):
Yep, that's right and that issomething that should not be
ignored.
This is not just palm readingfor $10 on the boardwalk.
Some of it is, but a lot of itis people giving information
that they frankly don't.
There's no evidence.
It's real and people in somecases they're flat-out scams and
(16:21):
there's lots of long cons andpeople who you know that they
pull it.
You know a Romney gypsy trickwhere they, you know they say oh
you're, are you having a badluck streak?
Oh, it's because there's acurse on you.
I know who it is, butthankfully I have the ability to
to reverse the curse.
I'm gonna need $10,000 you'llget it back, of course, but I
(16:44):
just need it to to perform aritual and you know what happens
after that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, just if I can give myself a quick plug.
In my second book I wrote acharacter who things kept going
wrong in the flats that the leadcharacter lives in, and so a
psychic came in and said I canremove the curse.
The whole thing was about acurse.
And who believes that and whodoesn't believe that?
It's very, very interesting,isn't it that where the belief
(17:12):
comes from, how sustained thebelief is, how, how easy or
difficult it is to actually, asto your point, to actually get
into someone's head and go.
You really need to look at theevidence for this.
You need to look at it because,of course, we use confirmation
bias, don't we?
I'll get into that with susanabout why it is that psychics,
um, are so successful.
(17:35):
Because, of course, people.
It's it's motivated reasoning.
I'll remember the one thing,right, that was accurate, and
the rest of the dross will justgo out of my consciousness.
So before we wrap up, can youjust tell me your favourite
ghost hunting story?
Ooh, on the spot, my favouriteghost hunting story, or anyone
(17:57):
that sits, Because I know youtold a fantastic one at the
Skeptics Conference where youwent into a house.
I remember it was really cool.
Do you remember that it's gone?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
from your consciousness.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
It's floated off hasn't it which one was that, it
was a whole lot of you andthere was a house and everyone
was doing some sort of ghostinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Oh, yes, yes, the behind the scenes on the Ghost
Sending TV show.
So I will give you.
There's another one.
I wrote about this in one of mybooks and it's kind of a
complicated story, but also orI'll quickly summarize it,
basically I was living inBuffalo, new York, at the time,
which is where my magazine isbased, and I have since moved
(18:38):
back to New Mexico.
But I was at my desk one day andI got a call from a woman near
who lived nearby a place calledLackawanna, which is about 30
minutes outside of Buffalo, andshe asked for my help and I said
, well, how can I help you?
And she says, well, there's anevil spirit in my house.
Fair enough, and well and likeOkay.
(19:00):
And so I said, okay, well, Iwas actually, you know, I was
editing a magazine, I was notinvestigator mood, I got a cup
of coffee and this is the lastthing I was expecting at, you
know, 10 o'clock on a Tuesday.
But she, I said, you know, I'malways game to investigate, I'm
keen to do it, you know, this iswhat I love to do.
So I said, okay, fine.
(19:20):
So I said, well, tell me aboutit.
So I met with her and herhusband and she said well, I
said why do you think your houseis haunted?
And I put it again, not in achallenging way, I wasn't like
that's stupid.
I said you called me.
Why do you give me yourexplanation?
(19:41):
What do you think is going on?
And she says, well, there hadbeen a couple things going on
around the house, things theycouldn't explain, and they tried
to do their own investigation.
They had taken a couplephotographs.
Basically, they had used ghosthunting TV shows as a template,
which is bad idea.
Please don't do that.
They don't know what they'redoing.
(20:03):
But they were both fans of theghost hunters TV shows and they
said well, I guess this is howwe investigate ghosts, because
that's what they saw on tv.
And they did this half-assed,half-baked investigation which
did nothing but just furthertheir, their belief.
Uh.
And then they did somethingwhich they also shouldn't do,
which is, they called, in, apsychic always good you can
guess what.
(20:23):
You can guess what the psychictold.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, there was an evil spirit in the house and it
had been trapped there for 30years and they died in the house
and it was a murder.
Is that right?
Exactly, Annie, you're apsychic, I'm psychic, you know
this story.
Yes, you're a psychic.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yep.
So, and of course this is justpissing me off because once
again the psychic who thesepeople turned to for help made
the situation worse and gavethem misinformation and
basically convinced them that itwas in fact an evil spirit in
their house.
Anyway, I'll sort of skip overthe investigation.
(20:58):
Basically, I went through eachof their pieces of evidence.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
And what was it?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Things moving, or what was it well, so, so there
were a couple things, so I'llgive you one quick.
There are two examples.
So, uh, one was, um, uh, theyhad uh taken a, an audio
recorder and they'd placed itupstairs this was a split level
uh home.
So there was a father, uh, amother, and then a young
(21:26):
daughter who I think was aboutthree or so, and they were.
So this happened betweenThanksgiving and Christmas, and
they were so frightened, partlyby their experiences and partly
by the psychic who told, whowrongly told them their house
was haunted.
They were afraid to sleep intheir own home at night.
They were sleeping in their car.
They were sleeping with friendsbecause they were so scared in
their own home at night theywere sleeping in their car.
They were sleeping with friendsbecause they were so scared.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
The noises because of noises.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Right.
So what they did was they tooka tape recorder, and it was
actually a cassette tape.
This was some years ago, whenthese things were still around,
and this is how old I am yeahright.
And they put it on the top ofthe stairs and they recorded it
and then they basically I thinkthey left the house and then
(22:11):
they came back and then whenthey played it and they turned
it all the way up they heardvoices murmuring.
So they present this tape to meand I can probably figure out
what it is anyway.
So just to give one example.
So I listened to the tape andI'm guess I can probably figure
out what it is anyway.
So I'll just to give oneexample.
So I listened to the tape and Isaid, well, are you sure that
this wasn't just ambient sounds?
You live, there's houses allaround.
(22:33):
There's a there's a street right, and they said no, no, that
that's not, that can't be right,and said okay, fine.
So I took that exact same taperecorder and a different tape.
I placed it in the exact sameplace because I asked them where
was this.
I took a photograph of it andthen I asked the wife to stay
downstairs with the kid and the,the.
The father and I casuallywalked out into the, into the
(22:56):
front yard, by his car was, andwe spoke at normal levels.
So how's things going?
You know, are you still havingyou know experiences this and
that, this, and you still havingyou know experiences this and
that, this and that, just sortof you know casual conversation?
You know any changes, this andthat?
And then we went back.
You can guess where this isgoing.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
We went back up to the.
I rewound it and, sure enough,after they had assured me that
there's no way that thatvideotape could, that audio tape
could have recorded ambientsounds, Sure enough they
recorded ambient sounds.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
And it sounded like voices, right.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
It sounded like voices and we knew for a fact
that was us because and again, Iwasn't yelling, it was just
casual conversation I said, look, this is almost certainly a
doger or anyway.
So that's an example anyway.
So the reason this is myfavorite story, yeah, is that,
uh, I had solved most of themost of the different uh
(23:57):
experiences.
So anyway, if anyone'sinterested in in this case, it's
written up in my book,scientific paranormal
investigation, it's like chapterseven and we will put that in
the link.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
We'll put that in the show notes, your book and
people can read the whole thingI it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
It's a cool book anyway.
So who aren't going with this?
And part of the reason is I.
I like the story is that numberone.
It was a case where I wasactually able to help the people
I was.
I was the skeptic, but I wasgoing in there and I put in the
time.
I went there nights andweekends.
I was not getting paid for this, I was there to help them out
(24:32):
and anyway.
So I talked to them.
I think I spent about a week anda half there and the guy said
okay, well, you've explainedmost of the things.
I agree that most of the thingsthat we thought were ghosts
aren't actually ghosts.
He said, but there's one thingthat you're not going to be able
to explain and of course I'mlike do tell.
And uh, and I said what exactlyis it?
(24:54):
He said well, I was attacked bya ghost.
And I'm like this isinteresting.
I mean, I've investigated many,many hauntings and stuff.
I it's rare that someoneactually comes to me and flat
out says they've been attackedby a ghost, but I don't know.
So I said, well, what exactly?
What do you mean?
Let's parse this out.
(25:15):
When you say attacked by aghost, what exactly do you mean?
He says well, uh, he said that,so he has sleep apnea.
Uh, he was a big heavy guy, hewas a, he was a machine, he
worked at a auto plant.
In fact, um and uh and he, uh,he, uh.
His wife and daughter had sleptseparately, so he was by
(25:36):
himself on a cot not a full-sizebed, but a cot up up in, up in
upstairs what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
a cot, because a cot in australia is a thing you put
a baby in with sides on it yeah,it's more of a like a pull out
bed, got it like a.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, so it's.
It's not like a full-sizesturdy bed, but sort of a good a
metal.
Yeah, so, um, and he said well,what?
I said, what exactly happened?
He said, well, there's no.
You know, I was by myself, butas I was going to sleep, the
ghost kicked my bed and he saidagain my wife and daughter were
(26:13):
downstairs because I have sleepapnea, because I snore loudly
and she couldn't, and, plus,they were, of course, frightened
.
And he said I was just layingin bed and as I was drifting to
sleep, the whole bed shook.
And he said this happened acouple different times and it
scared the hell out of him.
He was like there's noexplanation.
There's no one else around, I'malone in the room, what's going
(26:34):
on?
It must be a ghost and that wasone of the sort of the key, one
of the key mysteries of thiscase and I didn't know what to
make of it because you know italready happened.
I mean, I'm not going to stakeit, I'm not going to spend the
night in his room waiting for itSitting in the corner.
I guess I could, butunfortunately I didn't get onto
(26:56):
that.
But as it happened, that verynight or actually the second
night of my investigation,because again this happened
between thanksgiving, and and uhand christmas I was over at a
friend's house and we were justmaking casual conversation, um,
and it was my girlfriend'sfriends, and they said well, you
(27:16):
know, so you know, we're justcatching up.
You know how things are, thefactory, how things that and and
uh, her, her friend's husband,was a police officer and he's
talking about some cases he'sworking on.
And they asked me what I'mdoing.
And I said well, since youasked, I'm investigating a
haunted house down the road.
I said but there's one thing Ican't.
So I said maybe you guys canhelp me figure it out, because
(27:37):
I'm kind of stumped on it.
And my girlfriend's friend, shesays well, it sounds like
restless leg syndrome, yep.
And I said well, what do youmean?
And so she says well, you know,john, when he's going to sleep
in the bed, his legs shake, hislegs twitches, yeah, and that
(28:01):
hadn't crossed my mind.
And what happened in the yearsafterwards?
Certainly here in America?
Suddenly we're getting a bunchof advertisements on TV for RLS
Yep yeah.
My husband's had it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but at thetime this was, I mean, I'm not
saying this was an unknowncondition, but it wasn't really,
wasn't really.
Yeah, I didn't see any ads forit, it was sort of unknown and
(28:23):
I'm like, oh, my God, that'swhat that is.
And so I did some research onRLS and it happens, especially
happens with people who havesleep apnea.
Yep, it happens as you're goingto sleep.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, on the brink of sleep, right on the brink of
sleep.
100% yeah, and I realized.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
that was the explanation, that was what he
thought.
That was what he thought.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That was why he thought he's alone in his room
as he's going to sleep, he feelsa kick on the bed.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
He doesn't realize he's doing it.
No, that's right, and henaturally assumes that it's some
evil spirit in the house.
And did you tell him that?
I did, and it was interesting,because a lot of times when I
solve mysteries, they don't wantto hear it.
But in this case, keep in mind,this was scaring them.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
It was genuinely frightening.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And so what I did was and I'm kind of proud of myself
for the way I handled it I wentthrough each piece of evidence
they had given me.
I said here's this photograph.
I duplicated it.
This is not a evil, demonicface in a window.
This is, this is a reflection.
Here you go yeah here.
You know, here's we.
(29:33):
We went through the audio tapewhich you were sure must be
ghosts, but in fact it was meand tony outside talking about
normal things.
So I went through piece bypiece by piece and again, I
didn't come in gangbusters, I'mMr Know-it-all skeptic.
You guys are full of shit.
You're crazy.
I went in there saying this isan interesting mystery, I don't
(29:54):
know.
Help me solve this.
So I engaged them into it and Iexplained it piece by piece and
I recognized that because oftheir background.
So they were.
They were roman catholic andthey had brought in a.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
You can maybe see where we're going with this they
had brought in a priest, yeah,to do an exorcism right and so
spinning head with green vomitright fortunately, there was no
green vomit, no masturbationthat I saw, uh, which is
probably just as well, um andand.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
But here's the thing is, is I recognized that if I
told them there was never aghost here, they might not
believe me.
So so so, because even though Ihad pretty much conclusively
shown them at one point, theywere pretty sure there was one.
So here's what I said.
I said I don't think there wasa ghost here.
If there was, it is now gone,and by doing so I left open the,
(30:54):
the, the door right.
So I said, I said you know, Idon't think there's anything
supernatural here, I don't thinkthere ever was.
But if you believe that therewas, I'm, I will grant you that
belief.
But let's agree that's nolonger here, perfect, and that
they, they got relieved andthey're like yes, it's over and
(31:15):
um it didn't puncture theiridentity right no, and, and I I
crafted it carefully so that itwouldn't smart smart and I
helped them out, and that's acase I'm proud of.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think.
Well, of course, that's whatthey.
It's definitely what they sayabout dealing with conspiracy
theories and conspiracytheorists is to find the
commonality.
There's no point going in withall guns blazing going.
You're a knob if you believethis, and I'm really intelligent
(31:50):
and I'm smart because allyou're doing is just widening
the divide, right yeah, it'scounterproductive.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Um, you know, mick west has an excellent book
called escaping the rabbit hole.
Uh, he wrote a couple yearsback and he talks about, uh, the
the psychology of helpingpeople out of conspiracy
thinking and, exactly as yousaid, part of the idea is to
build bridges right instead ofgoing into it, guns blazing.
And you're all stupid assholesand I'm the smart ass skeptic.
(32:17):
Uh, you go in there saying look,I you I don't know everything,
help me figure this out and whenyou engage them, when you show
them respect even if they knowthat you're a skeptic, even if
they know that you're probablygoing to find some explanation
for it if you show them respect,that builds bridges and that
(32:38):
can sort of help bring peopletogether.
I mean this isn't like akumbaya moment, but it's a case
of where these people neededhelp.
They called me.
I didn't call them.
They called me, uh, and theysaw that I was taking time out
of my again night and weekendsto go to their house.
I wasn't getting paid.
I wasn't.
I later turned it.
I later wrote a chapter aboutit, with their permission, but I
(33:02):
mean, this was not the to me.
There was me trying to helpsomebody else out as I would
anybody.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah, it's showing care, it's showing compassion
and it's coming from anon-judgmental place, and I
think that's really hardsometimes, isn't it?
Because you just want to slappeople around the head and go.
What are you thinking?
When I was it reminded me thatwhen I was in my early 20s I did
every Australian girl.
What we do is we go on Europeanodysseys because it's so far
(33:32):
here.
We never just go for like threeweeks or two weeks, we just go
and live overseas.
And I'd gone.
I was about 22, and I'd gone toEurope and I'd washed up on
this little Greek island calledPatmos and I'd run out of money
and my parents were really,really sick of sending me money
and rescuing me right, and I wastoo embarrassed to ask again.
(33:56):
So I set myself up down in the,in one of those squares on this
island and said that I was anAustralian psychic and
fortunately for me, I did notsee that coming.
My first customer was this girl.
(34:19):
I didn't know a thing, I knew Iwasn't.
I didn't know anything, but I'mgood with people and I always
knew I was good with people.
And anyway, she showed me herpalm and I said are you a twin?
She was, she was a twin.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Wow, well done.
Thank you, you played the.
You know, you just don't know.
Oh my God, are you a twin?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Oh, my God, Are you a twin anyway.
She's like oh my God, I am, I am, I'm a twin.
Oh my God, you're like somesort of miracle.
It was quite a bad Greek accent, I apologize for that.
Anyway, so I don't know.
I think I don't know anything,but I was reading a palm and
there's two lines across.
I said that anyway.
(35:02):
Because of that and because itwas such a small community, I
had days and days of customerscoming to me and I know, and I
made, I only said nice things.
I just said nice things to them, everything was going to be
lovely and they'd have a goodlife.
And then I made some money, notenough actually to fly home,
(35:27):
but just enough to drink somemore Retsina, which can.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I say, oh, that's all you did, right.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Can I say at this point Retsina, which is Greek
wine.
It tastes like Dettol and tothis day I've never been able to
bear it.
Anyway, I just made enough.
I minned about on this islandfor quite a few weeks and then
eventually fessed up to my dad.
I said can you please just flyme home?
He said, yes, all right, anne,and home I went.
(35:55):
But I think that was just thatluck of the draw, right.
And it's the same with anybodythat you nail one and
confirmation bias hits in andit's motivated reasoning.
We that you know you nail oneand confirmation bias hits in
and it's motivated reasoning.
We want to believe, don't we,that there's an answer out there
.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I'll tell you a quick story.
I had a similar case.
I'm I was in high school, umnear where I am now, and I was
in a in a shop class and therewere there were groups of tables
.
There were four people at atable and there was this one guy
I don't remember his name, wecalled him drac, like dracula,
because he had sort of uh,incisors.
And one day, just out of theblue, with no, no, just out of
(36:36):
the blue, I turned to him and Ilooked him dead in the eye and
we didn't know each other verywell.
We were, you know, classmates.
We didn't, we didn't hang out,but we, you know, we knew each
other.
I said I just, I don't knowwhere.
I said I better know your mom'smiddle name.
And he said no, you don't.
I said yeah, I do.
He said what is it?
I said it's ann, and the blooddrained from his face.
(36:59):
He, you would think I just, youknow, got a taint with a cattle
prod.
He was just like he was just,he was apoplectic and he visibly
stiffened.
He's like how did you know that?
Do you know my mom?
I almost did a joke there, butno, and he's like how did you
(37:24):
know that?
And he was freaking out, um,and I just smiled and he never
sat next to me for the rest ofthe semester, uh, but, as you
can imagine, I just I looked itup and anne is the most common
female middle name yeah uh, andI just happened to get it and to
this day right.
So 40 years later, 30 yearslater, he's probably still
(37:46):
telling you about the kid in inhigh school shop class who, dead
out of nowhere, told him hismom's name and there's no way I
could have known it dead out ofnowhere and he, and if he, ever
finds out what you do now, right, you're right, did you trying
to debunk yourself?
Right, Sorry Drac, Sorry Drac.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Oh, that's so funny.
It's so funny.
Well, ben, we have talked for along time and it has been
absolutely wonderful.
I thank you so much for yourtime, because you probably got
to go and check out a ghostsomewhere, do you?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
A little bit.
I've always got projects goingon.
I'm making a documentary, I'mwriting an article, uh, mirrored
things, but I just I was sodelighted to get your message.
I remembered you, of course,from from the, the australian
skeptics, and uh, I've, I've.
You know, I made some suchgreat friends, you know know,
tim and Lara and Richard and thegang there.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
They're awesome, aren't they?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And it was just so much fun and I thank you so much
for inviting me.
This has been a delight.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Oh, my absolute pleasure, and I will put
Squaring the Strange in the shownotes so people can listen to
your podcast and maybe at someother point in the future you
might come back on and tell memore stories.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I would be delighted to.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
And if you ever get a decent government, I will come
over to America and say hello.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Any time now, the sooner the better, the sooner
the better, believe me Okay okay, so lovely to talk.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Thank you so much, ben.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
See you later, thank you.
And thank you so much, smartwomen, for tuning in.
See you later, thank you.
And thank you so much, smartwomen, for tuning in.
See you next week.
Thanks for tuning into whysmart women with me.
Annie McCubbin, I hope today'sepisode has ignited your
curiosity and left you feelinginspired by my anti motivational
style.
Join me next time as wecontinue to unravel the
(39:44):
fascinating layers of our brainsand develop ways to sort out
the fact from the fiction andthe over 6,000 thoughts we have
in the course of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
(40:06):
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work,
car park, in a bar or in yourown home, please, please,
respect that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate and review the podcast and
(40:28):
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together, we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time.
Stay sharp, stay savvy and keepyour critical thinking hat
shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from why Smart Women See you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(40:51):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, annie McCubbin.
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