November 17, 2025 • 50 mins
We challenge celebrity myths about vaccines, unpack the “too many too soon” claim, and show how grifters turned doubt into profit while measles and whooping cough return. We share practical steps to talk to hesitant loved ones and protect vulnerable kids now.
• why the “Forest of the Fallen” misleads
• how celebrity rhetoric fuels vaccine hesitancy
• the autism link myth debunked with evidence
• Andrew Wakefield’s conflicts and commercial motives
• RFK Jr. and the business of misinformation
• Samoa’s collapse in coverage and tragic outcomes
• herd immunity explained and why timing matters
• babies’ immune capacity versus vaccine antigens
• outbreaks tied to delayed or skipped shots
• how to talk to hesitant friends and family
• practical steps to protect children and communities
Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances to faux fur
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own share of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband.
I don't make him, but I did gothrough some shocks to find him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from theNorthern Beaches in Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia.
It is a funny old grey springday.
(01:11):
This morning I picked ourdaughter up from the airport,
and she had just got back fromSouth Korea.
And she remarked the weather wasabout the same.
She liked Korea.
Did I tell you that, David?
She quite liked South Korea.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
She enjoyed it.
It was really cool.
Anyway, that's not what we'retalking about today.
So two things have happened tome over the last 24 hours, which
were relevant.
And the first one was that Icame across yesterday, I was
(01:52):
having a lovely time down in DYat the beach.
It was hot yesterday, it waslike 30 degrees, it was
gorgeous.
And um, I was having a nicecoffee with my friend Judy, and
I chanced upon the Forest of theFallen, which is an installation
(02:13):
that is put up by the localanti-vaxxers.
And what they do, I've spokenabout this before on the
podcast.
It's deeply infuriating.
But anyway, they laminatepictures of people that have
purported to have died fromvaccine injuries.
But upon investigation by peoplelike the Snakey Gherkin, they
(02:35):
have discovered that they hadnot died from vaccine injury.
In fact, sometimes they'd hadthe vaccine in March and they'd
died in December in a caraccident, which is not really
causative, is it?
And other people were stillalive.
So this big sort of lie wherewhat they do is they stick these
laminated pictures in the groundon sticks, and then they
(02:57):
encourage people to come overand ask them.
And people go, What happened?
And they go, Well, this is whathappens if you take the highly
dangerous vaccine.
So um I wandered over and tookpictures so I could give it to
the Snake Gherkin, who's my ummy chief debunker.
And I said to them, Youshouldn't be doing this.
(03:17):
This is spreading dangerouslies.
And they got very upset with meand started screaming at me that
I was a homicidal maniac and amurderer.
Um, anyway, I left them alone.
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
What what you you're you were expecting them to be
grateful for your your yourperformance feedback?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, I thought maybe they might like to hear
from me.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
They might they might take up their little
laminated photographs on sticksand and and put them away
because because you have emergedfrom the the DY crowd and told
them that they shouldn't bedoing it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Okay.
And it didn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Amazing, isn't it?
Yeah.
Anyway, that happened.
SPEAKER_02 (03:54):
If they knew you like I knew you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
That oh, that's my phone.
That could be one of them now,messaging me going, Annie.
SPEAKER_02 (04:00):
We've changed our mind.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
You're you're so right.
God, if only we'd spoken to youbefore we laminated the pictures
of the non-dead people.
Anyway, so that was yesterday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Some of the some of them, some of them, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Are dead.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Are dead, aren't they?
I mean, so some of them, youknow.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
But it's it's it's they're spuriously um some of
them are dead, but that it hasspuriously been definitely
related to vaccine injury, butthere's no evidence for that.
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
So so so so they're actually misrepresenting the
entire reality, even thoughthere are there are kernels of
truth, snapshots of truththrough all the.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
No, there's not snapshots of truth.
There's just some dead peopleand also some alive people.
Many.
What?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Well, you you know, if they're that if they're dead,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yeah, but there's the the fa the families have
complained.
They've gone, do not use myhusband.
My husband's picture in yourridiculous Forest of the Fallen.
He died of a stroke.
It had nothing to do with thebody.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Oh, right, that's it.
Okay, so that's a that's athat's a grubby act.
That's that that's definitelydistorting the truth.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
It's a grubby act.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Then I get over that.
Right.
I managed to get over that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
You did you didn't read today's Sydney Morning
Herald, did you?
Yes, I did.
The Fitzfilza Oh I know it's Iknow it's got you cross.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Yes, I did in fact read the Sydney Morning Herald.
Now, for some of the youngerpeople who may be listening to
this highly informative,interesting podcast Like Harry.
Like Harrison.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Yeah, Harrison.
He has to listen.
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
David, I haven't in I haven't invited you to to
actually contribute yet.
Okay, sorry.
Please be quiet.
Thank you.
Um there was I'm about to inviteyou though.
SPEAKER_02 (05:46):
Oh.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
There was a mini-series um back in 1982, 83.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Called The Thornbirds.
The Thornbirds.
I love the Thornbirds.
Oh, well, I mean, uh TheThornbirds was um was that you
know, that that that that greatsprawling Australian novel.
It was like dynasty set inAustralia.
And um, you know, yeah, whowrote it?
Colin McCulloch.
Oh, well done.
Was w was the Thornbirds.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I've had less sleep than you, that's why I'm not
really on the board.
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
And I r I remember the moment the most beautiful
woman in the world appeared atthe top of the staircase.
Um not Mrs.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Danvers.
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
No, no.
No, no, that was another bookaltogether.
No, I I I I I I can remember themoment, you know?
Uh and and and and she literallywas the most beautiful woman
that I had ever seen ontelevision.
Yeah.
And her name, the actor, wasRachel Ward.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
What was the character?
The character?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
Well, I mean, she was the she was the femme fatale
in the Thornbirds.
She was the um, you know, shewas the one that was the the
sexy love interest.
Yeah, the Brian Brown characterBrian Brown's character fell in
love with her.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
What?
What about Richard Chamberlain?
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
Richard Chamberlain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Richard Chamberlain was the lead in it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Was he a priest?
I've really I'm really foggy onthe details.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Who fell in love with her?
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
Wasn't it was it wasn't it Brian Brown?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
But what about Richard Chamberlain?
Wasn't he the wasn't that thebig love interest?
SPEAKER_02 (07:08):
I look i I was I was very young at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Oh shut up.
Oh my gosh.
So she Yeah.
We we will get together the sdetails between our three.
Because it's so important.
Well, it is sort of anyway.
So she there was Rachel Ward,and she was called at the time
one of the most um beautifulwomen in the world.
(07:35):
I think one of the top ten.
She was a model, she wasastonishingly beautiful.
Let's have a look.
The Thornbird.
See, there's the picture wherenow David's pulled it up.
So the whole thing was it wasthis incredibly sort of
fabulous, sexy story about theforbidden love between uh Maggie
Cleary and the family's priest,father Ralph De Bricasart,
(07:55):
played by Richard Chamberlain.
So it's this very, very sexystory, and she was
extraordinarily sexy andgorgeous, and that's where she
met her current husband.
Anyway, so this morning I openup the Sydney Morning Herald,
and there's an interview betweenPeter Fitzsimon, who I really do
admire, and Rachel Ward.
(08:16):
And she's um doing somethingreally positive with cows and
poo, cow poo.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
She's a farmer now.
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
She's she's a farmer.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
And she's doing this, you know, I think probably
very helpful for itsenvironment, this way of raising
and breeding cattle that is goodfor the cattle and good for the
environment.
All fine so far.
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
That's tremendous.
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
She's pretty.
She's been married for 40 yearsto Brian Brown.
Brian Brown's an Australianactor, we talked like that.
Brian Brown.
Brian Brown.
Brian Brown.
Um, and she's now doingsomething that's ecologically
positive.
SPEAKER_02 (08:56):
Admirable.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
All good.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
But why are you mad?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
I am mad because she has come out today in print and
has stated some untruths aboutvaccine and the link between
vaccines and autism.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
And I'm furious about it.
Well, didn't it just sort ofarise in the in the interview
with Fitz?
And she just kind of said, yeah,she had her doubts and, you
know, thinks that it should beorganized differently because
the way that it's being done is.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Why are you using that sort of ameliorating tone?
Well, I'm really annoyingbecause she thinks she's still
pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
I'm just I'm I'm I'm trying to be even-handed and
represent what was actually whatwhat was actually articulated.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
All right.
Well, I'll tell you what wasarticulated.
Hang on a sec.
He asked her if she wasanti-vax, and she apparently
took a really long consideredpause and then said that she
thought that the vaccineschedule was um, you know, there
was sort of too many vaccinesbeing shoveled into babies in
(10:06):
too short a period of time.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
And that What's the danger of that?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
What's her concern that the danger of it overwhelms
her immune system or somethingthat is completely d do you know
something about that?
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
No, I've uh um no, I do know something about that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Well I is that rubbish?
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
It's rubbish as it's I I I do know that babies have
incredible immune systems whenthey're born.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Um and does it hurt them having a whole lot of
vaccines?
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
Well, it I think that if you have a properly sort
of you know administered um uhschedule of vaccines as as as
suggested by the um the medicalprofession.
Yes.
Then it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Of course it's a good thing.
It stimulates the immune system.
Yeah it's ridiculous.
Anyway, she said somethingbecause she's had this
background where she mixed withthe rich and famous, right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Right.
So she had met um RFK's son andactually dated him for a bit.
Oh, did she?
Apparently.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Rachel Ward?
Yeah.
What before Brian Brown?
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Brian Brown.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Yeah.
But I mean, she's been withBrian for so many years.
This was this wasn't this wasn'ta dalliance, was it?
This wasn't a sort of apost-Brian dalliance.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
No, no, no, no, no, it's long, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Oh, this was before that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, so then she praised, shesaid to Fitz how great she
thought RFK was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Right.
And then She must have herreasons.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Um And then she said that she sort of inferred that
vaccines caused autism and heand she said, Are you telling
me, Fitz, that you don't agreewith this?
And Fitz said quite sensibly, Icertainly do not.
(11:52):
Don't tell me you do, and sheuttered these words.
She said this.
Well, where else is it comingfrom?
What's wrong with really lookingat where it's come from?
Holy moly, how many times do wehave to debunk the myth that
(12:15):
vaccines cause autism?
It is in the gene.
It's in the gene, it's gotabsolutely nothing to do with
the vaccines.
And then he says, please tell mean anti-vaxxer.
And she said, after a lot, Ilike the way they write long
silence in print, as if theperson is giving a really
(12:37):
considered answer and just beingreally sensible and and sort of
um, you know, considered.
And she said, I was vaccinated,but I certainly question the
whole way it was done.
Do you, Rachel?
I question the necessary, thelockdowns, and all of that.
Do you?
Okay.
And I'm definitely in tune withthe people who question it all
(13:00):
and still protest against it.
Which says to me, she was intune with those people yesterday
that called me a homicidalmaniac and a murderer because I
had questioned their fake forestof the fallen laminated
pictures.
That is who she's supporting.
And those are the people thatare spreading the
(13:22):
misinformation, thedisinformation.
But someone like Rachel Ward,who's famous and really pretty
and married to somebody reallyfamous, her word really, really
counts.
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's a um it's a kind oflet them eat cake moment, isn't
it?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:42):
You know, um Yeah.
Yeah, I like that.
People are unhappy about this,so uh, you know, if they're h if
they can't get bread, let themeat cake.
Yeah.
Um it's it's the um it's whensomeone's got a a a degree of
celebrity they are probablyreasonably wealthy and
(14:03):
reasonably set up.
And I think that we know thatone of the unfortunate things
that happen when people have ittoo easily, they start to think
that they're entitled for thatto continue.
I'm wealthy, I've got lots ofmoney, there's lots of people
trying to please me.
So really my life should turnout the way I want it to.
(14:25):
But the funny thing about life,the thun funny thing about
nature is that sometimes we wedon't lose lose the gen uh we
don't win the genetic lottery,and there are forces that are
beyond our control.
And unfortunately, if if youknow you may be born with uh uh
y your your child may be bornwith a susceptibility for any
(14:46):
kind of disease.
Um and uh and I think that thatthe the wealthy celebrity finds
it difficult to understand thatsometimes life is just pretty
shitty, and they, like the restof the people on the planet, are
subject to that reality, andthey don't like it.
(15:06):
So they have to find somethingcausative that they can blame.
And so they go in search for areason why my life, why my
child, is not perfect, and theyfind one.
And I I tend to think thatthat's that's kind of at the
heart of it.
I mean, you've got your RachelWard, we've also got your
gentleman.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
They don't have an autistic child, Rachel Ward and
Brian Brown.
SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
Yeah, but um but they don't like to live in a
universe where bad things canhappen to to famous celebrities,
and so she feels for the peopleum who feel aggrieved by the
fact that their agency has beeneroded by a government that
wants to keep everybody alive byvaccinating them.
So she feels for them.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I didn't understand that last point.
Can you say that again?
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Yeah, sure.
Um okay.
Uh well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
What I'm saying is I think she's caught up in the
appeal to nature bullshit.
That's what I think is going on.
I think she's doing somefabulous or or organic farming
and patting cows and living onthe land, and she's removed
herself from the the vagariesand the you know the tinsel
environment of Hollywood.
She's removed herself, so she'snow close to nature, she's with
(16:17):
the cows, and she's on and off atractor.
SPEAKER_02 (16:19):
Which is wonderfully self-deterministic.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
It's self-deterministic and it's
close to nature.
Yeah, yeah.
And what happens when we startthinking that nature is
providing us with everything?
It's an appeal to nature bias.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
Yeah, exactly.
So so don't interfere withnature by putting pesticides
into the environment.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
Or putting vaccines into the bloodstreams of those
little babies.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Tiny babies.
Forgetting that.
Forgetting that, um, you know,people used to have, you know,
six, seven children because fivedied of things that we have
eradicated.
This debate is not a both sideshave a point, right?
(17:02):
This is people like Rachel Ward,celebrities with platforms
spreading lies that haveliterally killed children and
are bringing back diseases thatwe've eliminated.
What's going on with measles?
Oh my voice is so high.
What's going on with measles andhooping cough at the moment?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_02 (17:19):
Well, I do know that we've got measles and hooping
cough happening in places whereit shouldn't be happening.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yeah, exactly.
And why is that?
If it was eradicated, what onearth has brought it back?
That's the other thing, is thatis that the the pro-nature crowd
think that measles are, youknow, perfectly benign.
It's just another little virus.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
Oh, yeah, nice if you haven't got got the measles
to say that it's benign.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
I it's it's it's really quite extraordinary that
um that measles around theplanet is having a um a
resurgence?
Look, uh a comeback.
Um you know, like a like a likea like a 1980s rock band.
Yeah, they're coming back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Um I've got a stat for you.
As of November the twelfth, twothousand and twenty-five, a
total of one thousand sevenhundred and twenty-three
confirmed measle cases werereported in the US.
Now let's remember it waspreviously eradicated, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
Yeah.
The measles vaccine compped alot of bad press.
Um I I know I know that youdon't want to go tremendously
into the bad work of AndrewWakefield.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
I don't mind.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Okay.
So um uh look, Andrew Wakefield,you know, celebrity anti-vaxxer.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Um, you know Do you reckon he sort of started the
whole thing?
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Wake Wakefield?
So do you want me to fill in thethe the blanks about Andrew
Wakefield for perhaps those whodon't know?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
So he's still quoted, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Oh, definitely.
And and and and and certainlythe damage that Wakefield has
done um continues.
So, you know, he he was one thatthat that that really kicked off
the vaccine causes autism umstory.
Um the the thing about AndrewWakefield is he has been you
know completely debunked and andum it's clear that his
(19:09):
motivation for taking thisposition was actually
commercially driven.
Um he was being paid, he wasbeing personally paid by lawyers
who were preparing a lawsuitagainst the manufacturers of the
vaccine.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
I did not know that.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Yeah, so I mean he was paid like about half a
million pounds in in today'smoney.
He was paid by the lawyers whowere preparing the the lawsuit
against the MMR.
Yeah, that's right.
This vast amount of money.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
This is Mum's Rebella, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
He he he disguised absolutely nothing, didn't tell
anybody.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
In unethical.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
That's right.
And he was being paid by thisfirm two years before he
published uh a paper in theLancet uh um uh attempting to um
to to vilify MMR vaccines.
And he wasn't just working forthe lawyers, he had his own
business plan.
He'd filed a patent for a rivalmeasles vaccine before he
(20:07):
launched his campaign againstthe MMR.
He was trying to destroyconfidence in the existing
vaccine so he could sell hisown.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Can you say that again?
Because that is really that isreally major.
So he was actually developing avaccine.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
A rival vaccine.
He had he had filed a patent fora rival vaccine.
Um and so, yes, he would he hehe he wanted the MMR vaccine,
completely vilified, destroy theconfidence in that so that he
could sell his own.
And it gets darker.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
It's it's worked as well.
It is actually he's done it,he's done it.
One man, go keep going.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
So it gets even worse than that.
Gets darker than that.
Wakefield was involved in aventure to market diagnostic
test kits for autisticenterocolitis.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Which is a made-up thing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
Well, him, yeah, that's right.
That was that was the conditionthat he invented.
SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
So you know he invents a condition.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
And then here's a diagnostic test that'll prove
whether you got it or not.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
And the reports tell us that he predicted he would
make more than 43 million a yearfrom these kits.
And one of the companies that heplanned to launch was was called
Carmel Healthcare.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
Oh, that's nice.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Limited.
And that was his wife at thetime.
He was married to Carmel.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
So he actually named his fraudulent company, right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
After his wife.
After his wife.
And and it and it's really clearthat it was just a con.
But you see, this kind of griftdidn't end with him.
Yeah.
The modern anti-vaccine movementhas professionalized it.
So now we've got.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
So this is where we have RFK Jr., that's right, who
Rachel Ward has just lionizedfor being such a great guy
because he's come out going, youknow, st stop l stop hurting our
children.
Stop hurting our children withall these vaccines.
SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
Well, I mean, yeah, RFK chairs an organization
called the Children's HealthDefence.
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
Which is ironic, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Well, it sounds like a benign children's charity, but
it's not.
It's one of the most prolificsources of vaccine
misinformation in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
And so, okay, what do they do?
Well, they press is this withJoe McColler?
I think this is with JoeMcColler.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
He he's he's he he he's he's one of the
contributors for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They produce these very slickmedical, you know,
professional-looking contentthat spreads information that's
already been debunked, but itspreads fear.
They file lawsuits againstvaccine mandates, they lobby
politicians, and importantly,they fundraise, they raise
(22:36):
money.
The Children's Health Defense isa multi-million dollar
organization.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Wow.
And so he's banging on, right?
RFK bangs on about big pharmaprofits, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
But at simultaneously at the same time,
he's running a hugely profitableanti-vaccine business, right?
Spreading vaccine information.
SPEAKER_02 (23:06):
That's right.
Um, and children's healthdefense is a multi-million
dollar organization.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
So, how much money are we talking if it's a
multi-million dollarorganization?
Okay, look, um Is it just todefend poor little children?
Possibly not.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Well, possibly not.
Um in 2021, they had reportedrevenues of over seven million
dollars, and and RFK himselftook a salary of over$350,000
from the organization.
So, you know, pedal anti-vaxinformation and get a big fat
salary while you're doing it.
And it would have been only oneof his many sources of in of uh
(23:39):
of revenue.
So while he's banging on aboutbig pharma profits, he's running
a profitable anti-vaccine bbusiness.
He's written books, he's he hehe he's delivered countless paid
speeches, and he's he'sbasically built a career on
fear.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
And the thing is that his own family, right, have
repudiated him.
He's an embarrassment.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean that they're not they're
not stupid.
They can see what he's doing,and it's not just about the
money that he's making, eventhough that's obscene, that he's
making money from this.
It's actually the real-worldharm that he does.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
All right, so let's let's actually unpack the harm
because it's it's reallyimportant for anybody that's
listening to this podcast tounderstand that what David and I
are talking about here is nottheoretical.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
These it's it's not just us, you know, having a go
at these elites who are makinglots of money.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
No, it's about the fact that vulnerable people,
vulnerable children, vulnerableadults who are at the behest of
this false information aredying.
It really matters.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
I mean, look, after afterWakefield's, you know, um uh 15
minutes of fame or his time inthe in in the sun when he took
the you know took thesledgehammer to to to vaccine
policy, MMR vaccination ratesfell in the in the UK from
ninety-two per cent to as low asseventy-three percent.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Nearly twenty percent.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah, and look, some parts of London it it dropped to
fifty per cent, which is belowthe threshold for herd immunity.
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Which means that even the vaccinated children are
at risk, right?
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
And and the consequence of that, measles
came roaring back.
By by by 2008, um, the UK hadits first measles death in 14
years.
And and in the US, which hadbeen you know measles-free,
yeah, they're getting they weregetting outbreaks again.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
But now that RFK is the health secretary.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
Can you believe that happened?
Can you believe that you've gota grifter of that magnitude as
the health secretary of theUnited States?
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
He's making money, he's making policy that can can
help him continue to make money.
Last year, the United States sawa significant measles
resurgence.
You know, it it it it was itused to be wiped out, but now
there were multiple outbreaks,primarily in communities with
low vaccination rates, and we'reseeing the same pattern with
hooping cough.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So, what's happened with hooping cough?
It was a disaster for smallbabies, right?
Yeah, absolute disaster.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
So we used to vaccine.
Um, in 2024, hooping cough casesin the US surged to levels not
seen in over a decade.
Over 32,000 cases were reported,more than six times the number
from the previous year.
And of course, it's infants whoare particularly vulnerable.
And as we know, hooping coughcan be fatal for babies that are
(26:42):
too young to be vaccinated.
So this is where the herdimmunity thing is a is a is a
major thing.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
So if you get it, you you it's very, very
dangerous.
And the the thing the thingthat's got me so riled up today
is all these diseases werecompletely eradicated.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
Look, they were eradicated, and it wasn't just
because the the vaccinesexisted, they did have to be
administered properly.
And um, I mean, if the story ofwhat happened in in Samoa is
just is manifestly tragic.
Um so two babies in Samoa diedfrom an MMR vaccine.
(27:26):
But this w happened because itwas incorrectly prepared by the
nurses.
They mixed it up with expiredanesthetic instead of water, and
it was a tragic preventableerror.
But of course, the government,you know, worried they suspended
the vaccination program for 10months while they investigated
what's not unreasonable.
It is not unreasonable, but theanti-vaccine activists saw an
(27:47):
opportunity, and what they didwas they flooded Samoan social
media with misinformation,exploiting the tragedy to spread
fear, um, and that's where itconnects to our current
celebrities.
One of the influencers who wasactive in Samoa's anti-vaccine
community promoted content fromthe Children's Health Defense
(28:07):
RFK's organization.
The vaccine rate collapsed from72% to just above 30%.
And then when a travellerbrought measles to the island,
in a population of only about200,000 people, there were over
5,700 cases and 83 people died.
Most of them influence youngchildren.
(28:28):
Um, the Samoan governmentrealized the mistake, they
declared a state of emergency,they went from door to door
mandating vaccination, but atthat stage the damage was done.
SPEAKER_00 (28:38):
So let's just really, you know, underline
that.
(29:04):
Now they're you know, in chargeof the health ministry in
America, and this lie is nowspread by celebrities like
Rachel Ward, who think thatbecause they have a um a
platform, they have a right tocomment on matters that should
(29:29):
belong in the scientificcommunity.
Wow.
You know, when Rachel Ward orany other celebrity talks about
doing their own research orfollowing the money, this is
where it leads.
Dead children.
Honestly, this is where itleads.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
I mean, one of the um one of the one of the
arguments that you do hear fromsmart, well meaning parents is
they'll say, Look, I'm not antivaxx, but I just think that the
schedule's too aggressive.
You know, too many vaccines toosoon.
You know, can can we space themout?
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Which of course, you know, if you think about that
and you you know, you're sittingaround and you're you're having
a bit of a I don't know, aSaturday night margarita with uh
the other parents of your fivemonths, you know, perhaps you're
in a a mother's group, right?
Having a bit of a drink.
SPEAKER_02 (30:19):
Having having having margaritas with the mother's
group.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Yeah, sure.
Well I did.
Okay, yeah.
I was bottle feeding at thatpoint.
Um, you know, and you're havinga little chat about it and
everyone's sort of in this tacitagreement that it's all a bit
much, right?
Your baby's only twelve twelveweeks old or sixteen weeks old.
Why don't we spread them out?
I mean it sounds reasonable,does it not?
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah, look, it it it it sounds reasonable to somebody
who's not an epidemiologist, youknow, who's not a doctor, who
doesn't understand the baby'simmune system and when they need
to be uh and when they need tobe vaccinated.
Yeah.
It sounds fair enough.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
And but all it takes is that one decision to delay
something, and then what haveyou got?
You've got measles, or have yougot hooping cough?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Oh, so actually what you're saying is um in people's
efforts to protect theirchildren, to spread the vaccines
out so they don't overwhelm thechild.
We'll talk about the notion ofoverwhelming the child's immune
system in a minute.
I know I mentioned it before,but we can unpack that a bit
more.
They're actually endangeringtheir children because a sneaky
(31:23):
virus can get in, right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
Children's immune systems are actually
extraordinarily powerful fromthe moment of birth.
Babies are exposed to thousandsof bacteria, viruses, and other
antigens every single day, youknow, when they put their hands
in their mouths, when they puttheir toys in their mouths, when
they breathe, when they read.
They're they're encountering farmore immune challenges than any
(31:46):
individual vaccine presents.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
So you're saying a baby just going through the
course of their day, stickingtheir hands in their mouths, or,
I don't know, breathe they mightgo out on the street and they
could breathe in a virus orsomething.
SPEAKER_02 (32:00):
Oh, of course, you know, they're they're everywhere
all the time.
And the natural immune systemcan handle those things, and so
a vaccine, small dose of the ofthe thing that we're wanting to
protect ourselves again, itdoesn't overwhelm.
It cannot overwhelm.
It's uh it's a it's afundamental misunderstanding of
(32:20):
the way the immune system works.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
So that I mean, the immunological components of the
entire vaccine schedule, say allthe vaccines combined, right?
If you think about all of them,contain about 200 antigens
total.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Which, you know, sounds like a lot you're a mum,
you're a mum or you're a dad andyou want to protect your baby's
little immune system.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Poor little baby.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Until you realise that a single natural occur
naturally occurring infectioncan expose a child to thousands
of antigens.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
I can remember when we when we were young parents, I
can remember having the samethoughts, can you, that it was
all a bit much.
It's all a bit I distinctlyremember.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Yes.
Um and weren't and weren't wequalified to make the decision
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
And I also remember when I was in hospital and I'd
had Lily, um they came in togive me the vitamin K injection,
and I said, Oh, do I need that?
And and the obstetrician said,Don't be ridiculous, just have
it.
And I went, they're right.
Yeah.
So I mean it's I guess that's Idon't know, it's a fundamental
(33:31):
misunderstanding of how theimmune systems work, right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:34):
Yeah, the the vaccine schedule has been
designed by experts.
It's been tested, you know,they've they've refined it so
that we protect children whenthey are most vulnerable.
I mean, you know, uh uh m measmeasles doesn't wait until it's
convenient.
You know, whooping cough doesn'tcare that, you know.
Hooping.
Whooping?
Hooping.
Hooping cough doesn't care howit's pronounced.
(33:56):
Um terrible.
Yeah, well you know, the thethese things don't uh don't
care.
Um and so you know, why why whywould you be claiming expertise
in an area that is socomplicated and so out of your
control, um, leaving yourchildren vulnerable to to during
the exact period when thediseases are most dangerous?
(34:18):
Okay.
Infants can't get the MMRvaccine until they're 12 months
old.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
And so until then MMR, remember, is measles,
mumps, rebella.
Rebella, yeah.
So what we're relying on is herdimmunity, correct?
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
Yep, yep.
And and when parents skip ordelay vaccines, they're not just
risking their own children,they're putting babies too young
to be vaccinated at risk.
And we're seeing theconsequences right now in
America.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, hoopingcough, patussis, as we've
already said, it's very, verydangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
Um well, 2024 the US saw 32,000 cases of hooping
cough.
That's a 557% increase from theyear before.
That is nuts.
That is a nuts stat.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
And that's because parents are delaying vaccine
vaccines.
SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (35:09):
Because vaccination rates have dropped in
communities influenced byanti-vaccine rhetoric.
Uh, you know, the the diseasesare as dangerous as they ever
were.
Uh but what has changed in theseareas is the protection.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
And and you know, there's the the notion of
personal choice, right?
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
Yeah, I mean it's not really personal choice.
It it's not personal choice whenyour choice affects other
people's children.
And you know, this was seenvividly in the US when with uh
they had uh they had a measlesoutbreak at Disneyland.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
Oh right, 2015, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
One one unvaccinated person spread it to one hundred
and forty-seven people acrosseight states.
And the outbreak the outbreaktraced directly to pockets of
vaccine refusal.
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
And we're seeing it again now, 2024, measles
outbreaks in multiple states, inOregon, Washington,
Pennsylvania, Virginia.
In every case, the indexpatient, the first patient, was
unvaccinated.
And the spread occurred incommunities with lower than
average vaccination rates.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
Okay, just to I don't know, maybe they're just
poor families and they haven'tgot access to healthcare.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
Well, no, no, no.
This was concentrated actuallyin wealthy, educated
communities.
You know.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Where we're where parents canafford to hire a
vaccine-friendly pediatricianwho will help them create an
alternative schedule.
You know, places where you knowplaces where some private
schools had vaccination rateslower than South Sudan.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
Oh, South Sudan Sudan's a disastrous.
Let's not go there.
It's awful.
So, alright.
Um, look, I think we've made ourpoint, have we not?
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
Well, that you're right to be cross with Rachel
Ward this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
I'm really cranky about it.
Because there's the, you know,the Looney Tunes that are
wandering around um DY withtheir laminated pictures, right?
And, you know, their theirinfluence is probably not that
great.
But someone like Rachel Ward,who takes a considered sounding
(37:23):
pause when asked a question bysomeone who has the credibility
of Peter Fitzsimon, and thenyou've got a really big problem.
And our voices, the voices ofreason, and our voices that we
spend so much time trying todebunk this disinformation.
And you just need Rachel Ward upthere on her special cow farm
(37:47):
blathering on about autism, andwe're back to where we started.
It's so frustrating.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Yep.
And and and I think what'swhat's um what's what's galling
is that they kind of presentthemselves as a bit kind of
heroic.
You know, I'm I'm heroic becauseI'm I'm prepared to, you know,
take on Big Pharma and and bebrave, but the fact is they're
not being brave.
They're they're they're wealthyenough to insulate themselves
(38:12):
from the consequences of theirbeliefs.
That's right.
You know, RFK Jr.'s own childrenwere vaccinated by his ex-wife's
admission.
He benefited from the protectionvaccines gave to his family
while building a career, tellingother parents not to vaccinate,
you know, the children in Samoa,babies dying of whooping cough
(38:32):
in the United States.
Whooping cough.
Yeah.
You know, families in themeasles outbreaks.
You know, these are the peoplewho actually bear the costs,
while the RFKs and the AndrewWakefields and, you know, and
perhaps the Rachel Wards benefitfrom their um, you know, their
brave and counterculture stance.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Appeal to nature.
Nature will take care of you,except it won't.
Um, well, I'm very um yeah,look, I think, you know, all I
can say is that if any of ourlisteners have, you know, tiny
children and they're thinkingabout spacing out vaccines or
skipping something, you're notbeing cautious.
(39:15):
You're gambling with yourchild's health based on the
advice of clueless celebritieswho have no medical training and
they are following a scriptwritten by a fraud.
The science is 100% unambiguous.
The schedule is safe, thesediseases are deadly dangerous,
(39:39):
and they are roaring back.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Yeah, measles is one of the most contagious viruses
known to humanity.
If one person with measles walksinto a room with unvaccinated
people, 90% of them will getsick.
It can cause brain damage, itcan cause death.
We had it eliminated in theUnited States, uh, in Australia,
eliminated, and now it's backbecause of vaccine hesitancy.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Don't.
Don't Google, don't listen toany of the influences, don't
listen to anybody on Instagram,don't listen to Rachel Ward with
her interesting sounding pause.
Don't listen to Jay to RFK Jr.
Talk to your family'spediatrician because they are
(40:29):
steeped in knowledge and theyhave actually trained in
medicine and some immunology.
SPEAKER_02 (40:33):
Yeah, the pediatrician just wants what you
want, a healthy child.
They're not part of aconspiracy, they're trying to
protect your family fromdiseases that kill.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
Yeah, and you know, I think we get into this thing
about you know, mothers, mothersare just really instinctive, and
mothers always know what's bestfor their children.
No, they don't.
You're a mother, not a doctor.
If you want advice on yourchild's health, go to someone
who's medically trained, andyes, unless you yourself are
(41:06):
medically trained, in which caseyou may give yourself advice.
SPEAKER_02 (41:10):
So you're difficult to argue when you're in this
particular mood.
What about when someone justsays I'm asking questions?
You know, like I'm just a conconcerned parent.
You know, why can't we have aconversation about this?
You know, why why why can't wehave a conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (41:24):
Oh, I don't know.
Why can't you what do you mean?
Like what what are they whatwhat?
It's a rhetorical tactic, isn'tit?
Why can't we have aconversation?
It's it's rhetorical tact, it'sa rhetorical tactic.
You know, you you can packageany sort of wacky um conspiracy
theory as an innocent inquiry toavoid accountability.
Like well, well, uh, you know,I'm not saying vaccines cause
(41:49):
autism.
I'm just asking, you know, whyhas autism increased as we've
added more vaccines?
Sort of sounds fair, right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's causation andcorrelation, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
It's also not true.
Vaccine autism has notincreased.
It's not true.
It's just it's just thatsuddenly it used to be, you
know, strange Uncle Cyril thatwas, you know, spent 16 hours a
day in his lab, and we can nowgo, well, strange Uncle Cyril
was actually a genius and he wason the autistic spectrum.
We just can identify it betternow.
SPEAKER_02 (42:24):
Yeah.
So so so so the problem is whenpeople frame themselves as a
vaccine safety accident uh uh avaccine safety advocate, like
the vaccination station, isn'tit?
And not an anti-vaxxer.
SPEAKER_00 (42:39):
That's that's that's the vaccination station is
provax.
SPEAKER_02 (42:42):
Yeah, I oh the vaccination station is provax.
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
What what what is it the vaccination network that I
know it's the uh it's thevaccination network.
Okay, yeah, okay.
So the vaccination network framethemselves as vaccine safety
advocates.
SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Vestigans just asking questions.
SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
Yeah.
Um I just want them to be asafer, but then they oppose
every vaccine, they spreadinformation about vaccine
ingredients, and they promotethis completely debunked autism
link.
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
And also they always I'm not going to mention the
woman that runs that networkbecause she's litigious, but
they're all constantly talkingabout how well they are and how
well their children are, theseanti-vaxxers, and as far as I
can see, they're always sick.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
How do you know they're sick?
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
Because you can hear it when they talk.
They've got they sound like thatbecause they probably got COVID
while saying it's from the Kebtrails.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Yeah, okay.
So their goal isn't about thetruth, it's about avoiding the
truth while appearing to bereasonable.
Um and like all of them, theythey're basically promoting
dangerous disprovement disproventreatments.
Um and um and look, you know, ifyou were to confront confront
Rachel Ward, you know, are youan anti-vaxxer?
(43:53):
Long pause, she would saysomething like long, interesting
pause, not anti-vaxx.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
I just think parents should have more information.
SPEAKER_02 (43:59):
But the information she's spreading is
misinformation.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
That's right.
So I think we've had we I thinkwe've really hammered this point
home for you today.
Do you agree, David?
I think we have.
Anything else you want to saybefore we wrap it up?
I'm still pretty cranky.
SPEAKER_02 (44:16):
Well well, I I mean I think I think the thing that
we can learn from this one thatgoes beyond the the specifics of
just this particular topic,vaccinations and um and what
they do.
Um it's a it's a it's a it's agreat reminder of how cautious
we have to be when it comes tocelebrity um.
Endorsements.
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (44:37):
And and and they come on both sides of politics.
SPEAKER_00 (44:40):
I mean, also when they're attractive, it makes it
even harder for us to actuallyhold our ground.
We're very attracted tocharismatic people.
Yeah.
And actually we can suspend our.
SPEAKER_02 (44:51):
Do you find RFK Jr.
attractive?
SPEAKER_00 (44:53):
No, I think he's disgusting.
Really?
Yeah, do you?
SPEAKER_02 (44:55):
Yeah, but he's sort of you know rugged and he's not
rugged, he's the ex-heronaddict.
Watching his weight, you know,he's not too not too fat.
He's not fat.
Yeah.
So, you know, maybe maybe heknows what he's talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Go on.
Can we finish now?
Yeah, sure then.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
All right, we've demolished the claims, we've
shown the fraud, we've exposedRFK Junior's grift.
We've counted the bodies.
83 tiny, innocent children inSamoa and infants dying of the
completely preventable hoopingcough in America, measles
(45:34):
outbreak spreading again.
So let's end on somethingactionable.
David, what do we do when itcomes to vaccines?
SPEAKER_02 (45:40):
Well, first trust expertise.
Your child's pediatrician spentyears in medical school, years
in residency, and dedicatestheir career to child's health.
They know more than than Googleand ChatGPT, they know more than
the celebrities.
They know more than Robert F.
Kennedy Jr.
And if you have concerns, startthere.
(46:03):
Start with your pediatrician.
Second, understand thatskepticism is healthy, but it
needs to be informed skepticism.
Real critical thinking meansexamining the quality of the
evidence, not just collectingopinions that confirm what you
already believe.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
So, I mean, the whole thing about evaluate,
people are constantly saying tome, you can't believe anything
that's not true.
Um, the way you evaluateevidence is look at the source.
You know, is it a peer-reviewedstudy published in a reputable
journal who funded the research?
Is there a conflict of interest?
Um, and has the study beenreplicated by other independent
researchers?
(46:37):
Um, the the evidence forvaccines is overwhelming.
So no matter how manyanti-vaxxers you listen to that
tell you that the CDC and theand the WHO are corrupt, it's
rubbish.
Um, they all, these majormedical organizations all agree
vaccines are safe and effective.
Um, so yeah, just you know, spotthe grift.
(46:59):
There's grift out there.
Somebody is making money fromselling supplements instead of
you using a perfectly safevaccine.
SPEAKER_02 (47:10):
But you know, what happens with if one of your
family members is actuallyfalling for it?
What would you do?
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
I don't know, I'm I'd be too cranky at the moment.
Yeah.
You what would you do?
Be quick, hurry up.
SPEAKER_02 (47:24):
Okay.
Um look, facts, as we've said,don't necessarily work, but you
can try a few approaches.
You know, you could start withyour shared values.
I know you love your kids, youwant to protect them, so do I.
So let's look at the actual riskdata together.
Um you can ask about theirsources, you know, where did you
where did you see it?
Can we look at it together?
SPEAKER_00 (47:42):
Yeah, making them wrong doesn't work, right?
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Making them wrong doesn't work.
Yeah.
Um and and look, if they won'tlisten, then protect your own
family.
You know, just make sure yourown kids are vaccinated on
schedule, advocate for schoolvaccine requirements, support
evidence-based health policy.
And if you have a child who'stoo young to be vaccinated, it
limits their exposure tounvaccinated children.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
So there we have it.
Uh listeners, um, thank you verymuch for listening to us today.
I hope, I really hope that thismessage is being disseminated to
all the countries that listen tothis podcast.
I mean, this is just a, youknow, some countries, it's just
two or three people that listento me.
(48:24):
But please, you know, take thetime to spread the news that
vaccines are safe and not tolisten to influencers, because
it really is.
We are at the absolute coal faceof trying to turn this
disastrous disinformationaround.
So thank you so much for tuningin.
Thank you, David.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
Yes, I'm off to get a shingled shot.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Are you?
Yeah, you should.
I had one, and apparently it'sprotective against dementia.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
It's got an added benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
Vaccine bonus.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
Vaccine bonus.
So thank you so much for tuningin, listeners.
And as always, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hat on, and see youlater.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(49:16):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(49:39):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(49:59):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(50:20):
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances to faux fur
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own share of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband.
I don't make him, but I did gothrough some shocks to find him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from theNorthern Beaches in Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia.
It is a funny old grey springday.
(01:11):
This morning I picked ourdaughter up from the airport,
and she had just got back fromSouth Korea.
And she remarked the weather wasabout the same.
She liked Korea.
Did I tell you that, David?
She quite liked South Korea.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
She enjoyed it.
It was really cool.
Anyway, that's not what we'retalking about today.
So two things have happened tome over the last 24 hours, which
were relevant.
And the first one was that Icame across yesterday, I was
(01:52):
having a lovely time down in DYat the beach.
It was hot yesterday, it waslike 30 degrees, it was
gorgeous.
And um, I was having a nicecoffee with my friend Judy, and
I chanced upon the Forest of theFallen, which is an installation
(02:13):
that is put up by the localanti-vaxxers.
And what they do, I've spokenabout this before on the
podcast.
It's deeply infuriating.
But anyway, they laminatepictures of people that have
purported to have died fromvaccine injuries.
But upon investigation by peoplelike the Snakey Gherkin, they
(02:35):
have discovered that they hadnot died from vaccine injury.
In fact, sometimes they'd hadthe vaccine in March and they'd
died in December in a caraccident, which is not really
causative, is it?
And other people were stillalive.
So this big sort of lie wherewhat they do is they stick these
laminated pictures in the groundon sticks, and then they
(02:57):
encourage people to come overand ask them.
And people go, What happened?
And they go, Well, this is whathappens if you take the highly
dangerous vaccine.
So um I wandered over and tookpictures so I could give it to
the Snake Gherkin, who's my ummy chief debunker.
And I said to them, Youshouldn't be doing this.
(03:17):
This is spreading dangerouslies.
And they got very upset with meand started screaming at me that
I was a homicidal maniac and amurderer.
Um, anyway, I left them alone.
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
What what you you're you were expecting them to be
grateful for your your yourperformance feedback?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah, I thought maybe they might like to hear
from me.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
They might they might take up their little
laminated photographs on sticksand and and put them away
because because you have emergedfrom the the DY crowd and told
them that they shouldn't bedoing it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Okay.
And it didn't happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Amazing, isn't it?
Yeah.
Anyway, that happened.
SPEAKER_02 (03:54):
If they knew you like I knew you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
That oh, that's my phone.
That could be one of them now,messaging me going, Annie.
SPEAKER_02 (04:00):
We've changed our mind.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
You're you're so right.
God, if only we'd spoken to youbefore we laminated the pictures
of the non-dead people.
Anyway, so that was yesterday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Some of the some of them, some of them, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
Are dead.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Are dead, aren't they?
I mean, so some of them, youknow.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
But it's it's it's they're spuriously um some of
them are dead, but that it hasspuriously been definitely
related to vaccine injury, butthere's no evidence for that.
SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
So so so so they're actually misrepresenting the
entire reality, even thoughthere are there are kernels of
truth, snapshots of truththrough all the.
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
No, there's not snapshots of truth.
There's just some dead peopleand also some alive people.
Many.
What?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Well, you you know, if they're that if they're dead,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yeah, but there's the the fa the families have
complained.
They've gone, do not use myhusband.
My husband's picture in yourridiculous Forest of the Fallen.
He died of a stroke.
It had nothing to do with thebody.
SPEAKER_02 (04:58):
Oh, right, that's it.
Okay, so that's a that's athat's a grubby act.
That's that that's definitelydistorting the truth.
SPEAKER_00 (05:04):
It's a grubby act.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Then I get over that.
Right.
I managed to get over that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
You did you didn't read today's Sydney Morning
Herald, did you?
Yes, I did.
The Fitzfilza Oh I know it's Iknow it's got you cross.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Yes, I did in fact read the Sydney Morning Herald.
Now, for some of the youngerpeople who may be listening to
this highly informative,interesting podcast Like Harry.
Like Harrison.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Yeah, Harrison.
He has to listen.
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
David, I haven't in I haven't invited you to to
actually contribute yet.
Okay, sorry.
Please be quiet.
Thank you.
Um there was I'm about to inviteyou though.
SPEAKER_02 (05:46):
Oh.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:48):
There was a mini-series um back in 1982, 83.
SPEAKER_02 (05:52):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Called The Thornbirds.
The Thornbirds.
I love the Thornbirds.
Oh, well, I mean, uh TheThornbirds was um was that you
know, that that that that greatsprawling Australian novel.
It was like dynasty set inAustralia.
And um, you know, yeah, whowrote it?
Colin McCulloch.
Oh, well done.
Was w was the Thornbirds.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
I've had less sleep than you, that's why I'm not
really on the board.
SPEAKER_02 (06:14):
And I r I remember the moment the most beautiful
woman in the world appeared atthe top of the staircase.
Um not Mrs.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Danvers.
SPEAKER_02 (06:21):
No, no.
No, no, that was another bookaltogether.
No, I I I I I I can remember themoment, you know?
Uh and and and and she literallywas the most beautiful woman
that I had ever seen ontelevision.
Yeah.
And her name, the actor, wasRachel Ward.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
What was the character?
The character?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
Well, I mean, she was the she was the femme fatale
in the Thornbirds.
She was the um, you know, shewas the one that was the the
sexy love interest.
Yeah, the Brian Brown characterBrian Brown's character fell in
love with her.
SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
What?
What about Richard Chamberlain?
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
Richard Chamberlain.
SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Richard Chamberlain was the lead in it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Was he a priest?
I've really I'm really foggy onthe details.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Who fell in love with her?
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
Wasn't it was it wasn't it Brian Brown?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
But what about Richard Chamberlain?
Wasn't he the wasn't that thebig love interest?
SPEAKER_02 (07:08):
I look i I was I was very young at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:11):
Oh shut up.
Oh my gosh.
So she Yeah.
We we will get together the sdetails between our three.
Because it's so important.
Well, it is sort of anyway.
So she there was Rachel Ward,and she was called at the time
one of the most um beautifulwomen in the world.
(07:35):
I think one of the top ten.
She was a model, she wasastonishingly beautiful.
Let's have a look.
The Thornbird.
See, there's the picture wherenow David's pulled it up.
So the whole thing was it wasthis incredibly sort of
fabulous, sexy story about theforbidden love between uh Maggie
Cleary and the family's priest,father Ralph De Bricasart,
(07:55):
played by Richard Chamberlain.
So it's this very, very sexystory, and she was
extraordinarily sexy andgorgeous, and that's where she
met her current husband.
Anyway, so this morning I openup the Sydney Morning Herald,
and there's an interview betweenPeter Fitzsimon, who I really do
admire, and Rachel Ward.
(08:16):
And she's um doing somethingreally positive with cows and
poo, cow poo.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
She's a farmer now.
SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
She's she's a farmer.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
And she's doing this, you know, I think probably
very helpful for itsenvironment, this way of raising
and breeding cattle that is goodfor the cattle and good for the
environment.
All fine so far.
SPEAKER_02 (08:41):
That's tremendous.
SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
She's pretty.
She's been married for 40 yearsto Brian Brown.
Brian Brown's an Australianactor, we talked like that.
Brian Brown.
Brian Brown.
Brian Brown.
Um, and she's now doingsomething that's ecologically
positive.
SPEAKER_02 (08:56):
Admirable.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
All good.
SPEAKER_02 (08:58):
But why are you mad?
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
I am mad because she has come out today in print and
has stated some untruths aboutvaccine and the link between
vaccines and autism.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
And I'm furious about it.
Well, didn't it just sort ofarise in the in the interview
with Fitz?
And she just kind of said, yeah,she had her doubts and, you
know, thinks that it should beorganized differently because
the way that it's being done is.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Why are you using that sort of ameliorating tone?
Well, I'm really annoyingbecause she thinks she's still
pretty.
SPEAKER_02 (09:37):
I'm just I'm I'm I'm trying to be even-handed and
represent what was actually whatwhat was actually articulated.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
All right.
Well, I'll tell you what wasarticulated.
Hang on a sec.
He asked her if she wasanti-vax, and she apparently
took a really long consideredpause and then said that she
thought that the vaccineschedule was um, you know, there
was sort of too many vaccinesbeing shoveled into babies in
(10:06):
too short a period of time.
SPEAKER_02 (10:08):
And that What's the danger of that?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
What's her concern that the danger of it overwhelms
her immune system or somethingthat is completely d do you know
something about that?
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
No, I've uh um no, I do know something about that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:20):
Well I is that rubbish?
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
It's rubbish as it's I I I do know that babies have
incredible immune systems whenthey're born.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Um and does it hurt them having a whole lot of
vaccines?
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
Well, it I think that if you have a properly sort
of you know administered um uhschedule of vaccines as as as
suggested by the um the medicalprofession.
Yes.
Then it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Of course it's a good thing.
It stimulates the immune system.
Yeah it's ridiculous.
Anyway, she said somethingbecause she's had this
background where she mixed withthe rich and famous, right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Right.
So she had met um RFK's son andactually dated him for a bit.
Oh, did she?
Apparently.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Rachel Ward?
Yeah.
What before Brian Brown?
SPEAKER_00 (11:08):
Brian Brown.
SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Yeah.
But I mean, she's been withBrian for so many years.
This was this wasn't this wasn'ta dalliance, was it?
This wasn't a sort of apost-Brian dalliance.
SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
No, no, no, no, no, it's long, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Oh, this was before that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, so then she praised, shesaid to Fitz how great she
thought RFK was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Right.
And then She must have herreasons.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Um And then she said that she sort of inferred that
vaccines caused autism and heand she said, Are you telling
me, Fitz, that you don't agreewith this?
And Fitz said quite sensibly, Icertainly do not.
(11:52):
Don't tell me you do, and sheuttered these words.
She said this.
Well, where else is it comingfrom?
What's wrong with really lookingat where it's come from?
Holy moly, how many times do wehave to debunk the myth that
(12:15):
vaccines cause autism?
It is in the gene.
It's in the gene, it's gotabsolutely nothing to do with
the vaccines.
And then he says, please tell mean anti-vaxxer.
And she said, after a lot, Ilike the way they write long
silence in print, as if theperson is giving a really
(12:37):
considered answer and just beingreally sensible and and sort of
um, you know, considered.
And she said, I was vaccinated,but I certainly question the
whole way it was done.
Do you, Rachel?
I question the necessary, thelockdowns, and all of that.
Do you?
Okay.
And I'm definitely in tune withthe people who question it all
(13:00):
and still protest against it.
Which says to me, she was intune with those people yesterday
that called me a homicidalmaniac and a murderer because I
had questioned their fake forestof the fallen laminated
pictures.
That is who she's supporting.
And those are the people thatare spreading the
(13:22):
misinformation, thedisinformation.
But someone like Rachel Ward,who's famous and really pretty
and married to somebody reallyfamous, her word really, really
counts.
SPEAKER_02 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's a um it's a kind oflet them eat cake moment, isn't
it?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:42):
You know, um Yeah.
Yeah, I like that.
People are unhappy about this,so uh, you know, if they're h if
they can't get bread, let themeat cake.
Yeah.
Um it's it's the um it's whensomeone's got a a a degree of
celebrity they are probablyreasonably wealthy and
(14:03):
reasonably set up.
And I think that we know thatone of the unfortunate things
that happen when people have ittoo easily, they start to think
that they're entitled for thatto continue.
I'm wealthy, I've got lots ofmoney, there's lots of people
trying to please me.
So really my life should turnout the way I want it to.
(14:25):
But the funny thing about life,the thun funny thing about
nature is that sometimes we wedon't lose lose the gen uh we
don't win the genetic lottery,and there are forces that are
beyond our control.
And unfortunately, if if youknow you may be born with uh uh
y your your child may be bornwith a susceptibility for any
(14:46):
kind of disease.
Um and uh and I think that thatthe the wealthy celebrity finds
it difficult to understand thatsometimes life is just pretty
shitty, and they, like the restof the people on the planet, are
subject to that reality, andthey don't like it.
(15:06):
So they have to find somethingcausative that they can blame.
And so they go in search for areason why my life, why my
child, is not perfect, and theyfind one.
And I I tend to think thatthat's that's kind of at the
heart of it.
I mean, you've got your RachelWard, we've also got your
gentleman.
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
They don't have an autistic child, Rachel Ward and
Brian Brown.
SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
Yeah, but um but they don't like to live in a
universe where bad things canhappen to to famous celebrities,
and so she feels for the peopleum who feel aggrieved by the
fact that their agency has beeneroded by a government that
wants to keep everybody alive byvaccinating them.
So she feels for them.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
I didn't understand that last point.
Can you say that again?
SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
Yeah, sure.
Um okay.
Uh well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
What I'm saying is I think she's caught up in the
appeal to nature bullshit.
That's what I think is going on.
I think she's doing somefabulous or or organic farming
and patting cows and living onthe land, and she's removed
herself from the the vagariesand the you know the tinsel
environment of Hollywood.
She's removed herself, so she'snow close to nature, she's with
(16:17):
the cows, and she's on and off atractor.
SPEAKER_02 (16:19):
Which is wonderfully self-deterministic.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
It's self-deterministic and it's
close to nature.
Yeah, yeah.
And what happens when we startthinking that nature is
providing us with everything?
It's an appeal to nature bias.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
Yeah, exactly.
So so don't interfere withnature by putting pesticides
into the environment.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
Or putting vaccines into the bloodstreams of those
little babies.
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
Tiny babies.
Forgetting that.
Forgetting that, um, you know,people used to have, you know,
six, seven children because fivedied of things that we have
eradicated.
This debate is not a both sideshave a point, right?
(17:02):
This is people like Rachel Ward,celebrities with platforms
spreading lies that haveliterally killed children and
are bringing back diseases thatwe've eliminated.
What's going on with measles?
Oh my voice is so high.
What's going on with measles andhooping cough at the moment?
Do you know?
SPEAKER_02 (17:19):
Well, I do know that we've got measles and hooping
cough happening in places whereit shouldn't be happening.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yeah, exactly.
And why is that?
If it was eradicated, what onearth has brought it back?
That's the other thing, is thatis that the the pro-nature crowd
think that measles are, youknow, perfectly benign.
It's just another little virus.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
Oh, yeah, nice if you haven't got got the measles
to say that it's benign.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
Exactly.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
I it's it's it's really quite extraordinary that
um that measles around theplanet is having a um a
resurgence?
Look, uh a comeback.
Um you know, like a like a likea like a 1980s rock band.
Yeah, they're coming back.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Um I've got a stat for you.
As of November the twelfth, twothousand and twenty-five, a
total of one thousand sevenhundred and twenty-three
confirmed measle cases werereported in the US.
Now let's remember it waspreviously eradicated, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
Yeah.
The measles vaccine compped alot of bad press.
Um I I know I know that youdon't want to go tremendously
into the bad work of AndrewWakefield.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
I don't mind.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Okay.
So um uh look, Andrew Wakefield,you know, celebrity anti-vaxxer.
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Um, you know Do you reckon he sort of started the
whole thing?
SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
Wake Wakefield?
So do you want me to fill in thethe the blanks about Andrew
Wakefield for perhaps those whodon't know?
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
So he's still quoted, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:46):
Oh, definitely.
And and and and and certainlythe damage that Wakefield has
done um continues.
So, you know, he he was one thatthat that that really kicked off
the vaccine causes autism umstory.
Um the the thing about AndrewWakefield is he has been you
know completely debunked and andum it's clear that his
(19:09):
motivation for taking thisposition was actually
commercially driven.
Um he was being paid, he wasbeing personally paid by lawyers
who were preparing a lawsuitagainst the manufacturers of the
vaccine.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
I did not know that.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Yeah, so I mean he was paid like about half a
million pounds in in today'smoney.
He was paid by the lawyers whowere preparing the the lawsuit
against the MMR.
Yeah, that's right.
This vast amount of money.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
This is Mum's Rebella, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:40):
He he he disguised absolutely nothing, didn't tell
anybody.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
In unethical.
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
That's right.
And he was being paid by thisfirm two years before he
published uh a paper in theLancet uh um uh attempting to um
to to vilify MMR vaccines.
And he wasn't just working forthe lawyers, he had his own
business plan.
He'd filed a patent for a rivalmeasles vaccine before he
(20:07):
launched his campaign againstthe MMR.
He was trying to destroyconfidence in the existing
vaccine so he could sell hisown.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Can you say that again?
Because that is really that isreally major.
So he was actually developing avaccine.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
A rival vaccine.
He had he had filed a patent fora rival vaccine.
Um and so, yes, he would he hehe he wanted the MMR vaccine,
completely vilified, destroy theconfidence in that so that he
could sell his own.
And it gets darker.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
It's it's worked as well.
It is actually he's done it,he's done it.
One man, go keep going.
SPEAKER_02 (20:43):
So it gets even worse than that.
Gets darker than that.
Wakefield was involved in aventure to market diagnostic
test kits for autisticenterocolitis.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Which is a made-up thing, right?
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
Well, him, yeah, that's right.
That was that was the conditionthat he invented.
SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
So you know he invents a condition.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
And then here's a diagnostic test that'll prove
whether you got it or not.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
And the reports tell us that he predicted he would
make more than 43 million a yearfrom these kits.
And one of the companies that heplanned to launch was was called
Carmel Healthcare.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
Oh, that's nice.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Limited.
And that was his wife at thetime.
He was married to Carmel.
SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
So he actually named his fraudulent company, right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
After his wife.
After his wife.
And and it and it's really clearthat it was just a con.
But you see, this kind of griftdidn't end with him.
Yeah.
The modern anti-vaccine movementhas professionalized it.
So now we've got.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
So this is where we have RFK Jr., that's right, who
Rachel Ward has just lionizedfor being such a great guy
because he's come out going, youknow, st stop l stop hurting our
children.
Stop hurting our children withall these vaccines.
SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
Well, I mean, yeah, RFK chairs an organization
called the Children's HealthDefence.
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
Which is ironic, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Well, it sounds like a benign children's charity, but
it's not.
It's one of the most prolificsources of vaccine
misinformation in the world.
SPEAKER_00 (22:08):
And so, okay, what do they do?
Well, they press is this withJoe McColler?
I think this is with JoeMcColler.
SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
He he's he's he he he's he's one of the
contributors for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They produce these very slickmedical, you know,
professional-looking contentthat spreads information that's
already been debunked, but itspreads fear.
They file lawsuits againstvaccine mandates, they lobby
politicians, and importantly,they fundraise, they raise
(22:36):
money.
The Children's Health Defense isa multi-million dollar
organization.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Wow.
And so he's banging on, right?
RFK bangs on about big pharmaprofits, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (22:53):
But at simultaneously at the same time,
he's running a hugely profitableanti-vaccine business, right?
Spreading vaccine information.
SPEAKER_02 (23:06):
That's right.
Um, and children's healthdefense is a multi-million
dollar organization.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
So, how much money are we talking if it's a
multi-million dollarorganization?
Okay, look, um Is it just todefend poor little children?
Possibly not.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Well, possibly not.
Um in 2021, they had reportedrevenues of over seven million
dollars, and and RFK himselftook a salary of over$350,000
from the organization.
So, you know, pedal anti-vaxinformation and get a big fat
salary while you're doing it.
And it would have been only oneof his many sources of in of uh
(23:39):
of revenue.
So while he's banging on aboutbig pharma profits, he's running
a profitable anti-vaccine bbusiness.
He's written books, he's he hehe he's delivered countless paid
speeches, and he's he'sbasically built a career on
fear.
SPEAKER_00 (23:55):
And the thing is that his own family, right, have
repudiated him.
He's an embarrassment.
SPEAKER_02 (24:01):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean that they're not they're
not stupid.
They can see what he's doing,and it's not just about the
money that he's making, eventhough that's obscene, that he's
making money from this.
It's actually the real-worldharm that he does.
SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
All right, so let's let's actually unpack the harm
because it's it's reallyimportant for anybody that's
listening to this podcast tounderstand that what David and I
are talking about here is nottheoretical.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
These it's it's not just us, you know, having a go
at these elites who are makinglots of money.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
No, it's about the fact that vulnerable people,
vulnerable children, vulnerableadults who are at the behest of
this false information aredying.
It really matters.
SPEAKER_02 (24:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
I mean, look, after afterWakefield's, you know, um uh 15
minutes of fame or his time inthe in in the sun when he took
the you know took thesledgehammer to to to vaccine
policy, MMR vaccination ratesfell in the in the UK from
ninety-two per cent to as low asseventy-three percent.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Nearly twenty percent.
SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Yeah, and look, some parts of London it it dropped to
fifty per cent, which is belowthe threshold for herd immunity.
SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
Which means that even the vaccinated children are
at risk, right?
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
And and the consequence of that, measles
came roaring back.
By by by 2008, um, the UK hadits first measles death in 14
years.
And and in the US, which hadbeen you know measles-free,
yeah, they're getting they weregetting outbreaks again.
SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
But now that RFK is the health secretary.
SPEAKER_00 (25:42):
Can you believe that happened?
Can you believe that you've gota grifter of that magnitude as
the health secretary of theUnited States?
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
He's making money, he's making policy that can can
help him continue to make money.
Last year, the United States sawa significant measles
resurgence.
You know, it it it it was itused to be wiped out, but now
there were multiple outbreaks,primarily in communities with
low vaccination rates, and we'reseeing the same pattern with
hooping cough.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So, what's happened with hooping cough?
It was a disaster for smallbabies, right?
Yeah, absolute disaster.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
So we used to vaccine.
Um, in 2024, hooping cough casesin the US surged to levels not
seen in over a decade.
Over 32,000 cases were reported,more than six times the number
from the previous year.
And of course, it's infants whoare particularly vulnerable.
And as we know, hooping coughcan be fatal for babies that are
(26:42):
too young to be vaccinated.
So this is where the herdimmunity thing is a is a is a
major thing.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
So if you get it, you you it's very, very
dangerous.
And the the thing the thingthat's got me so riled up today
is all these diseases werecompletely eradicated.
SPEAKER_02 (27:05):
Look, they were eradicated, and it wasn't just
because the the vaccinesexisted, they did have to be
administered properly.
And um, I mean, if the story ofwhat happened in in Samoa is
just is manifestly tragic.
Um so two babies in Samoa diedfrom an MMR vaccine.
(27:26):
But this w happened because itwas incorrectly prepared by the
nurses.
They mixed it up with expiredanesthetic instead of water, and
it was a tragic preventableerror.
But of course, the government,you know, worried they suspended
the vaccination program for 10months while they investigated
what's not unreasonable.
It is not unreasonable, but theanti-vaccine activists saw an
(27:47):
opportunity, and what they didwas they flooded Samoan social
media with misinformation,exploiting the tragedy to spread
fear, um, and that's where itconnects to our current
celebrities.
One of the influencers who wasactive in Samoa's anti-vaccine
community promoted content fromthe Children's Health Defense
(28:07):
RFK's organization.
The vaccine rate collapsed from72% to just above 30%.
And then when a travellerbrought measles to the island,
in a population of only about200,000 people, there were over
5,700 cases and 83 people died.
Most of them influence youngchildren.
(28:28):
Um, the Samoan governmentrealized the mistake, they
declared a state of emergency,they went from door to door
mandating vaccination, but atthat stage the damage was done.
SPEAKER_00 (28:38):
So let's just really, you know, underline
that.
(29:04):
Now they're you know, in chargeof the health ministry in
America, and this lie is nowspread by celebrities like
Rachel Ward, who think thatbecause they have a um a
platform, they have a right tocomment on matters that should
(29:29):
belong in the scientificcommunity.
Wow.
You know, when Rachel Ward orany other celebrity talks about
doing their own research orfollowing the money, this is
where it leads.
Dead children.
Honestly, this is where itleads.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
I mean, one of the um one of the one of the
arguments that you do hear fromsmart, well meaning parents is
they'll say, Look, I'm not antivaxx, but I just think that the
schedule's too aggressive.
You know, too many vaccines toosoon.
You know, can can we space themout?
You know?
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Which of course, you know, if you think about that
and you you know, you're sittingaround and you're you're having
a bit of a I don't know, aSaturday night margarita with uh
the other parents of your fivemonths, you know, perhaps you're
in a a mother's group, right?
Having a bit of a drink.
SPEAKER_02 (30:19):
Having having having margaritas with the mother's
group.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Yeah, sure.
Well I did.
Okay, yeah.
I was bottle feeding at thatpoint.
Um, you know, and you're havinga little chat about it and
everyone's sort of in this tacitagreement that it's all a bit
much, right?
Your baby's only twelve twelveweeks old or sixteen weeks old.
Why don't we spread them out?
I mean it sounds reasonable,does it not?
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah, look, it it it it sounds reasonable to somebody
who's not an epidemiologist, youknow, who's not a doctor, who
doesn't understand the baby'simmune system and when they need
to be uh and when they need tobe vaccinated.
Yeah.
It sounds fair enough.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (30:54):
And but all it takes is that one decision to delay
something, and then what haveyou got?
You've got measles, or have yougot hooping cough?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Oh, so actually what you're saying is um in people's
efforts to protect theirchildren, to spread the vaccines
out so they don't overwhelm thechild.
We'll talk about the notion ofoverwhelming the child's immune
system in a minute.
I know I mentioned it before,but we can unpack that a bit
more.
They're actually endangeringtheir children because a sneaky
(31:23):
virus can get in, right?
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
Children's immune systems are actually
extraordinarily powerful fromthe moment of birth.
Babies are exposed to thousandsof bacteria, viruses, and other
antigens every single day, youknow, when they put their hands
in their mouths, when they puttheir toys in their mouths, when
they breathe, when they read.
They're they're encountering farmore immune challenges than any
(31:46):
individual vaccine presents.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
So you're saying a baby just going through the
course of their day, stickingtheir hands in their mouths, or,
I don't know, breathe they mightgo out on the street and they
could breathe in a virus orsomething.
SPEAKER_02 (32:00):
Oh, of course, you know, they're they're everywhere
all the time.
And the natural immune systemcan handle those things, and so
a vaccine, small dose of the ofthe thing that we're wanting to
protect ourselves again, itdoesn't overwhelm.
It cannot overwhelm.
It's uh it's a it's afundamental misunderstanding of
(32:20):
the way the immune system works.
SPEAKER_00 (32:22):
So that I mean, the immunological components of the
entire vaccine schedule, say allthe vaccines combined, right?
If you think about all of them,contain about 200 antigens
total.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Which, you know, sounds like a lot you're a mum,
you're a mum or you're a dad andyou want to protect your baby's
little immune system.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Poor little baby.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Until you realise that a single natural occur
naturally occurring infectioncan expose a child to thousands
of antigens.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
I can remember when we when we were young parents, I
can remember having the samethoughts, can you, that it was
all a bit much.
It's all a bit I distinctlyremember.
SPEAKER_02 (33:04):
Yes.
Um and weren't and weren't wequalified to make the decision
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
And I also remember when I was in hospital and I'd
had Lily, um they came in togive me the vitamin K injection,
and I said, Oh, do I need that?
And and the obstetrician said,Don't be ridiculous, just have
it.
And I went, they're right.
Yeah.
So I mean it's I guess that's Idon't know, it's a fundamental
(33:31):
misunderstanding of how theimmune systems work, right?
SPEAKER_02 (33:34):
Yeah, the the vaccine schedule has been
designed by experts.
It's been tested, you know,they've they've refined it so
that we protect children whenthey are most vulnerable.
I mean, you know, uh uh m measmeasles doesn't wait until it's
convenient.
You know, whooping cough doesn'tcare that, you know.
Hooping.
Whooping?
Hooping.
Hooping cough doesn't care howit's pronounced.
(33:56):
Um terrible.
Yeah, well you know, the thethese things don't uh don't
care.
Um and so you know, why why whywould you be claiming expertise
in an area that is socomplicated and so out of your
control, um, leaving yourchildren vulnerable to to during
the exact period when thediseases are most dangerous?
(34:18):
Okay.
Infants can't get the MMRvaccine until they're 12 months
old.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
And so until then MMR, remember, is measles,
mumps, rebella.
Rebella, yeah.
So what we're relying on is herdimmunity, correct?
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
Yep, yep.
And and when parents skip ordelay vaccines, they're not just
risking their own children,they're putting babies too young
to be vaccinated at risk.
And we're seeing theconsequences right now in
America.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, hoopingcough, patussis, as we've
already said, it's very, verydangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (34:50):
Um well, 2024 the US saw 32,000 cases of hooping
cough.
That's a 557% increase from theyear before.
That is nuts.
That is a nuts stat.
SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
And that's because parents are delaying vaccine
vaccines.
SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (35:09):
Because vaccination rates have dropped in
communities influenced byanti-vaccine rhetoric.
Uh, you know, the the diseasesare as dangerous as they ever
were.
Uh but what has changed in theseareas is the protection.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
And and you know, there's the the notion of
personal choice, right?
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
Yeah, I mean it's not really personal choice.
It it's not personal choice whenyour choice affects other
people's children.
And you know, this was seenvividly in the US when with uh
they had uh they had a measlesoutbreak at Disneyland.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
Oh right, 2015, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
One one unvaccinated person spread it to one hundred
and forty-seven people acrosseight states.
And the outbreak the outbreaktraced directly to pockets of
vaccine refusal.
SPEAKER_01 (35:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:57):
And we're seeing it again now, 2024, measles
outbreaks in multiple states, inOregon, Washington,
Pennsylvania, Virginia.
In every case, the indexpatient, the first patient, was
unvaccinated.
And the spread occurred incommunities with lower than
average vaccination rates.
SPEAKER_00 (36:17):
Okay, just to I don't know, maybe they're just
poor families and they haven'tgot access to healthcare.
SPEAKER_02 (36:22):
Well, no, no, no.
This was concentrated actuallyin wealthy, educated
communities.
You know.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Where we're where parents canafford to hire a
vaccine-friendly pediatricianwho will help them create an
alternative schedule.
You know, places where you knowplaces where some private
schools had vaccination rateslower than South Sudan.
SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
Oh, South Sudan Sudan's a disastrous.
Let's not go there.
It's awful.
So, alright.
Um, look, I think we've made ourpoint, have we not?
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
Well, that you're right to be cross with Rachel
Ward this morning.
SPEAKER_00 (37:01):
I'm really cranky about it.
Because there's the, you know,the Looney Tunes that are
wandering around um DY withtheir laminated pictures, right?
And, you know, their theirinfluence is probably not that
great.
But someone like Rachel Ward,who takes a considered sounding
(37:23):
pause when asked a question bysomeone who has the credibility
of Peter Fitzsimon, and thenyou've got a really big problem.
And our voices, the voices ofreason, and our voices that we
spend so much time trying todebunk this disinformation.
And you just need Rachel Ward upthere on her special cow farm
(37:47):
blathering on about autism, andwe're back to where we started.
It's so frustrating.
SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Yep.
And and and I think what'swhat's um what's what's galling
is that they kind of presentthemselves as a bit kind of
heroic.
You know, I'm I'm heroic becauseI'm I'm prepared to, you know,
take on Big Pharma and and bebrave, but the fact is they're
not being brave.
They're they're they're wealthyenough to insulate themselves
(38:12):
from the consequences of theirbeliefs.
That's right.
You know, RFK Jr.'s own childrenwere vaccinated by his ex-wife's
admission.
He benefited from the protectionvaccines gave to his family
while building a career, tellingother parents not to vaccinate,
you know, the children in Samoa,babies dying of whooping cough
(38:32):
in the United States.
Whooping cough.
Yeah.
You know, families in themeasles outbreaks.
You know, these are the peoplewho actually bear the costs,
while the RFKs and the AndrewWakefields and, you know, and
perhaps the Rachel Wards benefitfrom their um, you know, their
brave and counterculture stance.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Appeal to nature.
Nature will take care of you,except it won't.
Um, well, I'm very um yeah,look, I think, you know, all I
can say is that if any of ourlisteners have, you know, tiny
children and they're thinkingabout spacing out vaccines or
skipping something, you're notbeing cautious.
(39:15):
You're gambling with yourchild's health based on the
advice of clueless celebritieswho have no medical training and
they are following a scriptwritten by a fraud.
The science is 100% unambiguous.
The schedule is safe, thesediseases are deadly dangerous,
(39:39):
and they are roaring back.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Yeah, measles is one of the most contagious viruses
known to humanity.
If one person with measles walksinto a room with unvaccinated
people, 90% of them will getsick.
It can cause brain damage, itcan cause death.
We had it eliminated in theUnited States, uh, in Australia,
eliminated, and now it's backbecause of vaccine hesitancy.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
Don't.
Don't Google, don't listen toany of the influences, don't
listen to anybody on Instagram,don't listen to Rachel Ward with
her interesting sounding pause.
Don't listen to Jay to RFK Jr.
Talk to your family'spediatrician because they are
(40:29):
steeped in knowledge and theyhave actually trained in
medicine and some immunology.
SPEAKER_02 (40:33):
Yeah, the pediatrician just wants what you
want, a healthy child.
They're not part of aconspiracy, they're trying to
protect your family fromdiseases that kill.
SPEAKER_00 (40:44):
Yeah, and you know, I think we get into this thing
about you know, mothers, mothersare just really instinctive, and
mothers always know what's bestfor their children.
No, they don't.
You're a mother, not a doctor.
If you want advice on yourchild's health, go to someone
who's medically trained, andyes, unless you yourself are
(41:06):
medically trained, in which caseyou may give yourself advice.
SPEAKER_02 (41:10):
So you're difficult to argue when you're in this
particular mood.
What about when someone justsays I'm asking questions?
You know, like I'm just a conconcerned parent.
You know, why can't we have aconversation about this?
You know, why why why can't wehave a conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (41:24):
Oh, I don't know.
Why can't you what do you mean?
Like what what are they whatwhat?
It's a rhetorical tactic, isn'tit?
Why can't we have aconversation?
It's it's rhetorical tact, it'sa rhetorical tactic.
You know, you you can packageany sort of wacky um conspiracy
theory as an innocent inquiry toavoid accountability.
Like well, well, uh, you know,I'm not saying vaccines cause
(41:49):
autism.
I'm just asking, you know, whyhas autism increased as we've
added more vaccines?
Sort of sounds fair, right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's causation andcorrelation, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
It's also not true.
Vaccine autism has notincreased.
It's not true.
It's just it's just thatsuddenly it used to be, you
know, strange Uncle Cyril thatwas, you know, spent 16 hours a
day in his lab, and we can nowgo, well, strange Uncle Cyril
was actually a genius and he wason the autistic spectrum.
We just can identify it betternow.
SPEAKER_02 (42:24):
Yeah.
So so so so the problem is whenpeople frame themselves as a
vaccine safety accident uh uh avaccine safety advocate, like
the vaccination station, isn'tit?
And not an anti-vaxxer.
SPEAKER_00 (42:39):
That's that's that's the vaccination station is
provax.
SPEAKER_02 (42:42):
Yeah, I oh the vaccination station is provax.
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
100%.
SPEAKER_02 (42:46):
What what what is it the vaccination network that I
know it's the uh it's thevaccination network.
Okay, yeah, okay.
So the vaccination network framethemselves as vaccine safety
advocates.
SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Vestigans just asking questions.
SPEAKER_02 (42:56):
Yeah.
Um I just want them to be asafer, but then they oppose
every vaccine, they spreadinformation about vaccine
ingredients, and they promotethis completely debunked autism
link.
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
And also they always I'm not going to mention the
woman that runs that networkbecause she's litigious, but
they're all constantly talkingabout how well they are and how
well their children are, theseanti-vaxxers, and as far as I
can see, they're always sick.
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
How do you know they're sick?
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
Because you can hear it when they talk.
They've got they sound like thatbecause they probably got COVID
while saying it's from the Kebtrails.
SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Yeah, okay.
So their goal isn't about thetruth, it's about avoiding the
truth while appearing to bereasonable.
Um and like all of them, theythey're basically promoting
dangerous disprovement disproventreatments.
Um and um and look, you know, ifyou were to confront confront
Rachel Ward, you know, are youan anti-vaxxer?
(43:53):
Long pause, she would saysomething like long, interesting
pause, not anti-vaxx.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
I just think parents should have more information.
SPEAKER_02 (43:59):
But the information she's spreading is
misinformation.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
That's right.
So I think we've had we I thinkwe've really hammered this point
home for you today.
Do you agree, David?
I think we have.
Anything else you want to saybefore we wrap it up?
I'm still pretty cranky.
SPEAKER_02 (44:16):
Well well, I I mean I think I think the thing that
we can learn from this one thatgoes beyond the the specifics of
just this particular topic,vaccinations and um and what
they do.
Um it's a it's a it's a it's agreat reminder of how cautious
we have to be when it comes tocelebrity um.
Endorsements.
SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (44:37):
And and and they come on both sides of politics.
SPEAKER_00 (44:40):
I mean, also when they're attractive, it makes it
even harder for us to actuallyhold our ground.
We're very attracted tocharismatic people.
Yeah.
And actually we can suspend our.
SPEAKER_02 (44:51):
Do you find RFK Jr.
attractive?
SPEAKER_00 (44:53):
No, I think he's disgusting.
Really?
Yeah, do you?
SPEAKER_02 (44:55):
Yeah, but he's sort of you know rugged and he's not
rugged, he's the ex-heronaddict.
Watching his weight, you know,he's not too not too fat.
He's not fat.
Yeah.
So, you know, maybe maybe heknows what he's talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
Go on.
Can we finish now?
Yeah, sure then.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
All right, we've demolished the claims, we've
shown the fraud, we've exposedRFK Junior's grift.
We've counted the bodies.
83 tiny, innocent children inSamoa and infants dying of the
completely preventable hoopingcough in America, measles
(45:34):
outbreak spreading again.
So let's end on somethingactionable.
David, what do we do when itcomes to vaccines?
SPEAKER_02 (45:40):
Well, first trust expertise.
Your child's pediatrician spentyears in medical school, years
in residency, and dedicatestheir career to child's health.
They know more than than Googleand ChatGPT, they know more than
the celebrities.
They know more than Robert F.
Kennedy Jr.
And if you have concerns, startthere.
(46:03):
Start with your pediatrician.
Second, understand thatskepticism is healthy, but it
needs to be informed skepticism.
Real critical thinking meansexamining the quality of the
evidence, not just collectingopinions that confirm what you
already believe.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
So, I mean, the whole thing about evaluate,
people are constantly saying tome, you can't believe anything
that's not true.
Um, the way you evaluateevidence is look at the source.
You know, is it a peer-reviewedstudy published in a reputable
journal who funded the research?
Is there a conflict of interest?
Um, and has the study beenreplicated by other independent
researchers?
(46:37):
Um, the the evidence forvaccines is overwhelming.
So no matter how manyanti-vaxxers you listen to that
tell you that the CDC and theand the WHO are corrupt, it's
rubbish.
Um, they all, these majormedical organizations all agree
vaccines are safe and effective.
Um, so yeah, just you know, spotthe grift.
(46:59):
There's grift out there.
Somebody is making money fromselling supplements instead of
you using a perfectly safevaccine.
SPEAKER_02 (47:10):
But you know, what happens with if one of your
family members is actuallyfalling for it?
What would you do?
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
I don't know, I'm I'd be too cranky at the moment.
Yeah.
You what would you do?
Be quick, hurry up.
SPEAKER_02 (47:24):
Okay.
Um look, facts, as we've said,don't necessarily work, but you
can try a few approaches.
You know, you could start withyour shared values.
I know you love your kids, youwant to protect them, so do I.
So let's look at the actual riskdata together.
Um you can ask about theirsources, you know, where did you
where did you see it?
Can we look at it together?
SPEAKER_00 (47:42):
Yeah, making them wrong doesn't work, right?
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Making them wrong doesn't work.
Yeah.
Um and and look, if they won'tlisten, then protect your own
family.
You know, just make sure yourown kids are vaccinated on
schedule, advocate for schoolvaccine requirements, support
evidence-based health policy.
And if you have a child who'stoo young to be vaccinated, it
limits their exposure tounvaccinated children.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
So there we have it.
Uh listeners, um, thank you verymuch for listening to us today.
I hope, I really hope that thismessage is being disseminated to
all the countries that listen tothis podcast.
I mean, this is just a, youknow, some countries, it's just
two or three people that listento me.
(48:24):
But please, you know, take thetime to spread the news that
vaccines are safe and not tolisten to influencers, because
it really is.
We are at the absolute coal faceof trying to turn this
disastrous disinformationaround.
So thank you so much for tuningin.
Thank you, David.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
Yes, I'm off to get a shingled shot.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Are you?
Yeah, you should.
I had one, and apparently it'sprotective against dementia.
SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
It's got an added benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (48:52):
Vaccine bonus.
SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
Vaccine bonus.
So thank you so much for tuningin, listeners.
And as always, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hat on, and see youlater.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(49:16):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(49:39):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(49:59):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(50:20):
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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