October 13, 2025 • 24 mins
A glittering festival of certainty met a table of questions. We took you inside Sydney’s Mind Body Spirit Festival with pharmacist Kate Thomas and skeptic investigator Richard Saunders to test the confidence, the charisma, and the sweeping claims—everything from tarot to “age reversal” stem cell patches. What we found wasn’t just crystals and calm; it was a sales engine where scientific words get borrowed, anecdotes become evidence, and vulnerable people are nudged toward costly detours.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances to faux fur
jackets and kale smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband, I don't knowhim, but I did go through some
shocks to find him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
This week I am, in fact,broadcasting from the Sydney
(01:06):
Convention Centre, which is inDarling Harbour, in the center
of the city of Sydney.
And the reason that I ambroadcasting from there as
opposed to my usual NorthernBeaches broadcast is because
along with two of my skepticalfriends, I have been attending
(01:26):
the Mind Body Spirit Festival.
So you may be asking, what isthe Mind Body Spirit Festival?
Well, it is an amalgamation ofall things woo, um
pseudoscientific, and alt med.
(01:47):
So there are um psychics, forexample.
So when we walk through the umthe aisles and aisles and aisles
of woo practices and products,there must have been, I don't
know, maybe 200 psychics.
And let's just remember that yougo and talk to a psychic who's
(02:08):
going to read your tarot cardsor look into your future or
whatever, they're actually justtaking signals um from you.
Um it's called um cold reading.
They're just looking at you,asking leading questions, making
stuff up.
But the thing is they've all gotsome sort of glittery headdress
on, they sound certain andthey're quite compassionate, and
(02:29):
they look at you kindly, andthen people go, Oh, that was
amazing.
This psychic knew exactly umabout my past and had you know
accurately projected into myfuture and told me what was
going to be happening, but ofcourse it's all bunk.
Um, and they're not cheap, theywere all like 60 bucks because
one of my friends that was withme said, Why don't you go and
(02:50):
talk to one?
And I'm like, Because I don'twant to spend 60 bucks on
somebody who's going to scam me.
So there were psychics, therewas um, I don't know, really
strange things like uh a placethat was selling stem cell
patches, and as with all ofthem, they make some really
(03:12):
enormous claims.
So this is a stem cell patch,um, supports nerve regeneration,
improves lung tissue repair,improves memory and mental
clarity, supports more restfulsleep, promotes healthy stress
responses.
That's quite a lot, isn't it?
Um improves hormone balance,improves wound healing, supports
(03:33):
scar tissue remodeling, umincreases glycine for
inflammation, increaseshistidine for repair, and
increases lysine for collagen.
Um so as soon as you seesomething that does all that,
you know just for starters thatit's bunk.
And apparently, this is not thisparticular one, I won't tell you
(03:56):
the name of it in case they comeafter me and sue me, and I have
to sell my house, and then wherewould the dogs go?
And we'd all have to go and livein a caravan, that would be
really bad.
Um, so apparently it's notanti-aging, it's age reversal.
How good is that?
So, you know, and that's onepatch a day that you wear on an
acu point.
(04:16):
Um, but if you look at the whatthey're saying to you, so I've
got the thing in front of mehere, I have the brochure.
So in order to maximize thebenefits from this patch that
does all these things, you haveto drink a hollow water every 30
minutes.
(04:38):
I'm just looking at Harrybecause I'm like, every 30
minutes you have to drink fourto five ounces of water, you
have to consume properelectrolytes, you have to lessen
processed sugar intake, lessenprocessed foods, eat more
healthful foods, sweat-inducedexercise daily, get 10 to 20
minutes of sunshine daily, takea plant-based multivitamin, take
COQ10 or something in themorning and take the tumor
(05:00):
before bed.
So as you can see, the firstone, two, three, you people are
gonna put this patch on the backof their neck.
Then what they're gonna do, orthe practitioner is gonna say to
them, right, on top of this,you're gonna drink water every
30 minutes, you're going toexercise, you're going to eat
properly, and you're going to umget more sleep.
And guess what makes you feelbetter?
(05:22):
Those things.
But and that's the lie.
You're going to do all thesethings in addition to the patch,
but then going to say the reasonyou feel better is because of
the patch.
So there was that, there wassomething called access your
consciousness by some sort ofbar across your head, don't ask
me.
(05:43):
Um, there was something calledum you could go and do EMK
certification training andbecome a kinesiologist and
balance people's chakras.
There was a lot of chakrabalancing going on, let me tell
you that.
Um something called thealignment code, and something
(06:04):
called some meditation that wasgoing to rebalance and charge
your life.
So there was a lot.
There was a lot there.
And it was all pretty expensive,and there you have it.
So I did that, and I guess thequestion is, um why why bother
and what's the harm?
(06:24):
You know, why can't peoplewander around and buy a few
crystals and get a few essentialoils and I don't know, have a
nice day among the woo.
Um well, as I've just read toyou from this stem cell patch,
um, among the crystals and theessential oils and the aura
rebalancing, there's actually adangerous undercurrent.
(06:48):
So at least three salespeopleeither inferred or told me
outright that the product thatthey were touting could cure
cancer.
Now this is all communicatedwith a bit of a wink and a, you
know, a hand to the side of themouth, because in Australia it
is illegal to claim that theseproducts will cure cancer.
(07:11):
So they just come at it from asort of a sneaky um sidebar.
That's how they do it.
Um but they do make theseclaims.
And we had a lot of discussionon whether or not people believe
the things they're saying, and Iwould say there was a mixture.
Some people believed it, andsome are just were just
regurgitating what they've beentold.
But in at the end of the day,vulnerable people and desperate
(07:36):
people um die.
Scientific research is reallyhard and takes years, and
science tries to prove itselfwrong, and that is the point of
it.
It's it science methodology isreally stringent.
But what happens with thesealternate med pseudoscientific
purveyors is that they just usescientific sounding words and
(08:02):
sort of hint at some research.
So, look, if you find yourselfin one of these places or you
walk past a shop and it says,um, come in, you know, we've got
all these health foods and we'regoing to sell you some bone
broth and we've got somethingelse that supports your immune
system, you know, just bereally, really careful because
(08:22):
if something, if a product saysit can, you know, remove heavy
metals from your body, detoxyou, kill the parasites, and
rebalance your hormones and healcancer, they're lying.
They're lying to you.
And yet we're more likely tobelieve it because the people
(08:43):
that sell these things oftenhave a fervent belief that
they're right, and certaintyreally does cut across our
critical thinking skills.
Certainty and charisma.
So if someone really charismaticwith a certain sound in their
voice is saying to you, listen,this product's going to heal
your life, you're more likely tobelieve it.
So the two people I went with tothe Mind Body Spirit Festival
(09:08):
were Kate Thomas, who is apharmacist, married to an
oncologist, and RichardSaunders, who is the chief
investigator for the AustralianSkeptics.
So what we did when we walkedout of the Mind Body Spirit
Festival was we recorded alittle bit of an ep, a podcast
(09:28):
ep, and here it is.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Skeptic Zone
crossover podcast with AnnieMcCubbin.
SPEAKER_03 (09:37):
Oh Richard, I like that.
It's the amalgamation thateverything is of everything that
is good in podcast land, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
It is, it is.
We're here also with our uhrelatively new reporter, Kate
Thomas.
Hello, Kate.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Hi, Richard.
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
You two look like you're fried, both of you.
We've just come out of Mind BodyWallet.
And for the f and it was bothexhausted.
And for the uh both of you, itwas your first experience.
Now we've had time to what we'redoing now is we're about to have
a coffee.
We're detoxing from Mind BodySpirit, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
I'm getting rid of the parasites that that that
seemed to accumulate uh in mewhile I wandered through it.
I've never been to the Mind BodyBody Spirit Festival before, and
I was stunned to learn that's upevery six months.
Um I I could not go every sixmonths.
That's going to take me sixmonths to recover from the shock
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Well, it does take you six months to recover, then
you go back, you see.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
We also discovered the very sad news that Kate
Thomas has no stem cells, and Ifeel bad about that.
Kate, tell us about that.
Kate, what's the story?
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
I was in the process of being spiritually cleansed
and healed and reborn, and askeda gentleman to explain to me uh
the patch that he was selling,and he said it was because I had
no stem cells.
This is so mean.
I really feel like I have greatstem cells.
Anyway, but I can wear his patchand my own body's ultraviolet
(11:03):
light will activate the cell thematrix that it was a it was a
crystal matrix in the patch,which gets activated by my
internal body's light.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
And that helicopter.
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
And that helicopter.
Yeah.
And it will then regenerate mystem cells, which I need because
I I don't have any.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Yeah.
And I sensed you didn't haveany, and I've been concerned
about you.
But now that he's confirmed, Ican see what the problem has
been, but you're gonna get apatch.
So just to explain to our duallisteners what we were doing,
why would a bunch of sceptics beat the Mind Body Spirit
(11:44):
Festival, uh, which Richardcalls the Mind Body Wallet
Festival, and for very goodreasons, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Did you vote for did did you I I I fell for the Mind
Body Wallet.
I've I've I've come away withsome lovely yoga pants.
SPEAKER_03 (11:57):
Yeah.
Ca Kate actually came away withquite a a lot of stuff, didn't
you?
Really?
Richard and I were, I thought,were quite frugal.
No, Richard bought a t-shirtthat says Sydney, Brisbane,
Melbourne, Mind Body SpiritFestival.
So back to my original question,which is why would we bother
going to something which isfairly antithetical to our
(12:21):
beliefs systems?
I'll let Richard answer that.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
It's um from my point of view, it's very
important to go to this thing asoften as possible.
I mean, we're all skeptics, weall should know what we're
dealing with and talking about.
It's no good, uh, you know, alot of the times the skeptics
are accused.
Thank you.
This is my coffee, uh, quitethrow away line saying, Oh, you
armchair skeptics, you don'tknow anything.
Right, where we're the onesgoing out and investigating and
(12:47):
discovering.
So every six months, timepermitting, or if I'm, you know,
I can make it, I'll go.
And I will ask questions.
And that's exactly what you weredoing today.
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
We did go and we did ask questions, and I think it's
good having Kate come alongbecause Kate actually knows
science things, don't you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
I I know some science things.
Um, I mean, I know I I know thatyeast isn't bacteria, um, so so
I know that much.
And um, but I I was saying toRichard, I was trying to
approach it with the right, um,with the right attitude, and not
from um higher than thou kind ofholier than thou, thank you,
(13:29):
many, uh, kind of approach.
And there was a lot of good,there was some good vibes in
there.
You know, there are some thereare some good vibes, but the the
problem with the good vibes isthat amongst the good vibes,
there's some pseudosciencehealth issues, you know, like
the the patch that I was talkingabout before, which um which
will regenerate my scent my stemcells, but will also then cure
(13:53):
my cancer.
I mean that's that's not okay.
That's that's not alright.
It's one thing for yoga pants,but that's not okay.
SPEAKER_01 (13:59):
But I think you two might agree with me that most of
the people we stop to talk towho selling these things, be
they patches or miracle water oror whatever, um, seem to be
genuinely believing.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Yeah, and this is the question is what are people
true believers or are theyscamming the public?
And it's a fairly interestingand important distinction to
make, isn't it?
And I would say that the the umthe one that we stopped at near
the end that was selling theprobiotics from Japanese people,
I have my doubts as to whetheror not they believed it or
(14:33):
whether that is just a scam.
I don't know, and you can'ttell.
I can't climb inside their head,but it's dangerous nonsense.
And if we can go back to thepatches that are in, there's a
lovely picture of peopleenthusiastically standing on a
beach with these white patcheson their backs, and when um,
because my daughter was shedoesn't want to be identified,
but she was there, and we weasked some questions, as did
(14:54):
Kate, and I said to her, withthis patch that's meant to do
pretty much everything, whatabout cancer?
And she said, with quite a Idon't know, I thought of a high
degree of certainty, she saidyes.
And I said, Yes, what?
And she said, Well, yes, I meanit uses your own something in
(15:15):
your infrared something,whatever it was, but then she
said, All you'd have to do istake the patch off on the day
you I said, Would you not needchemotherapy?
She said, Well, you would justtake the day patch off on the
day of the chemotherapy, Ithink, because it might do
something to the patch, I don'tknow, and then put it back on.
But the thing is, to make thesewild generic claims, which with
(15:40):
such serv certainty, now shedoesn't know why I was saying
what about cancer.
For all she knows, I could haveit, and in fact, a member of my
family at the moment does haveit, right?
So she doesn't know why, but shewas very certain, and that's
very dangerous because toRichard's point, it's what it's
not cheap.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
No, and it again we get back to this point.
Are the people there that theyknow what they're talking about?
No, you know, from many pointsof view.
Now, the people selling thepatches and the other things,
mostly they're justregurgitating what they've been
told, right?
They don't know science andbiology.
Yeast is a what?
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Yeast is a bacteria.
I think um the patch people tome certainly seemed like true
believers.
He was showing me video of hisdog that he had put the patches
on his dog, and there was therewas video of the dog's uh old
(16:39):
dogs, you know, walking aroundarthritically, and then another
picture of what appeared to bethe same dog with 17 of these
patches on its um back, just onthe hair.
I said, have you shaved have youshaved that to get it to the
skin?
No, no, no, they just go on thehair.
Um of this dog bounding througha field of daisies.
Daisies, I think it I think Ithink it was a field of just
(17:01):
grass.
Yeah.
Um slow motion, was it thegolden retriever?
Because they Yes, no, it wasn'ta golden retriever, sadly, but
that would have been perfect.
You know, and and he said, youknow, you people people can say
what they like, but but animalsdon't lie, as if I could of
course animals lie.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
My cats lie every morning.
They say they haven't hadbreakfast after after I fed
them, you know.
But okay, first time going.
What did you expect versus whatyou found?
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
I didn't expect there to be uh so many products.
I think I expected there to be mmore.
I guess I'm I was coming from apharmacy conference.
I expected there to be a room ofposters where people would stand
by their poster and then talkabout their research, and then I
(17:48):
expected there to be sort of alecture series.
I didn't really think it wouldbe stalls of people sprooking.
Um so that was interestingbecause there was uh you mean
you wouldn't you wouldn't bewithout a crystal um or a deck
of tarot cards, would you?
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
No, no.
Well if you are you can buy themthere, you see.
SPEAKER_03 (18:09):
I just didn't um think there'd be such a lot.
It was just a lot.
Yeah, I mean I I kept wanting togo, and Richard kept saying, No,
you're doing very well.
He praised me for my resiliencein in the in the face of going
to the dark side, and I think Ideserved that praise.
Um but I didn't think there'd beso much, and so much repetition,
(18:29):
like there's so many psychics,and so many tarot card readers,
and so many crystals, and somany essential oils.
Um and and and before I went, Iwas telling my gym friends I was
going today, and they're like,What's the harm?
And there's the question, it'salways the question, what's the
harm?
(18:49):
And of course, as we know, fromthe moderate to the extreme, you
start to get into that sort ofthinking.
Somebody falls ill, and insteadof actually going down the
rational route, it's thealluring route because it's
simplistic, it's certain, itlacks evidence, but it's it's
got it'll cover everything, soyou can take there was that one
(19:11):
thing we saw.
What was it?
It was like um, I can't rememberthere were so many of them, but
it covered tumours, parasites,heavy heavy metals.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
It's the uridologist who had those signs of it.
Oh yes, yes.
I don't know what he wasselling, but he was an
iridologist.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
But he had there was there was drops or creams or
something.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
I I didn't see that too clearly.
SPEAKER_03 (19:31):
Yeah, that one.
I mean, we were standing and andand that we you said, oh look
the heavy metals, because as weknow, Alton Med is obsessed with
heavy metals, parasites, detox,and detoxing, and man.
So it comes back to this notionof what's the harm.
Well, if you start believinganodot anecdote over evidence,
then you're on a dangerousslippery slope if you happen to
(19:53):
come across a genuine healthissue.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
I agree, I would also add to that that the harm
can be you you perhaps arepursuing um a traditional
Western medicine-style treatmentfor your health concern.
And you are also exploringperhaps a a heavy metal detox or
(20:17):
whatever, you know, whatever itis these products are in fact
claiming to be, you don't feellike you can tell your physician
that you are doing this, but butthey're not harmless.
Just because they're herbaldoesn't make them harmless, and
they can have interactions andthey can have effects that
(20:38):
aren't that that you don't want,but then if the person treating
you doesn't know about it, thenyou know, then you can run into
real trouble.
SPEAKER_03 (20:47):
Um, well, I think that was um a very interesting
experience for all of us.
I'm personally exhausted.
What about you, Kate?
SPEAKER_02 (20:55):
No, I'm rejuvenated.
I I don't know how you can beexhausted.
I'm rejuvenated because I nowknow how to regrow my stem cells
and balance my parasites.
No, align my parasites?
No, I can't remember.
SPEAKER_03 (21:06):
Yeah.
I think I think what's happenedto you is you've discovered this
lack of stem cells and nowthey've been rejuvenated.
Um I've I've just been healed bybeing in the general atmosphere
of it, I feel, just by sort ofmoving through the space.
I just feel I could almost feelthe parasites just dropping away
from me as I walked.
(21:28):
Just dropping out of me.
And you were telling me thatkinesiology is a real thing and
it's only applied kinesiology,which is nonsense.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
What's kinesian?
Kinesiology is the science, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Did you know this?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
I didn't know this.
Did you know this, Lily?
I thought they were the samething.
SPEAKER_03 (21:43):
They're not.
Look at them.
No.
So I think it's it's thebeginning of a beautiful new
friendship that we've got sixmonthly.
Yeah, yeah.
Remeeting to see what we candiscover and how and I'm hoping
in the next six months that wesee some real improvement in
your stem cells.
Well, you wouldn't share any ofyours with me, so I will have to
(22:03):
regenerate using patch.
It's a boundary issue, Kate.
They're my stem cells, and I'veworked really hard on
maintaining them.
I detoxed, I got rid of theparasites.
They're mine.
My stem cells.
Back off.
That's all I've got to say toyou.
Anyway, uh that'll be over andout from the combined, what are
(22:26):
we calling it?
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
The Y Smart Zone Women's Zone or something.
SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
So the Y Smart Women's Zone.
So thank you so much, listeners.
Thank you for tuning in.
Stay smart, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you soon.
Bye.
So I hope you enjoyed that.
I'm sorry about you couldn'tsometimes hear all three of us
that we were working from onemic and drinking coffee and
(22:51):
preparing ourselves to drinkwine at the same time, just to
get over the shock of the wholething.
I hope you enjoyed that.
And as always, the point of thispodcast is to try and arm us
against the misinformation anddisinformation that is aimed at
us daily.
(23:12):
So I hope you enjoyed it.
And as always, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hat on.
See you soon.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
(23:34):
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as apainter, but it's not just about
what you know, it's about howyou think.
(23:55):
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
(24:17):
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
(24:39):
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances to faux fur
jackets and kale smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband, I don't knowhim, but I did go through some
shocks to find him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
This week I am, in fact,broadcasting from the Sydney
(01:06):
Convention Centre, which is inDarling Harbour, in the center
of the city of Sydney.
And the reason that I ambroadcasting from there as
opposed to my usual NorthernBeaches broadcast is because
along with two of my skepticalfriends, I have been attending
(01:26):
the Mind Body Spirit Festival.
So you may be asking, what isthe Mind Body Spirit Festival?
Well, it is an amalgamation ofall things woo, um
pseudoscientific, and alt med.
(01:47):
So there are um psychics, forexample.
So when we walk through the umthe aisles and aisles and aisles
of woo practices and products,there must have been, I don't
know, maybe 200 psychics.
And let's just remember that yougo and talk to a psychic who's
(02:08):
going to read your tarot cardsor look into your future or
whatever, they're actually justtaking signals um from you.
Um it's called um cold reading.
They're just looking at you,asking leading questions, making
stuff up.
But the thing is they've all gotsome sort of glittery headdress
on, they sound certain andthey're quite compassionate, and
(02:29):
they look at you kindly, andthen people go, Oh, that was
amazing.
This psychic knew exactly umabout my past and had you know
accurately projected into myfuture and told me what was
going to be happening, but ofcourse it's all bunk.
Um, and they're not cheap, theywere all like 60 bucks because
one of my friends that was withme said, Why don't you go and
(02:50):
talk to one?
And I'm like, Because I don'twant to spend 60 bucks on
somebody who's going to scam me.
So there were psychics, therewas um, I don't know, really
strange things like uh a placethat was selling stem cell
patches, and as with all ofthem, they make some really
(03:12):
enormous claims.
So this is a stem cell patch,um, supports nerve regeneration,
improves lung tissue repair,improves memory and mental
clarity, supports more restfulsleep, promotes healthy stress
responses.
That's quite a lot, isn't it?
Um improves hormone balance,improves wound healing, supports
(03:33):
scar tissue remodeling, umincreases glycine for
inflammation, increaseshistidine for repair, and
increases lysine for collagen.
Um so as soon as you seesomething that does all that,
you know just for starters thatit's bunk.
And apparently, this is not thisparticular one, I won't tell you
(03:56):
the name of it in case they comeafter me and sue me, and I have
to sell my house, and then wherewould the dogs go?
And we'd all have to go and livein a caravan, that would be
really bad.
Um, so apparently it's notanti-aging, it's age reversal.
How good is that?
So, you know, and that's onepatch a day that you wear on an
acu point.
(04:16):
Um, but if you look at the whatthey're saying to you, so I've
got the thing in front of mehere, I have the brochure.
So in order to maximize thebenefits from this patch that
does all these things, you haveto drink a hollow water every 30
minutes.
(04:38):
I'm just looking at Harrybecause I'm like, every 30
minutes you have to drink fourto five ounces of water, you
have to consume properelectrolytes, you have to lessen
processed sugar intake, lessenprocessed foods, eat more
healthful foods, sweat-inducedexercise daily, get 10 to 20
minutes of sunshine daily, takea plant-based multivitamin, take
COQ10 or something in themorning and take the tumor
(05:00):
before bed.
So as you can see, the firstone, two, three, you people are
gonna put this patch on the backof their neck.
Then what they're gonna do, orthe practitioner is gonna say to
them, right, on top of this,you're gonna drink water every
30 minutes, you're going toexercise, you're going to eat
properly, and you're going to umget more sleep.
And guess what makes you feelbetter?
(05:22):
Those things.
But and that's the lie.
You're going to do all thesethings in addition to the patch,
but then going to say the reasonyou feel better is because of
the patch.
So there was that, there wassomething called access your
consciousness by some sort ofbar across your head, don't ask
me.
(05:43):
Um, there was something calledum you could go and do EMK
certification training andbecome a kinesiologist and
balance people's chakras.
There was a lot of chakrabalancing going on, let me tell
you that.
Um something called thealignment code, and something
(06:04):
called some meditation that wasgoing to rebalance and charge
your life.
So there was a lot.
There was a lot there.
And it was all pretty expensive,and there you have it.
So I did that, and I guess thequestion is, um why why bother
and what's the harm?
(06:24):
You know, why can't peoplewander around and buy a few
crystals and get a few essentialoils and I don't know, have a
nice day among the woo.
Um well, as I've just read toyou from this stem cell patch,
um, among the crystals and theessential oils and the aura
rebalancing, there's actually adangerous undercurrent.
(06:48):
So at least three salespeopleeither inferred or told me
outright that the product thatthey were touting could cure
cancer.
Now this is all communicatedwith a bit of a wink and a, you
know, a hand to the side of themouth, because in Australia it
is illegal to claim that theseproducts will cure cancer.
(07:11):
So they just come at it from asort of a sneaky um sidebar.
That's how they do it.
Um but they do make theseclaims.
And we had a lot of discussionon whether or not people believe
the things they're saying, and Iwould say there was a mixture.
Some people believed it, andsome are just were just
regurgitating what they've beentold.
But in at the end of the day,vulnerable people and desperate
(07:36):
people um die.
Scientific research is reallyhard and takes years, and
science tries to prove itselfwrong, and that is the point of
it.
It's it science methodology isreally stringent.
But what happens with thesealternate med pseudoscientific
purveyors is that they just usescientific sounding words and
(08:02):
sort of hint at some research.
So, look, if you find yourselfin one of these places or you
walk past a shop and it says,um, come in, you know, we've got
all these health foods and we'regoing to sell you some bone
broth and we've got somethingelse that supports your immune
system, you know, just bereally, really careful because
(08:22):
if something, if a product saysit can, you know, remove heavy
metals from your body, detoxyou, kill the parasites, and
rebalance your hormones and healcancer, they're lying.
They're lying to you.
And yet we're more likely tobelieve it because the people
(08:43):
that sell these things oftenhave a fervent belief that
they're right, and certaintyreally does cut across our
critical thinking skills.
Certainty and charisma.
So if someone really charismaticwith a certain sound in their
voice is saying to you, listen,this product's going to heal
your life, you're more likely tobelieve it.
So the two people I went with tothe Mind Body Spirit Festival
(09:08):
were Kate Thomas, who is apharmacist, married to an
oncologist, and RichardSaunders, who is the chief
investigator for the AustralianSkeptics.
So what we did when we walkedout of the Mind Body Spirit
Festival was we recorded alittle bit of an ep, a podcast
(09:28):
ep, and here it is.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Skeptic Zone
crossover podcast with AnnieMcCubbin.
SPEAKER_03 (09:37):
Oh Richard, I like that.
It's the amalgamation thateverything is of everything that
is good in podcast land, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
It is, it is.
We're here also with our uhrelatively new reporter, Kate
Thomas.
Hello, Kate.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Hi, Richard.
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
You two look like you're fried, both of you.
We've just come out of Mind BodyWallet.
And for the f and it was bothexhausted.
And for the uh both of you, itwas your first experience.
Now we've had time to what we'redoing now is we're about to have
a coffee.
We're detoxing from Mind BodySpirit, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
I'm getting rid of the parasites that that that
seemed to accumulate uh in mewhile I wandered through it.
I've never been to the Mind BodyBody Spirit Festival before, and
I was stunned to learn that's upevery six months.
Um I I could not go every sixmonths.
That's going to take me sixmonths to recover from the shock
of that.
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Well, it does take you six months to recover, then
you go back, you see.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
We also discovered the very sad news that Kate
Thomas has no stem cells, and Ifeel bad about that.
Kate, tell us about that.
Kate, what's the story?
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
I was in the process of being spiritually cleansed
and healed and reborn, and askeda gentleman to explain to me uh
the patch that he was selling,and he said it was because I had
no stem cells.
This is so mean.
I really feel like I have greatstem cells.
Anyway, but I can wear his patchand my own body's ultraviolet
(11:03):
light will activate the cell thematrix that it was a it was a
crystal matrix in the patch,which gets activated by my
internal body's light.
SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
And that helicopter.
SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
And that helicopter.
Yeah.
And it will then regenerate mystem cells, which I need because
I I don't have any.
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Yeah.
And I sensed you didn't haveany, and I've been concerned
about you.
But now that he's confirmed, Ican see what the problem has
been, but you're gonna get apatch.
So just to explain to our duallisteners what we were doing,
why would a bunch of sceptics beat the Mind Body Spirit
(11:44):
Festival, uh, which Richardcalls the Mind Body Wallet
Festival, and for very goodreasons, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Did you vote for did did you I I I fell for the Mind
Body Wallet.
I've I've I've come away withsome lovely yoga pants.
SPEAKER_03 (11:57):
Yeah.
Ca Kate actually came away withquite a a lot of stuff, didn't
you?
Really?
Richard and I were, I thought,were quite frugal.
No, Richard bought a t-shirtthat says Sydney, Brisbane,
Melbourne, Mind Body SpiritFestival.
So back to my original question,which is why would we bother
going to something which isfairly antithetical to our
(12:21):
beliefs systems?
I'll let Richard answer that.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
It's um from my point of view, it's very
important to go to this thing asoften as possible.
I mean, we're all skeptics, weall should know what we're
dealing with and talking about.
It's no good, uh, you know, alot of the times the skeptics
are accused.
Thank you.
This is my coffee, uh, quitethrow away line saying, Oh, you
armchair skeptics, you don'tknow anything.
Right, where we're the onesgoing out and investigating and
(12:47):
discovering.
So every six months, timepermitting, or if I'm, you know,
I can make it, I'll go.
And I will ask questions.
And that's exactly what you weredoing today.
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
We did go and we did ask questions, and I think it's
good having Kate come alongbecause Kate actually knows
science things, don't you?
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
I I know some science things.
Um, I mean, I know I I know thatyeast isn't bacteria, um, so so
I know that much.
And um, but I I was saying toRichard, I was trying to
approach it with the right, um,with the right attitude, and not
from um higher than thou kind ofholier than thou, thank you,
(13:29):
many, uh, kind of approach.
And there was a lot of good,there was some good vibes in
there.
You know, there are some thereare some good vibes, but the the
problem with the good vibes isthat amongst the good vibes,
there's some pseudosciencehealth issues, you know, like
the the patch that I was talkingabout before, which um which
will regenerate my scent my stemcells, but will also then cure
(13:53):
my cancer.
I mean that's that's not okay.
That's that's not alright.
It's one thing for yoga pants,but that's not okay.
SPEAKER_01 (13:59):
But I think you two might agree with me that most of
the people we stop to talk towho selling these things, be
they patches or miracle water oror whatever, um, seem to be
genuinely believing.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Yeah, and this is the question is what are people
true believers or are theyscamming the public?
And it's a fairly interestingand important distinction to
make, isn't it?
And I would say that the the umthe one that we stopped at near
the end that was selling theprobiotics from Japanese people,
I have my doubts as to whetheror not they believed it or
(14:33):
whether that is just a scam.
I don't know, and you can'ttell.
I can't climb inside their head,but it's dangerous nonsense.
And if we can go back to thepatches that are in, there's a
lovely picture of peopleenthusiastically standing on a
beach with these white patcheson their backs, and when um,
because my daughter was shedoesn't want to be identified,
but she was there, and we weasked some questions, as did
(14:54):
Kate, and I said to her, withthis patch that's meant to do
pretty much everything, whatabout cancer?
And she said, with quite a Idon't know, I thought of a high
degree of certainty, she saidyes.
And I said, Yes, what?
And she said, Well, yes, I meanit uses your own something in
(15:15):
your infrared something,whatever it was, but then she
said, All you'd have to do istake the patch off on the day
you I said, Would you not needchemotherapy?
She said, Well, you would justtake the day patch off on the
day of the chemotherapy, Ithink, because it might do
something to the patch, I don'tknow, and then put it back on.
But the thing is, to make thesewild generic claims, which with
(15:40):
such serv certainty, now shedoesn't know why I was saying
what about cancer.
For all she knows, I could haveit, and in fact, a member of my
family at the moment does haveit, right?
So she doesn't know why, but shewas very certain, and that's
very dangerous because toRichard's point, it's what it's
not cheap.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
No, and it again we get back to this point.
Are the people there that theyknow what they're talking about?
No, you know, from many pointsof view.
Now, the people selling thepatches and the other things,
mostly they're justregurgitating what they've been
told, right?
They don't know science andbiology.
Yeast is a what?
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Yeast is a bacteria.
I think um the patch people tome certainly seemed like true
believers.
He was showing me video of hisdog that he had put the patches
on his dog, and there was therewas video of the dog's uh old
(16:39):
dogs, you know, walking aroundarthritically, and then another
picture of what appeared to bethe same dog with 17 of these
patches on its um back, just onthe hair.
I said, have you shaved have youshaved that to get it to the
skin?
No, no, no, they just go on thehair.
Um of this dog bounding througha field of daisies.
Daisies, I think it I think Ithink it was a field of just
(17:01):
grass.
Yeah.
Um slow motion, was it thegolden retriever?
Because they Yes, no, it wasn'ta golden retriever, sadly, but
that would have been perfect.
You know, and and he said, youknow, you people people can say
what they like, but but animalsdon't lie, as if I could of
course animals lie.
SPEAKER_01 (17:16):
My cats lie every morning.
They say they haven't hadbreakfast after after I fed
them, you know.
But okay, first time going.
What did you expect versus whatyou found?
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
I didn't expect there to be uh so many products.
I think I expected there to be mmore.
I guess I'm I was coming from apharmacy conference.
I expected there to be a room ofposters where people would stand
by their poster and then talkabout their research, and then I
(17:48):
expected there to be sort of alecture series.
I didn't really think it wouldbe stalls of people sprooking.
Um so that was interestingbecause there was uh you mean
you wouldn't you wouldn't bewithout a crystal um or a deck
of tarot cards, would you?
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
No, no.
Well if you are you can buy themthere, you see.
SPEAKER_03 (18:09):
I just didn't um think there'd be such a lot.
It was just a lot.
Yeah, I mean I I kept wanting togo, and Richard kept saying, No,
you're doing very well.
He praised me for my resiliencein in the in the face of going
to the dark side, and I think Ideserved that praise.
Um but I didn't think there'd beso much, and so much repetition,
(18:29):
like there's so many psychics,and so many tarot card readers,
and so many crystals, and somany essential oils.
Um and and and before I went, Iwas telling my gym friends I was
going today, and they're like,What's the harm?
And there's the question, it'salways the question, what's the
harm?
(18:49):
And of course, as we know, fromthe moderate to the extreme, you
start to get into that sort ofthinking.
Somebody falls ill, and insteadof actually going down the
rational route, it's thealluring route because it's
simplistic, it's certain, itlacks evidence, but it's it's
got it'll cover everything, soyou can take there was that one
(19:11):
thing we saw.
What was it?
It was like um, I can't rememberthere were so many of them, but
it covered tumours, parasites,heavy heavy metals.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
It's the uridologist who had those signs of it.
Oh yes, yes.
I don't know what he wasselling, but he was an
iridologist.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
But he had there was there was drops or creams or
something.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
I I didn't see that too clearly.
SPEAKER_03 (19:31):
Yeah, that one.
I mean, we were standing and andand that we you said, oh look
the heavy metals, because as weknow, Alton Med is obsessed with
heavy metals, parasites, detox,and detoxing, and man.
So it comes back to this notionof what's the harm.
Well, if you start believinganodot anecdote over evidence,
then you're on a dangerousslippery slope if you happen to
(19:53):
come across a genuine healthissue.
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
I agree, I would also add to that that the harm
can be you you perhaps arepursuing um a traditional
Western medicine-style treatmentfor your health concern.
And you are also exploringperhaps a a heavy metal detox or
(20:17):
whatever, you know, whatever itis these products are in fact
claiming to be, you don't feellike you can tell your physician
that you are doing this, but butthey're not harmless.
Just because they're herbaldoesn't make them harmless, and
they can have interactions andthey can have effects that
(20:38):
aren't that that you don't want,but then if the person treating
you doesn't know about it, thenyou know, then you can run into
real trouble.
SPEAKER_03 (20:47):
Um, well, I think that was um a very interesting
experience for all of us.
I'm personally exhausted.
What about you, Kate?
SPEAKER_02 (20:55):
No, I'm rejuvenated.
I I don't know how you can beexhausted.
I'm rejuvenated because I nowknow how to regrow my stem cells
and balance my parasites.
No, align my parasites?
No, I can't remember.
SPEAKER_03 (21:06):
Yeah.
I think I think what's happenedto you is you've discovered this
lack of stem cells and nowthey've been rejuvenated.
Um I've I've just been healed bybeing in the general atmosphere
of it, I feel, just by sort ofmoving through the space.
I just feel I could almost feelthe parasites just dropping away
from me as I walked.
(21:28):
Just dropping out of me.
And you were telling me thatkinesiology is a real thing and
it's only applied kinesiology,which is nonsense.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
What's kinesian?
Kinesiology is the science, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Did you know this?
SPEAKER_02 (21:39):
I didn't know this.
Did you know this, Lily?
I thought they were the samething.
SPEAKER_03 (21:43):
They're not.
Look at them.
No.
So I think it's it's thebeginning of a beautiful new
friendship that we've got sixmonthly.
Yeah, yeah.
Remeeting to see what we candiscover and how and I'm hoping
in the next six months that wesee some real improvement in
your stem cells.
Well, you wouldn't share any ofyours with me, so I will have to
(22:03):
regenerate using patch.
It's a boundary issue, Kate.
They're my stem cells, and I'veworked really hard on
maintaining them.
I detoxed, I got rid of theparasites.
They're mine.
My stem cells.
Back off.
That's all I've got to say toyou.
Anyway, uh that'll be over andout from the combined, what are
(22:26):
we calling it?
SPEAKER_01 (22:27):
The Y Smart Zone Women's Zone or something.
SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
So the Y Smart Women's Zone.
So thank you so much, listeners.
Thank you for tuning in.
Stay smart, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you soon.
Bye.
So I hope you enjoyed that.
I'm sorry about you couldn'tsometimes hear all three of us
that we were working from onemic and drinking coffee and
(22:51):
preparing ourselves to drinkwine at the same time, just to
get over the shock of the wholething.
I hope you enjoyed that.
And as always, the point of thispodcast is to try and arm us
against the misinformation anddisinformation that is aimed at
us daily.
(23:12):
So I hope you enjoyed it.
And as always, stay safe, staywell, keep your critical
thinking hat on.
See you soon.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
(23:34):
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as apainter, but it's not just about
what you know, it's about howyou think.
(23:55):
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut,
if you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
(24:17):
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
(24:39):
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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