November 5, 2025 • 50 mins
We explore how humour does real work: building critical thinking, lowering defensiveness, and fuelling social change, from pandemic myths to political power. Two kinds of laughter—herd and heights—show why some jokes harm and others heal, with practical ways to use comedy well.
• role of laughter in learning, groups, and connection
• comedy as a response to fear and frustration
• philosophers on humour from Plato to Nietzsche
• herd laughter versus heights laughter
• political mockery, late‑night satire, and why power hates jokes
• case study of Pete Evans and the cut‑through of Tom Gleeson
• RISE and Funny or Die driving legislative change
• self‑deprecation and avoiding punching down
• small steps to craft humorous messages for impact
• safety, critical thinking, and staying connected
Keep your critical thinking hats on. And don't forget to subscribe, wait, and review the podcast, and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
You are listening to the why smart women podcasts.
The podcast that helps smartwomen work out why we repeatedly
make the wrong decisions and howto make better work.
From relationships, we'rechoices, finances, objectives,
and tail smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good questions.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm your own.
Really bad decisions.
I've got this.
And this podcast has been aroundto save me from myself.
This podcast will give insightsinto the working of your own
brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting fromSydney, New South Wales,
(01:04):
Australia on the northernbeaches.
It is a beautiful spring day.
Sorry to show off, but it trulyis.
And later on, I'll be going downfor a swim in the ocean.
David, will you be going for aswim in the ocean?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Oh look, I would I would very much like to
actually.
I was I was thinking just then.
You said that you werebroadcasting, aren't you?
Podcasting?
Is it is it different?
I think so.
I think I think broadcastingwould be birds being sent to a
broad range of receivingdevices, teleph televisions and
radios and things like that.
Maybe it is.
We're we're podcasting from thenorthern beaches.
Oh, we're podcasting.
Not that it matters.
(01:36):
It sort of doesn't.
Not that it matters.
I was just kind of I was curiousabout that particular thought.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
I get a bit vague.
Anyway, wherever you arewherever you are in the world
and welcome because we now havelisteners in Jamaica.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Oh my goodness.
Gee, I hope the the Jamaicansare okay after the cyclone.
SPEAKER_03 (01:54):
Yes, I oh exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
I mean that looks absolutely devastating.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Yeah.
Gee, guys, hope you're okaythere.
Um Hello to our listeners inTokyo and Nova Scotia.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
And Nova Scotia, Canada.
Lovely.
And and and and all those closerto home as well.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yes, hello.
Hello.
Um, so this is part two of ourpodcast on humour and the uses
of humour and you know, is islaughter handy?
And today we're going to look atit in a more uh broader sense.
So last in our last um editionwe talked about um how laughter
(02:34):
physically affects you, what itdoes to your brain, and how good
it is to be able to laugh at umlife's foibles and tribulations.
And today we're going to broadenit out a bit.
And I thought I'd s I thoughtI'd start by going back to 2021
when COVID hit.
(02:56):
Yes?
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
Well, yes, it I mean it was really 20 that it that it
that it did hit.
COVID 19.
It emerged at the end of theyear.
Oh, that's true, yes.
So so 20 into 21, yeah, it had along tail, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
And I can remember when it um when it actually
began and they talked about howlong it was going to take them
to develop a vaccine for it.
And I I remember thinking at thetime, this is awesome, because
now we're in the middle of apandemic.
(03:31):
Um this is going to be the endof all the the sort of anti-vaxx
activism.
I thought that's gonna be theend of it.
Everyone's gonna realise we'rein this really dreadful
situation, you know, the bodieswere building up in New York, it
was just all going haywire, youknow, we had to you know, we we
had to socially distance, wecouldn't leave our houses, it
(03:53):
was devastating.
And I remember thinking, well,that's great, because finally
they're gonna have to lay downand get vaccinated.
And in instead of that, whathappened, David?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, I mean, people said no.
They got worse.
I mean, some did, not everybodydid.
There, you know, uh I think theyou we have to acknowledge that
the majority of the populationactually um accepted the advice
of the scientists and followedthe rules and did what needed to
be done, and thereby containingthe the the devastating
consequences of the of thevirus.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Yes, um and it's true.
We we did we did quite well.
We had very high vaccinationrates, even though they're now
dropping a bit because of thestupidity of the anti-vax
movement and the fact thatthey're still banging on about
turbo cancers and all the restof it anyway.
They're they're mad.
Anyway, so um that happened andI became infuriated about this,
(04:48):
about the lack of criticalthinking.
So, what did I do with my fury?
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Well, you you you wrote a second book.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
I wrote a first book.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
What what it was um Why Smart Women Make Bad
Decisions 2021?
SPEAKER_03 (05:05):
Wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
I thought it was earlier than that.
Was it?
I don't know.
I could have my dates all wrong.
Ah, no, that's right.
No, yeah, uh Why Smart WomenMake Bad Decisions was published
in twenty-one.
And um yeah, Why Smart Women Buythe Lies of Twenty Three.
I am so sorry, Annie.
SPEAKER_03 (05:23):
I I don't care.
I I'm terrible with datesanyway.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
I got that history wrong.
So yeah, you were you weretremendously frustrated by the
lack of critical thinking andyou wanted to correct that.
So did you write a you knowdusty scientific serious tree
ties on the nature of criticalthinking?
No.
No, no, no, why not?
Surely that's what was required.
SPEAKER_03 (05:43):
No, I did not.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
People needed to be corrected.
SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
Well, there's plenty of books on critical thinking,
but they're all written by menand they're all pretty dry and
academic.
And I thought, because it waspretty important that we managed
to get this point across thatpeople were making very poor
health decisions.
(06:06):
So I wrote a comedic book, WhySmart Women Make Bad Decisions.
Please, if you are listening tothis, you can um you can get the
audiobook if you're not so mucha reader.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's been the audiobook is fabulous.
It is.
I actually reckon the audiobooksare even better than the the
book experience.
But then maybe that's because ofthe way that my brain works and
I I like to listen to storiesout loud.
But the audio the audiobooks arefantastic and they are really
funny.
Some fantastic comedicperformances from the actors.
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
So I wrote this book that was comedic.
So why would I use comedy andhumor to actually extrapolate on
something, to describesomething, to challenge
something that is so deeply,deeply important to me.
(06:58):
Why would I do that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
Yeah, do you know what do you know that was
rhetorical?
SPEAKER_03 (07:02):
Please answer.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
No, well the answer to that question, um it is not
that that you thought that umthat uh you know you needed to
employ a tried and tested, youknow, technique that would
engage and transport readers,etc.
You have instincts for comedy.
You know, you wrote it that waybecause that's what you like to
(07:23):
write.
You a and and and I think thatyou you you write that way
because you know that you likewriting that way because you
know the effect that humour justhas on people.
You know, you've done lots oftheatre and um and there's
nothing like doing a great playthat's really, really funny and
having an audience.
SPEAKER_03 (07:41):
Having the wave of an audio the the the laughter
wave coming at you on stage, theripple the ripple of laughter
coming at you on stage, there isabsolutely nothing like that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's absolutely joyous, and to
know that you've kind ofcontributed in in making a you
know an audience of five hundredpeople absolutely crack up and
laugh together is tremendouslysatisfying.
Sorry, go on.
But I was gonna say, I mean,that's in the theatre.
I know that when we go aboutdesigning a uh a development
experience, a trainingprogramme, if we're looking at
(08:13):
something like performanceconversations or you know, how
to induct somebody or how to,you know, help them to overcome,
you know, psychologicalchallenges and things like that.
When we're teaching that stuff,we always dramatize in comedic
um styles.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
Right?
We know it has cut through thatthat laughter, um, if you have a
group of people laughing, thereis an automatic sort of
receptivity in the brain of agroup experience, and there's
something about a groupexperience, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
Yeah, yeah.
When we laugh at the samethings, there's a implicit
message that we share the samevalues.
I mean, think about that.
Yeah.
Um, why do, you know, why doesan audience of five hundred
people find the same thingfunny?
Well, they all share the samevalues around, you know, people
being destabilized or peoplebeing deceptive or people being
(09:09):
caught out.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Um It's almost like a contagion as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yeah, it's a it's a it's a contagion that travels
because, again, we share thesame values, which is a very
psychologically, you know,satisfying and stabilizing
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Did I tell you what happened when I took um Yo Yo
and Ryder to the surf beach?
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Oh, you came back a bit frazzled after that.
SPEAKER_03 (09:34):
Well, well, yeah.
So uh you know, we I I havespoken before on the podcast
about the fact that Mona ValeBeach has now been designated a
dog beach, and this is pr priorto Ryder's disaster with the
Lululemon sock, yeah.
Um, which he's still recoveringfrom, and we've had to, you
know, instruct Yo-Yo not to givehim any more socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (09:57):
Because she was behind it.
Anyway, so I took them to theMonavale beach.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
They would have been very excited to arrive there.
SPEAKER_03 (10:05):
Oh, they were excited, and it was the most
glorious, abundant, you know,wonderful sort of social
experience.
They were bounding through thewaves and they just absolutely
they loved it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
There would have been at least a hundred doggies
there, I would say.
SPEAKER_03 (10:21):
Yeah, there was a lot of the doggies anyway, and
so I was there because you weresomewhere, and I was there on my
own.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Oh.
SPEAKER_03 (10:28):
So what happened was so they're bounding through this
beautiful, and then guess to thetime where you have to clear the
beach because it's limited time.
So I've got one lead and I'vehooked one end into rider's
collar.
Now, the first thing thathappened was that the the the
clasp on the lead, right, yes,had gone crunchy because there
(10:50):
was salt and I couldn't hook iton.
SPEAKER_04 (10:52):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (10:53):
Right.
So I'm hanging on to yo-yo withmy left hand and rider with my
right hand, and I had to say tosome woman on the beach, would
you mind?
Because I do have um arthritisin my thumbs, would you mind
clipping this onto the dog?
So she said, sure.
And then she tried and she said,Oh my god, I can't.
I said, Never mind.
So then I hooked the lead, I hadyo-yo hooked, and then I
(11:16):
threaded the lead throughRyder's collar and I made my way
up the beach, right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
This is a gripping amount of detail.
It's gripping, but it's correct.
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
And then um yo-yo did a poo.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
So then I've got to stop.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
What on the on the on the on the pathway back up?
On the sand.
SPEAKER_03 (11:32):
I'm still on the sand.
Keep up, keep up.
I'm on the sand, I'm headingtowards the pathway.
It's a long way up.
I'm on the sand.
She does a poo.
I've got to stop, I've got topick that up.
So I get halfway up the beach,then Ryder turns and sees a
Labrador.
So he then runs off.
And what he does is he runs offand he runs off so quickly
(11:55):
towards the Labrador, right?
Towards the Labrador, who wasback who was back down the beach
at the and in the in near thenear the foreshore.
He runs off with such alacritythat he rips Yo-Yo's collar off
her completely.
So he then runs down the beach,he's then got the whole lead and
Yo-Yo's collar.
So I'm there, right?
I've got now as we know, Yo-Yois an escape artist.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (12:19):
And what was about to happen?
She was about to run off and Idon't know, run to Manley or
Adelaide or Perth or something.
The dog's unstoppable, right?
Yep, yep.
So I've grabbed hold of Yo Yojust by her fur and I've still
got the poo bag, right?
Yes.
I turn around and he's humpingthe Labrador.
Well, he loves Labradors.
He loves to hump Labradors.
(12:39):
And especially right, doesn'the?
SPEAKER_01 (12:41):
Yeah, well, yes.
Well, it's true.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (12:43):
I mean, I know he's your favourite dog, but he's got
a bad habit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Okay.
Yes.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
Yes, so he's humping a Labrador.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
And I know that the Labrador's owner probably
wouldn't have been terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (12:52):
The Labrador wasn't thought, and the owner wasn't
thought.
So then I had to say to thiscouple that were near me, can
you please hang on to the blackblack dog?
Don't let her go, there's nocollar, while I go back and get
him.
So then this nice couple held onto Yo-Yo by her fur.
I handed the girl the poo bag,she held on to that.
I ran back down the beach.
Right.
Okay.
I grab Yo-Yo off the Labrador.
(13:13):
No, uh rider off the Labrador.
So then he runs back into thesurf.
Right.
So then he's in the surf aftersome other dog's ball, and then
some owner's cranky because thatthey had that ball ownership
bullshit going on.
So then I get yo-yo out of thesurf, I go back up the beach, he
does a poo on the way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:32):
So then I've got two poo bags.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Two poo bags.
SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
I get up to two dogs.
I get up to yo-yo, I manage toget the collar back on yo-yo,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
And then he ran off again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Right.
This is a tremendous amount ofdetail.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
I know, but it's necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
It's interesting and necessary.
Okay, all right, all right, allright.
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Okay, so that you've got dogs going in all
directions.
All directions.
And I'm very, very stressed.
SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
At this point, there's four people on the beach
trying to assist me to get thedogs off the beach.
Four people.
And then Rowena, my friend, shecame down with Jack, her
Labrador, because I'd been solong.
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
Not another Labrador.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
And he's very prone to humping, Jack.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Did it did it cat did it cat did Jack catch
Labradors?
Sorry.
Did Jack catch Ryder's eye?
SPEAKER_03 (14:17):
Yeah.
So then Ryder ran towards Jackbecause he thought he's more
humping opportunity.
Right.
So then I get onto the stairsand then Rowena comes back down,
and at this point I can't hookeither of the class in because
they're so salt encrusted.
Okay, yes.
I get up to the top.
SPEAKER_04 (14:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:33):
Now the peat then I get up the top.
The dogs are covered in sand inmy beautiful new electric car,
right?
Right.
Then I go to the shower area.
Or I'm trying to get the dogsunderneath the shower.
And this other boy comes overthat had already helped me on
the beach and he said, Let mehelp you.
So I'm hanging on to Yo-Yo, andhe's trying to push Yo-Yo into
the shower stream.
And then I turned the shower on,and Yo Yo wasn't under the
(14:55):
shower, I was.
So I was then drenched.
The dogs were sand encrusted.
Yes.
I was completely drenched.
Um I and then I tried to put mytrack pants back on.
The whole thing was a disaster.
I got them back in the car, andRowena and I went and drank
wine, and I looked homeless.
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
Okay.
This is dreadful.
No, no, civilized woman shouldhave to deal with such a
disaster.
SPEAKER_03 (15:20):
I will never take those dogs to Mona Vale Beach on
my own as long as I as God is myas God is my witness, I will
never be hungry again.
As God is my witness, I willnever ever take those dogs the
beach ever again.
I hate them.
I hated them so much at thatpoint.
All right.
But then after I got in the carand we decided to go and get a
glass of wine, which I threwdown my throat, berating the
(15:43):
dogs at great lengths.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
What is this?
Is this ten o'clock in themorning?
SPEAKER_03 (15:46):
No, darling, it's five o'clock in the afternoon.
Okay, the But don't day drinkthe twilight up.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
The twilight show.
SPEAKER_03 (15:52):
When have you ever known me to day drink?
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
I we should start.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
I don't I don't day drink.
I will never day drink, I don'tlike it.
Anyway, so then we got there andthen we sat there and I was
sopping wet in just I lookedhomeless.
I don't mean to laugh at thehomeless, that was mean, I would
track that.
No, I won't, it's true.
I did look homeless.
And we sat there with me hatingon the dogs and we laughed a lot
about that.
That's all I've got to say aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Okay, so okay, and and the moral of the story is go
on.
I don't know you're telling thestory.
It's your moral.
SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
Well, yeah, I mean it's back to that point, and we
are going to I had to tell thatstory though, because I had to
get it off my chest.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
If you don't if you don't laugh, you'll cry.
SPEAKER_03 (16:31):
Well, I could've it's a bit like the the um the
bush turkey on the on the on umThe brush turkey.
Bush.
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
Bush, okay.
Bush turkey.
SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
If you don't, you know, laugh at this situation,
then you get upset.
And I could have got reallyupset because I was very cold
and wet and and the dogs wereawful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
Yeah.
But yeah.
I'm glad you didn't.
It's a bit of a first-worldproblem.
You know, your your dog'srunning off when you take them
to Montevideo Beach for a swim.
SPEAKER_03 (17:00):
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:01):
Keeping the sand out of your new electric car.
SPEAKER_03 (17:04):
Yeah, it does sound pretty.
It is a bit special, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:07):
But it's my reality.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Exactly.
And when you're in the middle ofit, I think what you're saying
is that it it it two thingshelped.
Number one was the ability tolaugh at it, and the second was
the wine.
And your friend, Rowena.
SPEAKER_03 (17:20):
No, also on the beach.
On the beach.
That was my point.
I knew there was a there wasthat on the beach.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
The kindness of strangers.
SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
I'm relying upon the kindness of strangers.
On the beach, we were alsolaughing, and there is that
collective experience oflaughter.
So back to the notion, I guess,of social change, comedy and
social change, which is back tomy book.
I've really diverted us thenwith the dog story.
Sorry, everybody, but it's quitea good story, don't you?
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
Actually, the the the the story that you child
just told was very similar tothe story, the the opening, you
know, the opening scene of uhWhy Smart Women Buy the Lies.
Yeah.
When when your protagonist is uhis questioning why being a smart
woman she chose to to buy alarge caramel grudel.
SPEAKER_03 (18:05):
Yeah, that's that's exact that's exactly right.
The beginning of my book, Icouldn't get the the character
couldn't get the dog into thecar.
And you know, it was interestinghow I went from look how
wonderful and glorious thesecanine creatures are, you know,
frolicking freely in the wavesand playing with all their you
know their mates to I hate themso much and why didn't I buy a
(18:28):
small dog like a Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Yeah, bastard dogs.
SPEAKER_03 (18:31):
If I'd got a Pekaneese, I could have just
picked a Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
A Pekaneese?
SPEAKER_03 (18:35):
What are they called?
What are they called?
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
They're called brush dogs.
No, peekinees.
SPEAKER_03 (18:42):
What?
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
They're they're peekinees.
SPEAKER_03 (18:44):
Aren't they Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Pekineese?
What?
Pekane's.
SPEAKER_03 (18:47):
Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
They're Pekineese dogs.
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Yeah.
But they're not Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_03 (18:52):
I've always called them Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Pekinees.
Like Pic.
SPEAKER_03 (18:56):
Like a p a Pekinese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
No, no, no, they're dogs from Peking.
SPEAKER_03 (18:59):
Oh, are they?
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
From Peking.
That's why they are Pekineesedogs.
SPEAKER_03 (19:02):
I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
I think I think it's true.
SPEAKER_03 (19:05):
Okay.
Anyway, to my point, I'd wishedfrequently when they're
presenting me with theseproblems that I had two
peekin's.
Uh-huh.
I could pick them up under oneone arm each, one hand each, and
shove them in water.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
And they're sohum in the sink.
And the fur wouldn't collect,you know, the fur's not then
going to collect the the sand,like yo-yo does.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Okay, so you're full of regret for buying large sandy
dogs and you don't let itcompletely overwhelm you because
you're with a friend, you have aglass of wine.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Well I did it at the time I was pretty overwhelmed
and feeling a bit humiliatedabout my lack of control.
And I think people were lookingat me going, but maybe they
weren't looking at me going,What's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Uh spotlight effect.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Spotlight effect.
I think they were just they werequite compassionate and nice and
we laughed.
So we did a lot of laughing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
And and and and there you go, most of the people
in the world are good.
To my point.
To the point.
SPEAKER_03 (19:57):
It doesn't mean you don't have to be careful about
people who are not good.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Some people are not good, but some people, but most
people are pretty good.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
So back to the notion of humour and laughter,
and let's let's talk about it inthe role of social change.
Because that was my thing on mybook.
I wanted social change.
I wanted people to understandthat to apply some critical
thinking to the vaccine questionwas a really, really good idea
and not get caught up inconspiracy theories.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Can I tell you a little bit of research that I've
done into the um the attitude ofthe ancient philosophers around
humour?
Please do.
And laughter.
I mean, you know, we're sayingthat this is a good thing, you
know, that it's a it's veryhelpful for us to be able to
laugh at our misery.
Plato didn't think it was good,did he?
No, no, no, no.
I mean, Plato, Aristotle, theentire the the Stoics, they
thought that laughter wasactually intemperate.
(20:47):
You know, that it we that itactually represented a loss of
control.
I do think that those ancientGreeks, as fabulous as they
were, I think they probably tookthemselves a bit too seriously.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Taking yourself seriously is a very, very, very
desperately bad thing too.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and and and it could bebecause, you know, those ancient
Greek societies were so jollypatriarchal, um, and uh, you
know, all the boys were tryingto outcompete one another with
how you know meaningful and wisethey were.
And this idea that that humourwas a good thing, well, no, it's
not, because when we laugh, welose control.
Um and so so so laughter as a umas a social activity um in some
(21:27):
instances has been admired andpraised, and in other instances
it's been strongly criticized.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Well, I guess what i guess the the the underlying
question would have to be whatis the point of the humour and
the laughter?
Well because it may be cruel orit may be helpful, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Absolutely.
Um I mean I think we can cutforward to you know a couple of
thousand years from uh Aristotleand Plato to a philosopher that
to be honest I never reallyassociated with humour and
laughter, and that is the uh thenihilist, Frederick Nietzsche.
You know, you know, we we we weknow about Frederick Nietzsche.
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Isn't Nietzsche the whole existential business?
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
No, he's a nihilist.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, you know, hishis his view is that you know we
live in this, you know,mechanistic universe, you know,
nothing has any meaningwhatsoever.
Um it's just the meaning that wemake of it.
Uh, and uh you know it's it's aum it's a it's a window into
just how pointless and silly andand brutal human life can be,
(22:35):
which all sounds rather dark.
But Nietzsche actually describeswhat is one of the most
optimistic and joyful um modesof humour um that is in the
literature.
But we'll start with um thenegative one.
I mean, Nietzsche himselfrecognised that when people get
together, they can sometimeslaugh in ways that are really
cruel.
SPEAKER_03 (22:56):
Like what?
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Well, he he referred to this as the laughter of the
crowd.
So, you know, uh in the in thein the AFL in a schoolyard.
Well, okay, we can start in theschoolyard, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:06):
So like a kid falls over.
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
A kid falls over.
SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
People go, ha ha ha ha ha, loser.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
Yeah, loser, loser, loser, you know?
Uh and that happens in theplayground.
Now, unfortunately, the samedynamic was happening at
football grounds with the AFL,um, and in particular the racial
vilification of uh great playerslike Eddie Betts um and let me
find his name.
What's it who who was the greatwho was the Good Adam Good.
(23:32):
Adam Goods, yeah.
Eddie Betts.
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Are you impressed I knew that?
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
I am I am super impressed that you knew that.
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
I I came up with a sporting name.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
Yes, and uh and and Harrison's probably going to
edit it out.
SPEAKER_03 (23:44):
No, he's not.
He's gonna leave it in.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Don't we don't we need to protect your brand that
you are you know hostile to anyfootball references and things
like that?
SPEAKER_03 (23:51):
Yeah, but I'm just I'm just so marvellously
intelligent.
SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
So Eddie Betts, Adam Goods.
I mean, Adam Goods, he was booedum by crowds at games, and
people would laugh at it.
Yeah, I mean it was thismocking.
It was it was a mockinglaughter, and that's a great
example of the laughter of theherd.
It's contemptuous, it's mocking,it's superior, um, and it's not
the kind of not the not the kindof humour that creates a lot of
value for for us as a society.
SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
Horrible, horrible.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
But Nietzsche contrasts this laughter of the
herd with the laughter of theheights.
SPEAKER_03 (24:23):
Um hang on, so with that laughter of the herd, I
guess that gets into that wholearea of um sort of like a
contagion, isn't it?
Like you if you laugh cruelly atsomebody, um, because we like
the idea of being part of anidentity, you know, a team
identity, right?
Yeah, don't we?
(24:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People are desperate for anidentity and something that they
can say, I belong to this group.
SPEAKER_04 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
Right?
So if you laugh cruelly, and Imight be sitting next to you
going, I really I don't findthat funny, but because uh my
identity is tied up, it'sidentity protective cognition.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
That's right.
I mean you you only have to, youknow, imagine the last MAGA
rally that you uh that youattended or that you watched.
I mean Donald Trump isn'tmaster.
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
For anybody who doesn't live in America like we
don't, um just in case you'reyou've been living under a rock
for the last you know threeyears.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
Donald Trump's you know, make America great.
SPEAKER_03 (25:20):
Again.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
Make America great again.
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
And Maha.
Make America healthy again bynot using vaccines and not and
avoiding seed oils.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Okay, so you know there's there's lots to to laugh
at about this.
But I mean I if you if youremember Trump's um Trump's
impersonation of the um I thinkit was a cerebral palsey
reporter.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
Oh my god, that was so cruel.
SPEAKER_01 (25:41):
And everybody laughed at that.
You know.
SPEAKER_03 (25:44):
He gave them permission to.
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
And you know, and and and Trump does this um does
this black humour, you know.
Let's give the let's give lawenforcement one day to act
without without any guardrails,you know, go in and and and and
and beat up the bad guys, youknow, beat up the the enemy
within.
And again, you know, it's likethere's a there's a laughter
with that.
Um and it is, yeah,contemptuous, it's superior.
(26:09):
Um what it does is it's mockingit's mocking because it
reinforces us and them.
You know, we are better thanthem and we get to laugh at you.
So that's that's that's yourlast thing.
SPEAKER_03 (26:19):
So that's the the the sort of the the laughter of
sort of superiority, isn't it?
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Um the the laughter of the heights, as he describes
it, it's when you laugh, um, andit's kind of just like a joyful
release.
So um like what?
Like um okay, you know howsometimes when people have a
like a like a near death deathexperience, you know, they they
might have to swerve in trafficor or they you know they avoid
(26:45):
the plane crashes and they'rethe only survivor.
SPEAKER_03 (26:47):
Is that a bit dark?
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Gee, that's you know, that's way dark.
Um does that work?
When you survive something, andyou know when people laugh in
response to a traumatic event?
Um or a or a um or havingsurvived a a risky uh activity
and we laugh, Nietzsche referredto this as the laughter of the
heights.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
So let's just say you go and bungee jump.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:12):
Which I would never do because I don't want my
retinas to detach.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Yeah, okay.
But you do the the bungee jump,you've got all the tension
beforehand, away you go, you dothe jump, and then you are
laughing, you know, maniacallyat the end of the uh elastic
band after your bungee jump.
Laughter not me, because Iwouldn't so you're not gonna do
that okay, so um But you might.
Let me think.
When have I when have I seen youum do something like that?
SPEAKER_03 (27:36):
Um probably never because I don't take physical
risks.
SPEAKER_04 (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
I'll take risks like I'll do a comedy thing in front
of six hundred people.
Yes.
I'll do that sort of risk, but Iwould I don't do physical the
big the biggest riskiest thing Ido is sprush about in the
shallows in winter.
It is yeah Yeah, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
So um so so so let's just acknowledge that that there
are there are these at least twodifferent ways of using
laughter.
Number one, to be contemptuous,number two, to actually have
that joyful release that you'reyou know that you've survived,
uh, and that you know thatyou're basically dealing with
whatever life throws at you.
(28:20):
The laughter of the heights.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:22):
So how how do all these I mean, because when when
I when I think about um the mostpotent and accurant accurate
commentators of social issues,in my mind, the ones that have
the most accuracy are comedians.
SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
Oh yeah.
Oh absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
You know, they tend to be able to dig through and
now why is that and why are thatand as you and if you think
about it, what is causing themost threat to um to Trump?
Who who does he want to shutdown the most?
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
Well, I mean, when you when you're talking about
this, I think of StephenColbert, and yes, his show has
been cancelled, it will end inMarch.
SPEAKER_03 (29:01):
So if anybody's uh listening to this, it is not
either American or watchesAmerican TV in Australia.
Um Stephen Colbert is a latenight host in America, along
with Jimmy Kimmel and along withSeth Meyer and other ones.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
And and Kimmel was also taken off air um because of
you know comments that he madeabout Charlie Kirk that were in
no way inflammatory, but youcould tell that the um the
administration was was lookingfor an excuse.
There was an uproar, andKimmel's back.
SPEAKER_03 (29:31):
Okay, so what happened was you're going too
quickly on that.
So Jimmy Kimmel uh made commentsabout Charlie Kirk, who was
recently assassinated, who was aright wing supporter of Donald
Trump.
And I think that the mostdisturbing thing about this, and
which sort of helps you tounderstand the power of comedy,
is that Trump is so threatenedby these comedians that he
(29:54):
agitates for the great bigcorporations who actually own
them to.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you've got um uh SethMyers um is now getting veiled
threats in um in Trump's tweetswhere he thinks that um Seth
Myers, because of the comedyroutines that he does, he said
it's maybe illegal, which isparticularly frightening.
100% illegal.
Yeah, 100% illegal No, no, no,no, it was uh 100% unfunny or he
(30:23):
has no talent.
SPEAKER_03 (30:24):
No, no.
He said it was probably ahundred percent illegal to say
anti-Trump things.
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Probably a hundred percent.
So um so so so yes, it's gettingunder their skin.
It's getting under Trump's skin.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Um now He doesn't like being mocked.
People in positions of power umw um well, we often find, and if
you if you look at thishistorically, people in
positions of power do not likebeing mocked because what
mockery does is it takes theseriousness out of their
(30:55):
positions, it diminishes themand they don't like it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Well well actually I think it does something
something before that, and thatis it actually draws attention.
It it it draws attention to thething that that that that that
needs to be let's see, thatneeds to be evaluated.
It draws attention to it.
Um and because it's funny and wecan expect that people are gonna
(31:18):
laugh at it, then people aremuch more likely to tune in to
something that is funny.
Um the thing about all of thesecomedians, and I've gotta say,
we have to include South Park uhon the list, which is
diabolically um uh you knowcourageous and inflammatory, you
know, the size of Donald Trump'sbody parts and um you know his
(31:41):
motivation in terms of getting afew.
SPEAKER_03 (31:43):
And maybe what it does is it just it lowers um it
dis it disarms people, don't youthink?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Well it it it disarms people who who want to
say, look, we we we we shouldn'tlook at this, you know, nothing
to see here.
No um we are looking becausethis is actually funny.
Um these comedians they they doplay um uh t two games at the
same time.
Uh on one hand there are thejokes, and on the other hand is
(32:13):
the social commentary.
And you will see all of theseall of these comedians, Colbert,
Kimmel, Myers, you'll see SouthPark, um, you'll see in
Australia, you know, people likeSean McCalleth or or Kitty
Flanagan or uh and Tom Gleason,you know, we have we have
Australian comedians who are youknow obskew uh the the sacred
(32:34):
cows um and and and buildingcomedy shows on on social
commentary.
SPEAKER_03 (32:39):
Remember, so somebody like um Pete Evans, who
was a um Pete Evans, who was aMy Kitchen Rules.
My Kitchen Rules, he was a veryfamous, um very good looking
chef, charming.
Yeah, yeah.
And what happened was hecompletely lost the frigging
plot.
Like he went so far down therabbit hole of conspiracy
(33:01):
thinking that he he was firedfrom everything.
He used to write um comedybooks, not comedy books,
cookbooks.
He used to write cookbooks, andthen he wrote one that suggested
giving um babies bone brothbecause he was into the stupid
paleo diet at the time.
Anyway, that was taken off theshelves.
He's a complete lunatic now.
He's got the worst haircut.
He's got a haircut that's shavedat the side and looks like a a
(33:25):
possum has taken residence onhis head.
It's the worst haircut likeever.
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
You're the detail queen today, aren't you?
Yeah.
All all all of thesedigressions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
Yeah, but I'm right about the haircut.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
Yeah, you're absolutely right about the
haircut.
SPEAKER_03 (33:38):
Anyway, so the thing is that Pete Evans um, you know,
is now the favourite of theconspiracy theorist mob, right?
He's the favourite of theanti-vaxxers because no vaccine
is going near his temple, eventhough he fills it with whatever
else he's taking.
Also, his wife is full of Botox.
No, his wife, his girlfriend.
So, like, I don't know what'sgoing on there.
(33:58):
You know, they won't have avaccine, but they'll have
neurotoxin anyway.
So he was getting prettyinfluential, and then Tom
Gleason on Hard Quiz had anabsolute shot at him.
And I remember looking at it atthe time and going, there's the
potent response.
That is going to diminish himmore than people going online
(34:20):
debunking what he was saying.
One line from Tom Gleason thatwas mocking him was way more
influential.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And and and you know, you youthink about the the sort of the
really famous comedians who areat the top of their game.
You've got Ricky Gervais.
You've got totally, totally.
You've got David Sh DaveChappelle, um Sarah Silverman,
um Is it Nicky Nikki Trammel?
(34:47):
Nicky Gamble.
No, forget that last one.
Forget that.
Um you've got Chappelle, um,you've got Sarah Sarah
Silverman.
You said that.
I know, I was giving him acouple of you've got Silva
Silver Silverman.
You've got Michelle Wolf.
SPEAKER_03 (34:59):
Oh she's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
And um I mean, you know, Michelle Wolfe came to
prominence when she did the umthe the White House
correspondence dinner.
My goodness, how has the WhiteHouse correspondence community
been diminished in the last fewyears?
But yeah, I mean these um thecomedians they have this this
this this each way bet.
It's just a joke, but actuallytheir social commentary um is
(35:25):
extremely well thought out.
Um all of these people that wehave mentioned are without doubt
above average intelligence, youknow, they are all geniuses in
their own way with incrediblecritical thinking skills, with
incredible th critical thinkingskills, and they can they can
find the preposterous nature ofthe propositions that are coming
(35:45):
from the targets of theirhumour, uh, and they can find
ways of building them intostories, and they are
tremendously funny.
So this is how humour canactually be harnessed in order
to drive social change.
SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
Yeah, and so I think you know, we're all I think all
of us and probably all mylisteners at various times in
their lives are frustrated bysomething that is going on
socially.
Are we not?
SPEAKER_04 (36:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
There's always something on you know, in the
stratosphere where you're likenot the stratosphere, there's
always something in theenvironment and you're like, are
you kidding me?
Are you kidding me that you'reactually going to propagate that
notion?
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I I I I would like tosee the federal opposition in
Australia actually get theirtheir their their act together
so that they can be a usefulopposition and hold the
government to account.
And not just talk about t-shirtsaround the stuff that matters.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah.
So what can like what can we doas individuals?
Just individuals in ourcommunity or in maybe not just
you know, small groups, smallcommunities, how can we use
humour because what happens is Ithink we end up feeling so
powerless, especially at themoment in this current social
atmosphere when there's just somuch rubbish being spoken.
(37:03):
I mean, I've got my voicebecause I've got the podcast
where I can debunk andchallenge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what can what can listenersdo when you're frustrated?
How can you use humour tochallenge the things that are
happening in your communities?
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
I mean, is that um is that is that is that a
rhetorical?
It's not rhetorical.
It's not rhetorical.
Would you like me to have acrack at answering?
Have a crack, have a crack,you're good at having a crack.
Well, I reckon the first thingto do is to work out is to work
out it is is to think criticallyabout the way that you are
reading the situation.
And if you are going to be usinghumour, is it the humour, the
laughter of the of of of thecrowd?
(37:42):
You know, are you using humourto simply denigrate, um, to
demonstrate your superiority,you know, to create an us in
them, to remind the others justhow how how inferior they are?
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Yeah, please, if you happen to be racist and
listening, do not you do not usehumour to further your racist
notions.
I don't think anybody listeningto this is going to be racist.
Yeah.
If you are racist, go away.
SPEAKER_01 (38:05):
Well, some some there is a point of view that
we're all racist.
You know, that we are actuallyall racist.
That is the human condition.
Um tribal.
SPEAKER_03 (38:15):
Well, we challenge our things to be able to do
that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
We're tribal, don't we?
And the way that we are raisedwill turn that particular, you
know, instinct or intuition intosomething that is.
SPEAKER_03 (38:24):
I wish you hadn't said that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (38:26):
Anyway, keep going all right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
So how how how how do you want to use the humour?
Or is it the humour of actuallyjust, you know, taking our
attention to it, um,acknowledging the fact that this
really shouldn't be happening,you know, it really shouldn't be
happening that, you know,America's great institutions are
being dismantled.
It really shouldn't be happeningthat the Australian opposition
are, you know, completelyincapable of working out what it
(38:50):
is that they should be on,focusing on.
Um, this really shouldn't behappening, that my dogs are
behaving are misbehaving at thebeach and I can't get them under
control.
And when there's that whenthere's that laughter of of of
recognition, um, we're actuallylaughing about our capacity to
accept and survive those thingsas much as it is about drawing
(39:11):
attention to it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:12):
What can they do to actually affect change by using
humour?
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Well, I mean, if you're giving advice to
somebody, I think it would beimportant to establish whether
the person you were givingadvice to felt that they can be
funny.
You know, do the do they havethe writing skills, do they have
the narrative skills?
Can they tell a joke?
Yeah.
You know, a lot of people say,Oh, look, don't ask me to tell
you a joke.
I asked Harrison to tell me ajoke yesterday and his face went
completely blank.
SPEAKER_03 (39:35):
Harrison, really, disappointed.
So I mean, okay.
I can't I I'm not one for jokeseither.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Okay.
Well, yeah, but you are one fortelling funny stories.
I am.
Um, and the thing about yourfunny stories is that you always
cast yourself as someone who isum a bit out of control, you
know.
You're very self-deprecatingwith the funny stories.
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
Yes, because that b because if you're going to be
funny, then you can't look likeyou're in control all the time.
SPEAKER_04 (40:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
And also people are way more interested in our
failures.
SPEAKER_04 (40:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
Right?
Than it's it's you know, peoplethat you know I've people I've
come across in my life, andwhenever they tell you a story,
they're always the heroes oftheir own story.
And honestly, I want to go tosleep listening to them.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
So I think that the the simple piece of advice is
don't take yourself soseriously.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_03 (40:23):
I I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
And also I mean, I I I actually reckon that
Aristotle, Plato, and the Stoicstook themselves very, very
seriously.
And I think that that's why theygive humour a bad rap.
SPEAKER_03 (40:33):
But you know, if you're in a community, right,
and you're you know, likeyesterday I was down at at the
the beach, it sounds like that'sall I do.
You're a lady of leisure.
I'm not, I'm very busy.
And the man next to me, which isjust always the way, you know,
(40:53):
he was nice.
He was one of those sort ofdeeply suntanned Australian men
of a certain age with a with asort of a small dog staring at
the beach.
And he, of course, I he said,you know, something about the
beach or something, or there wasmore whales, and I said, Oh,
that'd be climate change.
He said, I don't believe inthat.
And I went, ah, yeah, of courseyou don't.
(41:15):
Because you can't see it withyour own eyes.
So do we have, you know, funnylittle I don't know, bits of
repartee?
How do we challenge that sort ofthinking with humour?
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think I think Ithink unfortunately this does
require a bit of perspective.
I'm sitting next to somebody whodoesn't think that climate
change is real, um they feelcomfortable in articulating that
perspective to an absolutestranger.
Um I can't control them or theway that they think, you know.
Isn't it funny that we sometimeshave to deal with people who are
(41:48):
just completely clueless?
And then you laugh it off.
SPEAKER_03 (41:51):
But how how do I affect change?
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Well, you don't bother affecting change with
him.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (41:56):
Um I didn't either.
No.
I thought he also looking at megoing, I'm a female of a certain
age, and he had that absolute,you know, patriarchal thing
going on.
Like, why would you challengeme?
SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
I mean, I think that what you might end up doing is
is is um is incorporating someelements of that conversation
and that gentleman into acharacter that you'll write in
in a in a in a story.
I will, and that's me.
SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
And that's me, you know, I I am a writer and I can
use this podcast as a as a as aloudspeaker for my opinions.
But I guess I'm trying to um tosay to people who don't have a
podcast and who don't write, wecan laugh at these individual
(42:40):
situations when you get sofrustrated.
But also I think we can findlike-minded people and we can
craft something out of thatthinking in some modality, don't
you think?
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
I think that if you apply critical thinking to that
process of finding humour in it,I think if you want to apply
critical thinking and someself-awareness, you will work
out whether what you are doingwith your humour is denigrating
that individual or actuallylaughing at the fact that given
the nature of humanity, thereare a whole lot of people that
we actually can't control.
We can't, but that we acceptthat.
(43:16):
Um we can't control what theydo.
Sometimes we can't control theimpact that they have on us, you
know.
I'm so discouraged about peopleand climate change, I'm just
gonna, you know, go home and andburn a whole lot of fossil
fuels.
Yeah, yeah.
It's that that wasn't terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (43:31):
But I mean, as you but I'm thinking, you know,
rather than okay, so you'velaughed up the individual, but
you understand that individual'sthinking is part of a greater
whole, so can you do somethingon social media?
Can you use a social mediaplatform to say something?
I think we feel, I think weoften feel that our voices are
(43:52):
insignificant and we are justgoing to get lost in the noise.
But I reckon it's worth having ashot.
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
Using some humour, finding a group that you that
also want to affect socialchange, joining a group and
using humor to out some of theseopinions and belief systems that
are actually causing damage toour society.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
Yeah, so so so we know that they exist.
I mean, I look there is a thereis a a good case study of of an
organization that had a verystrong social agenda.
Tell me about that.
Um so this was um this was anadvocacy group called RISE.
Um it was in the United States.
They were advocates for sexualassaults, survivors' civil
(44:36):
rights.
So the court system wasn'tterribly, you know, helpful when
it came to helping survivors ofsexual assault seek justice.
Um and what the the RISEadvocacy did was they partnered
with a brand that you may know,Funny or Die.
Absolutely.
Now, funny or die, I I actuallydo think is a um is a good
salient warning for people whoare trying to use humour, and
(44:58):
that is you have to be funny,otherwise you should be dead.
Otherwise, otherwise, yeah.
Yeah.
So so funny or die.
And there's something there'ssomething kind of really edgy
about the funny or die humour.
We have a lot of SNL, sorry,Saturday night live
performances.
Um Will Ferrell, um uh Zach UmGaraphanakis, you know, these
kind of acerbic comedians dostuff with funny or die.
(45:21):
So they used funny or die togenerate um uh video, uh comedic
video that exposed the absoluteabsurdity of the existing laws.
And that video went viral, youknow, because it was funny.
Um and also because it was aboutaddressing something in through.
It had cut through.
Yeah.
And the result of that was thatthey had about they had over a
(45:44):
hundred thousand signatures on apetition that helped pass a
sexual assault survivors bill ofrights act in the United States
legislation.
So, I mean, that was definitelya situation where they they took
on the absurdity, they made itfunny, they shared it.
A whole lot of people realizedthat there was something that
(46:04):
needed attention, and it got it.
SPEAKER_03 (46:07):
So I guess the um the upshot of all of this is
that it's often um as we sit inour lives in the middle of these
huge social waves of injusticethat are washing over us, um,
that we feel alone and unable toactually combat.
(46:30):
And I guess what we're saying isdon't feel alone.
Um, do reach out to a group ofpeople.
There will be definitely be, youknow, this is this is the upside
of the internet, and the upside,you know, maybe there's even
people that you physically knowin your community, but reach out
and see if you can craft amessage that is does have some
(46:52):
humorous aspects that willchallenge some of these um these
social elements ofdisinformation that are coming
at us.
See if you can, I don't know,get a group together, don't feel
alone.
Because you can always find agroup of people, and if nothing
else, you can laugh at the factthat you feel awful about it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:14):
Do you know I use humour in our relationship in
order to, you know, deal withthe challenges that you present
me with?
I don't do it terribly well.
SPEAKER_03 (47:22):
You've the if was that an example of it?
That's terrible.
SPEAKER_01 (47:25):
Yeah, well, no, no, no, no.
Um like um like like sometimesum It's just about me
complaining about the mess.
SPEAKER_03 (47:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you'll you'll you'll you'llbe you'll be complaining about
the mess.
And uh and sometimes complainingabout the mess is very
constructive and it you know, itdraws it to my intention.
SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
I don't want to go back into this.
We're about to finish thepodcast.
Hurry up.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
Okay.
So so so sometimes I try to makelittle jokes.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Doesn't work.
It's you're really bad at that.
Well they never land well.
All they do is irritate me.
Well, this is pretty distinct.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
I think this is going to be an ongoing story.
Um not that we'll necessarilybring it into the podcast, but
um you know, you you've justgone from the you know, get
together with a group of friendsand you know take on a social
issue.
Um but I just think um it's alsoworth looking at how we
sometimes do use uh Yes,whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (48:25):
Alright, so um Thanks so much, David, for being
joining me on the podcast.
I don't want to go back into themess again.
Okay, okay, so it's we will getgo back there if you like, but
not now.
No, I mean it it all I tell youwhat, don't leave socks around.
SPEAKER_01 (48:40):
All all I I know the outcomes that you want, and in a
in a in a clear and congruent ina clear and congruent manner,
I'm simply trying to um to coachyou on how to get the best out
of me when it comes to keepingthings tidy.
SPEAKER_03 (48:57):
Like an i like a hack.
Yeah.
Okay.
And on that note of how Davidcan coach me on how to manage
him better.
Better.
I'll leave you with that.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Actually, the stuff on Nietzschewas really good.
Okay, so good research.
All right.
Um, lovely to have you, andlovely to have you listeners
join us for this journey onhumour.
(49:18):
Um, we hope you enjoyed it.
Um, and wherever you are in theworld, stay safe, stay well,
keep your critical thinking hatson.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(49:39):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
fiction and the other 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(50:02):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in a street work, car park
in a bar, or in your own home,please, please respect that gut
feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(50:22):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,wait, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(50:42):
critical thinking out shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women see you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the why smart women podcasts.
The podcast that helps smartwomen work out why we repeatedly
make the wrong decisions and howto make better work.
From relationships, we'rechoices, finances, objectives,
and tail smoothies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good questions.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm your own.
Really bad decisions.
I've got this.
And this podcast has been aroundto save me from myself.
This podcast will give insightsinto the working of your own
brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting fromSydney, New South Wales,
(01:04):
Australia on the northernbeaches.
It is a beautiful spring day.
Sorry to show off, but it trulyis.
And later on, I'll be going downfor a swim in the ocean.
David, will you be going for aswim in the ocean?
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Oh look, I would I would very much like to
actually.
I was I was thinking just then.
You said that you werebroadcasting, aren't you?
Podcasting?
Is it is it different?
I think so.
I think I think broadcastingwould be birds being sent to a
broad range of receivingdevices, teleph televisions and
radios and things like that.
Maybe it is.
We're we're podcasting from thenorthern beaches.
Oh, we're podcasting.
Not that it matters.
(01:36):
It sort of doesn't.
Not that it matters.
I was just kind of I was curiousabout that particular thought.
SPEAKER_03 (01:42):
I get a bit vague.
Anyway, wherever you arewherever you are in the world
and welcome because we now havelisteners in Jamaica.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
Oh my goodness.
Gee, I hope the the Jamaicansare okay after the cyclone.
SPEAKER_03 (01:54):
Yes, I oh exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
I mean that looks absolutely devastating.
SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
Yeah.
Gee, guys, hope you're okaythere.
Um Hello to our listeners inTokyo and Nova Scotia.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
And Nova Scotia, Canada.
Lovely.
And and and and all those closerto home as well.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yes, hello.
Hello.
Um, so this is part two of ourpodcast on humour and the uses
of humour and you know, is islaughter handy?
And today we're going to look atit in a more uh broader sense.
So last in our last um editionwe talked about um how laughter
(02:34):
physically affects you, what itdoes to your brain, and how good
it is to be able to laugh at umlife's foibles and tribulations.
And today we're going to broadenit out a bit.
And I thought I'd s I thoughtI'd start by going back to 2021
when COVID hit.
(02:56):
Yes?
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
Well, yes, it I mean it was really 20 that it that it
that it did hit.
COVID 19.
It emerged at the end of theyear.
Oh, that's true, yes.
So so 20 into 21, yeah, it had along tail, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
And I can remember when it um when it actually
began and they talked about howlong it was going to take them
to develop a vaccine for it.
And I I remember thinking at thetime, this is awesome, because
now we're in the middle of apandemic.
(03:31):
Um this is going to be the endof all the the sort of anti-vaxx
activism.
I thought that's gonna be theend of it.
Everyone's gonna realise we'rein this really dreadful
situation, you know, the bodieswere building up in New York, it
was just all going haywire, youknow, we had to you know, we we
had to socially distance, wecouldn't leave our houses, it
(03:53):
was devastating.
And I remember thinking, well,that's great, because finally
they're gonna have to lay downand get vaccinated.
And in instead of that, whathappened, David?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, I mean, people said no.
They got worse.
I mean, some did, not everybodydid.
There, you know, uh I think theyou we have to acknowledge that
the majority of the populationactually um accepted the advice
of the scientists and followedthe rules and did what needed to
be done, and thereby containingthe the the devastating
consequences of the of thevirus.
SPEAKER_03 (04:24):
Yes, um and it's true.
We we did we did quite well.
We had very high vaccinationrates, even though they're now
dropping a bit because of thestupidity of the anti-vax
movement and the fact thatthey're still banging on about
turbo cancers and all the restof it anyway.
They're they're mad.
Anyway, so um that happened andI became infuriated about this,
(04:48):
about the lack of criticalthinking.
So, what did I do with my fury?
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Well, you you you wrote a second book.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
I wrote a first book.
SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
What what it was um Why Smart Women Make Bad
Decisions 2021?
SPEAKER_03 (05:05):
Wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:06):
I thought it was earlier than that.
Was it?
I don't know.
I could have my dates all wrong.
Ah, no, that's right.
No, yeah, uh Why Smart WomenMake Bad Decisions was published
in twenty-one.
And um yeah, Why Smart Women Buythe Lies of Twenty Three.
I am so sorry, Annie.
SPEAKER_03 (05:23):
I I don't care.
I I'm terrible with datesanyway.
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
I got that history wrong.
So yeah, you were you weretremendously frustrated by the
lack of critical thinking andyou wanted to correct that.
So did you write a you knowdusty scientific serious tree
ties on the nature of criticalthinking?
No.
No, no, no, why not?
Surely that's what was required.
SPEAKER_03 (05:43):
No, I did not.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
People needed to be corrected.
SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
Well, there's plenty of books on critical thinking,
but they're all written by menand they're all pretty dry and
academic.
And I thought, because it waspretty important that we managed
to get this point across thatpeople were making very poor
health decisions.
(06:06):
So I wrote a comedic book, WhySmart Women Make Bad Decisions.
Please, if you are listening tothis, you can um you can get the
audiobook if you're not so mucha reader.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's been the audiobook is fabulous.
It is.
I actually reckon the audiobooksare even better than the the
book experience.
But then maybe that's because ofthe way that my brain works and
I I like to listen to storiesout loud.
But the audio the audiobooks arefantastic and they are really
funny.
Some fantastic comedicperformances from the actors.
SPEAKER_03 (06:38):
So I wrote this book that was comedic.
So why would I use comedy andhumor to actually extrapolate on
something, to describesomething, to challenge
something that is so deeply,deeply important to me.
(06:58):
Why would I do that?
SPEAKER_01 (06:59):
Yeah, do you know what do you know that was
rhetorical?
SPEAKER_03 (07:02):
Please answer.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
No, well the answer to that question, um it is not
that that you thought that umthat uh you know you needed to
employ a tried and tested, youknow, technique that would
engage and transport readers,etc.
You have instincts for comedy.
You know, you wrote it that waybecause that's what you like to
(07:23):
write.
You a and and and I think thatyou you you write that way
because you know that you likewriting that way because you
know the effect that humour justhas on people.
You know, you've done lots oftheatre and um and there's
nothing like doing a great playthat's really, really funny and
having an audience.
SPEAKER_03 (07:41):
Having the wave of an audio the the the laughter
wave coming at you on stage, theripple the ripple of laughter
coming at you on stage, there isabsolutely nothing like that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's absolutely joyous, and to
know that you've kind ofcontributed in in making a you
know an audience of five hundredpeople absolutely crack up and
laugh together is tremendouslysatisfying.
Sorry, go on.
But I was gonna say, I mean,that's in the theatre.
I know that when we go aboutdesigning a uh a development
experience, a trainingprogramme, if we're looking at
(08:13):
something like performanceconversations or you know, how
to induct somebody or how to,you know, help them to overcome,
you know, psychologicalchallenges and things like that.
When we're teaching that stuff,we always dramatize in comedic
um styles.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
Right?
We know it has cut through thatthat laughter, um, if you have a
group of people laughing, thereis an automatic sort of
receptivity in the brain of agroup experience, and there's
something about a groupexperience, right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
Yeah, yeah.
When we laugh at the samethings, there's a implicit
message that we share the samevalues.
I mean, think about that.
Yeah.
Um, why do, you know, why doesan audience of five hundred
people find the same thingfunny?
Well, they all share the samevalues around, you know, people
being destabilized or peoplebeing deceptive or people being
(09:09):
caught out.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Um It's almost like a contagion as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yeah, it's a it's a it's a contagion that travels
because, again, we share thesame values, which is a very
psychologically, you know,satisfying and stabilizing
experience.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Did I tell you what happened when I took um Yo Yo
and Ryder to the surf beach?
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
Oh, you came back a bit frazzled after that.
SPEAKER_03 (09:34):
Well, well, yeah.
So uh you know, we I I havespoken before on the podcast
about the fact that Mona ValeBeach has now been designated a
dog beach, and this is pr priorto Ryder's disaster with the
Lululemon sock, yeah.
Um, which he's still recoveringfrom, and we've had to, you
know, instruct Yo-Yo not to givehim any more socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (09:57):
Because she was behind it.
Anyway, so I took them to theMonavale beach.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
They would have been very excited to arrive there.
SPEAKER_03 (10:05):
Oh, they were excited, and it was the most
glorious, abundant, you know,wonderful sort of social
experience.
They were bounding through thewaves and they just absolutely
they loved it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
There would have been at least a hundred doggies
there, I would say.
SPEAKER_03 (10:21):
Yeah, there was a lot of the doggies anyway, and
so I was there because you weresomewhere, and I was there on my
own.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
Oh.
SPEAKER_03 (10:28):
So what happened was so they're bounding through this
beautiful, and then guess to thetime where you have to clear the
beach because it's limited time.
So I've got one lead and I'vehooked one end into rider's
collar.
Now, the first thing thathappened was that the the the
clasp on the lead, right, yes,had gone crunchy because there
(10:50):
was salt and I couldn't hook iton.
SPEAKER_04 (10:52):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (10:53):
Right.
So I'm hanging on to yo-yo withmy left hand and rider with my
right hand, and I had to say tosome woman on the beach, would
you mind?
Because I do have um arthritisin my thumbs, would you mind
clipping this onto the dog?
So she said, sure.
And then she tried and she said,Oh my god, I can't.
I said, Never mind.
So then I hooked the lead, I hadyo-yo hooked, and then I
(11:16):
threaded the lead throughRyder's collar and I made my way
up the beach, right?
SPEAKER_01 (11:22):
This is a gripping amount of detail.
It's gripping, but it's correct.
SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
And then um yo-yo did a poo.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
So then I've got to stop.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
What on the on the on the on the pathway back up?
On the sand.
SPEAKER_03 (11:32):
I'm still on the sand.
Keep up, keep up.
I'm on the sand, I'm headingtowards the pathway.
It's a long way up.
I'm on the sand.
She does a poo.
I've got to stop, I've got topick that up.
So I get halfway up the beach,then Ryder turns and sees a
Labrador.
So he then runs off.
And what he does is he runs offand he runs off so quickly
(11:55):
towards the Labrador, right?
Towards the Labrador, who wasback who was back down the beach
at the and in the in near thenear the foreshore.
He runs off with such alacritythat he rips Yo-Yo's collar off
her completely.
So he then runs down the beach,he's then got the whole lead and
Yo-Yo's collar.
So I'm there, right?
I've got now as we know, Yo-Yois an escape artist.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (12:19):
And what was about to happen?
She was about to run off and Idon't know, run to Manley or
Adelaide or Perth or something.
The dog's unstoppable, right?
Yep, yep.
So I've grabbed hold of Yo Yojust by her fur and I've still
got the poo bag, right?
Yes.
I turn around and he's humpingthe Labrador.
Well, he loves Labradors.
He loves to hump Labradors.
(12:39):
And especially right, doesn'the?
SPEAKER_01 (12:41):
Yeah, well, yes.
Well, it's true.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (12:43):
I mean, I know he's your favourite dog, but he's got
a bad habit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
Okay.
Yes.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (12:47):
Yes, so he's humping a Labrador.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
And I know that the Labrador's owner probably
wouldn't have been terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (12:52):
The Labrador wasn't thought, and the owner wasn't
thought.
So then I had to say to thiscouple that were near me, can
you please hang on to the blackblack dog?
Don't let her go, there's nocollar, while I go back and get
him.
So then this nice couple held onto Yo-Yo by her fur.
I handed the girl the poo bag,she held on to that.
I ran back down the beach.
Right.
Okay.
I grab Yo-Yo off the Labrador.
(13:13):
No, uh rider off the Labrador.
So then he runs back into thesurf.
Right.
So then he's in the surf aftersome other dog's ball, and then
some owner's cranky because thatthey had that ball ownership
bullshit going on.
So then I get yo-yo out of thesurf, I go back up the beach, he
does a poo on the way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:32):
So then I've got two poo bags.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Two poo bags.
SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
I get up to two dogs.
I get up to yo-yo, I manage toget the collar back on yo-yo,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
And then he ran off again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Right.
This is a tremendous amount ofdetail.
SPEAKER_03 (13:46):
I know, but it's necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
It's interesting and necessary.
Okay, all right, all right, allright.
SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Okay, so that you've got dogs going in all
directions.
All directions.
And I'm very, very stressed.
SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
At this point, there's four people on the beach
trying to assist me to get thedogs off the beach.
Four people.
And then Rowena, my friend, shecame down with Jack, her
Labrador, because I'd been solong.
SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
Not another Labrador.
SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
And he's very prone to humping, Jack.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Did it did it cat did it cat did Jack catch
Labradors?
Sorry.
Did Jack catch Ryder's eye?
SPEAKER_03 (14:17):
Yeah.
So then Ryder ran towards Jackbecause he thought he's more
humping opportunity.
Right.
So then I get onto the stairsand then Rowena comes back down,
and at this point I can't hookeither of the class in because
they're so salt encrusted.
Okay, yes.
I get up to the top.
SPEAKER_04 (14:33):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:33):
Now the peat then I get up the top.
The dogs are covered in sand inmy beautiful new electric car,
right?
Right.
Then I go to the shower area.
Or I'm trying to get the dogsunderneath the shower.
And this other boy comes overthat had already helped me on
the beach and he said, Let mehelp you.
So I'm hanging on to Yo-Yo, andhe's trying to push Yo-Yo into
the shower stream.
And then I turned the shower on,and Yo Yo wasn't under the
(14:55):
shower, I was.
So I was then drenched.
The dogs were sand encrusted.
Yes.
I was completely drenched.
Um I and then I tried to put mytrack pants back on.
The whole thing was a disaster.
I got them back in the car, andRowena and I went and drank
wine, and I looked homeless.
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
Okay.
This is dreadful.
No, no, civilized woman shouldhave to deal with such a
disaster.
SPEAKER_03 (15:20):
I will never take those dogs to Mona Vale Beach on
my own as long as I as God is myas God is my witness, I will
never be hungry again.
As God is my witness, I willnever ever take those dogs the
beach ever again.
I hate them.
I hated them so much at thatpoint.
All right.
But then after I got in the carand we decided to go and get a
glass of wine, which I threwdown my throat, berating the
(15:43):
dogs at great lengths.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
What is this?
Is this ten o'clock in themorning?
SPEAKER_03 (15:46):
No, darling, it's five o'clock in the afternoon.
Okay, the But don't day drinkthe twilight up.
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
The twilight show.
SPEAKER_03 (15:52):
When have you ever known me to day drink?
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
I we should start.
SPEAKER_03 (15:56):
I don't I don't day drink.
I will never day drink, I don'tlike it.
Anyway, so then we got there andthen we sat there and I was
sopping wet in just I lookedhomeless.
I don't mean to laugh at thehomeless, that was mean, I would
track that.
No, I won't, it's true.
I did look homeless.
And we sat there with me hatingon the dogs and we laughed a lot
about that.
That's all I've got to say aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (16:16):
Okay, so okay, and and the moral of the story is go
on.
I don't know you're telling thestory.
It's your moral.
SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
Well, yeah, I mean it's back to that point, and we
are going to I had to tell thatstory though, because I had to
get it off my chest.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
If you don't if you don't laugh, you'll cry.
SPEAKER_03 (16:31):
Well, I could've it's a bit like the the um the
bush turkey on the on the on umThe brush turkey.
Bush.
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
Bush, okay.
Bush turkey.
SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
If you don't, you know, laugh at this situation,
then you get upset.
And I could have got reallyupset because I was very cold
and wet and and the dogs wereawful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
Yeah.
But yeah.
I'm glad you didn't.
It's a bit of a first-worldproblem.
You know, your your dog'srunning off when you take them
to Montevideo Beach for a swim.
SPEAKER_03 (17:00):
Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:01):
Keeping the sand out of your new electric car.
SPEAKER_03 (17:04):
Yeah, it does sound pretty.
It is a bit special, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:07):
But it's my reality.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Exactly.
And when you're in the middle ofit, I think what you're saying
is that it it it two thingshelped.
Number one was the ability tolaugh at it, and the second was
the wine.
And your friend, Rowena.
SPEAKER_03 (17:20):
No, also on the beach.
On the beach.
That was my point.
I knew there was a there wasthat on the beach.
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
The kindness of strangers.
SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
I'm relying upon the kindness of strangers.
On the beach, we were alsolaughing, and there is that
collective experience oflaughter.
So back to the notion, I guess,of social change, comedy and
social change, which is back tomy book.
I've really diverted us thenwith the dog story.
Sorry, everybody, but it's quitea good story, don't you?
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
Actually, the the the the story that you child
just told was very similar tothe story, the the opening, you
know, the opening scene of uhWhy Smart Women Buy the Lies.
Yeah.
When when your protagonist is uhis questioning why being a smart
woman she chose to to buy alarge caramel grudel.
SPEAKER_03 (18:05):
Yeah, that's that's exact that's exactly right.
The beginning of my book, Icouldn't get the the character
couldn't get the dog into thecar.
And you know, it was interestinghow I went from look how
wonderful and glorious thesecanine creatures are, you know,
frolicking freely in the wavesand playing with all their you
know their mates to I hate themso much and why didn't I buy a
(18:28):
small dog like a Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Yeah, bastard dogs.
SPEAKER_03 (18:31):
If I'd got a Pekaneese, I could have just
picked a Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
A Pekaneese?
SPEAKER_03 (18:35):
What are they called?
What are they called?
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
They're called brush dogs.
No, peekinees.
SPEAKER_03 (18:42):
What?
SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
They're they're peekinees.
SPEAKER_03 (18:44):
Aren't they Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01 (18:45):
Pekineese?
What?
Pekane's.
SPEAKER_03 (18:47):
Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
They're Pekineese dogs.
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
Yeah.
But they're not Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_03 (18:52):
I've always called them Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Pekinees.
Like Pic.
SPEAKER_03 (18:56):
Like a p a Pekinese.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
No, no, no, they're dogs from Peking.
SPEAKER_03 (18:59):
Oh, are they?
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
From Peking.
That's why they are Pekineesedogs.
SPEAKER_03 (19:02):
I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
I think I think it's true.
SPEAKER_03 (19:05):
Okay.
Anyway, to my point, I'd wishedfrequently when they're
presenting me with theseproblems that I had two
peekin's.
Uh-huh.
I could pick them up under oneone arm each, one hand each, and
shove them in water.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
Yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_03 (19:18):
And they're sohum in the sink.
And the fur wouldn't collect,you know, the fur's not then
going to collect the the sand,like yo-yo does.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
Okay, so you're full of regret for buying large sandy
dogs and you don't let itcompletely overwhelm you because
you're with a friend, you have aglass of wine.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Well I did it at the time I was pretty overwhelmed
and feeling a bit humiliatedabout my lack of control.
And I think people were lookingat me going, but maybe they
weren't looking at me going,What's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01 (19:44):
Uh spotlight effect.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Spotlight effect.
I think they were just they werequite compassionate and nice and
we laughed.
So we did a lot of laughing.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
And and and and there you go, most of the people
in the world are good.
To my point.
To the point.
SPEAKER_03 (19:57):
It doesn't mean you don't have to be careful about
people who are not good.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Some people are not good, but some people, but most
people are pretty good.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
So back to the notion of humour and laughter,
and let's let's talk about it inthe role of social change.
Because that was my thing on mybook.
I wanted social change.
I wanted people to understandthat to apply some critical
thinking to the vaccine questionwas a really, really good idea
and not get caught up inconspiracy theories.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Can I tell you a little bit of research that I've
done into the um the attitude ofthe ancient philosophers around
humour?
Please do.
And laughter.
I mean, you know, we're sayingthat this is a good thing, you
know, that it's a it's veryhelpful for us to be able to
laugh at our misery.
Plato didn't think it was good,did he?
No, no, no, no.
I mean, Plato, Aristotle, theentire the the Stoics, they
thought that laughter wasactually intemperate.
(20:47):
You know, that it we that itactually represented a loss of
control.
I do think that those ancientGreeks, as fabulous as they
were, I think they probably tookthemselves a bit too seriously.
SPEAKER_02 (20:56):
Taking yourself seriously is a very, very, very
desperately bad thing too.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and and and it could bebecause, you know, those ancient
Greek societies were so jollypatriarchal, um, and uh, you
know, all the boys were tryingto outcompete one another with
how you know meaningful and wisethey were.
And this idea that that humourwas a good thing, well, no, it's
not, because when we laugh, welose control.
Um and so so so laughter as a umas a social activity um in some
(21:27):
instances has been admired andpraised, and in other instances
it's been strongly criticized.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Well, I guess what i guess the the the underlying
question would have to be whatis the point of the humour and
the laughter?
Well because it may be cruel orit may be helpful, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Absolutely.
Um I mean I think we can cutforward to you know a couple of
thousand years from uh Aristotleand Plato to a philosopher that
to be honest I never reallyassociated with humour and
laughter, and that is the uh thenihilist, Frederick Nietzsche.
You know, you know, we we we weknow about Frederick Nietzsche.
SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Isn't Nietzsche the whole existential business?
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
No, he's a nihilist.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, you know, hishis his view is that you know we
live in this, you know,mechanistic universe, you know,
nothing has any meaningwhatsoever.
Um it's just the meaning that wemake of it.
Uh, and uh you know it's it's aum it's a it's a window into
just how pointless and silly andand brutal human life can be,
(22:35):
which all sounds rather dark.
But Nietzsche actually describeswhat is one of the most
optimistic and joyful um modesof humour um that is in the
literature.
But we'll start with um thenegative one.
I mean, Nietzsche himselfrecognised that when people get
together, they can sometimeslaugh in ways that are really
cruel.
SPEAKER_03 (22:56):
Like what?
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Well, he he referred to this as the laughter of the
crowd.
So, you know, uh in the in thein the AFL in a schoolyard.
Well, okay, we can start in theschoolyard, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:06):
So like a kid falls over.
SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
A kid falls over.
SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
People go, ha ha ha ha ha, loser.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
Yeah, loser, loser, loser, you know?
Uh and that happens in theplayground.
Now, unfortunately, the samedynamic was happening at
football grounds with the AFL,um, and in particular the racial
vilification of uh great playerslike Eddie Betts um and let me
find his name.
What's it who who was the greatwho was the Good Adam Good.
(23:32):
Adam Goods, yeah.
Eddie Betts.
SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Are you impressed I knew that?
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
I am I am super impressed that you knew that.
SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
I I came up with a sporting name.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
Yes, and uh and and Harrison's probably going to
edit it out.
SPEAKER_03 (23:44):
No, he's not.
He's gonna leave it in.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
Don't we don't we need to protect your brand that
you are you know hostile to anyfootball references and things
like that?
SPEAKER_03 (23:51):
Yeah, but I'm just I'm just so marvellously
intelligent.
SPEAKER_01 (23:54):
So Eddie Betts, Adam Goods.
I mean, Adam Goods, he was booedum by crowds at games, and
people would laugh at it.
Yeah, I mean it was thismocking.
It was it was a mockinglaughter, and that's a great
example of the laughter of theherd.
It's contemptuous, it's mocking,it's superior, um, and it's not
the kind of not the not the kindof humour that creates a lot of
value for for us as a society.
SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
Horrible, horrible.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
But Nietzsche contrasts this laughter of the
herd with the laughter of theheights.
SPEAKER_03 (24:23):
Um hang on, so with that laughter of the herd, I
guess that gets into that wholearea of um sort of like a
contagion, isn't it?
Like you if you laugh cruelly atsomebody, um, because we like
the idea of being part of anidentity, you know, a team
identity, right?
Yeah, don't we?
(24:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People are desperate for anidentity and something that they
can say, I belong to this group.
SPEAKER_04 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:49):
Right?
So if you laugh cruelly, and Imight be sitting next to you
going, I really I don't findthat funny, but because uh my
identity is tied up, it'sidentity protective cognition.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
That's right.
I mean you you only have to, youknow, imagine the last MAGA
rally that you uh that youattended or that you watched.
I mean Donald Trump isn'tmaster.
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
For anybody who doesn't live in America like we
don't, um just in case you'reyou've been living under a rock
for the last you know threeyears.
SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
Donald Trump's you know, make America great.
SPEAKER_03 (25:20):
Again.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
Make America great again.
SPEAKER_03 (25:22):
And Maha.
Make America healthy again bynot using vaccines and not and
avoiding seed oils.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Okay, so you know there's there's lots to to laugh
at about this.
But I mean I if you if youremember Trump's um Trump's
impersonation of the um I thinkit was a cerebral palsey
reporter.
SPEAKER_02 (25:40):
Oh my god, that was so cruel.
SPEAKER_01 (25:41):
And everybody laughed at that.
You know.
SPEAKER_03 (25:44):
He gave them permission to.
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
And you know, and and and Trump does this um does
this black humour, you know.
Let's give the let's give lawenforcement one day to act
without without any guardrails,you know, go in and and and and
and beat up the bad guys, youknow, beat up the the enemy
within.
And again, you know, it's likethere's a there's a laughter
with that.
Um and it is, yeah,contemptuous, it's superior.
(26:09):
Um what it does is it's mockingit's mocking because it
reinforces us and them.
You know, we are better thanthem and we get to laugh at you.
So that's that's that's yourlast thing.
SPEAKER_03 (26:19):
So that's the the the sort of the the laughter of
sort of superiority, isn't it?
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Um the the laughter of the heights, as he describes
it, it's when you laugh, um, andit's kind of just like a joyful
release.
So um like what?
Like um okay, you know howsometimes when people have a
like a like a near death deathexperience, you know, they they
might have to swerve in trafficor or they you know they avoid
(26:45):
the plane crashes and they'rethe only survivor.
SPEAKER_03 (26:47):
Is that a bit dark?
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Gee, that's you know, that's way dark.
Um does that work?
When you survive something, andyou know when people laugh in
response to a traumatic event?
Um or a or a um or havingsurvived a a risky uh activity
and we laugh, Nietzsche referredto this as the laughter of the
heights.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
So let's just say you go and bungee jump.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:12):
Which I would never do because I don't want my
retinas to detach.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Yeah, okay.
But you do the the bungee jump,you've got all the tension
beforehand, away you go, you dothe jump, and then you are
laughing, you know, maniacallyat the end of the uh elastic
band after your bungee jump.
Laughter not me, because Iwouldn't so you're not gonna do
that okay, so um But you might.
Let me think.
When have I when have I seen youum do something like that?
SPEAKER_03 (27:36):
Um probably never because I don't take physical
risks.
SPEAKER_04 (27:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:43):
I'll take risks like I'll do a comedy thing in front
of six hundred people.
Yes.
I'll do that sort of risk, but Iwould I don't do physical the
big the biggest riskiest thing Ido is sprush about in the
shallows in winter.
It is yeah Yeah, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
So um so so so let's just acknowledge that that there
are there are these at least twodifferent ways of using
laughter.
Number one, to be contemptuous,number two, to actually have
that joyful release that you'reyou know that you've survived,
uh, and that you know thatyou're basically dealing with
whatever life throws at you.
(28:20):
The laughter of the heights.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:22):
So how how do all these I mean, because when when
I when I think about um the mostpotent and accurant accurate
commentators of social issues,in my mind, the ones that have
the most accuracy are comedians.
SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
Oh yeah.
Oh absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (28:41):
You know, they tend to be able to dig through and
now why is that and why are thatand as you and if you think
about it, what is causing themost threat to um to Trump?
Who who does he want to shutdown the most?
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
Well, I mean, when you when you're talking about
this, I think of StephenColbert, and yes, his show has
been cancelled, it will end inMarch.
SPEAKER_03 (29:01):
So if anybody's uh listening to this, it is not
either American or watchesAmerican TV in Australia.
Um Stephen Colbert is a latenight host in America, along
with Jimmy Kimmel and along withSeth Meyer and other ones.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
And and Kimmel was also taken off air um because of
you know comments that he madeabout Charlie Kirk that were in
no way inflammatory, but youcould tell that the um the
administration was was lookingfor an excuse.
There was an uproar, andKimmel's back.
SPEAKER_03 (29:31):
Okay, so what happened was you're going too
quickly on that.
So Jimmy Kimmel uh made commentsabout Charlie Kirk, who was
recently assassinated, who was aright wing supporter of Donald
Trump.
And I think that the mostdisturbing thing about this, and
which sort of helps you tounderstand the power of comedy,
is that Trump is so threatenedby these comedians that he
(29:54):
agitates for the great bigcorporations who actually own
them to.
SPEAKER_01 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so you've got um uh SethMyers um is now getting veiled
threats in um in Trump's tweetswhere he thinks that um Seth
Myers, because of the comedyroutines that he does, he said
it's maybe illegal, which isparticularly frightening.
100% illegal.
Yeah, 100% illegal No, no, no,no, it was uh 100% unfunny or he
(30:23):
has no talent.
SPEAKER_03 (30:24):
No, no.
He said it was probably ahundred percent illegal to say
anti-Trump things.
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Probably a hundred percent.
So um so so so yes, it's gettingunder their skin.
It's getting under Trump's skin.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Um now He doesn't like being mocked.
People in positions of power umw um well, we often find, and if
you if you look at thishistorically, people in
positions of power do not likebeing mocked because what
mockery does is it takes theseriousness out of their
(30:55):
positions, it diminishes themand they don't like it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Well well actually I think it does something
something before that, and thatis it actually draws attention.
It it it draws attention to thething that that that that that
needs to be let's see, thatneeds to be evaluated.
It draws attention to it.
Um and because it's funny and wecan expect that people are gonna
(31:18):
laugh at it, then people aremuch more likely to tune in to
something that is funny.
Um the thing about all of thesecomedians, and I've gotta say,
we have to include South Park uhon the list, which is
diabolically um uh you knowcourageous and inflammatory, you
know, the size of Donald Trump'sbody parts and um you know his
(31:41):
motivation in terms of getting afew.
SPEAKER_03 (31:43):
And maybe what it does is it just it lowers um it
dis it disarms people, don't youthink?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Well it it it disarms people who who want to
say, look, we we we we shouldn'tlook at this, you know, nothing
to see here.
No um we are looking becausethis is actually funny.
Um these comedians they they doplay um uh t two games at the
same time.
Uh on one hand there are thejokes, and on the other hand is
(32:13):
the social commentary.
And you will see all of theseall of these comedians, Colbert,
Kimmel, Myers, you'll see SouthPark, um, you'll see in
Australia, you know, people likeSean McCalleth or or Kitty
Flanagan or uh and Tom Gleason,you know, we have we have
Australian comedians who are youknow obskew uh the the sacred
(32:34):
cows um and and and buildingcomedy shows on on social
commentary.
SPEAKER_03 (32:39):
Remember, so somebody like um Pete Evans, who
was a um Pete Evans, who was aMy Kitchen Rules.
My Kitchen Rules, he was a veryfamous, um very good looking
chef, charming.
Yeah, yeah.
And what happened was hecompletely lost the frigging
plot.
Like he went so far down therabbit hole of conspiracy
(33:01):
thinking that he he was firedfrom everything.
He used to write um comedybooks, not comedy books,
cookbooks.
He used to write cookbooks, andthen he wrote one that suggested
giving um babies bone brothbecause he was into the stupid
paleo diet at the time.
Anyway, that was taken off theshelves.
He's a complete lunatic now.
He's got the worst haircut.
He's got a haircut that's shavedat the side and looks like a a
(33:25):
possum has taken residence onhis head.
It's the worst haircut likeever.
SPEAKER_01 (33:30):
You're the detail queen today, aren't you?
Yeah.
All all all of thesedigressions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
Yeah, but I'm right about the haircut.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
Yeah, you're absolutely right about the
haircut.
SPEAKER_03 (33:38):
Anyway, so the thing is that Pete Evans um, you know,
is now the favourite of theconspiracy theorist mob, right?
He's the favourite of theanti-vaxxers because no vaccine
is going near his temple, eventhough he fills it with whatever
else he's taking.
Also, his wife is full of Botox.
No, his wife, his girlfriend.
So, like, I don't know what'sgoing on there.
(33:58):
You know, they won't have avaccine, but they'll have
neurotoxin anyway.
So he was getting prettyinfluential, and then Tom
Gleason on Hard Quiz had anabsolute shot at him.
And I remember looking at it atthe time and going, there's the
potent response.
That is going to diminish himmore than people going online
(34:20):
debunking what he was saying.
One line from Tom Gleason thatwas mocking him was way more
influential.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And and and you know, you youthink about the the sort of the
really famous comedians who areat the top of their game.
You've got Ricky Gervais.
You've got totally, totally.
You've got David Sh DaveChappelle, um Sarah Silverman,
um Is it Nicky Nikki Trammel?
(34:47):
Nicky Gamble.
No, forget that last one.
Forget that.
Um you've got Chappelle, um,you've got Sarah Sarah
Silverman.
You said that.
I know, I was giving him acouple of you've got Silva
Silver Silverman.
You've got Michelle Wolf.
SPEAKER_03 (34:59):
Oh she's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
And um I mean, you know, Michelle Wolfe came to
prominence when she did the umthe the White House
correspondence dinner.
My goodness, how has the WhiteHouse correspondence community
been diminished in the last fewyears?
But yeah, I mean these um thecomedians they have this this
this this each way bet.
It's just a joke, but actuallytheir social commentary um is
(35:25):
extremely well thought out.
Um all of these people that wehave mentioned are without doubt
above average intelligence, youknow, they are all geniuses in
their own way with incrediblecritical thinking skills, with
incredible th critical thinkingskills, and they can they can
find the preposterous nature ofthe propositions that are coming
(35:45):
from the targets of theirhumour, uh, and they can find
ways of building them intostories, and they are
tremendously funny.
So this is how humour canactually be harnessed in order
to drive social change.
SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
Yeah, and so I think you know, we're all I think all
of us and probably all mylisteners at various times in
their lives are frustrated bysomething that is going on
socially.
Are we not?
SPEAKER_04 (36:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
There's always something on you know, in the
stratosphere where you're likenot the stratosphere, there's
always something in theenvironment and you're like, are
you kidding me?
Are you kidding me that you'reactually going to propagate that
notion?
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I I I I would like tosee the federal opposition in
Australia actually get theirtheir their their act together
so that they can be a usefulopposition and hold the
government to account.
And not just talk about t-shirtsaround the stuff that matters.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah.
So what can like what can we doas individuals?
Just individuals in ourcommunity or in maybe not just
you know, small groups, smallcommunities, how can we use
humour because what happens is Ithink we end up feeling so
powerless, especially at themoment in this current social
atmosphere when there's just somuch rubbish being spoken.
(37:03):
I mean, I've got my voicebecause I've got the podcast
where I can debunk andchallenge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But what can what can listenersdo when you're frustrated?
How can you use humour tochallenge the things that are
happening in your communities?
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
I mean, is that um is that is that is that a
rhetorical?
It's not rhetorical.
It's not rhetorical.
Would you like me to have acrack at answering?
Have a crack, have a crack,you're good at having a crack.
Well, I reckon the first thingto do is to work out is to work
out it is is to think criticallyabout the way that you are
reading the situation.
And if you are going to be usinghumour, is it the humour, the
laughter of the of of of thecrowd?
(37:42):
You know, are you using humourto simply denigrate, um, to
demonstrate your superiority,you know, to create an us in
them, to remind the others justhow how how inferior they are?
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Yeah, please, if you happen to be racist and
listening, do not you do not usehumour to further your racist
notions.
I don't think anybody listeningto this is going to be racist.
Yeah.
If you are racist, go away.
SPEAKER_01 (38:05):
Well, some some there is a point of view that
we're all racist.
You know, that we are actuallyall racist.
That is the human condition.
Um tribal.
SPEAKER_03 (38:15):
Well, we challenge our things to be able to do
that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:16):
We're tribal, don't we?
And the way that we are raisedwill turn that particular, you
know, instinct or intuition intosomething that is.
SPEAKER_03 (38:24):
I wish you hadn't said that.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (38:26):
Anyway, keep going all right.
SPEAKER_01 (38:28):
So how how how how do you want to use the humour?
Or is it the humour of actuallyjust, you know, taking our
attention to it, um,acknowledging the fact that this
really shouldn't be happening,you know, it really shouldn't be
happening that, you know,America's great institutions are
being dismantled.
It really shouldn't be happeningthat the Australian opposition
are, you know, completelyincapable of working out what it
(38:50):
is that they should be on,focusing on.
Um, this really shouldn't behappening, that my dogs are
behaving are misbehaving at thebeach and I can't get them under
control.
And when there's that whenthere's that laughter of of of
recognition, um, we're actuallylaughing about our capacity to
accept and survive those thingsas much as it is about drawing
(39:11):
attention to it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:12):
What can they do to actually affect change by using
humour?
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Well, I mean, if you're giving advice to
somebody, I think it would beimportant to establish whether
the person you were givingadvice to felt that they can be
funny.
You know, do the do they havethe writing skills, do they have
the narrative skills?
Can they tell a joke?
Yeah.
You know, a lot of people say,Oh, look, don't ask me to tell
you a joke.
I asked Harrison to tell me ajoke yesterday and his face went
completely blank.
SPEAKER_03 (39:35):
Harrison, really, disappointed.
So I mean, okay.
I can't I I'm not one for jokeseither.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Okay.
Well, yeah, but you are one fortelling funny stories.
I am.
Um, and the thing about yourfunny stories is that you always
cast yourself as someone who isum a bit out of control, you
know.
You're very self-deprecatingwith the funny stories.
SPEAKER_03 (39:54):
Yes, because that b because if you're going to be
funny, then you can't look likeyou're in control all the time.
SPEAKER_04 (40:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
And also people are way more interested in our
failures.
SPEAKER_04 (40:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
Right?
Than it's it's you know, peoplethat you know I've people I've
come across in my life, andwhenever they tell you a story,
they're always the heroes oftheir own story.
And honestly, I want to go tosleep listening to them.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
So I think that the the simple piece of advice is
don't take yourself soseriously.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_03 (40:23):
I I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
And also I mean, I I I actually reckon that
Aristotle, Plato, and the Stoicstook themselves very, very
seriously.
And I think that that's why theygive humour a bad rap.
SPEAKER_03 (40:33):
But you know, if you're in a community, right,
and you're you know, likeyesterday I was down at at the
the beach, it sounds like that'sall I do.
You're a lady of leisure.
I'm not, I'm very busy.
And the man next to me, which isjust always the way, you know,
(40:53):
he was nice.
He was one of those sort ofdeeply suntanned Australian men
of a certain age with a with asort of a small dog staring at
the beach.
And he, of course, I he said,you know, something about the
beach or something, or there wasmore whales, and I said, Oh,
that'd be climate change.
He said, I don't believe inthat.
And I went, ah, yeah, of courseyou don't.
(41:15):
Because you can't see it withyour own eyes.
So do we have, you know, funnylittle I don't know, bits of
repartee?
How do we challenge that sort ofthinking with humour?
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think I think Ithink unfortunately this does
require a bit of perspective.
I'm sitting next to somebody whodoesn't think that climate
change is real, um they feelcomfortable in articulating that
perspective to an absolutestranger.
Um I can't control them or theway that they think, you know.
Isn't it funny that we sometimeshave to deal with people who are
(41:48):
just completely clueless?
And then you laugh it off.
SPEAKER_03 (41:51):
But how how do I affect change?
SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Well, you don't bother affecting change with
him.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (41:56):
Um I didn't either.
No.
I thought he also looking at megoing, I'm a female of a certain
age, and he had that absolute,you know, patriarchal thing
going on.
Like, why would you challengeme?
SPEAKER_01 (42:08):
I mean, I think that what you might end up doing is
is is um is incorporating someelements of that conversation
and that gentleman into acharacter that you'll write in
in a in a in a story.
I will, and that's me.
SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
And that's me, you know, I I am a writer and I can
use this podcast as a as a as aloudspeaker for my opinions.
But I guess I'm trying to um tosay to people who don't have a
podcast and who don't write, wecan laugh at these individual
(42:40):
situations when you get sofrustrated.
But also I think we can findlike-minded people and we can
craft something out of thatthinking in some modality, don't
you think?
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
I think that if you apply critical thinking to that
process of finding humour in it,I think if you want to apply
critical thinking and someself-awareness, you will work
out whether what you are doingwith your humour is denigrating
that individual or actuallylaughing at the fact that given
the nature of humanity, thereare a whole lot of people that
we actually can't control.
We can't, but that we acceptthat.
(43:16):
Um we can't control what theydo.
Sometimes we can't control theimpact that they have on us, you
know.
I'm so discouraged about peopleand climate change, I'm just
gonna, you know, go home and andburn a whole lot of fossil
fuels.
Yeah, yeah.
It's that that wasn't terrible.
SPEAKER_03 (43:31):
But I mean, as you but I'm thinking, you know,
rather than okay, so you'velaughed up the individual, but
you understand that individual'sthinking is part of a greater
whole, so can you do somethingon social media?
Can you use a social mediaplatform to say something?
I think we feel, I think weoften feel that our voices are
(43:52):
insignificant and we are justgoing to get lost in the noise.
But I reckon it's worth having ashot.
SPEAKER_01 (43:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
Using some humour, finding a group that you that
also want to affect socialchange, joining a group and
using humor to out some of theseopinions and belief systems that
are actually causing damage toour society.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
Yeah, so so so we know that they exist.
I mean, I look there is a thereis a a good case study of of an
organization that had a verystrong social agenda.
Tell me about that.
Um so this was um this was anadvocacy group called RISE.
Um it was in the United States.
They were advocates for sexualassaults, survivors' civil
(44:36):
rights.
So the court system wasn'tterribly, you know, helpful when
it came to helping survivors ofsexual assault seek justice.
Um and what the the RISEadvocacy did was they partnered
with a brand that you may know,Funny or Die.
Absolutely.
Now, funny or die, I I actuallydo think is a um is a good
salient warning for people whoare trying to use humour, and
(44:58):
that is you have to be funny,otherwise you should be dead.
Otherwise, otherwise, yeah.
Yeah.
So so funny or die.
And there's something there'ssomething kind of really edgy
about the funny or die humour.
We have a lot of SNL, sorry,Saturday night live
performances.
Um Will Ferrell, um uh Zach UmGaraphanakis, you know, these
kind of acerbic comedians dostuff with funny or die.
(45:21):
So they used funny or die togenerate um uh video, uh comedic
video that exposed the absoluteabsurdity of the existing laws.
And that video went viral, youknow, because it was funny.
Um and also because it was aboutaddressing something in through.
It had cut through.
Yeah.
And the result of that was thatthey had about they had over a
(45:44):
hundred thousand signatures on apetition that helped pass a
sexual assault survivors bill ofrights act in the United States
legislation.
So, I mean, that was definitelya situation where they they took
on the absurdity, they made itfunny, they shared it.
A whole lot of people realizedthat there was something that
(46:04):
needed attention, and it got it.
SPEAKER_03 (46:07):
So I guess the um the upshot of all of this is
that it's often um as we sit inour lives in the middle of these
huge social waves of injusticethat are washing over us, um,
that we feel alone and unable toactually combat.
(46:30):
And I guess what we're saying isdon't feel alone.
Um, do reach out to a group ofpeople.
There will be definitely be, youknow, this is this is the upside
of the internet, and the upside,you know, maybe there's even
people that you physically knowin your community, but reach out
and see if you can craft amessage that is does have some
(46:52):
humorous aspects that willchallenge some of these um these
social elements ofdisinformation that are coming
at us.
See if you can, I don't know,get a group together, don't feel
alone.
Because you can always find agroup of people, and if nothing
else, you can laugh at the factthat you feel awful about it.
SPEAKER_01 (47:14):
Do you know I use humour in our relationship in
order to, you know, deal withthe challenges that you present
me with?
I don't do it terribly well.
SPEAKER_03 (47:22):
You've the if was that an example of it?
That's terrible.
SPEAKER_01 (47:25):
Yeah, well, no, no, no, no.
Um like um like like sometimesum It's just about me
complaining about the mess.
SPEAKER_03 (47:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you'll you'll you'll you'llbe you'll be complaining about
the mess.
And uh and sometimes complainingabout the mess is very
constructive and it you know, itdraws it to my intention.
SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
I don't want to go back into this.
We're about to finish thepodcast.
Hurry up.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
Okay.
So so so sometimes I try to makelittle jokes.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Doesn't work.
It's you're really bad at that.
Well they never land well.
All they do is irritate me.
Well, this is pretty distinct.
SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
I think this is going to be an ongoing story.
Um not that we'll necessarilybring it into the podcast, but
um you know, you you've justgone from the you know, get
together with a group of friendsand you know take on a social
issue.
Um but I just think um it's alsoworth looking at how we
sometimes do use uh Yes,whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (48:25):
Alright, so um Thanks so much, David, for being
joining me on the podcast.
I don't want to go back into themess again.
Okay, okay, so it's we will getgo back there if you like, but
not now.
No, I mean it it all I tell youwhat, don't leave socks around.
SPEAKER_01 (48:40):
All all I I know the outcomes that you want, and in a
in a in a clear and congruent ina clear and congruent manner,
I'm simply trying to um to coachyou on how to get the best out
of me when it comes to keepingthings tidy.
SPEAKER_03 (48:57):
Like an i like a hack.
Yeah.
Okay.
And on that note of how Davidcan coach me on how to manage
him better.
Better.
I'll leave you with that.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Actually, the stuff on Nietzschewas really good.
Okay, so good research.
All right.
Um, lovely to have you, andlovely to have you listeners
join us for this journey onhumour.
(49:18):
Um, we hope you enjoyed it.
Um, and wherever you are in theworld, stay safe, stay well,
keep your critical thinking hatson.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
(49:39):
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
fiction and the other 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
(50:02):
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in a street work, car park
in a bar, or in your own home,please, please respect that gut
feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
(50:22):
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,wait, and review the podcast,
and share it with your fellowsmart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
(50:42):
critical thinking out shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women see you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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