October 29, 2025 • 29 mins
We turn a chaotic week—stolen bikes, a shredded laptop, and a dog’s sock surgery—into a guide to better decisions by swapping blame for causation and drama for clarity. We unpack coercive control, how to warn a friend without lecturing, and why scepticism is a safety tool against health misinformation.
• shifting from blame to causation to regain control
• spotting early coercive control masked as care
• using calm, specific language to influence a friend
• jealousy as insecurity not love
• metacognition as a buffer against emotional decisions
• health misinformation on social media and why scepticism matters
• practical sceptic habits for medical advice
• update on Ryder’s surgery and recovery
Please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. And don't forget to subscribe when we're going to do the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
I'm your host, Anima Cabin, andas a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not at all.
I don't think I did go to findit.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
I am broadcasting today fromAustralia, specifically in DY on
the northern beaches of Sydney,New South Wales, Australia, and
(01:08):
it is weirdly freezing cold andraining.
So it got hot and now it's coldagain, which is really odd, but
that's spring for you, I guess.
Um Hello David.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
You're lucky to have me here this morning, you know.
How come?
Yeah, because I I'm missing mydog.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, so yeah.
We thought we'd um for regularlisteners, we thought we'd fill
you in on the upshot of what hashappened since we spoke to you a
couple of days ago to ourbeloved Grudel rider.
So yes, he survived the surgery.
Um That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
I don't I think I think I think last time we spoke
he was probably in surgery.
He was in surgery.
He survived.
It was tremendously complicated.
Yes, I mean it is The stupid doghad swallowed a sock, but not
any old sock.
It had to be a Lululemon sock.
Yeah.
With a fabulously um stubbornand non-dissol dissolving cord
(02:06):
um that connected all the piecesof this sock that were scattered
through his stomach, hisduodenum, his large intestine,
his small intestine, the bowel.
I mean, there was basically a anylon string running from one
end to the other, and the poordog just couldn't couldn't
couldn't vomit it at one end,couldn't get it out the other
end.
Poor darling.
So yeah, they had to they had togo into his stomach and in his
(02:30):
intestinal tract, I think therewere four incisions, um, each of
them removing various parts ofthis wretched sock.
So and Annie Annie and our Annieand I are now gonna boycott
Lululemon.
SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
Yeah, I'm never going to a I I had a thing about
Lululemon anyway, because theythey once had a sign in their
window that said 99% of all umillnesses are caused by stress,
which is incorrect, becauseriders' issue with the sock from
their organization was notcaused by stress.
(03:05):
Or maybe dogs aren't included inthe 99% of um things are caused
by stress.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Maybe it's human stress.
SPEAKER_01 (03:11):
Yeah, then it's just such a stupid thing to put in a
window, and then there's someimplication that you know if you
just never get stressed, or ifyou manage your stress, or if
you put your Lululemon pants onand do some meditation and some
yoga, you'll never get sick.
It's just stupid.
Yes.
I hate that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
But I tell you what, speaking of speaking of critical
thinking errors, can can can yousee how how how enthusiastically
we have identified the villainin the piece?
Oh, you know, when when whenwhen something goes wrong, who's
to blame?
Who's to blame?
You know, it's it's um it'snever satisfying to go, well,
it's just one of the things thathappens, you know, that's
(03:49):
nature, that's the cycles of theof the seasons.
Um cycles of the seasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Oh well, yeah, I'm just just What do you mean the
cycles of the seasons?
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
I'm just saying things happen.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
You know things happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Shit happens.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
But uh I you know And we want to assign blame.
We want to assign blame toattribute, it's it's
attribution.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
That's right.
So it's Lululemon in theirproduct department.
You know, why are they notthinking about what happens when
a when a grudel swallows one oftheir socks?
I mean, surely they should bethey should be ahead of the
game.
They're a premium brand, forGod's sake.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Yeah, that the there should be a department that that
is headed up that's around whatwould happen if a dog of any
breed, or maybe each the uh eachdog breed should have its own
little section.
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
Yeah, because the nature of the uh the the the
injury is going to be differentbetween a large dog and a small
dog.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Yeah, what would happen if he was a small dog?
Anyway, the thing about it isit's true true what you say is
who's to blame.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Um and I guess that's that part of our our
brain, it's our attempt toregain control of a situation or
the narrative.
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
You know, it's like something bad happens in the
world, so we want to to what wewant to know that there is a
force that is causing it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
Causing it so we can so we can defend ourselves
against it.
You know, that we can that wecan you know building Assuage
the gods or something.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
I mean it's this it's the bad things happen.
We're back at bad things happenin threes.
Yes.
Or um everything happens for areason.
There's the everything happensfor a reason thing.
What?
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Okay, so my my e-bike was stolen from um from
the parking lot on on Fridaynight.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Incident one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:28):
Rider swallows a sock and and has to have
surgery.
Incident two.
So so what's gonna be the thirdone?
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
No, we've already got the third one.
What was the third one?
My computer fell off the tableand my screen smashed.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
You dropped it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
No, I well, that's well, that's some attribution
there.
Did I drop it or did I just falloff?
What happened?
I've got this I I think I don'tknow, I'm beginning to think
that Yo-Yo, the other dog, is toblame for a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Oh really?
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
Well, I mean, my my girl one of my girlfriends
messaged me last night and andshe reckons that Yo-Yo has been
plotting this for a long timewith Ryder.
And probably she gave him thesock.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Yeah, n nudging nudging the sock in his
direction with the bigger.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Yeah, because she gets more food, she gets more
attention, she gets the ball toherself.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Come on, and the other thing Lululemon.
Yeah, come on, Ryder.
I know you want it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's right.
And the other thing I think isthat maybe Yo-Yo um pushed my
computer off the table.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
It wouldn't surprise me.
Well, look, I mean we know we'veknown for a long time that Yo Yo
ruins everything.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Yeah, well, she's got an assassin quality to her,
hasn't she?
She's got a bit of an assassinquality.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
She's got a she's got a thick face but a black
heart.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah, she has.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
You can't see what's going on inside.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
So I may decide to move the blame from Lululemon.
I was enjoying that though.
To um to to her other the theblack grudel.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Or we could get a small pair of leggings and make
loot and uh make yo yo wearthem.
The Lululemon assassin.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
It is it is true though, where that that notion
that we have that there issomething, there is a force
bigger than us that is causingthese things to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Well sometimes it's true though.
You know, I mean, you know,sometimes you're in a
relationship, and if you're in arelationship with somebody who
doesn't have your best interestsat heart, then it's good to
recognise that, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
But that's a person, that's not an invisible agent.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Hang on a minute.
I I I know we're audio uh only,but I'm gonna see if Annie Annie
recognises this sight gag.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Oh, it is Yes, and I know the film you're talking
about.
It's the one with Julia Roberts.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
The the enemy within, the enemy next door, the
enemy in your bed.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Yes, close, what do you do in your bed?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Sle uh sleeping with the enemy.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Sleeping with the enemy, yeah.
It was a it was a it was a JuliaRoberts film that Annie and I
used to laugh at the posterbecause she, you know, the the
movie poster was just a verylarge close-up of Julia Roberts'
face and her hair was wet and itwas pulled back and she looked
quite quite quite worried.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
But yes, sometimes Yeah, but you extrapolate
because that sounds mad, right?
Okay, it does sound mad.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
The point is that sometimes we are sleeping with
the enemy.
Sometimes there are people inour lives who are making things
difficult for us.
And in that instance, it's it'sit's actually um it's
appropriate to attributecausation.
Maybe let's not call it blame.
But maybe I think it isappropriate to contribute
causation to something that youthen have power to defend
(08:30):
yourself against.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, but that's an entirely different issue.
In that situation, where someoneis stuck in a crappy
relationship with someone'swhere where someone is abusive,
looking at that person andgoing, This is not good for me
because you are causing mewhatever is is is very, very
appropriate.
The thing that is inappropriateis to go to the next step and
(08:51):
go, this relationship has beensent by something, you know,
fill in the above, you know, Godor the universe or whatever, to
teach me a lesson, and then youget caught up in the what is
this lesson about?
What am I meant to learn bybeing with this dick?
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
As opposed to he is a dick, andI've got to get out of here, it
(09:12):
gets layered on because what wewant is that there is some
agency.
Yeah.
That that so if you look at whathappened with Ryder, if I had
that sort of spiritual beliefsystem, um, I would have then
gone, right?
Um, the universe has sent methis um issue with my dog, the
dog has swallowed a sock.
(09:33):
Um, what is the universe tryingto tell me?
And then I could get reallycaught up.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Get rid of all your socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
Get rid yeah, don't yeah, get rid of all your socks,
don't wear Lululemon.
I don't wear Lululemon anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
But you do wear socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Yeah, I do wear socks, and he has in the past
swallowed underwear and alsofour weeks ago one single glove.
Yeah.
But he vomited that back up.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Sounds like a nightmare dog.
Why are we so fond of him?
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
I don't know.
I know.
See, Yo Yo, the evil dog whopushed the computer off the
table and possibly gave him thesock.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Oh, she's fine.
She's robust.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
She doesn't ever eat any underwear or socks.
Does she?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
No.
No, no, that's uh she'llsometimes she'll shall eat a
pine cone.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Yeah, it's a big one.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
But not a sock.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Tell you what, that dog rider is never going to be
anywhere near I don't know howwe're gonna do it.
He's he's he's sneaky because heruns off into the bushes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
He's a th th this is this is now a perfect hook for
your general anxiety disordernow.
Oh it is.
You're gonna you're gonna behyper hyper vigilant.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Hyper vigilant about where is the dog and what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
He's gonna be a helicopter mother.
Heli A helicopter owner.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Helicopter owner.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
What's in his mouth now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Yeah, it's not it's not not going to be good.
This is not going to be a goodthree years.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
I'm envisioning a a future where I'm constantly you
know reaching into the dog'smouth to pull something out.
Yes.
Because while you say, David,David, David, he swallowed
something.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
Yeah, David, David, David, he swallowed something.
Absolutely.
So what else yes?
SPEAKER_00 (11:00):
Yeah, I mean so so I think I think when when trying
to discern, you know, whetherthere is actual causation or
whether you're just findingsomething to blame because it
helps you to feel like you'reback in crop control, I do think
the language can help you makethat distinction.
And just those two differentwords, blame, you know, I blame
the sock, I blame Lululemon, Iblame Ryder, I blame Yo yo Yo
(11:23):
yo.
Um blame.
Blame has got a an edge to it, acharge to it.
There's almost drama there.
But if you talk in in reallykind of neutral language, like
consequences, you know, this wasa consequence of this.
Of what though?
Okay, well, this was aconsequence of um you know of of
of of Ryder being, you know,left to his own devices where he
(11:44):
might find a sock.
You know, uh it it it it's aconsequence of, you know, the
Grudel's natural instinct toconsume things that it's chewing
up.
You know, that's why it'shappening.
Um it's it's cleaner, I think,when you when you think in terms
of cause and effect.
This cause so you've gotcausation, you've got you know
(12:04):
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
So you so I guess it's back to that notion of what
can you control and what can'tyou control.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
And are you saying that you can control the the the
language that you use todescribe the situation to
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And also you can become moreaware.
You know, we will now be awareof what the dog is doing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Oh my goodness, every time he's chewing, I'll
I'll I'll give him a an oralexam.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So uh so instead of looking forsome larger agent, agent, that's
it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Yeah, that's it.
Where there's blame, you ascribeagency.
You know, you you you say it'salmost like you know, yo-yo's
been scheming, you know,Lululemon are corporately in you
know, um irresponsible with theproducts that they're
developing.
So when we ascribe agency, itkind of ramps up the drama and
(13:00):
we get into blame.
But if you don't ascribe agencyand you talk in terms of the
concrete um incidents, you know,this happened which caused that,
uh-huh.
That happened, that caused that.
Now I can see causation.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Um okay, so you're in a relationship, yeah, and um
he is maybe gaslighting you.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Okay, so let's say that you're in a relationship,
and people as your friends arestarting to say to you, can you
not see what's happening?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
You're being gaslit.
You know, that classic situationwhere men make women feel mad.
Yeah, yeah.
They do something, the woman hasa reaction, and then the issue
is the reaction, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Um, it's her reactivity, it's her hysteria,
not what he has done.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And you're not gonna like this.
Yeah.
But I'm saying that when we useterms like gaslighting and he's
you know, he's to blame and allof those sorts of things, then
then then look, it does create adrama, you know?
But it is a drama.
It it is a drama.
Is there a way of of giving thatadvice saying, you know, uh
listen, I notice that wheneveryou try to um you know, whenever
(14:11):
you describe one of yourachievements, I notice that what
he does is that he Diminishesyou and pulls you down.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Okay, let's take a really, really concrete example,
right?
Let's just take this.
And this is often what happenswith coercion and control.
Okay, yeah.
So the woman is has gone outwith her friends, right?
Let's just say on her own withher girlfriends, and then what
he does is start to he'll ringher um just to check that she's
okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Just need to know where you are, you're okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
And she's quite a nice thing to do, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
No, it's not not a nice thing to do, it's a
control.
So sh he's saying, I I'm justchecking in on you because I
love you.
Yeah, she sees it as a positivesign of love and protection.
Yeah, that's right.
But her friends are alert to thefact that actually it's about
control.
Yeah.
He's tracking her, he wants toknow where she is, he doesn't
(15:08):
want anybody else looking ather, and it's only going to
deteriorate.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Right, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
And that's the re and that is a very, very common
scenario, especially now withsmartphones, is he can see where
she is.
Okay, right.
Yeah.
So what should her friends say?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
What should her friends say?
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
In that situation.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
Um, well, it depends on on what it is that they are
hoping to achieve.
What are what what what are thetr what do the friends want?
They want her to mo her to beaware that she's being sure.
Tracked?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Yeah, that it's unhealthy.
It's not love.
Jealousy is not love.
Control is not love.
Yeah.
It can be framed as love, but assoon as you're trying to control
another person, it's not love.
Yeah.
So everyone should rememberthat.
If someone's tracking you, um,if someone's often women think
or people think that some ifthere's jealousy present, um,
(16:00):
it's it's a sign of love.
It's not a sign of love, it's asign of insecurity on the side
of the person and lack of trustof you, right?
It's it's bad.
Jealousy is not a positive thingat all.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Uh look, I I I I d I don't have a neat answer to the
question, and I guess the thingthat I'm wrestling with at the
moment is what are thesituations when actually uh
ramping up the drama is actuallya good thing?
You know, when you ramp up thedrama and you say, you know,
he's he's he's um this isn'thealthy, you know?
(16:31):
It's not right what he's doingto do.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Yeah, but you're doing you're saying that with
with a sort of a hystericaledge, as if all women are gonna
go.
Yeah, it's not right.
He's yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So you can just say, listen,have you thought about the fact
that him tracking you could bethe start of something that's
actually quite negative?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Okay, so d d d did you notice the tenor of those
two um sample statements thatyou just made?
One of them was dramatic.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
One of them was very rational and measured.
And and it seemed, you know,earlier in this conversation, I
was saying that the probably thebetter way or the you know, the
the cleaner way of doing it, isto take the drama out of it and
talk about, you know, causationrather than blame.
Yeah.
But uh but but now I'm justposing the question, if you want
to get through to your, youknow, your girlfriend who is on
the way to coercion and controland it's not good for her, um,
(17:21):
how much do you do you use thatfor first voice, which is, you
know, can't you see what he'sdoing to you?
It's not healthy.
Do you use that voice?
Or do you use the voice whichsays, Look, I'm I'm concerned
that he's called you, you know,twice since we've been out.
He's asking you this.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Doesn't that does that, you know, m make you feel
that you know and and I think ifI'm in a relationship with
someone and I'm thrilled to theback teeth because they're
really lovely and they've givenme a whole lot of attention and
he's really super nice.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Hopefully that'll happen for you one day.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
Yeah, I can only hope.
And and then that's mynarrative.
Yeah, and I've got a strongemotional attachment to that
narrative.
You know, maybe I've been out ofa relationship for five, six
years, and finally he's here.
The last thing I want is someonegoing, listen, he's a gaslighter
and he's a narcissist, right?
Because it's going to cut acrossmy hopes, dreams, and my
(18:18):
narratives.
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
My narrative.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
So So you're saying in a situation like that you
should keep it really umnon-dramatic.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Non-dramatic, low-key, and very, very
rational.
And in order to, you really haveto if you want to persuade
someone, you need to really beable to climb inside their
narrative and really acutelylisten to what it is that they
want.
Right?
What do they want?
Do do you really think I justwant to finish that thought.
(18:49):
So if if it's me and I'm in thisrelationship and and you're
seeing that it's um not going towork for me, you need to be
super hip to what I want, what Ineed, and what my hopes and
dreams are in order to influenceme.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
That's right.
Well, I mean, this is this thisthis was the thought that I just
had.
Um, you know, you talk abouttrying to persuade somebody.
I think with situations likethat, the only the only person
who is capable of persuading meto do something important, you
know, that might be entangledwith a a narrative around my
identity, the only person whohas any power to persuade me is
myself.
(19:27):
Correct.
So so I think what what I'mhearing is you're saying you
have a conversation that enablesthe person to persuade
themselves, you know, to try andhelp them to see the concrete
the concrete evidence that it'sthe same old thing that facts
facts heat up against emotion,right?
(19:47):
That's right, they'll bounceoff.
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
They'll just bounce off the frame.
You know, it's it's the old umtelling anti-vaxxers that
they're being idiots because ofcourse vaccines worth at work,
it just bounces off the frame.
You have to try and find thecommonality, right?
Yeah between you.
So if someone's in thatsituation, you know, you need to
be able to climb inside thereand go, wow, this person is
(20:11):
really, really attached to thispotential romantic outcome.
How am I going to influencethem?
SPEAKER_00 (20:18):
What what happens when I I know I'm only picking
one, you know, particularpossibility, but when when
someone has when someone'spathology is so kind of loaded
up that that shifting thatperception that finally
someone's paying me attentionand I'd and and I'd rather be
called, you know, three times onan evening than than than
(20:40):
completely an all.
Yeah.
You know, if someone's gotreally strong pathology, yeah.
Again, same question.
You know, do you do you try andbreak through it with emotion or
do you try because that's that'sit's it's questioning, you know,
it's it's asking them so youknow, obviously, you know,
you're really enjoying thislevel of attention.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Right.
Yes, I am.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
What do you get out of it?
Sounds like a therapeuticconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Yeah, well you'd have to be super smart about it,
I think.
Um and then, you know, at somepoint going, Yeah, so how often
does he call you when you'reout?
Oh okay, that that's quite alot.
Is there any any other areaswhere um he's sort of tracking
(21:27):
you or following you orquestioning you?
Yeah, yes, he there are, butthat's because he loves me and
he really cares about me andhe's very protective.
Yeah.
And then starting to unpack thatwith the person.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Okay.
So you're saying that aconversation that starts like
that could actually end withsomeone going, gee, I can see
there is a problem here, youknow, I better I better have a
conversation with him aboutboundaries.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Well, obviously not.
But I think if at some point umyou can just go, um, look, I
don't know, I don't know himvery well, but if I were you,
maybe I would just watch forthis because you know, sometimes
at the beginning of acontrolling coercive
(22:13):
relationship, this is how itstarts.
I don't know, but why don't youbecome aware of this?
And I mean, um, in fact, I'mwatching a show at the moment
where this serial manipulator,narcissist, scammer has taken um
advantage of a number of women,yeah, and each successive woman
has tried to warn the next one.
Yes.
And it's just bounced off.
It's like, how could you saythat?
(22:34):
He's just bought me a ticket tothe Barbados to Barbados.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
Yeah, yeah.
We're very protective of ournarratives.
This story is based on untrueevents or something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Something like that's really good.
Yeah.
He's so vile that I'm screamingat the television going, he's
scamming you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Screaming at the television, so there's the drama
approach.
So again, I think that that'sthe instinctive approach, which
is to blame, um, like we didwith the Lululemon sock.
Um, so is i i again I'm justtrying to be really blaming the
sock, though, are we?
Or yo yo, we're not really.
Yeah, but but but but we knowhow enjoyable it is to actually
(23:10):
have something to blame.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
Yeah, blame is great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Blame is great because we get to be righteous
and we get to have righteousanger, and I'm sure that there's
a uh there's a circuit in thebrain that feels very good about
having righteous anger.
Um but to your point, we need toscale it back, think in terms of
causation and consequence,rather than creating large
narratives about about blame andvictims.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
And and trying to find some sort of external
agency.
Um so David has to go now.
Um so goodbye, David.
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
I hope I I hope I contributed something to do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Um and we will continue this in a minute.
So that's farewell to David, whohad to nip off to a meeting.
But listeners, I am still here.
And I guess if this terrible,disturbing incident um with our
dog, if it's taught us anything,it's the importance of
scepticism and being aware ofyour own metacognition, which is
(24:08):
thinking about your thinking.
Because if you don't think aboutyour thinking, then you're going
to make some pretty poordecisions um when you're
emotional.
So um listeners may be awarethat I am a paid-up member of
the Australian Skeptics Society,and one of my favourite
(24:30):
skeptics, um, Kate Thomas, whodoes some very, very interesting
work around the dangers ofgetting your medical advice from
the internet.
Um, so Kate um is the wonderfulpharmacist who I went to the
mind-body spirit with, withRichard Saunders from the
(24:50):
Skeptic Zone, who is the chiefinvestigator for the Australian
Skeptics, and we wanderedaround, as you know, this this
festival of woo um and looked atall the stalls and sort of
marveled at the amount ofnonsense that people are
selling.
But of course, you don't need togo to an event, you don't need
(25:11):
to turn up to a festival, youcan just look at your phone or
your computer, andmisinformation and
disinformation and woo um iscoming at you hard and fast.
Uh, we are in terrible danger, Ithink, because we are getting
our medical knowledge, ourmedical information, our medical
(25:34):
recommendations from completelyum untrained influencers who get
a little bit of science and thenaway you go, and they're
sounding very, very certain, andthey're all attractive, and
they're all you know, they'veall got lovely makeup on,
they're very pretty, or they'remen and they're muscular and and
they look super fit, and they'retelling you what you should do
(25:55):
with your autoimmune disease orwith your cancer or with your
hormones.
So if anybody um in Sydneyperhaps is interested, um, Kate
Thomas is going to be presentingat the Sydney Um Skeptics in the
pub, which is at the OccidentalHotel, 43 York Street Sydney, at
(26:20):
6 o'clock on November the 6th.
So if anybody's around and you'dlike to listen to her speak,
she's also super duperentertaining.
So she sort of will talk about,she'll go through some serious
data, proper research as opposedto the research that the
anti-vaxxers do.
Um, and she's got thisinteresting research around
health in the social media spaceand she'll sort of discuss why
(26:45):
people are turning towardshealth care delivered in this
way.
And she'll look at some of thereally sort of wacky woo and
quackery that you can find onTikTok.
So she's really interesting.
She's a pharmacist with 25 yearsexperience and like me and the
rest of the skeptics, we've sortof turned our attention to try
and fight the disinformation.
(27:06):
Um because look, even in the vetspace, this is what I'm finding.
So even with poor defenselessanimals who need to have their
their vaccinations and needproper care, people are coming
in and saying to the vets, Idon't want to vaccinate my dog.
And can you do ithomeopathically?
And that would be a hard no.
(27:28):
So, um, listeners, thank you fortuning in today.
I hope you found um thisinteresting and informative.
I will let you know how Rydergoes.
He has to come home from the vetpossibly tonight with a drain
in.
Ooh, I'm not very good with thatstuff, but David's really,
really good.
So David's going to have to betending to the poor dog's
(27:50):
wounds.
He'll probably have one of thosecones of shame on his head so he
doesn't lick his wounds.
Anyway, it's going to be a veryinteresting time because Yo-Yo,
the assassin dog who probablygave him the sock, um, she is
definitely going to want to playin a rambunctious way, and she
won't be able to.
So we will let you know how thatgoes.
Thanks for tuning in.
(28:12):
As usual, stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
(28:34):
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
the fiction and the other sixstars and thoughts we have in
the course of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And you can also talk on whetheror not you can trust your gut.
(29:04):
Please, please respect that gutfeeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build with a live, but wehave to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribewhen we're going to do the
podcast and share it with yourfellow smart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
(29:24):
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay start,say study, and keep your
critical thinking out shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from why Smart Women see you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
I'm your host, Anima Cabin, andas a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not at all.
I don't think I did go to findit.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
I am broadcasting today fromAustralia, specifically in DY on
the northern beaches of Sydney,New South Wales, Australia, and
(01:08):
it is weirdly freezing cold andraining.
So it got hot and now it's coldagain, which is really odd, but
that's spring for you, I guess.
Um Hello David.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
You're lucky to have me here this morning, you know.
How come?
Yeah, because I I'm missing mydog.
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Yeah, so yeah.
We thought we'd um for regularlisteners, we thought we'd fill
you in on the upshot of what hashappened since we spoke to you a
couple of days ago to ourbeloved Grudel rider.
So yes, he survived the surgery.
Um That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
I don't I think I think I think last time we spoke
he was probably in surgery.
He was in surgery.
He survived.
It was tremendously complicated.
Yes, I mean it is The stupid doghad swallowed a sock, but not
any old sock.
It had to be a Lululemon sock.
Yeah.
With a fabulously um stubbornand non-dissol dissolving cord
(02:06):
um that connected all the piecesof this sock that were scattered
through his stomach, hisduodenum, his large intestine,
his small intestine, the bowel.
I mean, there was basically a anylon string running from one
end to the other, and the poordog just couldn't couldn't
couldn't vomit it at one end,couldn't get it out the other
end.
Poor darling.
So yeah, they had to they had togo into his stomach and in his
(02:30):
intestinal tract, I think therewere four incisions, um, each of
them removing various parts ofthis wretched sock.
So and Annie Annie and our Annieand I are now gonna boycott
Lululemon.
SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
Yeah, I'm never going to a I I had a thing about
Lululemon anyway, because theythey once had a sign in their
window that said 99% of all umillnesses are caused by stress,
which is incorrect, becauseriders' issue with the sock from
their organization was notcaused by stress.
(03:05):
Or maybe dogs aren't included inthe 99% of um things are caused
by stress.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Maybe it's human stress.
SPEAKER_01 (03:11):
Yeah, then it's just such a stupid thing to put in a
window, and then there's someimplication that you know if you
just never get stressed, or ifyou manage your stress, or if
you put your Lululemon pants onand do some meditation and some
yoga, you'll never get sick.
It's just stupid.
Yes.
I hate that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:27):
But I tell you what, speaking of speaking of critical
thinking errors, can can can yousee how how how enthusiastically
we have identified the villainin the piece?
Oh, you know, when when whenwhen something goes wrong, who's
to blame?
Who's to blame?
You know, it's it's um it'snever satisfying to go, well,
it's just one of the things thathappens, you know, that's
(03:49):
nature, that's the cycles of theof the seasons.
Um cycles of the seasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Oh well, yeah, I'm just just What do you mean the
cycles of the seasons?
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
I'm just saying things happen.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
You know things happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Shit happens.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
But uh I you know And we want to assign blame.
We want to assign blame toattribute, it's it's
attribution.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
That's right.
So it's Lululemon in theirproduct department.
You know, why are they notthinking about what happens when
a when a grudel swallows one oftheir socks?
I mean, surely they should bethey should be ahead of the
game.
They're a premium brand, forGod's sake.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Yeah, that the there should be a department that that
is headed up that's around whatwould happen if a dog of any
breed, or maybe each the uh eachdog breed should have its own
little section.
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (04:31):
Yeah, because the nature of the uh the the the
injury is going to be differentbetween a large dog and a small
dog.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
Yeah, what would happen if he was a small dog?
Anyway, the thing about it isit's true true what you say is
who's to blame.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
Um and I guess that's that part of our our
brain, it's our attempt toregain control of a situation or
the narrative.
SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
You know, it's like something bad happens in the
world, so we want to to what wewant to know that there is a
force that is causing it.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
Causing it so we can so we can defend ourselves
against it.
You know, that we can that wecan you know building Assuage
the gods or something.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
I mean it's this it's the bad things happen.
We're back at bad things happenin threes.
Yes.
Or um everything happens for areason.
There's the everything happensfor a reason thing.
What?
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Okay, so my my e-bike was stolen from um from
the parking lot on on Fridaynight.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Incident one.
SPEAKER_00 (05:28):
Rider swallows a sock and and has to have
surgery.
Incident two.
So so what's gonna be the thirdone?
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
No, we've already got the third one.
What was the third one?
My computer fell off the tableand my screen smashed.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
You dropped it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
No, I well, that's well, that's some attribution
there.
Did I drop it or did I just falloff?
What happened?
I've got this I I think I don'tknow, I'm beginning to think
that Yo-Yo, the other dog, is toblame for a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Oh really?
SPEAKER_01 (05:58):
Well, I mean, my my girl one of my girlfriends
messaged me last night and andshe reckons that Yo-Yo has been
plotting this for a long timewith Ryder.
And probably she gave him thesock.
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Yeah, n nudging nudging the sock in his
direction with the bigger.
SPEAKER_01 (06:12):
Yeah, because she gets more food, she gets more
attention, she gets the ball toherself.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Come on, and the other thing Lululemon.
Yeah, come on, Ryder.
I know you want it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
It's right.
And the other thing I think isthat maybe Yo-Yo um pushed my
computer off the table.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
It wouldn't surprise me.
Well, look, I mean we know we'veknown for a long time that Yo Yo
ruins everything.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Yeah, well, she's got an assassin quality to her,
hasn't she?
She's got a bit of an assassinquality.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
She's got a she's got a thick face but a black
heart.
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah, she has.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
You can't see what's going on inside.
SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
So I may decide to move the blame from Lululemon.
I was enjoying that though.
To um to to her other the theblack grudel.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Or we could get a small pair of leggings and make
loot and uh make yo yo wearthem.
The Lululemon assassin.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
It is it is true though, where that that notion
that we have that there issomething, there is a force
bigger than us that is causingthese things to happen.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Well sometimes it's true though.
You know, I mean, you know,sometimes you're in a
relationship, and if you're in arelationship with somebody who
doesn't have your best interestsat heart, then it's good to
recognise that, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
But that's a person, that's not an invisible agent.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Hang on a minute.
I I I know we're audio uh only,but I'm gonna see if Annie Annie
recognises this sight gag.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Oh, it is Yes, and I know the film you're talking
about.
It's the one with Julia Roberts.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
The the enemy within, the enemy next door, the
enemy in your bed.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Yes, close, what do you do in your bed?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
Sle uh sleeping with the enemy.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Sleeping with the enemy, yeah.
It was a it was a it was a JuliaRoberts film that Annie and I
used to laugh at the posterbecause she, you know, the the
movie poster was just a verylarge close-up of Julia Roberts'
face and her hair was wet and itwas pulled back and she looked
quite quite quite worried.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
But yes, sometimes Yeah, but you extrapolate
because that sounds mad, right?
Okay, it does sound mad.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
The point is that sometimes we are sleeping with
the enemy.
Sometimes there are people inour lives who are making things
difficult for us.
And in that instance, it's it'sit's actually um it's
appropriate to attributecausation.
Maybe let's not call it blame.
But maybe I think it isappropriate to contribute
causation to something that youthen have power to defend
(08:30):
yourself against.
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, but that's an entirely different issue.
In that situation, where someoneis stuck in a crappy
relationship with someone'swhere where someone is abusive,
looking at that person andgoing, This is not good for me
because you are causing mewhatever is is is very, very
appropriate.
The thing that is inappropriateis to go to the next step and
(08:51):
go, this relationship has beensent by something, you know,
fill in the above, you know, Godor the universe or whatever, to
teach me a lesson, and then youget caught up in the what is
this lesson about?
What am I meant to learn bybeing with this dick?
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
As opposed to he is a dick, andI've got to get out of here, it
(09:12):
gets layered on because what wewant is that there is some
agency.
Yeah.
That that so if you look at whathappened with Ryder, if I had
that sort of spiritual beliefsystem, um, I would have then
gone, right?
Um, the universe has sent methis um issue with my dog, the
dog has swallowed a sock.
(09:33):
Um, what is the universe tryingto tell me?
And then I could get reallycaught up.
SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Get rid of all your socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
Get rid yeah, don't yeah, get rid of all your socks,
don't wear Lululemon.
I don't wear Lululemon anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
But you do wear socks.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Yeah, I do wear socks, and he has in the past
swallowed underwear and alsofour weeks ago one single glove.
Yeah.
But he vomited that back up.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
Sounds like a nightmare dog.
Why are we so fond of him?
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
I don't know.
I know.
See, Yo Yo, the evil dog whopushed the computer off the
table and possibly gave him thesock.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Oh, she's fine.
She's robust.
SPEAKER_01 (10:06):
She doesn't ever eat any underwear or socks.
Does she?
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
No.
No, no, that's uh she'llsometimes she'll shall eat a
pine cone.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Yeah, it's a big one.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
But not a sock.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Tell you what, that dog rider is never going to be
anywhere near I don't know howwe're gonna do it.
He's he's he's sneaky because heruns off into the bushes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
He's a th th this is this is now a perfect hook for
your general anxiety disordernow.
Oh it is.
You're gonna you're gonna behyper hyper vigilant.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
Hyper vigilant about where is the dog and what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (10:38):
He's gonna be a helicopter mother.
Heli A helicopter owner.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Helicopter owner.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
What's in his mouth now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Yeah, it's not it's not not going to be good.
This is not going to be a goodthree years.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
I'm envisioning a a future where I'm constantly you
know reaching into the dog'smouth to pull something out.
Yes.
Because while you say, David,David, David, he swallowed
something.
SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
Yeah, David, David, David, he swallowed something.
Absolutely.
So what else yes?
SPEAKER_00 (11:00):
Yeah, I mean so so I think I think when when trying
to discern, you know, whetherthere is actual causation or
whether you're just findingsomething to blame because it
helps you to feel like you'reback in crop control, I do think
the language can help you makethat distinction.
And just those two differentwords, blame, you know, I blame
the sock, I blame Lululemon, Iblame Ryder, I blame Yo yo Yo
(11:23):
yo.
Um blame.
Blame has got a an edge to it, acharge to it.
There's almost drama there.
But if you talk in in reallykind of neutral language, like
consequences, you know, this wasa consequence of this.
Of what though?
Okay, well, this was aconsequence of um you know of of
of of Ryder being, you know,left to his own devices where he
(11:44):
might find a sock.
You know, uh it it it it's aconsequence of, you know, the
Grudel's natural instinct toconsume things that it's chewing
up.
You know, that's why it'shappening.
Um it's it's cleaner, I think,when you when you think in terms
of cause and effect.
This cause so you've gotcausation, you've got you know
(12:04):
consequences.
SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
So you so I guess it's back to that notion of what
can you control and what can'tyou control.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
And are you saying that you can control the the the
language that you use todescribe the situation to
yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah.
And also you can become moreaware.
You know, we will now be awareof what the dog is doing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Oh my goodness, every time he's chewing, I'll
I'll I'll give him a an oralexam.
SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So uh so instead of looking forsome larger agent, agent, that's
it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Yeah, that's it.
Where there's blame, you ascribeagency.
You know, you you you say it'salmost like you know, yo-yo's
been scheming, you know,Lululemon are corporately in you
know, um irresponsible with theproducts that they're
developing.
So when we ascribe agency, itkind of ramps up the drama and
(13:00):
we get into blame.
But if you don't ascribe agencyand you talk in terms of the
concrete um incidents, you know,this happened which caused that,
uh-huh.
That happened, that caused that.
Now I can see causation.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Um okay, so you're in a relationship, yeah, and um
he is maybe gaslighting you.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Okay, so let's say that you're in a relationship,
and people as your friends arestarting to say to you, can you
not see what's happening?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
You're being gaslit.
You know, that classic situationwhere men make women feel mad.
Yeah, yeah.
They do something, the woman hasa reaction, and then the issue
is the reaction, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
Um, it's her reactivity, it's her hysteria,
not what he has done.
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And you're not gonna like this.
Yeah.
But I'm saying that when we useterms like gaslighting and he's
you know, he's to blame and allof those sorts of things, then
then then look, it does create adrama, you know?
But it is a drama.
It it is a drama.
Is there a way of of giving thatadvice saying, you know, uh
listen, I notice that wheneveryou try to um you know, whenever
(14:11):
you describe one of yourachievements, I notice that what
he does is that he Diminishesyou and pulls you down.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Okay, let's take a really, really concrete example,
right?
Let's just take this.
And this is often what happenswith coercion and control.
Okay, yeah.
So the woman is has gone outwith her friends, right?
Let's just say on her own withher girlfriends, and then what
he does is start to he'll ringher um just to check that she's
okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
Just need to know where you are, you're okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
And she's quite a nice thing to do, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
No, it's not not a nice thing to do, it's a
control.
So sh he's saying, I I'm justchecking in on you because I
love you.
Yeah, she sees it as a positivesign of love and protection.
Yeah, that's right.
But her friends are alert to thefact that actually it's about
control.
Yeah.
He's tracking her, he wants toknow where she is, he doesn't
(15:08):
want anybody else looking ather, and it's only going to
deteriorate.
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Right, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
And that's the re and that is a very, very common
scenario, especially now withsmartphones, is he can see where
she is.
Okay, right.
Yeah.
So what should her friends say?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
What should her friends say?
SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
In that situation.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
Um, well, it depends on on what it is that they are
hoping to achieve.
What are what what what are thetr what do the friends want?
They want her to mo her to beaware that she's being sure.
Tracked?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Yeah, that it's unhealthy.
It's not love.
Jealousy is not love.
Control is not love.
Yeah.
It can be framed as love, but assoon as you're trying to control
another person, it's not love.
Yeah.
So everyone should rememberthat.
If someone's tracking you, um,if someone's often women think
or people think that some ifthere's jealousy present, um,
(16:00):
it's it's a sign of love.
It's not a sign of love, it's asign of insecurity on the side
of the person and lack of trustof you, right?
It's it's bad.
Jealousy is not a positive thingat all.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Uh look, I I I I d I don't have a neat answer to the
question, and I guess the thingthat I'm wrestling with at the
moment is what are thesituations when actually uh
ramping up the drama is actuallya good thing?
You know, when you ramp up thedrama and you say, you know,
he's he's he's um this isn'thealthy, you know?
(16:31):
It's not right what he's doingto do.
SPEAKER_01 (16:32):
Yeah, but you're doing you're saying that with
with a sort of a hystericaledge, as if all women are gonna
go.
Yeah, it's not right.
He's yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So you can just say, listen,have you thought about the fact
that him tracking you could bethe start of something that's
actually quite negative?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Okay, so d d d did you notice the tenor of those
two um sample statements thatyou just made?
One of them was dramatic.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
One of them was very rational and measured.
And and it seemed, you know,earlier in this conversation, I
was saying that the probably thebetter way or the you know, the
the cleaner way of doing it, isto take the drama out of it and
talk about, you know, causationrather than blame.
Yeah.
But uh but but now I'm justposing the question, if you want
to get through to your, youknow, your girlfriend who is on
the way to coercion and controland it's not good for her, um,
(17:21):
how much do you do you use thatfor first voice, which is, you
know, can't you see what he'sdoing to you?
It's not healthy.
Do you use that voice?
Or do you use the voice whichsays, Look, I'm I'm concerned
that he's called you, you know,twice since we've been out.
He's asking you this.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Doesn't that does that, you know, m make you feel
that you know and and I think ifI'm in a relationship with
someone and I'm thrilled to theback teeth because they're
really lovely and they've givenme a whole lot of attention and
he's really super nice.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Hopefully that'll happen for you one day.
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
Yeah, I can only hope.
And and then that's mynarrative.
Yeah, and I've got a strongemotional attachment to that
narrative.
You know, maybe I've been out ofa relationship for five, six
years, and finally he's here.
The last thing I want is someonegoing, listen, he's a gaslighter
and he's a narcissist, right?
Because it's going to cut acrossmy hopes, dreams, and my
(18:18):
narratives.
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
My narrative.
SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
So So you're saying in a situation like that you
should keep it really umnon-dramatic.
SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Non-dramatic, low-key, and very, very
rational.
And in order to, you really haveto if you want to persuade
someone, you need to really beable to climb inside their
narrative and really acutelylisten to what it is that they
want.
Right?
What do they want?
Do do you really think I justwant to finish that thought.
(18:49):
So if if it's me and I'm in thisrelationship and and you're
seeing that it's um not going towork for me, you need to be
super hip to what I want, what Ineed, and what my hopes and
dreams are in order to influenceme.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
That's right.
Well, I mean, this is this thisthis was the thought that I just
had.
Um, you know, you talk abouttrying to persuade somebody.
I think with situations likethat, the only the only person
who is capable of persuading meto do something important, you
know, that might be entangledwith a a narrative around my
identity, the only person whohas any power to persuade me is
myself.
(19:27):
Correct.
So so I think what what I'mhearing is you're saying you
have a conversation that enablesthe person to persuade
themselves, you know, to try andhelp them to see the concrete
the concrete evidence that it'sthe same old thing that facts
facts heat up against emotion,right?
(19:47):
That's right, they'll bounceoff.
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
They'll just bounce off the frame.
You know, it's it's the old umtelling anti-vaxxers that
they're being idiots because ofcourse vaccines worth at work,
it just bounces off the frame.
You have to try and find thecommonality, right?
Yeah between you.
So if someone's in thatsituation, you know, you need to
be able to climb inside thereand go, wow, this person is
(20:11):
really, really attached to thispotential romantic outcome.
How am I going to influencethem?
SPEAKER_00 (20:18):
What what happens when I I know I'm only picking
one, you know, particularpossibility, but when when
someone has when someone'spathology is so kind of loaded
up that that shifting thatperception that finally
someone's paying me attentionand I'd and and I'd rather be
called, you know, three times onan evening than than than
(20:40):
completely an all.
Yeah.
You know, if someone's gotreally strong pathology, yeah.
Again, same question.
You know, do you do you try andbreak through it with emotion or
do you try because that's that'sit's it's questioning, you know,
it's it's asking them so youknow, obviously, you know,
you're really enjoying thislevel of attention.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
Right.
Yes, I am.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
What do you get out of it?
Sounds like a therapeuticconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (21:07):
Yeah, well you'd have to be super smart about it,
I think.
Um and then, you know, at somepoint going, Yeah, so how often
does he call you when you'reout?
Oh okay, that that's quite alot.
Is there any any other areaswhere um he's sort of tracking
(21:27):
you or following you orquestioning you?
Yeah, yes, he there are, butthat's because he loves me and
he really cares about me andhe's very protective.
Yeah.
And then starting to unpack thatwith the person.
SPEAKER_00 (21:40):
Okay.
So you're saying that aconversation that starts like
that could actually end withsomeone going, gee, I can see
there is a problem here, youknow, I better I better have a
conversation with him aboutboundaries.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
Well, obviously not.
But I think if at some point umyou can just go, um, look, I
don't know, I don't know himvery well, but if I were you,
maybe I would just watch forthis because you know, sometimes
at the beginning of acontrolling coercive
(22:13):
relationship, this is how itstarts.
I don't know, but why don't youbecome aware of this?
And I mean, um, in fact, I'mwatching a show at the moment
where this serial manipulator,narcissist, scammer has taken um
advantage of a number of women,yeah, and each successive woman
has tried to warn the next one.
Yes.
And it's just bounced off.
It's like, how could you saythat?
(22:34):
He's just bought me a ticket tothe Barbados to Barbados.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
Yeah, yeah.
We're very protective of ournarratives.
This story is based on untrueevents or something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Something like that's really good.
Yeah.
He's so vile that I'm screamingat the television going, he's
scamming you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Screaming at the television, so there's the drama
approach.
So again, I think that that'sthe instinctive approach, which
is to blame, um, like we didwith the Lululemon sock.
Um, so is i i again I'm justtrying to be really blaming the
sock, though, are we?
Or yo yo, we're not really.
Yeah, but but but but we knowhow enjoyable it is to actually
(23:10):
have something to blame.
SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
Yeah, blame is great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Blame is great because we get to be righteous
and we get to have righteousanger, and I'm sure that there's
a uh there's a circuit in thebrain that feels very good about
having righteous anger.
Um but to your point, we need toscale it back, think in terms of
causation and consequence,rather than creating large
narratives about about blame andvictims.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
And and trying to find some sort of external
agency.
Um so David has to go now.
Um so goodbye, David.
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
I hope I I hope I contributed something to do.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Um and we will continue this in a minute.
So that's farewell to David, whohad to nip off to a meeting.
But listeners, I am still here.
And I guess if this terrible,disturbing incident um with our
dog, if it's taught us anything,it's the importance of
scepticism and being aware ofyour own metacognition, which is
(24:08):
thinking about your thinking.
Because if you don't think aboutyour thinking, then you're going
to make some pretty poordecisions um when you're
emotional.
So um listeners may be awarethat I am a paid-up member of
the Australian Skeptics Society,and one of my favourite
(24:30):
skeptics, um, Kate Thomas, whodoes some very, very interesting
work around the dangers ofgetting your medical advice from
the internet.
Um, so Kate um is the wonderfulpharmacist who I went to the
mind-body spirit with, withRichard Saunders from the
(24:50):
Skeptic Zone, who is the chiefinvestigator for the Australian
Skeptics, and we wanderedaround, as you know, this this
festival of woo um and looked atall the stalls and sort of
marveled at the amount ofnonsense that people are
selling.
But of course, you don't need togo to an event, you don't need
(25:11):
to turn up to a festival, youcan just look at your phone or
your computer, andmisinformation and
disinformation and woo um iscoming at you hard and fast.
Uh, we are in terrible danger, Ithink, because we are getting
our medical knowledge, ourmedical information, our medical
(25:34):
recommendations from completelyum untrained influencers who get
a little bit of science and thenaway you go, and they're
sounding very, very certain, andthey're all attractive, and
they're all you know, they'veall got lovely makeup on,
they're very pretty, or they'remen and they're muscular and and
they look super fit, and they'retelling you what you should do
(25:55):
with your autoimmune disease orwith your cancer or with your
hormones.
So if anybody um in Sydneyperhaps is interested, um, Kate
Thomas is going to be presentingat the Sydney Um Skeptics in the
pub, which is at the OccidentalHotel, 43 York Street Sydney, at
(26:20):
6 o'clock on November the 6th.
So if anybody's around and you'dlike to listen to her speak,
she's also super duperentertaining.
So she sort of will talk about,she'll go through some serious
data, proper research as opposedto the research that the
anti-vaxxers do.
Um, and she's got thisinteresting research around
health in the social media spaceand she'll sort of discuss why
(26:45):
people are turning towardshealth care delivered in this
way.
And she'll look at some of thereally sort of wacky woo and
quackery that you can find onTikTok.
So she's really interesting.
She's a pharmacist with 25 yearsexperience and like me and the
rest of the skeptics, we've sortof turned our attention to try
and fight the disinformation.
(27:06):
Um because look, even in the vetspace, this is what I'm finding.
So even with poor defenselessanimals who need to have their
their vaccinations and needproper care, people are coming
in and saying to the vets, Idon't want to vaccinate my dog.
And can you do ithomeopathically?
And that would be a hard no.
(27:28):
So, um, listeners, thank you fortuning in today.
I hope you found um thisinteresting and informative.
I will let you know how Rydergoes.
He has to come home from the vetpossibly tonight with a drain
in.
Ooh, I'm not very good with thatstuff, but David's really,
really good.
So David's going to have to betending to the poor dog's
(27:50):
wounds.
He'll probably have one of thosecones of shame on his head so he
doesn't lick his wounds.
Anyway, it's going to be a veryinteresting time because Yo-Yo,
the assassin dog who probablygave him the sock, um, she is
definitely going to want to playin a rambunctious way, and she
won't be able to.
So we will let you know how thatgoes.
Thanks for tuning in.
(28:12):
As usual, stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
(28:34):
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts and
the fiction and the other sixstars and thoughts we have in
the course of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And you can also talk on whetheror not you can trust your gut.
(29:04):
Please, please respect that gutfeeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build with a live, but wehave to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribewhen we're going to do the
podcast and share it with yourfellow smart women and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
(29:24):
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay start,say study, and keep your
critical thinking out shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from why Smart Women see you
later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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