October 8, 2025 • 39 mins
A young woman followed a fruit-only diet until her body could no longer keep up. That tragedy isn’t an outlier—it’s the end point of smaller ideas that sound reasonable, feel empowering, and get reinforced by online echo chambers. We pull on that thread to reveal how “eat clean” becomes a slippery slope, why influencer certainty beats cautious science in the algorithm, and how health halos and status battles can turn food rules into identity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of the turbanage,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my butt I did go throughtopics to find it.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,Sydney, New South Wales,
Australia.
It is the beginning of October,so we are in the middle of
(01:08):
spring here, and it is abeautiful day.
And later on I'll be going downto DY Beach and having a swim.
Today I am joined by David.
SPEAKER_03 (01:18):
Morning.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
Morning, how are you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
I'm very well.
I'm not quite sure why I'm heretoday.
Because I've asked you to be.
Well, that's right.
I don't know what we're going totalk about today.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
So interestingly enough, uh over the last couple
of days, people have said to me,Why do you why are you
podcasting and why are you doingthe TikToks?
And um you know, because it isquite a time-consuming thing.
And I had to really think aboutit.
Why am I doing this?
And then a couple of things havecome across my feed in the last
(01:50):
week um which have reconfirmedthe importance of why we of the
skeptical debunking community dowhat we do.
So I thought we'd talk aboutthose two things today.
So the first is a story of a27-year-old woman who died of
(02:11):
starvation, which isastonishing, isn't it?
In a a Bali hotel room.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
Oh, just the lady that ate the fruit.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
Yeah.
So um at the time of her death,she weighed 22 kilos.
I know.
And she had been What?
Yeah.
She had been following what theycall a fruitarian diet.
And a fruitarian diet is a veryum a very restrictive way of
(02:42):
eating, and as you can tell bythe name, you only eat fruit.
Did you say that she was twentyShe was she weighed twenty-two
kilos.
SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
Um that's that's that's impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
Yeah, I know, right.
And when she checked in to theto the place in Bali, um to the
hotel, the staff noted that shewas emaciated.
Um so she had sunken eyes andprotruding collarbones, um, and
she'd grown so weak that oneevening she had to be escorted
(03:16):
back to her room by the nightclerk.
Now, the thing is that at thetime of her death, she was
suffering from osteoporosis andan albumin deficiency, which are
both linked to prolongednutrition.
And she had a history of this.
So um in her teenage years she'dalready struggled with anorexia,
(03:38):
and then when she was in theUnited Kingdom, she developed an
interest in yoga and veganism,right?
So we're just getting furtherand further in the restrictive
eating, and then it eventuallyled her towards um
fruitarianism, a restrictivediet that relies almost entirely
on raw fruit.
So, how do we get here?
(04:00):
How do we get to the point wheresomeone is so clearly unwell and
yet the online group, becausethere's plenty of them, that
this sort of restrictive eating,fruitarianism, veganism, right?
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Oh, yeah, the Breatharians.
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
The Breatharians, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
I've got a story about the Breatharians later.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
Um, how you know that what they do, these groups,
is that as the persondeteriorates, instead of saying
to them, you look unwell, youlook emaciated, what they do is
say, Man, your collarbones lookamazing, you look extraordinary.
She looked shocking.
If you see pictures of her, shejust she looks like she was in a
(04:42):
concentration camp.
And yet the online forum thatshe has been getting her
information from have beensupporting her in her quests.
SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
You go, girl.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Yeah, you go, you're doing the right thing.
And of course, the people, theother voices around her, like
her parents, who were clearlyconcerned, um, those voices
don't get heard.
So people get more and more andmore and more and more down this
rabbit hole of thinking, andthen clearly they can't climb
out.
SPEAKER_03 (05:13):
I mean, you were saying that um that this lady
had a history of anorexia.
Yeah.
And look, I'm no expert on it,but I believe that anorexia is
actually it's not just aphysical condition, it's
actually a mental illness.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And in fact, um anorexia has thehighest mortality rate of any
mental illness.
It's really serious.
So, and it's it's quiteprevalent.
Well, here on the northernbeaches of Sydney, Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia, anorexiais quite prev um prevalent.
So the thing is how where doesit start and how much of this
(05:52):
can you lay at the feet of theseonline forums?
And I reckon quite a lot.
SPEAKER_03 (05:59):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
Because um, to our point around conspiracy theory,
because all sort of in the samearea, right?
How do you get into this reallyunhelpful thinking?
So, like with conspiracytheories, if it was 30 years
ago, you'd go down the pub andsay, Did you know the moon's
what is it?
The moon's flat.
Now, what is it?
The earth's flat.
Yes.
And the moon landing's faked.
(06:21):
So the moon's flat, and I gotthat confused.
And then someone would go,You're a dick, John.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
And don't well, they just say don't be ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Don't be ridiculous, John.
But now you get on an onlineforum and s there's going to be
someone or a group of peoplethat are going to support your
thinking.
So, but how do we get to thispoint where someone is so
emaciated and so unwell thatthey can't see the reality and
(06:50):
the danger of their situation?
And where does it start?
And as a society, because Ithink it's really serious.
I was at the gym a couple ofyears ago, and um the girls were
all involved in a very seriouschat around only eating meat.
That's all I well, that's theJordan Peterson thing, right?
So you get celebrities.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Is that paleo?
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
Oh, way way worse than paleo.
This is just meat.
SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
This is just meat.
The carnivore diet.
SPEAKER_02 (07:17):
The carnivore diet.
You just eat meat.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
And then there's I keep seeing all these things
online, you know, because for mysins, I'm I'm plugged into these
communities that tout some ofthese views.
But the thing is it starts, Ithink, it starts quite in a
small way, like, with the ideathat you should eat clean.
(07:41):
What if I say to you you shouldeat clean, what does that mean
to you?
SPEAKER_03 (07:45):
What does it mean?
Uh it means that I don't firstthought is I I don't eat food
with dirt in it.
Um but but what is only it wasthat simple.
You know, what it what's thedirt that we're talking about?
We're talking about additives,pesticides, um processed.
Processed food, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So so so processed.
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
Dairy is is not clean.
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
Dairy's not clean?
No.
Because it's well, I mean that'sa there's a no.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
It's not clean though.
You I don't know.
You're just not meant to eatdairy.
SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
And and for a very long time, I know when I I had
that um parathyroid tumour andno one knew what was wrong with
me, and I went to 77 alternativehealth practitioners, which is
what started me on the anti-altmed um journey, was they um
there was immediately they wouldtell me to stop eating gluten,
(08:34):
dairy.
Um gluten, dairy, coffee.
SPEAKER_03 (08:39):
Oh, you couldn't drink coffee?
No.
Oh, that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Gluten, dairy, coffee, um, carbs, grains.
There was a thing for a whilethat grains, they called it
grain brain, you shouldn't eatgrains.
So there's always been thisobsession with diet.
And I think the clean eatingmovement, which is fundamentally
don't eat anything processed,which is a heap of rubbish.
(09:02):
It's also very entitled.
It's a very entitled place tolive.
If you're only going to eat, youknow, you're only going to eat
organic and you're not going toeat processed, you'd have to
spend all day growing your ownvegetables, raising your own
poultry, presumably killing yourown cow, but then not milking
it.
SPEAKER_03 (09:21):
Or buying it from the organic store at about four
times the price.
What you get at bullies.
So if we're talking aboutanorexia, then it's kind of
opening the book on mentalillness.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
And and and I and I and I I guess I want to kind of
call that out or acknowledge itor or or or work out whether
we're referring to that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
In our environment, I know when our children were at
high school, there was anorexiareplenty.
Yeah, right?
In the high school.
There was loads of anorexia,right?
So and we we we we acknowledgethat anorexia is a very, very
difficult um condition to treat.
SPEAKER_03 (09:57):
And what makes it even more difficult, I uh as I
understand it, is that when theperson in question uh deprives
themselves of food and calories,yeah, um, then there is damage
that is done in the brain wherethey can no longer actually
think rationally.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Clearly, well you're deprived of calories and it
makes your thinking reallyirrational.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:21):
And and you also said that anorexia is the um the
biggest killer of you know theavailable options that there are
around having mental illness.
SPEAKER_02 (10:33):
So you know it has a it has a high mortality rate.
SPEAKER_03 (10:36):
It has a high mortality rate, and what is
completely confounding for thepeople surrounding the patient
um is this question of why can'tthey just eat something?
Yeah, that's right.
Clear rationality.
That's right.
You're going in a direction andit is a direction that has only
one ending, yeah.
And and and and and that isdeath, and you could turn that
(10:58):
around by eating something, andwhy don't you do it?
And and the big challenge, Ibelieve, is that when people
have that condition, theyactually can't think clearly.
They can't think critically.
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Look, there's the there's the th this is the word
ends up though.
And I guess what I'm moreinterested in is where does it
start?
Okay, how we get to it.
Because we are not specialists,we do not treat people that have
anorexia.
We do know, you know, as youknow, as I said, my children
when they're at school, ourchildren, there was a lot of it
in the in the environment.
And there is a it's more aroundthis disordered eating and how
(11:32):
we end up with these extremeconditions like anorexia, you
know, like fruitarianism, likeextreme veganism.
Um, how do we end up in theseplaces where people are
indulging in very, verydisordered eating?
And my opinion is it starts, itstarts small, yeah, and it
(11:55):
starts with opinions that areposited by people that know
fucking nothing and are on theinternet.
There was one yesterday on theinternet, for some s reason seed
oils are now the work of thedevil.
SPEAKER_03 (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, yo-yo.
Yo-yo, shush.
Yo-yo's unhappy about themention of seed oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Yo-yo, did you not like us talking about seed oils?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, apparently.
Yeah, it's okay.
She's she's on the podcast,aren't you, darling?
Um, yeah, seed oils are now thework of the devil.
And there was a thing yesterday,absolutely this, and she's an
American, so they sound reallycertain.
You know, Americans, she's supercertain.
And she was like, okay, you'vegot cellulite.
(12:35):
There was no cellulite before1970, right?
Cellulite has now appeared inour bodies because of seed oils.
And then she had some wacky seedoils are fats extracted from the
seeds of various plants.
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
Like flaxseed oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
And primarily comprise what is commonly
labelled as vegetable oil,right?
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
So like sunflower oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
So like sunflower seeds, crust the seeds.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Sounds like a recipe for cellulite.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
That's true.
That's right.
So at the moment, let's justsay, and maybe we think it's
quite an innocent thing, but allover the internet there are
people going, don't eat seedoils.
There's actually people inAmerica that will go into a
restaurant and start complainingand demanding that their food is
not cooked in seed oils.
Now there's no scientificevidence that seed oils are bad
at all.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
But this idea of seed oils then spreads and
disseminates through the onlinecommunity, gets into our
community, gets translated intopeople, then go to the
supermarket, not buy seed oil,talk to their friends, and we're
in this situation where seedoils are dangerous when they're
actually not.
But the voices that spread thisstuff are certain and they're
(13:52):
vociferous.
So yeah, go.
SPEAKER_03 (13:55):
And they're convincing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
Very convincing.
SPEAKER_03 (13:58):
And I think I've got a bit of a hypothesis about
where it begins.
Go.
Because um a lot of people areexposed to these stories about,
you know, seed oils and thatthat the body fat hates pink
salt, so have more pink salt andyou know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Oh, pink pink Himalayan Himalayan pink salt.
SPEAKER_03 (14:20):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03 (14:22):
So all of that stuff is out there, and not everybody
is taken in the same way.
If everybody is taken in thesame way, then we'd have a lot
more anorexia, we'd have a lotmore bulimia, right?
So it's not everybody, it issome people who are actually,
you might even say vulnerable.
You know, vulnerable.
It's almost like their immunity,their immune system is is weak
(14:43):
when it comes around to thecritical thinking.
And this information comes in.
So this information comes in.
Yeah.
Now, um one thing that I havecome to recognise in so many of
the stories that I have um, youknow, come across, been part of
when somebody has been affectedwith disordered eating, um, is
(15:05):
that there is a sense ofpersonal power that they latch
onto, which says, no one cantell me what I put in my mouth,
right?
No one can tell me to eat seedoil, or no one can tell me, you
know, to eat processed food.
Processed food or you know, soI'm in control.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I'm in control.
SPEAKER_03 (15:25):
I'm in control.
And and my thesis, and and youknow, again, forgive me, you
know, I'm I'm ignorant about allof this, you know, my my area of
expertise is is seeing howpeople create drama for
themselves, right?
And so um, what is it thatpeople latch on to?
What do they hold?
What do they believe?
What are they, you know, what dothey fight for in relationships
(15:49):
that are sometimes not in theirbest interests?
You know, why do some peoplecreate drama when winning that
particular drama is actuallyreally bad for them?
And I think that in somerelationships, you know, um uh
daughters with their mothers,you know, sons with their
fathers, that they'll get anidea that husbands and wives.
(16:10):
Husbands and wives, yeah, okay,veganism.
You know, I'm going to be avegan.
And then the whole family isthen affected by that decision.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Oh yeah, yeah.
So mum says, look, there's somepower.
There's some power in it.
Yeah, yeah, true, true, true,true.
SPEAKER_03 (16:22):
I'm making a bologné sauce tonight.
Can't you just eat the bolognaisauce tonight?
I can't.
Yeah.
You know, you're not taking meseriously.
You're not taking my beliefs andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah
seriously.
Now, it could be that that isabsolutely certain.
You know, that that that that'sabsolutely true.
Um What's true?
That um that it is a a deeplyheld, you know, ethical position
(16:46):
that somebody holds that they'renot, you know, that that they're
not going to ever eat animalsever again.
It could be that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:53):
What I it could be that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:55):
What it what it feels like to me is that it's
just one of many instances whereyou have an individual who gets
to assert their power in theworld by saying, No, I'm not
going to eat that.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Yeah, and maybe if you're if you feel powerless in
other areas, then it's quitenice to at least I can control
that.
And of course, the the the issueis is that the validity of the
choice in the first place isoften wrong.
So for instance, if you if youat all follow dietary advice uh
(17:28):
as I do, not I mean I follow itfor purient interest, I don't
take it, of course.
They will tell you to stay awayfrom seed oils, but you can have
coconut oil.
Coconut oil is just apparentlyamazing for you.
SPEAKER_03 (17:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
Um, and everyone's drinking coconut water.
I don't know why, but they areanyway.
SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
I like coconut water.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
Why?
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
If it's cold.
Yeah, well, I don't I don't muchlike it unless it's absolutely
freezing, but when it'sfreezing, I find it quite quite
refreshing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Oh, okay.
Fair enough.
Um so the thing is that there'sthis this is now a
juxtaposition.
Seed oil's bad, coconut oilgood.
Good, right?
Coconut oil.
And then in Coconut oil?
What?
What do you what where have youbeen?
Under a rock?
Everyone talks about it.
They're constantly rubbing it onthe inside of their mouths,
putting it in everything.
SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
Ah, right.
Coconut oil.
Oh, yeah, and there's thatspecial coconut oil that's got a
certain kind of somethingomega-3 in it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
So it's it's marriedly amazing for you.
Yeah, that's right.
So into this, into the fray,yeah, into this um online fray
in this sort of cultural umstouch between, say, seed oils
and coconut oil, say, um, comesthe Heart Foundation here in
Australia.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:41):
Now the Heart Foundation will tell you that to
absolutely avoid coconut oil,palm oil, and butter, guess why?
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Because it's got a lot of fat in it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Saturated fat.
Saturated fat.
Told you repeatedly, and youignore me.
And to eat extra virgin oliveoil, canola oil, sunflower oil,
which is a seed oil, peanut oiland avocado oil.
These oils contain healthy fatsand are suitable for most types
of cooking, right?
Now then what happens?
So you get some, you get sort ofsome science enters the fray.
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
And then what happens is people go, because
now we've got all this sort ofum don't trust the government,
don't trust big government,don't trust big pharma.
So they enter the fray, andeveryone goes, Well, why would
you listen to the HeartFoundation?
SPEAKER_03 (19:27):
Okay, so that sounds like pseudoscience has entered
the fray, not science.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Well, sci science, Heart Foundation is science.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Heart Foundation, well, Heart Foundation at at the
core of the positions that theHart Foundation takes is
science.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
Yeah.
And the rest of it'spseudoscience.
SPEAKER_03 (19:46):
It is it is understood because the people
who are describing the, youknow, the the behavior of these
particular fats in the body,etc.
They are scientists.
Yeah.
I think whenever scientificnarratives fall into the mouths
of people who are actually notscientists, then it's going to
be distorted.
Scientific method is create ahypothesis and then try to prove
(20:11):
yourself wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
So what are you saying?
SPEAKER_03 (20:13):
Who's So what I'm saying?
I I don't know, maybe I'm justbeing too precise around the
language.
You said science enters thefray.
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
It does in the form of heart foundation, but we
don't trust the science.
We want to go towards people whojust sound certain and tell us
something that sounds moreinteresting and definitive.
It sounds like maybe I won't getany more cellulite because I'm
rubbing coconut oil on it.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah.
But but what I'm what I'msuggesting to you is that that
that particular that when thatdynamic emerges, right, it
doesn't just emerge for theperson who is then going to stop
eating seed oils or, you know,you know, become a vegan.
It becomes part of theirrelationship with the people who
(20:57):
are around them with whom theywant to assert their own
independence.
So it actually becomes a statusbattle.
And in this instance, it's astatus battle around food.
You know, other people find waysof having status battles, you
know, the need to be rightaround other things.
SPEAKER_02 (21:12):
Yeah, so okay, so what I'm saying is that there's
this I don't know what you'resaying.
So you're saying science comesin, gives the actual facts
around it, which is don't eatcoconut oil, don't eat butter
instead.
And then the person goes, No,I'd rather listen to this person
on the internet over here thanan influencer that's saying, No,
don't eat seed oils because theygive you cellulite and they
(21:34):
screw your brain or wreck yourhormones.
SPEAKER_03 (21:35):
Yeah, I have the right to choose my influencers.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah, that's right.
So, but and then you get intothe area of false equivalence.
So you've got the HeartFoundation, right?
Scientists.
Who are generally you know, whoactually will test their own
hypothesis.
SPEAKER_03 (21:49):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
And then you've got people that are just, you know,
getting a kernel of informationand then sounding super certain,
like I only eat meat.
I will only eat meat becausevegetables, I I've heard this as
well, are really toxic.
SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
And so this are out.
So so so this is the thing.
It seems to us very obvious thatthere's a hidden agenda, right?
Some people will say only eatthese kind of you know, modified
coconut oils, probably becausethey have a business that makes
money out of it.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Exactly, exactly.
Exactly.
But then the result of this, soyou've got these people that are
touting this nonsense, and theend result of it is tragically a
beautiful 27-year-old girl whohas lost her life in a hotel
room in Bali because of the liesthat are being told by people
(22:40):
who are probably sellingsomething.
At the original point, they'reprobably selling something.
We know that most old medpractitioners are selling
supplements.
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Yeah, and if they're not, if if they're not sell
selling something directly, thenthey are selling something by
degree, you know, the you know,the monetization of their their
influencer channels.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Exactly, exactly.
And the more sort of, you know,the more definitive you are, the
more you're floating around inin some sort of, you know,
unwashed linen, you know, withsandal feet and a bracelet on
your left ankle, you know, withyour tan skin, standing on the
end of a jetty, chewing on achop, raw chop, with some liver.
(23:23):
They really like eating rawliver and bits of butter.
SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
You're talking about liver king.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
No, this is this is the thin, weirdly, but those
sort of smooth skinned womenthat do it as well.
It's just everywhere.
But the problem is it's aproblem, it's a big problem.
And how do we counter it?
Because people die, and it'sunfair that she was obviously
(23:51):
vulnerable, she obviously hadterrible disordered eating, and
then she gets into this, youknow, and I do have issues with
the yoga communities, some ofthem are great, some of the yoga
communities are great, some ofthem start to tout some really
dangerous views, and and oftenin these communities arises this
(24:13):
clean eating, spirituallyenlightened, um keep your you
know, there's there'sphilosophies around it that are
really, really dangerous.
And I have issues with that aswell.
So what do we do?
What do we do so that we canstart to sorry, do you want to
go back to the yoga thing that Idon't know?
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No, I'm I'm I'm I am interestedin the question of what do we
do.
What do we do?
What do we do?
Um I mean I do this, I do thispodcast.
Yeah, okay, but okay, who areyou talking about?
Are you talking about um theperson at the centre of the
story?
Which is, you know, what happenswhen we notice that we start to
(24:52):
get, you know, seduced by No,because the girl in the hotel
room, she's the end of thestory.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Okay.
She's the end of the narrative.
She's just before she's justbefore the full stop.
SPEAKER_03 (25:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:05):
So somewhere way, way back, that's where it
started.
Now we don't know about herchildhood.
We don't know why we don'treally know why people develop
anorexia, except that it isvery, very exacerci shush yo-yo.
It is very, very exacerbated byum online forums.
We absolutely know that.
Yeah.
And the objectification of womenand the fact that women need to
(25:27):
look really thin.
And we know that.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
But but but but you say, what dowe do?
SPEAKER_02 (25:31):
What do we do?
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Um Who's we in your in your question?
Are you talking about aboutabout the person?
Are you talking about the thefamily of the people?
Are we talking about the widersociety around the people?
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
I'm talking no, because I don't know that
person.
I don't know about her, thedynamic of her family.
SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
Okay, so you're not talking about the the patient.
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
She's the end result.
SPEAKER_03 (25:51):
Right.
So when you say what do we do asa society.
What do we do as a society?
Yeah, what do we do?
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:58):
How do we just start to counter these dangerous
views?
And and in in my mind, it'saround the fact that we don't
even get as a society, as aculture, how truly dangerous
these um opinions are and howthey can start off very, very
(26:24):
small, as to my point by theword clean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eat clean.
SPEAKER_03 (26:29):
And I I can't I can't get away from the thought
process that says that a lot ofpeople are exposed to these
lies, these distortions, youknow, they're explo they're
exposed to the the potential tobe exploited.
Yeah.
But not everybody is.
Correct.
And that is correct.
So perhaps I am not.
(26:51):
Yeah, yeah.
To answer your question, whatcan we as a society do is that
we can help people to understandhow they will sometimes grab
hold of something and takeownership of it, like a
self-destructing disorderedeating plan approach.
They will take that and theywill actually internalize it,
(27:15):
and they will they will theywill plant the seed within
themselves and they will waterthat seed and they will grow a
perspective, a distortedperspective in order that they
have power in the relationshipto the earth.
No, that's the thing that Ithink people don't know.
People think that disorderedeating is about disordered
eating when actually I thinkit's about it's about what
(27:38):
happens to the person who issusceptible to it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:42):
Yeah, but we can't there's always been vulnerable
people, haven't there?
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
And they have all and they had there for all the
vulnerable people they've beenin the world, there have been
people lining up to takeadvantage of it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
True.
There's always been snake oilsalesmen, right?
Yeah.
That you know, from the from daydot, someone has been trying to
sell someone.
SPEAKER_03 (28:01):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Some someone has been trying to sell someone else
something.
Yes.
It has no efficacy.
That's right.
It's old as time.
SPEAKER_03 (28:08):
Or not only that it has no efficacy, but it could
actually do damage.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
It could do damage.
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
You know, with one of the oldest stories in the
book, um, is um is Adam and Evein the in the garden.
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
You're back at the Bible! How did we get into the
Bible?
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
No, no, no.
I I was I was I was talkingabout this from um a Quranic uh
perspective, because there is anAdam and Eve in the uh in in
Islamic religion as well.
Well I'm just saying it's theold story, right?
Oh but what about it's the oldstory of here's the apple, eat
this apple, and you will becomeenlightened.
And actually, um there was a bitof a m a mistake made.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and and we know um you know,there's just you know, endless
pictures from the the lastcentury and the century before
of people selling stuff, right?
SPEAKER_03 (28:55):
Yeah, you know, like what well people literally snake
oil.
Literally snake oil is an oil,yeah.
Presumably made out of a snakeor parts of a snake that was
supposed to do something goodfor you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:08):
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (29:09):
Um the uh the mystic, you know, we saw on a
television show the other othernight, you know, the the mystics
that were travelling around theworld in the late 19th century
saying that they couldcommunicate with the dead.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they're still out there.
SPEAKER_03 (29:23):
And they are still out there.
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
And so it I guess we arrive we always arrive back,
sort of, at the same point, isthat people are not armed with
critical thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Because if they were armed with critical thinking,
then they would see somethingonline that said, you know, eat
clean, don't eat seed oil, doeat coconut oil or whatever,
only eat raw meat, or don't eatgluten.
I mean, the gluten thing isnuts.
The amount of people that don'teat bread because it's got
(29:56):
gluten is nuts when they're notceliac.
It's mental.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
But it gets a life of its own.
It's like matcha.
SPEAKER_03 (30:03):
That's right.
People get to commercialise it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
You've got the whole, you know, the gluten-free
aisle, the gluten free shelf.
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
And apparently, matcha.
You drink too much matcha tea,and it's actually quite bad for
you because but it's got thehealth halo over it.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
Oh, yeah, because it's just tea and it's um green.
It's it's green tea and it'sit's it's in everything.
You slow acting caffeine.
SPEAKER_02 (30:21):
You can get matcha everything now, but apparently
it's not that good for you, andyou've got to be very careful
about your consumption.
But it's got the health halo.
So much has the health halo.
Fruitarianism would have had thehealth halo.
It sounds right, right?
You want to be thin, you want tobe healthy, so you're only going
to eat fruit.
I mean, there's a s a ring toit, isn't there?
SPEAKER_03 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, and and there was the extreme case of
the Bretharians.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
What tell me about the Breatharians?
SPEAKER_03 (30:46):
And the Bretharians were was an order that basically
said that um that human beingscould could live on just breath.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Yeah, it makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (30:53):
Um, you know, a little bit of water with a
little bit of uh lemon juice orsomething like that.
But that was it, no food.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Uh and that's right, there were those girls that died
in a tent in Scotland.
Yo-yo, excuse me, you've neverbeen to Scotland.
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
Anyway, so that was the that was the the Breatharian
um um approach, the cult um wasled by a gentleman who was
profiting from his position asthe head of the Bretharians, but
they followed him um one day andand he was he went into
McDonald's and was buyingcheeseburgers or something like
that.
So so yes, um there are manystories of people who will
(31:28):
exploit exploit the vulnerable.
And so your question, how do weas a society stop that from
happening?
SPEAKER_02 (31:34):
Well Well, it really upset me the story of that girl.
It's so unnecessary.
Her parents must have just beenbeside themselves, the poor
things.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So we can't we can't stop the the the horse is
bolted, the horse is outrightwith in terms of misinformation
and disinformation on theinternet.
We can't get it back now, canwe?
It's gone, it's happened, andand it's just a big pile on now.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
Okay, so so so what you're doing with the podcast is
you're helping people to to beable to examine their thinking.
So that if they do want to takesomething on, if they do want to
take a new exercise regime on,or a new dietary plan, or a new
relationship on, what you wantthem to do is to look at it
critically and to ask, is thisin my best interest or
(32:22):
something?
Yeah, and look for somescientific studies and look for
look for some scientificstudies.
And I guess the thing that I'madding to that, and perhaps you
do this implicitly anyway, is tonotice what power does embracing
disordered eating or you know,the list, what power does that
(32:46):
give me in my primaryrelationships?
If eating clean makes me aspecial one at the dinner table,
yeah, yeah.
And I get power because of that,yeah, if I get power from that
and I recognise it, then ideallyyou'd go, okay, well, maybe
maybe I'm excited about thisthis clean eating thing because
(33:06):
it it helps me to have you knowget one up over mum or my
brother's.
SPEAKER_02 (33:10):
And also the thing is it's it's it's it's all of it
is in service of being thin.
All of it is in service ofwomen, because it's mainly women
that do the clean eating.
SPEAKER_03 (33:19):
Because what is w when a woman is thin, what does
she have more of?
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
Attention.
What?
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah, more attention.
SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:25):
Which gives someone a sense of power.
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
And you're fitting into a norm, right?
So yeah, look, there's I I wouldadvise anybody who listens to
this podcast to really apply acritical eye to any claim, any
nutritional claim that is made,any claim about a supplement
that is made, um, any claim atall which has a large promise to
(33:52):
it, because we know that onething that you eat or one thing
that you drink or one thing thatyou take cannot possibly give
you all the benefits and theresults that generally they
promise.
So if something has a very broadpromise to it, that's when you
start the process of going, hangon, it's gonna make me thin,
(34:14):
it's gonna balance my hormones,it's gonna balance my my energy,
it's gonna boost my immunesystem, it's gonna help my
cardiovascular health, you know,it's gonna I'm gonna have no
cellulite and I'm just gonna beamazing and my skin's gonna be
super clear and it's gonnarestore the elasticity and my
joints won't hurt.
If it says that, it's probably aheap of crap.
(34:36):
Right.
So, interestingly enough, I justdid this TikTok on on alkaline
water, which is very, verypopular because there's this
perception that Sydney drinkingwater is somehow dangerous and
full of heavy metals, which isjust it is the safest drinking
water.
SPEAKER_03 (34:51):
Yeah, Sydney water's great.
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Like go to Bali, go to India, go to somewhere where
you've genuinely got a problem.
But this middle class entitlednotion that we have to drink
special water, anyway.
That TikTok I did ho had over10,000 views, and I think it's
because people actually areinterested in countering some of
these myths.
So um that's all I really wantedto say this week.
(35:16):
I feel terrible about her, andso I think we should say her
name because I feel bad for herand bad for her family.
Her name was Carolina Kryzjak.
Yep.
Yep.
So she's not going home to herfamily, and they're going to
mourn her forever becausesomehow, someone, somewhere,
(35:39):
started to tell her a lie, andthe lie never got stopped.
And we, as a community of peoplethat believe in critical
thinking, we have to reallystart countering these myths
because it's dangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
And that's what I want to say.
David, anything else?
SPEAKER_03 (35:56):
Yeah, and uh and the other it it it it's that other
dimension that's got me thinkingthis morning.
Yes, if it sounds too good to betrue, then it probably isn't
true.
That's the misinformation thatwe need to deal with.
But perhaps we can also helppeople understand their
(36:18):
attraction to misinformation.
Yeah, sure.
And if that if that if that ifthat's yeah, it's a good point.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
It's a really good point.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
If that attraction gives them something, then they
will go further and faster inthat direction.
SPEAKER_02 (36:28):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
And it's not just about it's not just about
disordered eating, it's alsoabout you know what people do
with their finances.
It's also about conspiracythinking.
It's also about conspiracythinking, it's what you're
doing.
Yeah, 100%.
It's a i it it i it's all ofthose things.
So if um if the promise ofsomething new is starting to to
to trigger a thought process,which is you know, I'll be able
(36:50):
to achieve so much more, or Iwill have you know more power in
this relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
I don't think people think that.
I think that's unconscious.
People are not gonna think I'llhave more power, they're just
gonna think I'm gonna look greatand everyone will want to be
like me.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
Okay, well I'm that's And no one's gonna tell
me what to do.
Okay, and and all of thosethings they they they they seem
to be the downstream umbenefits.
Um the downstream benefit ofthose things is that you have
more power.
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
Yeah, but they don't know.
That's unconscious.
They're unaware of that, right?
Let's try and bring it into theconsciousness, correct?
SPEAKER_03 (37:25):
So I guess I'm suggesting that people uh bring
into the conscious the powerdynamics that get altered when
they take on board you knowtrue, good point untrue
information.
SPEAKER_02 (37:35):
I thought my finish was better than yours, but I'm
I'm gonna leave it in, I'm gonnaleave it in because I'm very
egalitarian.
Um thanks for your time today,David.
SPEAKER_03 (37:43):
You're welcome.
I hope I contributed something.
SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
Um thank you, Harrison.
Um, thank you, Yo-Yo, forbarking pointlessly through
that.
Um Yoyo, I mean, Ryder has beena good boy because he's been for
a run this morning, so he's nowhaving a rest.
Um so thank you so much fortuning in, um, listeners.
Wherever you are in the world,stay safe, stay well, keep your
critical thinking hats on.
(38:05):
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
(38:26):
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
(38:48):
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
(39:09):
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at Shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(39:29):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of the turbanage,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my butt I did go throughtopics to find it.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,Sydney, New South Wales,
Australia.
It is the beginning of October,so we are in the middle of
(01:08):
spring here, and it is abeautiful day.
And later on I'll be going downto DY Beach and having a swim.
Today I am joined by David.
SPEAKER_03 (01:18):
Morning.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
Morning, how are you?
SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
I'm very well.
I'm not quite sure why I'm heretoday.
Because I've asked you to be.
Well, that's right.
I don't know what we're going totalk about today.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
So interestingly enough, uh over the last couple
of days, people have said to me,Why do you why are you
podcasting and why are you doingthe TikToks?
And um you know, because it isquite a time-consuming thing.
And I had to really think aboutit.
Why am I doing this?
And then a couple of things havecome across my feed in the last
(01:50):
week um which have reconfirmedthe importance of why we of the
skeptical debunking community dowhat we do.
So I thought we'd talk aboutthose two things today.
So the first is a story of a27-year-old woman who died of
(02:11):
starvation, which isastonishing, isn't it?
In a a Bali hotel room.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
Oh, just the lady that ate the fruit.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
Yeah.
So um at the time of her death,she weighed 22 kilos.
I know.
And she had been What?
Yeah.
She had been following what theycall a fruitarian diet.
And a fruitarian diet is a veryum a very restrictive way of
(02:42):
eating, and as you can tell bythe name, you only eat fruit.
Did you say that she was twentyShe was she weighed twenty-two
kilos.
SPEAKER_03 (02:50):
Um that's that's that's impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
Yeah, I know, right.
And when she checked in to theto the place in Bali, um to the
hotel, the staff noted that shewas emaciated.
Um so she had sunken eyes andprotruding collarbones, um, and
she'd grown so weak that oneevening she had to be escorted
(03:16):
back to her room by the nightclerk.
Now, the thing is that at thetime of her death, she was
suffering from osteoporosis andan albumin deficiency, which are
both linked to prolongednutrition.
And she had a history of this.
So um in her teenage years she'dalready struggled with anorexia,
(03:38):
and then when she was in theUnited Kingdom, she developed an
interest in yoga and veganism,right?
So we're just getting furtherand further in the restrictive
eating, and then it eventuallyled her towards um
fruitarianism, a restrictivediet that relies almost entirely
on raw fruit.
So, how do we get here?
(04:00):
How do we get to the point wheresomeone is so clearly unwell and
yet the online group, becausethere's plenty of them, that
this sort of restrictive eating,fruitarianism, veganism, right?
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Oh, yeah, the Breatharians.
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
The Breatharians, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
I've got a story about the Breatharians later.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (04:22):
Um, how you know that what they do, these groups,
is that as the persondeteriorates, instead of saying
to them, you look unwell, youlook emaciated, what they do is
say, Man, your collarbones lookamazing, you look extraordinary.
She looked shocking.
If you see pictures of her, shejust she looks like she was in a
(04:42):
concentration camp.
And yet the online forum thatshe has been getting her
information from have beensupporting her in her quests.
SPEAKER_00 (04:52):
You go, girl.
SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
Yeah, you go, you're doing the right thing.
And of course, the people, theother voices around her, like
her parents, who were clearlyconcerned, um, those voices
don't get heard.
So people get more and more andmore and more and more down this
rabbit hole of thinking, andthen clearly they can't climb
out.
SPEAKER_03 (05:13):
I mean, you were saying that um that this lady
had a history of anorexia.
Yeah.
And look, I'm no expert on it,but I believe that anorexia is
actually it's not just aphysical condition, it's
actually a mental illness.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And in fact, um anorexia has thehighest mortality rate of any
mental illness.
It's really serious.
So, and it's it's quiteprevalent.
Well, here on the northernbeaches of Sydney, Sydney, New
South Wales, Australia, anorexiais quite prev um prevalent.
So the thing is how where doesit start and how much of this
(05:52):
can you lay at the feet of theseonline forums?
And I reckon quite a lot.
SPEAKER_03 (05:59):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
Because um, to our point around conspiracy theory,
because all sort of in the samearea, right?
How do you get into this reallyunhelpful thinking?
So, like with conspiracytheories, if it was 30 years
ago, you'd go down the pub andsay, Did you know the moon's
what is it?
The moon's flat.
Now, what is it?
The earth's flat.
Yes.
And the moon landing's faked.
(06:21):
So the moon's flat, and I gotthat confused.
And then someone would go,You're a dick, John.
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
And don't well, they just say don't be ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Don't be ridiculous, John.
But now you get on an onlineforum and s there's going to be
someone or a group of peoplethat are going to support your
thinking.
So, but how do we get to thispoint where someone is so
emaciated and so unwell thatthey can't see the reality and
(06:50):
the danger of their situation?
And where does it start?
And as a society, because Ithink it's really serious.
I was at the gym a couple ofyears ago, and um the girls were
all involved in a very seriouschat around only eating meat.
That's all I well, that's theJordan Peterson thing, right?
So you get celebrities.
SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Is that paleo?
SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
Oh, way way worse than paleo.
This is just meat.
SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
This is just meat.
The carnivore diet.
SPEAKER_02 (07:17):
The carnivore diet.
You just eat meat.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
And then there's I keep seeing all these things
online, you know, because for mysins, I'm I'm plugged into these
communities that tout some ofthese views.
But the thing is it starts, Ithink, it starts quite in a
small way, like, with the ideathat you should eat clean.
(07:41):
What if I say to you you shouldeat clean, what does that mean
to you?
SPEAKER_03 (07:45):
What does it mean?
Uh it means that I don't firstthought is I I don't eat food
with dirt in it.
Um but but what is only it wasthat simple.
You know, what it what's thedirt that we're talking about?
We're talking about additives,pesticides, um processed.
Processed food, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So so so processed.
SPEAKER_02 (08:03):
Dairy is is not clean.
SPEAKER_03 (08:05):
Dairy's not clean?
No.
Because it's well, I mean that'sa there's a no.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
It's not clean though.
You I don't know.
You're just not meant to eatdairy.
SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:14):
And and for a very long time, I know when I I had
that um parathyroid tumour andno one knew what was wrong with
me, and I went to 77 alternativehealth practitioners, which is
what started me on the anti-altmed um journey, was they um
there was immediately they wouldtell me to stop eating gluten,
(08:34):
dairy.
Um gluten, dairy, coffee.
SPEAKER_03 (08:39):
Oh, you couldn't drink coffee?
No.
Oh, that's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
Gluten, dairy, coffee, um, carbs, grains.
There was a thing for a whilethat grains, they called it
grain brain, you shouldn't eatgrains.
So there's always been thisobsession with diet.
And I think the clean eatingmovement, which is fundamentally
don't eat anything processed,which is a heap of rubbish.
(09:02):
It's also very entitled.
It's a very entitled place tolive.
If you're only going to eat, youknow, you're only going to eat
organic and you're not going toeat processed, you'd have to
spend all day growing your ownvegetables, raising your own
poultry, presumably killing yourown cow, but then not milking
it.
SPEAKER_03 (09:21):
Or buying it from the organic store at about four
times the price.
What you get at bullies.
So if we're talking aboutanorexia, then it's kind of
opening the book on mentalillness.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
And and and I and I and I I guess I want to kind of
call that out or acknowledge itor or or or work out whether
we're referring to that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:41):
In our environment, I know when our children were at
high school, there was anorexiareplenty.
Yeah, right?
In the high school.
There was loads of anorexia,right?
So and we we we we acknowledgethat anorexia is a very, very
difficult um condition to treat.
SPEAKER_03 (09:57):
And what makes it even more difficult, I uh as I
understand it, is that when theperson in question uh deprives
themselves of food and calories,yeah, um, then there is damage
that is done in the brain wherethey can no longer actually
think rationally.
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Clearly, well you're deprived of calories and it
makes your thinking reallyirrational.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:21):
And and you also said that anorexia is the um the
biggest killer of you know theavailable options that there are
around having mental illness.
SPEAKER_02 (10:33):
So you know it has a it has a high mortality rate.
SPEAKER_03 (10:36):
It has a high mortality rate, and what is
completely confounding for thepeople surrounding the patient
um is this question of why can'tthey just eat something?
Yeah, that's right.
Clear rationality.
That's right.
You're going in a direction andit is a direction that has only
one ending, yeah.
And and and and and that isdeath, and you could turn that
(10:58):
around by eating something, andwhy don't you do it?
And and the big challenge, Ibelieve, is that when people
have that condition, theyactually can't think clearly.
They can't think critically.
SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
Look, there's the there's the th this is the word
ends up though.
And I guess what I'm moreinterested in is where does it
start?
Okay, how we get to it.
Because we are not specialists,we do not treat people that have
anorexia.
We do know, you know, as youknow, as I said, my children
when they're at school, ourchildren, there was a lot of it
in the in the environment.
And there is a it's more aroundthis disordered eating and how
(11:32):
we end up with these extremeconditions like anorexia, you
know, like fruitarianism, likeextreme veganism.
Um, how do we end up in theseplaces where people are
indulging in very, verydisordered eating?
And my opinion is it starts, itstarts small, yeah, and it
(11:55):
starts with opinions that areposited by people that know
fucking nothing and are on theinternet.
There was one yesterday on theinternet, for some s reason seed
oils are now the work of thedevil.
SPEAKER_03 (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, yo-yo.
Yo-yo, shush.
Yo-yo's unhappy about themention of seed oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Yo-yo, did you not like us talking about seed oils?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, apparently.
Yeah, it's okay.
She's she's on the podcast,aren't you, darling?
Um, yeah, seed oils are now thework of the devil.
And there was a thing yesterday,absolutely this, and she's an
American, so they sound reallycertain.
You know, Americans, she's supercertain.
And she was like, okay, you'vegot cellulite.
(12:35):
There was no cellulite before1970, right?
Cellulite has now appeared inour bodies because of seed oils.
And then she had some wacky seedoils are fats extracted from the
seeds of various plants.
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
Like flaxseed oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
And primarily comprise what is commonly
labelled as vegetable oil,right?
SPEAKER_03 (12:57):
So like sunflower oil.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
So like sunflower seeds, crust the seeds.
SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
Sounds like a recipe for cellulite.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
That's true.
That's right.
So at the moment, let's justsay, and maybe we think it's
quite an innocent thing, but allover the internet there are
people going, don't eat seedoils.
There's actually people inAmerica that will go into a
restaurant and start complainingand demanding that their food is
not cooked in seed oils.
Now there's no scientificevidence that seed oils are bad
at all.
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
But this idea of seed oils then spreads and
disseminates through the onlinecommunity, gets into our
community, gets translated intopeople, then go to the
supermarket, not buy seed oil,talk to their friends, and we're
in this situation where seedoils are dangerous when they're
actually not.
But the voices that spread thisstuff are certain and they're
(13:52):
vociferous.
So yeah, go.
SPEAKER_03 (13:55):
And they're convincing.
SPEAKER_02 (13:56):
Very convincing.
SPEAKER_03 (13:58):
And I think I've got a bit of a hypothesis about
where it begins.
Go.
Because um a lot of people areexposed to these stories about,
you know, seed oils and thatthat the body fat hates pink
salt, so have more pink salt andyou know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Oh, pink pink Himalayan Himalayan pink salt.
SPEAKER_03 (14:20):
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03 (14:22):
So all of that stuff is out there, and not everybody
is taken in the same way.
If everybody is taken in thesame way, then we'd have a lot
more anorexia, we'd have a lotmore bulimia, right?
So it's not everybody, it issome people who are actually,
you might even say vulnerable.
You know, vulnerable.
It's almost like their immunity,their immune system is is weak
(14:43):
when it comes around to thecritical thinking.
And this information comes in.
So this information comes in.
Yeah.
Now, um one thing that I havecome to recognise in so many of
the stories that I have um, youknow, come across, been part of
when somebody has been affectedwith disordered eating, um, is
(15:05):
that there is a sense ofpersonal power that they latch
onto, which says, no one cantell me what I put in my mouth,
right?
No one can tell me to eat seedoil, or no one can tell me, you
know, to eat processed food.
Processed food or you know, soI'm in control.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
I'm in control.
SPEAKER_03 (15:25):
I'm in control.
And and my thesis, and and youknow, again, forgive me, you
know, I'm I'm ignorant about allof this, you know, my my area of
expertise is is seeing howpeople create drama for
themselves, right?
And so um, what is it thatpeople latch on to?
What do they hold?
What do they believe?
What are they, you know, what dothey fight for in relationships
(15:49):
that are sometimes not in theirbest interests?
You know, why do some peoplecreate drama when winning that
particular drama is actuallyreally bad for them?
And I think that in somerelationships, you know, um uh
daughters with their mothers,you know, sons with their
fathers, that they'll get anidea that husbands and wives.
(16:10):
Husbands and wives, yeah, okay,veganism.
You know, I'm going to be avegan.
And then the whole family isthen affected by that decision.
SPEAKER_02 (16:17):
Oh yeah, yeah.
So mum says, look, there's somepower.
There's some power in it.
Yeah, yeah, true, true, true,true.
SPEAKER_03 (16:22):
I'm making a bologné sauce tonight.
Can't you just eat the bolognaisauce tonight?
I can't.
Yeah.
You know, you're not taking meseriously.
You're not taking my beliefs andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah
seriously.
Now, it could be that that isabsolutely certain.
You know, that that that that'sabsolutely true.
Um What's true?
That um that it is a a deeplyheld, you know, ethical position
(16:46):
that somebody holds that they'renot, you know, that that they're
not going to ever eat animalsever again.
It could be that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:53):
What I it could be that.
SPEAKER_03 (16:55):
What it what it feels like to me is that it's
just one of many instances whereyou have an individual who gets
to assert their power in theworld by saying, No, I'm not
going to eat that.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Yeah, and maybe if you're if you feel powerless in
other areas, then it's quitenice to at least I can control
that.
And of course, the the the issueis is that the validity of the
choice in the first place isoften wrong.
So for instance, if you if youat all follow dietary advice uh
(17:28):
as I do, not I mean I follow itfor purient interest, I don't
take it, of course.
They will tell you to stay awayfrom seed oils, but you can have
coconut oil.
Coconut oil is just apparentlyamazing for you.
SPEAKER_03 (17:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:41):
Um, and everyone's drinking coconut water.
I don't know why, but they areanyway.
SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
I like coconut water.
SPEAKER_02 (17:47):
Why?
SPEAKER_03 (17:47):
If it's cold.
Yeah, well, I don't I don't muchlike it unless it's absolutely
freezing, but when it'sfreezing, I find it quite quite
refreshing.
SPEAKER_02 (17:53):
Oh, okay.
Fair enough.
Um so the thing is that there'sthis this is now a
juxtaposition.
Seed oil's bad, coconut oilgood.
Good, right?
Coconut oil.
And then in Coconut oil?
What?
What do you what where have youbeen?
Under a rock?
Everyone talks about it.
They're constantly rubbing it onthe inside of their mouths,
putting it in everything.
SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
Ah, right.
Coconut oil.
Oh, yeah, and there's thatspecial coconut oil that's got a
certain kind of somethingomega-3 in it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
So it's it's marriedly amazing for you.
Yeah, that's right.
So into this, into the fray,yeah, into this um online fray
in this sort of cultural umstouch between, say, seed oils
and coconut oil, say, um, comesthe Heart Foundation here in
Australia.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:41):
Now the Heart Foundation will tell you that to
absolutely avoid coconut oil,palm oil, and butter, guess why?
SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Because it's got a lot of fat in it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
Saturated fat.
Saturated fat.
Told you repeatedly, and youignore me.
And to eat extra virgin oliveoil, canola oil, sunflower oil,
which is a seed oil, peanut oiland avocado oil.
These oils contain healthy fatsand are suitable for most types
of cooking, right?
Now then what happens?
So you get some, you get sort ofsome science enters the fray.
SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
And then what happens is people go, because
now we've got all this sort ofum don't trust the government,
don't trust big government,don't trust big pharma.
So they enter the fray, andeveryone goes, Well, why would
you listen to the HeartFoundation?
SPEAKER_03 (19:27):
Okay, so that sounds like pseudoscience has entered
the fray, not science.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Well, sci science, Heart Foundation is science.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
Heart Foundation, well, Heart Foundation at at the
core of the positions that theHart Foundation takes is
science.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
Yeah.
And the rest of it'spseudoscience.
SPEAKER_03 (19:46):
It is it is understood because the people
who are describing the, youknow, the the behavior of these
particular fats in the body,etc.
They are scientists.
Yeah.
I think whenever scientificnarratives fall into the mouths
of people who are actually notscientists, then it's going to
be distorted.
Scientific method is create ahypothesis and then try to prove
(20:11):
yourself wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
So what are you saying?
SPEAKER_03 (20:13):
Who's So what I'm saying?
I I don't know, maybe I'm justbeing too precise around the
language.
You said science enters thefray.
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
It does in the form of heart foundation, but we
don't trust the science.
We want to go towards people whojust sound certain and tell us
something that sounds moreinteresting and definitive.
It sounds like maybe I won't getany more cellulite because I'm
rubbing coconut oil on it.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah.
But but what I'm what I'msuggesting to you is that that
that particular that when thatdynamic emerges, right, it
doesn't just emerge for theperson who is then going to stop
eating seed oils or, you know,you know, become a vegan.
It becomes part of theirrelationship with the people who
(20:57):
are around them with whom theywant to assert their own
independence.
So it actually becomes a statusbattle.
And in this instance, it's astatus battle around food.
You know, other people find waysof having status battles, you
know, the need to be rightaround other things.
SPEAKER_02 (21:12):
Yeah, so okay, so what I'm saying is that there's
this I don't know what you'resaying.
So you're saying science comesin, gives the actual facts
around it, which is don't eatcoconut oil, don't eat butter
instead.
And then the person goes, No,I'd rather listen to this person
on the internet over here thanan influencer that's saying, No,
don't eat seed oils because theygive you cellulite and they
(21:34):
screw your brain or wreck yourhormones.
SPEAKER_03 (21:35):
Yeah, I have the right to choose my influencers.
SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah, that's right.
So, but and then you get intothe area of false equivalence.
So you've got the HeartFoundation, right?
Scientists.
Who are generally you know, whoactually will test their own
hypothesis.
SPEAKER_03 (21:49):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
And then you've got people that are just, you know,
getting a kernel of informationand then sounding super certain,
like I only eat meat.
I will only eat meat becausevegetables, I I've heard this as
well, are really toxic.
SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
And so this are out.
So so so this is the thing.
It seems to us very obvious thatthere's a hidden agenda, right?
Some people will say only eatthese kind of you know, modified
coconut oils, probably becausethey have a business that makes
money out of it.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Exactly, exactly.
Exactly.
But then the result of this, soyou've got these people that are
touting this nonsense, and theend result of it is tragically a
beautiful 27-year-old girl whohas lost her life in a hotel
room in Bali because of the liesthat are being told by people
(22:40):
who are probably sellingsomething.
At the original point, they'reprobably selling something.
We know that most old medpractitioners are selling
supplements.
SPEAKER_03 (22:48):
Yeah, and if they're not, if if they're not sell
selling something directly, thenthey are selling something by
degree, you know, the you know,the monetization of their their
influencer channels.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
Exactly, exactly.
And the more sort of, you know,the more definitive you are, the
more you're floating around inin some sort of, you know,
unwashed linen, you know, withsandal feet and a bracelet on
your left ankle, you know, withyour tan skin, standing on the
end of a jetty, chewing on achop, raw chop, with some liver.
(23:23):
They really like eating rawliver and bits of butter.
SPEAKER_03 (23:27):
You're talking about liver king.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
No, this is this is the thin, weirdly, but those
sort of smooth skinned womenthat do it as well.
It's just everywhere.
But the problem is it's aproblem, it's a big problem.
And how do we counter it?
Because people die, and it'sunfair that she was obviously
(23:51):
vulnerable, she obviously hadterrible disordered eating, and
then she gets into this, youknow, and I do have issues with
the yoga communities, some ofthem are great, some of the yoga
communities are great, some ofthem start to tout some really
dangerous views, and and oftenin these communities arises this
(24:13):
clean eating, spirituallyenlightened, um keep your you
know, there's there'sphilosophies around it that are
really, really dangerous.
And I have issues with that aswell.
So what do we do?
What do we do so that we canstart to sorry, do you want to
go back to the yoga thing that Idon't know?
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No, I'm I'm I'm I am interestedin the question of what do we
do.
What do we do?
What do we do?
Um I mean I do this, I do thispodcast.
Yeah, okay, but okay, who areyou talking about?
Are you talking about um theperson at the centre of the
story?
Which is, you know, what happenswhen we notice that we start to
(24:52):
get, you know, seduced by No,because the girl in the hotel
room, she's the end of thestory.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Okay.
She's the end of the narrative.
She's just before she's justbefore the full stop.
SPEAKER_03 (25:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:05):
So somewhere way, way back, that's where it
started.
Now we don't know about herchildhood.
We don't know why we don'treally know why people develop
anorexia, except that it isvery, very exacerci shush yo-yo.
It is very, very exacerbated byum online forums.
We absolutely know that.
Yeah.
And the objectification of womenand the fact that women need to
(25:27):
look really thin.
And we know that.
SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
But but but but you say, what dowe do?
SPEAKER_02 (25:31):
What do we do?
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Um Who's we in your in your question?
Are you talking about aboutabout the person?
Are you talking about the thefamily of the people?
Are we talking about the widersociety around the people?
SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
I'm talking no, because I don't know that
person.
I don't know about her, thedynamic of her family.
SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
Okay, so you're not talking about the the patient.
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
She's the end result.
SPEAKER_03 (25:51):
Right.
So when you say what do we do asa society.
What do we do as a society?
Yeah, what do we do?
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:58):
How do we just start to counter these dangerous
views?
And and in in my mind, it'saround the fact that we don't
even get as a society, as aculture, how truly dangerous
these um opinions are and howthey can start off very, very
(26:24):
small, as to my point by theword clean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eat clean.
SPEAKER_03 (26:29):
And I I can't I can't get away from the thought
process that says that a lot ofpeople are exposed to these
lies, these distortions, youknow, they're explo they're
exposed to the the potential tobe exploited.
Yeah.
But not everybody is.
Correct.
And that is correct.
So perhaps I am not.
(26:51):
Yeah, yeah.
To answer your question, whatcan we as a society do is that
we can help people to understandhow they will sometimes grab
hold of something and takeownership of it, like a
self-destructing disorderedeating plan approach.
They will take that and theywill actually internalize it,
(27:15):
and they will they will theywill plant the seed within
themselves and they will waterthat seed and they will grow a
perspective, a distortedperspective in order that they
have power in the relationshipto the earth.
No, that's the thing that Ithink people don't know.
People think that disorderedeating is about disordered
eating when actually I thinkit's about it's about what
(27:38):
happens to the person who issusceptible to it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:42):
Yeah, but we can't there's always been vulnerable
people, haven't there?
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
And they have all and they had there for all the
vulnerable people they've beenin the world, there have been
people lining up to takeadvantage of it.
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
True.
There's always been snake oilsalesmen, right?
Yeah.
That you know, from the from daydot, someone has been trying to
sell someone.
SPEAKER_03 (28:01):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
Some someone has been trying to sell someone else
something.
Yes.
It has no efficacy.
That's right.
It's old as time.
SPEAKER_03 (28:08):
Or not only that it has no efficacy, but it could
actually do damage.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
It could do damage.
SPEAKER_03 (28:13):
You know, with one of the oldest stories in the
book, um, is um is Adam and Evein the in the garden.
SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
You're back at the Bible! How did we get into the
Bible?
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
No, no, no.
I I was I was I was talkingabout this from um a Quranic uh
perspective, because there is anAdam and Eve in the uh in in
Islamic religion as well.
Well I'm just saying it's theold story, right?
Oh but what about it's the oldstory of here's the apple, eat
this apple, and you will becomeenlightened.
And actually, um there was a bitof a m a mistake made.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and and we know um you know,there's just you know, endless
pictures from the the lastcentury and the century before
of people selling stuff, right?
SPEAKER_03 (28:55):
Yeah, you know, like what well people literally snake
oil.
Literally snake oil is an oil,yeah.
Presumably made out of a snakeor parts of a snake that was
supposed to do something goodfor you.
SPEAKER_02 (29:08):
Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (29:09):
Um the uh the mystic, you know, we saw on a
television show the other othernight, you know, the the mystics
that were travelling around theworld in the late 19th century
saying that they couldcommunicate with the dead.
SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they're still out there.
SPEAKER_03 (29:23):
And they are still out there.
SPEAKER_02 (29:24):
And so it I guess we arrive we always arrive back,
sort of, at the same point, isthat people are not armed with
critical thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Because if they were armed with critical thinking,
then they would see somethingonline that said, you know, eat
clean, don't eat seed oil, doeat coconut oil or whatever,
only eat raw meat, or don't eatgluten.
I mean, the gluten thing isnuts.
The amount of people that don'teat bread because it's got
(29:56):
gluten is nuts when they're notceliac.
It's mental.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
But it gets a life of its own.
It's like matcha.
SPEAKER_03 (30:03):
That's right.
People get to commercialise it.
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
You've got the whole, you know, the gluten-free
aisle, the gluten free shelf.
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
And apparently, matcha.
You drink too much matcha tea,and it's actually quite bad for
you because but it's got thehealth halo over it.
SPEAKER_03 (30:15):
Oh, yeah, because it's just tea and it's um green.
It's it's green tea and it'sit's it's in everything.
You slow acting caffeine.
SPEAKER_02 (30:21):
You can get matcha everything now, but apparently
it's not that good for you, andyou've got to be very careful
about your consumption.
But it's got the health halo.
So much has the health halo.
Fruitarianism would have had thehealth halo.
It sounds right, right?
You want to be thin, you want tobe healthy, so you're only going
to eat fruit.
I mean, there's a s a ring toit, isn't there?
SPEAKER_03 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, and and there was the extreme case of
the Bretharians.
SPEAKER_02 (30:45):
What tell me about the Breatharians?
SPEAKER_03 (30:46):
And the Bretharians were was an order that basically
said that um that human beingscould could live on just breath.
SPEAKER_02 (30:52):
Yeah, it makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (30:53):
Um, you know, a little bit of water with a
little bit of uh lemon juice orsomething like that.
But that was it, no food.
SPEAKER_02 (30:58):
Uh and that's right, there were those girls that died
in a tent in Scotland.
Yo-yo, excuse me, you've neverbeen to Scotland.
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
Anyway, so that was the that was the the Breatharian
um um approach, the cult um wasled by a gentleman who was
profiting from his position asthe head of the Bretharians, but
they followed him um one day andand he was he went into
McDonald's and was buyingcheeseburgers or something like
that.
So so yes, um there are manystories of people who will
(31:28):
exploit exploit the vulnerable.
And so your question, how do weas a society stop that from
happening?
SPEAKER_02 (31:34):
Well Well, it really upset me the story of that girl.
It's so unnecessary.
Her parents must have just beenbeside themselves, the poor
things.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So we can't we can't stop the the the horse is
bolted, the horse is outrightwith in terms of misinformation
and disinformation on theinternet.
We can't get it back now, canwe?
It's gone, it's happened, andand it's just a big pile on now.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
Okay, so so so what you're doing with the podcast is
you're helping people to to beable to examine their thinking.
So that if they do want to takesomething on, if they do want to
take a new exercise regime on,or a new dietary plan, or a new
relationship on, what you wantthem to do is to look at it
critically and to ask, is thisin my best interest or
(32:22):
something?
Yeah, and look for somescientific studies and look for
look for some scientificstudies.
And I guess the thing that I'madding to that, and perhaps you
do this implicitly anyway, is tonotice what power does embracing
disordered eating or you know,the list, what power does that
(32:46):
give me in my primaryrelationships?
If eating clean makes me aspecial one at the dinner table,
yeah, yeah.
And I get power because of that,yeah, if I get power from that
and I recognise it, then ideallyyou'd go, okay, well, maybe
maybe I'm excited about thisthis clean eating thing because
(33:06):
it it helps me to have you knowget one up over mum or my
brother's.
SPEAKER_02 (33:10):
And also the thing is it's it's it's it's all of it
is in service of being thin.
All of it is in service ofwomen, because it's mainly women
that do the clean eating.
SPEAKER_03 (33:19):
Because what is w when a woman is thin, what does
she have more of?
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
Attention.
What?
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah, more attention.
SPEAKER_02 (33:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:25):
Which gives someone a sense of power.
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
And you're fitting into a norm, right?
So yeah, look, there's I I wouldadvise anybody who listens to
this podcast to really apply acritical eye to any claim, any
nutritional claim that is made,any claim about a supplement
that is made, um, any claim atall which has a large promise to
(33:52):
it, because we know that onething that you eat or one thing
that you drink or one thing thatyou take cannot possibly give
you all the benefits and theresults that generally they
promise.
So if something has a very broadpromise to it, that's when you
start the process of going, hangon, it's gonna make me thin,
(34:14):
it's gonna balance my hormones,it's gonna balance my my energy,
it's gonna boost my immunesystem, it's gonna help my
cardiovascular health, you know,it's gonna I'm gonna have no
cellulite and I'm just gonna beamazing and my skin's gonna be
super clear and it's gonnarestore the elasticity and my
joints won't hurt.
If it says that, it's probably aheap of crap.
(34:36):
Right.
So, interestingly enough, I justdid this TikTok on on alkaline
water, which is very, verypopular because there's this
perception that Sydney drinkingwater is somehow dangerous and
full of heavy metals, which isjust it is the safest drinking
water.
SPEAKER_03 (34:51):
Yeah, Sydney water's great.
SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Like go to Bali, go to India, go to somewhere where
you've genuinely got a problem.
But this middle class entitlednotion that we have to drink
special water, anyway.
That TikTok I did ho had over10,000 views, and I think it's
because people actually areinterested in countering some of
these myths.
So um that's all I really wantedto say this week.
(35:16):
I feel terrible about her, andso I think we should say her
name because I feel bad for herand bad for her family.
Her name was Carolina Kryzjak.
Yep.
Yep.
So she's not going home to herfamily, and they're going to
mourn her forever becausesomehow, someone, somewhere,
(35:39):
started to tell her a lie, andthe lie never got stopped.
And we, as a community of peoplethat believe in critical
thinking, we have to reallystart countering these myths
because it's dangerous.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
And that's what I want to say.
David, anything else?
SPEAKER_03 (35:56):
Yeah, and uh and the other it it it it's that other
dimension that's got me thinkingthis morning.
Yes, if it sounds too good to betrue, then it probably isn't
true.
That's the misinformation thatwe need to deal with.
But perhaps we can also helppeople understand their
(36:18):
attraction to misinformation.
Yeah, sure.
And if that if that if that ifthat's yeah, it's a good point.
SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
It's a really good point.
SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
If that attraction gives them something, then they
will go further and faster inthat direction.
SPEAKER_02 (36:28):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
And it's not just about it's not just about
disordered eating, it's alsoabout you know what people do
with their finances.
It's also about conspiracythinking.
It's also about conspiracythinking, it's what you're
doing.
Yeah, 100%.
It's a i it it i it's all ofthose things.
So if um if the promise ofsomething new is starting to to
to trigger a thought process,which is you know, I'll be able
(36:50):
to achieve so much more, or Iwill have you know more power in
this relationship.
SPEAKER_02 (36:55):
I don't think people think that.
I think that's unconscious.
People are not gonna think I'llhave more power, they're just
gonna think I'm gonna look greatand everyone will want to be
like me.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
Okay, well I'm that's And no one's gonna tell
me what to do.
Okay, and and all of thosethings they they they they seem
to be the downstream umbenefits.
Um the downstream benefit ofthose things is that you have
more power.
SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
Yeah, but they don't know.
That's unconscious.
They're unaware of that, right?
Let's try and bring it into theconsciousness, correct?
SPEAKER_03 (37:25):
So I guess I'm suggesting that people uh bring
into the conscious the powerdynamics that get altered when
they take on board you knowtrue, good point untrue
information.
SPEAKER_02 (37:35):
I thought my finish was better than yours, but I'm
I'm gonna leave it in, I'm gonnaleave it in because I'm very
egalitarian.
Um thanks for your time today,David.
SPEAKER_03 (37:43):
You're welcome.
I hope I contributed something.
SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
Um thank you, Harrison.
Um, thank you, Yo-Yo, forbarking pointlessly through
that.
Um Yoyo, I mean, Ryder has beena good boy because he's been for
a run this morning, so he's nowhaving a rest.
Um so thank you so much fortuning in, um, listeners.
Wherever you are in the world,stay safe, stay well, keep your
critical thinking hats on.
(38:05):
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
(38:26):
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
(38:48):
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
(39:09):
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at Shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(39:29):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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