October 6, 2025 • 43 mins
Tired of being told to “love yourself first” before anything else can work? We take that sacred cow for a walk and ask a simpler, kinder question: what if love is a verb, not a mood? Annie and David unpack the pressure-packed version of self-love that dominates social media and swap it for practical actions anyone can do—no lotus pose required. Along the way we separate self-love from self-care aesthetics, look at why external validation actually matters, and explore how neutral self-respect can be more stabilising than forced affirmations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships to careerchoices to finances to photo
jackets and failed movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm an cabinet,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not as good, but I do go to fiveyears.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Um, wherever you are in theworld, I'm sorry you're not here
today.
On the northern beaches ofSydney, New South Wales,
(01:06):
Australia, because it is weatherperfection.
I don't want to show off, butit's clear blue skies and
twenty-four to twenty-fivedegrees, which is like optimum.
What do you think, David?
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Yeah, I think it's right.
But d does anybody listeningcare?
You know what the weather islike when we're recording.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Is it a stupid thing to talk about?
Maybe it is.
Maybe it's the noise people andthey're like, Yeah, shut up
about the weather.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
No one's given you any feedback on it, have they?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Okay.
Well, if you don't like the thethe the weather report each
time, then uh let Annie know,and I'm sure she'll I'll ignore
it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
I'll ignore you.
Anyway, today, David, write it,get out of it.
I wanted to talk about umself-love.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Oh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
No.
No.
No.
It's just that there's a lot oftalk constantly about self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Self-love.
What do you what do you mean?
What what does this talkdescribe?
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Oh, um, generally speaking, there's a strong
encouragement for us to loveourselves because and that you
can't um another person can'tlove you.
You won't be open to being lovedunless you love yourself first,
right?
So I want to ask you a question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
A are you are you taking exception to the notion
of people loving themselves now?
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Sure.
What?
Yeah, I am.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Isn't it isn't it fairly unquestioned that it's
important that you you know,that you have a high regard for
yourself, that you treatyourself kindly, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Do you I can't ask you, do you love yourself?
See, you can't even answer that.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Oh look, I have to think about it.
Do I work?
Oh look, I mean I guess I guesswhenever I do anything that is
in my uh best interests, then isthat's loving myself, isn't it?
Is it?
You know, even when Well, beingcareful when I'm in conversation
with you not to say anythinginflammatory and thereby get
(03:05):
myself into trouble.
Those are decisions that are inmy what so avoiding Yeah, invo
avoiding making you cross.
Is that is that self-love?
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
So your version of self-love is just staying out of
trouble.
Yeah.
That's not bad.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
Okay.
What you're happy with thatdefinition?
I don't mind.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Ask me, ask me.
I'll keep doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Do you love your Annie Annie Tell me?
Do you love yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
You don't you don't have any idea?
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
What it what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Okay.
So when you say you don't haveany idea Well, what is this
self-loved?
Exactly.
So what what are we w what isyour mind going in search of?
Um you know, do unto others asthe as is as you would like like
people to do unto biblical.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
No, you've gone straight to biblical.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Well it's it's it's not just biblical, it's also c
cultural that idea of doing untoothers as you would have them do
unto you.
Um but I guess that's that'sthat that's loving other people
as you would love yourself.
That presumes that you loveyourself.
Um Okay, so what could it be?
Holding yourself in high regardand treating yourself kindly
when you're hurt.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
That's different.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
What?
That's that's surely.
Why?
Why is that different?
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Like if you hurt yourself and I treat you kindly,
you would say that that is anact of love.
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
If I am hurt and I treat myself kindly, isn't that
a good thing?
Isn't that a isn't that an actof self-love?
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Sure it is, but but but when you see all the memes
about self-love and you have tolearn to self-love and people
endlessly sitting in the lotusposition, focusing on self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
What is that?
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
I l now I know what is irritating you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, what?
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
And uh and I reckon I reckon the the the irritation
uh can be triggered by just oneword.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Pamper.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Oh, now you've conflated it with self-care.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Oh oh oh oh sorry.
I thought that that maybe Ithought that was the thing that
that that was in your sightstoday.
Because I know that you do hateall of those um I hate
self-care.
You know, that sel s socialmedia stuff around it's really
important to pamper yourself andhave a milk bath with rose
petals and yeah, with yeahbuckets of precision.
SPEAKER_02 (05:17):
No, I'm talking about the notion of of just
self-love.
That unless we work on lovingourselves, then um we cannot be
loved by another person.
And that is the it's a verystrong hang on, I'm gonna hang
on.
Okay, no.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, Iwant to say something.
Which I think sets up thisterrible dichotomy of either
(05:43):
you've s love yourself or you'rescrewed up, and you've got to
then work on loving yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
Oh, right, okay.
So that that that extremepolemic uh you know polarizing
um uh dichotomy of either youlove yourself or you're screwed
up.
SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Well, love yourself or group or work on it.
You've got to go and work on andyou you tell me Okay, you tell
me what are you meant to do towork on loving yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Okay, all right, all right, all right.
No, no, no, no, now I think I sI I see where you're headed.
And I'm very happy to be theadvocate for self-love.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Go on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
If we're talking about well, let's let's let's
just break it down into twowords self and love.
Let's take the verb, the lovingbit.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
Don't talk about it like that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Well, I mean to to to love is to do something that
benefits the the person whoreceives that action.
A pastor?
SPEAKER_02 (06:33):
It's not too late.
Not like a pastor like like likespaghetti.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Marinara.
You should if I if if I was apastor, what would I be?
I would be linguini.
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
You'd be linguini.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
I'd be no, I'd be squid ink.
Squid ink linguini.
What would I be?
Um spaghetti.
I was gonna say gnocchi.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
That's so mean.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Why would I be gnocchi?
Um because you're um brown,you're light and frivolous and
um and and energizing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Gnockey gnocchi is not light, frivolous, and
energizing.
All right, well gnocchi sort ofcomfort food.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Stop.
Yeah, that's it.
Comfort food.
You're very comforting to bearound.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
I'm not though, am I?
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
You know, not when not when you poke me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
People are gonna think I'm horrible.
No, you're not horrible.
I'm horrif nice.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
No, no, you're you're love Well, hang on a
second.
Now now surely, surely if youtruly loved yourself, then then
then these barbs, these slingsand arrows wouldn't wouldn't
hurt you at all.
SPEAKER_02 (07:38):
Yeah, so th this is the this is the the trouble with
it, is this we are all flawed,right?
Yeah, yeah.
We're all riddled with flaws.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
And I think there is some notion that if you can't um
accept and sort of love yourselfin the face of your flaws, then
you you'd sort of failed in theself-love test.
But I think in terms ofcertainly in terms of loving the
(08:10):
way you look, you know, if youlook in the mirror and you
think, you know, I look fat or Ilook old or my thighs are big or
you know, my hair's going great,the roots, or whatever it is.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
And that's self-criticism.
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, but there's no point layering over that with
some sort of mantra around, butno, I love myself because you
probably don't love yourself,and that's probably okay.
Probably the best we can do interms of accepting the fact that
we're all flawed, is go for asort of a mild acceptance, maybe
(08:47):
like a new a neutral feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Okay, so now I really feel I have to go back to
the words themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Yeah, but the words themselves could just be
bullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Yeah, the words could be bullshit.
I think if you talk aboutself-love as a noun, as a thing,
you know, self-love is thisthing.
If you do it, then you're okay.
If you don't do it, then you'reyou're screwed up, you know.
And you really should work onyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
You better go and work on yourself, and then how
do you work on yourself and whatare you meant to do?
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Okay, if you describe love as a noun, then I
think it's problematic.
If you describe love as a verb,what it is that you do, then I
think it's actually a whole lotclearer.
You know, because then you aretalking about, okay, an act of
love is an act, is an action, itis doing something um that is
(09:31):
helping another person orsupporting or encouraging or or
or just loving them.
You know, it's it's it's it it'san action.
And so self-love and this is I Ido think this is where all of
these terms get distorted whenthey do find themselves into the
health and well-being lexicon.
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
This is where I think w health and you know, the
whole wellness thing comes.
You can go to a day spa and sitand meditate and learn, you
know, and and sit with yourselfand learn self-love.
But this is m another point I'dlike to make.
We don't live in a vacuum.
So then there's this thingabout, well, we shouldn't be
reliant on the externals, right?
You shouldn't be reliant onexternal validation.
(10:10):
We should just be able to loveourselves the way we are.
But that's rubbish because weare tribally brained, we don't
live in a vacuum, and we are toa very large degree reliant on
the approval of others, andthat's the truth of it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Well, that's the truth of it for some people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Well, who's it not the truth for?
Someone that lives in a friggin'cave.
SPEAKER_00 (10:32):
Nelson Mandela.
Oh, don't bring Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mand Nelson look look atthe history of Nelson Mandela.
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
I don't want to.
He's an anomaly.
He's a hero story.
Hero stories do not help us.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
What's that line from Invictus?
I'm the captain of my soul.
SPEAKER_02 (10:47):
You know, and too many hero stories.
Most of us don't are not stuckin jail for twenty-five years.
Most of us are just and he wasmagnificent, no two ways about
it, but most of us are justleading ordinary lives.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
That's right.
And and and and I d I I thinkyou can take the story of a
Nelson Mandela, if you get intocomparison, gee, I'm not as
fabulous as him, I don't havethat kind of psychological
flexibility or or tolerance orresilience, and he does and I
don't, and therefore, you know,I am lesser, uh, then then then
that's not helpful.
No, you know.
That's and and again, that'sjust self-criticism.
(11:24):
Um but if you can, you know, ifyou ponder the story of Mandela
and you go, well, how could hepossibly um have survived that
time in prison?
How could he have emerged fromhis time in prison with no
bitterness or rancor against hiscaptor captors?
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Um it just those stories, they just drive me
nuts.
Yeah, yeah.
They're just those stories ofthese absolute anomalies, these
these people that are drenchedin exceptionalism, and then we
talk about the fact they've gotraised consciousness, and then
I'm like, well, that where doesthat leave the rest of us?
(12:02):
Because mostly we're just tryingto get on and have, you know, uh
good days, good days, sometimesthey're bad days, but trying to
have some good days and do thebest we can to enjoy what we've
got around us, not to get on thehedonic treadmill.
Yeah, right, that the next thingthat happens is going to be the
(12:23):
thing that's gonna make me feelgood because we know the hedonic
treadmill is no better.
But but this notion of I have tolove myself and meet my own
emotional needs before anybodyelse can meet them, I just it
just doesn't wash.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah.
I I guess what's occurring to meas as as you're describing the
terms of wisdom.
Your pearls of wisdom seem to beanchored in the extreme, you
know, when people take thenotion and they elevate it, you
know, and they take self-loveand they make it a noun, they
make it an institution, theymake it a cultural practice that
we I have to love my.
(13:00):
And what I'm saying is that thatquiet, just treating yourself
kindly, giving yourself thebenefit of the doubt, um, you
know, giving yourself a restwhen you need it, you know,
giving yourself sustenance,giving yourself time out when
you need it.
The things that you do thatserve your, you know, your true
best interests, um, notnecessarily your hedonic ones, I
(13:21):
think that that's uh that's aform of self-love which I think
is kind of quite constructive.
Um I do agree that it shouldn'tbe the purpose of your life.
That if you are entirely youknow self-loving and don't have
any love for anybody else.
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
I just think it's another way that we can
self-flagellate ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
You know, okay, well, let's help people not make
that mistake then.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
I'd be okay if I I just had more self-love.
So, you know, I'd better, youknow, eat healthy food instead
of having a nice full fat pieceof cake.
You know, I'd better meditate.
I'd I'd better go on yogaretreats.
I mean, the things that areassociated with self-love at
(14:08):
that level are just so are justso entitled.
You have to be in a fair amountof, you know, you've got to be
in a position where you've gottime and you've got money to go
to a yoga class and and youknow, you've got time to devote
to meditation, and you're not asingle mother with two children,
and you've got three jobs tohold down, and maybe you've got
(14:29):
an abusive partner.
I mean, they're these peoplewith these incredibly complex
lives.
Um, so I I think the word issolipsistic, so you don't have
time for this solipsisticpursuit of self-loving because
you're just getting on with yourlife.
So for people that are justgetting on with their lives and
they're really busy and maybethey're under pressure and
they're dealing with all sortsof stuff, what do they do?
(14:50):
It's of way more interest to me.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
Okay.
Tell me if I've got this wrong.
But what I think you'redescribing is that when people
use a concept like self-love tojust fashion another rod for
their back.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
You know, or 'cause it's unattainable.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Because it's unattainable.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'm I'm not doingself-love and so I'm a bad
person.
So they end up And I'll never belovable.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, and I'll never And I will never be lovable.
But the fact is that and this isa very interesting point, I
think, you may not particularlythink so well of yourself.
You know, you may have nothingmore than a neutral opinion of
your looks.
You may have no more than aneutral opinion of your
(15:36):
intelligence or your creativityor your personality, but other
people can still love you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Yeah, and and you know what I didn't hear that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
That was a very important thing I said.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
I i it is, and as you were saying it, I was
thinking, no, I d I disagreewith your frame up.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Oh, okay, go on.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah, because you're you're saying um um you know
there is a a singular you thatwill have a good evaluation of
yourself or a poor evaluation ofyourself.
Oh yeah, that's true.
Yeah, you're right.
If you don't have a voice thatis saying, you know, you're
okay, you know, I'm with you.
Um you know, you you've beenthrough a lot, you're doing the
(16:13):
best that you can.
You know that you know that ifyou don't have that voice, uh
then you're saying then thevoice is absent.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Well, the voice comes and goes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And and again, come back to the our definition of
the way that the brain actuallyworks.
The brain is not a single voice.
The brain is actually more likea parliament.
It's more like a committee.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
Committee, committee voice.
And so rather than the chairmanmight be na saying negative
things.
The chairman might be sayingnegative things.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Yep the vice president or the uh you know the
uh the head of sustainabilityand resilience.
Um Head of HR.
HR, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Head head of encouragement IT risk.
What about risk?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um in our mind there are manyvoices that are often struggling
and debating to be heard.
And so it's probably not thatyou either have a voice that
loves you inside and or or likesyou and approves of you or
doesn't accept I bet youprobably do.
(17:10):
It just could be very, veryquiet.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
I would say, me personally, I've got pretty good
self-esteem.
Wouldn't you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Certainly.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah.
I pr think pretty well ofmyself.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
Hmm.
And doesn't mean that I don'thave self-doubt.
Um days when I don't likemyself, um, d days when I'm
unhappy with my mood.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
Um, days when I I think I should be I should be
having more generous thoughtsdoesn't mean any of those things
I go through all that, you know,you know, I get quite anxious,
but still my sense ofself-esteem is quite high.
Yeah.
Like I I I think I would like tohave me as a friend.
I think I'm quite good fun, dada da.
I don't go through that sort ofexistential doubt all the time.
(17:56):
But if you ask me if I lovemyself, I have no idea.
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
What you've just described sounds like the many
voices model of the way that thebrain works.
You know, there are days whenthe loudest voice is, you know,
you're a crappy writer, you'rewasting your time, there's no
point doing these podcasts, noone cares, nobody listens.
Yeah, good.
There are days when you havethat.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Um but fundamentally I think that when push when push
comes to shove, when push whenpush comes to shove, that
fundamental sense that you areokay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:28):
Yeah, I'm okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Um, I think that that's probably the most
enduring voice.
So it sounds to me like what youare describing, it actually fits
the model of the the the thebrain, or indeed the mind, if
you will, yeah, offering updifferent voices.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
And luckily for you, the voice that you come back to
is one that is fundamentallyself-affirming, um, uh
self-accepting.
You know, you think you're apretty good you'd be a pretty
good friend.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
I do.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
You quite like you, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
I quite I quite like me, but as I have just and I
won't bother going through itagain, but I have all sorts of I
said to you this morning, I'vejust read back through the first
chapter of my book and it'stotal rubbish and no one's ever
going to publish it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
So I mean I still have that.
But I think that if I had spentthe last twenty years tr
devoting myself to lovingmyself, I I I I I I I don't I
don't see the benefit of that.
I would rather spend my timelooking at the quality of my
(19:26):
thinking and applying criticalthinking to some of the more
repetitive thoughts that gothrough my head.
So if I have a a strongemotional reaction to something,
my first impulse, and notalways, but I'd like to think,
is to go, is that valid, what'sgoing on there, what's driving
(19:46):
that?
Which means I try not to be incrincredibly reactive.
Which so I and I try and look atthe cognitive flaws in my
thinking.
Is that consistency bias?
Is that confirmation bias?
Is that the spotlight effect?
Yeah.
Right?
So that to me is of more benefitto me leading a sort of a
(20:08):
constructive, purposeful lifethan trying to have self-love
because I think I'd never getthere.
I'd I'd never make it, andpeople will love me anyway,
won't they?
Regardless.
And then I feel good aboutmyself because I've got good
friends and I've got you aroundme.
And that makes me feel good, andthat's fine.
Yes.
And you're external, you don'tlive inside me, and my friends
(20:28):
don't live inside my head.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
This is true.
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
And so listen, I will say this thing first is is
that I will always love you.
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
Thank you, Dave.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um But what if you don't?
And well uh What if you leaveme?
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
I I I I want you to remember that when I share this
next thing, and I want you Idon't want you to be offended by
it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay, so you're saying, you know, when you when
you observe yourself, you know,you haven't spent a lot of time
at the spa.
Um I look good though.
Or you do.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
What sort of spa?
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Um beauty spa.
Yeah, but a beauty spa.
Oh.
Nail spa.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
How do how do I look regardless?
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
You look fantastic.
Yeah, you just look great,right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Yeah, go.
SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Uh but I I'm I'm I'm reflecting back to you.
You say you haven't spent a lotof time consciously doing
self-love stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that your self-love hasbeen taken care of itself, you
know, without you necessarilycalling it that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
Okay, that's an interesting thing you just said.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
Okay.
So um I think of self-love as anaction.
Right?
It's something that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:31):
And I don't think people see it like that.
They talk about it, I think theythink about it being like having
some self-care and then having agood fe a good feeling about
themselves.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
I mean clearly it's been working for you.
Your your approach to self-love,you've had just enough of it in
order to get to where you are atthe moment.
You've always looked afteryourself pretty well.
It's like if you don't like therestaurant, we go to another
restaurant.
If you don't like the hotel, wego to another hotel.
If I suggest we go camping, yousay there's no way I'm going to
go camping, and you avoid thosesorts of things.
These are actions that you aretaking that are actually taking
(22:07):
care of yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
Boundaries' boundaries.
That's right.
Sound quite selfish.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
You well, no, you're not selfish.
This is just I think whatanybody would do.
If I if I say to you on a Fridayevening, you know, Would you
like a margarita?
Yeah.
You will, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
You know, so no, you don't youdon't put that under the banner
of self-love, but I think it'sunder the banner of um Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
No, no, fair point.
Fair point.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
That'd be that'd be nice.
And and and so if I am umspeaking on behalf of the
validity of of of self-love as apractical action that takes care
of yourself, then yeah, that'swhat I think of when I think
about you.
Yeah.
You don't, you know, you you youyou don't turn self-love into a
ceremony and post post it onInstagram and you know, m make
(22:51):
other people feel bad thatthey're not as enlightened and
and fabulous as you are, um,which we sometimes see.
Um no, it's it's it it's justmore practical.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Okay, this is the um self-love, and this is um
through s the lens ofpsychology, self-love is a
practice of prioritizing andnurturing your own physical,
emotional, spiritual, and socialwell-being, characterized by
self-appreciation,self-compassion, and acceptance
of your true self are bothstrengths and weaknesses.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (23:22):
It involves actions, which sounds fine.
It involves actions like to yourpoint, actions, as it do, like
setting healthy boundaries,speaking kindly to yourself and
taking care of your needs ratherthan being a fixed state or
narcissistic trait.
Cultivating self-love leads tobetter mental health, increased
optimism, and a greater abilityto embrace new opportunities.
(23:44):
So that to me sounds um totallyfine because it's like
self-compassion.
It involves being understandingof your mistakes and losses and
communicating with yourselfwithout harsh judgment or
punishment.
That sounds fine.
Um meeting basic needs, youknow, eating, sleeping,
exercising, um honouring yourtrue self.
(24:09):
Oh, here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
If you're gonna read definitions, you're bound to
find something unburdened.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Well, it's about recognizing accepting all parts
of yourself, which is fine,including your emotions and
fears and being true to yourauthentic self.
Now you you know I think thereis no authentic self, but
anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
But um okay c can I sort of describe a um uh that's
what I don't think I I thinkthat's not what people think of.
And I uh can I can I just finishmy thoughts on that?
Um accept like accepting yourflaws and and accepting you
know, like for instance, yourbody the way it is, as I said, I
(24:46):
think the best you can do isjust go for neutral.
I think going I love myself,like I truly love myself, is
just sets up because it's a lie,right?
Like you don't, right?
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, but but but to your definition you can accept
yourself.
Well you can You can acceptyourself, you can have
compassion, you can accept yourstrengths and your w weaknesses,
and not get involved in a wholelot of drama about being that
person.
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
I think it's really hard.
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
It is hard.
Oh, sure it is hard.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
I think I I I like that idea of just going for
neutral, like looking atyourself instead of going
because I've got you know somany girlfriends who have got
like on their mirror, not I donot have so many girlfriends,
that is a gross exaggeration.
I had one.
And on her mirror it said, um, yyou know, um, you are beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
But she didn't think she was beautiful, and all that
sets up is your brain goes, No,you're not, yes I am, no, you're
not, yes I am, it's a completewaste of time.
Yeah, you may as well go, that'swhat I look like, pretty neutral
about it.
There's more to me than mylooks, off you go.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
All right, so practice makes perfect, but only
if you practice the rightthings.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
If you put a sign on your mirror and say, You are
beautiful, you're a total spunk,and you look at it and that
creates dissonance, thenobviously that's not the sorts
of thing that you should bepracticing.
Um look, with several um saytherapy clients that I've worked
with that are dealing withgrief, uh, and dealing with the
kind of grief that is also mixedup in uh uh a poor self-image,
(26:16):
you know, if they've been in a arelationship with a a
narcissistic partner for a longtime and that narcissistic
sorry, and that narcissisticabuse narcissistic is hard to
say, isn't it?
That narcissistic abuse has gotbeneath their skin and they've
started to think I'm I'm a badperson and I'm really sad about
this.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is an exercise that Ithink then the worst thing that
they can do is try and lovethemselves.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Correct, it's just bullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (26:40):
Yeah, because what is going on to get there?
Because the state that is goingon in their body is that they
are carrying the, you know, thethe biochemistry or the you know
the they're carrying around allof the information in their body
that is either grief or anxietyor even self self-loathing.
(27:01):
And that's a really difficultthing to shift when someone is,
you know, deep in the valley ofthe shadow of death, you know,
when you're really again.
Sorry, sorry, it's cultural aswell.
When someone's having a reallyhard time, they're anxious,
they're grieving, they loathethemselves, there's an exercise
that I ask them to do.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
And before you go into that, so so they're in that
state, and then you add into themix, well, you need to go away
on a retreat and and learn tolove yourself, and all that's
going to do is they're going totr try for a minute, not manage
it, come back and have one morething they failed at.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, that that that's right.
Right?
And and we and we don't wantthat.
SPEAKER_02 (27:38):
So you want more failure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
So I I I'm suggesting that we low key it,
that we make it an action, andthis is the thing that um that I
teach.
I also use it myself when I'm inmoments of grief or
disappointment or loss or anger,you know, any any any big
emotion, rather than saying Ishouldn't be feeling this,
(28:00):
rather than saying I shouldn'tbe feeling this if I was
enlightened, if I was trulyresilient, if I was Oh,
enlightened if I was all ofthose things, I wouldn't be
feeling this.
We know that that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
We certainly know that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
What I have found does work is that I will lift,
you know, the left hand or theright hand.
And I will think about what Iwould do if I was in the
presence of a friend, you know,one of the children, if they
were anxious or grief strickenor full of self-loathing, what
would I do with that hand?
You know, I'd place that hand onthem and I would reassure them.
(28:35):
And so I asked somebody to holdup their hand and to fill that
hand with all the the love andthe acceptance and the
reassurance, just to do this asa as as a thought experiment and
to feel love in their hand.
Yes, I know it's a metaphor, butto feel that sense of love in
their hand and then to placetheir hand on the part of their
(28:56):
body that's hurting.
So it might be their heart, itmight be their throat, might be
their head, might be theirstomach.
And that is an act ofself-compassion.
It's an act of self-acceptanceif you as you place your hand on
your heart.
SPEAKER_02 (29:14):
Looking at where the pain is.
SPEAKER_00 (29:15):
Yeah, and you're saying, listen, you know, I get
it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
Instead of going for some um n sort of disconnected
notion of uh of self-love thatit's gonna fix you and
self-care, yeah, you're justgoing in that moment, I I feel
this pain and it's locatedsomewhere in my body.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
And instead of trying to stay away from it and
and go towards uh a notion whichis very difficult to embrace,
um, I'm just going to for aminute just be nice to myself.
Yeah, I'm just gonna do that.
Yeah.
I think it's good.
Just for that minute.
Just go for that.
Feel better for a second, andmaybe not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Feel better for a second?
And maybe not.
Maybe not.
And that's the thing about atrue action.
An action is the act itself.
It's not attachment to thedestination.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Ooh, deep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Well, sorry.
Um so so so like she didn't sayjourney.
Yep.
So you you're gonna hate itbecause I'm gonna use a sporting
metaphor now.
SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
Actually at this point I know I've got to say,
what I would prefer a sportingmetaphor than if you come out
with any more biblical quotes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
All right, okay.
So um take take the process ofkicking a kicking a goal.
Oh kicking a goal with afootball.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Must I?
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Yeah.
Well, I'm I I'm suggesting thatit is you can separate the idea
of I have to score a goal,that's expectation, to the
process of just kicking theball.
You know, kicking the ball inthe direction that you want to
with the intent that you want.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
But then you're not going to win the game.
Uh or just in rehearsal.
SPEAKER_00 (30:45):
No, no, this is in the moment you you can't score
the goal and kick the ball atthe same time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
You kick the ball in order to score the goal, but in
that moment you can only do theone thing.
Focus on you know, your yourkicking of the goal, focus on
what you are doing to yourself.
Put a loving hand on your chest,say to yourself it's okay, you
know, it's natural to feel likethis.
Okay.
(31:12):
If if you if you self-love hangon, hang on.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Take out the self-love thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:17):
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (31:18):
What you so I'm kicking the ball in order to g
to score a goal.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
To Yes, but I can tell you as well But I know
focused on the on the goal, thepolls.
You can't Yeah, you you knowwhere you're going, right?
You know where I'm going.
That's right, you know what yourintention is, but you can't This
is why I've never played sportbefore.
Yeah, that's right.
You can't you can't kick theball and score the goal at the
same time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
It's quite soon afterwards.
It is quite soon afterwards.
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
It is it is It's quite soon.
But the only thing that you havecontrol over is the way that you
kick the ball.
Sure.
The only thing that you havecontrol over is the way that you
do the verb.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
In that moment.
In that moment.
And and that's that whole thingwhich I sort of even though I've
always been deeply irritated bythe notion of mindfulness, I do
see that actually, you know,while you're uh you know,
constantly cogitating andcatastrophizing and ruminating
(32:21):
about the past or the f youknow, ruminating about the past
or catastrophizing about thefuture, there is something about
coming back into the momentwhere you just have a cup, you
know, a sip of tea.
I do get I do get that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And it's har a really hard thing to do.
I do I have been trying to do itlately, and you know, I'll feel
the sun on my arm or the youknow the breeze on my face, or
and you know where where I getwhere I get it really clearly is
that that removal from thatconstant voice that's in my head
is when I'm at the gym and I'mand we have to get, I don't
(32:58):
know, ten calories on the bikein th two minutes and it's it
it's at one minute forty and wsomeone's on it, and for that 20
seconds You're just peddling.
All I'm doing is peddling, andthat's all I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
You're in action, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah.
That's all I'm doing.
And and in that regard, Itotally get it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Because I cannot do that and also worry at the same
time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Exactly.
Okay.
So so so I know I know that youthink that I'm being overly
conceptual when I say love is averb.
Um self-love is a verb.
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
Yeah, we've just got to take it out of the
vernacular.
I think just call I mean, I getit.
Just can we just go Be kind toyourself.
What about just um self-likeyourself a bit?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
What about that?
Um Like yourself a bit.
Look uh Today.
Isn't that easier to manage?
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Annie, whatever works for you, um, fabulous.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
Thank you, David, for that wise and pastoral
comment.
Oh my god almighty.
Whatever works for me wise andpastoral I'll just do it for
you.
See how this works.
No, wait, let me do it for you.
David, whatever works for you,that's good.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
So is what you're saying that what works for me is
not going to work for everybody?
Is that what you're saying,Annie?
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
That's right.
Yeah, okay.
So some people I didn't say thatyou see, you had a passive.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Some people might like a little bit of scripture.
You should Some people mightlike.
Maybe that's their way of maybethat's their way of um of of of
building some artistry aroundtheir cells.
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
Philomena.
Philomena.
I do remember this aboutPhilomena.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Oh, Philomena Morphab.
SPEAKER_02 (34:38):
She was a fabulous actor's agent and she She was a
very strong Catholic, is thatwhat you're saying?
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah, and she used to go to Mass every morning.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
And I totally like I really get that.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know why I get it?
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
You go to the gym.
SPEAKER_02 (34:50):
Because it's ritual.
I totally get it.
And there's also something, um,considering I'm incredibly
non-spiritual and irreligious,there is something I really love
about sitting in a church.
Yeah.
I love it.
I think it's beautiful.
That's why they built them thatway.
I get it.
I totally get it.
So in some ways, I used to lookat Philomena, even though she
(35:11):
she did she wasn't my agent.
Thanks, Philomena.
Um, and she I I thought that wasa great thing that she did
because it was a ritual and itgave her a sense of belonging
and a a sense of quiet, it wasgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (35:24):
Yeah, and look, this is this is actually where I
think we are entitled to beproud about the habits that we
build.
Because if we are building ahabit that does make us feel
better, feel stronger, feel morecompassionate, feel more solid,
feel more generous, feel biggerand able to deal with things, if
(35:46):
you are building that particularhabit, then I think you can look
at that and go, yeah, go me.
Like you've got that habit withyour going to be a good one.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
Yeah, but listen, listen, the thing what you just
said is that you're talkingabout being better in the world.
Right?
If you if you hang on, hang on.
If you if you're doing somethingthat makes you, you know, more
compassionate, um, able toachieve more, sort of more
purposeful, um, more generous,more kind, then that's a good
(36:16):
thing.
But what you're talking aboutthere is being relational in the
world.
Which see, it's it's different,which is which is what I'm
saying.
You're talking about being ahuman being in relationship to
other human beings.
We don't live in a vacuum.
And the more we get into thisself-love, self-care business,
the I reckon the more awry wego.
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
Yeah, well, you know, um Abram Maslow, Abram
Maslow would probably tell youthat um you're not right there.
Because the sorts of things thatyou're talking about, you know,
looking after other people, youknow, maybe that's
self-actualizing needs or higheron the scale of needs.
You as you say, the world is notperfect.
If your physical and biologicalneeds aren't being met, right,
(37:01):
then that's the first thingthat's going to be most
important to you.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Okay, okay.
Okay.
So i i Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds, right?
You know, it goes from thebottom, which is which is like
air and water, and the top whereyou're self-actualised.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Now, um I would say that um say in the sort of
middle class lives that we lead,right?
Especially at the moment, we arespending quite a lot of time
caring for other people.
Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
And that in itself is its own reward, right?
That feeds back a sense ofpurposefulness to that to me
feeds back a sense of identityto me, which makes me feel good
about myself, right?
Which is um different to sittingin a meditative state, you know,
tr tr trying to love myself.
(37:50):
Also, I agree with Maslow'shierarchy of needs, and of
course, you know, if forinstance you're in a war-torn um
place at the moment in theworld, then you're at the bottom
of Maslow's hierarchy of needsbecause you're in the survival
mode.
Yeah, exactly.
And I I I get that, I totallyget that.
But we're mostly not in survivalmode, you and I.
(38:10):
We've got our basic human needsmet, correct?
SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
Yes, and as we go from one context to another, you
know, there are things that canerode our sense of um of
physical safety, you know, of uhof uh social safety.
You know, do I actually belongto this group?
You know, every every morningthat I get up, generally
speaking, the first thought thatI have is um uh I haven't done
(38:36):
enough in order toself-actualise.
Oh really?
Yeah.
I mean you know, the the f thefirst thoughts that are creeping
beneath my head are are aregenerally around, you know, m my
poor evaluation on, you know, memaking the best of the gifts
that I've been given.
Oh.
You know, and that's just kindof I think I think it's a
reflexive thing that's come outof my psychological history,
(38:56):
etcetera, etc.
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Yeah, th I mean we all bring our we all bring our
histories, our childhoods, thecultures that we grew up in with
us, do we not?
Um and I guess it's up to us aswe get older to start to you
know, r really analyse some ofthose uh reactive states and and
maybe start letting them go.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (39:20):
That's not a great way to wake up.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
No, no.
No, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Um and I think you do great.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
What yeah But d but see there you go.
Now does that make anydifference to you?
SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
Oh oh look, I've I've I've packed it away
somewhere.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Right.
So if you tell me I'm doinggreat, like, oh beauty.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
Yeah.
Well that's well that's becauseyou are.
SPEAKER_02 (39:46):
Well, so are you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
It's just the way we view it.
Yeah, yeah.
So on that note, it's yes, aquick so you can say one last
thing and then we have to go andlet the good people go back to
their last We have to go to thebeach.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I think it's okay for you to reflect on whether
meeting some of your own needsfirst will help you to be the
person that you want to be.
You know, either for yourself orfor other people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
I agree, but that's this thing that you can
physically do in the world.
You can have good boundaries,you can read a book instead of
doing something you don't youcan do physically do things.
I just don't think s you know,doing a meditative practice
where you go, I I love myselfunconditionally is going to do
anything except make you feelbad because you come out of the
meditation, you still don't feelany better anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Are you speaking from personal experience?
No.
No, that's that's hypothet'shypothetical.
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Of course I did, of course I did that in man of that
um what are they called?
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
Um What the personal development courses that you
did.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
What was the things you say to yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (40:46):
Oh mantras.
SPEAKER_02 (40:47):
I did m mantras?
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Affirmations.
SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
Thank you.
I did affirmations for years.
It was just frigging pointless.
Frigging pointless.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (40:57):
Clearly, you've ended up bitter and twisted.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
Yeah, I'm so bitter and twisted.
Um anyway, so thank you, David.
Thank you, Harrison.
Poor Harry has to sit here nextto us and listen to us and
blather on.
But you don't mind, do you,Harry?
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
Yeah, Harry, just take your right hand up, fill it
with compassion.
Maybe your left hand as well,and then put them over your eyes
like this.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
David, the pastor.
You need your own church, David.
What would it be called?
Um St.
David's.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
It's just up the road.
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
Yeah.
What about me?
You St.
Anne's.
Um, on that note, thanks forlistening, smart women.
Um, I hope you enjoyed ourruminations on self-love.
Please don't give yourselves ahard time because you're not
involved in the self-lovemovement.
Um, so um stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
(41:53):
on, and see you soon.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
(42:16):
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can cut your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, at
(42:38):
a car park, in a bar, or in yourown home, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
(42:58):
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(43:19):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships to careerchoices to finances to photo
jackets and failed movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make some good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, I'm an cabinet,and as a woman of a certain age,
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not as good, but I do go to fiveyears.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Um, wherever you are in theworld, I'm sorry you're not here
today.
On the northern beaches ofSydney, New South Wales,
(01:06):
Australia, because it is weatherperfection.
I don't want to show off, butit's clear blue skies and
twenty-four to twenty-fivedegrees, which is like optimum.
What do you think, David?
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Yeah, I think it's right.
But d does anybody listeningcare?
You know what the weather islike when we're recording.
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Is it a stupid thing to talk about?
Maybe it is.
Maybe it's the noise people andthey're like, Yeah, shut up
about the weather.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
No one's given you any feedback on it, have they?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Okay.
Well, if you don't like the thethe the weather report each
time, then uh let Annie know,and I'm sure she'll I'll ignore
it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
I'll ignore you.
Anyway, today, David, write it,get out of it.
I wanted to talk about umself-love.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Oh.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
No.
No.
No.
It's just that there's a lot oftalk constantly about self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Self-love.
What do you what do you mean?
What what does this talkdescribe?
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
Oh, um, generally speaking, there's a strong
encouragement for us to loveourselves because and that you
can't um another person can'tlove you.
You won't be open to being lovedunless you love yourself first,
right?
So I want to ask you a question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
A are you are you taking exception to the notion
of people loving themselves now?
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Sure.
What?
Yeah, I am.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Isn't it isn't it fairly unquestioned that it's
important that you you know,that you have a high regard for
yourself, that you treatyourself kindly, you know?
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
Do you I can't ask you, do you love yourself?
See, you can't even answer that.
SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Oh look, I have to think about it.
Do I work?
Oh look, I mean I guess I guesswhenever I do anything that is
in my uh best interests, then isthat's loving myself, isn't it?
Is it?
You know, even when Well, beingcareful when I'm in conversation
with you not to say anythinginflammatory and thereby get
(03:05):
myself into trouble.
Those are decisions that are inmy what so avoiding Yeah, invo
avoiding making you cross.
Is that is that self-love?
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
So your version of self-love is just staying out of
trouble.
Yeah.
That's not bad.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
Okay.
What you're happy with thatdefinition?
I don't mind.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Ask me, ask me.
I'll keep doing it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Do you love your Annie Annie Tell me?
Do you love yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
You don't you don't have any idea?
SPEAKER_02 (03:36):
What it what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Okay.
So when you say you don't haveany idea Well, what is this
self-loved?
Exactly.
So what what are we w what isyour mind going in search of?
Um you know, do unto others asthe as is as you would like like
people to do unto biblical.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
No, you've gone straight to biblical.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Well it's it's it's not just biblical, it's also c
cultural that idea of doing untoothers as you would have them do
unto you.
Um but I guess that's that'sthat that's loving other people
as you would love yourself.
That presumes that you loveyourself.
Um Okay, so what could it be?
Holding yourself in high regardand treating yourself kindly
when you're hurt.
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
That's different.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
What?
That's that's surely.
Why?
Why is that different?
SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Like if you hurt yourself and I treat you kindly,
you would say that that is anact of love.
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:24):
If I am hurt and I treat myself kindly, isn't that
a good thing?
Isn't that a isn't that an actof self-love?
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Sure it is, but but but when you see all the memes
about self-love and you have tolearn to self-love and people
endlessly sitting in the lotusposition, focusing on self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
What is that?
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
I l now I know what is irritating you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
Yeah, what?
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
And uh and I reckon I reckon the the the irritation
uh can be triggered by just oneword.
SPEAKER_02 (04:52):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
Pamper.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Oh, now you've conflated it with self-care.
SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Oh oh oh oh sorry.
I thought that that maybe Ithought that was the thing that
that that was in your sightstoday.
Because I know that you do hateall of those um I hate
self-care.
You know, that sel s socialmedia stuff around it's really
important to pamper yourself andhave a milk bath with rose
petals and yeah, with yeahbuckets of precision.
SPEAKER_02 (05:17):
No, I'm talking about the notion of of just
self-love.
That unless we work on lovingourselves, then um we cannot be
loved by another person.
And that is the it's a verystrong hang on, I'm gonna hang
on.
Okay, no.
Hang on, hang on, hang on, Iwant to say something.
Which I think sets up thisterrible dichotomy of either
(05:43):
you've s love yourself or you'rescrewed up, and you've got to
then work on loving yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
Oh, right, okay.
So that that that extremepolemic uh you know polarizing
um uh dichotomy of either youlove yourself or you're screwed
up.
SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Well, love yourself or group or work on it.
You've got to go and work on andyou you tell me Okay, you tell
me what are you meant to do towork on loving yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (06:09):
Okay, all right, all right, all right.
No, no, no, no, now I think I sI I see where you're headed.
And I'm very happy to be theadvocate for self-love.
SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
Go on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
If we're talking about well, let's let's let's
just break it down into twowords self and love.
Let's take the verb, the lovingbit.
SPEAKER_02 (06:23):
Don't talk about it like that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Well, I mean to to to love is to do something that
benefits the the person whoreceives that action.
A pastor?
SPEAKER_02 (06:33):
It's not too late.
Not like a pastor like like likespaghetti.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Marinara.
You should if I if if I was apastor, what would I be?
I would be linguini.
SPEAKER_02 (06:46):
You'd be linguini.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
I'd be no, I'd be squid ink.
Squid ink linguini.
What would I be?
Um spaghetti.
I was gonna say gnocchi.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
That's so mean.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Why would I be gnocchi?
Um because you're um brown,you're light and frivolous and
um and and energizing.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Gnockey gnocchi is not light, frivolous, and
energizing.
All right, well gnocchi sort ofcomfort food.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Stop.
Yeah, that's it.
Comfort food.
You're very comforting to bearound.
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
I'm not though, am I?
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
You know, not when not when you poke me.
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
People are gonna think I'm horrible.
No, you're not horrible.
I'm horrif nice.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
No, no, you're you're love Well, hang on a
second.
Now now surely, surely if youtruly loved yourself, then then
then these barbs, these slingsand arrows wouldn't wouldn't
hurt you at all.
SPEAKER_02 (07:38):
Yeah, so th this is the this is the the trouble with
it, is this we are all flawed,right?
Yeah, yeah.
We're all riddled with flaws.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
And I think there is some notion that if you can't um
accept and sort of love yourselfin the face of your flaws, then
you you'd sort of failed in theself-love test.
But I think in terms ofcertainly in terms of loving the
(08:10):
way you look, you know, if youlook in the mirror and you
think, you know, I look fat or Ilook old or my thighs are big or
you know, my hair's going great,the roots, or whatever it is.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
And that's self-criticism.
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
Yeah, but there's no point layering over that with
some sort of mantra around, butno, I love myself because you
probably don't love yourself,and that's probably okay.
Probably the best we can do interms of accepting the fact that
we're all flawed, is go for asort of a mild acceptance, maybe
(08:47):
like a new a neutral feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Okay, so now I really feel I have to go back to
the words themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Yeah, but the words themselves could just be
bullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Yeah, the words could be bullshit.
I think if you talk aboutself-love as a noun, as a thing,
you know, self-love is thisthing.
If you do it, then you're okay.
If you don't do it, then you'reyou're screwed up, you know.
And you really should work onyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (09:07):
You better go and work on yourself, and then how
do you work on yourself and whatare you meant to do?
SPEAKER_00 (09:10):
Okay, if you describe love as a noun, then I
think it's problematic.
If you describe love as a verb,what it is that you do, then I
think it's actually a whole lotclearer.
You know, because then you aretalking about, okay, an act of
love is an act, is an action, itis doing something um that is
(09:31):
helping another person orsupporting or encouraging or or
or just loving them.
You know, it's it's it's it it'san action.
And so self-love and this is I Ido think this is where all of
these terms get distorted whenthey do find themselves into the
health and well-being lexicon.
SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
This is where I think w health and you know, the
whole wellness thing comes.
You can go to a day spa and sitand meditate and learn, you
know, and and sit with yourselfand learn self-love.
But this is m another point I'dlike to make.
We don't live in a vacuum.
So then there's this thingabout, well, we shouldn't be
reliant on the externals, right?
You shouldn't be reliant onexternal validation.
(10:10):
We should just be able to loveourselves the way we are.
But that's rubbish because weare tribally brained, we don't
live in a vacuum, and we are toa very large degree reliant on
the approval of others, andthat's the truth of it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Well, that's the truth of it for some people.
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
Well, who's it not the truth for?
Someone that lives in a friggin'cave.
SPEAKER_00 (10:32):
Nelson Mandela.
Oh, don't bring Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mand Nelson look look atthe history of Nelson Mandela.
SPEAKER_02 (10:39):
I don't want to.
He's an anomaly.
He's a hero story.
Hero stories do not help us.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
What's that line from Invictus?
I'm the captain of my soul.
SPEAKER_02 (10:47):
You know, and too many hero stories.
Most of us don't are not stuckin jail for twenty-five years.
Most of us are just and he wasmagnificent, no two ways about
it, but most of us are justleading ordinary lives.
SPEAKER_00 (11:02):
That's right.
And and and and I d I I thinkyou can take the story of a
Nelson Mandela, if you get intocomparison, gee, I'm not as
fabulous as him, I don't havethat kind of psychological
flexibility or or tolerance orresilience, and he does and I
don't, and therefore, you know,I am lesser, uh, then then then
that's not helpful.
No, you know.
That's and and again, that'sjust self-criticism.
(11:24):
Um but if you can, you know, ifyou ponder the story of Mandela
and you go, well, how could hepossibly um have survived that
time in prison?
How could he have emerged fromhis time in prison with no
bitterness or rancor against hiscaptor captors?
SPEAKER_02 (11:39):
Um it just those stories, they just drive me
nuts.
Yeah, yeah.
They're just those stories ofthese absolute anomalies, these
these people that are drenchedin exceptionalism, and then we
talk about the fact they've gotraised consciousness, and then
I'm like, well, that where doesthat leave the rest of us?
(12:02):
Because mostly we're just tryingto get on and have, you know, uh
good days, good days, sometimesthey're bad days, but trying to
have some good days and do thebest we can to enjoy what we've
got around us, not to get on thehedonic treadmill.
Yeah, right, that the next thingthat happens is going to be the
(12:23):
thing that's gonna make me feelgood because we know the hedonic
treadmill is no better.
But but this notion of I have tolove myself and meet my own
emotional needs before anybodyelse can meet them, I just it
just doesn't wash.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah.
I I guess what's occurring to meas as as you're describing the
terms of wisdom.
Your pearls of wisdom seem to beanchored in the extreme, you
know, when people take thenotion and they elevate it, you
know, and they take self-loveand they make it a noun, they
make it an institution, theymake it a cultural practice that
we I have to love my.
(13:00):
And what I'm saying is that thatquiet, just treating yourself
kindly, giving yourself thebenefit of the doubt, um, you
know, giving yourself a restwhen you need it, you know,
giving yourself sustenance,giving yourself time out when
you need it.
The things that you do thatserve your, you know, your true
best interests, um, notnecessarily your hedonic ones, I
(13:21):
think that that's uh that's aform of self-love which I think
is kind of quite constructive.
Um I do agree that it shouldn'tbe the purpose of your life.
That if you are entirely youknow self-loving and don't have
any love for anybody else.
SPEAKER_02 (13:38):
I just think it's another way that we can
self-flagellate ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
You know, okay, well, let's help people not make
that mistake then.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
I'd be okay if I I just had more self-love.
So, you know, I'd better, youknow, eat healthy food instead
of having a nice full fat pieceof cake.
You know, I'd better meditate.
I'd I'd better go on yogaretreats.
I mean, the things that areassociated with self-love at
(14:08):
that level are just so are justso entitled.
You have to be in a fair amountof, you know, you've got to be
in a position where you've gottime and you've got money to go
to a yoga class and and youknow, you've got time to devote
to meditation, and you're not asingle mother with two children,
and you've got three jobs tohold down, and maybe you've got
(14:29):
an abusive partner.
I mean, they're these peoplewith these incredibly complex
lives.
Um, so I I think the word issolipsistic, so you don't have
time for this solipsisticpursuit of self-loving because
you're just getting on with yourlife.
So for people that are justgetting on with their lives and
they're really busy and maybethey're under pressure and
they're dealing with all sortsof stuff, what do they do?
(14:50):
It's of way more interest to me.
SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
Okay.
Tell me if I've got this wrong.
But what I think you'redescribing is that when people
use a concept like self-love tojust fashion another rod for
their back.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
You know, or 'cause it's unattainable.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Because it's unattainable.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'm I'm not doingself-love and so I'm a bad
person.
So they end up And I'll never belovable.
SPEAKER_02 (15:12):
Yeah, and I'll never And I will never be lovable.
But the fact is that and this isa very interesting point, I
think, you may not particularlythink so well of yourself.
You know, you may have nothingmore than a neutral opinion of
your looks.
You may have no more than aneutral opinion of your
(15:36):
intelligence or your creativityor your personality, but other
people can still love you.
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Yeah, and and you know what I didn't hear that.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
That was a very important thing I said.
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
I i it is, and as you were saying it, I was
thinking, no, I d I disagreewith your frame up.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Oh, okay, go on.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah, because you're you're saying um um you know
there is a a singular you thatwill have a good evaluation of
yourself or a poor evaluation ofyourself.
Oh yeah, that's true.
Yeah, you're right.
If you don't have a voice thatis saying, you know, you're
okay, you know, I'm with you.
Um you know, you you've beenthrough a lot, you're doing the
(16:13):
best that you can.
You know that you know that ifyou don't have that voice, uh
then you're saying then thevoice is absent.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Well, the voice comes and goes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And and again, come back to the our definition of
the way that the brain actuallyworks.
The brain is not a single voice.
The brain is actually more likea parliament.
It's more like a committee.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
Committee, committee voice.
And so rather than the chairmanmight be na saying negative
things.
The chairman might be sayingnegative things.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Yep the vice president or the uh you know the
uh the head of sustainabilityand resilience.
Um Head of HR.
HR, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Head head of encouragement IT risk.
What about risk?
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um in our mind there are manyvoices that are often struggling
and debating to be heard.
And so it's probably not thatyou either have a voice that
loves you inside and or or likesyou and approves of you or
doesn't accept I bet youprobably do.
(17:10):
It just could be very, veryquiet.
SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
I would say, me personally, I've got pretty good
self-esteem.
Wouldn't you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Certainly.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
Yeah, yeah.
I pr think pretty well ofmyself.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
Hmm.
And doesn't mean that I don'thave self-doubt.
Um days when I don't likemyself, um, d days when I'm
unhappy with my mood.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
Um, days when I I think I should be I should be
having more generous thoughtsdoesn't mean any of those things
I go through all that, you know,you know, I get quite anxious,
but still my sense ofself-esteem is quite high.
Yeah.
Like I I I think I would like tohave me as a friend.
I think I'm quite good fun, dada da.
I don't go through that sort ofexistential doubt all the time.
(17:56):
But if you ask me if I lovemyself, I have no idea.
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
What you've just described sounds like the many
voices model of the way that thebrain works.
You know, there are days whenthe loudest voice is, you know,
you're a crappy writer, you'rewasting your time, there's no
point doing these podcasts, noone cares, nobody listens.
Yeah, good.
There are days when you havethat.
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Um but fundamentally I think that when push when push
comes to shove, when push whenpush comes to shove, that
fundamental sense that you areokay.
SPEAKER_02 (18:28):
Yeah, I'm okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Um, I think that that's probably the most
enduring voice.
So it sounds to me like what youare describing, it actually fits
the model of the the the thebrain, or indeed the mind, if
you will, yeah, offering updifferent voices.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:42):
And luckily for you, the voice that you come back to
is one that is fundamentallyself-affirming, um, uh
self-accepting.
You know, you think you're apretty good you'd be a pretty
good friend.
SPEAKER_02 (18:51):
I do.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
You quite like you, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:53):
I quite I quite like me, but as I have just and I
won't bother going through itagain, but I have all sorts of I
said to you this morning, I'vejust read back through the first
chapter of my book and it'stotal rubbish and no one's ever
going to publish it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:06):
So I mean I still have that.
But I think that if I had spentthe last twenty years tr
devoting myself to lovingmyself, I I I I I I I don't I
don't see the benefit of that.
I would rather spend my timelooking at the quality of my
(19:26):
thinking and applying criticalthinking to some of the more
repetitive thoughts that gothrough my head.
So if I have a a strongemotional reaction to something,
my first impulse, and notalways, but I'd like to think,
is to go, is that valid, what'sgoing on there, what's driving
(19:46):
that?
Which means I try not to be incrincredibly reactive.
Which so I and I try and look atthe cognitive flaws in my
thinking.
Is that consistency bias?
Is that confirmation bias?
Is that the spotlight effect?
Yeah.
Right?
So that to me is of more benefitto me leading a sort of a
(20:08):
constructive, purposeful lifethan trying to have self-love
because I think I'd never getthere.
I'd I'd never make it, andpeople will love me anyway,
won't they?
Regardless.
And then I feel good aboutmyself because I've got good
friends and I've got you aroundme.
And that makes me feel good, andthat's fine.
Yes.
And you're external, you don'tlive inside me, and my friends
(20:28):
don't live inside my head.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
This is true.
SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
And so listen, I will say this thing first is is
that I will always love you.
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
Thank you, Dave.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um But what if you don't?
And well uh What if you leaveme?
SPEAKER_00 (20:42):
I I I I want you to remember that when I share this
next thing, and I want you Idon't want you to be offended by
it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Okay, so you're saying, you know, when you when
you observe yourself, you know,you haven't spent a lot of time
at the spa.
Um I look good though.
Or you do.
SPEAKER_02 (20:57):
What sort of spa?
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Um beauty spa.
Yeah, but a beauty spa.
Oh.
Nail spa.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
How do how do I look regardless?
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
You look fantastic.
Yeah, you just look great,right?
SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Yeah, go.
SPEAKER_00 (21:06):
Uh but I I'm I'm I'm reflecting back to you.
You say you haven't spent a lotof time consciously doing
self-love stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that your self-love hasbeen taken care of itself, you
know, without you necessarilycalling it that.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
Okay, that's an interesting thing you just said.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
Okay.
So um I think of self-love as anaction.
Right?
It's something that you do.
SPEAKER_02 (21:31):
And I don't think people see it like that.
They talk about it, I think theythink about it being like having
some self-care and then having agood fe a good feeling about
themselves.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
I mean clearly it's been working for you.
Your your approach to self-love,you've had just enough of it in
order to get to where you are atthe moment.
You've always looked afteryourself pretty well.
It's like if you don't like therestaurant, we go to another
restaurant.
If you don't like the hotel, wego to another hotel.
If I suggest we go camping, yousay there's no way I'm going to
go camping, and you avoid thosesorts of things.
These are actions that you aretaking that are actually taking
(22:07):
care of yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (22:09):
Boundaries' boundaries.
That's right.
Sound quite selfish.
SPEAKER_00 (22:11):
You well, no, you're not selfish.
This is just I think whatanybody would do.
If I if I say to you on a Fridayevening, you know, Would you
like a margarita?
Yeah.
You will, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
You know, so no, you don't youdon't put that under the banner
of self-love, but I think it'sunder the banner of um Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
No, no, fair point.
Fair point.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
That'd be that'd be nice.
And and and so if I am umspeaking on behalf of the
validity of of of self-love as apractical action that takes care
of yourself, then yeah, that'swhat I think of when I think
about you.
Yeah.
You don't, you know, you you youyou don't turn self-love into a
ceremony and post post it onInstagram and you know, m make
(22:51):
other people feel bad thatthey're not as enlightened and
and fabulous as you are, um,which we sometimes see.
Um no, it's it's it it's justmore practical.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Okay, this is the um self-love, and this is um
through s the lens ofpsychology, self-love is a
practice of prioritizing andnurturing your own physical,
emotional, spiritual, and socialwell-being, characterized by
self-appreciation,self-compassion, and acceptance
of your true self are bothstrengths and weaknesses.
SPEAKER_01 (23:22):
Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_02 (23:22):
It involves actions, which sounds fine.
It involves actions like to yourpoint, actions, as it do, like
setting healthy boundaries,speaking kindly to yourself and
taking care of your needs ratherthan being a fixed state or
narcissistic trait.
Cultivating self-love leads tobetter mental health, increased
optimism, and a greater abilityto embrace new opportunities.
(23:44):
So that to me sounds um totallyfine because it's like
self-compassion.
It involves being understandingof your mistakes and losses and
communicating with yourselfwithout harsh judgment or
punishment.
That sounds fine.
Um meeting basic needs, youknow, eating, sleeping,
exercising, um honouring yourtrue self.
(24:09):
Oh, here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
If you're gonna read definitions, you're bound to
find something unburdened.
SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
Well, it's about recognizing accepting all parts
of yourself, which is fine,including your emotions and
fears and being true to yourauthentic self.
Now you you know I think thereis no authentic self, but
anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
But um okay c can I sort of describe a um uh that's
what I don't think I I thinkthat's not what people think of.
And I uh can I can I just finishmy thoughts on that?
Um accept like accepting yourflaws and and accepting you
know, like for instance, yourbody the way it is, as I said, I
(24:46):
think the best you can do isjust go for neutral.
I think going I love myself,like I truly love myself, is
just sets up because it's a lie,right?
Like you don't, right?
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, but but but to your definition you can accept
yourself.
Well you can You can acceptyourself, you can have
compassion, you can accept yourstrengths and your w weaknesses,
and not get involved in a wholelot of drama about being that
person.
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
I think it's really hard.
SPEAKER_00 (25:15):
It is hard.
Oh, sure it is hard.
SPEAKER_02 (25:16):
I think I I I like that idea of just going for
neutral, like looking atyourself instead of going
because I've got you know somany girlfriends who have got
like on their mirror, not I donot have so many girlfriends,
that is a gross exaggeration.
I had one.
And on her mirror it said, um, yyou know, um, you are beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
But she didn't think she was beautiful, and all that
sets up is your brain goes, No,you're not, yes I am, no, you're
not, yes I am, it's a completewaste of time.
Yeah, you may as well go, that'swhat I look like, pretty neutral
about it.
There's more to me than mylooks, off you go.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
All right, so practice makes perfect, but only
if you practice the rightthings.
SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
If you put a sign on your mirror and say, You are
beautiful, you're a total spunk,and you look at it and that
creates dissonance, thenobviously that's not the sorts
of thing that you should bepracticing.
Um look, with several um saytherapy clients that I've worked
with that are dealing withgrief, uh, and dealing with the
kind of grief that is also mixedup in uh uh a poor self-image,
(26:16):
you know, if they've been in a arelationship with a a
narcissistic partner for a longtime and that narcissistic
sorry, and that narcissisticabuse narcissistic is hard to
say, isn't it?
That narcissistic abuse has gotbeneath their skin and they've
started to think I'm I'm a badperson and I'm really sad about
this.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is an exercise that Ithink then the worst thing that
they can do is try and lovethemselves.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Correct, it's just bullshit.
SPEAKER_00 (26:40):
Yeah, because what is going on to get there?
Because the state that is goingon in their body is that they
are carrying the, you know, thethe biochemistry or the you know
the they're carrying around allof the information in their body
that is either grief or anxietyor even self self-loathing.
(27:01):
And that's a really difficultthing to shift when someone is,
you know, deep in the valley ofthe shadow of death, you know,
when you're really again.
Sorry, sorry, it's cultural aswell.
When someone's having a reallyhard time, they're anxious,
they're grieving, they loathethemselves, there's an exercise
that I ask them to do.
SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
And before you go into that, so so they're in that
state, and then you add into themix, well, you need to go away
on a retreat and and learn tolove yourself, and all that's
going to do is they're going totr try for a minute, not manage
it, come back and have one morething they failed at.
SPEAKER_00 (27:35):
Yeah, that that that's right.
Right?
And and we and we don't wantthat.
SPEAKER_02 (27:38):
So you want more failure.
SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
So I I I'm suggesting that we low key it,
that we make it an action, andthis is the thing that um that I
teach.
I also use it myself when I'm inmoments of grief or
disappointment or loss or anger,you know, any any any big
emotion, rather than saying Ishouldn't be feeling this,
(28:00):
rather than saying I shouldn'tbe feeling this if I was
enlightened, if I was trulyresilient, if I was Oh,
enlightened if I was all ofthose things, I wouldn't be
feeling this.
We know that that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
We certainly know that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
What I have found does work is that I will lift,
you know, the left hand or theright hand.
And I will think about what Iwould do if I was in the
presence of a friend, you know,one of the children, if they
were anxious or grief strickenor full of self-loathing, what
would I do with that hand?
You know, I'd place that hand onthem and I would reassure them.
(28:35):
And so I asked somebody to holdup their hand and to fill that
hand with all the the love andthe acceptance and the
reassurance, just to do this asa as as a thought experiment and
to feel love in their hand.
Yes, I know it's a metaphor, butto feel that sense of love in
their hand and then to placetheir hand on the part of their
(28:56):
body that's hurting.
So it might be their heart, itmight be their throat, might be
their head, might be theirstomach.
And that is an act ofself-compassion.
It's an act of self-acceptanceif you as you place your hand on
your heart.
SPEAKER_02 (29:14):
Looking at where the pain is.
SPEAKER_00 (29:15):
Yeah, and you're saying, listen, you know, I get
it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
Instead of going for some um n sort of disconnected
notion of uh of self-love thatit's gonna fix you and
self-care, yeah, you're justgoing in that moment, I I feel
this pain and it's locatedsomewhere in my body.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
And instead of trying to stay away from it and
and go towards uh a notion whichis very difficult to embrace,
um, I'm just going to for aminute just be nice to myself.
Yeah, I'm just gonna do that.
Yeah.
I think it's good.
Just for that minute.
Just go for that.
Feel better for a second, andmaybe not.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Feel better for a second?
And maybe not.
Maybe not.
And that's the thing about atrue action.
An action is the act itself.
It's not attachment to thedestination.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Ooh, deep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Well, sorry.
Um so so so like she didn't sayjourney.
Yep.
So you you're gonna hate itbecause I'm gonna use a sporting
metaphor now.
SPEAKER_02 (30:15):
Actually at this point I know I've got to say,
what I would prefer a sportingmetaphor than if you come out
with any more biblical quotes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
All right, okay.
So um take take the process ofkicking a kicking a goal.
Oh kicking a goal with afootball.
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Must I?
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Yeah.
Well, I'm I I'm suggesting thatit is you can separate the idea
of I have to score a goal,that's expectation, to the
process of just kicking theball.
You know, kicking the ball inthe direction that you want to
with the intent that you want.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
But then you're not going to win the game.
Uh or just in rehearsal.
SPEAKER_00 (30:45):
No, no, this is in the moment you you can't score
the goal and kick the ball atthe same time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
You kick the ball in order to score the goal, but in
that moment you can only do theone thing.
Focus on you know, your yourkicking of the goal, focus on
what you are doing to yourself.
Put a loving hand on your chest,say to yourself it's okay, you
know, it's natural to feel likethis.
Okay.
(31:12):
If if you if you self-love hangon, hang on.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Take out the self-love thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:17):
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (31:18):
What you so I'm kicking the ball in order to g
to score a goal.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
To Yes, but I can tell you as well But I know
focused on the on the goal, thepolls.
You can't Yeah, you you knowwhere you're going, right?
You know where I'm going.
That's right, you know what yourintention is, but you can't This
is why I've never played sportbefore.
Yeah, that's right.
You can't you can't kick theball and score the goal at the
same time.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
It's quite soon afterwards.
It is quite soon afterwards.
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
It is it is It's quite soon.
But the only thing that you havecontrol over is the way that you
kick the ball.
Sure.
The only thing that you havecontrol over is the way that you
do the verb.
SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
In that moment.
In that moment.
And and that's that whole thingwhich I sort of even though I've
always been deeply irritated bythe notion of mindfulness, I do
see that actually, you know,while you're uh you know,
constantly cogitating andcatastrophizing and ruminating
(32:21):
about the past or the f youknow, ruminating about the past
or catastrophizing about thefuture, there is something about
coming back into the momentwhere you just have a cup, you
know, a sip of tea.
I do get I do get that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
And it's har a really hard thing to do.
I do I have been trying to do itlately, and you know, I'll feel
the sun on my arm or the youknow the breeze on my face, or
and you know where where I getwhere I get it really clearly is
that that removal from thatconstant voice that's in my head
is when I'm at the gym and I'mand we have to get, I don't
(32:58):
know, ten calories on the bikein th two minutes and it's it
it's at one minute forty and wsomeone's on it, and for that 20
seconds You're just peddling.
All I'm doing is peddling, andthat's all I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
You're in action, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:12):
Yeah, yeah.
That's all I'm doing.
And and in that regard, Itotally get it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Because I cannot do that and also worry at the same
time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Exactly.
Okay.
So so so I know I know that youthink that I'm being overly
conceptual when I say love is averb.
Um self-love is a verb.
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
Yeah, we've just got to take it out of the
vernacular.
I think just call I mean, I getit.
Just can we just go Be kind toyourself.
What about just um self-likeyourself a bit?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (33:43):
What about that?
Um Like yourself a bit.
Look uh Today.
Isn't that easier to manage?
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Annie, whatever works for you, um, fabulous.
SPEAKER_02 (33:51):
Thank you, David, for that wise and pastoral
comment.
Oh my god almighty.
Whatever works for me wise andpastoral I'll just do it for
you.
See how this works.
No, wait, let me do it for you.
David, whatever works for you,that's good.
SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
So is what you're saying that what works for me is
not going to work for everybody?
Is that what you're saying,Annie?
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
That's right.
Yeah, okay.
So some people I didn't say thatyou see, you had a passive.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
Some people might like a little bit of scripture.
You should Some people mightlike.
Maybe that's their way of maybethat's their way of um of of of
building some artistry aroundtheir cells.
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
Philomena.
Philomena.
I do remember this aboutPhilomena.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Oh, Philomena Morphab.
SPEAKER_02 (34:38):
She was a fabulous actor's agent and she She was a
very strong Catholic, is thatwhat you're saying?
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah, and she used to go to Mass every morning.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:45):
And I totally like I really get that.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know why I get it?
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
You go to the gym.
SPEAKER_02 (34:50):
Because it's ritual.
I totally get it.
And there's also something, um,considering I'm incredibly
non-spiritual and irreligious,there is something I really love
about sitting in a church.
Yeah.
I love it.
I think it's beautiful.
That's why they built them thatway.
I get it.
I totally get it.
So in some ways, I used to lookat Philomena, even though she
(35:11):
she did she wasn't my agent.
Thanks, Philomena.
Um, and she I I thought that wasa great thing that she did
because it was a ritual and itgave her a sense of belonging
and a a sense of quiet, it wasgreat.
SPEAKER_00 (35:24):
Yeah, and look, this is this is actually where I
think we are entitled to beproud about the habits that we
build.
Because if we are building ahabit that does make us feel
better, feel stronger, feel morecompassionate, feel more solid,
feel more generous, feel biggerand able to deal with things, if
(35:46):
you are building that particularhabit, then I think you can look
at that and go, yeah, go me.
Like you've got that habit withyour going to be a good one.
SPEAKER_02 (35:53):
Yeah, but listen, listen, the thing what you just
said is that you're talkingabout being better in the world.
Right?
If you if you hang on, hang on.
If you if you're doing somethingthat makes you, you know, more
compassionate, um, able toachieve more, sort of more
purposeful, um, more generous,more kind, then that's a good
(36:16):
thing.
But what you're talking aboutthere is being relational in the
world.
Which see, it's it's different,which is which is what I'm
saying.
You're talking about being ahuman being in relationship to
other human beings.
We don't live in a vacuum.
And the more we get into thisself-love, self-care business,
the I reckon the more awry wego.
SPEAKER_00 (36:37):
Yeah, well, you know, um Abram Maslow, Abram
Maslow would probably tell youthat um you're not right there.
Because the sorts of things thatyou're talking about, you know,
looking after other people, youknow, maybe that's
self-actualizing needs or higheron the scale of needs.
You as you say, the world is notperfect.
If your physical and biologicalneeds aren't being met, right,
(37:01):
then that's the first thingthat's going to be most
important to you.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Okay, okay.
Okay.
So i i Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds, right?
You know, it goes from thebottom, which is which is like
air and water, and the top whereyou're self-actualised.
SPEAKER_01 (37:13):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Now, um I would say that um say in the sort of
middle class lives that we lead,right?
Especially at the moment, we arespending quite a lot of time
caring for other people.
Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
And that in itself is its own reward, right?
That feeds back a sense ofpurposefulness to that to me
feeds back a sense of identityto me, which makes me feel good
about myself, right?
Which is um different to sittingin a meditative state, you know,
tr tr trying to love myself.
(37:50):
Also, I agree with Maslow'shierarchy of needs, and of
course, you know, if forinstance you're in a war-torn um
place at the moment in theworld, then you're at the bottom
of Maslow's hierarchy of needsbecause you're in the survival
mode.
Yeah, exactly.
And I I I get that, I totallyget that.
But we're mostly not in survivalmode, you and I.
(38:10):
We've got our basic human needsmet, correct?
SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
Yes, and as we go from one context to another, you
know, there are things that canerode our sense of um of
physical safety, you know, of uhof uh social safety.
You know, do I actually belongto this group?
You know, every every morningthat I get up, generally
speaking, the first thought thatI have is um uh I haven't done
(38:36):
enough in order toself-actualise.
Oh really?
Yeah.
I mean you know, the the f thefirst thoughts that are creeping
beneath my head are are aregenerally around, you know, m my
poor evaluation on, you know, memaking the best of the gifts
that I've been given.
Oh.
You know, and that's just kindof I think I think it's a
reflexive thing that's come outof my psychological history,
(38:56):
etcetera, etc.
SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
Yeah, th I mean we all bring our we all bring our
histories, our childhoods, thecultures that we grew up in with
us, do we not?
Um and I guess it's up to us aswe get older to start to you
know, r really analyse some ofthose uh reactive states and and
maybe start letting them go.
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (39:20):
That's not a great way to wake up.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
No, no.
No, that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
Um and I think you do great.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (39:30):
What yeah But d but see there you go.
Now does that make anydifference to you?
SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
Oh oh look, I've I've I've packed it away
somewhere.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Right.
So if you tell me I'm doinggreat, like, oh beauty.
SPEAKER_00 (39:43):
Yeah.
Well that's well that's becauseyou are.
SPEAKER_02 (39:46):
Well, so are you.
SPEAKER_00 (39:47):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
It's just the way we view it.
Yeah, yeah.
So on that note, it's yes, aquick so you can say one last
thing and then we have to go andlet the good people go back to
their last We have to go to thebeach.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I think it's okay for you to reflect on whether
meeting some of your own needsfirst will help you to be the
person that you want to be.
You know, either for yourself orfor other people.
SPEAKER_02 (40:13):
I agree, but that's this thing that you can
physically do in the world.
You can have good boundaries,you can read a book instead of
doing something you don't youcan do physically do things.
I just don't think s you know,doing a meditative practice
where you go, I I love myselfunconditionally is going to do
anything except make you feelbad because you come out of the
meditation, you still don't feelany better anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Are you speaking from personal experience?
No.
No, that's that's hypothet'shypothetical.
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Of course I did, of course I did that in man of that
um what are they called?
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
Um What the personal development courses that you
did.
SPEAKER_02 (40:44):
What was the things you say to yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (40:46):
Oh mantras.
SPEAKER_02 (40:47):
I did m mantras?
SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
Affirmations.
SPEAKER_02 (40:50):
Thank you.
I did affirmations for years.
It was just frigging pointless.
Frigging pointless.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (40:57):
Clearly, you've ended up bitter and twisted.
SPEAKER_02 (40:59):
Yeah, I'm so bitter and twisted.
Um anyway, so thank you, David.
Thank you, Harrison.
Poor Harry has to sit here nextto us and listen to us and
blather on.
But you don't mind, do you,Harry?
Not at all.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
Yeah, Harry, just take your right hand up, fill it
with compassion.
Maybe your left hand as well,and then put them over your eyes
like this.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
David, the pastor.
You need your own church, David.
What would it be called?
Um St.
David's.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
It's just up the road.
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
Yeah.
What about me?
You St.
Anne's.
Um, on that note, thanks forlistening, smart women.
Um, I hope you enjoyed ourruminations on self-love.
Please don't give yourselves ahard time because you're not
involved in the self-lovemovement.
Um, so um stay safe, stay well,keep your critical thinking hats
(41:53):
on, and see you soon.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WiseSmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the facts from
(42:16):
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can cut your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, at
(42:38):
a car park, in a bar, or in yourown home, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
(42:58):
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking at shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
(43:19):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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