October 27, 2025 • 34 mins
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to faux fur
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband.
I don't mean him, but I did gothrough some shockers to find
him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,the Northern Beaches, Sydney,
New South Wales, Australia.
And it's a little bit of adifficult day here for David and
(01:09):
I because our Grudel rider, theGolden Grudel, um has swallowed
something he shouldn't.
We think possibly a sock.
Do we think a sock?
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Yeah, maybe a sock.
It's kind of it's kind of sodomestic and and unimpressive
that it should have done so muchdamage to him.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
He's always had a a propensity for swallowing socks,
underwear, and gloves.
Um but we think it's a sockbecause we live in this
apartment block and there's a agarden, a communal garden just
beyond our courtyard.
And my neighbour said to me,There was a sock here, it was a
black sock that had Adidas onit, and now it's missing.
(01:55):
So maybe that's what he's eaten.
And my husband or David said,Yeah, well, he'd seen him
playing with it.
Anyway, so so yesterday um he hebe became ill, and we sort of
kept an eye on him all day, andum, you know, he wouldn't eat,
which is very unusual, isn't it,David?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
It's very unusual that he wouldn't eat.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
And he was um very lethargic.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Oh, look, I mean it was obvious, it was it was it
was acutely obvious that wassomething was wrong earlier in
the day when I noticed that hewas trying to vomit something
up.
And it wasn't just that kind ofinvoluntary, you know,
something's coming.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
It's almost like he Well, don't go into too much
detail, don't, don't becauseit's awful for our listeners.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Don't go, don't all I can say was, you know, he's he
got into a position where hisbody would con convulse and
delivered too much vomitingdetail.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Okay, so the ladies can't cope with it.
I can barely cope with itanyway.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
I'm sorry, ladies.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
I don't know if we say ladies anymore.
It could not be maybe it's notright.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
The women.
I'm sorry, women.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Women, anyway.
The women can't anyway, anyway.
As you know, he's he's havingsome surgery at the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
As you can hear, we are emotionally on edge.
Yeah, we are.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
We are it's actually been really awful.
So it has been awful.
Awful.
So what we thought we'd talkabout as we're right, smack in
the middle of it, is how topractice critical thinking when
you're under pressure.
Because when you're underpressure and you're very
emotional, that's when yourthinking gets hijacked.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
That's right.
And we and in in the course ofthis conversation, I think we're
gonna identify some of the veryspecific moments where Nanny and
I felt our own thinking beinghijacked by emotion and
conspiracy the theories and andpossibly, you know, uh uh
sending us in directions thatweren't helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
So uh we get to about eight o'clock last night,
and the dog is looking veryunwell.
Very lethargic.
I think that there is some plotby animals and actually small
children as well to do that theysave it till Sunday night.
They save everything until theweekend and also public holidays
(04:02):
when everything's shut.
I I remember that from when ourchildren were small.
They would always wait untilSaturday night, Sunday to have
some dreadful thing happen.
Remember, Lachlan had some eyething, and and we had to try and
find an eye hospital and it wasSunday, and it was actually it
was New Year's Day, and that thethe eye hospital we went to that
was full of people who'd beenglassed in the cross.
(04:25):
Anyway, so there's always thisissue anyway.
So Sunday night is so it wasSunday night.
Sunday night here in Sydney.
The dog is deteriorating, so wewe stick the dog in the car.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
No, hang on a second.
Can I just can I just talk aboutthat that early moment?
Because I've been I've beensaying throughout the day, you
know, I I noticed him trying toum Don't go back to the vomiting
description.
Make himself feel okay earlierin the day.
Uh and um and you know, it it itmay come as no surprise that
Annie was worried before I was.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Um I kept saying, you know, You said things like,
Look, let's let his own body tryand deal with it as opposed to a
vet.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Which is what he's always done.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Yeah, but he doesn't normally do that that many times
anyway.
He progressively got worse.
David was sort of more sanguine.
I I'm never sanguine to do withanything with health.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, look, I uh and I remember saying to you, you
know, I mean we we were talkingthroughout the day, you know,
should we take him to the vet?
And I was saying, look, if wetake him to the vet, then he's
gonna be, you know, prodded andpoked and have things pushed in
his mouth and and and otherplaces, and it's gonna be really
uncomfortable for him.
Why don't we just kind of letthis thing work its way through
his system?
Um however, yes, he waslethargic, and um we were
(05:38):
sitting out on the grass and Iwas just kind of you know giving
him a a nice relaxing pat.
Um and I just noticed that hewas completely immobile.
Now either he was really relaxedum or very, very tired, or there
was something else wrong, and Itried to get him up.
It actually took me a couple ofseconds before he was going to
(05:58):
stir again, and I thought, uh ohno, this is um this is serious,
we do have to do something aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
So we um get in the car and we go to a local
emergency vet hospital.
So, right, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
So And as we were driving there, would you would
you say that um that you wereworried that something
catastrophic was going tohappen, or or was it just uh you
know, purely, oh let's go getthe dog diagnosed?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
No, I always think something catastrophic is going
to happen.
Okay I live in a world wheresomething catastrophic is going
to happen.
Yeah.
The m the worst case scenario isautomatically where my reflexive
thinking goes, and then I haveto come back from that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Yeah.
Because when you're there, it'slike uh how does that influence
your you know your powers ofcritical thinking?
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
That that that that particular emotional state.
Yes.
Oh, well, of course I just wantsomething to fix it super quick.
Yes.
Just whatever it takes is fixit, right?
That's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
So so so I guess our I guess our our premise, and
that is that sometimes when weare in a highly emotional state,
um that is when we are not sortof naturally inclined to employ
critical thinking, we'reprobably more inclined to go
with our emotions, magicalthinking, you know.
If I if I if if if I pray, maybehe'll be alright.
(07:22):
If or if we spend enough moneyon it, then he'll come back the
way we want him to come back.
It's it's that kind of slipperyslope when we're when we're
highly emotional.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
That's that that is correct.
So if I may go back.
So we get to this vet hospital,it's very nice, it's very clean,
pretty, um, you know, it's teamaking, coffee making
facilities, everyone's superfriendly.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Did you notice that it was staffed by attractive
young women?
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
No, but you did.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
Well, I I mean, and and and and this goes to the
this goes to what I think is avery clever um She's friendly,
veryone was very friendly andwarm.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Friendly, warm and caring.
Super warm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Warm to us, warm to the dog.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Yeah, everyone was super warm and caring.
So, you know, so we get in thereand then we sit for a minute,
and then we go in, a nurse comesout and she does his vitals, and
then we go into a room with a uma vet, and she looks at him and
we establish that he has had aum historical propensity to eat
(08:22):
things that he actuallyshouldn't be eating, like
underwear, socks, and gloves,and anything else he can get his
paws on.
So then she says we would needto do an x-ray to see what is
going on with him.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Packaging.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
So then she starts to talk very quickly about um
the set of diagnostics that theycould do.
And they could do an x-ray, andthe x-ray could tell us whether
or not he f swallowed a foreignobject.
Um and then she said also we'ddo blood tests for check for to
check for any other issues.
And I said, Well, hang on, ifyou're going if we discover that
(09:02):
it is an issue that he hasswallowed a foreign object, then
obviously it's not anotherissue, so why would you do those
blood tests?
At that point, you would do themlater if the foreign object
business has been discounted.
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
And can I just point out, you know, that that was a
moment when you actually didapply critical thinking.
Because in that moment, um thewhole environment, I think, is
geared to getting you to say yesto anything.
To anything, to uh to absolutelyanything.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
And that is, I think that's to do with the authority
bias.
So you're in a position, and Ithink this happens in in other
contexts as well, don't you?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know, you you walk into anarea where you're dealing with
professionals of a certain kind.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Like mechanics.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Like mechanics, uh, like bankers, um, you know, like
um like builders.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Ah, builders, you know, the builders.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
The the the the building renovator who comes
over and has a look at youreaves and says, oh gee, I don't
like the way that that was donefirst time.
That's going to be expensive tofix.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, yeah, builders is a really, really good one.
And the thing is, um we have apropensity to listen to people
um that are authoritative.
It's called the um the authoritybias.
So somebody that sounds verycertain um and is authorit that
has author an authoritativemanner is likely to sway our
(10:23):
thinking.
And she was very lovely, verypleasant, but she was very
certain and she had anauthoritative manner.
And I mean, of course, sheunderstands the insides of dogs,
and you and you we do notunderstand the inside of dogs,
right?
So, um, and the other thing isthat she mentioned the price of
(10:45):
this really, really early,didn't she?
Like, yeah, which which leadsyou to which bias, David?
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
The price of it.
Well, I mean, by by mentioningthe pu the price very, very
early, what they're doing isthey're actually setting um a um
uh it's the anchoring bias.
That's right, yeah.
They're you know they're they'reanchoring the uh the idea that
um yes we can save the dog, butum it's probably gonna cost
between six and you know tenthousand dollars based on what
(11:14):
we currently know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Yeah.
And so again, you are anchoredto that first amount, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and and once you agree toit, and and that was the that
was that was the thing that waspart of the hospital's business
process, you know, very earlyon.
Um here's an estimate, signthat.
Um and because you're in anemotional state, you want to
sign that really, reallyquickly, authorize all of this
stuff and committing to to aprocess, to tests, to
(11:42):
monitoring, etc., which may notbe absolutely necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, and the other thing that is in play there, and
it's the same thing as when um asalesperson says, Do you like
this dress that you're tryingon?
And you go, Yes, I do.
And then we feel really bad ifyou turn around and say, No, I
don't want it, because we arestrongly driven by a cognitive
(12:09):
bias called the consistencybias.
So once I've said yes, we arecompelled, we feel compelled to
agree.
So she's trying to get us to sayyes.
And the other um part of it isis that you're, you know, we he
is a beloved animal, you know,he's a he's a very important and
loved member of our family, andthere's some sort of emotional
(12:33):
dynamic at play whereby youstart thinking, well, all she
wants to do is do some perfectlyreasonable blood tests, what
sort of dog parent are you thatyou wouldn't just agree if you
love the dog?
Yeah, if you love the dog, you'dsay yes to it.
You'd say yes, right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Yeah.
So it it's your your yourcognitive thinking skills in
these sort of situations areabsolutely under attack.
SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
And and and so in an environment where the friendly,
warm, attractive people who havewelcomed you lovingly, who have
said nice things to your dog,who have reassured you that
you're absolutely in the rightplace, then say, you know, we
want you to, you know, sign upto you know between six and ten
(13:19):
thousand dollars worth of stuff,um, it is very difficult to
resist.
So what do you do in thatmoment?
You slow it down, you know, youjust take a take take a deep
breath.
And then if you want to if youwant to just uh look into say
why are these things included?
You know, you can ask aquestion.
(13:40):
So why is it that we would dothe blood test for the x-ray?
Before the x-ray, when the x-raymay actually suggest that the
blood test is not necessary.
And again, this isn't a DouglasHanley Moyer blood test that
goes on your Medicare card.
You know, this this blood testis is$500.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Um and and so I I I but we we'd been there about, I
don't know, 40 minutes and wewere already up to three grand.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
That's right.
That's right.
And and so that's the um and andthat's the that's the sunk cost,
isn't it?
That's the sunk cost.
You know, we're we've done thatthis much, you know.
We're on the train and and so wemight as well keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Explain the sunk cost.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Well, the sunk cost is is is if you've is if you've
spent time or money or you know,emotional energy into something,
yeah, and then you realize thatactually it's not for you, it's
more difficult to then extricateyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
Exactly.
So it you know, it can happen inall sorts of contexts.
Um the sunk cost fallacy can beat play.
You know, when you get on thephone and it's like, um, thank
you for your call.
Um you know, we we we're you arethe you are the fifth caller in
the queue.
And you think, well, I've beenon the phone for 15 minutes, um,
(14:56):
I may as well just hang on.
I've already spent that time,and you find yourself an hour
later, whereas actually it's abit a bit of a fallacy, it's a
it's a cognitive flaw.
And the other place, of course,it shows up is you know, I've
been in this relationship um for18 years, how can I walk out
now?
Yeah because of the the sunkcost of it.
(15:18):
So sunk cost can is is a areally big player in the quality
of our thinking because it'slike, well, you know, I've spent
5,000, what does it matter if Ispend another three, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
And I've got to say that uh, you know, I I I was
pretty malleable and um and uh Idon't think you were.
You you don't think so?
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
No, not at all.
Really?
No, I thought you held your linereally well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Well, I I I I was I was impressed and inspired by
you when you when when you didactually take a breath and you
asked, you know, why are wedoing it in that way, and then
and then requesting that theyapproach it in a in a way that
actually made more sense to us.
And uh and they could see thesense in that.
That was that that was fairenough.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Although when we exited the vet room with the
pretty vet and got out to thefront desk with another pretty
girl and she handed me the umthe invoice, which you know was
as I said, you know, was wasgoing up by about a thousand
dollars.
Thousands.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
I I know that if if you were to piece together some
of my comments on the on theissue, right, it it could I
could certainly sound like oneof those people who is just
absolutely vigilant that no oneis ever going to take them for a
ride.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Oh, you're not like that at all.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
But um, you know what?
No, like I I I could I couldindulge that part of myself that
is suspicious.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
And I think that's an interesting point because
being um ubiquitously suspiciousis no more um um using your
critical thinking skills as justbeing gullible.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Yeah, that's that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
It's all the same.
Like you if you you you have tobe looking at every issue and
applying your critical thinkingto every single issue, not just
going on on a sort of a roadthat sort of feels right.
Either they're trying to rip youoff, yes, right?
Or they're um they're just themost beautiful people in the
whole world and why don't youbuy everything?
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Yeah, that that that that that's right.
And and and you know, you youyou you seem to think that I'm
not a a tremendously suspiciousperson, but it doesn't take long
for me to think about a businessmodel whereby you're looking
after people's pets in anemergency situation.
Yes, you can charge anastronomical margin on that, um,
and it makes sense to havepeople at the front desk who are
(17:33):
warm and friendly and who lovedogs, and you know it it it it's
not easy, sorry, it's notdifficult for me to imagine how
I could really think that theyare taking us for a ride.
And the I think the the dynamicis that when you are in an
environment where you areclearly lacking in status,
(17:55):
power, and authority, you know,like when you are with the
builder, the mechanic, thepolice officer, or the surgeons,
the experience of not havingpower in that relationship can
lead some people to think thatautomatically they're going to
be taken advantage of.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Oh, well, see that that's whereyou end up with a lot of the
conspirator this conspiratorialthinking um that's going on at
the moment.
I'm I'm sure it's in the Statesand Canada as well, but it's
very, very prevalent inAustralia, of um we will not
accede to the demands of thegovernment.
Like it, you know, it's it's soit's so mad and uh and sort of
(18:34):
anti-authoritarian but butreally misplaced and terribly
generic.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
You know, so the um Yeah, the generic possibility is
that when a human being findsthemselves in a in a
relationship, in a in asituation where they have no
power, they can immediately goto I'm going to be exploited
here.
And so I think that the thereframe that was important for
us last night um were us was usto just simply re reflect on on
(19:03):
the vet's perspective.
I mean, they are liable for theanimals that come into their
care.
They have professional ethics,they have standard procedures,
you know, they of course theyhave overheads.
You know, they are going to bemore expensive.
You know, to get a specialistsurgeon at one o'clock in the
morning on a Sunday evening, youknow, it's it's of course that's
going to be more expensive.
So, I mean, what we really hadto do was to recognise our own
(19:26):
biases that might have beencoming to the conclusion that
the bill's being padded, andthen actually shift to to
problem solving, you know, toask the question, so if we don't
do that blood test, what are youworried about?
Or, you know, if we don't, if wedon't you know put him on a
drip, what are the concerns?
And um and that way it it wemove from being casting
(19:46):
ourselves to victims to actuallybeing partners in, you know, in
in the dog's care.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think that's right.
So I think in these sort of sortof highly emotional situations
where you're sort ofhyper-aroused and I could feel
it in myself, you know, I had Ihad the the full gamut of um
anxiety symptoms coursingthrough my body.
(20:12):
You have to slow down theprocess.
It's essential that you stop, ggo for a short walk, have a cup
of tea, take a big breath, dosomething that actually
intervenes in the downwardspiral of your thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Because in situations like this, and and
and this was our experience, theprofessionals did regularly
defer to us and say they did.
What is it that you want to do?
You know, do you want himoperated here at this hospital,
or would you prefer that he wentto your local vet, you know, the
people that know him?
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
And I guess what you're talking about there is is
um, you know, we were handedsome decisions, but only
decisions that we were actuallycapable of making.
I mean, clinical decisions wehaven't got a clue about.
But you need to be usingmetacognition, thinking about
your thinking.
And I think at one point uh whenthey called us this morning, and
the vet said to David, um, youcan either have the surgery
(21:13):
here, so this is this very SMICum this very, very SMIC
emergency vet, and he said, Youcan have the surgery here
because we are all highlytrained specialist surgeons, or
argument from authority,argument from authority, or you
can have the you can have himoperated on at your vet.
(21:37):
Now, they're very good, but theyare GPs and actually specialist
trained surgeons.
So there is so much in that onestatement.
Um, there's argument fromauthority, yes, yes, isn't
there?
Yes indeed.
There's a bit of a putting youemotionally over a barrel, like
how much do you care about thedog?
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
If you really cared about the dog, why wouldn't you
go for the top surgeon?
Why would you go for a uh youknow a suburban GP?
You would use the special Youwould use the specialist.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
You would use the specialist sur uh But m in my
mind, um just my experience ofthe entire place um is that in
the specialist hospital thatexists to do surgeries on
animals who have got themselvesinto trouble, um, you know, my
suspicion is that they'dprobably be a bit more trigger
(22:30):
happy, you know, that they wouldbe happy to use their expensive
machines and and and highly youknow highly le highly highly
experienced surgeons to do thisjob when actually a less
interventionist route might havebeen possible, and I thought
that he'd probably get that atthe GP at the at the local vets.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
What you said, which I thought was right, when he
said that, which I thought wasvery loaded, um very, very
loaded, you know, around howmuch do we care about the dog,
what you said was, which ofcourse is correct when you're
put into these positions, is howlong do we have to make this
decision?
Yeah.
(23:11):
Because there's so much in thatthat can be used to trigger you
emotionally to make a poordecision that you what you need
is time to rationally thinkthrough your thinking.
So that's metacognition.
Yeah, it's like metacognitionthinking about your thinking.
You're not you cannot make anaccurate decision in those sorts
(23:34):
of situations unless you giveyourself time to overcome your
biases.
This notion that I really like,which is treat your feelings as
hypotheses, not conclusions.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Yeah, I mean we don't want to make emotions the
enemy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
No, we don't.
We ex that's the other side ofit.
Yeah, absolutely.
Emotions are not they're not theabsolute pristine truth.
It's an emotion, it's a feeling,but at the same time, we
absolutely need feelings toguide us as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Exactly.
I mean, right back at the startof the story, you were quite
anxious about writer's demeanor,and I was not so anxious about
writers' demeanor.
Neither of our emotional stateswas the whole truth, but they
were just kind of as you say,you know, they were they were
informing what we thought wasactually going on.
Yeah.
Um, I had more evidence, then Igot emotional, I got worried
(24:20):
about him, and then I thought,well, if Annie's worried about
him and I'm worried about him,then that's it.
Let's take him to the let's takehim to the vet.
Um, you know, the emotions thatthat we had when we were in
there, I mean, yes, we were wewere relieved, you know, we were
relieved that we were in thesafe place.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
Just being in a clinical environment and that
somebody was going to, you know,help him, I immediately felt
better.
Yes.
Immediately.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
And then when they started throwing these
astronomical numbers at me, Iwas feeling confused.
You know?
I was feeling confused.
And the hypothesis you feltsick.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
And and then I and then I got I got into bed and
then I just couldn't sleepbecause I I kept thinking about
what was the right thing to do,and then worrying that Ryder was
on his own with with andwouldn't know where he was.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
And and and so we should we shouldn't we shouldn't
shame ourselves.
You you you can't, you know, uhtake people feeling emotional in
these situations as some kind offailure or markdown.
Those emotions actually do helpus to make decisions because
they are closely linked to whatwe value and and and what we
want to preserve.
(25:25):
But yes, the emotion is not theconclusion.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
No, the emotion is just the hypothesis, and and it
is absolutely part of the frame.
It's just not the whole frame,correct?
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think if you just sort ofhave a bit of a, you know, if we
just go back over the wholething, and we will let you know
on Thursday how Rider is becausehe's still in surgery, which is
really awful.
Um so look, when your heart isbeating out of your chest, which
mine was, that is your cue toslow your thinking.
(26:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
And when you don't agree to everything that is
offered to you by the builder,the mechanic, or the surgeon,
it's not that you're necessarilydistrusting people, it's about
tracking your own reasoning.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Exactly.
Remaining present with yourthinking in the dynamic, right?
You're not handing it overcompletely.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
And I think that's really key.
It's just occurred to me.
You're not just handing it overthe whole premise, you're going,
I'm involved in this, to thedegree to which I can be, to the
degree to uh the knowledge thatI have.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Yes, yeah.
And and you know, I I I'm I'mdoing a lot of thinking about
collaboration at the moment, youknow, collaboration as a as a
skill and as a discipline thatyou can bring into all sorts of
environments.
And I do think that to go intothe healthcare system or into
any of these kind of projectswhere you're working with a
(26:57):
professional and maybe anexpensive professional, you get
the balance right so that youare in a collaborative
relationship with that personthat you step up.
You know, you don't necessarilywait for them to offer to
collaborate with you, yeah, butyou send signals early on that
this is what collaboration meansto me.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
This is my to do that.
I think you're the you know,we've all got not all of us, but
I know I've got approvalseeking, and so do you.
I think you've sort of got todisengage from your pro your
approval seeking.
Like I'm gonna say something,and maybe I won't be approved of
in this minute, right?
Yes, maybe it it's not gonnamake them like me more, and
(27:40):
that's gonna make youuncomfortable, but maybe that's
what's necessary.
Yes.
Even with her last night, when Ihad to say, Well, I don't think
this bit's necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Oh, the lady at the uh at the hospital.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, I mean, I guess there was a part of me
that just wanted to go, oh mygod, just spend just whatever
you think.
Just tell just with the money isof no object, just save the dog.
Right?
There was a part of me thatwanted to be seen as a pet owner
with extreme largesse.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yes, like like like Shirley McLean in terms of
endearing endearment.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Running around hitting this the thing.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
So saying, Save my dog.
SPEAKER_01 (28:14):
Save my dog, save my dog.
So I mean, I think that thesummary that we can think about
is you know, the emotionalreason, you know, confusing
feeling with fact.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Okay, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
You know, name the emotion that you're having,
which is very hard when you'reunder pressure, and then look
for the evidence, ask forevidence.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah, I'm frightened, I'm suspicious, I'm
um I'm um wary.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Yeah.
And then, of course, this isvery much in play is the
authority bias, so over-relyingon experts.
And what should you do instead,David?
SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
Well, we we do rely on experts, but we can ask.
But but but we can ask them toshare their reasoning.
Yeah, perfect.
Yeah, how how do you how how howdo you how do you reason your
way through this diagnosis, youknow, to to to this kind of
treatment?
Don't just reassure me that he'sgoing to be all right if you do
what you say.
Tell me why you are holding thatparticular view.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
Um, so um anchoring bias, the first number shapes
all our judgments.
That first number really lodgesitself in our brain.
So you have to put that asideand do what, David?
SPEAKER_00 (29:23):
Well, I mean, you just you can respectfully ask
the question um, what does thatcover?
You know, why is it such a largetotal?
Um, is this the final amount?
Are any variations possible?
Yeah.
Yeah, just seek to understandthe number, knowing that when
that number is agreed to, it'llprobably then be anchored.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Yeah.
So the availability heuristic,you know, I know um, you know,
it it it's it's like the we'remuch more likely to be
frightened getting in anaeroplane as opposed to driving
our car, but in actuality youare in much.
More danger of having anaccident driving to the corner
shop than you are flying aroundthe world, and that is the
(30:06):
reality of the data.
But it's the availabilityheuristic.
Um, you know, plane accidentsare very dramatic, so they lodge
in the front of our brains, andthey're what come to mind.
So what comes to mind when yourdog becomes ill is every story
you've ever heard, horrorstories about dogs becoming ill
and something terrible happeningto them.
(30:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
So the thing to ask is You know, is it is this
typical in this situation, or isit just a is it just a
heuristic?
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Is this typical or is itmemorable?
The sunk cost fallacy, look,we've come this far, we've
already spent six grand, youknow, what's another three?
It's an absolute trap, and it'sit traps us, as I said before
earlier in the podcast, it trapsus in relationships, it traps us
in phone calls, and it traps usfinancially.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
So cast yourself as a partner in the collaboration,
and every new decision is a newdecision.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
It's yeah, yeah, you you don'tyou don't you don't fall into
the trap of saying, oh what'sanother six grand?
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Yeah, and confirmation bias.
So um, you know, confirm we wecherry pick the environment and
only and only notice thingswhich agree with what we already
think.
So the only way to actually umget out of the trap, the massive
(31:29):
trap of confirmation bias isDavid.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
Well, the way to get out of that is to um is to
almost like apply the scientificmethod, you know?
How could I be wrong?
Search for for disconfirminginformation, yeah.
Uh and um and have the have theinternal stability to actually
ask yourself, you know, how canI be wrong about this?
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah.
So that's our that's our wherewe are currently with our
beloved Grudel.
We are still waiting to hear howhe is, um, and we will let you
know on Thursday.
So um thank you very much forlistening to our story.
(32:10):
It's been a bit traumatic.
Um me, I don't drink Monday orTuesday nights because I'm a
rule, fairly rule-bound person,but tonight I'm gonna have a big
glass of Sauignon Blanc.
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
And I'm gonna pour it for you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Thank you.
So thank you, David, for joiningme.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
You're you're very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (32:30):
Thank you.
And um thank you so much,listeners, for tuning in.
Stay safe, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you soon.
Bye.
Oh, can you please subscribe?
That's what I had to say.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yes, Richard Saunders told me,who is um has the Skeptic Zone
podcast, that I have to ask atthe end of every episode to
(32:52):
please subscribe.
And I've never done that becauseI'm a little bit useless.
So Harry will put I don't knowhow to do that.
Harry will put something in thelink.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Harry will put something in the link.
Yeah.
And um, and know that um thatthat that any support for the
Why Smart Women podcast isactually going to return a
lovely grudel to full health.
We're gonna have to pay thesebills and uh maybe the podcast
can earn a bit of money.
SPEAKER_01 (33:18):
It's hilarious.
Thanks, guys.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
(33:38):
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
(34:00):
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
(34:22):
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
(34:45):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
(00:03):
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to faux fur
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
I'm your host, Annie McCubbin,and as a woman of a certain age,
(00:25):
I've made my own pair of reallybad decisions.
Not my husband.
I don't mean him, but I did gothrough some shockers to find
him.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsights into the working of
your own brain, which will blowyour mind.
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
(00:47):
recording, and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back to the Why Smart
Women Podcast.
Today I am broadcasting from DY,the Northern Beaches, Sydney,
New South Wales, Australia.
And it's a little bit of adifficult day here for David and
(01:09):
I because our Grudel rider, theGolden Grudel, um has swallowed
something he shouldn't.
We think possibly a sock.
Do we think a sock?
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Yeah, maybe a sock.
It's kind of it's kind of sodomestic and and unimpressive
that it should have done so muchdamage to him.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
He's always had a a propensity for swallowing socks,
underwear, and gloves.
Um but we think it's a sockbecause we live in this
apartment block and there's a agarden, a communal garden just
beyond our courtyard.
And my neighbour said to me,There was a sock here, it was a
black sock that had Adidas onit, and now it's missing.
(01:55):
So maybe that's what he's eaten.
And my husband or David said,Yeah, well, he'd seen him
playing with it.
Anyway, so so yesterday um he hebe became ill, and we sort of
kept an eye on him all day, andum, you know, he wouldn't eat,
which is very unusual, isn't it,David?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
It's very unusual that he wouldn't eat.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
And he was um very lethargic.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Oh, look, I mean it was obvious, it was it was it
was acutely obvious that wassomething was wrong earlier in
the day when I noticed that hewas trying to vomit something
up.
And it wasn't just that kind ofinvoluntary, you know,
something's coming.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
It's almost like he Well, don't go into too much
detail, don't, don't becauseit's awful for our listeners.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Don't go, don't all I can say was, you know, he's he
got into a position where hisbody would con convulse and
delivered too much vomitingdetail.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Okay, so the ladies can't cope with it.
I can barely cope with itanyway.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
I'm sorry, ladies.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
I don't know if we say ladies anymore.
It could not be maybe it's notright.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
The women.
I'm sorry, women.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Women, anyway.
The women can't anyway, anyway.
As you know, he's he's havingsome surgery at the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
As you can hear, we are emotionally on edge.
Yeah, we are.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
We are it's actually been really awful.
So it has been awful.
Awful.
So what we thought we'd talkabout as we're right, smack in
the middle of it, is how topractice critical thinking when
you're under pressure.
Because when you're underpressure and you're very
emotional, that's when yourthinking gets hijacked.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
That's right.
And we and in in the course ofthis conversation, I think we're
gonna identify some of the veryspecific moments where Nanny and
I felt our own thinking beinghijacked by emotion and
conspiracy the theories and andpossibly, you know, uh uh
sending us in directions thatweren't helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
So uh we get to about eight o'clock last night,
and the dog is looking veryunwell.
Very lethargic.
I think that there is some plotby animals and actually small
children as well to do that theysave it till Sunday night.
They save everything until theweekend and also public holidays
(04:02):
when everything's shut.
I I remember that from when ourchildren were small.
They would always wait untilSaturday night, Sunday to have
some dreadful thing happen.
Remember, Lachlan had some eyething, and and we had to try and
find an eye hospital and it wasSunday, and it was actually it
was New Year's Day, and that thethe eye hospital we went to that
was full of people who'd beenglassed in the cross.
(04:25):
Anyway, so there's always thisissue anyway.
So Sunday night is so it wasSunday night.
Sunday night here in Sydney.
The dog is deteriorating, so wewe stick the dog in the car.
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
No, hang on a second.
Can I just can I just talk aboutthat that early moment?
Because I've been I've beensaying throughout the day, you
know, I I noticed him trying toum Don't go back to the vomiting
description.
Make himself feel okay earlierin the day.
Uh and um and you know, it it itmay come as no surprise that
Annie was worried before I was.
SPEAKER_01 (04:53):
Um I kept saying, you know, You said things like,
Look, let's let his own body tryand deal with it as opposed to a
vet.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Which is what he's always done.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
Yeah, but he doesn't normally do that that many times
anyway.
He progressively got worse.
David was sort of more sanguine.
I I'm never sanguine to do withanything with health.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, look, I uh and I remember saying to you, you
know, I mean we we were talkingthroughout the day, you know,
should we take him to the vet?
And I was saying, look, if wetake him to the vet, then he's
gonna be, you know, prodded andpoked and have things pushed in
his mouth and and and otherplaces, and it's gonna be really
uncomfortable for him.
Why don't we just kind of letthis thing work its way through
his system?
Um however, yes, he waslethargic, and um we were
(05:38):
sitting out on the grass and Iwas just kind of you know giving
him a a nice relaxing pat.
Um and I just noticed that hewas completely immobile.
Now either he was really relaxedum or very, very tired, or there
was something else wrong, and Itried to get him up.
It actually took me a couple ofseconds before he was going to
(05:58):
stir again, and I thought, uh ohno, this is um this is serious,
we do have to do something aboutit.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
So we um get in the car and we go to a local
emergency vet hospital.
So, right, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
So And as we were driving there, would you would
you say that um that you wereworried that something
catastrophic was going tohappen, or or was it just uh you
know, purely, oh let's go getthe dog diagnosed?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
No, I always think something catastrophic is going
to happen.
Okay I live in a world wheresomething catastrophic is going
to happen.
Yeah.
The m the worst case scenario isautomatically where my reflexive
thinking goes, and then I haveto come back from that.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Yeah.
Because when you're there, it'slike uh how does that influence
your you know your powers ofcritical thinking?
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
That that that that particular emotional state.
Yes.
Oh, well, of course I just wantsomething to fix it super quick.
Yes.
Just whatever it takes is fixit, right?
That's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
So so so I guess our I guess our our premise, and
that is that sometimes when weare in a highly emotional state,
um that is when we are not sortof naturally inclined to employ
critical thinking, we'reprobably more inclined to go
with our emotions, magicalthinking, you know.
If I if I if if if I pray, maybehe'll be alright.
(07:22):
If or if we spend enough moneyon it, then he'll come back the
way we want him to come back.
It's it's that kind of slipperyslope when we're when we're
highly emotional.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
That's that that is correct.
So if I may go back.
So we get to this vet hospital,it's very nice, it's very clean,
pretty, um, you know, it's teamaking, coffee making
facilities, everyone's superfriendly.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Did you notice that it was staffed by attractive
young women?
SPEAKER_01 (07:47):
No, but you did.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
Well, I I mean, and and and and this goes to the
this goes to what I think is avery clever um She's friendly,
veryone was very friendly andwarm.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Friendly, warm and caring.
Super warm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:00):
Warm to us, warm to the dog.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Yeah, everyone was super warm and caring.
So, you know, so we get in thereand then we sit for a minute,
and then we go in, a nurse comesout and she does his vitals, and
then we go into a room with a uma vet, and she looks at him and
we establish that he has had aum historical propensity to eat
(08:22):
things that he actuallyshouldn't be eating, like
underwear, socks, and gloves,and anything else he can get his
paws on.
So then she says we would needto do an x-ray to see what is
going on with him.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Packaging.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
So then she starts to talk very quickly about um
the set of diagnostics that theycould do.
And they could do an x-ray, andthe x-ray could tell us whether
or not he f swallowed a foreignobject.
Um and then she said also we'ddo blood tests for check for to
check for any other issues.
And I said, Well, hang on, ifyou're going if we discover that
(09:02):
it is an issue that he hasswallowed a foreign object, then
obviously it's not anotherissue, so why would you do those
blood tests?
At that point, you would do themlater if the foreign object
business has been discounted.
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
And can I just point out, you know, that that was a
moment when you actually didapply critical thinking.
Because in that moment, um thewhole environment, I think, is
geared to getting you to say yesto anything.
To anything, to uh to absolutelyanything.
SPEAKER_01 (09:31):
And that is, I think that's to do with the authority
bias.
So you're in a position, and Ithink this happens in in other
contexts as well, don't you?
SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know, you you walk into anarea where you're dealing with
professionals of a certain kind.
SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
Like mechanics.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Like mechanics, uh, like bankers, um, you know, like
um like builders.
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
Ah, builders, you know, the builders.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
The the the the building renovator who comes
over and has a look at youreaves and says, oh gee, I don't
like the way that that was donefirst time.
That's going to be expensive tofix.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Yeah, yeah, builders is a really, really good one.
And the thing is, um we have apropensity to listen to people
um that are authoritative.
It's called the um the authoritybias.
So somebody that sounds verycertain um and is authorit that
has author an authoritativemanner is likely to sway our
(10:23):
thinking.
And she was very lovely, verypleasant, but she was very
certain and she had anauthoritative manner.
And I mean, of course, sheunderstands the insides of dogs,
and you and you we do notunderstand the inside of dogs,
right?
So, um, and the other thing isthat she mentioned the price of
(10:45):
this really, really early,didn't she?
Like, yeah, which which leadsyou to which bias, David?
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
The price of it.
Well, I mean, by by mentioningthe pu the price very, very
early, what they're doing isthey're actually setting um a um
uh it's the anchoring bias.
That's right, yeah.
They're you know they're they'reanchoring the uh the idea that
um yes we can save the dog, butum it's probably gonna cost
between six and you know tenthousand dollars based on what
(11:14):
we currently know.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
Yeah.
And so again, you are anchoredto that first amount, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And and and once you agree toit, and and that was the that
was that was the thing that waspart of the hospital's business
process, you know, very earlyon.
Um here's an estimate, signthat.
Um and because you're in anemotional state, you want to
sign that really, reallyquickly, authorize all of this
stuff and committing to to aprocess, to tests, to
(11:42):
monitoring, etc., which may notbe absolutely necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
Yeah, and the other thing that is in play there, and
it's the same thing as when um asalesperson says, Do you like
this dress that you're tryingon?
And you go, Yes, I do.
And then we feel really bad ifyou turn around and say, No, I
don't want it, because we arestrongly driven by a cognitive
(12:09):
bias called the consistencybias.
So once I've said yes, we arecompelled, we feel compelled to
agree.
So she's trying to get us to sayyes.
And the other um part of it isis that you're, you know, we he
is a beloved animal, you know,he's a he's a very important and
loved member of our family, andthere's some sort of emotional
(12:33):
dynamic at play whereby youstart thinking, well, all she
wants to do is do some perfectlyreasonable blood tests, what
sort of dog parent are you thatyou wouldn't just agree if you
love the dog?
Yeah, if you love the dog, you'dsay yes to it.
You'd say yes, right.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Yeah.
So it it's your your yourcognitive thinking skills in
these sort of situations areabsolutely under attack.
SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
And and and so in an environment where the friendly,
warm, attractive people who havewelcomed you lovingly, who have
said nice things to your dog,who have reassured you that
you're absolutely in the rightplace, then say, you know, we
want you to, you know, sign upto you know between six and ten
(13:19):
thousand dollars worth of stuff,um, it is very difficult to
resist.
So what do you do in thatmoment?
You slow it down, you know, youjust take a take take a deep
breath.
And then if you want to if youwant to just uh look into say
why are these things included?
You know, you can ask aquestion.
(13:40):
So why is it that we would dothe blood test for the x-ray?
Before the x-ray, when the x-raymay actually suggest that the
blood test is not necessary.
And again, this isn't a DouglasHanley Moyer blood test that
goes on your Medicare card.
You know, this this blood testis is$500.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Um and and so I I I but we we'd been there about, I
don't know, 40 minutes and wewere already up to three grand.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
That's right.
That's right.
And and so that's the um and andthat's the that's the sunk cost,
isn't it?
That's the sunk cost.
You know, we're we've done thatthis much, you know.
We're on the train and and so wemight as well keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
Explain the sunk cost.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Well, the sunk cost is is is if you've is if you've
spent time or money or you know,emotional energy into something,
yeah, and then you realize thatactually it's not for you, it's
more difficult to then extricateyourself.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
Exactly.
So it you know, it can happen inall sorts of contexts.
Um the sunk cost fallacy can beat play.
You know, when you get on thephone and it's like, um, thank
you for your call.
Um you know, we we we're you arethe you are the fifth caller in
the queue.
And you think, well, I've beenon the phone for 15 minutes, um,
(14:56):
I may as well just hang on.
I've already spent that time,and you find yourself an hour
later, whereas actually it's abit a bit of a fallacy, it's a
it's a cognitive flaw.
And the other place, of course,it shows up is you know, I've
been in this relationship um for18 years, how can I walk out
now?
Yeah because of the the sunkcost of it.
(15:18):
So sunk cost can is is a areally big player in the quality
of our thinking because it'slike, well, you know, I've spent
5,000, what does it matter if Ispend another three, right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
And I've got to say that uh, you know, I I I was
pretty malleable and um and uh Idon't think you were.
You you don't think so?
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
No, not at all.
Really?
No, I thought you held your linereally well.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Well, I I I I was I was impressed and inspired by
you when you when when you didactually take a breath and you
asked, you know, why are wedoing it in that way, and then
and then requesting that theyapproach it in a in a way that
actually made more sense to us.
And uh and they could see thesense in that.
That was that that was fairenough.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Although when we exited the vet room with the
pretty vet and got out to thefront desk with another pretty
girl and she handed me the umthe invoice, which you know was
as I said, you know, was wasgoing up by about a thousand
dollars.
Thousands.
SPEAKER_00 (16:15):
I I know that if if you were to piece together some
of my comments on the on theissue, right, it it could I
could certainly sound like oneof those people who is just
absolutely vigilant that no oneis ever going to take them for a
ride.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Oh, you're not like that at all.
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
But um, you know what?
No, like I I I could I couldindulge that part of myself that
is suspicious.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
And I think that's an interesting point because
being um ubiquitously suspiciousis no more um um using your
critical thinking skills as justbeing gullible.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
Yeah, that's that's right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
It's all the same.
Like you if you you you have tobe looking at every issue and
applying your critical thinkingto every single issue, not just
going on on a sort of a roadthat sort of feels right.
Either they're trying to rip youoff, yes, right?
Or they're um they're just themost beautiful people in the
whole world and why don't youbuy everything?
SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Yeah, that that that that that's right.
And and and you know, you youyou you seem to think that I'm
not a a tremendously suspiciousperson, but it doesn't take long
for me to think about a businessmodel whereby you're looking
after people's pets in anemergency situation.
Yes, you can charge anastronomical margin on that, um,
and it makes sense to havepeople at the front desk who are
(17:33):
warm and friendly and who lovedogs, and you know it it it it's
not easy, sorry, it's notdifficult for me to imagine how
I could really think that theyare taking us for a ride.
And the I think the the dynamicis that when you are in an
environment where you areclearly lacking in status,
(17:55):
power, and authority, you know,like when you are with the
builder, the mechanic, thepolice officer, or the surgeons,
the experience of not havingpower in that relationship can
lead some people to think thatautomatically they're going to
be taken advantage of.
SPEAKER_01 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.
Oh, well, see that that's whereyou end up with a lot of the
conspirator this conspiratorialthinking um that's going on at
the moment.
I'm I'm sure it's in the Statesand Canada as well, but it's
very, very prevalent inAustralia, of um we will not
accede to the demands of thegovernment.
Like it, you know, it's it's soit's so mad and uh and sort of
(18:34):
anti-authoritarian but butreally misplaced and terribly
generic.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
You know, so the um Yeah, the generic possibility is
that when a human being findsthemselves in a in a
relationship, in a in asituation where they have no
power, they can immediately goto I'm going to be exploited
here.
And so I think that the thereframe that was important for
us last night um were us was usto just simply re reflect on on
(19:03):
the vet's perspective.
I mean, they are liable for theanimals that come into their
care.
They have professional ethics,they have standard procedures,
you know, they of course theyhave overheads.
You know, they are going to bemore expensive.
You know, to get a specialistsurgeon at one o'clock in the
morning on a Sunday evening, youknow, it's it's of course that's
going to be more expensive.
So, I mean, what we really hadto do was to recognise our own
(19:26):
biases that might have beencoming to the conclusion that
the bill's being padded, andthen actually shift to to
problem solving, you know, toask the question, so if we don't
do that blood test, what are youworried about?
Or, you know, if we don't, if wedon't you know put him on a
drip, what are the concerns?
And um and that way it it wemove from being casting
(19:46):
ourselves to victims to actuallybeing partners in, you know, in
in the dog's care.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think that's right.
So I think in these sort of sortof highly emotional situations
where you're sort ofhyper-aroused and I could feel
it in myself, you know, I had Ihad the the full gamut of um
anxiety symptoms coursingthrough my body.
(20:12):
You have to slow down theprocess.
It's essential that you stop, ggo for a short walk, have a cup
of tea, take a big breath, dosomething that actually
intervenes in the downwardspiral of your thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Because in situations like this, and and
and this was our experience, theprofessionals did regularly
defer to us and say they did.
What is it that you want to do?
You know, do you want himoperated here at this hospital,
or would you prefer that he wentto your local vet, you know, the
people that know him?
SPEAKER_01 (20:50):
And I guess what you're talking about there is is
um, you know, we were handedsome decisions, but only
decisions that we were actuallycapable of making.
I mean, clinical decisions wehaven't got a clue about.
But you need to be usingmetacognition, thinking about
your thinking.
And I think at one point uh whenthey called us this morning, and
the vet said to David, um, youcan either have the surgery
(21:13):
here, so this is this very SMICum this very, very SMIC
emergency vet, and he said, Youcan have the surgery here
because we are all highlytrained specialist surgeons, or
argument from authority,argument from authority, or you
can have the you can have himoperated on at your vet.
(21:37):
Now, they're very good, but theyare GPs and actually specialist
trained surgeons.
So there is so much in that onestatement.
Um, there's argument fromauthority, yes, yes, isn't
there?
Yes indeed.
There's a bit of a putting youemotionally over a barrel, like
how much do you care about thedog?
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (21:58):
If you really cared about the dog, why wouldn't you
go for the top surgeon?
Why would you go for a uh youknow a suburban GP?
You would use the special Youwould use the specialist.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
You would use the specialist sur uh But m in my
mind, um just my experience ofthe entire place um is that in
the specialist hospital thatexists to do surgeries on
animals who have got themselvesinto trouble, um, you know, my
suspicion is that they'dprobably be a bit more trigger
(22:30):
happy, you know, that they wouldbe happy to use their expensive
machines and and and highly youknow highly le highly highly
experienced surgeons to do thisjob when actually a less
interventionist route might havebeen possible, and I thought
that he'd probably get that atthe GP at the at the local vets.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
What you said, which I thought was right, when he
said that, which I thought wasvery loaded, um very, very
loaded, you know, around howmuch do we care about the dog,
what you said was, which ofcourse is correct when you're
put into these positions, is howlong do we have to make this
decision?
Yeah.
(23:11):
Because there's so much in thatthat can be used to trigger you
emotionally to make a poordecision that you what you need
is time to rationally thinkthrough your thinking.
So that's metacognition.
Yeah, it's like metacognitionthinking about your thinking.
You're not you cannot make anaccurate decision in those sorts
(23:34):
of situations unless you giveyourself time to overcome your
biases.
This notion that I really like,which is treat your feelings as
hypotheses, not conclusions.
SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Yeah, I mean we don't want to make emotions the
enemy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
No, we don't.
We ex that's the other side ofit.
Yeah, absolutely.
Emotions are not they're not theabsolute pristine truth.
It's an emotion, it's a feeling,but at the same time, we
absolutely need feelings toguide us as well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Exactly.
I mean, right back at the startof the story, you were quite
anxious about writer's demeanor,and I was not so anxious about
writers' demeanor.
Neither of our emotional stateswas the whole truth, but they
were just kind of as you say,you know, they were they were
informing what we thought wasactually going on.
Yeah.
Um, I had more evidence, then Igot emotional, I got worried
(24:20):
about him, and then I thought,well, if Annie's worried about
him and I'm worried about him,then that's it.
Let's take him to the let's takehim to the vet.
Um, you know, the emotions thatthat we had when we were in
there, I mean, yes, we were wewere relieved, you know, we were
relieved that we were in thesafe place.
SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
Just being in a clinical environment and that
somebody was going to, you know,help him, I immediately felt
better.
Yes.
Immediately.
SPEAKER_00 (24:43):
And then when they started throwing these
astronomical numbers at me, Iwas feeling confused.
You know?
I was feeling confused.
And the hypothesis you feltsick.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
And and then I and then I got I got into bed and
then I just couldn't sleepbecause I I kept thinking about
what was the right thing to do,and then worrying that Ryder was
on his own with with andwouldn't know where he was.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
And and and so we should we shouldn't we shouldn't
shame ourselves.
You you you can't, you know, uhtake people feeling emotional in
these situations as some kind offailure or markdown.
Those emotions actually do helpus to make decisions because
they are closely linked to whatwe value and and and what we
want to preserve.
(25:25):
But yes, the emotion is not theconclusion.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
No, the emotion is just the hypothesis, and and it
is absolutely part of the frame.
It's just not the whole frame,correct?
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think if you just sort ofhave a bit of a, you know, if we
just go back over the wholething, and we will let you know
on Thursday how Rider is becausehe's still in surgery, which is
really awful.
Um so look, when your heart isbeating out of your chest, which
mine was, that is your cue toslow your thinking.
(26:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
And when you don't agree to everything that is
offered to you by the builder,the mechanic, or the surgeon,
it's not that you're necessarilydistrusting people, it's about
tracking your own reasoning.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
Exactly.
Remaining present with yourthinking in the dynamic, right?
You're not handing it overcompletely.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
And I think that's really key.
It's just occurred to me.
You're not just handing it overthe whole premise, you're going,
I'm involved in this, to thedegree to which I can be, to the
degree to uh the knowledge thatI have.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Yes, yeah.
And and you know, I I I'm I'mdoing a lot of thinking about
collaboration at the moment, youknow, collaboration as a as a
skill and as a discipline thatyou can bring into all sorts of
environments.
And I do think that to go intothe healthcare system or into
any of these kind of projectswhere you're working with a
(26:57):
professional and maybe anexpensive professional, you get
the balance right so that youare in a collaborative
relationship with that personthat you step up.
You know, you don't necessarilywait for them to offer to
collaborate with you, yeah, butyou send signals early on that
this is what collaboration meansto me.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
This is my to do that.
I think you're the you know,we've all got not all of us, but
I know I've got approvalseeking, and so do you.
I think you've sort of got todisengage from your pro your
approval seeking.
Like I'm gonna say something,and maybe I won't be approved of
in this minute, right?
Yes, maybe it it's not gonnamake them like me more, and
(27:40):
that's gonna make youuncomfortable, but maybe that's
what's necessary.
Yes.
Even with her last night, when Ihad to say, Well, I don't think
this bit's necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Oh, the lady at the uh at the hospital.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, I mean, I guess there was a part of me
that just wanted to go, oh mygod, just spend just whatever
you think.
Just tell just with the money isof no object, just save the dog.
Right?
There was a part of me thatwanted to be seen as a pet owner
with extreme largesse.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yes, like like like Shirley McLean in terms of
endearing endearment.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Running around hitting this the thing.
SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
So saying, Save my dog.
SPEAKER_01 (28:14):
Save my dog, save my dog.
So I mean, I think that thesummary that we can think about
is you know, the emotionalreason, you know, confusing
feeling with fact.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Okay, right?
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
You know, name the emotion that you're having,
which is very hard when you'reunder pressure, and then look
for the evidence, ask forevidence.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
Yeah, I'm frightened, I'm suspicious, I'm
um I'm um wary.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Yeah.
And then, of course, this isvery much in play is the
authority bias, so over-relyingon experts.
And what should you do instead,David?
SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
Well, we we do rely on experts, but we can ask.
But but but we can ask them toshare their reasoning.
Yeah, perfect.
Yeah, how how do you how how howdo you how do you reason your
way through this diagnosis, youknow, to to to this kind of
treatment?
Don't just reassure me that he'sgoing to be all right if you do
what you say.
Tell me why you are holding thatparticular view.
SPEAKER_01 (29:10):
Um, so um anchoring bias, the first number shapes
all our judgments.
That first number really lodgesitself in our brain.
So you have to put that asideand do what, David?
SPEAKER_00 (29:23):
Well, I mean, you just you can respectfully ask
the question um, what does thatcover?
You know, why is it such a largetotal?
Um, is this the final amount?
Are any variations possible?
Yeah.
Yeah, just seek to understandthe number, knowing that when
that number is agreed to, it'llprobably then be anchored.
SPEAKER_01 (29:44):
Yeah.
So the availability heuristic,you know, I know um, you know,
it it it's it's like the we'remuch more likely to be
frightened getting in anaeroplane as opposed to driving
our car, but in actuality youare in much.
More danger of having anaccident driving to the corner
shop than you are flying aroundthe world, and that is the
(30:06):
reality of the data.
But it's the availabilityheuristic.
Um, you know, plane accidentsare very dramatic, so they lodge
in the front of our brains, andthey're what come to mind.
So what comes to mind when yourdog becomes ill is every story
you've ever heard, horrorstories about dogs becoming ill
and something terrible happeningto them.
(30:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
So the thing to ask is You know, is it is this
typical in this situation, or isit just a is it just a
heuristic?
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Is this typical or is itmemorable?
The sunk cost fallacy, look,we've come this far, we've
already spent six grand, youknow, what's another three?
It's an absolute trap, and it'sit traps us, as I said before
earlier in the podcast, it trapsus in relationships, it traps us
in phone calls, and it traps usfinancially.
SPEAKER_00 (30:55):
So cast yourself as a partner in the collaboration,
and every new decision is a newdecision.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
It's yeah, yeah, you you don'tyou don't you don't fall into
the trap of saying, oh what'sanother six grand?
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
Yeah, and confirmation bias.
So um, you know, confirm we wecherry pick the environment and
only and only notice thingswhich agree with what we already
think.
So the only way to actually umget out of the trap, the massive
(31:29):
trap of confirmation bias isDavid.
SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
Well, the way to get out of that is to um is to
almost like apply the scientificmethod, you know?
How could I be wrong?
Search for for disconfirminginformation, yeah.
Uh and um and have the have theinternal stability to actually
ask yourself, you know, how canI be wrong about this?
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Yeah.
So that's our that's our wherewe are currently with our
beloved Grudel.
We are still waiting to hear howhe is, um, and we will let you
know on Thursday.
So um thank you very much forlistening to our story.
(32:10):
It's been a bit traumatic.
Um me, I don't drink Monday orTuesday nights because I'm a
rule, fairly rule-bound person,but tonight I'm gonna have a big
glass of Sauignon Blanc.
SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
And I'm gonna pour it for you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
Thank you.
So thank you, David, for joiningme.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
You're you're very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (32:30):
Thank you.
And um thank you so much,listeners, for tuning in.
Stay safe, stay well, keep yourcritical thinking hats on.
See you soon.
Bye.
Oh, can you please subscribe?
That's what I had to say.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yes, Richard Saunders told me,who is um has the Skeptic Zone
podcast, that I have to ask atthe end of every episode to
(32:52):
please subscribe.
And I've never done that becauseI'm a little bit useless.
So Harry will put I don't knowhow to do that.
Harry will put something in thelink.
SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Harry will put something in the link.
Yeah.
And um, and know that um thatthat that any support for the
Why Smart Women podcast isactually going to return a
lovely grudel to full health.
We're gonna have to pay thesebills and uh maybe the podcast
can earn a bit of money.
SPEAKER_01 (33:18):
It's hilarious.
Thanks, guys.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
(33:38):
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
(34:00):
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
(34:22):
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from White Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hest.
(34:45):
It was executive produced andwritten by me, Annie McCubbin.
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