November 24, 2025 • 33 mins
We unpack the psychology that makes property buying so risky and share the biases that almost had us purchasing a unit above a bong shop because of plantation shutters. We lay out simple steps to slow down your thinking, separate what can change from what cannot, and make a cleaner call.
• urgency and fatigue pushing “that’ll do” choices
• halo effect from shiny features masking defects
• anchoring on price guides and fake discounts
• scarcity pressure and authority cues from agents
• sunk cost from time, travel and rapport
• overconfidence about “fixing” structural limits
• confirmation bias and selective evidence
• endowment effect and loss aversion once attached
• optimism bias around income, rates and levies
• practical guardrails and a cooling-off habit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, and you're McCub,and I'm the woman of a certain
age.
I've made my own spirit ofreally bad decisions.
Not my death.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back.
Today I am broadcasting.
No, I'm not, I'm podcasting.
Broadcasting different topodcasting?
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
Yes, it is.
Yeah, broad broad broadcastingis like you cut you you cast
broadly, and then when you'repodcasting, you just you broad
you you you cast into thesomeone's pods.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
So I'm podcasting today from umDY, Sydney, New South Wales,
Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Do you think people really want to know that?
SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Yes, they do want to know that.
It's very interesting for you toknow where I am that I'm in DY.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
You spend many seconds every every episode
talking about being in DY.
I know, but people talking aboutthe nasty weather.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
And today it's windy, but we're heading into
our uh beautiful summer.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Come on, summer.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Um yeah.
Come on, summer.
Come on, you can do it, summer.
Um, hello to everybody.
We have listeners in Jamaica,uh, in Ukraine.
I'm sorry about that, and I wedo think about you often.
Um Japan and many, many in theUnited States and Canada, Canada
and New Zealand.
So hello, hello from Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
And for those that Annie didn't mention, sorry,
it's because she has a badmemory.
It's not that that she thinksthat your nation is unimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
It's true.
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
So um I'll tell you what we're going to talk about.
And if anybody on this podcasthas ever gone and um spent their
time looking for a place to buy,then you are going to really
appreciate um the cognitivebiases that David and I have
come across.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
This is the special real estate episode.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Real estate real estate episode.
So um David and I have beenassisting our son um in looking
for a new apartment uh to buy.
And what this has meant is thaton Saturdays we get in the car
and and we drive thousands ofkilometres uh in the heat and
(03:00):
the the terrible weather toassist him in this process.
It's not true.
We don't drive thousands ofkilometres, though Hundreds.
Well, it's it you know, it's agood hour from um the northern
beaches in Sydney um to the tothe more western suburbs of
Sydney, but that's what we'vebeen doing, and we have been
(03:21):
caught in terrible traffic alongthe way, Saturday traffic, but
such is the devotion of us asparents.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Oh yeah, we're so devoted.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
We're very devoted, aren't we?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
So devoted.
We kicked him out.
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Yeah, we kicked him out, and now he has to buy
something to live in.
So we've been going out andhelping him in looking at these
properties.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
That's right.
You know, choosing between thehouses of uh straw, the the
houses of sticks, and the housesof stone.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Well, I've I'm the the earliest introduction.
Well, the earliest introductionthat any of us had had to real
estate, I think, was the storyof the three little pigs.
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
You tell that while I go and put my hair back.
Go on.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah, tell the tell the story.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Everybody knows the story of the three little pigs.
Look, I'm doing this undersufferance.
Yes, Annie's just left the roomto fix her hair.
I don't know why that'simportant.
This is an audio podcast.
But the first little pig builthis house out of straw because
he thought it would be easy, um,but it didn't stand up to the
(04:23):
wind.
Well, or the blowing of a wolf.
Um neither did the house ofsticks, which was the house of
the second pig.
Um that was also blown over.
I don't know why I'm telling youthis story.
The third house was made out ofbricks and the wolf couldn't
blow it over, and so that wasprobably a good investment and
um saved the pigs' lives.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yes, that's right.
Quiet piggy.
But but how was that?
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Quiet Piggy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
How was that?
That was a that was a badmoment.
SPEAKER_02 (04:51):
That was a that that was a nice moment of of status
reinforcement where the wherethe president really wanted to
put that young journalist inher.
It's really delightful.
So one day we'll do an episodeon the the cognitive biases that
you find in in media um andinterviews with politicians.
But today we're talking aboutreal estate.
And probably there's there thereare a few um activities that
(05:13):
human beings engage in that aremore replete with cognitive
biases and heuristics and thepossibility that you're going to
make a bad decision than realestate.
And the other good thing aboutreal estate is because the
wheels go so slowly, you've gotplenty of time to actually
examine your thinking.
It's true.
You be it caught in traffic oror something don't examine our
(05:38):
thinking.
Okay.
Cognitive bias number one.
Urgency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Well, I just don't, I mean, I I get out there and I
s because I don't like it, Idon't like being, you know, I
want to come home again.
So what happens to me is I seesomething that's sort of vaguely
okay, I go, that'll do.
That'll do.
What?
Yeah, I do do a little bit.
I'm like, well, that seems fine.
There was two on last Saturdaywhere I go, yeah, we'll just get
(06:02):
that.
Because I I don't want to keeplooking.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Oh, right, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
So um, so that's one bias is just um, you know, try
post-rationalizing.
So the feeling I have inside meis I'm sick of this.
We've been this is the seventhone I've looked at.
Can we just buy one?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Which is very poor thinking on my part.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
And and look a little bit of a little bit of
context.
Um last year, but actually itwas about this time last year
that Annie and I entered the thethe property market for the
first time in like about 24years.
We had uh we had a a lovely.
I was just gonna say, you know,we had a we had a lovely, rather
unique um property um up inBeacon Hill on Sydney's northern
(06:46):
beaches.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
You can't use you can't use my speech rhythms
trying to sound interesting,then my speech rhythms are.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
And uh and and so in the in in that in that event we
were we were we were the vendor,we were the seller.
We were also buying at the sametime, and we've been through the
process with our son, as Anniewas saying.
Um and so um yeah, these thecognitive biases and heuristics
that arise are really um uh sortof top of mind at the moment.
And one of them is the haloeffect.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Yeah, the halo effect's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Because it worked in our favour.
It worked very much in ourfavour.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
As vendors.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
As vendors.
You explain what the halo effectis, and I'll explain how it
works for you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
So, you know, so the halo effect is when something is
good, like an element ofsomething, or like if you take a
human being, if you really likethe human being or find the
human being attractive, what canoften happen is they then have a
halo around their head, and thatyou may infer upon them
(07:42):
qualities that you don't thatthey actually don't have.
So I may think the the best oneI can think of is Gwynneth
Paltrow, who's a very, very goodactor.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Oh, she's a great actor.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
She's a fantastic actor.
So you might look at her and go,She's really pretty, um, she's a
really good actor, and then youlook at her products that she
sells through her um her woo-woofantasy land, which they call
goop.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
You know, you know why it's goop.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Gwyneth Paltrow, G, P, first, last letters.
What it's uh and then you'vemade that up.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
No, well Goop is also stuff you put on your face.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Exactly, exactly.
So it was convenient that thethe stuff that you put on your
face have the first and lastletter.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Anyway, if I can get back to the you don't know that
you've made that up about the GPthing, haven't you?
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
No, I th I would I I haven't made it up.
It's it's obvious, it'sself-evident.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
It's not.
Anyway, um because she's veryattractive and um apparently
only eats apples and I don'tknow, kale or something.
SPEAKER_02 (08:47):
No, that was her son.
She called her son Apple.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Oh yeah.
Anyway, she like but barely eatsand just I don't know, is
constantly giving herself coffeeenemies.
I don't know what she does, butanyway, she's got this company
called Goop, which is a terriblepurveyor of pseudoscience,
woo-woo, uh, which as we know isdangerous because once you go
down that path, you're lesslikely to believe the science.
So she has a halo on her head.
Pretty actress develops apseudoscientific product line
(09:13):
which is sort of drowning inglitter and glamour, and people
buy it for that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
So it's what has that got to do with real estate?
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
I'm explaining what the halo effect is.
Okay.
So so if you talk look aboutthat in a in a real estate
sitch, then a single appealingfeature like an ocean view or a
renovated bathroom or greatlight, then colours your
perception of the entireproperty, and you start ignoring
floors because that one feature,right, the halo of it, feels
(09:43):
like the proof of overallquality.
And so the impact of that is youcan, you know, overlook
structural features or noise orbody court problems or
something.
And I did it.
I'm telling you, I did this.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
I did it with the property that we that we looked
at above the shop.
Remember that one above theshop.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
The property above the shop.
Do you know what I got hookedon?
How big it was?
Three bedrooms?
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
I got hooked well, more than the three bedrooms.
I got tragically hooked on thefact that they'd put really nice
white plant plantation shuttersover the windows.
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
Oh my god, yes.
This was the scongiest, youknow, X, you know, brothel or
something like that.
It was it was above a shop withdecaying awnings and um It was
really terrible.
I mean, the you know, the thethe strip of shops underneath
it, you know, convenience store,um uh fish and chips, there was
a bong shop there.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
It wasn't great.
Well the whole thing, but thething is I walked in, I went,
oh, and then the real estateagent said to me, Look, it's
really beautiful.
Look at the kitchen.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Plantation shutters.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Plantation shutters, and then Laughlin had sensibly
opened one of the plantationshutters and behind it the
windows were all broken.
SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
Yep.
Yeah, but but the but the factthat the broken windows were
concealed by a plantationshutter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah, um and then and then he cleverly that guy
used the anchoring bias.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Ah, the anchoring bias.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
The anchoring bias is really, really interesting
because if they say, look, um,you know, this is worth um, I
don't know, five hundred andthirty thousand.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Right.
And then you find that so you'reanchored to that number, right?
You get anchored to it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And then when they say, Oh, actually you can get it
for 510,000, you're like,awesome saving of 20 grand, even
though the 530 was an imaginarynumber.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
It was arbitrary in the first place.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, um, and of course, they doit all the do that all the time
because what they're doing,they're using the anchoring
bias, and the other thing thatthey do is the scarcity bias,
which is oh yeah.
Look, we we've had a lot ofinterest in this.
There's very, very fewproperties that are in this sort
of location with this sort ofaccess to public transport,
(12:05):
right, that have had this amountof quality renovation.
This is a very, very, very rareproperty.
Yes.
So if you don't act now, what'sgonna happen?
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Yeah, you're gonna miss out.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
You're gonna miss out.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And scarcity is a classic because it absolutely
flips the switch from strategicright, strategic um reasoning to
just being impulsive.
It must be dreadful for peoplewith ADHD like yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Oh, it's shocking.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
Is it shocking?
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean I I um as I said,you know, g real estate, I can I
can see all of these these thesecognitive errors just working
away.
Yeah.
You know, they put their theirbusiness clothes on, they look
really legitimate, and then Ican I can hear my mind saying to
me, listen, you've got to we'vegot to put an offer on this
place now.
You know, it's it's well abovewhat we want to spend, but but
(12:53):
properties like this don't comeonto the market.
Um, you know, the the the vendoris obviously motivated to sell,
you know, we could we could geta real advantage if we just
acted quickly.
Yeah.
If we backed ourselves.
Do you know?
I wonder whether this has hadanything to do with the um
Commonwealth Bank's latestadvertisement.
Um so yeah, the CommonwealthBank is one of Australia's
(13:14):
largest banks, um, and they'vejust gone into the public arena
with this thing Doubt Never Did.
That's the slogan, doubt neverdid.
Don't doubt yourself, go for it.
Oh go for it, buy for buy thehouse, buy the car.
Doubt never did.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
And of course, that that absolutely plugs into one
of my all-time Don't doubtyourself.
Don't absolutely loathed uminferences, which is everyone
should just trust theirinstincts because your gut will
just will, you know, lead you inthe right direction.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
That is so irresponsible.
In my gut, if I'd gone with mygut, yes, you would have bought
that dreadful place above thebong shop.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
With the above the bong shop with the terrible
plantation shutters.
Um the other thing is we had totake the dogs with us on the
journey because we couldn'tleave them in the apartment.
SPEAKER_02 (14:02):
Oh, but I know where you're going with I I know where
you're going with this.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
And then so you know, I then have to text
neighbours and can you take themup for a Wii or whatever?
Da.
So we took the dogs, yeah.
We took the dogs and then thatreal estate agent said said
those dogs are my god, they arethe most beautiful dogs.
And then complimented the car.
Oh my god.
Look at your cute littleelectric, blue electric car, and
(14:27):
aren't your dogs adorable?
And I was like, I really want tobuy something off you.
Yes.
As soon as I as soon as I likesomeone, and I tell you the
other thing they do is they usemy name.
What's your name?
Yeah, Annie.
And as soon as they say, um,yeah, Annie, look, I love your
dogs, love your car.
Look, this is look, there'sobviously there's things that
(14:48):
need to be done to thisproperty, Annie.
But um I don't know.
I know and also you know whatelse?
He knows me.
You know what else he said tome?
What did he say?
He said, You must be so proud ofyour son for getting into the
market.
And me, me, I'm like, Jewishmother.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm really my son, my help,help, my son, the lawyer is
drowning.
(15:09):
Yeah, so um, yeah, so I'm I andhe said all help help my son,
the lawyer, is trying to buy ahouse.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah, help help.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
And then, you know, I'm like, yeah, I am really
proud.
And he was like, Yeah, well, youknow, when I was 33, I was just
married and still living in homewith my parents.
Your son's doing amazing, andI'm like, Yeah, he is doing
amazing.
Also, you really like my car andmy dogs, and you think my son's
amazing.
I want to buy something off you,yeah, that's right.
And you use my name.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
That's right.
That sounds like halo effect tome.
That sounds like really solidhalo effect.
But also, also, I reckon thatkind of relationship, um, you
know, when the real estate agentknows your name, appreciates
your dog, admires your car.
You've come all this way fromthe northern beaches, from the
northern beaches, then you're indanger of falling prey to the uh
(15:57):
sunk cost fallacy.
And that is, I've spent all thistime, I've got to know this
person.
I don't want to have to gothrough the process of getting
to know anybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
I I I don't want to go through the process of having
to look at another property.
So um, so you you you you youdouble down on the the agent or
the property that um that you'veyou've you've become attached to
because it's sunk cost isabsolutely classic, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
It's the sunk cost, I love it, because it's like you
know, the other context whereyou're like you've been holding
on the phone to Telstra for whatfeels like nine years, right?
But you cannot hang up.
You cannot hang up becauseotherwise you've wasted Yeah,
you've wasted all that time.
All that time on the phone.
Whereas in fact, if you justhung up and then called back at
(16:44):
another time, that would betotally fine.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, that's right.
You know, uh um I'm gonna I'mgonna just do a little dangerous
thought experiment here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Um, you know, if if you think about our
relationship, Annie, and all theyears that we've been married.
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
Yeah, you could leave me.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Well, no, I got some cost fallacy.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
We've spent this long.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
I've spent this long.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
You may as well yeah, but so you may as well
stay the course.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
It's gotta get good sometime.
You know, the pendulum swings.
It's gotta come back.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
Yeah, at some point, yeah.
So that's right.
You've spent, you know, it'sbeen well that is actually what
happens to people to people indisastrous relationships.
It's exactly why people don'tdivorce.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yes, but but darling, I I wouldn't describe
our relationship as disastrous.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
Um There's redeeming qualities, features.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
Yeah, there are some redeeming qualities and
features, and um and you know, Ifigure I'll be able to sort it
out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Can you fix me?
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah, well you reckon you can fix me.
Like I can fix a property with alick of paint, you know, just
just put a lick of paint onthat, you know, put some
plantation shutters in, and umand then the place will be
magnificent to live in.
And that's and that's theoverconfidence bias.
Well, I think You know, I canmake this work, I can make this
property work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Yeah, but we've missed that we've missed the
big, you know, the big mother ofall biases.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
What's that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Which confirmation bias.
You know, once you've decided, Imean that's the thing, once you
decide it, you know, I've walkedin and it's got nice plantation
shutters and three bedrooms andand a nicely renovated bathroom,
and the guy's used my name andcomplimented my son and my car
and my dogs.
Yes.
Confirmation bias.
I'm like, yeah, I want it.
I know any you justunconsciously cherry pick any
(18:26):
bit of data that doesn't fit mycurrent desire.
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
What about the fact that it's a long way away from
public transport?
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
Really?
What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
He's not my it's not my problem.
He's living there, it's not me.
It doesn't matter, you see, inmy confirmation biased brain.
Once I've decided he should buythis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
But what about the fact that the you know the
bedrooms don't have any aspectout there?
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
It doesn't matter.
He can put pictures out there.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
It's pretty small, you know.
How are we gonna how's he gonnafit?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
But that's okay because he's he's you know, he's
a kid, he doesn't, you know,he's doesn't what does he need?
He hasn't got children.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
All of which sounds like um, you know, practical,
pragmatic, motherly advice.
It's not, it's confirmationbias.
SPEAKER_00 (19:03):
It's all confirmation bias, and um, of
course, you know, I make anemotional decision and then we
just post-rationalise it.
It's fraught.
It's absolutely fraud.
The process is fraught, andwe're sort of aware of this
stuff, but I just I forget.
As soon as I'm there, yeah.
My my any notion of me applyingmy own um critical thinking
skills just goes out the window,pretty much.
(19:25):
I then have to walk away, get inthe car, and start thinking.
Yeah, I really have to applymyself, David.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because there is that thing thathappens when you uh when you
leave the property and then youstart fantasizing about yourself
living in that uh in that unit,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Or he's he's he how nice it would be for Lockheed to
be in there.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there he is, and he only hasto go downstairs and he can get
his teeth fixed.
And he can get his teeth fixedat the dentist, he can buy a
bong, he can um you know go geta bottle of uh w of wine, even
though he doesn't drink, and hecould start.
He can have he can applyhimself.
Enriching cultural experienceswith the um everyone was lovely.
(20:07):
With the other people wanderingaround in the street.
And um and and they actuallycall this the endowment bias,
that you start to imagineyourself or your son or
somebody, you know, living theperfect life in this place, and
uh again you do the work of thereal estate agent for them, you
know.
You you you you look at thecity.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Well, I think what happens is you you plug into
that endowment effect, so evenbefore you've bought it, you can
imagine living there, yeah,which then tips your brain into
loss aversion.
So suddenly I've imagined thator I've imagined Lockie living
there, right?
So losing it, he'd love it,right?
That's right.
Life in South Granville.
Life in South Granville abovethe bong shop.
(20:48):
Why would you want to why wouldyou want to give that up?
And then you get into lossaversion.
So the weird thing about lossaversion, it's a very
interesting cognitive bias, isthat what it does to your brain,
it starts to hate the idea ofloss more intensely than it
values equivalent gain.
So you do anything then toavoid, you know, to to to
(21:11):
because your aversion to loss isso great.
And remember, this is happeningunconsciously in the brain,
right?
Yeah, that's right.
So suddenly I'm saying to this,to my son, look, this is you
know, because I've decided heshould have it because of the
plantation shutters and etc.
etc.
And the guy used my name andliked the car like the dogs.
Yes.
So then what would happen isyou'd start saying, Look, you
(21:32):
can stretch your budget, and allof the red flags then get
rationalized and you take risks.
That's how you get into thisterrible state of taking risks
you shouldn't take.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
The optimism bias, where you say, you know, I'm
gonna get a whole lot more lotmore work this year, or interest
rates are going to come down andI'll be able to afford the
payment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
So optimism bias is my greatest, is my greatest
flaw.
I mean, I've got a lot of flaws.
I do no come on, come on.
No, really, yeah, I know it's asurprise to you after 30
something years.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
No, no, I don't know.
I've got to tell you though,optimism bias.
Yes, you know, the way there'sjust all this, man, let's get
some optimism and positivityhappening.
I'm telling you, I have made somany mistakes because I'm
fundamentally I'm highlyoptimistic.
It's in my personality.
SPEAKER_02 (22:15):
Okay, so are you optimistic about the world?
Are you uh optimistic about theway that you're going to be able
to rise to the occasion?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah, just yeah, just yeah, I just assume things
will are going to work out.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
I sometimes get the feeling that you're not terribly
optimistic about me though.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
No, yes, I am.
Are you?
100%.
I always think everything'sgoing to be fine.
All right, okay.
Oh good.
I have a lot of tr uh wildlyperhaps misplaced levels of
trust in your capacities.
SPEAKER_02 (22:43):
Yeah, well, time will tell, won't it?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
So, you know, if you think about um optimism bias in
relation to um, you know,perhaps making a purchase, you
know, oh, because I know whatthere was.
There was this notion that therewas going to be the special
levies.
The special levies.
And and it was like they werelike, it's not going to matter.
There is special levies andthere's capital works involved
(23:08):
in this, but it's probably onlyc gonna cost you 30 grand over
10 years.
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
Yeah, just a little bit of waterproofing for the for
the for the you know thebuilding.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Yeah, so then you go, oh, okay, 30,000 over 10
years sounds fine.
And so then you expect thefuture to bend to your hopes,
right?
So you're hoping that they'reright, because I said to the
guy, well, that won't be lockeddown, because I do manage when
I'm actually in there with anestate agent to actually ask
questions.
I said, Well, we don't actuallyknow that, do we?
(23:36):
We don't know that that it'sgoing to be locked at 30,
because exactly what we know hashappened to people, it started
off at 13 and it's ended up at150,000 extra.
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
How old are your dogs?
Aren't they lovely?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Yeah, that's fine.
30 sounds great.
Okay.
Um, so then of course, as weknow, um, and you've already
mentioned this, that real estateagents turn up, they've always
got the same um narrow lapeledsuits on, haven't they?
Yes, stovepipe, sort of thestovepipe trousers, very, very
(24:07):
shiny, expensive shoes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:09):
Yeah, do you I mean do you do you find your do you
notice the the real estateagents' shoes?
Always.
I always do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
I always do.
What is it?
What is it about that?
SPEAKER_02 (24:17):
They're very shiny.
They're they're sh so that'slike a rule.
Is that a heuristic?
If if the shoes are good, it's asuccessful real estate agent.
If the shoes are shabby, maybethey're not.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah, 100%.
So look, you've got agents,builders, doctors, you know,
bankers, whatever.
Anyone who looks confident feelsmore credible than they actually
are.
It's the authority buyers.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it.
The authority buyers.
Would you would you would youwould you rather deal with a
shabby real estate agent, youknow, who maybe isn't so slick,
is not going to use so manyclever, you know, might be a bit
down on his luck, you know,might work harder for you.
Or would you prefer to deal witha real estate agent with very
(25:03):
shiny shoes, a very dry cleansuit, you know, clean hair, you
know, is on top of it, smoothtalking, etcetera, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
No, that's a pointless question.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
Well, because you've inferred that just because
somebody has turned up and is abit sort of shabbier and has
taken less time with theirtoilet.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Like the like the Colombo of uh real estate
agents.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
Then that infers credibility.
It makes no difference.
How would I know what they'relike?
Just what I'm going to suddenlygo, oh, you're shabby, you're
going to tell me the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Oh, hang on a uh uh uh are you are you speaking from
the enlightened mind at themoment?
I thought we were looking atheuristics.
Oh, like oh if you weren't ifyou weren't applying critical
thinking, yeah, do you thinkyou'd be able to run rings
around a shabby one?
Um and yet the uh the veryprofessional looking one will
probably do a job on you.
What do you reckon?
What would your expectation be?
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Yeah, I I would think that I'd be more inclined
if with the the the snick one.
Oh really?
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
You'd rather have the schmick one?
SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
I don't understand the question.
I don't know.
What mind am I being applyingcritical thinking?
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
No, no, not at the moment.
This is this is your unguardedself.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Unguarded self.
I don't know, I can't tell.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
All right.
Then it probably wasn't.
I just look at Lochlan.
Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
I just look at Lochlan, who's our boy who has a
very interesting relationship toclothing.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Oh, he doesn't value the externals at all.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
And yet he's he's um he he works in a very specific
area of the law, um, and he'svery, very good at it, very
caring, very nice, very bright,very smart.
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Yeah, he's got that lovely combination of being
super smart, but he's also superconscientious.
Yeah, he is.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
He's compassionate and yet he he looks like he
looks like his clients.
So um he does.
Well, that's why they like him.
It's just interesting, right?
Yeah.
So I mean the thing is sorry?
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
In real estate?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
I don't know.
It was a really confusingquestion you asked me before.
It what would I rather?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Do I would I think I could run route rings about
someone in my unconscious selfthat was shabbier?
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, would you would you lookat them and go, oh, this real
estate agent's a bit down on hisluck.
Probably.
I could probably push him hard.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Probably.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
Okay, but it's a bias, right?
It is a bias.
Because some the way someonepresents is an absolute
irrelevancy to how much you canactually manipulate them to your
yeah.
So um look, we've I think we'vediscussed um we've discussed the
scarcity bias and the urgency.
Urgency bias is massive.
You've got to do this now,you've got to get into the
(27:32):
market, you've got to buy thistoday.
SPEAKER_02 (27:34):
Yeah, actually, you know, you want you want to put
an offer in, you want to youwant to take the property out of
the market before it goes toauction.
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
You've got to do that because otherwise you're
never gonna get a property likethis.
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
Yeah, you're gonna do that.
So look, um So how do you tellthe difference between the two?
How do you how do you how howhow do we how do we keep our
thinking caps on um when we'rein the real estate uh game?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Well, uh what you have to do is watch for any
emotionality that is creepinginto your brain.
So as soon as, you know, as soonas I get in the car, I actually
do do this and I go, Oh, thatwould be really good.
I then have to actually um dosome serious analysis of my
(28:20):
thinking.
You have to analyze yourthinking, and I think the way to
start is the first time you geta strong feeling about
something.
You know, I really love this,okay.
Take yourself away, go and sitin the park, go and sit in the
car, do something.
Why do you like it?
Same with I hate this property.
Couple of times, I just hatedthe property, yet if I'd applied
(28:42):
more critical thinking to it,maybe it was more redeemable
because the location was better,even if in the interior wasn't
great.
SPEAKER_02 (28:50):
Okay, so so you're saying as soon as you recognize
whether you are moving towardsthe property or away from the
property, if I was just to putit really, really simply, you
know, you move you're movingtowards it.
Um that you slow it down and yougo, okay, what am I moving
towards?
Correct.
(29:10):
Am I moving towards access topublic transport?
Am I moving towards space?
Am I looking moving towardscommunity?
Am I look moving towards andthen ask, is this relevant?
You know, is it is it realistic?
Am I evaluating this correctly?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Well, to my brother's point, um What would
your brother know that?
My brother, who's been in realestate for about 900 years, um,
he said yesterday, you can'tchange the location and you
can't change the size, right?
Yeah, and that that's that's thereality.
You can't change the quality ofthe building.
Anything on the inside that'scosmetic, you can change it.
(29:50):
Yeah, but if you're in a craplocation, you're going to be in
a crap location.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
So, I mean, I think um, you know, don't get caught
up in the you know, the new smitkit.
And the Renault bathroom.
Um, you know, if you pull theblind up and you're looking out
at a brick wall when a viewmatters to you.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Okay, so it's an extra hundred thousand dollars
more, we could always tightenour belts and maybe I'll get
that job, then you go, uh oh, Inoticed that maybe it's the
optimism.
Optimism bias.
You know, or I'mpost-rationalizing, or I'm
using, you know, confirmationbias.
Confirmation bias is just thebiggest one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
It's the biggest one.
You just unconsciously cherrypick the environment to arrive
at the conclusion that yourbrain wants you to arrive at.
It's an absolute killer.
SPEAKER_02 (30:41):
I've got I've I've I've got what I think is is is
is probably the smartest thingthat you can do in this
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
What is that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:48):
You keep telling us that the problem with
unconscious bias is that they'reunconscious, that you don't
notice that they're happy.
So this is probably a good timeto pick up the phone and call
Uncle Paul or call your mum orcall your brother or something
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Yeah, call another person.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
And notice when you talk to them about the property,
are you trying to convince them?
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
Yeah.
You know?
Or do you just genuinely wantfeedback?
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
You know, it it's you know, it's it's it's it's
very colourful, you know, it's anice place to live, etc.
etcetera.
Are you trying to to c convinceyourself or are you just sharing
information and gen genuinelylooking for a uh another
perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:29):
That is correct.
That is very good.
And on that note, I'm going towrap this up because any second
now, our apartment is going totest their emergency warning
system.
And I don't think that um ourlisteners.
SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
So you're you're winding up, are you?
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
I am winding up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Going once?
Going twice, going three timesand solved.
And we're done.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
And we're done.
Thank you so much, listeners.
I hope that was helpful.
Um remember, whenever you'repurchasing anything, including a
partner, choose wisely and keepyour critical thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
(32:14):
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
(32:35):
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
(32:57):
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(33:18):
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me or Annie McCubbin.
You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the
podcast that helps smart womenwork out why we repeatedly make
the wrong decisions and how tomake better ones.
From relationships, careerchoices, finances, to photo
jackets and chaos movies.
Every moment of every day, we'remaking decisions.
Let's make them good ones.
(00:21):
I'm your host, and you're McCub,and I'm the woman of a certain
age.
I've made my own spirit ofreally bad decisions.
Not my death.
And I wish this podcast had beenaround to save me from myself.
This podcast will give youinsight into the working of your
own brain, which will blow yourmind.
(00:44):
I acknowledge the traditionalowners of the land on which I'm
recording and you are listeningon this day.
Always was, always will be,Aboriginal land.
Well, hello, smart women, andwelcome back.
Today I am broadcasting.
No, I'm not, I'm podcasting.
Broadcasting different topodcasting?
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
Yes, it is.
Yeah, broad broad broadcastingis like you cut you you cast
broadly, and then when you'repodcasting, you just you broad
you you you cast into thesomeone's pods.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
So I'm podcasting today from umDY, Sydney, New South Wales,
Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
Do you think people really want to know that?
SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Yes, they do want to know that.
It's very interesting for you toknow where I am that I'm in DY.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
You spend many seconds every every episode
talking about being in DY.
I know, but people talking aboutthe nasty weather.
SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
And today it's windy, but we're heading into
our uh beautiful summer.
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Come on, summer.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Um yeah.
Come on, summer.
Come on, you can do it, summer.
Um, hello to everybody.
We have listeners in Jamaica,uh, in Ukraine.
I'm sorry about that, and I wedo think about you often.
Um Japan and many, many in theUnited States and Canada, Canada
and New Zealand.
So hello, hello from Australia.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
And for those that Annie didn't mention, sorry,
it's because she has a badmemory.
It's not that that she thinksthat your nation is unimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
It's true.
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
So um I'll tell you what we're going to talk about.
And if anybody on this podcasthas ever gone and um spent their
time looking for a place to buy,then you are going to really
appreciate um the cognitivebiases that David and I have
come across.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
This is the special real estate episode.
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Real estate real estate episode.
So um David and I have beenassisting our son um in looking
for a new apartment uh to buy.
And what this has meant is thaton Saturdays we get in the car
and and we drive thousands ofkilometres uh in the heat and
(03:00):
the the terrible weather toassist him in this process.
It's not true.
We don't drive thousands ofkilometres, though Hundreds.
Well, it's it you know, it's agood hour from um the northern
beaches in Sydney um to the tothe more western suburbs of
Sydney, but that's what we'vebeen doing, and we have been
(03:21):
caught in terrible traffic alongthe way, Saturday traffic, but
such is the devotion of us asparents.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Oh yeah, we're so devoted.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
We're very devoted, aren't we?
SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
So devoted.
We kicked him out.
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Yeah, we kicked him out, and now he has to buy
something to live in.
So we've been going out andhelping him in looking at these
properties.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
That's right.
You know, choosing between thehouses of uh straw, the the
houses of sticks, and the housesof stone.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_02 (03:48):
Well, I've I'm the the earliest introduction.
Well, the earliest introductionthat any of us had had to real
estate, I think, was the storyof the three little pigs.
SPEAKER_00 (03:57):
You tell that while I go and put my hair back.
Go on.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
What?
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
Yeah, tell the tell the story.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Everybody knows the story of the three little pigs.
Look, I'm doing this undersufferance.
Yes, Annie's just left the roomto fix her hair.
I don't know why that'simportant.
This is an audio podcast.
But the first little pig builthis house out of straw because
he thought it would be easy, um,but it didn't stand up to the
(04:23):
wind.
Well, or the blowing of a wolf.
Um neither did the house ofsticks, which was the house of
the second pig.
Um that was also blown over.
I don't know why I'm telling youthis story.
The third house was made out ofbricks and the wolf couldn't
blow it over, and so that wasprobably a good investment and
um saved the pigs' lives.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
Yes, that's right.
Quiet piggy.
But but how was that?
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Quiet Piggy.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
How was that?
That was a that was a badmoment.
SPEAKER_02 (04:51):
That was a that that was a nice moment of of status
reinforcement where the wherethe president really wanted to
put that young journalist inher.
It's really delightful.
So one day we'll do an episodeon the the cognitive biases that
you find in in media um andinterviews with politicians.
But today we're talking aboutreal estate.
And probably there's there thereare a few um activities that
(05:13):
human beings engage in that aremore replete with cognitive
biases and heuristics and thepossibility that you're going to
make a bad decision than realestate.
And the other good thing aboutreal estate is because the
wheels go so slowly, you've gotplenty of time to actually
examine your thinking.
It's true.
You be it caught in traffic oror something don't examine our
(05:38):
thinking.
Okay.
Cognitive bias number one.
Urgency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Well, I just don't, I mean, I I get out there and I
s because I don't like it, Idon't like being, you know, I
want to come home again.
So what happens to me is I seesomething that's sort of vaguely
okay, I go, that'll do.
That'll do.
What?
Yeah, I do do a little bit.
I'm like, well, that seems fine.
There was two on last Saturdaywhere I go, yeah, we'll just get
(06:02):
that.
Because I I don't want to keeplooking.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
Oh, right, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
So um, so that's one bias is just um, you know, try
post-rationalizing.
So the feeling I have inside meis I'm sick of this.
We've been this is the seventhone I've looked at.
Can we just buy one?
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Which is very poor thinking on my part.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
And and look a little bit of a little bit of
context.
Um last year, but actually itwas about this time last year
that Annie and I entered the thethe property market for the
first time in like about 24years.
We had uh we had a a lovely.
I was just gonna say, you know,we had a we had a lovely, rather
unique um property um up inBeacon Hill on Sydney's northern
(06:46):
beaches.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
You can't use you can't use my speech rhythms
trying to sound interesting,then my speech rhythms are.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
And uh and and so in the in in that in that event we
were we were we were the vendor,we were the seller.
We were also buying at the sametime, and we've been through the
process with our son, as Anniewas saying.
Um and so um yeah, these thecognitive biases and heuristics
that arise are really um uh sortof top of mind at the moment.
And one of them is the haloeffect.
SPEAKER_00 (07:12):
Yeah, the halo effect's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
Because it worked in our favour.
It worked very much in ourfavour.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
As vendors.
SPEAKER_02 (07:18):
As vendors.
You explain what the halo effectis, and I'll explain how it
works for you.
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
So, you know, so the halo effect is when something is
good, like an element ofsomething, or like if you take a
human being, if you really likethe human being or find the
human being attractive, what canoften happen is they then have a
halo around their head, and thatyou may infer upon them
(07:42):
qualities that you don't thatthey actually don't have.
So I may think the the best oneI can think of is Gwynneth
Paltrow, who's a very, very goodactor.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Oh, she's a great actor.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
She's a fantastic actor.
So you might look at her and go,She's really pretty, um, she's a
really good actor, and then youlook at her products that she
sells through her um her woo-woofantasy land, which they call
goop.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
You know, you know why it's goop.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
Gwyneth Paltrow, G, P, first, last letters.
What it's uh and then you'vemade that up.
SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
No, well Goop is also stuff you put on your face.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Exactly, exactly.
So it was convenient that thethe stuff that you put on your
face have the first and lastletter.
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
Anyway, if I can get back to the you don't know that
you've made that up about the GPthing, haven't you?
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
No, I th I would I I haven't made it up.
It's it's obvious, it'sself-evident.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
It's not.
Anyway, um because she's veryattractive and um apparently
only eats apples and I don'tknow, kale or something.
SPEAKER_02 (08:47):
No, that was her son.
She called her son Apple.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Oh yeah.
Anyway, she like but barely eatsand just I don't know, is
constantly giving herself coffeeenemies.
I don't know what she does, butanyway, she's got this company
called Goop, which is a terriblepurveyor of pseudoscience,
woo-woo, uh, which as we know isdangerous because once you go
down that path, you're lesslikely to believe the science.
So she has a halo on her head.
Pretty actress develops apseudoscientific product line
(09:13):
which is sort of drowning inglitter and glamour, and people
buy it for that.
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
So it's what has that got to do with real estate?
SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
I'm explaining what the halo effect is.
Okay.
So so if you talk look aboutthat in a in a real estate
sitch, then a single appealingfeature like an ocean view or a
renovated bathroom or greatlight, then colours your
perception of the entireproperty, and you start ignoring
floors because that one feature,right, the halo of it, feels
(09:43):
like the proof of overallquality.
And so the impact of that is youcan, you know, overlook
structural features or noise orbody court problems or
something.
And I did it.
I'm telling you, I did this.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
You did it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:55):
I did it with the property that we that we looked
at above the shop.
Remember that one above theshop.
SPEAKER_01 (10:01):
The property above the shop.
Do you know what I got hookedon?
How big it was?
Three bedrooms?
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
I got hooked well, more than the three bedrooms.
I got tragically hooked on thefact that they'd put really nice
white plant plantation shuttersover the windows.
SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
Oh my god, yes.
This was the scongiest, youknow, X, you know, brothel or
something like that.
It was it was above a shop withdecaying awnings and um It was
really terrible.
I mean, the you know, the thethe strip of shops underneath
it, you know, convenience store,um uh fish and chips, there was
a bong shop there.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
It wasn't great.
Well the whole thing, but thething is I walked in, I went,
oh, and then the real estateagent said to me, Look, it's
really beautiful.
Look at the kitchen.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Plantation shutters.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Plantation shutters, and then Laughlin had sensibly
opened one of the plantationshutters and behind it the
windows were all broken.
SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
Yep.
Yeah, but but the but the factthat the broken windows were
concealed by a plantationshutter.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah, um and then and then he cleverly that guy
used the anchoring bias.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Ah, the anchoring bias.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
The anchoring bias is really, really interesting
because if they say, look, um,you know, this is worth um, I
don't know, five hundred andthirty thousand.
SPEAKER_01 (11:20):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Right.
And then you find that so you'reanchored to that number, right?
You get anchored to it.
SPEAKER_01 (11:27):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And then when they say, Oh, actually you can get it
for 510,000, you're like,awesome saving of 20 grand, even
though the 530 was an imaginarynumber.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
It was arbitrary in the first place.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, um, and of course, they doit all the do that all the time
because what they're doing,they're using the anchoring
bias, and the other thing thatthey do is the scarcity bias,
which is oh yeah.
Look, we we've had a lot ofinterest in this.
There's very, very fewproperties that are in this sort
of location with this sort ofaccess to public transport,
(12:05):
right, that have had this amountof quality renovation.
This is a very, very, very rareproperty.
Yes.
So if you don't act now, what'sgonna happen?
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
Yeah, you're gonna miss out.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
You're gonna miss out.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
And scarcity is a classic because it absolutely
flips the switch from strategicright, strategic um reasoning to
just being impulsive.
It must be dreadful for peoplewith ADHD like yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
Oh, it's shocking.
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
Is it shocking?
SPEAKER_02 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I mean I I um as I said,you know, g real estate, I can I
can see all of these these thesecognitive errors just working
away.
Yeah.
You know, they put their theirbusiness clothes on, they look
really legitimate, and then Ican I can hear my mind saying to
me, listen, you've got to we'vegot to put an offer on this
place now.
You know, it's it's well abovewhat we want to spend, but but
(12:53):
properties like this don't comeonto the market.
Um, you know, the the the vendoris obviously motivated to sell,
you know, we could we could geta real advantage if we just
acted quickly.
Yeah.
If we backed ourselves.
Do you know?
I wonder whether this has hadanything to do with the um
Commonwealth Bank's latestadvertisement.
Um so yeah, the CommonwealthBank is one of Australia's
(13:14):
largest banks, um, and they'vejust gone into the public arena
with this thing Doubt Never Did.
That's the slogan, doubt neverdid.
Don't doubt yourself, go for it.
Oh go for it, buy for buy thehouse, buy the car.
Doubt never did.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
And of course, that that absolutely plugs into one
of my all-time Don't doubtyourself.
Don't absolutely loathed uminferences, which is everyone
should just trust theirinstincts because your gut will
just will, you know, lead you inthe right direction.
SPEAKER_02 (13:45):
That is so irresponsible.
In my gut, if I'd gone with mygut, yes, you would have bought
that dreadful place above thebong shop.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
With the above the bong shop with the terrible
plantation shutters.
Um the other thing is we had totake the dogs with us on the
journey because we couldn'tleave them in the apartment.
SPEAKER_02 (14:02):
Oh, but I know where you're going with I I know where
you're going with this.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
And then so you know, I then have to text
neighbours and can you take themup for a Wii or whatever?
Da.
So we took the dogs, yeah.
We took the dogs and then thatreal estate agent said said
those dogs are my god, they arethe most beautiful dogs.
And then complimented the car.
Oh my god.
Look at your cute littleelectric, blue electric car, and
(14:27):
aren't your dogs adorable?
And I was like, I really want tobuy something off you.
Yes.
As soon as I as soon as I likesomeone, and I tell you the
other thing they do is they usemy name.
What's your name?
Yeah, Annie.
And as soon as they say, um,yeah, Annie, look, I love your
dogs, love your car.
Look, this is look, there'sobviously there's things that
(14:48):
need to be done to thisproperty, Annie.
But um I don't know.
I know and also you know whatelse?
He knows me.
You know what else he said tome?
What did he say?
He said, You must be so proud ofyour son for getting into the
market.
And me, me, I'm like, Jewishmother.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm really my son, my help,help, my son, the lawyer is
drowning.
(15:09):
Yeah, so um, yeah, so I'm I andhe said all help help my son,
the lawyer, is trying to buy ahouse.
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yeah, help help.
SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
And then, you know, I'm like, yeah, I am really
proud.
And he was like, Yeah, well, youknow, when I was 33, I was just
married and still living in homewith my parents.
Your son's doing amazing, andI'm like, Yeah, he is doing
amazing.
Also, you really like my car andmy dogs, and you think my son's
amazing.
I want to buy something off you,yeah, that's right.
And you use my name.
SPEAKER_02 (15:33):
That's right.
That sounds like halo effect tome.
That sounds like really solidhalo effect.
But also, also, I reckon thatkind of relationship, um, you
know, when the real estate agentknows your name, appreciates
your dog, admires your car.
You've come all this way fromthe northern beaches, from the
northern beaches, then you're indanger of falling prey to the uh
(15:57):
sunk cost fallacy.
And that is, I've spent all thistime, I've got to know this
person.
I don't want to have to gothrough the process of getting
to know anybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
I I I don't want to go through the process of having
to look at another property.
So um, so you you you you youdouble down on the the agent or
the property that um that you'veyou've you've become attached to
because it's sunk cost isabsolutely classic, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
It's the sunk cost, I love it, because it's like you
know, the other context whereyou're like you've been holding
on the phone to Telstra for whatfeels like nine years, right?
But you cannot hang up.
You cannot hang up becauseotherwise you've wasted Yeah,
you've wasted all that time.
All that time on the phone.
Whereas in fact, if you justhung up and then called back at
(16:44):
another time, that would betotally fine.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, that's right.
You know, uh um I'm gonna I'mgonna just do a little dangerous
thought experiment here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Um, you know, if if you think about our
relationship, Annie, and all theyears that we've been married.
SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
Yeah, you could leave me.
SPEAKER_02 (16:57):
Well, no, I got some cost fallacy.
SPEAKER_00 (17:00):
We've spent this long.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
I've spent this long.
SPEAKER_00 (17:01):
You may as well yeah, but so you may as well
stay the course.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
It's gotta get good sometime.
You know, the pendulum swings.
It's gotta come back.
SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
Yeah, at some point, yeah.
So that's right.
You've spent, you know, it'sbeen well that is actually what
happens to people to people indisastrous relationships.
It's exactly why people don'tdivorce.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yes, but but darling, I I wouldn't describe
our relationship as disastrous.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
Um There's redeeming qualities, features.
SPEAKER_02 (17:30):
Yeah, there are some redeeming qualities and
features, and um and you know, Ifigure I'll be able to sort it
out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Can you fix me?
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah, well you reckon you can fix me.
Like I can fix a property with alick of paint, you know, just
just put a lick of paint onthat, you know, put some
plantation shutters in, and umand then the place will be
magnificent to live in.
And that's and that's theoverconfidence bias.
Well, I think You know, I canmake this work, I can make this
property work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Yeah, but we've missed that we've missed the
big, you know, the big mother ofall biases.
SPEAKER_01 (18:02):
What's that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Which confirmation bias.
You know, once you've decided, Imean that's the thing, once you
decide it, you know, I've walkedin and it's got nice plantation
shutters and three bedrooms andand a nicely renovated bathroom,
and the guy's used my name andcomplimented my son and my car
and my dogs.
Yes.
Confirmation bias.
I'm like, yeah, I want it.
I know any you justunconsciously cherry pick any
(18:26):
bit of data that doesn't fit mycurrent desire.
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
What about the fact that it's a long way away from
public transport?
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
Really?
What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
He's not my it's not my problem.
He's living there, it's not me.
It doesn't matter, you see, inmy confirmation biased brain.
Once I've decided he should buythis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
But what about the fact that the you know the
bedrooms don't have any aspectout there?
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
It doesn't matter.
He can put pictures out there.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
It's pretty small, you know.
How are we gonna how's he gonnafit?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
But that's okay because he's he's you know, he's
a kid, he doesn't, you know,he's doesn't what does he need?
He hasn't got children.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
All of which sounds like um, you know, practical,
pragmatic, motherly advice.
It's not, it's confirmationbias.
SPEAKER_00 (19:03):
It's all confirmation bias, and um, of
course, you know, I make anemotional decision and then we
just post-rationalise it.
It's fraught.
It's absolutely fraud.
The process is fraught, andwe're sort of aware of this
stuff, but I just I forget.
As soon as I'm there, yeah.
My my any notion of me applyingmy own um critical thinking
skills just goes out the window,pretty much.
(19:25):
I then have to walk away, get inthe car, and start thinking.
Yeah, I really have to applymyself, David.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because there is that thing thathappens when you uh when you
leave the property and then youstart fantasizing about yourself
living in that uh in that unit,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Or he's he's he how nice it would be for Lockheed to
be in there.
SPEAKER_02 (19:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there he is, and he only hasto go downstairs and he can get
his teeth fixed.
And he can get his teeth fixedat the dentist, he can buy a
bong, he can um you know go geta bottle of uh w of wine, even
though he doesn't drink, and hecould start.
He can have he can applyhimself.
Enriching cultural experienceswith the um everyone was lovely.
(20:07):
With the other people wanderingaround in the street.
And um and and they actuallycall this the endowment bias,
that you start to imagineyourself or your son or
somebody, you know, living theperfect life in this place, and
uh again you do the work of thereal estate agent for them, you
know.
You you you you look at thecity.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Well, I think what happens is you you plug into
that endowment effect, so evenbefore you've bought it, you can
imagine living there, yeah,which then tips your brain into
loss aversion.
So suddenly I've imagined thator I've imagined Lockie living
there, right?
So losing it, he'd love it,right?
That's right.
Life in South Granville.
Life in South Granville abovethe bong shop.
(20:48):
Why would you want to why wouldyou want to give that up?
And then you get into lossaversion.
So the weird thing about lossaversion, it's a very
interesting cognitive bias, isthat what it does to your brain,
it starts to hate the idea ofloss more intensely than it
values equivalent gain.
So you do anything then toavoid, you know, to to to
(21:11):
because your aversion to loss isso great.
And remember, this is happeningunconsciously in the brain,
right?
Yeah, that's right.
So suddenly I'm saying to this,to my son, look, this is you
know, because I've decided heshould have it because of the
plantation shutters and etc.
etc.
And the guy used my name andliked the car like the dogs.
Yes.
So then what would happen isyou'd start saying, Look, you
(21:32):
can stretch your budget, and allof the red flags then get
rationalized and you take risks.
That's how you get into thisterrible state of taking risks
you shouldn't take.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
The optimism bias, where you say, you know, I'm
gonna get a whole lot more lotmore work this year, or interest
rates are going to come down andI'll be able to afford the
payment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
So optimism bias is my greatest, is my greatest
flaw.
I mean, I've got a lot of flaws.
I do no come on, come on.
No, really, yeah, I know it's asurprise to you after 30
something years.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
No, no, I don't know.
I've got to tell you though,optimism bias.
Yes, you know, the way there'sjust all this, man, let's get
some optimism and positivityhappening.
I'm telling you, I have made somany mistakes because I'm
fundamentally I'm highlyoptimistic.
It's in my personality.
SPEAKER_02 (22:15):
Okay, so are you optimistic about the world?
Are you uh optimistic about theway that you're going to be able
to rise to the occasion?
SPEAKER_00 (22:22):
Yeah, just yeah, just yeah, I just assume things
will are going to work out.
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
I sometimes get the feeling that you're not terribly
optimistic about me though.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
No, yes, I am.
Are you?
100%.
I always think everything'sgoing to be fine.
All right, okay.
Oh good.
I have a lot of tr uh wildlyperhaps misplaced levels of
trust in your capacities.
SPEAKER_02 (22:43):
Yeah, well, time will tell, won't it?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
So, you know, if you think about um optimism bias in
relation to um, you know,perhaps making a purchase, you
know, oh, because I know whatthere was.
There was this notion that therewas going to be the special
levies.
The special levies.
And and it was like they werelike, it's not going to matter.
There is special levies andthere's capital works involved
(23:08):
in this, but it's probably onlyc gonna cost you 30 grand over
10 years.
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
Yeah, just a little bit of waterproofing for the for
the for the you know thebuilding.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
Yeah, so then you go, oh, okay, 30,000 over 10
years sounds fine.
And so then you expect thefuture to bend to your hopes,
right?
So you're hoping that they'reright, because I said to the
guy, well, that won't be lockeddown, because I do manage when
I'm actually in there with anestate agent to actually ask
questions.
I said, Well, we don't actuallyknow that, do we?
(23:36):
We don't know that that it'sgoing to be locked at 30,
because exactly what we know hashappened to people, it started
off at 13 and it's ended up at150,000 extra.
SPEAKER_02 (23:44):
How old are your dogs?
Aren't they lovely?
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Yeah, that's fine.
30 sounds great.
Okay.
Um, so then of course, as weknow, um, and you've already
mentioned this, that real estateagents turn up, they've always
got the same um narrow lapeledsuits on, haven't they?
Yes, stovepipe, sort of thestovepipe trousers, very, very
(24:07):
shiny, expensive shoes.
SPEAKER_02 (24:09):
Yeah, do you I mean do you do you find your do you
notice the the real estateagents' shoes?
Always.
I always do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
I always do.
What is it?
What is it about that?
SPEAKER_02 (24:17):
They're very shiny.
They're they're sh so that'slike a rule.
Is that a heuristic?
If if the shoes are good, it's asuccessful real estate agent.
If the shoes are shabby, maybethey're not.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yeah, 100%.
So look, you've got agents,builders, doctors, you know,
bankers, whatever.
Anyone who looks confident feelsmore credible than they actually
are.
It's the authority buyers.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it.
The authority buyers.
Would you would you would youwould you rather deal with a
shabby real estate agent, youknow, who maybe isn't so slick,
is not going to use so manyclever, you know, might be a bit
down on his luck, you know,might work harder for you.
Or would you prefer to deal witha real estate agent with very
(25:03):
shiny shoes, a very dry cleansuit, you know, clean hair, you
know, is on top of it, smoothtalking, etcetera, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
No, that's a pointless question.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
Well, because you've inferred that just because
somebody has turned up and is abit sort of shabbier and has
taken less time with theirtoilet.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
Like the like the Colombo of uh real estate
agents.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
Then that infers credibility.
It makes no difference.
How would I know what they'relike?
Just what I'm going to suddenlygo, oh, you're shabby, you're
going to tell me the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
Oh, hang on a uh uh uh are you are you speaking from
the enlightened mind at themoment?
I thought we were looking atheuristics.
Oh, like oh if you weren't ifyou weren't applying critical
thinking, yeah, do you thinkyou'd be able to run rings
around a shabby one?
Um and yet the uh the veryprofessional looking one will
probably do a job on you.
What do you reckon?
What would your expectation be?
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Yeah, I I would think that I'd be more inclined
if with the the the snick one.
Oh really?
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
You'd rather have the schmick one?
SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
I don't understand the question.
I don't know.
What mind am I being applyingcritical thinking?
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
No, no, not at the moment.
This is this is your unguardedself.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
Unguarded self.
I don't know, I can't tell.
SPEAKER_02 (26:12):
All right.
Then it probably wasn't.
I just look at Lochlan.
Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
I just look at Lochlan, who's our boy who has a
very interesting relationship toclothing.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
Oh, he doesn't value the externals at all.
SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
And yet he's he's um he he works in a very specific
area of the law, um, and he'svery, very good at it, very
caring, very nice, very bright,very smart.
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Yeah, he's got that lovely combination of being
super smart, but he's also superconscientious.
Yeah, he is.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
He's compassionate and yet he he looks like he
looks like his clients.
So um he does.
Well, that's why they like him.
It's just interesting, right?
Yeah.
So I mean the thing is sorry?
SPEAKER_02 (26:50):
In real estate?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
I don't know.
It was a really confusingquestion you asked me before.
It what would I rather?
SPEAKER_02 (26:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Do I would I think I could run route rings about
someone in my unconscious selfthat was shabbier?
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, would you would you lookat them and go, oh, this real
estate agent's a bit down on hisluck.
Probably.
I could probably push him hard.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Probably.
SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
Okay, but it's a bias, right?
It is a bias.
Because some the way someonepresents is an absolute
irrelevancy to how much you canactually manipulate them to your
yeah.
So um look, we've I think we'vediscussed um we've discussed the
scarcity bias and the urgency.
Urgency bias is massive.
You've got to do this now,you've got to get into the
(27:32):
market, you've got to buy thistoday.
SPEAKER_02 (27:34):
Yeah, actually, you know, you want you want to put
an offer in, you want to youwant to take the property out of
the market before it goes toauction.
SPEAKER_00 (27:40):
You've got to do that because otherwise you're
never gonna get a property likethis.
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
Yeah, you're gonna do that.
So look, um So how do you tellthe difference between the two?
How do you how do you how howhow do we how do we keep our
thinking caps on um when we'rein the real estate uh game?
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Well, uh what you have to do is watch for any
emotionality that is creepinginto your brain.
So as soon as, you know, as soonas I get in the car, I actually
do do this and I go, Oh, thatwould be really good.
I then have to actually um dosome serious analysis of my
(28:20):
thinking.
You have to analyze yourthinking, and I think the way to
start is the first time you geta strong feeling about
something.
You know, I really love this,okay.
Take yourself away, go and sitin the park, go and sit in the
car, do something.
Why do you like it?
Same with I hate this property.
Couple of times, I just hatedthe property, yet if I'd applied
(28:42):
more critical thinking to it,maybe it was more redeemable
because the location was better,even if in the interior wasn't
great.
SPEAKER_02 (28:50):
Okay, so so you're saying as soon as you recognize
whether you are moving towardsthe property or away from the
property, if I was just to putit really, really simply, you
know, you move you're movingtowards it.
Um that you slow it down and yougo, okay, what am I moving
towards?
Correct.
(29:10):
Am I moving towards access topublic transport?
Am I moving towards space?
Am I looking moving towardscommunity?
Am I look moving towards andthen ask, is this relevant?
You know, is it is it realistic?
Am I evaluating this correctly?
SPEAKER_00 (29:28):
Well, to my brother's point, um What would
your brother know that?
My brother, who's been in realestate for about 900 years, um,
he said yesterday, you can'tchange the location and you
can't change the size, right?
Yeah, and that that's that's thereality.
You can't change the quality ofthe building.
Anything on the inside that'scosmetic, you can change it.
(29:50):
Yeah, but if you're in a craplocation, you're going to be in
a crap location.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
So, I mean, I think um, you know, don't get caught
up in the you know, the new smitkit.
And the Renault bathroom.
Um, you know, if you pull theblind up and you're looking out
at a brick wall when a viewmatters to you.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Okay, so it's an extra hundred thousand dollars
more, we could always tightenour belts and maybe I'll get
that job, then you go, uh oh, Inoticed that maybe it's the
optimism.
Optimism bias.
You know, or I'mpost-rationalizing, or I'm
using, you know, confirmationbias.
Confirmation bias is just thebiggest one.
SPEAKER_00 (30:30):
It's the biggest one.
You just unconsciously cherrypick the environment to arrive
at the conclusion that yourbrain wants you to arrive at.
It's an absolute killer.
SPEAKER_02 (30:41):
I've got I've I've I've got what I think is is is
is probably the smartest thingthat you can do in this
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
What is that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:48):
You keep telling us that the problem with
unconscious bias is that they'reunconscious, that you don't
notice that they're happy.
So this is probably a good timeto pick up the phone and call
Uncle Paul or call your mum orcall your brother or something
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Yeah, call another person.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
And notice when you talk to them about the property,
are you trying to convince them?
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
Yeah.
You know?
Or do you just genuinely wantfeedback?
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
You know, it it's you know, it's it's it's it's
very colourful, you know, it's anice place to live, etc.
etcetera.
Are you trying to to c convinceyourself or are you just sharing
information and gen genuinelylooking for a uh another
perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:29):
That is correct.
That is very good.
And on that note, I'm going towrap this up because any second
now, our apartment is going totest their emergency warning
system.
And I don't think that um ourlisteners.
SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
So you're you're winding up, are you?
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
I am winding up.
SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
Going once?
Going twice, going three timesand solved.
And we're done.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
And we're done.
Thank you so much, listeners.
I hope that was helpful.
Um remember, whenever you'repurchasing anything, including a
partner, choose wisely and keepyour critical thinking hats on.
See you later.
Bye.
Thanks for tuning in to WhySmart Women with me, Annie
McCubbin.
(32:14):
I hope today's episode hasignited your curiosity and left
you feeling inspired by myanti-motivational style.
Join me next time as we continueto unravel the fascinating
layers of our brains and developways to sort out the fact from
the fiction and the over 6,000thoughts we have in the course
of every day.
(32:35):
Remember, intelligence isn'tenough.
You can be as smart as paint,but it's not just about what you
know, it's about how you think.
And in all this talk of whetheror not you can trust your gut.
If you ever feel unsafe, whetherit's in the street, at work, car
park, in a bar, or in your ownhome, please, please respect
(32:57):
that gut feeling.
Staying safe needs to be ourprimary objective.
We can build better lives, butwe have to stay safe to do that.
And don't forget to subscribe,rate, and review the podcast and
share it with your fellow smartwomen and allies.
Together we're hopefullyreshaping the narrative around
women and making betterdecisions.
(33:18):
So until next time, stay sharp,stay savvy, and keep your
critical thinking hat shiny.
This is Annie McCubbin signingoff from Why Smart Women.
See you later.
This episode was produced byHarrison Hess.
It was executive produced andwritten by me or Annie McCubbin.
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