Race, power and the Sam Kerr case with Eve Howell

Send us a text

In this episode we’re talking about the Sam Kerr racial harassment case with Eve Howell, the Chair of Ember Connect.

Kerr was found not guilty of racially aggravated harassment in February, following an incident in January 2023. 

After a night out with her partner Kristie Mewis, Kerr vomited out of the window of their taxi home. When the taxi driver locked the door, changed direction and started driving erratically, Kerr and Mewis called the police and kicked out a window.

The driver eventually ended up at Twickenham policed station, where Kerr climbed out the broken window only to face derision and disbelief from the police when she explained what had happened.

Check out the links below to find out more, and don't miss the bodycam footage, which clearly shows the context of Kerr's "stupid and white" comment to a police officer.

Links

• Sam Kerr was arrested on night out in London. Heres's what allegedly happened
• Full arrest video released as Sam Kerr denies using whiteness as insult
• Sam Kerr was found not guilty, now the court of public opinion will have its say
• As any woman in the back of a locked taxi knows, Sam Kerr should never have been brought to court 
• Victoria passes a "Sam Kerr clause"
• Ember Connect

About Wildfire
Wildfire is about sparking meaningful conversations that matter to Ember Connect’s members and allies. 

This podcast creates a space to amplify voices, share stories, and explore topics that drive change, connection, and personal and professional growth. 

By bringing these conversations to life, we aim to inspire action, deepen understanding, and strengthen the collective impact of the Ember Connect network.

A huge thanks to our guests for sharing their knowledge, insights, time and passion with us.

To find out more about Ember Connect, visit emberconnect.com.au or email [e-mail].

Ember Connect Live is a free membership community for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women. It’s a living and breathing meeting place where we can gather, share stories and experiences, learn, and grow.

Ember Connect Live also provides another sp

Ember Connect Live is a free membership community for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women. It’s a living and breathing meeting place where we can gather, share stories and experiences, learn, and grow.

Ember Connect Live also provides another space where non-Indigenous women (our Allies), can learn, grow and be part of meaningful conversations.

Our platform is unique because we provide separate spaces for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women and non-Indigenous women to connect and communicate but importantly, we provide a THIRD space where we can all learn and grow together.

Join Ember Connect now, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and
out here in Perth in the wildwild west.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I am possibly the whitest
woman in Australia, also livingon Noongar country.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Australia, also living on Noongar country.
In this episode of Wildfire,tess and I have a yarn with our
very own Eve Howe, the chair ofEmber Connect.
We start the conversation aboutSam Kerr and how we felt about
her recent charge in the UK ofracially aggravated harassment.
Eve then shares a personalstory about how her Londoner mum
met her Sudanese dad and sharessome of her very own
experiences and thoughts onprejudice and racism.
We dive straight into the SamKerr conversation with Eve

(01:09):
giving an overview of some ofthe different elements at play,
including power and celebrity.
So grab yourself a cuppa andenjoy.
Don't forget there are links tothe media coverage of Sam
Kerr's case and the bodycamfootage in the show notes.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
You know there was complexity of power celebrity.
This happened two years ago andinitially it was thrown out.
So 11 months later, when SamKerr's name got known and she
started making really big bucks,that the policeman said how
upset he'd been and how it hadhurt him and so on, and then
they raised the case.

(01:45):
I didn't know that.
So this issue of celebritysuddenly he realised that she
was somebody, so there was thatpart of it, and then the
straight discrimination and then, of course, the power bit comes
in, the fact that obviously thecourts are largely run by white
people and the police aremainly white.
So it was just.
I just thought the whole casewas really interesting, that all

(02:07):
these other elements came inand uh, and there were.
There were a lot of other issuesabout that case that were quite
, I found, extraordinary.
One was that, um, you know thatthey talked about a lot of the
reason why she lashed out likethat was frustration because she
wasn't taken seriously.
They, they were inebriated.

(02:27):
She and her partner wereinebriated.
I mean, I don't think there wasany question about that.
They had a big night out andthey were in the taxi and Sam
Kerr had been sick and it washer partner who kicked the
window out after the taxi driverlocked the door.
There's a lot of discussionabout how you feel as a woman in
a taxi when the doors getlocked.
They called the door.
There's a lot of discussionabout how you feel as a woman in
a taxi when the doors getlocked.

(02:47):
They called the police and whenthey got to the police station
they said that they had calledthe police as well as the taxi
driver called the police.
That that was kind of not takennotice of.
When Sam Kerr and her partnertold the policeman that they'd
called the police, they justsort of laughed at them and said
no, you didn't.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
And that was the context in which she said well,
you're stupid and white.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
That was the context.
Yeah, because he had said.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
she said well, we called them and this is what
happened.
And he said no, that's not whathappened, that couldn't be what
happened.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
That couldn't be what happened, and then it was
proven.
That is what happened, yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
And so she was saying in the context of you just
don't, you don't understand,yeah, and he called her little
Missy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Missy Moo, missy Moo.
That made my skin crawl, thatmade my eye twitch.
It suddenly just stopped.
Now that we're having this,conversation.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
It's quite extraordinary and, yeah, when
you actually hear the sort ofwhole thing.
One of racism's central markersis power.
There's discrimination andthere's power and prejudice plus
institutional power is theaccepted basic definition of
racism.
So you're prejudiced but you'vealso got the ability to do

(03:59):
something about your prejudice.
I guess and it's quiteinteresting that there was
something else and I can'tremember exactly where I saw it
was saying some of that cameinto the people's discussion
about the voice, which was likeyou know, why should Aboriginal
people have a say, a separatesay, when we don't have a say?
You know?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
It gets.
Really, it really fatigues youseeing those things, really, um
it, it really fatigues youseeing those things and um.
So, yeah, when I did, I didactually make a um, a decision
to switch off from this case,because I I just assumed that it
wouldn't end well for sam kerr,but surprisingly I, when you
said to me the other day, andagain, like I said, I spent, you

(04:42):
know, quite a number of hourstrying to understand even just
my own thinking and why Ithought it just would be done
and it just was like I think I'ma lot more cynical about the
world now, particularlypost-referendum.
Sure, not surprising.
Yeah, I'm still kind of angryabout a lot of things, but
always trying to figure out howto check myself.

(05:02):
Yeah, because I don't want tobecome part of the problem that
keeps the world divided andseparate.
So, but I think, you know, ifwe look at that, and it's such a
public case yes, everybody'sgot a view, yeah, and very
polarising views in a lot ofways, but it's a really good
conversation to have.

(05:23):
I think the outcome as well, interms of, you know, looking at
how the media, what you had justread out was talking about
power and talking aboutdiscrimination and that it being
two separate things.
So the conversation that'shappening around this, it's
important.
I feel like I have a bit morehope now.
Yes, yeah, that there arepeople out there that are brave

(05:44):
enough to have this conversation.
Yes, and again, high profilecase and people are going well,
what are they talking about withthis?
And so it's really thoughtprovoking.
And if people are willing tolisten to others and to really
dig deep into what some of thoseactions are and then how they
might play a role, yeah, I thinkit's important for people to
think about it.
I think I had seen a quote fromsomebody at Monash University to

(06:08):
say that if it was in Australia, the case would likely have not
made it to the courts, and thatthere have been quite a number
of cases that have popped up inthe UK to do with this type of
thing.
Yes, I thought that was quiteinteresting, but as a black
woman, I kind of went when Iheard what she said, like oh,
you're just stupid and white,like I kind of gasped at that

(06:32):
because it's like you can't saythat because you're going to get
nailed for it.
Yeah, and I just I kind of.
And then I watched the video.
It kind of changed things.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
The circumstances were quite complicated.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, particularly the cab ride.
I mean, I would probably like Iwould be thinking I'm going to
die.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's what they thought.
Where are we going?
They thought they were beingkidnapped.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
She said she had that fear of remembering sort of the
whole thing of the Claremontkiller and things like that.
Taxi drivers, yeah, yeah.
And the other interesting thingwas that initially because
initially they weren't going tobring a case other than damages
to make them pay for the taxi,the damages of the taxi, and it

(07:19):
was actually her partner whosmashed the window, but it was
her who was- the guilty one.
That's insane.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Which is interesting yeah, it's a white partner so
where's this taxi driver, Idon't know, driving around
somewhere with duct tape ontheir window?

Speaker 4 (07:36):
I'm sure he still didn't know.
Well, they paid for all therepairs they did in the end.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, my goodness.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
So that was all dropped, and then the police
brought up the yeah, yeah, theybrought up the case another year
, almost a year later again,because this guy had complained
now that he was upset and hislife had been ruined by that.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Life had been ruined Well, not quite, I'm sure that's
what he.
His life had been ruined, Iheard, or whatever Life had been
ruined.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
Well, not quite you know what I mean.
Well, wow, I'm sure that's whathe said.
Yeah, so they said they'd openthe case, which is pretty
ridiculous really.
But anyway, very interestingcase, I think.
As I say, it's brought out alot of conversation, which is
good, I think.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Seeing what's happening in the US at the
moment.
If you're only looking at oneparticular thing and you're
getting a certain narrative oryou're you're identifying with a
particular party or group ofpeople, you could just adopt
that point of dominant point ofview in that space and not think
too much about what really theactual situation is I think I've
said this to you before,narelle.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
You know, when I came here um 40 odd years ago, I was
shocked by the fact that I gottreated much better than
Aboriginal people.
There is prejudice, almost thisprejudice and this prejudice.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Nuances.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
There's all these nuances of prejudice you know,
and what to me is just, it'sprobably the most shocking and
it's, you know, like Indigenouspeople in Australia or
Indigenous people anywherereally, who have been dominated
by somebody else in their ownland, is a degree far worse than

(09:05):
the person, than the migrantwho goes to a new country.
It's a huge difference and that, when you start thinking about
it, is all about power, whichwas the power of colonisation.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
I know that you've spoken about that a couple of
times, that you feel like you'vebeen treated far better than
Indigenous peoples here, but youalso have an interesting story
about your parents as well.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
My mother was a Londoner from sort of I think
what you'd call sort of middleworking class.
Her father was a teacher, butthen he was a tobacco.
He owned a tobacconist shop,basically sold cigarettes, um,
and so quite a humble family.
And uh, my mother, born wayback 1902, and uh, in her 30s

(09:51):
she, um, she was still.
She was the oldest child andhad been the one who had to look
after all the others and shestarted just helping out with
African students who were comingto the UK, and that's how she
met my father, who came fromSudan.
South Sudanese is almost asblack as the table Not quite,

(10:15):
you know, this is England in the30s, anyway.
So she met him and they fell inlove and and she decided she
was, you know, she was going tomarry him, so, but, interesting
enough, her family were coolabout it, no problem at all,
which was very unusual in thosedays.
So they, they fell in love.

(10:35):
My father was, um, trying tofinish his degree and he had
been.
You know, this is a good sideof life.
He was the son of ex-slaves whohad been taken from the South
Sudan up to the northern on theboundary with Egypt by the Arabs
, who used to take slaves andthen when slavery was stopped by

(10:59):
the British colonial people,those slaves largely went into
the Egyptian army.
So my father's father was fromthe south but was up in the
north working for the Egyptianarmy guarding the Suez Canal.
My father had very littleeducation.
He was like you know.
He went to elementary school.
But then he got a job as aservant to a British doctor who

(11:25):
was a very good man andrecognised that the sky was
quite bright and so encouragedhim, taught him English, started
getting him to do things tohelp him you know, run some of
the pharmacy stuff and soencouraged him, taught him
English, started getting him todo things to help him you know,
run some of the pharmacy stuffand so on.
Realised that he could do it.
And then my father said well,you know, I could be a doctor
too.
So he decided he was going tobe a doctor.

(11:47):
But there was no medical schoolanywhere in sight and he didn't
have any qualifications likesecondary school or anything.
So he had to sort of graduallydo that.
He went to Kuwait and got somesort of secondary education.
Then he went to Bombay,university of Bombay and did his
early first part of his medicaldegree Came back was still

(12:09):
being helped by this Englishdoctor.
He ended up going to London tosee what he could do in Europe
to finish his degree, and Ithink he didn't qualify to get
into London.
So he went to university inBrussels, but he had to learn
French.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
So he already spoke Arabic and English, and now he
had to learn French.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Anyway, he learned French, as you do, and he got
his degree in Brussels withdistinction.
I've actually got hiscertificates, beautiful, all in
French.
Got his degree and, uh they, hewent back to Cairo in Egypt to
work at the hospital there as adoctor.
And my mother then sort of said, well, what I'll do is I'm

(13:00):
going to become a nurse.
So she went to AmericanUniversity in Beirut in Lebanon
to do a nursing degree and shechose that because she could go
from Beirut to Cairo every sixmonths or so to see her fiancé.
Anyway, they did that for aboutthree years.
Then eventually she finishedher nursing degree.
They got married in Cairo andhad the first two children in

(13:25):
Egypt.
And then, during the war,because Egypt was being bombed
and of course the whole Talibanand the Aussies were there and
the Germans were coming and uhanyway.
So then they went down back tothe sedan.
Because he wanted to.
His whole goal was to be adoctor for his own people.
So they went back down to thesedan, initially lived in quite

(13:47):
primitive part out of the south,the capital.
I got a great photo of my mythis was before I was born but
my mother sitting with my sisterand my brother, who was just a
little toddler on a lap withthis sort of straw hut behind
them, which was their home.
My mother said she had malariatwice, she miscarried twice,

(14:08):
living in these circumstances,but then eventually they moved
to Khartoum and he set up apractice and was a GP by the
time I was born.
He was pretty well established.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Did your mother still work as a nurse, or was she
looking after you?
Once she stopped nursing, shegot three children.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
But then sadly my father died quite young.
So then she was going to leftwith three children in Khartoum,
so she decided she might gohome to family.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
That's infrequent fly miles.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
But what was interesting was and I guess
perhaps that's another reasonwhy I had some empathy with
Aboriginal people Sudan was acolony until 1956, so that was
when I was 11, and they had onlyBritish kids could swim in the
British swimming pool.
All this sort of crap went on.

(15:02):
You know how did your motherfind it moving from?
Yeah and my mother?
You know, my mother was a whitewoman.
She wasn't allowed in theBritish club because she'd
married a black man.
She was contaminated, you know.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
I guess she was unfortunately used to that a
little bit, so she knew what toexpect.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Well, she used to say you know, when she walked out
with my father in London, everyhead turned sort of yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I just love listening to the stories you
have.
I think it's nice to kind ofengage with what's the
experience of people throughouthistory, so that we try not to
make the same mistakes as apeople's moving forward.
Yeah, but thanks for coming inand talking to us about that.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
Yes, yeah, but I, just as I say, I thought that
Sam Kerr story was reallyinteresting.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
In the sense that, like, let's go back again.
Going back, I'm not going totalk about the taxi driver, but
the taxi experience.
Yes, you have an experiencelike that and you call the
police with the hope and theexpectation that somebody will
manage that situation andinvestigate it so that it
doesn't happen again the nexttime.
If there's anything thathappens, like that trust in

(16:09):
terms of calling somebody to saywe've been wronged, they're not
likely to do it Like it's just.
I was ignored last time In atraumatic event that was just
completely dismissed, yeah, andthen the patronising comments of
you know, missy Moo, and thingslike that, it's just.
I would feel like I wouldn'thave any trust to even call in

(16:30):
the first place after that.
Yeah, interesting, so anyonegot any information about the
taxi driver?
No, give us a call, shoot us anemail at mbconnect and let us
know, so that I can sleep atnight and I don't have to go
searching for people.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connect'smembers and allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective

(17:17):
impact of the Ember Connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion withus, and to find out more about
Ember Connect, visitemberconnectcomau.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I'm still going to go .
Look for the taxi driver.
They're driving around, slumpedin their seat.
Just all you can see is the topof someone's head and a hand on
the steering wheel.
They're just trying to keep alow profile.