June 30, 2025 • 36 mins
Michelle Evans, Director of the Dilin Duwa Centre for Indigenous Business Leadership, shares her remarkable journey from theatre director to business academic and reveals groundbreaking data on Australia's Indigenous business ecosystem.
• Indigenous businesses generate $16.1 billion in revenue annually, comparable to Australia's timber industry
• 13,693 active Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses employ 116,795 people and pay $4.2 billion in wages
• The Indigenous business ecosystem is deeply interconnected, with businesses supporting and supplying each other
• Key challenges include access to business education, capital investment, and developing networks with non-Indigenous financial institutions
• Evans created the Murra Indigenous Business Masterclass program, now in its 16th generation
• Indigenous businesses deliver benefits beyond economics: employment opportunities, self-determination, intergenerational wealth, and cultural knowledge sharing
• Evans emphasizes the importance of mentorship and collaborative data building to showcase Indigenous economic contributions
• The Indigenous business sector aims to shift away from disadvantage discourse toward recognizing its sophisticated leadership and unique value
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hiya, I'm Narelle Henry, a Noongar woman living
out here in Perth in the wildwild west.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm Tessa Hayes.
I'm a Wadjala born on ParamountCountry and now living and
working on Wadjak Noongar Butja.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hi, this is Michelle Evans.
I'm the Director of the DylanDewar Centre for Indigenous
Business Leadership at theUniversity of Melbourne and
Melbourne Business School.
I'm a Koori woman from theHunter Valley in New South Wales
and live and work here onWiradjuri country in Albury, New
South Wales in Albury, newSouth Wales.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
So, if we just kick off, can you tell us a little
bit about your life's journey todate and what brought you into
the work that you're doing atthe moment?
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I guess what has really brought me to where I am
today leading a businessleadership centre is not quite
straightforward.
I started in theatre and alwayswanted to be a theatre director
.
I guess I've kept with thedirector bit, but it's certainly
(01:38):
a long way from the arts toacademia and leading quite an
intense research centre at theUniversity of Melbourne.
I guess being in the arts maybenow you're getting.
How was I not so employable?
(01:59):
But I wasn't.
In the mid-90s Everyone wantedto see the word management in
your CV and certainly I didn'thave that per se, even though I
managed very complex projects.
I didn't have that from myeducation.
So I went into an area of artsmanagement and I studied that at
(02:22):
the Victorian College of theArts in Melbourne and it just
really opened up my life tobeing back into areas and
working with Indigenouscommunities across Victoria.
Working in community radio beinga part of founding Three Cool
and Deadly, which is Melbourne'sIndigenous radio station,
(02:44):
continues on today and becomingthe founder of the Willens
Centre for Indigenous Arts andCultural Development at the
Victorian College of the Arts tosupport, you know, Indigenous
elite artists who are trying tocreate new content and really
speak to not only culturalknowledges but building up these
(03:05):
incredible vehicles throughartistic creations to share
culture and also to criticallyengage with ideas around
identity and the future.
So I got really excited aboutthat and was really happy to
lead the Welland Centre for overseven years.
(03:28):
But during that time one of theareas that I got really excited
about was as an arts manager.
By then labelling myself inthat way or identifying in that
way, I noticed that a lot ofAboriginal arts centres
necessarily have Aboriginal artsmanagers and a lot of
(03:52):
Indigenous artists were beingmanaged by non-Indigenous arts
managers and it came a realfactor for me.
So I built a new course at theUniversity of Melbourne for
Indigenous Arts Management andit was during this time really
where in teaching that courseand working with incredible
(04:14):
Indigenous artists and artsmanagers across the country,
that the idea around Indigenousleadership really started to
emerge as a space for me to bevery interested in and I thought
I might do my PhD then I haddone my Master's by research,
returning to some of thoseearlier cultural projects that
(04:37):
I'd done back in Newcastle andthe Hunter Valley, asking
questions about you know, isthere really long-term outcomes
from these sort of short,exciting cultural projects that
you do with community and tryingto understand a sort of theory
of change, if you will.
(04:58):
And I thought to do a PhD.
I'd really want to understandIndigenous leadership more and
it was at that point that I hada very big sliding doors moment
where I had to find out where tostudy leadership, and the only
place you could study it at thattime, which was the
mid-naughties, was in a businessschool, and I had been in the
(05:21):
arts all of my career up untilthen and it was a real change
for me.
I eventually, after a couple ofknockbacks and trying, again,
got into the PhD program andstudied around Indigenous arts
leadership and I think you know,when I entered the Melbourne
(05:41):
Business School where I did myPhD, there were no other
Aboriginal people studying atthat time.
There have been Aboriginalpeople go through MBAs there,
but only a few and far betweenover the history of the school.
So I really wanted to, you know, have more people there to talk
(06:02):
to really and to work with.
Um, it was uh, yeah, I was soused to being in community and
working with students and youngpeople and doing programs and
being out on regional tours etc.
That it was a real shock to thesystem at how exclusive the
(06:26):
business school was, andcertainly to our communities.
So I set about establishing anIndigenous Business Masterclass
program in 2011.
I worked on a sort of regionalconsultation tour in partnership
with Kinaway, the AboriginalChamber of Commerce in Victoria,
(06:49):
which was also setting up atthe same time, and just really
trying to understand whatAboriginal business people
wanted in a business program,what sort of business acumen
training would be really handy.
And I guess that program, whichcontinues on today and we just
recently had the first module ofour 16th generation of the
(07:11):
Murrah program go through just acouple of weeks ago in NAM has
just been such an incrediblygenerative collaboration with
Indigenous entrepreneurs acrossAustralia, talking about what
type of research we need, whattype of other programs, how do
(07:33):
we democratise businesseducation out into our regional
and remote communities all sortsof things that Indigenous
entrepreneurs have been callingfor, and that's really led to
not only the development of nowthe Dillendua Centre for
Indigenous Business Leadership,but has really directed me to
(07:56):
have that rich collaboration andto really be have those
feedback loops, I guess, withall of the different alumni that
I've worked with over the lastcentury of my career at the
University of Melbourne andMelbourne Business School and
Victorian College of the Arts.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I am blown away by how much you've done.
And then I almost fell off mychair when you had said that you
were an arts first, because Ididn't know that and you wanted
to be a director.
You've got some extraordinaryachievements there.
I think I need to take a secondto process that test.
Just ask the next question.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I actually was just going to read first.
Just read an excerpt that Ipulled from one of your research
papers, which says theIndigenous ecosystem makes an
important contribution to theAustralian economy, With 13,693
active and alive businesses andcorporations in 2022, generating
$16.1 billion in revenue,employing 116,795 people and
(08:56):
paying $4.2 billion in wages.
In terms of generated revenue,the ecosystem is around the same
size as the Australian timberindustry.
Now, I found that myself reallyinteresting, because I had no
idea of the you know the size of, as you say, the Indigenous
ecosystem.
So what are, I guess, what aresome of the challenges and
opportunities that you've foundin your research facing
(09:19):
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander leaders and
entrepreneurs for Australia?
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Islander leaders and entrepreneurs.
Yeah, it is exciting to nowhave these descriptive
statistics, these facts andfigures, I guess, to help us
describe the AustralianIndigenous business ecosystem.
And we really want to focus oncalling it an ecosystem because
there are so many differentplayers and actors in this space
(09:46):
, meaning, you know, from soletraders through to really
sophisticated investors andcorporations, aboriginal and
Indigenous corporations, andcommunity-controlled
organisations and all sorts ofother businesses, commercial and
(10:07):
not-for-profit, in between.
So it's, and why it's importantfor us to understand it as an
ecosystem, is that what we find,certainly from our rich, slower
research, our qualitativeresearch and you would find this
too from people talking to youis how integrated the ecosystem
(10:30):
is, how many different umpathways between and and
circularity of um financial andand and programmatic commitments
happen between these businessesand and these different
organizations.
They they're not just siloedoff, they're actually oftentimes
working together, working andsupplying to each other, and I
(10:54):
think that's a really importantpart for us to understand the
leadership and the relationalleadership of our Indigenous
businesses and our Indigenousbusiness leaders.
I think you know the challengesfacing Indigenous entrepreneurs
are really well known and thatincludes just, you know, access.
(11:15):
I think always that's a bigpart of my why access to
business acumen, training andeducation and having having
those people who you can turn toto work on your business not
just in the business and andthey really need to, and I'm
(11:38):
really committed to and I thinkit's a real challenge for
Indigenous entrepreneurs ishaving those skills yourself and
polishing those skills foryourself, because that is the
most generative bit of educationyou can invest on in your whole
life.
Because if you're the onecreating your strategy not
(12:00):
consulting it out to someoneelse to do and then you execute
it, if you're creating, knowyour markets so well, of course
you do you're running yourbusiness.
You know your clients and yourcustomers.
Why wouldn't you want to investin that even more rather than
concentrating and, um, relyingon risk outside of your business
(12:26):
?
So I think that that's a realchallenge a challenge of time,
obviously, resources, but alsothe logistics in your life of
creating space to invest ineducation around your growth
plans for your business.
Clearly, capital and capitalinvestment and understanding
(12:47):
what sort of money you need forthe sort of business that you're
trying to grow, and I thinkit's more to that point we
always talk about, you know,access to capital biggest
challenge, and it really is.
It is because you know we'rewhat just over one generation
since assimilation policies werefull throttle in Australia
(13:13):
managing and curtailingIndigenous economic empowerment.
So we're only one generationand I'm certainly seeing it in
people who come through theMurrah program, for instance,
who are going from being born invery, very humble, very poor
(13:33):
beginnings to being making quiteserious money in a period of 40
years of their lives or evenless.
And that huge jump is is, Ithink, exciting challenge, not
not necessarily a negativechallenge, but it can be and
that is about developing themindset for how and
(13:57):
understanding the, the, thetensions involved in managing
wealth and social mobility forIndigenous for yourself as an
Indigenous person and yourfamily in the context of our
communities which are stillfacing entrenched poverty and
entrenched disadvantage.
(14:19):
So I think there are a numberof challenges.
But just to circle back on thecapital piece, it is essential
for people to have trusted banksand investors to go to and to
really develop thoserelationships in what makes
sense and great financial sensefor their businesses.
(14:43):
So I think that's a bit aboutyour networks and how you
understand and have access topeople who might be in those
places.
And again, I think that'sanother challenge that the
broader ecosystem has is we'rereally good at networking
together and and amongstourselves, as we should well be
(15:08):
in developing those sort ofcontemporary kinship
relationships across businesses.
But, moreover, it's thenetworks with non-indigenous
lenders and investors and banksthat will support the operations
(15:29):
and the potential growth ofyour business, and how you
develop out all of those sort ofnetworks is absolutely critical
.
So all of the challenges Ispoke about are, of course, also
opportunities, and that's thebig piece about challenges and
opportunities.
But I do see I've probablythought about and heard about
(15:51):
this idea of thinking abouttrade is a really big actionable
item in the Indigenous businessecosystem and there's a lot of
different players for it theAustrade or DFAT and and some of
our Indigenous business sectorplayers like Supply Nation and
(16:11):
the Chambers that are reallydedicating time to supporting
businesses who want to thinkabout trading their services or
goods internationally becausethere are bigger economies than
Australia and thinking about howdoes what you create, how is it
(16:34):
of value?
More broadly, to whom is it ofvalue and how will you create
those networks and develop thosenetworks to understand and go
for trade relations, and I thinkthat's where we're going to see
some of our sector start togrow.
(16:55):
But just even reflecting on $16billion in one financial year
in terms of a contribution toour Australian economy and
knowing Narelle and Tessa, thisis only a partial figure, oh my
God.
That excites me because it justgoes to give it a little
(17:17):
insight through the window intohow much value Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander peopleare bringing to Australia every
day.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, as you sort ofsaid in the report, that as well
as that you know the $16.1billion in revenue there's also
benefits that are far greaterthan just the economic
activities.
So contributions, opportunitiesfor Indigenous employment and
self-determination,intergenerational wealth
(17:47):
generation and sharing ofIndigenous knowledge, provision
of culturally sensitive servicesto communities and trust
building within the community.
So you know we talk about that$16.1 billion, but it's so much
broader than that, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Exactly and really that broader list of things that
you just said, that we wroteabout, and we should probably,
you know, unpack that a littlebit.
That's really so much morevaluable in so many ways.
I mean, I think I'm excitedthis, this next snapshot that
we'll we'll put out, um laterthis year, we're delving further
(18:23):
into these numbers that wepresented in snapshot three to,
for the first time, be able toreveal how many of that 116,795
people are Aboriginal and TorresStrait Islander, whilst we know
from previous impact reports,like Sleeping Giant Report,
(18:44):
supply Nation did around youknow, the return on investment
of Indigenous firms or the workthat Professor Boyd-Hunter from
the Australian NationalUniversity has done on
Indigenous businesses being 100times more likely to employ
Indigenous people.
We don't know the number yetand we're gonna, we're gonna
(19:09):
share that number this year andI think this, this kind of
game-changing conversation,whilst Indigenous business is
about, you know, bringingservices and goods of value to
markets and creating realgenerational change in families.
(19:37):
So the employment story, as yousay, and I do think it's
important, and I know there's atension where Aboriginal
business and certainlyIndigenous procurement policies
have been talked about.
You know they're not just aboutgrowing business, they're
actually about an Indigenousemployment strategy and that
that can kind of get in the wayor muddy the waters around the
(20:00):
importance of growing businesses.
Yes, we want to grow businessesbecause they will contribute
over the long term, includingemployment.
But the employment figures areso super exciting because
they're not just individuals.
As you know, however, many ofthat 116,000 are Aboriginal and
(20:21):
Torres Strait Islander.
They're part of a familynetwork that wage is going to
support themselves, a familycontributing all over that
community and region andcertainly being of critical
value to those businessesthey're employed with.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I'm still looking at $16.1 billion.
Sorry, I'm really blown away.
Firstly, I think you'reextraordinary, michelle, and
then just looking at, I meancreating a data set.
What is that?
How do you think that willstart to influence policymaking
and support for Aboriginalbusiness?
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander business and enterprise
.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, I do.
I do think the way it ishelpful in facilitating change.
You can hear from policy makersin governments and the like,
you know, intergovernmentalorganisations that it goes to
tell a story about this growingsuccess, which is important.
(21:25):
But I'm really thinking, tessaand Narelle, it's about putting
these numbers in the hands ofIndigenous entrepreneurs like
yourselves and hearing about howthis, how you use it, uh, to
tell the story.
I've had some of our Murrahalumni say, you know, having the
snapshot reports, um, kindSnapshot Reports kind of shaves
(21:47):
30 to 40 minutes off anyconversation with a potential
new, you know, customer orclient and certainly under the
procurement policies, theyunderstand it helps build trust
in Aboriginal business by havingthese numbers and that just
makes me so proud that we can bea part of building this.
(22:11):
But we can't do it alone.
And I guess to the other partof your question, building this
data set is a collaborativeeffort.
We do it with Indigenousbusiness data.
Those organisations that youknow hold these registries of
indigenous businesses and we wework with them to collate the
(22:36):
richest kind of group of of dataas we can and then we integrate
it into the abs's longitudinalbusiness data set and then we we
delete it because we say everytime we do this and we do this
every two years, these bigintegrations, that it is at the
(22:57):
will and behest of the datacustodians on behalf of the
Indigenous business ecosystem,and so it's to be collaborative,
and one of the reasons I'vebeen really love the metaphors
that we try and use withDillendore, and the image on the
front of the snapshot is of aspider's web, that idea that it
(23:19):
is incredibly strong and itholds together, but it could be
gone if the waters rush over itor if someone brushes it away in
the snap of an eye.
It is a snapshot in time, um,and, but it took a lot of work
to build that snapshot in time,and we want to say that, um, the
(23:41):
snapshot not only gives theoutcome of of these numbers, but
it is in the building of itthat shows true Indigenous
business leadership, by bringingall of these players together
to create the data set.
That's exciting and it can onlyget richer with time.
(24:02):
Next time we are integrating,we'll be adding, you know, at
least four or five new businessdata, cost data, so the data is
going to be richer and morerepresentative over time every
time we do it, and I thinkthat's a part of it too, and
growing that spirit ofcollaboration in our ecosystem
(24:24):
is really key to that.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
For you personally and professionally.
Has there been a connectionpoint or a person or an
organisation that's been, Iguess, a huge elevator for you
in your career?
Hmm, gosh, you seem to havebeen that person for a lot of
people yeah, no, thank you, andI appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Um, yeah, definitely, um, I think for me, uh,
professor ian williamson, whowas on my doctoral um panel,
buddy, he's also the co-founderof Murrah with me and continues
to be a lifelong colleague,mentor and friend.
He's the person who I go toevery time I've got like a real
(25:16):
conundrum or career dilemma andhe's just and also questions
sometimes about opportunitiesthat come to me.
I remember when Ian is anAfrican-American professor of HR
.
He's very kind of opposite tome in so many ways, including
(25:41):
the fact that he's very rationalin ways, including the fact
that he's very rational, logicalapproach to the world and to
responding to you.
It just everything makes sensewhen he says it and you just go.
Well, I didn't think of that.
I feel much more circular anddifferent sort of go, much more
(26:02):
approach the work I do in a veryintuitive, relational way, not
to say he isn't that, but justthe way he talks is like that
and I find it helpful because itreally cuts out some of the
noise that perhaps I can get,you know, hooked up on.
But Ian's fantastic and youknow he's a dean of a business
(26:25):
school at the University ofCalifornia in Irvine now and you
know, he's just one of thoseincredibly talented people who I
can have ceiling conversationswith and he creates the time for
me, even though we're ondifferent continents.
(26:45):
So he's been my elevator andstrong, strong um supporter, I
would say so good and, uh,somebody who's gone back to the
US.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So that's um different to that moment.
Um, what, uh, just I'm sointerested in?
Um, I mean, your career hasbeen extraordinary.
I'm so interested in the innerworkings of um, your, your brain
as well, like even just thetimes that you feel immense
frustration and I mean what,what things?
Is there anything thatfrustrates the absolute hell out
(27:18):
of you?
Speaker 4 (27:19):
it's.
It's probably not good to sayon a podcast, but I just really
I work really well in a teamenvironment.
I know what I'm good at andwhat I'm not good at.
And I'm not good at how do yousay the particulars of things,
details, that's just not mystrong point.
(27:40):
I can do it.
It just takes me a lot of time,uh, to do it.
And because I'm across so manydifferent things now, and all
for Dylan Durer and my associatedean role, um, and all the
research projects that I've goton, I just feel like a mad
hatter most days of moving fromone thing to the next.
(28:01):
So I have to really payattention.
And I have a very troubled teamof people, in particular my
executive officer, lan Huang,who's, to me, the queen of the
Dillendoor Centre.
I've worked with Lan sincepretty much the beginning of the
Murrah programs well over 12,13 years now and and I couldn't
(28:27):
do this without her, I couldn'tdo what I do without her.
It's not possible, um, and sotogether we create this and now,
together with all of our team,um, I I really do lean on the
team I love.
I mean, I'm a theatre maker, I'man improviser, I like to work
(28:48):
and trust that different peoplehave different parts of what
we're building together and thatthey trust me that I can make
things out of nothing.
You know, a real bricoleur, ifyou will, I'll pull a bit from
here and a bit from there andwe'll we'll create something
together, um, and that that'swhat I love.
(29:09):
Um, so that I'm verycomfortable with that sort of
ambiguity and that sort of highlevel of tension.
Um then I need the, the otherside um people to help me with
the more um legalistic andcontractual and programmatic
details I can, absolutely, I canabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Tess is looking at me going.
That sounds familiar, doesn't?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
it the detail part.
There's somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
They're amazing.
I know that time's running out,but what kind of legacy do you
want to leave?
I mean, it's such a bigquestion and maybe a cheesy
question, but we'd love to askit.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Anyway, I guess I really in this space and, you
know, never in my wildest dreamsas a young person would I
imagine that I'd be in thebusiness space.
But wherever it is that I amand my work across the arts and
now into business, it is aboutcreating or kicking the door
(30:16):
open for our mob, and creatingeducational opportunities has
really been a big part of what Ido that are really specialised
and for Indigenous cohorts.
I think is really superimportant.
(30:39):
I just want to share those sortof stories and and create
stories through research for ourcommunities and our
entrepreneurs or whether it beour artists or you know, I'm
working with politicians orwhatever it is but use their
(30:59):
stories to highlight andshowcase um through through that
back to our communities.
You know, because our, ourcommunities and our business
entrepreneurs are sosophisticated because they have
to work and adapt every singleday, in every single thing that
(31:21):
they do.
It is an incredible high levelskill and a leadership skill
that, um, you know, top levelleaders are always looking to
hone and all doing that everyday.
And I just think, being thatperson who can reflect back how
incredible, how sophisticatedyou all are and really how,
(31:46):
that's what makes me very proudis to be the greatest
cheerleader for all of ouralumni and to also, you know,
through the research, createthat evidence that tips it away
from being such a disadvantageddiscourse.
I mean, we're all so goddamnsick of it and even the the
(32:10):
frame in closing the gap stillcontinues to have a
disadvantaged discourse and it'sit's unfair, um, because it
puts a neo-colonial managerialframework on our communities and
our families and that's whyit's unfair.
(32:31):
I understand there's a gap.
Of course we all do and we wantto work on it.
That's why we're all doing thiswork.
But there are also many ways inwhich the value that Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islanderpeople bring every day and
through the generations and intothe future is making a
(32:52):
difference too.
So I hope that the work that Ido is able to help assist the
reframing efforts as well, sothat we are seen as not only an
important part of the Australiansociety and economy, but
actually a critical and uniquepart of it.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Absolutely fantastic, you know, taking a closer look
at your journey and then havinga yarn with you and listening to
your incredible depth ofknowledge across a huge range of
things.
Michelle, thanks for joining us.
I mean your passion,persistence and kicking through
doors and bringing the data andresearch to people, illuminating
(33:39):
that Indigenous ecosystem interms of highlighting the value
to everybody else out there.
But for me, looking at itpersonally as a Black woman, I'm
going gosh.
This is really important for usto know and understand the
impact that we have, thecontribution we make, and that
(34:00):
it's absolutely possible andnormal to start doing this for
yourself.
If that's the direction thatyou want to choose, and if there
is anybody out there, or ifthey're looking to take a
different direction.
If you wanted to leave ourlisteners with one message, what
would you really want them toconnect with?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
message uh, what would you really want them to
connect with?
I'd like them to to um believenot only are you enough, but you
are incredible and please makethat connection with someone to
talk about what you want to do,how you want to do it, move it
forward.
That person who can activelylisten and support and um, be
that cheerleader for you, thatthat will change your world and
(34:48):
you will change theirs.
So continue to connect and andcontinue to share all that you
are, because you are incrediblemichelle, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Um.
I can't wait to share this witheverybody.
I will edit out all my ums andahs and stuttering and uh, which
I usually do, uh, because I getso excited.
Yeah, but again, thanks onbehalf of um InverConnect for
for popping in your busyschedule oh, thank you and
thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I really appreciate it.
It was great to have you on.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
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By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(35:52):
impact of the Ember Connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion withus, and to find out more about
Ember Connect, visitemberconnectcomau.
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hiya, I'm Narelle Henry, a Noongar woman living
out here in Perth in the wildwild west.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm Tessa Hayes.
I'm a Wadjala born on ParamountCountry and now living and
working on Wadjak Noongar Butja.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hi, this is Michelle Evans.
I'm the Director of the DylanDewar Centre for Indigenous
Business Leadership at theUniversity of Melbourne and
Melbourne Business School.
I'm a Koori woman from theHunter Valley in New South Wales
and live and work here onWiradjuri country in Albury, New
South Wales in Albury, newSouth Wales.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
So, if we just kick off, can you tell us a little
bit about your life's journey todate and what brought you into
the work that you're doing atthe moment?
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I guess what has really brought me to where I am
today leading a businessleadership centre is not quite
straightforward.
I started in theatre and alwayswanted to be a theatre director
.
I guess I've kept with thedirector bit, but it's certainly
(01:38):
a long way from the arts toacademia and leading quite an
intense research centre at theUniversity of Melbourne.
I guess being in the arts maybenow you're getting.
How was I not so employable?
(01:59):
But I wasn't.
In the mid-90s Everyone wantedto see the word management in
your CV and certainly I didn'thave that per se, even though I
managed very complex projects.
I didn't have that from myeducation.
So I went into an area of artsmanagement and I studied that at
(02:22):
the Victorian College of theArts in Melbourne and it just
really opened up my life tobeing back into areas and
working with Indigenouscommunities across Victoria.
Working in community radio beinga part of founding Three Cool
and Deadly, which is Melbourne'sIndigenous radio station,
(02:44):
continues on today and becomingthe founder of the Willens
Centre for Indigenous Arts andCultural Development at the
Victorian College of the Arts tosupport, you know, Indigenous
elite artists who are trying tocreate new content and really
speak to not only culturalknowledges but building up these
(03:05):
incredible vehicles throughartistic creations to share
culture and also to criticallyengage with ideas around
identity and the future.
So I got really excited aboutthat and was really happy to
lead the Welland Centre for overseven years.
(03:28):
But during that time one of theareas that I got really excited
about was as an arts manager.
By then labelling myself inthat way or identifying in that
way, I noticed that a lot ofAboriginal arts centres
necessarily have Aboriginal artsmanagers and a lot of
(03:52):
Indigenous artists were beingmanaged by non-Indigenous arts
managers and it came a realfactor for me.
So I built a new course at theUniversity of Melbourne for
Indigenous Arts Management andit was during this time really
where in teaching that courseand working with incredible
(04:14):
Indigenous artists and artsmanagers across the country,
that the idea around Indigenousleadership really started to
emerge as a space for me to bevery interested in and I thought
I might do my PhD then I haddone my Master's by research,
returning to some of thoseearlier cultural projects that
(04:37):
I'd done back in Newcastle andthe Hunter Valley, asking
questions about you know, isthere really long-term outcomes
from these sort of short,exciting cultural projects that
you do with community and tryingto understand a sort of theory
of change, if you will.
(04:58):
And I thought to do a PhD.
I'd really want to understandIndigenous leadership more and
it was at that point that I hada very big sliding doors moment
where I had to find out where tostudy leadership, and the only
place you could study it at thattime, which was the
mid-naughties, was in a businessschool, and I had been in the
(05:21):
arts all of my career up untilthen and it was a real change
for me.
I eventually, after a couple ofknockbacks and trying, again,
got into the PhD program andstudied around Indigenous arts
leadership and I think you know,when I entered the Melbourne
(05:41):
Business School where I did myPhD, there were no other
Aboriginal people studying atthat time.
There have been Aboriginalpeople go through MBAs there,
but only a few and far betweenover the history of the school.
So I really wanted to, you know, have more people there to talk
(06:02):
to really and to work with.
Um, it was uh, yeah, I was soused to being in community and
working with students and youngpeople and doing programs and
being out on regional tours etc.
That it was a real shock to thesystem at how exclusive the
(06:26):
business school was, andcertainly to our communities.
So I set about establishing anIndigenous Business Masterclass
program in 2011.
I worked on a sort of regionalconsultation tour in partnership
with Kinaway, the AboriginalChamber of Commerce in Victoria,
(06:49):
which was also setting up atthe same time, and just really
trying to understand whatAboriginal business people
wanted in a business program,what sort of business acumen
training would be really handy.
And I guess that program, whichcontinues on today and we just
recently had the first module ofour 16th generation of the
(07:11):
Murrah program go through just acouple of weeks ago in NAM has
just been such an incrediblygenerative collaboration with
Indigenous entrepreneurs acrossAustralia, talking about what
type of research we need, whattype of other programs, how do
(07:33):
we democratise businesseducation out into our regional
and remote communities all sortsof things that Indigenous
entrepreneurs have been callingfor, and that's really led to
not only the development of nowthe Dillendua Centre for
Indigenous Business Leadership,but has really directed me to
(07:56):
have that rich collaboration andto really be have those
feedback loops, I guess, withall of the different alumni that
I've worked with over the lastcentury of my career at the
University of Melbourne andMelbourne Business School and
Victorian College of the Arts.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I am blown away by how much you've done.
And then I almost fell off mychair when you had said that you
were an arts first, because Ididn't know that and you wanted
to be a director.
You've got some extraordinaryachievements there.
I think I need to take a secondto process that test.
Just ask the next question.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I actually was just going to read first.
Just read an excerpt that Ipulled from one of your research
papers, which says theIndigenous ecosystem makes an
important contribution to theAustralian economy, With 13,693
active and alive businesses andcorporations in 2022, generating
$16.1 billion in revenue,employing 116,795 people and
(08:56):
paying $4.2 billion in wages.
In terms of generated revenue,the ecosystem is around the same
size as the Australian timberindustry.
Now, I found that myself reallyinteresting, because I had no
idea of the you know the size of, as you say, the Indigenous
ecosystem.
So what are, I guess, what aresome of the challenges and
opportunities that you've foundin your research facing
(09:19):
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander leaders and
entrepreneurs for Australia?
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Islander leaders and entrepreneurs.
Yeah, it is exciting to nowhave these descriptive
statistics, these facts andfigures, I guess, to help us
describe the AustralianIndigenous business ecosystem.
And we really want to focus oncalling it an ecosystem because
there are so many differentplayers and actors in this space
(09:46):
, meaning, you know, from soletraders through to really
sophisticated investors andcorporations, aboriginal and
Indigenous corporations, andcommunity-controlled
organisations and all sorts ofother businesses, commercial and
(10:07):
not-for-profit, in between.
So it's, and why it's importantfor us to understand it as an
ecosystem, is that what we find,certainly from our rich, slower
research, our qualitativeresearch and you would find this
too from people talking to youis how integrated the ecosystem
(10:30):
is, how many different umpathways between and and
circularity of um financial andand and programmatic commitments
happen between these businessesand and these different
organizations.
They they're not just siloedoff, they're actually oftentimes
working together, working andsupplying to each other, and I
(10:54):
think that's a really importantpart for us to understand the
leadership and the relationalleadership of our Indigenous
businesses and our Indigenousbusiness leaders.
I think you know the challengesfacing Indigenous entrepreneurs
are really well known and thatincludes just, you know, access.
(11:15):
I think always that's a bigpart of my why access to
business acumen, training andeducation and having having
those people who you can turn toto work on your business not
just in the business and andthey really need to, and I'm
(11:38):
really committed to and I thinkit's a real challenge for
Indigenous entrepreneurs ishaving those skills yourself and
polishing those skills foryourself, because that is the
most generative bit of educationyou can invest on in your whole
life.
Because if you're the onecreating your strategy not
(12:00):
consulting it out to someoneelse to do and then you execute
it, if you're creating, knowyour markets so well, of course
you do you're running yourbusiness.
You know your clients and yourcustomers.
Why wouldn't you want to investin that even more rather than
concentrating and, um, relyingon risk outside of your business
(12:26):
?
So I think that that's a realchallenge a challenge of time,
obviously, resources, but alsothe logistics in your life of
creating space to invest ineducation around your growth
plans for your business.
Clearly, capital and capitalinvestment and understanding
(12:47):
what sort of money you need forthe sort of business that you're
trying to grow, and I thinkit's more to that point we
always talk about, you know,access to capital biggest
challenge, and it really is.
It is because you know we'rewhat just over one generation
since assimilation policies werefull throttle in Australia
(13:13):
managing and curtailingIndigenous economic empowerment.
So we're only one generationand I'm certainly seeing it in
people who come through theMurrah program, for instance,
who are going from being born invery, very humble, very poor
(13:33):
beginnings to being making quiteserious money in a period of 40
years of their lives or evenless.
And that huge jump is is, Ithink, exciting challenge, not
not necessarily a negativechallenge, but it can be and
that is about developing themindset for how and
(13:57):
understanding the, the, thetensions involved in managing
wealth and social mobility forIndigenous for yourself as an
Indigenous person and yourfamily in the context of our
communities which are stillfacing entrenched poverty and
entrenched disadvantage.
(14:19):
So I think there are a numberof challenges.
But just to circle back on thecapital piece, it is essential
for people to have trusted banksand investors to go to and to
really develop thoserelationships in what makes
sense and great financial sensefor their businesses.
(14:43):
So I think that's a bit aboutyour networks and how you
understand and have access topeople who might be in those
places.
And again, I think that'sanother challenge that the
broader ecosystem has is we'rereally good at networking
together and and amongstourselves, as we should well be
(15:08):
in developing those sort ofcontemporary kinship
relationships across businesses.
But, moreover, it's thenetworks with non-indigenous
lenders and investors and banksthat will support the operations
(15:29):
and the potential growth ofyour business, and how you
develop out all of those sort ofnetworks is absolutely critical
.
So all of the challenges Ispoke about are, of course, also
opportunities, and that's thebig piece about challenges and
opportunities.
But I do see I've probablythought about and heard about
(15:51):
this idea of thinking abouttrade is a really big actionable
item in the Indigenous businessecosystem and there's a lot of
different players for it theAustrade or DFAT and and some of
our Indigenous business sectorplayers like Supply Nation and
(16:11):
the Chambers that are reallydedicating time to supporting
businesses who want to thinkabout trading their services or
goods internationally becausethere are bigger economies than
Australia and thinking about howdoes what you create, how is it
(16:34):
of value?
More broadly, to whom is it ofvalue and how will you create
those networks and develop thosenetworks to understand and go
for trade relations, and I thinkthat's where we're going to see
some of our sector start togrow.
(16:55):
But just even reflecting on $16billion in one financial year
in terms of a contribution toour Australian economy and
knowing Narelle and Tessa, thisis only a partial figure, oh my
God.
That excites me because it justgoes to give it a little
(17:17):
insight through the window intohow much value Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander peopleare bringing to Australia every
day.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, as you sort ofsaid in the report, that as well
as that you know the $16.1billion in revenue there's also
benefits that are far greaterthan just the economic
activities.
So contributions, opportunitiesfor Indigenous employment and
self-determination,intergenerational wealth
(17:47):
generation and sharing ofIndigenous knowledge, provision
of culturally sensitive servicesto communities and trust
building within the community.
So you know we talk about that$16.1 billion, but it's so much
broader than that, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Exactly and really that broader list of things that
you just said, that we wroteabout, and we should probably,
you know, unpack that a littlebit.
That's really so much morevaluable in so many ways.
I mean, I think I'm excitedthis, this next snapshot that
we'll we'll put out, um laterthis year, we're delving further
(18:23):
into these numbers that wepresented in snapshot three to,
for the first time, be able toreveal how many of that 116,795
people are Aboriginal and TorresStrait Islander, whilst we know
from previous impact reports,like Sleeping Giant Report,
(18:44):
supply Nation did around youknow, the return on investment
of Indigenous firms or the workthat Professor Boyd-Hunter from
the Australian NationalUniversity has done on
Indigenous businesses being 100times more likely to employ
Indigenous people.
We don't know the number yetand we're gonna, we're gonna
(19:09):
share that number this year andI think this, this kind of
game-changing conversation,whilst Indigenous business is
about, you know, bringingservices and goods of value to
markets and creating realgenerational change in families.
(19:37):
So the employment story, as yousay, and I do think it's
important, and I know there's atension where Aboriginal
business and certainlyIndigenous procurement policies
have been talked about.
You know they're not just aboutgrowing business, they're
actually about an Indigenousemployment strategy and that
that can kind of get in the wayor muddy the waters around the
(20:00):
importance of growing businesses.
Yes, we want to grow businessesbecause they will contribute
over the long term, includingemployment.
But the employment figures areso super exciting because
they're not just individuals.
As you know, however, many ofthat 116,000 are Aboriginal and
(20:21):
Torres Strait Islander.
They're part of a familynetwork that wage is going to
support themselves, a familycontributing all over that
community and region andcertainly being of critical
value to those businessesthey're employed with.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I'm still looking at $16.1 billion.
Sorry, I'm really blown away.
Firstly, I think you'reextraordinary, michelle, and
then just looking at, I meancreating a data set.
What is that?
How do you think that willstart to influence policymaking
and support for Aboriginalbusiness?
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslander business and enterprise
.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, I do.
I do think the way it ishelpful in facilitating change.
You can hear from policy makersin governments and the like,
you know, intergovernmentalorganisations that it goes to
tell a story about this growingsuccess, which is important.
(21:25):
But I'm really thinking, tessaand Narelle, it's about putting
these numbers in the hands ofIndigenous entrepreneurs like
yourselves and hearing about howthis, how you use it, uh, to
tell the story.
I've had some of our Murrahalumni say, you know, having the
snapshot reports, um, kindSnapshot Reports kind of shaves
(21:47):
30 to 40 minutes off anyconversation with a potential
new, you know, customer orclient and certainly under the
procurement policies, theyunderstand it helps build trust
in Aboriginal business by havingthese numbers and that just
makes me so proud that we can bea part of building this.
(22:11):
But we can't do it alone.
And I guess to the other partof your question, building this
data set is a collaborativeeffort.
We do it with Indigenousbusiness data.
Those organisations that youknow hold these registries of
indigenous businesses and we wework with them to collate the
(22:36):
richest kind of group of of dataas we can and then we integrate
it into the abs's longitudinalbusiness data set and then we we
delete it because we say everytime we do this and we do this
every two years, these bigintegrations, that it is at the
(22:57):
will and behest of the datacustodians on behalf of the
Indigenous business ecosystem,and so it's to be collaborative,
and one of the reasons I'vebeen really love the metaphors
that we try and use withDillendore, and the image on the
front of the snapshot is of aspider's web, that idea that it
(23:19):
is incredibly strong and itholds together, but it could be
gone if the waters rush over itor if someone brushes it away in
the snap of an eye.
It is a snapshot in time, um,and, but it took a lot of work
to build that snapshot in time,and we want to say that, um, the
(23:41):
snapshot not only gives theoutcome of of these numbers, but
it is in the building of itthat shows true Indigenous
business leadership, by bringingall of these players together
to create the data set.
That's exciting and it can onlyget richer with time.
(24:02):
Next time we are integrating,we'll be adding, you know, at
least four or five new businessdata, cost data, so the data is
going to be richer and morerepresentative over time every
time we do it, and I thinkthat's a part of it too, and
growing that spirit ofcollaboration in our ecosystem
(24:24):
is really key to that.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
For you personally and professionally.
Has there been a connectionpoint or a person or an
organisation that's been, Iguess, a huge elevator for you
in your career?
Hmm, gosh, you seem to havebeen that person for a lot of
people yeah, no, thank you, andI appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Um, yeah, definitely, um, I think for me, uh,
professor ian williamson, whowas on my doctoral um panel,
buddy, he's also the co-founderof Murrah with me and continues
to be a lifelong colleague,mentor and friend.
He's the person who I go toevery time I've got like a real
(25:16):
conundrum or career dilemma andhe's just and also questions
sometimes about opportunitiesthat come to me.
I remember when Ian is anAfrican-American professor of HR
.
He's very kind of opposite tome in so many ways, including
(25:41):
the fact that he's very rationalin ways, including the fact
that he's very rational, logicalapproach to the world and to
responding to you.
It just everything makes sensewhen he says it and you just go.
Well, I didn't think of that.
I feel much more circular anddifferent sort of go, much more
(26:02):
approach the work I do in a veryintuitive, relational way, not
to say he isn't that, but justthe way he talks is like that
and I find it helpful because itreally cuts out some of the
noise that perhaps I can get,you know, hooked up on.
But Ian's fantastic and youknow he's a dean of a business
(26:25):
school at the University ofCalifornia in Irvine now and you
know, he's just one of thoseincredibly talented people who I
can have ceiling conversationswith and he creates the time for
me, even though we're ondifferent continents.
(26:45):
So he's been my elevator andstrong, strong um supporter, I
would say so good and, uh,somebody who's gone back to the
US.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So that's um different to that moment.
Um, what, uh, just I'm sointerested in?
Um, I mean, your career hasbeen extraordinary.
I'm so interested in the innerworkings of um, your, your brain
as well, like even just thetimes that you feel immense
frustration and I mean what,what things?
Is there anything thatfrustrates the absolute hell out
(27:18):
of you?
Speaker 4 (27:19):
it's.
It's probably not good to sayon a podcast, but I just really
I work really well in a teamenvironment.
I know what I'm good at andwhat I'm not good at.
And I'm not good at how do yousay the particulars of things,
details, that's just not mystrong point.
(27:40):
I can do it.
It just takes me a lot of time,uh, to do it.
And because I'm across so manydifferent things now, and all
for Dylan Durer and my associatedean role, um, and all the
research projects that I've goton, I just feel like a mad
hatter most days of moving fromone thing to the next.
(28:01):
So I have to really payattention.
And I have a very troubled teamof people, in particular my
executive officer, lan Huang,who's, to me, the queen of the
Dillendoor Centre.
I've worked with Lan sincepretty much the beginning of the
Murrah programs well over 12,13 years now and and I couldn't
(28:27):
do this without her, I couldn'tdo what I do without her.
It's not possible, um, and sotogether we create this and now,
together with all of our team,um, I I really do lean on the
team I love.
I mean, I'm a theatre maker, I'man improviser, I like to work
(28:48):
and trust that different peoplehave different parts of what
we're building together and thatthey trust me that I can make
things out of nothing.
You know, a real bricoleur, ifyou will, I'll pull a bit from
here and a bit from there andwe'll we'll create something
together, um, and that that'swhat I love.
(29:09):
Um, so that I'm verycomfortable with that sort of
ambiguity and that sort of highlevel of tension.
Um then I need the, the otherside um people to help me with
the more um legalistic andcontractual and programmatic
details I can, absolutely, I canabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Tess is looking at me going.
That sounds familiar, doesn't?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
it the detail part.
There's somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
They're amazing.
I know that time's running out,but what kind of legacy do you
want to leave?
I mean, it's such a bigquestion and maybe a cheesy
question, but we'd love to askit.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Anyway, I guess I really in this space and, you
know, never in my wildest dreamsas a young person would I
imagine that I'd be in thebusiness space.
But wherever it is that I amand my work across the arts and
now into business, it is aboutcreating or kicking the door
(30:16):
open for our mob, and creatingeducational opportunities has
really been a big part of what Ido that are really specialised
and for Indigenous cohorts.
I think is really superimportant.
(30:39):
I just want to share those sortof stories and and create
stories through research for ourcommunities and our
entrepreneurs or whether it beour artists or you know, I'm
working with politicians orwhatever it is but use their
(30:59):
stories to highlight andshowcase um through through that
back to our communities.
You know, because our, ourcommunities and our business
entrepreneurs are sosophisticated because they have
to work and adapt every singleday, in every single thing that
(31:21):
they do.
It is an incredible high levelskill and a leadership skill
that, um, you know, top levelleaders are always looking to
hone and all doing that everyday.
And I just think, being thatperson who can reflect back how
incredible, how sophisticatedyou all are and really how,
(31:46):
that's what makes me very proudis to be the greatest
cheerleader for all of ouralumni and to also, you know,
through the research, createthat evidence that tips it away
from being such a disadvantageddiscourse.
I mean, we're all so goddamnsick of it and even the the
(32:10):
frame in closing the gap stillcontinues to have a
disadvantaged discourse and it'sit's unfair, um, because it
puts a neo-colonial managerialframework on our communities and
our families and that's whyit's unfair.
(32:31):
I understand there's a gap.
Of course we all do and we wantto work on it.
That's why we're all doing thiswork.
But there are also many ways inwhich the value that Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islanderpeople bring every day and
through the generations and intothe future is making a
(32:52):
difference too.
So I hope that the work that Ido is able to help assist the
reframing efforts as well, sothat we are seen as not only an
important part of the Australiansociety and economy, but
actually a critical and uniquepart of it.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Absolutely fantastic, you know, taking a closer look
at your journey and then havinga yarn with you and listening to
your incredible depth ofknowledge across a huge range of
things.
Michelle, thanks for joining us.
I mean your passion,persistence and kicking through
doors and bringing the data andresearch to people, illuminating
(33:39):
that Indigenous ecosystem interms of highlighting the value
to everybody else out there.
But for me, looking at itpersonally as a Black woman, I'm
going gosh.
This is really important for usto know and understand the
impact that we have, thecontribution we make, and that
(34:00):
it's absolutely possible andnormal to start doing this for
yourself.
If that's the direction thatyou want to choose, and if there
is anybody out there, or ifthey're looking to take a
different direction.
If you wanted to leave ourlisteners with one message, what
would you really want them toconnect with?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
message uh, what would you really want them to
connect with?
I'd like them to to um believenot only are you enough, but you
are incredible and please makethat connection with someone to
talk about what you want to do,how you want to do it, move it
forward.
That person who can activelylisten and support and um, be
that cheerleader for you, thatthat will change your world and
(34:48):
you will change theirs.
So continue to connect and andcontinue to share all that you
are, because you are incrediblemichelle, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Um.
I can't wait to share this witheverybody.
I will edit out all my ums andahs and stuttering and uh, which
I usually do, uh, because I getso excited.
Yeah, but again, thanks onbehalf of um InverConnect for
for popping in your busyschedule oh, thank you and
thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (35:15):
I really appreciate it.
It was great to have you on.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connect'smembers and allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(35:52):
impact of the Ember Connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion withus, and to find out more about
Ember Connect, visitemberconnectcomau.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com