June 5, 2025 • 52 mins
When childhood friends Katie Kiss and Liza Fraser-Gooda-McGuire sit down to yarn, something magical happens. Their conversation weaves through shared memories of growing up Aboriginal in Rockhampton – the beef capital of Australia – where racism existed alongside a profound sense of community that shaped them both.
Katie, now the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner, lost her mother at six and was raised by her non-Indigenous father with the support of an entire community. "I had many mums looking out for us, many dads looking out for us," she shares, describing how elders ensured she maintained cultural connections despite her loss. Liza, a businesswoman and foundation director, grew up watching her grandmother and other community leaders advocate for change while creating safe spaces for children to gather.
Their stories reveal the power of what they call "the village" – interconnected families who provided meals, beds, guidance, and love to all children within their community. This network enabled both women to overcome significant challenges. Katie candidly discusses becoming a mother at 17, balancing education, work, and parenting with the support of mother-in-laws who "treated me like their own daughter" regardless of relationships with their sons.
The conversation takes a profound turn when discussing current challenges. Katie's nationwide consultations reveal widespread concerns about youth justice, housing crises, and especially the intensification of racism following the 2023 Voice Referendum. Katie shares her son's heartbreaking question after the referendum: "How do I walk into that space every day knowing they all voted against me....?"
Despite these challenges, their message remains one of hope and determination. Both women feel guided by ancestors – "I feel that spirit all the time," Katie says, describing how elders reach out with support precisely when needed. Their advice centres on reclaiming resilience:
“Your resilience is yours,” Katie says. “Use it fully to reach your goals.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, I'm Narelle Henry .
I'm a Noongar woman living andworking over here on Noongar
Country.
Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I ampossibly the whitest woman in
Australia also living on Noongarcountry, I've got to tell you
this yarn is one of thosespecial ones, a kind that really
stays with you for a reallylong time.
(00:53):
For me it was really powerful,it was heartfelt and it quite
simply is a conversation aboutgrowing up on country, the
strength of family and community, and how those early
experiences shape the way weshow up in the world today.
There's wisdom here, there'slaughter the kind that makes
your belly ache a little bit andthen there are a few quiet,
emotional moments too.
Honestly, it was one of thosechats where you walk away
(01:15):
feeling a little more groundedand a whole lot more inspired.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hi, my name's Katie Kiss.
I'm the Aboriginal and TorresStrait Islander Social Justice
Commissioner.
I work at the Human RightsCommission of Australia and I
was born and bred on the landsof the Dharambal people in
Rockhampton.
I now live in Brisbane onQuandamooka country on the
bayside.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Hi, I'm Liza Fraser-Gooden-Maguire.
I am a proud Bidjara GungalooEamon woman was born on the
lands of the Dharambal Nation,now living in Wodgup Boodja, my
home away from home.
I am a businesswoman, adirector, a co-chair and also a
director in a charitablefoundation.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, we've got a bit of a bonus today, so informing
your agenda for the next coupleof years.
You've done some massivetravels around and we've also
hijacked Liza's day, so thanksfor joining us, liza as well.
So we'll just sit and have ayarn, because I want to know all
about how you know each other.
So you've mentioned Rocky andQueensland, so how do you guys
(02:23):
even know each other?
Because, liza, I only met youlast week.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yes, Well, I suppose Liza and I are both from
Rockhampton, so I'm a KandubiriWidi woman.
My family are from NorthQueensland.
My grandfather's country isaround Bowen Basin, between
Collinsville and Nebo.
My grandmother's country iscentral Cape York around Cowan.
But they got moved to PalmIsland.
My mother was born there.
(02:47):
They got moved down toRockhampton to build down to
Woorabinda, actually to buildthe mission there when they were
at the back end of World War IIwhen they were bringing all the
people from Hopevale down.
So they moved all those mobfrom the Hopevale mission down
to Woorabinda.
And so they moved Pop from PalmIsland to Worribinda because he
had carpentry skills.
So they took him down to buildthe houses for the people at
(03:09):
Worribinda because the missionwas fairly new at that stage,
and so they were only there forabout a year and then they moved
into Rockhampton.
So my mother was born at PalmIsland.
There was five of the children,five of the 11 born on Palm
Island and then when they got toRockhampton or Borabinda, uncle
Winnie was born there first andthen they had the next children
in Rockhampton.
So that's how we kind of landedin Rocky and then I was born in
(03:32):
Rockhampton.
Mum met my dad there and that'show we ended up there on
Darenball Country.
So.
But, liza, her family was inthere and she can tell you about
that.
But at about 10 years old, youknow bingo halls and all that
sort of stuff.
You know our grandparents usedto go to bingo.
Nana Shirley and my Nana, nanaKatie, was a big bingo fan.
(03:53):
So they used to go to the bingoand all that sort of stuff and
all of us kids would go therelooking for money from the
grandparents.
So we connected as kids in thecommunity and you know, rocky,
in those days we were ridingaround on bikes and going to the
Southside Pool every weekendand so we all connected as a
community of young people andchildren and we've all stayed
connected over the years.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Yeah, I mean I'm a proud Bidjara Gungaloo Eman
woman.
So I mean the same story.
My grandmother they were all inthat war of intermission, nan
was and Grandad were one of thefirst to have a first social
housing.
So that took them intoRockhampton and to date that 110
(04:32):
West Street is still quite asignificant home base for all of
us and that's where we grew upin being a part of the community
and sitting around the tableand you know watching all our
grandparents lead the way indriving, you know organisational
change for our community interms of housing, legal aid and
(04:54):
health, in terms of buildingthat for us.
So I guess our connection in,yeah, coming together and being
a part of that family and youknow Kate mentioned, you know
one of her agendas is drivingand building that village and
back in those old days it wasall about village and all being
around each other and in ourcommunity and raising, you know
(05:17):
strong people, strong communityand maintaining that strong
culture and who we are and Iguess that's taken the journey
of where we both sit as strongAboriginal women.
You know driving and buildingand advocating you know for our
communities in the positionsthat we sit, as you know, kate
being our Aboriginal TorresStrait Islander Justice, social
(05:42):
Commissioner and I guess my partin being, you know, sitting in
the different spaces, drivingeconomic development and
economic change for our peopleas a businesswoman, it's really
interesting when Liza talksabout the households in
Rockhampton, because there wasRocky is made up divided by the
Fitzroy River, the big brownsnake, and it's on Drambool
(06:05):
country.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
But Liza's family's house was on the south side of
Rockhampton and my family'shouse was on the north side of
Rockhampton and Liza talks aboutNana Shirley's house being
social housing.
But my grandparents actuallyowned the first Aboriginal-owned
home in Rockhampton at 252 GrubStreet.
So our families all grew upthere and, like the Northside
(06:26):
house, all the Northside kidswould go to our family's home
there.
So when people were off playingcards and all that sort of
stuff all the kids would comethere for a feed.
Nana always had a big pot ofstew on the stove and loaves of
bread and bottles of cordial onthe table.
So all the mob used to comethere and they knew they had a
feed.
They knew they had a bed ifthey needed it, even though we
had a big packed house.
But that was the north sidehouse and Nana Shirley's, liza's
(06:48):
grandmother, was the south sidehouse.
But my mum and dad bought ahome in South Rockhampton so we
grew up on south side and soLiza's family home, or Nana
Shirley's place, was the housethat we hung out at and that's
how we kind of grew up knowingeach other and riding around and
having exposure to these oldpeople and all that sort of
(07:09):
stuff.
So yeah it was.
It was a privileged childhood inthat regard and we had access
to strong, safe spaces where youknow, if we didn't have that at
home or we had to go away fromhome for any reason, we had
those other places that we couldgo to.
My mum passed when I was sixyears old and my dad's
non-Indigenous, and so he hadtwo little Aboriginal girls that
(07:32):
he had to try and work out howto bring up in this world.
And so you know, I was veryprivileged to have people like
Nana Shirley and other elders inthe Rockhampton community that
looked out for me, knowing thatmy mum had passed.
But everyone knew who webelonged to, everyone knew who
the kids belonged to, who thefamilies came from, and so they
(07:52):
looked out for all the kids andmy sister and I my little sister
Kerry and I were veryprivileged that, even though we
didn't have our mum, we had manymums looking out for us in that
community, many dads lookingout for us in that community,
and they helped us to maintainthat cultural connection too,
with our mum being around us andkept us connected to our
(08:13):
grandparents as well on thenorth side of Rockhampton.
So we used to go down to Bingoat Scotia Place and Municipal
Theatre and ride our bikes downthere and Nana would come across
from north side and go to thebingo and we'd all connect with
her there.
So we're able to maintain ourconnection to our community
through that, even though we hadmum gone and a non-Indigenous
father who didn't really knowhow to keep us in our space
(08:34):
properly.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, and what was it like?
I've only been to Queensland acouple of times, but in terms of
, you know, rockhampton, growingup as Aboriginal girls and the
beef capital of Australia, beefcapital.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
On the topic of Capcom.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What was it like for Aboriginal people in Rocky when
you guys were growing up?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It was interesting because there was a lot of
racism around us.
Like you know, we used to go tothe Southside Pool every
weekend and there were storiesabout the Ku Klux Klan being in
Rockhampton at the time, and uskids would come from the pool
making our way home and any timewe saw a white van we'd all run
for cover.
We'd all go and duck into thenearest house on the street with
(09:17):
the garden bed so we could hidebehind the garden so that this
white van wouldn't pick us up.
I don't know to this daywhether that was just our oldies
trying to scare us or whetherthere was actually people going
around picking up kids off thestreet, because there was a fair
bit of racism in Rocky as.
I mentioned the beef capital ofthe world.
We had a lot of farmers andpastoralists and cow cockies and
(09:39):
stuff hanging around in town,but a lot of mining mob would
come into Rockhampton as well.
It was a central place to movethrough.
So I don't know whether it wasa sense of the oldies trying to
you know when they talk aboutJundity going to get you and all
that sort of stuff.
I don't know whether it wasthat or whether there was actual
cause for us to be worriedabout some of those practices
that were going on.
(10:00):
But you know, even to this dayRocky still has a lot of
exposure to racism in thattownship and you know there's a
lot of social issues and stuffgoing on there as well, but it's
always been a strong communitywhere big families moved in from
places like Worribinda, likethere's probably about 15 big,
strong families and they allconnected with each other
(10:22):
through the mission or throughthose early years in Rockhampton
where they were all sort ofhoused together and that sort of
stuff, and so they all lookedout for each other and they all
had each other's backs and allof us kids grew up very
connected and still connected tothis day and that's why Liza
and I sit here today as50-year-old women but still
strong in our sisterhood and youknow there's never a question
(10:42):
that if one of us needssomething it's just a phone call
away.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yeah, I think you know there was always that sense
of safety but for me, mychildhood and our childhood it
was.
You know it's happy times and Ithink, as children, you know
having that support networkaround you.
You know, culturally, you knowwe had strong Aboriginal leaders
(11:06):
that were driving change andbuilding those pathways and
advocating for us and you knowthe activism, you know with the
rights of us as Indigenouspeople.
But I think you know seeingthese, you know strong role
models.
It gave us a pathway to ensurethat you know education was a
way forward for us but at thesame time, pathway to ensure
that you know education was away forward for us but at the
(11:26):
same time, that culturalidentity, you know within our
NAIDOC week and you know having,you know, all our organisations
participate in that and seeingthat sense of pride and identity
.
So you know, even though we hadtwo pathways of, you know we
had to walk in.
You know us as Indigenouspeople and especially Aboriginal
women.
You know we had to walk in.
You know us as Indigenouspeople and especially Aboriginal
women.
(11:46):
You know, at that stage, youknow having that voice and
having that place at the tableand seeing our nannies being so
instrumental in driving that,despite the lives they lived.
Despite the lives they livedyeah, and the trauma that they
had and you know coming frommissions and you know being put,
you know you can't go and marrythis, you can't go out of that.
You had to get permission forall that type of stuff.
(12:09):
Working as domestics.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Both of our grandparents were domestics.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Domestics and farm.
You know working on the farmwith stock hands.
But I think what they did is,you know, embedded in us.
You know they could see the wayforward for us and just having
that sort of structure around usis, yeah, I think it was a
happy time and I think we couldrun freely within the community,
but knowing we had a villagearound us that was looking after
(12:33):
us.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And I think that's what's missing today.
The village is kind ofdispersed a bit and you know
where.
I often recall when I waspregnant with my daughter at 17
and I'm riding along on thehandlebars of my partner's bike
at the time and the elders wouldpull up beside me Get off that
bike, you're going to crush thatbaby's head.
So not my family, just elders.
(12:57):
We didn't have the luxury oftelling them to shut up and
don't tell me what to do.
You got cracked if you weredisrespectful, you know, and I
think some of that culturalstuff has broken down a little
bit today and the village is notas secure and proactive as it
used to be.
But I think also we got drilledinto us.
You know the pride, like Lizasays, of who we are and where we
(13:20):
come from and don't ever losesight of that.
And you know both of ourgrandparents my grandfather in
particular, my nana, was alwaysthe quiet achiever.
She was at home looking afterall the children making sure the
house was looked after.
She was kind, gentle, soft, butyou cross her and she'll go for
you.
But Pop was the politicalactivist, and so he was out with
(13:41):
Shirley Gooder setting up thelegal service and the health
service and always pushededucation for us.
I always remember mygrandfather saying to me you
know, don't forget who you areand where you come from, but you
have to be able to participatein their world.
And so, you know, I never lostsight of that and we had those
strong leaders and those strongelders, and both of them came
(14:03):
from missions where they didn'thave those opportunities.
You, you know, my grandfathercould barely read and write.
He could read a race paperthough he could read the race
yeah yeah, but you know he, heused to write letters to the
editor every week in the morningbulletin newspaper and, um,
it's not that he wrote them.
(14:23):
He would get auntie margaret orauntie kathy to do the writing
for him, or my cousin jill, andthey'd sit down and Bulletin
newspaper and it's not that hewrote them.
He would get Aunty Margaret orAunty Kathy to do the writing
for him, or my cousin Jill andthey'd sit down and do the
narrative for him and stuff.
But he would be the politicalvoice behind that.
And so you know, some of ushave grown up in families where
you don't have an opportunity tochoose what you become.
They've already set the pathfor you and you either pick it
(14:44):
up and run with it or you getlost along the way.
And you know, I kind of feellike I've picked it up and run,
but I also feel in someinstances I didn't really have a
choice in that.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Yeah, I mean we walk on the shoulders of giants and
the ancestors and you know theold people that have built that
pathway for us and I feel youknow we're the messengers, we
listen to the voices of ourcommunity and we go forth and
change and create and build.
And you know there's so much.
You know brick walls andchallenges and biases and
(15:14):
perceptions and racism anddiscrimination that we have to.
You know we're up against, butit's the resilience of who we
are and it's holding onto thatpride and that foundation and
the foundation of our childhoodand where we come from that
drives that and because we'vegot a responsibility, we've got
a cultural responsibility tokeep that going.
And I think, and that'simportant in terms of the
(15:35):
leadership, you know not onlythat you drive, or us drive,
that we all continue to do that.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
The other thing for me is I was blessed after I had
my first child and my actuallyand my second child, my two
daughters I got a job at CapeYork Land Council up in Cairns,
and so I moved my life fromRocky all the way up to Cairns.
I'd never left Rocky before soit was, like you know, a bit of
a shock.
I lived in Gladstone for acouple of years but it was like,
oh my gosh, I'm going to acompletely different location.
(16:05):
But I kind of felt okay becauseI knew that Nana's country was
close up there and I was in themiddle of Nana and Pop's country
, you know.
So I took up this job at CapeYork Land Council and all of a
sudden I'm immersed in mygrandmother's native title claim
, and so I was able to thenspend a lot of time in Cape York
with senior elders who wereconnected to my people, and even
(16:26):
not just connected from atraditional sense but connected
in a way that during those landrights movement years and the
civil rights movement years, alot of those old people from
Cape York were travelling downthe coastline to get to places
like Sydney and Canberra to takepart in the marches, and they
were pulling up in Rocky alongthe way through, and so a lot of
those old people were tellingme no, we stayed at your
(16:48):
grandparents' place.
They fed us and looked after uswhile we were on the way
through.
So, like I was saying before,you know, it wasn't just a home
to the people in Rockhampton, itwas a home and a place where
they knew they could come andhave a sleep and a feed and a
shower and move on to the nextdestination while they were
fighting for the rights of ourpeople.
And so it was a real blessingfor me to be placed up in that
(17:11):
landscape where not only was Ibeing connected to my own
traditional people, my owngrandmother's country and the
families that I needed to beconnected to, but I also was
connecting to senior elders,senior Aboriginal people in
those communities that hadconnected with my grandparents
on the way through as part oftheir journey.
That's amazing, it's.
(17:31):
It's kind of like I, we, youknow, we know how ancestors work
.
Right, they put us in placeswhere we need to be and I just I
look back on my life and Ithink, oh my gosh, I've just
been given so many opportunitiesand so many I've been put in
spaces where you just can't evendream that stuff, it just
happens.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
But I think you know not only that, you know, imagine
losing your mother and being inthat sort of trauma, but it
also comes back to your driveand wanting to do that.
You know you mentioned yourtime in Cape York and you know,
working at that land council.
You know, at that time Kate wasa single mother, so she had
three young babies.
So she'd work full time, workfull time during the day,
(18:13):
brought her own home, her firsthome.
But also, you know, put thosebabies in daycare early in the
morning, get them in theafternoon do what she had to do,
but then at night she'd bedoing, you know, doing her
degree to all hours in themorning and then up again.
It was, you know, thatcompetitive.
you know that revival and thatresilience and that
(18:33):
determination you know to getthat degree, with so many things
against us as Aboriginal womenback in those days.
Because when you look at that,it was a statistic that we
didn't even finish our educationat year 12.
And then Kate doing high school, finishing school Seven months
pregnant, seven months pregnant,so still going through that,
finishing high school and thenheading up to Cairns and then
(18:56):
finding that full-timeemployment connecting to her
grandmother's country and thenworking in that landscape with
the Noel Pearsons and those thatwere really driving that
Indigenous conversation andputting us on that map of
national justice and fightingfor that.
But then going home being asingle mother and then going
(19:17):
through a lot of other traumasthrough our life but then
studying.
You know how incredible as ayoung 20, you know early 20s
fighting that and driving thatspace.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
But again, I had that strong village around me again,
even all the way through that,right Like, liza was there with
me in Cairns, because sheactually moved to Cairns first
and I followed her.
But she's ringing me up going,barb, you've got to come up here
.
And it's like oh, go on then.
So, anyway, I ended up up in.
Cairns.
But even in that we had eachother's back.
(19:50):
You know we were a supportmechanism for each other in the
next part of our journey alongthe way.
But I had this strong villagearound me still, like I've come
from this space in Rockhamptonto a space where I was going oh
how am I going to do this withthese two little girls.
And then I had my son up therewhile I was in Cairns and you
know I'm sitting there and I'vegot my sister there my brother,
(20:12):
duga, came up and moved up therewith us as well and he was
connected to Liza's family atthe time.
So he ended up moving in withus.
Gay man, no relationship, butloved our children like his own,
you know.
So I had and I had friends thatI'd met while I'd moved to
Cairns.
I never knew these people froma bar of soap before I got to
Cairns.
So all of a sudden I've gotthis network of young women and
(20:34):
young men around me that becamerole models and carers for my
children.
I was travelling all throughCape York.
I had to actually stall mydegree for a bit because of the
travel that I was doing with theLand Council, but Liza and
Duggar would share helping withthe kids.
My sister would help with thekids.
My friends that I worked withwould look after my children
while I had to travel or studyor you know.
(20:55):
And when I started working inthe Human Rights Commission, I
had these people going.
You just go and do what youneed to do in New York.
We've got the kids, it's allgood.
I just had all these peoplearound me all the time that have
helped me grow and do what Ineeded to do.
And I really want toacknowledge at this point, when
I think about that village, whenI had my first daughter In
Rockhampton, I have had the mostamazing mother-in-laws.
(21:16):
So go back a little bit.
When I was about 12, we endedup in foster care.
So me and my little sisterended up in a foster home with
Liza's auntie and you know dadwas struggling with bringing up
two little girls and he was abricklayer so Aussie ochre man
of all mans, you know and so hereally struggled with that and
(21:37):
we've got a good relationshipnow.
But we ended up in foster homeand he wasn't very happy about
that.
So we struggled all throughthat.
We ended up in a foster homewith.
Our foster mother was myeducation liaison officer at the
time at the school, so she alsoknew who I belonged to, who my
family was, made sure we stayedconnected to the family and all
that sort of stuff.
But then I get to who my familywas, made sure we stayed
(21:59):
connected to the family and allthat sort of stuff.
But then I get Harriet, who'smy foster mum, and then I end up
in my relationship with mydaughter's father and I had the
two most amazing mother-in-laws,so my first daughter's
grandmother she would whatever Ineeded.
Like my daughter went intofamily daycare throughout the
day.
If I couldn't be there to pickher up, joanie was there to pick
her up On the weekends.
(22:20):
Friday afternoon I'd get homeon the bus with the pram and the
bag and my handbag andeverything you know.
I was about 18 years old,working in a traineeship, living
in social housing in what wecalled Sin City in Rockhampton,
and Joanie would be in mydriveway waiting to pick Letitia
up for the weekend.
Joanie would be in my drivewaywaiting to pick Letitia up for
the weekend.
She just adored hergranddaughter, and so Letitia's
grown up having this beautiful,strong Aboriginal grandmother,
(22:44):
who also loved her and nurturedher right but also gave me the
space I needed as a young womanto do the things that I needed
to do as a young woman as welland just be a young person, even
though I had this child that Iwas now responsible for, and she
is the reason why I am where Iam today, because if it wasn't
for that baby being born, Iprobably would have run amok and
(23:05):
gone right.
You know, I'm going to live mylife the way I want to live it,
but I had this child now that Iwas responsible for and I made a
choice to keep her and it waslike, well, I have to give her
everything I possibly can.
So Joanie backed me in on thatand really helped me to make
sure that I could do what Ineeded to do and have space.
But also she was playing thatcultural role of being that
(23:28):
baby's grandmother and she justadored her.
And then I had my seconddaughter and my next
mother-in-law, and both of thesewomen stayed in my life no
matter what happened with theirsons, stayed in my life and
treated me like their owndaughter.
And you know, I went touniversity.
I had Jewel, who would come toSydney to babysit my three
(23:48):
children so that I could go andwork and do my things in New
York and study and all that sortof stuff.
She you know, only one of thosechildren were her grandchildren
, but they looked after thethree of my children like their
own babies and they loved themlike their own baby.
So I've just had these amazing,amazing, beautiful, strong
Aboriginal people in my lifethat were my village and my
(24:09):
network and my foundation, and Iwouldn't be sitting here today
without them, and I wouldn't besitting here today without them.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, that answers the question I was going to ask
you and how you could possiblydo anything as a single mum with
three kids.
Because I've got help, I got alot of help, I got a partner
who's super, but I can't evenhave a shower by myself with two
kids.
Well, my first one was myshadow.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
She come and did everything with me, and so she
was with me for 18 months byherself.
But she's now the one thatcleans everything and has got
everything in order and isorganized and all that sort of
stuff, because she just followedme around as the little shadow.
So you know, in those days whenshe was first born, she
actually went down the stairs ina walkie because she, um, was
following me and I was scrubbingthe bathroom sink, the bathroom
(24:50):
bathtub.
She went straight down thestairs in the walker.
I thought, oh my god, thisbaby's going to be dead.
And I went out to check her.
She's upside down with her legsswinging in the breeze and it
was like, yeah, hello, mum Againagain.
Can you turn me up the right?
way yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
How much do you think that growing up with just that
sense of community and thatknowledge that you have that
community around you hasinfluenced both of you in the
work that you've been doing, andespecially, I suppose, you,
commissioner, with the toursthat you're doing at the moment
and chatting to people aroundthe country?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
I think the lived experience is so critical to
being able to undertake theseroles and I don't think any
Aboriginal person can come intothis role without lived
experience.
Like you know, you might havehad the best life and all of
that sort of stuff, but youstill bring lived experience to
those conversations.
But I think the livedexperience that I've had touches
on so many of the issues thatour people still face today and
(25:48):
I think I'm able to bring theexperience that I've had but
also how I've responded to someof that, and that's why I think
my focus around the agenda islooking at how do we rebuild
that village, because I was soprivileged in the village that I
had around me, even though mostof it was concerned with trauma
, most of it was concerned withloss, most of it was concerned
(26:10):
with trying to reconnect tocountry, but I had this village
that facilitated all that and Iput faith in the old people that
they were putting me where Ineeded to be.
And so I think, when I thinkabout some of those times and
you know I contemplated suicideback in those days, you know I
was dealing with so much stuffit was like I don't think I can
(26:31):
continue to do this.
So I know what it feels like tobe sitting there having those
thoughts.
I know what it feels like whenyou're in relationships that are
not going the way you want themto go.
You love that person with allyour heart, but you're
struggling with so many things.
How do you deal with that on aday-to-day basis and hold your
relationship together,especially while you're trying
to raise children?
(26:52):
And you know, both of us werecommitted to that little girl.
We loved her with all our heart.
Both of us were committed tothat little girl.
We loved her with all our heart.
We loved each other with allour heart, but we were dealing
with so much as young people.
We didn't have the supportaround us to actually deal with
those things.
We had a big support, but notthe thing, the support that we
needed at that time.
And so I look at all the thingsthat we've got today like, um,
the programs and stuff that arein place, and I think to myself,
(27:13):
okay, what?
What would have happened if Ihad that?
What would have happened if youknow?
Or how can we actually makesure that we're using those
programs to the best of ourability?
Because back when I wasexperiencing that we didn't have
that, but how do we make surethat they're working
appropriately for our people?
So I think having thoseexperiences helps me to really
(27:34):
understand what the experienceof that feels like, but also
then thinking about how do youlink that with the policy
response or the program responseor making sure that our people
are trying to access those in away that actually is beneficial
to them rather than harmful tothem.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
From my point of view .
You know you've got, you know,thank God we've got these
amazing leaders that are outthere advocating from a policy
perspective and changinglegislation and driving
conversation in the governmentspace.
You know, when you look at thegovernment system and where it
is, it's such, it's like a beast.
I mean, how do we break downthose walls and create those
(28:08):
pathways in to have a voice andget listened?
I come from a business point ofview and, being a businesswoman,
you know working on the groundand driving economic change and
you know creating employment forour people to go in spaces that
don't have a presence becausewe're put into a box.
So how do we, you know, look atthat landscape of changing that
(28:29):
and creating those pathways?
So that's my space, but havingthe conversations as communities
and being on ground.
So through the foundation andthe sphere, you know the sphere
foundation and the communityimpact programs that we drive
there for our elders and youngwomen in the justice space and
for our young children.
It's about.
You know, we've got our leadersthat are doing that and
(28:50):
advocating and doing that policywork.
But we've all got to worktogether in synergy and we've
got to come from that communityand groundwork, and I think
that's where you know we makethat impact change as well.
So it's driving that communityspace and delivering that.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So we've.
We're in 2025 and you know youtalk about growing up in
Rockhampton.
I think about my, my nana'sholding banners up.
When I was younger and beingtoo young to really I didn't
engage in the conversation.
I listened a lot to dad.
Dad tried to involve me in alot of conversations and subtly
push me in a direction to reallystart to understand the way the
world works.
But yeah, where we are now, sowhere you've grown up and what
(29:28):
you've experienced then whatfamily experience and community
experience to now, 2025, whatare your thoughts on how far
things have come and the work todo now?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I think we're in a much harder space today.
I think, even though at thattime our old people were still
living under the Act.
In some of those communitiesyou know, like in Rockhampton,
the Act was still in place in1978.
I was four years old.
People were still living undercurfew at Wollabinda in 1978.
So I think, while they had sucha harder life, the fact that
(30:00):
we've got all of these policiesand programs and funding and,
you know, systems and tools thatwe've got at our disposal, the
fact that we're still feelingthe pushback from government to
take those things up, is thefrustrating part and it
frustrates us being able torealise our rights.
So, for example, when we thinkabout the Closing the Gap space,
(30:21):
for example, the Closing theGap policy, you know we have 19
targets that all reflect a humanrights violation and we then
have tools available to us, likethe United Nations Declaration
on the Rights of IndigenousPeoples, that enable us to
(30:44):
respond to those human rightsviolations in a way that
delivers and realises our rights.
But then you have governments,on the other hand, who commit to
these targets and say, yes,we're going to commit to
reducing the amount of childrengoing into youth detention, for
example, but then we have adultcrime, adult time legislation
that goes in in Queensland thatcompletely contradicts the
target that people havecommitted to.
It puts children in jail ratherthan takes them out of jail,
(31:06):
which is what the target'strying to achieve.
And so when you've gotgovernments that are opposing
human rights or hostile to humanrights, they purposefully
withdraw their support for humanrights protections or go to
even the point of suspendinghuman rights protections in
order to admit those policiesand practices, we've got some
issues to deal with.
And so I think the advocacy andstuff that happened back in
(31:29):
those early years, with ourleadership, marching the streets
and conducting politicaladvocacy on, you know, through
our civil rights marches and allthat sort of stuff, got much
more of a better outcome theseyears that we're in now.
We've spent a lot of energytrying to engage in partnership
with governments, but thepartnership seems to be only
going one way in most areas.
And so, you know, I think thebiggest sort of challenge we
(31:53):
have at this point is embeddinghuman rights in the Australian
legal framework, because at themoment, those protections can
just be set aside when it'sconvenient for governments.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And the words, just the words human rights, and then
you look at suspending humanrights.
That's jarring, yeah, I meanthat's?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
It's like a switch.
They turn it on and off whenit's convenient.
And we don't have any.
National Human Rights Act inplace.
So there's no federalprotection or federal
requirement for states andterritories who have
responsibility for servicedelivery to comply with those
human rights when they'reimplementing those policies and
practices.
So you know, there's still alot of work to do in terms of
(32:31):
encouraging government at thefederal level to put in place
those national protections andthose national standards to
comply with human rights, butmaking sure that states and
territories in their servicedelivery.
You know you don't just signthe closing the gap targets,
just to kind of tick the box tosay, yep, we agree with those
targets, we want to look good,and then you go and put policies
in place that completelycontradict them and cause harm.
(32:53):
And you know those areas thatwe're talking about, the biggest
disproportionate impact is onthe smallest part of the
population and the part of thepopulation that experiences
oppression and discrimination atthe greatest levels and
nobody's responding to that.
I reflect on the 2023 referendumvoice referendum and I'm kind
(33:17):
of feeling that Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
have been experiencing racismfor so long.
It just became normalised to us.
We just got on with it, we justwent.
Oh yeah, here we go again.
We're getting followed aroundin the shopping centre or, oh
yeah, the police are followingus down the street, you know, oh
yeah, we're getting pulled upand asked for our ID for no
particular reason at all.
But since the referendum, thatexperience of racism has become
(33:42):
so much more emboldened andheightened and different, and
we're seeing racial hatred on adaily basis on social media
platforms, but at the same time,we're seeing an invisibility in
the national public debateabout racism.
So, while there areinternational conflicts playing
out that are raising the profileof racism for those particular
(34:03):
communities in our nationallandscape in Australia, the
racism that Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
are experiencing every singleday in this place is invisible.
It's being ignored, and theonly people that are
acknowledging that it exists isus.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I think there is an undertone of racism that existed
in the country.
But then there was a definitivesort of point where you just
knew and I can't particularlydescribe it, but the end result
was for me and my two littleones.
I'm going into public spacesnow calculating the risk to me
and my daughters.
There was a level of anxietyfor me where I'm starting to
(34:39):
like I'm doing the math.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I think Narelle also.
We probably did thatunconsciously previously and not
to the extent where we were soconscious that it's something
we're measuring before we walkout the door every day.
But even myself, you'll see alot of the promotional material
around the informing, the agendastuff and that, and I've got
(35:01):
shirts on that have Aboriginalprints and that on it, like if
I'm going to deliver in amainstream place or I've got to
walk into a mainstream landscape.
I actually consider what I haveto wear that day because I'm
like, okay, if I wear that, am Igoing to draw racism?
Am I going to draw abuse?
Am I going to draw hatred?
So I even consider what I'mgoing to wear that day because I
don't even feel free to wearthings that make me feel good
about myself anymore, and Ithink that's telling about where
(35:24):
we are in the community and inthe society in which we live at
the moment.
I think the other thing isthere's a systemic and an
institutional undertone here inthis.
And you know, while we'retalking about the experience and
exposure of racism asindividuals in our communities
in which we live and we shouldbe able to feel safe in that and
we talk about community safetyevery day, but we're not talking
(35:46):
about the safety thatAboriginal people are not
getting the right to.
But how do we, you know, makesure that, when we walk out in
the world, the systems and theinstitutions that are meant to
protect us from that racism areactually doing what they're
supposed to be doing, and at themoment they're not?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I have a look at what scenarios look like before I
even leave the house.
I mean, I'm already trying tofigure out what I need to
interrupt or intercept.
I'm scanning for the prejudicethat might come up in the day,
and that's not just necessarilywhat we're wearing.
It's about how much of ouridentity we're allowed to show
without drawing racism orjudgment.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
And even as a commissioner, in a role where I
feel empowered every day to beable to walk out in the world in
confidence, like even you talkabout your children.
The week after the referendum,when we were all kind of trying
to take a break from the impactof that vote, I don't think
mainstream Australia actuallyunderstands what the impact of
that was on Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people.
(36:40):
And.
I have faith and I try to hopethat the majority of Australians
do care about us as Aboriginaland Torres Strait Islander
people.
I think the misinformation anddisinformation that was out
there was really damaging andhelped inform what that vote
response was.
But two days after, or threedays after the vote happened,
(37:01):
you know, we were all having togo back into our jobs and back
into our spaces of work, andI've talked to my son about
sharing this story and he'sgiven me permission to do that.
But I've come home from work,he's been trying to ring me
throughout the day.
I couldn't take the callsbecause I was in meetings and so
when I got home I rang him backand I said what's going on?
And he said Mum, I don't knowhow to do this.
(37:23):
And I said what do you mean?
He said I work in anon-Indigenous organisation.
How do I walk into that spaceevery day knowing that probably
they all voted against me, evenexisting?
And this is my son, the son ofthe social justice commissioner,
ringing me, a boy who's hadthat strong foundation and
everything, and telling me thathe doesn't know how to walk in
the world anymore because hedoesn't know who accepts him or
(37:47):
who is happy for him to be thereor not, and he had a baby
coming.
He's got a little boy now who'sjust turned one.
I've got to go home tonight forhis birthday party.
But I said to my boy whathappened with me when I had you
fellas is now where you'resitting.
You don't have the luxury ofsitting down and ignoring what
the world is throwing at you,because you now have a baby that
(38:09):
you have to prepare to walk inthis world, and so you don't
have the luxury to sit down androll over here.
You've got to get up.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
I feel so fortunate to be able to have these types
of conversations I mean, there'sso much learning that I get to
be a part of just listening tothese yarns and that's also why
we've taken so much time tocreate the space at Ember
Connect is because we want womento be able to show up in all of
their magnificence, Like thework that you do.
(38:38):
I just think you have got tohave 500 elders and ancestors
walking with you because it'ssuch a massive, massive job.
There's lots of thingshappening around the world at
the moment that are justexhausting.
So I think the weight and theresponsibility and the strength
that it takes is extraordinaryand there's no doubt that you
(39:00):
have that.
And I know that you're not justcarrying your own story.
I know that you're carrying somany stories with you and
they're the voices of our mob.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I feel the ancestors with me.
I feel that spirit all the time.
And it's funny because when Ido feel down or feel like I'm
struggling with the load that wecarry and it's not just me,
it's all of us carry that loadbut being the front face of that
in the public sort of politicalspace and in a position where
people rely on me to try to makechange, that lifts them out of
(39:31):
the circumstances that they'rein.
It's funny because when I dofeel that weight or when I do
feel the heaviness, or when I'mnot coping and don't get me
wrong I'll go home and cry Likewe had a circumstance last night
.
I just went home, I had to justcry, but I get the phone call.
My auntie, my mum's sister,rings me out of the blue.
Hey, bub, just checking in.
(39:51):
It's almost like they know whenit's the right time to ring.
You know, or I'll get a messagefrom Aunty Bonnie Robertson.
It's funny because I'll befeeling this pressure and all of
a sudden the phone will beepand I open the thing up and I
get this big, beautiful messagefrom Aunty Bonnie or Aunty
Jackie Huggins or Mikura.
You know, like they just comeat the right time.
(40:12):
It's like the old people haveput me in their thoughts and all
of a sudden I'm getting thesebeautiful messages of support,
of love, of backing.
You're doing the right thing,bub.
Keep going, we're with you, youknow.
So it's just amazing how mostnon-Indigenous people listening
to this won't even understandthis, but just how influential
(40:32):
and how great that spirit is inour culture and they're just
always with us and I neverquestion that.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I might be knowing my tears.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
No, I'm trying not to sniff in the microphone I know
I was doing that too, Sorry.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Just like as a Wajula , you know, it's a privilege to
sit back and just listen to youguys talk but it's heartbreaking
you know, like knowing, thatyeah, that there are a lot of
people out there in my communitywho, for whatever reason,
through ignorance or justprivilege just couldn't see what
it meant to vote.
(41:09):
No, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Yeah, but they also.
You know, I get that, but Ialso think the campaigns were so
strong, yeah, and so there wasa lot of Australians on the
fence that didn't know how tovote, definitely, and when, you
know, even our own people werenot necessarily agreeing with
where the referendum went.
Our non-indigenous allies, orpeople that were keen to do the
(41:32):
right thing, didn't know whichway to.
So, you know, I think, as wemove forward on this, we have to
take responsibility for givingthem the guidance they need and
not letting them succumb to thenoise that's happening in the
background.
They're seeking guidance fromus, but we've done so much work
towards this, so much work.
We've had generations of peopleworking on this.
(41:54):
For it to fall over the way itdid was devastating for so many
aboriginal and non-aboriginalpeople and torres strait
islander people.
But got to keep going.
And you know when I go aroundthe country narelle, you asked
me about my, my tour you knowI've.
I've done most states andterritories now, um, I'm just
finishing here in perth for wa.
I've got northern territory intasmania to do and the torres
(42:17):
stra.
So as I move around the country,I get people that come into the
room and they want to vent andexpress their frustration with
the world that they're currentlyliving in and the hurt and the
harm that they're exposed to.
But by the time they leave thatroom they're ready to go again.
And I'm not saying that'sbecause of me.
I'm saying that's because ofour collective spirit when we
(42:38):
come into those places and thosespaces and we lift each other
and we know that we've got eachother's back.
And how do we bring ourcommunities back together in the
way that we talked aboutearlier when our old people were
leading those conversations?
How do we bring that culturalauthority back to the table?
How do we bring the senioreldership that I get text
messages from that support meand help me take the next step
(43:01):
every day?
You know, I think we've got torebuild our villages and we can
only do that by coming togetherand having these conversations,
not running each other down, notchallenging each other on the
front page of the Australiannewspaper, not undermining the
agenda and the priorities thatwe're all trying to work towards
.
And if you don't agree withthem, fine, yeah, come and have
that conversation with us.
(43:22):
Don't put our dirty laundry outthere for everyone else to use
it against us.
So I think, you know, we've gota bit of work to do around
rebuilding our villages andwe've got to have and create the
spaces for us to do that.
And that's what I found in oursessions, in our consults, in
the informing the agenda, asmuch as it's about trying to
give me some insight into thepriorities that people feel like
(43:43):
need to be taken forward.
For me it's creating spaces forour people to come together and
talk about their exposure andexperience and lifting each
other out of that.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
And I think, any opportunity where we're able to,
if anyone's coming to speakabout the things that are
hurting and harming in a really,really safe place, with
somebody that really cares andhas the power to move that voice
on, I mean, that's reallyhealing in itself, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
I don't know how much power I've got Narelle, but I'm
trying.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
But I think, just your authenticity with taking
care that you've got goingthrough across the country and,
as I said earlier, my eyeballswould be hanging out.
Mine are Even all the thingsthat you've got.
But, yeah, I think that senseof coming together and then
collective that you talked aboutand that energy, there's some
healing in that, I think too.
Is there anything thatsurprised you about the
(44:32):
conversations that you've hadaround the country?
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Not really Youth.
Justice has been something thathas been raised in every single
community and you know, nomatter how much we engage, no
matter how much we try to putevidence before governments and
stuff like that, we're notgetting the response we need,
and so we've got to work aroundthat.
And part of that is the humanrights protections, because
they're able to oppress and denythose human rights at the
(44:58):
stroke of a pen.
The second thing that's comingout is the exposure to racism
and, no surprise again, thesecond thing that's coming out
is the exposure to racism and nosurprise again.
Except, as I said before, I'mstarting to see a different
level of exposure and adifferent reaction and response
from our people.
In that, as I said earlier, Ikind of feel like in the lead-up
(45:18):
to the referendum or the yearsbefore, we just got up every day
and dealt with racism becausewe've been exposed to it for so
long, it's become normalized sowe just knew what to do with it.
But now, because it's soemboldened and so blatant and so
in our faces, even though therest of the world chooses to not
see it, um, our people aredealing with it in a very
different way and they'reexposed to harm that I don't
(45:40):
think we've experienced up untilthis point.
So there's's that.
But then there's all the otherthings, like you know the
closing the gap stuff, the lackof trust in government, the need
for transformative change inthe government systems, systemic
reform, but also things likehousing.
There's a housing crisis in thiscountry.
Our people are not immune tothat.
It's a little bit hidden insome communities because our
(46:04):
caring cultural perspectivesmean that.
Well, like Liza and I grew upin Rockhampton, where there was
a lot of homelessness orAboriginal people sleeping on
the streets In some of thesecommunities that I've been to,
particularly over this side.
People care for their people,so they're not necessarily on
the street, they're couchsurfing.
But it also means that we'vegot overcrowded homes where
(46:26):
children and young people arebeing exposed to rheumatic heart
disease, for example, becausewe've got so many people living
in the same space, you can'tkeep the place clean, you can't
keep the hygiene in the space,you can't keep the germs away.
Covid spreads through our homes, like you wouldn't believe,
because there's so many of usneeding to be accommodated, so
(46:48):
there's so many of us needing tobe accommodated.
So there's those kind ofchallenges, probably the other
thing that I've heard, which isone surprise.
Actually, everything else ispretty general and expected.
But when I went through NewSouth Wales we went to a little
place called Ningin and it's atiny little community but
they're experiencing an uptickin the exposure to cancer and
that community in particular.
A lot of the people are workingin pastoral industry or on
(47:09):
farming properties exposure torunoff from pesticides, but also
skin cancers and stuff likethat.
So Ningen is there.
They've got no permanentdoctors in the township, so
they've got to wait for doctorsto come in.
They've got no access tospecialist services, so the
ability to diagnose is not thereearly enough and so by the time
they get diagnosed and stufflike that, it's too late.
(47:31):
Then we go to Moree completelydifferent town, you know, a big
township, lots of services, lotsof access, 100 Aboriginal
deaths to cancer in 12 months,and so that's been a bit
concerning, and the Moreecommunity have been trying to
raise that for a little while aswell and not necessarily
getting any response to that.
So that's something that I doreally want to follow up on and
(47:54):
look into because, yeah, I'm notsure what is causing that
uptick.
And you know, we also knowthrough the evidence that things
like racism and stress andtrauma and harm cause sickness
in our bodies and in our minds.
So is these uptick in cancerthat our people are experiencing
a result of the harm that we'reexposed to every day?
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's also going to affect whether or not you're
going to walk into a place andseek help when you need to.
It's like an Erin Brockovichmovie and it's right on our
doorstep with our own people.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
And you know the Ningen example isn't just
Aboriginal people either it's.
You know these communities havebeen dealing with contaminated
water and stuff like that forgenerations.
But the almighty dollar rulesthe roost.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
All right, Unfortunately we're out of time
and I know you've got a flightto catch and we've packed a
whole lot into this yarn.
But before you go, if you couldtell the women of the Ember
Connect Network anything at all,what would it be?
I mean no pressure, you don'tneed a final mic drop moment of
the series, but if there's onething that you would want them
to hear or remember or carrywith them, what would it be?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
I think where I want to go with that question is more
around being a young mum andhaving a baby at 17 and just not
allowing things like that andstuff that comes with that too.
You know, like Liza alluded to,there was a lot of other trauma
and stuff that I wasexperiencing during those early
(49:23):
years, but not letting it defineyou, I think, as young women,
and I hate the word resilience Idon't like the word resilience
and stuff that I wasexperiencing during those early
years, but not letting it defineyou, I think, as young women,
and I hate the word resilience.
I don't like the wordresilience because I feel like
governments rely on us beingresilient in order to abrogate
their responsibilities.
We are resilient because wehave had to be resilient, we've
had no choice in that, but ourresilience is ours to rely on,
(49:48):
to step up and do what we needto do in our lives, and I think
that is the point for me that Iwant to share with our young
women out there today, and ourolder women too.
Your resilience is not anybodyelse's, it's yours.
Take full advantage of yourresilience to get the
achievement of the goals thatyou set for yourself and don't
(50:08):
let anybody else tell you thatyou can't, and don't let
anything that is set to hold youback.
Hold you back.
Do what you need to do.
There's plenty of people outthere willing to support you and
I had that experience firsthand.
So draw on it.
Don't be shamed to ask for help.
I don't know.
Liza, I love it.
Speaker 5 (50:25):
I mean, it's exactly the same, sister, what you said.
I think you know staying trueto yourself, being connected to
your family, your community, toyour elders, keeping true to
your culture, but also, you know, knowing your dreams and your
goals.
But I always used to think, ifit is to be, it's up to me.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
So you go and create that pathway and find that
journey and live your dream yeahand personally you know, once
again I've walked away from thisyoung, having benefited in ways
that I just wouldn't expectit's been enlightening, it's
grounding, and it's always sofull of wisdom to be speaking to
amazing women like you both.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
so thank you so much and I'm sure, like so many other
women listening, I'm inspiredto keep going and stay connected
and to keep tuning up forthings that matter.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
You too, and thank you for Ember Connect for you
know, raising the voices ofFirst Nations women, and for
backing us in, and it's allabout supporting each other
right.
So thank you to Ember Connectas well.
Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I get really mushy and emotional at times like this
when I have to say goodbye.
So I know I'm not the only onesending love and light with you
both as you travel and continuethis important work.
I mean, you're both carrying somuch strength and grace and
we're all walking beside you.
In spirit, ember Connect mobwill be cheering, cheering you
on from afar, and we'll bereally looking forward to
keeping up with your journey asthey both unfold.
So love you guys.
Biggest mob.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connects membersand allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(52:15):
impact of the Ember Connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion withus, and to find out more about
Ember Connect, visitemberconnectcomau.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
I'm still going to go .
Look for the taxi driver.
They're driving around, slumpedin their seat.
Just all you can see is the topof someone's head and a hand on
the steering wheel.
They're just trying to keep alow profile.
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, I'm Narelle Henry .
I'm a Noongar woman living andworking over here on Noongar
Country.
Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I ampossibly the whitest woman in
Australia also living on Noongarcountry, I've got to tell you
this yarn is one of thosespecial ones, a kind that really
stays with you for a reallylong time.
(00:53):
For me it was really powerful,it was heartfelt and it quite
simply is a conversation aboutgrowing up on country, the
strength of family and community, and how those early
experiences shape the way weshow up in the world today.
There's wisdom here, there'slaughter the kind that makes
your belly ache a little bit andthen there are a few quiet,
emotional moments too.
Honestly, it was one of thosechats where you walk away
(01:15):
feeling a little more groundedand a whole lot more inspired.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Hi, my name's Katie Kiss.
I'm the Aboriginal and TorresStrait Islander Social Justice
Commissioner.
I work at the Human RightsCommission of Australia and I
was born and bred on the landsof the Dharambal people in
Rockhampton.
I now live in Brisbane onQuandamooka country on the
bayside.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Hi, I'm Liza Fraser-Gooden-Maguire.
I am a proud Bidjara GungalooEamon woman was born on the
lands of the Dharambal Nation,now living in Wodgup Boodja, my
home away from home.
I am a businesswoman, adirector, a co-chair and also a
director in a charitablefoundation.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, we've got a bit of a bonus today, so informing
your agenda for the next coupleof years.
You've done some massivetravels around and we've also
hijacked Liza's day, so thanksfor joining us, liza as well.
So we'll just sit and have ayarn, because I want to know all
about how you know each other.
So you've mentioned Rocky andQueensland, so how do you guys
(02:23):
even know each other?
Because, liza, I only met youlast week.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yes, Well, I suppose Liza and I are both from
Rockhampton, so I'm a KandubiriWidi woman.
My family are from NorthQueensland.
My grandfather's country isaround Bowen Basin, between
Collinsville and Nebo.
My grandmother's country iscentral Cape York around Cowan.
But they got moved to PalmIsland.
My mother was born there.
(02:47):
They got moved down toRockhampton to build down to
Woorabinda, actually to buildthe mission there when they were
at the back end of World War IIwhen they were bringing all the
people from Hopevale down.
So they moved all those mobfrom the Hopevale mission down
to Woorabinda.
And so they moved Pop from PalmIsland to Worribinda because he
had carpentry skills.
So they took him down to buildthe houses for the people at
(03:09):
Worribinda because the missionwas fairly new at that stage,
and so they were only there forabout a year and then they moved
into Rockhampton.
So my mother was born at PalmIsland.
There was five of the children,five of the 11 born on Palm
Island and then when they got toRockhampton or Borabinda, uncle
Winnie was born there first andthen they had the next children
in Rockhampton.
So that's how we kind of landedin Rocky and then I was born in
(03:32):
Rockhampton.
Mum met my dad there and that'show we ended up there on
Darenball Country.
So.
But, liza, her family was inthere and she can tell you about
that.
But at about 10 years old, youknow bingo halls and all that
sort of stuff.
You know our grandparents usedto go to bingo.
Nana Shirley and my Nana, nanaKatie, was a big bingo fan.
(03:53):
So they used to go to the bingoand all that sort of stuff and
all of us kids would go therelooking for money from the
grandparents.
So we connected as kids in thecommunity and you know, rocky,
in those days we were ridingaround on bikes and going to the
Southside Pool every weekendand so we all connected as a
community of young people andchildren and we've all stayed
connected over the years.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Yeah, I mean I'm a proud Bidjara Gungaloo Eman
woman.
So I mean the same story.
My grandmother they were all inthat war of intermission, nan
was and Grandad were one of thefirst to have a first social
housing.
So that took them intoRockhampton and to date that 110
(04:32):
West Street is still quite asignificant home base for all of
us and that's where we grew upin being a part of the community
and sitting around the tableand you know watching all our
grandparents lead the way indriving, you know organisational
change for our community interms of housing, legal aid and
(04:54):
health, in terms of buildingthat for us.
So I guess our connection in,yeah, coming together and being
a part of that family and youknow Kate mentioned, you know
one of her agendas is drivingand building that village and
back in those old days it wasall about village and all being
around each other and in ourcommunity and raising, you know
(05:17):
strong people, strong communityand maintaining that strong
culture and who we are and Iguess that's taken the journey
of where we both sit as strongAboriginal women.
You know driving and buildingand advocating you know for our
communities in the positionsthat we sit, as you know, kate
being our Aboriginal TorresStrait Islander Justice, social
(05:42):
Commissioner and I guess my partin being, you know, sitting in
the different spaces, drivingeconomic development and
economic change for our peopleas a businesswoman, it's really
interesting when Liza talksabout the households in
Rockhampton, because there wasRocky is made up divided by the
Fitzroy River, the big brownsnake, and it's on Drambool
(06:05):
country.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
But Liza's family's house was on the south side of
Rockhampton and my family'shouse was on the north side of
Rockhampton and Liza talks aboutNana Shirley's house being
social housing.
But my grandparents actuallyowned the first Aboriginal-owned
home in Rockhampton at 252 GrubStreet.
So our families all grew upthere and, like the Northside
(06:26):
house, all the Northside kidswould go to our family's home
there.
So when people were off playingcards and all that sort of
stuff all the kids would comethere for a feed.
Nana always had a big pot ofstew on the stove and loaves of
bread and bottles of cordial onthe table.
So all the mob used to comethere and they knew they had a
feed.
They knew they had a bed ifthey needed it, even though we
had a big packed house.
But that was the north sidehouse and Nana Shirley's, liza's
(06:48):
grandmother, was the south sidehouse.
But my mum and dad bought ahome in South Rockhampton so we
grew up on south side and soLiza's family home, or Nana
Shirley's place, was the housethat we hung out at and that's
how we kind of grew up knowingeach other and riding around and
having exposure to these oldpeople and all that sort of
(07:09):
stuff.
So yeah it was.
It was a privileged childhood inthat regard and we had access
to strong, safe spaces where youknow, if we didn't have that at
home or we had to go away fromhome for any reason, we had
those other places that we couldgo to.
My mum passed when I was sixyears old and my dad's
non-Indigenous, and so he hadtwo little Aboriginal girls that
(07:32):
he had to try and work out howto bring up in this world.
And so you know, I was veryprivileged to have people like
Nana Shirley and other elders inthe Rockhampton community that
looked out for me, knowing thatmy mum had passed.
But everyone knew who webelonged to, everyone knew who
the kids belonged to, who thefamilies came from, and so they
(07:52):
looked out for all the kids andmy sister and I my little sister
Kerry and I were veryprivileged that, even though we
didn't have our mum, we had manymums looking out for us in that
community, many dads lookingout for us in that community,
and they helped us to maintainthat cultural connection too,
with our mum being around us andkept us connected to our
(08:13):
grandparents as well on thenorth side of Rockhampton.
So we used to go down to Bingoat Scotia Place and Municipal
Theatre and ride our bikes downthere and Nana would come across
from north side and go to thebingo and we'd all connect with
her there.
So we're able to maintain ourconnection to our community
through that, even though we hadmum gone and a non-Indigenous
father who didn't really knowhow to keep us in our space
(08:34):
properly.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, and what was it like?
I've only been to Queensland acouple of times, but in terms of
, you know, rockhampton, growingup as Aboriginal girls and the
beef capital of Australia, beefcapital.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
On the topic of Capcom.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
What was it like for Aboriginal people in Rocky when
you guys were growing up?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
It was interesting because there was a lot of
racism around us.
Like you know, we used to go tothe Southside Pool every
weekend and there were storiesabout the Ku Klux Klan being in
Rockhampton at the time, and uskids would come from the pool
making our way home and any timewe saw a white van we'd all run
for cover.
We'd all go and duck into thenearest house on the street with
(09:17):
the garden bed so we could hidebehind the garden so that this
white van wouldn't pick us up.
I don't know to this daywhether that was just our oldies
trying to scare us or whetherthere was actually people going
around picking up kids off thestreet, because there was a fair
bit of racism in Rocky as.
I mentioned the beef capital ofthe world.
We had a lot of farmers andpastoralists and cow cockies and
(09:39):
stuff hanging around in town,but a lot of mining mob would
come into Rockhampton as well.
It was a central place to movethrough.
So I don't know whether it wasa sense of the oldies trying to
you know when they talk aboutJundity going to get you and all
that sort of stuff.
I don't know whether it wasthat or whether there was actual
cause for us to be worriedabout some of those practices
that were going on.
(10:00):
But you know, even to this dayRocky still has a lot of
exposure to racism in thattownship and you know there's a
lot of social issues and stuffgoing on there as well, but it's
always been a strong communitywhere big families moved in from
places like Worribinda, likethere's probably about 15 big,
strong families and they allconnected with each other
(10:22):
through the mission or throughthose early years in Rockhampton
where they were all sort ofhoused together and that sort of
stuff, and so they all lookedout for each other and they all
had each other's backs and allof us kids grew up very
connected and still connected tothis day and that's why Liza
and I sit here today as50-year-old women but still
strong in our sisterhood and youknow there's never a question
(10:42):
that if one of us needssomething it's just a phone call
away.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yeah, I think you know there was always that sense
of safety but for me, mychildhood and our childhood it
was.
You know it's happy times and Ithink, as children, you know
having that support networkaround you.
You know, culturally, you knowwe had strong Aboriginal leaders
(11:06):
that were driving change andbuilding those pathways and
advocating for us and you knowthe activism, you know with the
rights of us as Indigenouspeople.
But I think you know seeingthese, you know strong role
models.
It gave us a pathway to ensurethat you know education was a
way forward for us but at thesame time, pathway to ensure
that you know education was away forward for us but at the
(11:26):
same time, that culturalidentity, you know within our
NAIDOC week and you know having,you know, all our organisations
participate in that and seeingthat sense of pride and identity
.
So you know, even though we hadtwo pathways of, you know we
had to walk in.
You know us as Indigenouspeople and especially Aboriginal
women.
You know we had to walk in.
You know us as Indigenouspeople and especially Aboriginal
women.
(11:46):
You know, at that stage, youknow having that voice and
having that place at the tableand seeing our nannies being so
instrumental in driving that,despite the lives they lived.
Despite the lives they livedyeah, and the trauma that they
had and you know coming frommissions and you know being put,
you know you can't go and marrythis, you can't go out of that.
You had to get permission forall that type of stuff.
(12:09):
Working as domestics.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Both of our grandparents were domestics.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Domestics and farm.
You know working on the farmwith stock hands.
But I think what they did is,you know, embedded in us.
You know they could see the wayforward for us and just having
that sort of structure around usis, yeah, I think it was a
happy time and I think we couldrun freely within the community,
but knowing we had a villagearound us that was looking after
(12:33):
us.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And I think that's what's missing today.
The village is kind ofdispersed a bit and you know
where.
I often recall when I waspregnant with my daughter at 17
and I'm riding along on thehandlebars of my partner's bike
at the time and the elders wouldpull up beside me Get off that
bike, you're going to crush thatbaby's head.
So not my family, just elders.
(12:57):
We didn't have the luxury oftelling them to shut up and
don't tell me what to do.
You got cracked if you weredisrespectful, you know, and I
think some of that culturalstuff has broken down a little
bit today and the village is notas secure and proactive as it
used to be.
But I think also we got drilledinto us.
You know the pride, like Lizasays, of who we are and where we
(13:20):
come from and don't ever losesight of that.
And you know both of ourgrandparents my grandfather in
particular, my nana, was alwaysthe quiet achiever.
She was at home looking afterall the children making sure the
house was looked after.
She was kind, gentle, soft, butyou cross her and she'll go for
you.
But Pop was the politicalactivist, and so he was out with
(13:41):
Shirley Gooder setting up thelegal service and the health
service and always pushededucation for us.
I always remember mygrandfather saying to me you
know, don't forget who you areand where you come from, but you
have to be able to participatein their world.
And so, you know, I never lostsight of that and we had those
strong leaders and those strongelders, and both of them came
(14:03):
from missions where they didn'thave those opportunities.
You, you know, my grandfathercould barely read and write.
He could read a race paperthough he could read the race
yeah yeah, but you know he, heused to write letters to the
editor every week in the morningbulletin newspaper and, um,
it's not that he wrote them.
(14:23):
He would get auntie margaret orauntie kathy to do the writing
for him, or my cousin jill, andthey'd sit down and Bulletin
newspaper and it's not that hewrote them.
He would get Aunty Margaret orAunty Kathy to do the writing
for him, or my cousin Jill andthey'd sit down and do the
narrative for him and stuff.
But he would be the politicalvoice behind that.
And so you know, some of ushave grown up in families where
you don't have an opportunity tochoose what you become.
They've already set the pathfor you and you either pick it
(14:44):
up and run with it or you getlost along the way.
And you know, I kind of feellike I've picked it up and run,
but I also feel in someinstances I didn't really have a
choice in that.
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Yeah, I mean we walk on the shoulders of giants and
the ancestors and you know theold people that have built that
pathway for us and I feel youknow we're the messengers, we
listen to the voices of ourcommunity and we go forth and
change and create and build.
And you know there's so much.
You know brick walls andchallenges and biases and
(15:14):
perceptions and racism anddiscrimination that we have to.
You know we're up against, butit's the resilience of who we
are and it's holding onto thatpride and that foundation and
the foundation of our childhoodand where we come from that
drives that and because we'vegot a responsibility, we've got
a cultural responsibility tokeep that going.
And I think, and that'simportant in terms of the
(15:35):
leadership, you know not onlythat you drive, or us drive,
that we all continue to do that.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
The other thing for me is I was blessed after I had
my first child and my actuallyand my second child, my two
daughters I got a job at CapeYork Land Council up in Cairns,
and so I moved my life fromRocky all the way up to Cairns.
I'd never left Rocky before soit was, like you know, a bit of
a shock.
I lived in Gladstone for acouple of years but it was like,
oh my gosh, I'm going to acompletely different location.
(16:05):
But I kind of felt okay becauseI knew that Nana's country was
close up there and I was in themiddle of Nana and Pop's country
, you know.
So I took up this job at CapeYork Land Council and all of a
sudden I'm immersed in mygrandmother's native title claim
, and so I was able to thenspend a lot of time in Cape York
with senior elders who wereconnected to my people, and even
(16:26):
not just connected from atraditional sense but connected
in a way that during those landrights movement years and the
civil rights movement years, alot of those old people from
Cape York were travelling downthe coastline to get to places
like Sydney and Canberra to takepart in the marches, and they
were pulling up in Rocky alongthe way through, and so a lot of
those old people were tellingme no, we stayed at your
(16:48):
grandparents' place.
They fed us and looked after uswhile we were on the way
through.
So, like I was saying before,you know, it wasn't just a home
to the people in Rockhampton, itwas a home and a place where
they knew they could come andhave a sleep and a feed and a
shower and move on to the nextdestination while they were
fighting for the rights of ourpeople.
And so it was a real blessingfor me to be placed up in that
(17:11):
landscape where not only was Ibeing connected to my own
traditional people, my owngrandmother's country and the
families that I needed to beconnected to, but I also was
connecting to senior elders,senior Aboriginal people in
those communities that hadconnected with my grandparents
on the way through as part oftheir journey.
That's amazing, it's.
(17:31):
It's kind of like I, we, youknow, we know how ancestors work
.
Right, they put us in placeswhere we need to be and I just I
look back on my life and Ithink, oh my gosh, I've just
been given so many opportunitiesand so many I've been put in
spaces where you just can't evendream that stuff, it just
happens.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
But I think you know not only that, you know, imagine
losing your mother and being inthat sort of trauma, but it
also comes back to your driveand wanting to do that.
You know you mentioned yourtime in Cape York and you know,
working at that land council.
You know, at that time Kate wasa single mother, so she had
three young babies.
So she'd work full time, workfull time during the day,
(18:13):
brought her own home, her firsthome.
But also, you know, put thosebabies in daycare early in the
morning, get them in theafternoon do what she had to do,
but then at night she'd bedoing, you know, doing her
degree to all hours in themorning and then up again.
It was, you know, thatcompetitive.
you know that revival and thatresilience and that
(18:33):
determination you know to getthat degree, with so many things
against us as Aboriginal womenback in those days.
Because when you look at that,it was a statistic that we
didn't even finish our educationat year 12.
And then Kate doing high school, finishing school Seven months
pregnant, seven months pregnant,so still going through that,
finishing high school and thenheading up to Cairns and then
(18:56):
finding that full-timeemployment connecting to her
grandmother's country and thenworking in that landscape with
the Noel Pearsons and those thatwere really driving that
Indigenous conversation andputting us on that map of
national justice and fightingfor that.
But then going home being asingle mother and then going
(19:17):
through a lot of other traumasthrough our life but then
studying.
You know how incredible as ayoung 20, you know early 20s
fighting that and driving thatspace.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
But again, I had that strong village around me again,
even all the way through that,right Like, liza was there with
me in Cairns, because sheactually moved to Cairns first
and I followed her.
But she's ringing me up going,barb, you've got to come up here
.
And it's like oh, go on then.
So, anyway, I ended up up in.
Cairns.
But even in that we had eachother's back.
(19:50):
You know we were a supportmechanism for each other in the
next part of our journey alongthe way.
But I had this strong villagearound me still, like I've come
from this space in Rockhamptonto a space where I was going oh
how am I going to do this withthese two little girls.
And then I had my son up therewhile I was in Cairns and you
know I'm sitting there and I'vegot my sister there my brother,
(20:12):
duga, came up and moved up therewith us as well and he was
connected to Liza's family atthe time.
So he ended up moving in withus.
Gay man, no relationship, butloved our children like his own,
you know.
So I had and I had friends thatI'd met while I'd moved to
Cairns.
I never knew these people froma bar of soap before I got to
Cairns.
So all of a sudden I've gotthis network of young women and
(20:34):
young men around me that becamerole models and carers for my
children.
I was travelling all throughCape York.
I had to actually stall mydegree for a bit because of the
travel that I was doing with theLand Council, but Liza and
Duggar would share helping withthe kids.
My sister would help with thekids.
My friends that I worked withwould look after my children
while I had to travel or studyor you know.
(20:55):
And when I started working inthe Human Rights Commission, I
had these people going.
You just go and do what youneed to do in New York.
We've got the kids, it's allgood.
I just had all these peoplearound me all the time that have
helped me grow and do what Ineeded to do.
And I really want toacknowledge at this point, when
I think about that village, whenI had my first daughter In
Rockhampton, I have had the mostamazing mother-in-laws.
(21:16):
So go back a little bit.
When I was about 12, we endedup in foster care.
So me and my little sisterended up in a foster home with
Liza's auntie and you know dadwas struggling with bringing up
two little girls and he was abricklayer so Aussie ochre man
of all mans, you know and so hereally struggled with that and
(21:37):
we've got a good relationshipnow.
But we ended up in foster homeand he wasn't very happy about
that.
So we struggled all throughthat.
We ended up in a foster homewith.
Our foster mother was myeducation liaison officer at the
time at the school, so she alsoknew who I belonged to, who my
family was, made sure we stayedconnected to the family and all
that sort of stuff.
But then I get to who my familywas, made sure we stayed
(21:59):
connected to the family and allthat sort of stuff.
But then I get Harriet, who'smy foster mum, and then I end up
in my relationship with mydaughter's father and I had the
two most amazing mother-in-laws,so my first daughter's
grandmother she would whatever Ineeded.
Like my daughter went intofamily daycare throughout the
day.
If I couldn't be there to pickher up, joanie was there to pick
her up On the weekends.
(22:20):
Friday afternoon I'd get homeon the bus with the pram and the
bag and my handbag andeverything you know.
I was about 18 years old,working in a traineeship, living
in social housing in what wecalled Sin City in Rockhampton,
and Joanie would be in mydriveway waiting to pick Letitia
up for the weekend.
Joanie would be in my drivewaywaiting to pick Letitia up for
the weekend.
She just adored hergranddaughter, and so Letitia's
grown up having this beautiful,strong Aboriginal grandmother,
(22:44):
who also loved her and nurturedher right but also gave me the
space I needed as a young womanto do the things that I needed
to do as a young woman as welland just be a young person, even
though I had this child that Iwas now responsible for, and she
is the reason why I am where Iam today, because if it wasn't
for that baby being born, Iprobably would have run amok and
(23:05):
gone right.
You know, I'm going to live mylife the way I want to live it,
but I had this child now that Iwas responsible for and I made a
choice to keep her and it waslike, well, I have to give her
everything I possibly can.
So Joanie backed me in on thatand really helped me to make
sure that I could do what Ineeded to do and have space.
But also she was playing thatcultural role of being that
(23:28):
baby's grandmother and she justadored her.
And then I had my seconddaughter and my next
mother-in-law, and both of thesewomen stayed in my life no
matter what happened with theirsons, stayed in my life and
treated me like their owndaughter.
And you know, I went touniversity.
I had Jewel, who would come toSydney to babysit my three
(23:48):
children so that I could go andwork and do my things in New
York and study and all that sortof stuff.
She you know, only one of thosechildren were her grandchildren
, but they looked after thethree of my children like their
own babies and they loved themlike their own baby.
So I've just had these amazing,amazing, beautiful, strong
Aboriginal people in my lifethat were my village and my
(24:09):
network and my foundation, and Iwouldn't be sitting here today
without them, and I wouldn't besitting here today without them.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Well, that answers the question I was going to ask
you and how you could possiblydo anything as a single mum with
three kids.
Because I've got help, I got alot of help, I got a partner
who's super, but I can't evenhave a shower by myself with two
kids.
Well, my first one was myshadow.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
She come and did everything with me, and so she
was with me for 18 months byherself.
But she's now the one thatcleans everything and has got
everything in order and isorganized and all that sort of
stuff, because she just followedme around as the little shadow.
So you know, in those days whenshe was first born, she
actually went down the stairs ina walkie because she, um, was
following me and I was scrubbingthe bathroom sink, the bathroom
(24:50):
bathtub.
She went straight down thestairs in the walker.
I thought, oh my god, thisbaby's going to be dead.
And I went out to check her.
She's upside down with her legsswinging in the breeze and it
was like, yeah, hello, mum Againagain.
Can you turn me up the right?
way yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
How much do you think that growing up with just that
sense of community and thatknowledge that you have that
community around you hasinfluenced both of you in the
work that you've been doing, andespecially, I suppose, you,
commissioner, with the toursthat you're doing at the moment
and chatting to people aroundthe country?
Speaker 4 (25:25):
I think the lived experience is so critical to
being able to undertake theseroles and I don't think any
Aboriginal person can come intothis role without lived
experience.
Like you know, you might havehad the best life and all of
that sort of stuff, but youstill bring lived experience to
those conversations.
But I think the livedexperience that I've had touches
on so many of the issues thatour people still face today and
(25:48):
I think I'm able to bring theexperience that I've had but
also how I've responded to someof that, and that's why I think
my focus around the agenda islooking at how do we rebuild
that village, because I was soprivileged in the village that I
had around me, even though mostof it was concerned with trauma
, most of it was concerned withloss, most of it was concerned
(26:10):
with trying to reconnect tocountry, but I had this village
that facilitated all that and Iput faith in the old people that
they were putting me where Ineeded to be.
And so I think, when I thinkabout some of those times and
you know I contemplated suicideback in those days, you know I
was dealing with so much stuffit was like I don't think I can
(26:31):
continue to do this.
So I know what it feels like tobe sitting there having those
thoughts.
I know what it feels like whenyou're in relationships that are
not going the way you want themto go.
You love that person with allyour heart, but you're
struggling with so many things.
How do you deal with that on aday-to-day basis and hold your
relationship together,especially while you're trying
to raise children?
(26:52):
And you know, both of us werecommitted to that little girl.
We loved her with all our heart.
Both of us were committed tothat little girl.
We loved her with all our heart.
We loved each other with allour heart, but we were dealing
with so much as young people.
We didn't have the supportaround us to actually deal with
those things.
We had a big support, but notthe thing, the support that we
needed at that time.
And so I look at all the thingsthat we've got today like, um,
the programs and stuff that arein place, and I think to myself,
(27:13):
okay, what?
What would have happened if Ihad that?
What would have happened if youknow?
Or how can we actually makesure that we're using those
programs to the best of ourability?
Because back when I wasexperiencing that we didn't have
that, but how do we make surethat they're working
appropriately for our people?
So I think having thoseexperiences helps me to really
(27:34):
understand what the experienceof that feels like, but also
then thinking about how do youlink that with the policy
response or the program responseor making sure that our people
are trying to access those in away that actually is beneficial
to them rather than harmful tothem.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
From my point of view .
You know you've got, you know,thank God we've got these
amazing leaders that are outthere advocating from a policy
perspective and changinglegislation and driving
conversation in the governmentspace.
You know, when you look at thegovernment system and where it
is, it's such, it's like a beast.
I mean, how do we break downthose walls and create those
(28:08):
pathways in to have a voice andget listened?
I come from a business point ofview and, being a businesswoman,
you know working on the groundand driving economic change and
you know creating employment forour people to go in spaces that
don't have a presence becausewe're put into a box.
So how do we, you know, look atthat landscape of changing that
(28:29):
and creating those pathways?
So that's my space, but havingthe conversations as communities
and being on ground.
So through the foundation andthe sphere, you know the sphere
foundation and the communityimpact programs that we drive
there for our elders and youngwomen in the justice space and
for our young children.
It's about.
You know, we've got our leadersthat are doing that and
(28:50):
advocating and doing that policywork.
But we've all got to worktogether in synergy and we've
got to come from that communityand groundwork, and I think
that's where you know we makethat impact change as well.
So it's driving that communityspace and delivering that.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So we've.
We're in 2025 and you know youtalk about growing up in
Rockhampton.
I think about my, my nana'sholding banners up.
When I was younger and beingtoo young to really I didn't
engage in the conversation.
I listened a lot to dad.
Dad tried to involve me in alot of conversations and subtly
push me in a direction to reallystart to understand the way the
world works.
But yeah, where we are now, sowhere you've grown up and what
(29:28):
you've experienced then whatfamily experience and community
experience to now, 2025, whatare your thoughts on how far
things have come and the work todo now?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I think we're in a much harder space today.
I think, even though at thattime our old people were still
living under the Act.
In some of those communitiesyou know, like in Rockhampton,
the Act was still in place in1978.
I was four years old.
People were still living undercurfew at Wollabinda in 1978.
So I think, while they had sucha harder life, the fact that
(30:00):
we've got all of these policiesand programs and funding and,
you know, systems and tools thatwe've got at our disposal, the
fact that we're still feelingthe pushback from government to
take those things up, is thefrustrating part and it
frustrates us being able torealise our rights.
So, for example, when we thinkabout the Closing the Gap space,
(30:21):
for example, the Closing theGap policy, you know we have 19
targets that all reflect a humanrights violation and we then
have tools available to us, likethe United Nations Declaration
on the Rights of IndigenousPeoples, that enable us to
(30:44):
respond to those human rightsviolations in a way that
delivers and realises our rights.
But then you have governments,on the other hand, who commit to
these targets and say, yes,we're going to commit to
reducing the amount of childrengoing into youth detention, for
example, but then we have adultcrime, adult time legislation
that goes in in Queensland thatcompletely contradicts the
target that people havecommitted to.
It puts children in jail ratherthan takes them out of jail,
(31:06):
which is what the target'strying to achieve.
And so when you've gotgovernments that are opposing
human rights or hostile to humanrights, they purposefully
withdraw their support for humanrights protections or go to
even the point of suspendinghuman rights protections in
order to admit those policiesand practices, we've got some
issues to deal with.
And so I think the advocacy andstuff that happened back in
(31:29):
those early years, with ourleadership, marching the streets
and conducting politicaladvocacy on, you know, through
our civil rights marches and allthat sort of stuff, got much
more of a better outcome theseyears that we're in now.
We've spent a lot of energytrying to engage in partnership
with governments, but thepartnership seems to be only
going one way in most areas.
And so, you know, I think thebiggest sort of challenge we
(31:53):
have at this point is embeddinghuman rights in the Australian
legal framework, because at themoment, those protections can
just be set aside when it'sconvenient for governments.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And the words, just the words human rights, and then
you look at suspending humanrights.
That's jarring, yeah, I meanthat's?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
It's like a switch.
They turn it on and off whenit's convenient.
And we don't have any.
National Human Rights Act inplace.
So there's no federalprotection or federal
requirement for states andterritories who have
responsibility for servicedelivery to comply with those
human rights when they'reimplementing those policies and
practices.
So you know, there's still alot of work to do in terms of
(32:31):
encouraging government at thefederal level to put in place
those national protections andthose national standards to
comply with human rights, butmaking sure that states and
territories in their servicedelivery.
You know you don't just signthe closing the gap targets,
just to kind of tick the box tosay, yep, we agree with those
targets, we want to look good,and then you go and put policies
in place that completelycontradict them and cause harm.
(32:53):
And you know those areas thatwe're talking about, the biggest
disproportionate impact is onthe smallest part of the
population and the part of thepopulation that experiences
oppression and discrimination atthe greatest levels and
nobody's responding to that.
I reflect on the 2023 referendumvoice referendum and I'm kind
(33:17):
of feeling that Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
have been experiencing racismfor so long.
It just became normalised to us.
We just got on with it, we justwent.
Oh yeah, here we go again.
We're getting followed aroundin the shopping centre or, oh
yeah, the police are followingus down the street, you know, oh
yeah, we're getting pulled upand asked for our ID for no
particular reason at all.
But since the referendum, thatexperience of racism has become
(33:42):
so much more emboldened andheightened and different, and
we're seeing racial hatred on adaily basis on social media
platforms, but at the same time,we're seeing an invisibility in
the national public debateabout racism.
So, while there areinternational conflicts playing
out that are raising the profileof racism for those particular
(34:03):
communities in our nationallandscape in Australia, the
racism that Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
are experiencing every singleday in this place is invisible.
It's being ignored, and theonly people that are
acknowledging that it exists isus.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I think there is an undertone of racism that existed
in the country.
But then there was a definitivesort of point where you just
knew and I can't particularlydescribe it, but the end result
was for me and my two littleones.
I'm going into public spacesnow calculating the risk to me
and my daughters.
There was a level of anxietyfor me where I'm starting to
(34:39):
like I'm doing the math.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I think Narelle also.
We probably did thatunconsciously previously and not
to the extent where we were soconscious that it's something
we're measuring before we walkout the door every day.
But even myself, you'll see alot of the promotional material
around the informing, the agendastuff and that, and I've got
(35:01):
shirts on that have Aboriginalprints and that on it, like if
I'm going to deliver in amainstream place or I've got to
walk into a mainstream landscape.
I actually consider what I haveto wear that day because I'm
like, okay, if I wear that, am Igoing to draw racism?
Am I going to draw abuse?
Am I going to draw hatred?
So I even consider what I'mgoing to wear that day because I
don't even feel free to wearthings that make me feel good
about myself anymore, and Ithink that's telling about where
(35:24):
we are in the community and inthe society in which we live at
the moment.
I think the other thing isthere's a systemic and an
institutional undertone here inthis.
And you know, while we'retalking about the experience and
exposure of racism asindividuals in our communities
in which we live and we shouldbe able to feel safe in that and
we talk about community safetyevery day, but we're not talking
(35:46):
about the safety thatAboriginal people are not
getting the right to.
But how do we, you know, makesure that, when we walk out in
the world, the systems and theinstitutions that are meant to
protect us from that racism areactually doing what they're
supposed to be doing, and at themoment they're not?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I have a look at what scenarios look like before I
even leave the house.
I mean, I'm already trying tofigure out what I need to
interrupt or intercept.
I'm scanning for the prejudicethat might come up in the day,
and that's not just necessarilywhat we're wearing.
It's about how much of ouridentity we're allowed to show
without drawing racism orjudgment.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
And even as a commissioner, in a role where I
feel empowered every day to beable to walk out in the world in
confidence, like even you talkabout your children.
The week after the referendum,when we were all kind of trying
to take a break from the impactof that vote, I don't think
mainstream Australia actuallyunderstands what the impact of
that was on Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people.
(36:40):
And.
I have faith and I try to hopethat the majority of Australians
do care about us as Aboriginaland Torres Strait Islander
people.
I think the misinformation anddisinformation that was out
there was really damaging andhelped inform what that vote
response was.
But two days after, or threedays after the vote happened,
(37:01):
you know, we were all having togo back into our jobs and back
into our spaces of work, andI've talked to my son about
sharing this story and he'sgiven me permission to do that.
But I've come home from work,he's been trying to ring me
throughout the day.
I couldn't take the callsbecause I was in meetings and so
when I got home I rang him backand I said what's going on?
And he said Mum, I don't knowhow to do this.
(37:23):
And I said what do you mean?
He said I work in anon-Indigenous organisation.
How do I walk into that spaceevery day knowing that probably
they all voted against me, evenexisting?
And this is my son, the son ofthe social justice commissioner,
ringing me, a boy who's hadthat strong foundation and
everything, and telling me thathe doesn't know how to walk in
the world anymore because hedoesn't know who accepts him or
(37:47):
who is happy for him to be thereor not, and he had a baby
coming.
He's got a little boy now who'sjust turned one.
I've got to go home tonight forhis birthday party.
But I said to my boy whathappened with me when I had you
fellas is now where you'resitting.
You don't have the luxury ofsitting down and ignoring what
the world is throwing at you,because you now have a baby that
(38:09):
you have to prepare to walk inthis world, and so you don't
have the luxury to sit down androll over here.
You've got to get up.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
I feel so fortunate to be able to have these types
of conversations I mean, there'sso much learning that I get to
be a part of just listening tothese yarns and that's also why
we've taken so much time tocreate the space at Ember
Connect is because we want womento be able to show up in all of
their magnificence, Like thework that you do.
(38:38):
I just think you have got tohave 500 elders and ancestors
walking with you because it'ssuch a massive, massive job.
There's lots of thingshappening around the world at
the moment that are justexhausting.
So I think the weight and theresponsibility and the strength
that it takes is extraordinaryand there's no doubt that you
(39:00):
have that.
And I know that you're not justcarrying your own story.
I know that you're carrying somany stories with you and
they're the voices of our mob.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I feel the ancestors with me.
I feel that spirit all the time.
And it's funny because when Ido feel down or feel like I'm
struggling with the load that wecarry and it's not just me,
it's all of us carry that loadbut being the front face of that
in the public sort of politicalspace and in a position where
people rely on me to try to makechange, that lifts them out of
(39:31):
the circumstances that they'rein.
It's funny because when I dofeel that weight or when I do
feel the heaviness, or when I'mnot coping and don't get me
wrong I'll go home and cry Likewe had a circumstance last night
.
I just went home, I had to justcry, but I get the phone call.
My auntie, my mum's sister,rings me out of the blue.
Hey, bub, just checking in.
(39:51):
It's almost like they know whenit's the right time to ring.
You know, or I'll get a messagefrom Aunty Bonnie Robertson.
It's funny because I'll befeeling this pressure and all of
a sudden the phone will beepand I open the thing up and I
get this big, beautiful messagefrom Aunty Bonnie or Aunty
Jackie Huggins or Mikura.
You know, like they just comeat the right time.
(40:12):
It's like the old people haveput me in their thoughts and all
of a sudden I'm getting thesebeautiful messages of support,
of love, of backing.
You're doing the right thing,bub.
Keep going, we're with you, youknow.
So it's just amazing how mostnon-Indigenous people listening
to this won't even understandthis, but just how influential
(40:32):
and how great that spirit is inour culture and they're just
always with us and I neverquestion that.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
I might be knowing my tears.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
No, I'm trying not to sniff in the microphone I know
I was doing that too, Sorry.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Just like as a Wajula , you know, it's a privilege to
sit back and just listen to youguys talk but it's heartbreaking
you know, like knowing, thatyeah, that there are a lot of
people out there in my communitywho, for whatever reason,
through ignorance or justprivilege just couldn't see what
it meant to vote.
(41:09):
No, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Yeah, but they also.
You know, I get that, but Ialso think the campaigns were so
strong, yeah, and so there wasa lot of Australians on the
fence that didn't know how tovote, definitely, and when, you
know, even our own people werenot necessarily agreeing with
where the referendum went.
Our non-indigenous allies, orpeople that were keen to do the
(41:32):
right thing, didn't know whichway to.
So, you know, I think, as wemove forward on this, we have to
take responsibility for givingthem the guidance they need and
not letting them succumb to thenoise that's happening in the
background.
They're seeking guidance fromus, but we've done so much work
towards this, so much work.
We've had generations of peopleworking on this.
(41:54):
For it to fall over the way itdid was devastating for so many
aboriginal and non-aboriginalpeople and torres strait
islander people.
But got to keep going.
And you know when I go aroundthe country narelle, you asked
me about my, my tour you knowI've.
I've done most states andterritories now, um, I'm just
finishing here in perth for wa.
I've got northern territory intasmania to do and the torres
(42:17):
stra.
So as I move around the country,I get people that come into the
room and they want to vent andexpress their frustration with
the world that they're currentlyliving in and the hurt and the
harm that they're exposed to.
But by the time they leave thatroom they're ready to go again.
And I'm not saying that'sbecause of me.
I'm saying that's because ofour collective spirit when we
(42:38):
come into those places and thosespaces and we lift each other
and we know that we've got eachother's back.
And how do we bring ourcommunities back together in the
way that we talked aboutearlier when our old people were
leading those conversations?
How do we bring that culturalauthority back to the table?
How do we bring the senioreldership that I get text
messages from that support meand help me take the next step
(43:01):
every day?
You know, I think we've got torebuild our villages and we can
only do that by coming togetherand having these conversations,
not running each other down, notchallenging each other on the
front page of the Australiannewspaper, not undermining the
agenda and the priorities thatwe're all trying to work towards
.
And if you don't agree withthem, fine, yeah, come and have
that conversation with us.
(43:22):
Don't put our dirty laundry outthere for everyone else to use
it against us.
So I think, you know, we've gota bit of work to do around
rebuilding our villages andwe've got to have and create the
spaces for us to do that.
And that's what I found in oursessions, in our consults, in
the informing the agenda, asmuch as it's about trying to
give me some insight into thepriorities that people feel like
(43:43):
need to be taken forward.
For me it's creating spaces forour people to come together and
talk about their exposure andexperience and lifting each
other out of that.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
And I think, any opportunity where we're able to,
if anyone's coming to speakabout the things that are
hurting and harming in a really,really safe place, with
somebody that really cares andhas the power to move that voice
on, I mean, that's reallyhealing in itself, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
I don't know how much power I've got Narelle, but I'm
trying.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
But I think, just your authenticity with taking
care that you've got goingthrough across the country and,
as I said earlier, my eyeballswould be hanging out.
Mine are Even all the thingsthat you've got.
But, yeah, I think that senseof coming together and then
collective that you talked aboutand that energy, there's some
healing in that, I think too.
Is there anything thatsurprised you about the
(44:32):
conversations that you've hadaround the country?
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Not really Youth.
Justice has been something thathas been raised in every single
community and you know, nomatter how much we engage, no
matter how much we try to putevidence before governments and
stuff like that, we're notgetting the response we need,
and so we've got to work aroundthat.
And part of that is the humanrights protections, because
they're able to oppress and denythose human rights at the
(44:58):
stroke of a pen.
The second thing that's comingout is the exposure to racism
and, no surprise again, thesecond thing that's coming out
is the exposure to racism and nosurprise again.
Except, as I said before, I'mstarting to see a different
level of exposure and adifferent reaction and response
from our people.
In that, as I said earlier, Ikind of feel like in the lead-up
(45:18):
to the referendum or the yearsbefore, we just got up every day
and dealt with racism becausewe've been exposed to it for so
long, it's become normalized sowe just knew what to do with it.
But now, because it's soemboldened and so blatant and so
in our faces, even though therest of the world chooses to not
see it, um, our people aredealing with it in a very
different way and they'reexposed to harm that I don't
(45:40):
think we've experienced up untilthis point.
So there's's that.
But then there's all the otherthings, like you know the
closing the gap stuff, the lackof trust in government, the need
for transformative change inthe government systems, systemic
reform, but also things likehousing.
There's a housing crisis in thiscountry.
Our people are not immune tothat.
It's a little bit hidden insome communities because our
(46:04):
caring cultural perspectivesmean that.
Well, like Liza and I grew upin Rockhampton, where there was
a lot of homelessness orAboriginal people sleeping on
the streets In some of thesecommunities that I've been to,
particularly over this side.
People care for their people,so they're not necessarily on
the street, they're couchsurfing.
But it also means that we'vegot overcrowded homes where
(46:26):
children and young people arebeing exposed to rheumatic heart
disease, for example, becausewe've got so many people living
in the same space, you can'tkeep the place clean, you can't
keep the hygiene in the space,you can't keep the germs away.
Covid spreads through our homes, like you wouldn't believe,
because there's so many of usneeding to be accommodated, so
(46:48):
there's so many of us needing tobe accommodated.
So there's those kind ofchallenges, probably the other
thing that I've heard, which isone surprise.
Actually, everything else ispretty general and expected.
But when I went through NewSouth Wales we went to a little
place called Ningin and it's atiny little community but
they're experiencing an uptickin the exposure to cancer and
that community in particular.
A lot of the people are workingin pastoral industry or on
(47:09):
farming properties exposure torunoff from pesticides, but also
skin cancers and stuff likethat.
So Ningen is there.
They've got no permanentdoctors in the township, so
they've got to wait for doctorsto come in.
They've got no access tospecialist services, so the
ability to diagnose is not thereearly enough and so by the time
they get diagnosed and stufflike that, it's too late.
(47:31):
Then we go to Moree completelydifferent town, you know, a big
township, lots of services, lotsof access, 100 Aboriginal
deaths to cancer in 12 months,and so that's been a bit
concerning, and the Moreecommunity have been trying to
raise that for a little while aswell and not necessarily
getting any response to that.
So that's something that I doreally want to follow up on and
(47:54):
look into because, yeah, I'm notsure what is causing that
uptick.
And you know, we also knowthrough the evidence that things
like racism and stress andtrauma and harm cause sickness
in our bodies and in our minds.
So is these uptick in cancerthat our people are experiencing
a result of the harm that we'reexposed to every day?
Speaker 2 (48:17):
It's also going to affect whether or not you're
going to walk into a place andseek help when you need to.
It's like an Erin Brockovichmovie and it's right on our
doorstep with our own people.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
And you know the Ningen example isn't just
Aboriginal people either it's.
You know these communities havebeen dealing with contaminated
water and stuff like that forgenerations.
But the almighty dollar rulesthe roost.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
All right, Unfortunately we're out of time
and I know you've got a flightto catch and we've packed a
whole lot into this yarn.
But before you go, if you couldtell the women of the Ember
Connect Network anything at all,what would it be?
I mean no pressure, you don'tneed a final mic drop moment of
the series, but if there's onething that you would want them
to hear or remember or carrywith them, what would it be?
Speaker 4 (49:03):
I think where I want to go with that question is more
around being a young mum andhaving a baby at 17 and just not
allowing things like that andstuff that comes with that too.
You know, like Liza alluded to,there was a lot of other trauma
and stuff that I wasexperiencing during those early
(49:23):
years, but not letting it defineyou, I think, as young women,
and I hate the word resilience Idon't like the word resilience
and stuff that I wasexperiencing during those early
years, but not letting it defineyou, I think, as young women,
and I hate the word resilience.
I don't like the wordresilience because I feel like
governments rely on us beingresilient in order to abrogate
their responsibilities.
We are resilient because wehave had to be resilient, we've
had no choice in that, but ourresilience is ours to rely on,
(49:48):
to step up and do what we needto do in our lives, and I think
that is the point for me that Iwant to share with our young
women out there today, and ourolder women too.
Your resilience is not anybodyelse's, it's yours.
Take full advantage of yourresilience to get the
achievement of the goals thatyou set for yourself and don't
(50:08):
let anybody else tell you thatyou can't, and don't let
anything that is set to hold youback.
Hold you back.
Do what you need to do.
There's plenty of people outthere willing to support you and
I had that experience firsthand.
So draw on it.
Don't be shamed to ask for help.
I don't know.
Liza, I love it.
Speaker 5 (50:25):
I mean, it's exactly the same, sister, what you said.
I think you know staying trueto yourself, being connected to
your family, your community, toyour elders, keeping true to
your culture, but also, you know, knowing your dreams and your
goals.
But I always used to think, ifit is to be, it's up to me.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
So you go and create that pathway and find that
journey and live your dream yeahand personally you know, once
again I've walked away from thisyoung, having benefited in ways
that I just wouldn't expectit's been enlightening, it's
grounding, and it's always sofull of wisdom to be speaking to
amazing women like you both.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
so thank you so much and I'm sure, like so many other
women listening, I'm inspiredto keep going and stay connected
and to keep tuning up forthings that matter.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
You too, and thank you for Ember Connect for you
know, raising the voices ofFirst Nations women, and for
backing us in, and it's allabout supporting each other
right.
So thank you to Ember Connectas well.
Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I get really mushy and emotional at times like this
when I have to say goodbye.
So I know I'm not the only onesending love and light with you
both as you travel and continuethis important work.
I mean, you're both carrying somuch strength and grace and
we're all walking beside you.
In spirit, ember Connect mobwill be cheering, cheering you
on from afar, and we'll bereally looking forward to
keeping up with your journey asthey both unfold.
So love you guys.
Biggest mob.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connects membersand allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(52:15):
impact of the Ember Connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion withus, and to find out more about
Ember Connect, visitemberconnectcomau.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
I'm still going to go .
Look for the taxi driver.
They're driving around, slumpedin their seat.
Just all you can see is the topof someone's head and a hand on
the steering wheel.
They're just trying to keep alow profile.
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