May 1, 2025 • 23 mins
(Part 2)
Following our exploration of the origins of the word "woke", Narelle and Tess dissect Peter Dutton's recent comments about "the woke agenda" in schools and education and the continued confusion so many of us have about what this word even means anymore.
Links & Resources
- Dutton's ambiguous definition of "woke" - SBS Facebook page
- Woke up call - Bill Browne, The Australia Institute
- 'Woke Up Call': Australian Attitudes to and Perceptions of 'Wokeness' - The Australia Institute
- Dutton drops vow to change school curriculum despite 'indoctrination' comments - ABC News
- Jacinta Price says Coalition will 'make Australia great again' - then accuses media of being 'obsessed with' Trump - The Guardian
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hiya, I'm Narelle Henry, a Noongar woman living
out here in Perth in the wildwild west.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I am possibly the whitest
woman in Australia, also livingon Noongar country, australia,
also living on Noongar country.
So, narelle, I had learned alot from listening to your part
one of the origin of woke, andI'm finding it really
interesting in the lead up toour federal election here, as we
(00:57):
see more references to wokebeing used, but also the
ambiguity of the word as well,in particular Peter Dutton
referencing it recently inregards to schools and education
.
And we'll just play that nowfor everybody.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Last night a woman asked you about getting the woke
agenda out of schools and youspoke about potentially
conditioning funding fromschools to change their
curriculum or to influence theircurriculum.
I think influence was the wordthat you used.
Could I ask specifically whatlessons or units you're
concerned about having a wokeagenda?
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I want to make sure that our kids, whether they're
in primary school or secondaryschool, or indeed young
Australians who are atuniversities, are receiving the
education that their parentswould expect them to receive,
and our position will reflectcommunity standards in relation
to what is being taught at ourschools and our universities.
And you've seen some recentexamples in relation to law
school and the requirementsbeing made.
(01:57):
I think it was MacquarieUniversity at the time.
You've seen other academics whoare out as part of protests on
the streets and and and teachers.
Similarly, that's beingtranslated into the classroom.
That's not something I support.
I support young Australiansbeing able to think freely,
being able to assess what'sbefore them and not being told
and indoctrinated with somethingthat is the agenda of others.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Narelle, how does that particular clip make you
feel?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Enraged.
I mean I listened to it and Idon't want to hear it ever again
.
I just am so sick of this typeof rubbish and I cannot believe
that we're letting somebody inAustralia, where we should know
better, come out and talk aboutthis type of trash I mean, we're
watching it in the US roll outand fail.
I mean it's an absolute trainwreck.
(02:48):
And now we have Peter Dunstsaying the same thing and you
can't actually define it.
Like, if you can't define woke,what are you talking about?
If you can't define a wokeagenda, and then you're talking
about woke agenda in schools, Ithink it's getting into really
dangerous territory and I thinkwe need to call it out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I think the um, the contradiction that he has there,
especially in that at the end,where he's talking about wanting
kids to think freely and, to,you know, be critical thinkers
and question things and yet atthe same time assuming that they
can't question their ownteachers you know, if their
teachers happen to go out andprotest on the weekends, that
(03:25):
the kids sort of take it thatthat has to be the way things
are it's just bizarre.
I think it's absolutely bizarre.
And the other thing I foundthat sort of stood out to me
with that was his talk aboutcommunity standards.
You know we educate parents.
Yeah, parents want their seetheir kids educated, you know,
to community standards, likewhat community and what
(03:45):
standards you know you'retalking about.
It's just so ambiguous and Ithink it's purely fear-mongering
community standards as well.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Actually, I mean, if I'm thinking about the community
that I'm coming from, I knowthat I come from a community who
would want me to be thinkingvery critically about the
information that I'm getting,that would want me to think for
myself and then to be able toarticulate how I feel about
those matters and then makedecisions based on those
feelings but also perspectivesthat I'm getting from lots of
different sources, understanding, you know, the agenda behind
(04:15):
those sources and then beingable to act on the information
in terms of how I feel.
So I mean, it's just so scary.
Again, looking back at the USwhere they're burning books and
trying to take the critical racetheory out of the curriculum,
it's getting a little bitdangerous.
So, yeah, I really do want toknow.
(04:36):
I want Peter Dutton to tell mewhat is the work agenda in
education, because I'm a teacher.
Tell me, tell me, articulate it, write it down, dot point it.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Let us really really understand what in the actual
hell you are talking about andas a, as a teacher, I guess,
just even the logistics of that.
Like you know, you have acurriculum that you need to
follow.
You know, like, how, does.
How would you say that yourexternal life would ever impact
the kids that you're teaching aswell?
(05:08):
I guess it just seems like sucha disconnect to me that an
individual teacher would havethe ability and the opportunity
to indoctrinate, you know, awhole classroom full of children
to their own particular beliefsyeah, I mean, I'm a physio
teacher so I could probablyindoctrinate kids into thing
into be their favourite sport.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I think part of being an educator is being able to
present all the different typesof information required.
So obviously I was in a verydifferent space with phys ed,
but if someone's an Englishteacher, that's where possibly
this conversation would come inmore.
I imagine and without methinking about it too much prior
to this, please kind of jump inif I'm wrong but I think being
(05:50):
able to present books andinformation and writings from
people with differentperspectives really just gives
us a better view of the worldand all the people in it.
Like, why do we just want tohear from people like Peter
Dutton Is that what he's asking?
Because he did say the wordindoctrination.
What are we talking about withindoctrination?
(06:12):
Explain that, describe that.
What do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Well, a I don't think he can, and B I think that I
mean.
His response in that clip, Ithink is indicative of the
confusion that lots ofAustralians feel about the term
woke and how it's used inAustralian society and what it
actually means.
I saw a survey back this wasback from 2022, by the
(06:37):
Australian Institute, and youknow that commented that there's
about 46% of Australians had noidea what woke meant and were
very confused because over theyears there's been so many
different things described aswoke from the Wiggles, the Queen
, the Australian cricket team indifferent contexts, and so it
becomes very sort of confusingfor people as well.
So I actually think it's justgobbledygook, like it's just
(07:00):
lost its meaning and it's nowjust a sort of like a call to
arms, you know, from anemotional standpoint that's
driven by fear and have theworld be.
Yeah, just back in the 1950smale dominant situation.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, it's really.
It's really frightening.
But if some of thoseorganisations that you mentioned
, let's talk about the Wiggles,is it because you know've got um
people that look differently onthere?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
now, yeah, I assume that it would be, that probably,
yeah, with the first femalewiggle and that sort of thing.
So just, uh, diversity, rightit's, it's being able to
visually see diversity and youknow, and uh, people reacting to
that, I don't know quite howthe royal family could be
considered or in what contextthat was in, maybe when Meghan
(07:46):
joined Meghan Markle, maybe whoknows.
But then, you know, that didn'texactly go well either.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
No, but then you've got Disney.
And is that because they had ablack snow white?
Possibly yeah, and the LittleMermaid maybe.
Yeah, and now everybody's likethe world is ending because
there is a black actress.
Um, in a what they, what a lotof people feel is a
traditionally right yeah, yep,yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And yet you know mickey roney was playing a
japanese guy in Breakfast atTiffany's back in, you know,
like in the movies back then.
That's fine, but you know wecan't have a character in an
animated movie be a differentcolour to white.
Good line out of this report isby a quote by Bill Brown, who's
(08:34):
the director of the AustralianInstitute's Democracy and
Accountability Program, and hesays the word woke has been used
to describe everything from theRoyal Family, disney, the
Wiggles, climate action, veganfood, pope Francis, federal and
state Liberal MPs and racialjustice, to how the Tasmanian
Liberals arranged their Senateticket.
When critics accuse everyonefrom the Wiggles, the Queen, the
Pope and the Australian cricketteam of all being woke,
(08:56):
australians will unsurprisinglywonder what is so bad about
being woke, or indeed whatactually constitutes wokeness.
Another key stat that I foundquite interesting, as we are in
the lead up to the federalelection, was that, ahead of the
last federal election in 2022,only one in five people who
described themselves as wokewere intended to vote for the
Greens.
So there were actually morepeople who said they were woke
(09:18):
who intended to vote for thecoalition for the Greens.
So there were actually morepeople who said they were woke,
who intended to vote for thecoalition.
So whether we see the samething again this year with the
word being more weaponised andyou know, and what we've seen
over in the US.
It's a word that at the momentis very conflicting in its
meaning here and it sort ofmakes sense then why Dutton
can't even articulate what itmeans.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I continue to be totally infuriated because for
me again, work is caring aboutothers, including others, making
sure there's space for others,and usually when we hear it in,
you know, in governments we'vetalked about, you know, in the
previous podcast we talked about, we've talked about argentina,
and now it's just sodisappointing that we see that
(09:58):
in australia.
But that that tells me thatnumber one, peter Dutton thinks
we're dumb.
Two, that it actually is goingto work with a group of people,
and I guess the fact that hecannot describe it much like, I
mean, if we go back to thecommunity standards that he's
talking about, when he's talkingabout the community standards,
that's that's totally vague aswell and on the surface
(10:19):
standards, that soundscompletely reasonable,
absolutely, totally reasonable.
But actually, when you reallythink about it, it's really
frightening and concerning.
Because I don't want topoliticise education We've seen
it happen, particularly inFlorida.
I've got a couple of friendsthat are teachers in Florida and
I've spoken to them about howmortifying it is for them.
(10:40):
One of them is a gay teacher.
She's Latina and it's you know,what they're doing there is
hideous and we cannot afford tobe doing that here.
I think I just I'm hoping thatwe're smarter than that and that
we can catch it.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Do you think in this situation, dutton's using the
term community standardsinterchangeably to traditional
values?
Because that sort of ties in, Iguess, to anti-wokeness, as
well as bringing things back tothe way they used to be in scare
quotes yeah, and see, when Ithink of community and when I
think of traditional values, Ithink of caring for everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
That's right.
You know, we talked about thisbefore we, we press the record
button in terms of being reallyproud of our aboriginality and
knowing that we take care ofeverybody in our family and
everybody in our community andwe acknowledge everybody and
there's a collectivedecision-making.
But that is not the samestandard outside of us and it's
(11:40):
also you's a.
There's a totally differentversion of traditional values
that I see that people arefighting for.
That, we've seen, also are notvery effective.
They're only really effectivefor one group of people and
that's usually a group of peoplewho are middle-aged white men,
to be quite frank, some of whom,I have realized, are starting
(12:01):
to feel like they're the mostoppressed person on the planet
currently, which also I don'tbelieve is true.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Um, and it's just that, hey, I've got a, I don't
have any elbow room anymore, um,and I've got to speak a lot
louder than what I usually haveto because I've got to share
space with other people I agree,I was, you know, I do find very
, I find it really difficult tounderstand where people are
coming from, where, I guessagain where men are coming from,
(12:28):
who do feel devalued and who dofeel like the world is now
passing them by and they can'tparticipate in it.
Because I think there's so muchinformation available and
there's so many, you know,there's so many stories to
listen to and research to read,and so much information
available that you know thatshows structural inequalities,
(12:50):
that shows, you know, theinjustice that people have, you
know, across a spectrum of, yeah, a spectrum of different people
that they have experiencedthrough their life and that that
has led to people beingmarginalised and sort of worse
off.
It's just a willful blindness towhat's actually out there, I
(13:10):
feel like, and an entitlementthat I deserve this purely
because of my skin colour andwhat's between my legs, and I
find it really difficult tounderstand.
I find it really difficult tounderstand.
I find it really difficult toempathise with and I would say
I'm a fairly empathetic personbut and as a mother of two sons,
I don't know how people cansquare that circle where they
(13:34):
are then putting their kids inthat, giving their kids that
view that they are entitled tomore than anyone else.
You know that my two sons areentitled to more than my
daughter, or that view that theyare entitled to more than
anyone else.
You know that my two sons areentitled to more than my
daughter, or that my two sonsare entitled to more than you
know, than your two daughters,you know, and that sort of thing
.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I just but this is what this feeds into, this
discourse and and these, thesecomments from our leaders feed
into that I want to go back tothe education element and,
talking about what makes peopleuncomfortable, I always
reference the US one because mypartner's American and I have
two daughters who are alsoAmerican.
So pay close attention towhat's happening over there, but
(14:11):
also paying close attentionbecause that influence has
travelled, and a bit stupidlyactually.
So when you think that peopleshould know better, you see that
I guess that rhetoric somehowfinds its way onto our shores
and then it's picked up,unfortunately, by some of our
leaders.
So if I go back to the criticalrace theory that nobody wants
(14:33):
to talk about, I'm looking atour education and we actually
haven't done any truth-tellingin our education.
To begin with, I left primaryschool, you know, in the 80s and
I actually wasn't.
I didn't learn the history ofAustralia, same.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
In fact, I learnt a very one-sided view of what
happened in our own history.
So, when it comes toindoctrination, mate, what are
you talking about?
What are you talking about?
We've been indoctrinated.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
For what are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
We've been indoctrinated forgenerations now, haven't we?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
yes, it's like hey you know what, if, like, if you
let's talk about it, we wouldlove.
We would love for everyone tobe educated by our community
standards, because theneverybody would care about
everybody that understand thetrue history of australia and
they would understand that theyknow here's the true history and
let's make sure that neverhappens again.
(15:24):
That's my community standard,that's.
That's that's the communitythat I came from and I could
probably you know there's somany other communities too that
feel that way.
Now, the community standardthat Doug is talking about is it
the?
Is that is that you knowshorthand.
For I don't.
We don't want to teach anybodythat makes other people feel
uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Well, that makes the majority feel uncomfortable
right.
I don't care if there's anAboriginal kid in the class
who's going.
No, 200 years ago was not whenAustralia started.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
There seems to be a very common experience with lots
of female teachers who aregetting frustrated, I guess,
with that kind of mob mentalityof boys coming together,
adolescent boys, coming togetherand behaving without respect,
without boundaries and justbeing not only misogynistic, in
the very least disrespectfultowards a lot of different
(16:22):
people in the school,particularly girls and women,
whether that's commentary,whether that's crossing
boundaries with the teachers inwhat they're saying, or
proximity.
I think it's becoming a realproblem.
So I'm trying to understandwhere it's come from and I'm
trying to really understand.
You know, like we're talkingabout traditional values and
people feel like traditionalvalues are getting lost, or
(16:44):
their traditional values aregetting lost, or their
traditional values are gettinglost and now the roles are
shifting.
I think that gender equality hasmoved somewhat faster over the
last couple of years and I thinkthe progress for women has
moved relatively quickly.
There's lots more to go, don'tget me wrong.
I think that's shifted thebalance for many men in society.
(17:05):
Where they're going hang on aminute, uh, where, where do I
fit now?
Like, what's my job?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I have a hard time empathizing to, to be honest
yeah, I was, um, listening toshout out to one of my favorite
podcasts if books could kill.
One of the co-hosts was talkingabout, uh, talking about, you
know, masculinity and and thedifferent ways that gender norms
, I suppose, show up indifferent communities all around
the world.
And uh was sort of startingsome research from different
(17:32):
communities where, you know,researchers would go in and sort
of ask so what's the male rolein your society, what's the
female role?
And that people would begenuinely confused because there
was no difference between menand women and and how that sort
of translates to sexuality andall sorts of things as well.
It just it's.
It's such a nice reminder thatthe dominant way of thinking in
western culture is just one wayof thinking, it's one way of
(17:55):
living, it's one way of being,and that that's.
It's not the be-all and end-all, and that we do need to look to
other cultures, other societies, to grow and to become better
humans, because no girl is born,you know, and has to go
straight to the kitchen, youknow, or straight to the laundry
, or you know, like that's justnot the way it is.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think about what I would have to tell my child if I
knew that was going to be thelife for her, and I know that
that's been the life that somany women have had to lead.
I can't give a male'sperspective on this and I can
only you know, based on readingand looking around, on kind of
gathering my own opinions.
But is it that men wereconstantly thinking that they
(18:37):
grow up and they get a job andthey provide for family and they
lead, and now does that scriptno longer apply?
And is that, I guess, on morepeople?
And has that now flowed ontothe younger men where we're now?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
they're looking to places for role models and then
they're going onto those crazypodcasts, of which it's
conservative podcasts and mediais so much more prevalent and
available and accessible nowthan liberal sort of more
left-wing views as well.
I saw something the other day.
It was only Noah Taylor, Ithink, was the only sort of
(19:12):
left-wing podcast host or keymedia person at the moment who
was in the top ten of the mostlistened to sites and things
like that, and that in itself isconcerning, because that's then
where people have to search outto find different opinions and
you know more liberal opinionsas well.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And so if there are, if there are people, if there
are men that are struggling withthat um, that place and that
purpose because they're havingto share um so much of those
that space and responsibilities,even family responsibilities,
whatever it might be, I guessthat uncertainty, with this
resentment building and shameand confusion, and again I can't
relate.
(19:51):
I cannot and again, I can onlyread and go really Okay, really
Okay, like we can't just movepast it and evolve and grow some
emotional intelligence.
But what's happening is that,rather than growing that
emotional intelligence and um,but, but what's happening is
that, rather than growing thatemotional intelligence and
finding a way and creating new,a new space for everybody, it's
now young men are listening topeople who go oh, you feel
(20:14):
powerless, women are to blame.
Um, yeah, not respected.
Then you just have to dominateand be the louder voice or
feeling uncertain, don't, don'tbe vulnerable, take control,
you're in charge.
Uh, be the loud voice and it's,it's obnoxious, and then guess
who has to deal with the frontof it.
Yeah, yeah, you think aboutschools.
(20:35):
I think, like all of the all ofthe conversation I've had about
toxic masculinity and young menand students in schools are all
from female teachers, andthey're the ones that are
struggling with it the most, yetthey're the ones that have the
ability to deal with it, and Isay ability One.
It's not our responsibility andit's not their responsibility.
(20:57):
But as teachers, you want tomake sure that you're growing
good human beings and trying tomake the world around you a
better place.
But what power do they have tomake any changes with those
young men, particularly whenthey are so driven by the group,
the mob?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
but norell dutton says that teachers have all the
power.
They're just indoctrinatingkids left, right and center.
So you know how could this bepossible?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I I just, I I'm just stuttering, I don't, I don't
have any, I don't have any, Idon't have any words.
He makes no sense For me.
I'm just like hey, mate, justtell us your policies.
You know, we don't need to doall this other shit where you're
trying to frighten the shit outof people.
We don't need to do that.
I need to bring Jacinta alongto say she's going to do an
audit of Aboriginal programs andto make Australia great again.
(21:45):
Sis, when's Australia beengreat for you?
Are you out of your mind?
What the actual hell is shetalking about?
I just shake my head and go.
Surely no one's listening tothis.
Surely we're all smart at this.
I think we're smarter than this.
The problem is that I don'tthink Peter Dutton thinks that.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think he thinks we're stupid at and thinks that
I think he thinks we're stupid.
Or, like Trump, he loves theuneducated because less chance
to question.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
If we keep people in a state where they are not able
to critically assess informationor digest it, absorb it.
It really is just like criticalthinking skills.
That's a really big thing,that's a really big part of our
curriculum.
Then if we don't have that,then we won't question stupid
(22:28):
things that he says.
What are we doing right now?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connect'smembers and allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(23:03):
impact of the ember connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion.
Yeah, no wonder I want to rantCoffee shit.
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islandertraditional custodians of
country and recognises theircontinuing connection to land,
waterways, culture and community.
We pay our respects to Elders,past and present, their wisdom
and knowledge that guides ourjourneys through life.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hiya, I'm Narelle Henry, a Noongar woman living
out here in Perth in the wildwild west.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I am possibly the whitest
woman in Australia, also livingon Noongar country, australia,
also living on Noongar country.
So, narelle, I had learned alot from listening to your part
one of the origin of woke, andI'm finding it really
interesting in the lead up toour federal election here, as we
(00:57):
see more references to wokebeing used, but also the
ambiguity of the word as well,in particular Peter Dutton
referencing it recently inregards to schools and education
.
And we'll just play that nowfor everybody.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Last night a woman asked you about getting the woke
agenda out of schools and youspoke about potentially
conditioning funding fromschools to change their
curriculum or to influence theircurriculum.
I think influence was the wordthat you used.
Could I ask specifically whatlessons or units you're
concerned about having a wokeagenda?
Speaker 5 (01:37):
I want to make sure that our kids, whether they're
in primary school or secondaryschool, or indeed young
Australians who are atuniversities, are receiving the
education that their parentswould expect them to receive,
and our position will reflectcommunity standards in relation
to what is being taught at ourschools and our universities.
And you've seen some recentexamples in relation to law
school and the requirementsbeing made.
(01:57):
I think it was MacquarieUniversity at the time.
You've seen other academics whoare out as part of protests on
the streets and and and teachers.
Similarly, that's beingtranslated into the classroom.
That's not something I support.
I support young Australiansbeing able to think freely,
being able to assess what'sbefore them and not being told
and indoctrinated with somethingthat is the agenda of others.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Narelle, how does that particular clip make you
feel?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Enraged.
I mean I listened to it and Idon't want to hear it ever again
.
I just am so sick of this typeof rubbish and I cannot believe
that we're letting somebody inAustralia, where we should know
better, come out and talk aboutthis type of trash I mean, we're
watching it in the US roll outand fail.
I mean it's an absolute trainwreck.
(02:48):
And now we have Peter Dunstsaying the same thing and you
can't actually define it.
Like, if you can't define woke,what are you talking about?
If you can't define a wokeagenda, and then you're talking
about woke agenda in schools, Ithink it's getting into really
dangerous territory and I thinkwe need to call it out.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I think the um, the contradiction that he has there,
especially in that at the end,where he's talking about wanting
kids to think freely and, to,you know, be critical thinkers
and question things and yet atthe same time assuming that they
can't question their ownteachers you know, if their
teachers happen to go out andprotest on the weekends, that
(03:25):
the kids sort of take it thatthat has to be the way things
are it's just bizarre.
I think it's absolutely bizarre.
And the other thing I foundthat sort of stood out to me
with that was his talk aboutcommunity standards.
You know we educate parents.
Yeah, parents want their seetheir kids educated, you know,
to community standards, likewhat community and what
(03:45):
standards you know you'retalking about.
It's just so ambiguous and Ithink it's purely fear-mongering
community standards as well.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Actually, I mean, if I'm thinking about the community
that I'm coming from, I knowthat I come from a community who
would want me to be thinkingvery critically about the
information that I'm getting,that would want me to think for
myself and then to be able toarticulate how I feel about
those matters and then makedecisions based on those
feelings but also perspectivesthat I'm getting from lots of
different sources, understanding, you know, the agenda behind
(04:15):
those sources and then beingable to act on the information
in terms of how I feel.
So I mean, it's just so scary.
Again, looking back at the USwhere they're burning books and
trying to take the critical racetheory out of the curriculum,
it's getting a little bitdangerous.
So, yeah, I really do want toknow.
(04:36):
I want Peter Dutton to tell mewhat is the work agenda in
education, because I'm a teacher.
Tell me, tell me, articulate it, write it down, dot point it.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Let us really really understand what in the actual
hell you are talking about andas a, as a teacher, I guess,
just even the logistics of that.
Like you know, you have acurriculum that you need to
follow.
You know, like, how, does.
How would you say that yourexternal life would ever impact
the kids that you're teaching aswell?
(05:08):
I guess it just seems like sucha disconnect to me that an
individual teacher would havethe ability and the opportunity
to indoctrinate, you know, awhole classroom full of children
to their own particular beliefsyeah, I mean, I'm a physio
teacher so I could probablyindoctrinate kids into thing
into be their favourite sport.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I think part of being an educator is being able to
present all the different typesof information required.
So obviously I was in a verydifferent space with phys ed,
but if someone's an Englishteacher, that's where possibly
this conversation would come inmore.
I imagine and without methinking about it too much prior
to this, please kind of jump inif I'm wrong but I think being
(05:50):
able to present books andinformation and writings from
people with differentperspectives really just gives
us a better view of the worldand all the people in it.
Like, why do we just want tohear from people like Peter
Dutton Is that what he's asking?
Because he did say the wordindoctrination.
What are we talking about withindoctrination?
(06:12):
Explain that, describe that.
What do you reckon?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Well, a I don't think he can, and B I think that I
mean.
His response in that clip, Ithink is indicative of the
confusion that lots ofAustralians feel about the term
woke and how it's used inAustralian society and what it
actually means.
I saw a survey back this wasback from 2022, by the
(06:37):
Australian Institute, and youknow that commented that there's
about 46% of Australians had noidea what woke meant and were
very confused because over theyears there's been so many
different things described aswoke from the Wiggles, the Queen
, the Australian cricket team indifferent contexts, and so it
becomes very sort of confusingfor people as well.
So I actually think it's justgobbledygook, like it's just
(07:00):
lost its meaning and it's nowjust a sort of like a call to
arms, you know, from anemotional standpoint that's
driven by fear and have theworld be.
Yeah, just back in the 1950smale dominant situation.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, it's really.
It's really frightening.
But if some of thoseorganisations that you mentioned
, let's talk about the Wiggles,is it because you know've got um
people that look differently onthere?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
now, yeah, I assume that it would be, that probably,
yeah, with the first femalewiggle and that sort of thing.
So just, uh, diversity, rightit's, it's being able to
visually see diversity and youknow, and uh, people reacting to
that, I don't know quite howthe royal family could be
considered or in what contextthat was in, maybe when Meghan
(07:46):
joined Meghan Markle, maybe whoknows.
But then, you know, that didn'texactly go well either.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
No, but then you've got Disney.
And is that because they had ablack snow white?
Possibly yeah, and the LittleMermaid maybe.
Yeah, and now everybody's likethe world is ending because
there is a black actress.
Um, in a what they, what a lotof people feel is a
traditionally right yeah, yep,yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And yet you know mickey roney was playing a
japanese guy in Breakfast atTiffany's back in, you know,
like in the movies back then.
That's fine, but you know wecan't have a character in an
animated movie be a differentcolour to white.
Good line out of this report isby a quote by Bill Brown, who's
(08:34):
the director of the AustralianInstitute's Democracy and
Accountability Program, and hesays the word woke has been used
to describe everything from theRoyal Family, disney, the
Wiggles, climate action, veganfood, pope Francis, federal and
state Liberal MPs and racialjustice, to how the Tasmanian
Liberals arranged their Senateticket.
When critics accuse everyonefrom the Wiggles, the Queen, the
Pope and the Australian cricketteam of all being woke,
(08:56):
australians will unsurprisinglywonder what is so bad about
being woke, or indeed whatactually constitutes wokeness.
Another key stat that I foundquite interesting, as we are in
the lead up to the federalelection, was that, ahead of the
last federal election in 2022,only one in five people who
described themselves as wokewere intended to vote for the
Greens.
So there were actually morepeople who said they were woke
(09:18):
who intended to vote for thecoalition for the Greens.
So there were actually morepeople who said they were woke,
who intended to vote for thecoalition.
So whether we see the samething again this year with the
word being more weaponised andyou know, and what we've seen
over in the US.
It's a word that at the momentis very conflicting in its
meaning here and it sort ofmakes sense then why Dutton
can't even articulate what itmeans.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I continue to be totally infuriated because for
me again, work is caring aboutothers, including others, making
sure there's space for others,and usually when we hear it in,
you know, in governments we'vetalked about, you know, in the
previous podcast we talked about, we've talked about argentina,
and now it's just sodisappointing that we see that
(09:58):
in australia.
But that that tells me thatnumber one, peter Dutton thinks
we're dumb.
Two, that it actually is goingto work with a group of people,
and I guess the fact that hecannot describe it much like, I
mean, if we go back to thecommunity standards that he's
talking about, when he's talkingabout the community standards,
that's that's totally vague aswell and on the surface
(10:19):
standards, that soundscompletely reasonable,
absolutely, totally reasonable.
But actually, when you reallythink about it, it's really
frightening and concerning.
Because I don't want topoliticise education We've seen
it happen, particularly inFlorida.
I've got a couple of friendsthat are teachers in Florida and
I've spoken to them about howmortifying it is for them.
(10:40):
One of them is a gay teacher.
She's Latina and it's you know,what they're doing there is
hideous and we cannot afford tobe doing that here.
I think I just I'm hoping thatwe're smarter than that and that
we can catch it.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Do you think in this situation, dutton's using the
term community standardsinterchangeably to traditional
values?
Because that sort of ties in, Iguess, to anti-wokeness, as
well as bringing things back tothe way they used to be in scare
quotes yeah, and see, when Ithink of community and when I
think of traditional values, Ithink of caring for everyone.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
That's right.
You know, we talked about thisbefore we, we press the record
button in terms of being reallyproud of our aboriginality and
knowing that we take care ofeverybody in our family and
everybody in our community andwe acknowledge everybody and
there's a collectivedecision-making.
But that is not the samestandard outside of us and it's
(11:40):
also you's a.
There's a totally differentversion of traditional values
that I see that people arefighting for.
That, we've seen, also are notvery effective.
They're only really effectivefor one group of people and
that's usually a group of peoplewho are middle-aged white men,
to be quite frank, some of whom,I have realized, are starting
(12:01):
to feel like they're the mostoppressed person on the planet
currently, which also I don'tbelieve is true.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Um, and it's just that, hey, I've got a, I don't
have any elbow room anymore, um,and I've got to speak a lot
louder than what I usually haveto because I've got to share
space with other people I agree,I was, you know, I do find very
, I find it really difficult tounderstand where people are
coming from, where, I guessagain where men are coming from,
(12:28):
who do feel devalued and who dofeel like the world is now
passing them by and they can'tparticipate in it.
Because I think there's so muchinformation available and
there's so many, you know,there's so many stories to
listen to and research to read,and so much information
available that you know thatshows structural inequalities,
(12:50):
that shows, you know, theinjustice that people have, you
know, across a spectrum of, yeah, a spectrum of different people
that they have experiencedthrough their life and that that
has led to people beingmarginalised and sort of worse
off.
It's just a willful blindness towhat's actually out there, I
(13:10):
feel like, and an entitlementthat I deserve this purely
because of my skin colour andwhat's between my legs, and I
find it really difficult tounderstand.
I find it really difficult tounderstand.
I find it really difficult toempathise with and I would say
I'm a fairly empathetic personbut and as a mother of two sons,
I don't know how people cansquare that circle where they
(13:34):
are then putting their kids inthat, giving their kids that
view that they are entitled tomore than anyone else.
You know that my two sons areentitled to more than my
daughter, or that view that theyare entitled to more than
anyone else.
You know that my two sons areentitled to more than my
daughter, or that my two sonsare entitled to more than you
know, than your two daughters,you know, and that sort of thing
.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
I just but this is what this feeds into, this
discourse and and these, thesecomments from our leaders feed
into that I want to go back tothe education element and,
talking about what makes peopleuncomfortable, I always
reference the US one because mypartner's American and I have
two daughters who are alsoAmerican.
So pay close attention towhat's happening over there, but
(14:11):
also paying close attentionbecause that influence has
travelled, and a bit stupidlyactually.
So when you think that peopleshould know better, you see that
I guess that rhetoric somehowfinds its way onto our shores
and then it's picked up,unfortunately, by some of our
leaders.
So if I go back to the criticalrace theory that nobody wants
(14:33):
to talk about, I'm looking atour education and we actually
haven't done any truth-tellingin our education.
To begin with, I left primaryschool, you know, in the 80s and
I actually wasn't.
I didn't learn the history ofAustralia, same.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
In fact, I learnt a very one-sided view of what
happened in our own history.
So, when it comes toindoctrination, mate, what are
you talking about?
What are you talking about?
We've been indoctrinated.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
For what are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
We've been indoctrinated forgenerations now, haven't we?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
yes, it's like hey you know what, if, like, if you
let's talk about it, we wouldlove.
We would love for everyone tobe educated by our community
standards, because theneverybody would care about
everybody that understand thetrue history of australia and
they would understand that theyknow here's the true history and
let's make sure that neverhappens again.
(15:24):
That's my community standard,that's.
That's that's the communitythat I came from and I could
probably you know there's somany other communities too that
feel that way.
Now, the community standardthat Doug is talking about is it
the?
Is that is that you knowshorthand.
For I don't.
We don't want to teach anybodythat makes other people feel
uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Well, that makes the majority feel uncomfortable
right.
I don't care if there's anAboriginal kid in the class
who's going.
No, 200 years ago was not whenAustralia started.
Exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
There seems to be a very common experience with lots
of female teachers who aregetting frustrated, I guess,
with that kind of mob mentalityof boys coming together,
adolescent boys, coming togetherand behaving without respect,
without boundaries and justbeing not only misogynistic, in
the very least disrespectfultowards a lot of different
(16:22):
people in the school,particularly girls and women,
whether that's commentary,whether that's crossing
boundaries with the teachers inwhat they're saying, or
proximity.
I think it's becoming a realproblem.
So I'm trying to understandwhere it's come from and I'm
trying to really understand.
You know, like we're talkingabout traditional values and
people feel like traditionalvalues are getting lost, or
(16:44):
their traditional values aregetting lost, or their
traditional values are gettinglost and now the roles are
shifting.
I think that gender equality hasmoved somewhat faster over the
last couple of years and I thinkthe progress for women has
moved relatively quickly.
There's lots more to go, don'tget me wrong.
I think that's shifted thebalance for many men in society.
(17:05):
Where they're going hang on aminute, uh, where, where do I
fit now?
Like, what's my job?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I have a hard time empathizing to, to be honest
yeah, I was, um, listening toshout out to one of my favorite
podcasts if books could kill.
One of the co-hosts was talkingabout, uh, talking about, you
know, masculinity and and thedifferent ways that gender norms
, I suppose, show up indifferent communities all around
the world.
And uh was sort of startingsome research from different
(17:32):
communities where, you know,researchers would go in and sort
of ask so what's the male rolein your society, what's the
female role?
And that people would begenuinely confused because there
was no difference between menand women and and how that sort
of translates to sexuality andall sorts of things as well.
It just it's.
It's such a nice reminder thatthe dominant way of thinking in
western culture is just one wayof thinking, it's one way of
(17:55):
living, it's one way of being,and that that's.
It's not the be-all and end-all, and that we do need to look to
other cultures, other societies, to grow and to become better
humans, because no girl is born,you know, and has to go
straight to the kitchen, youknow, or straight to the laundry
, or you know, like that's justnot the way it is.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think about what I would have to tell my child if I
knew that was going to be thelife for her, and I know that
that's been the life that somany women have had to lead.
I can't give a male'sperspective on this and I can
only you know, based on readingand looking around, on kind of
gathering my own opinions.
But is it that men wereconstantly thinking that they
(18:37):
grow up and they get a job andthey provide for family and they
lead, and now does that scriptno longer apply?
And is that, I guess, on morepeople?
And has that now flowed ontothe younger men where we're now?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
they're looking to places for role models and then
they're going onto those crazypodcasts, of which it's
conservative podcasts and mediais so much more prevalent and
available and accessible nowthan liberal sort of more
left-wing views as well.
I saw something the other day.
It was only Noah Taylor, Ithink, was the only sort of
(19:12):
left-wing podcast host or keymedia person at the moment who
was in the top ten of the mostlistened to sites and things
like that, and that in itself isconcerning, because that's then
where people have to search outto find different opinions and
you know more liberal opinionsas well.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
And so if there are, if there are people, if there
are men that are struggling withthat um, that place and that
purpose because they're havingto share um so much of those
that space and responsibilities,even family responsibilities,
whatever it might be, I guessthat uncertainty, with this
resentment building and shameand confusion, and again I can't
relate.
(19:51):
I cannot and again, I can onlyread and go really Okay, really
Okay, like we can't just movepast it and evolve and grow some
emotional intelligence.
But what's happening is that,rather than growing that
emotional intelligence and um,but, but what's happening is
that, rather than growing thatemotional intelligence and
finding a way and creating new,a new space for everybody, it's
now young men are listening topeople who go oh, you feel
(20:14):
powerless, women are to blame.
Um, yeah, not respected.
Then you just have to dominateand be the louder voice or
feeling uncertain, don't, don'tbe vulnerable, take control,
you're in charge.
Uh, be the loud voice and it's,it's obnoxious, and then guess
who has to deal with the frontof it.
Yeah, yeah, you think aboutschools.
(20:35):
I think, like all of the all ofthe conversation I've had about
toxic masculinity and young menand students in schools are all
from female teachers, andthey're the ones that are
struggling with it the most, yetthey're the ones that have the
ability to deal with it, and Isay ability One.
It's not our responsibility andit's not their responsibility.
(20:57):
But as teachers, you want tomake sure that you're growing
good human beings and trying tomake the world around you a
better place.
But what power do they have tomake any changes with those
young men, particularly whenthey are so driven by the group,
the mob?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
but norell dutton says that teachers have all the
power.
They're just indoctrinatingkids left, right and center.
So you know how could this bepossible?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I I just, I I'm just stuttering, I don't, I don't
have any, I don't have any, Idon't have any words.
He makes no sense For me.
I'm just like hey, mate, justtell us your policies.
You know, we don't need to doall this other shit where you're
trying to frighten the shit outof people.
We don't need to do that.
I need to bring Jacinta alongto say she's going to do an
audit of Aboriginal programs andto make Australia great again.
(21:45):
Sis, when's Australia beengreat for you?
Are you out of your mind?
What the actual hell is shetalking about?
I just shake my head and go.
Surely no one's listening tothis.
Surely we're all smart at this.
I think we're smarter than this.
The problem is that I don'tthink Peter Dutton thinks that.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
I think he thinks we're stupid at and thinks that
I think he thinks we're stupid.
Or, like Trump, he loves theuneducated because less chance
to question.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
If we keep people in a state where they are not able
to critically assess informationor digest it, absorb it.
It really is just like criticalthinking skills.
That's a really big thing,that's a really big part of our
curriculum.
Then if we don't have that,then we won't question stupid
(22:28):
things that he says.
What are we doing right now?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
Wildfire is about sparkingmeaningful conversations that
matter to Ember Connect'smembers and allies.
This podcast creates a space toamplify voices, share stories
and explore topics that drivechange, connection and personal
and professional growth.
By bringing these conversationsto life, we aim to inspire
action, deepen understanding andstrengthen the collective
(23:03):
impact of the ember connectnetwork.
A huge thanks to our guests forsharing their knowledge,
insights, time and passion.
Yeah, no wonder I want to rantCoffee shit.
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