November 5, 2025 • 45 mins
Episode 18 of Wired Together, “Ctrl + Alt + Deceive,” explores the history of fake news—from snake-oil salesmen and the Brooklyn Bridge scam to yellow journalism—and connects it to today’s AI deepfakes and viral misinformation. Jason and Melanie share simple ways to spot manipulation, why local, trusted voices matter, and how future “authenticators” could help. A friendly chat about discernment, tech culture, and the importance of teaching truth from trickery.
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🎧 Wired Together is produced by WinternetWeb Technologies, a family-run web design and tech studio based in Bracey, Virginia.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Melanie (00:07):
Welcome, it is episode eighteen of Wired Together with
uh your host, Melanie Winter.
Jason (00:15):
And Jason Winter.
Melanie (00:17):
And um I will actually say the the title of this one,
it'll be on um on the screen,but also it's just fun.
Control alt deceive.
Jason (00:26):
Yeah, definitely um definitely kind of interesting,
and it will make sense as we goalong.
Melanie (00:32):
But so yeah, we're not necessarily beating a dead
horse, but you know, we we havebeen mentioning um more than
once on um you know the fakenessof AI and um you know how do we
navigate through this, how dowe navigate cons?
That we, you know.
Jason (00:50):
Sure.
Melanie (00:51):
Um so we have mentioned this in in small little
tidbits.
Um this is kind of more of adeep dive.
And it is um, I'm gonna callthis one a fun fact day.
Jason (01:03):
Yeah.
Melanie (01:04):
So we we've done some some digging.
Jason (01:07):
Kind of looking historically, like, you know, if
AI is used this way now, whenit first came out, oh, that's
cool.
And then all of a sudden now,you know, even your grandparents
or your kids will be like, oh,that's AI.
And it's like, wait, you're nowusing that word?
Melanie (01:21):
You know, it it evolved very quickly, but yeah, it's
kind of well in our premises,everything's just kind of a
sandwich on itself.
So, you know, uh pretty muchhow we operate with uh wired
together and Winternet Web is isthat old and new foundation.
So um technology is really justthings that have um changed
(01:43):
either make our life easier orharder throughout throughout
history.
Um, but for the same thing,it's it the human experience,
the the history is still verymuch the same.
Jason (01:55):
We love the history, it really kind of puts things in
perspective.
It does.
And so, you know, as as we'vedone this before or people
raising kids in 2025.
Melanie (02:05):
Um we use a lot of history, uh, our personal
histories, you know, especiallywhen it comes to that kind of
thing.
Where, you know, we want toteach uh certain things that are
just um have always been right,you know, that um that real
true foundation.
(02:25):
So, you know, um that spiritualfoundation, that belief system,
um, you know, who we are aspeople.
And um so our our children areyou know, they they learn a lot
about these things, not just inthe tech technological world,
but you know, it's a deeperdive.
Jason (02:43):
Sure.
Melanie (02:44):
So, you know, the human matters in the whole thing.
And so, you know, one thingthat you know that we kind of
get a lot of that these days,nowadays, yeah, um, you know, is
this you know, so we do live inan area where um we've got more
(03:05):
retirees than we really havethat young family.
Um, and so um a lot of youknow, when technology just kind
of has gone way beyond whereyou're oh sure.
Jason (03:16):
Which your the comfort level.
Melanie (03:18):
Right.
Your comfort level is, youknow, it it all of a sudden
becomes, you know, well, I don'tbelieve anything, you know, I'm
I'm I'm done with all of it.
I'm done with these days, I'mdone with and so we kind of
wanted to go into are we reallybeing duped now more than ever?
Right with cons, withtechnology, with you know,
(03:39):
what's what's happening now?
Um, where things are, you know,it's not hard to con people now
because you can con themonline.
You don't even have to seethem.
Jason (03:48):
With the technology, it makes it that much more, I
guess, ubiquitous.
It's right they can reallyreach you quite.
Melanie (03:54):
And so it does kind of see feel very forefronted, it
does feel very, you know,violating.
Um, and so yes, I totally agreewith that being a you know,
that's terrifying.
Jason (04:05):
Yeah, definitely.
Melanie (04:06):
Um, and so you know, that's kind of Winternet Web is
is here to help.
Yeah, in that when, you know,when things are don't look
right, don't feel right, guesswhat, they're not.
Jason (04:19):
Um call your your we're reached out.
Melanie (04:23):
Call your most trusted, valuable person that knows
technology and and ask if that'snot right, because if it feels
not right, it's not.
Um, but you know, look, are wejust only duped now?
Not necessarily.
Jason (04:36):
I don't think so.
I've I've had plenty ofexamples, and you know, I know
you're talking historically, butI got a comical one if you want
to hear it.
Sure.
Um, I mean this is geez, ouroldest daughter was um maybe
two, three, I guess.
And oh, I know.
Yeah.
So, and you know, lookingonline, finding Christmas gifts
(04:57):
and everything, and I find thesebeanbags, I'm like, she would
love to like lounge in a beanbag in the living room, read a
book, whatever.
So I'm looking at a bunch ofthem, and you know, of course
you look at one, then you'rescrolling and looking through a
bunch.
And then I almost decided onone.
And then in like the otherproducts you may like, I saw an
Elmo one.
So I was like, Alright, let meclick on that one instead.
(05:19):
I'm like, oh, that's perfect.
Add to cart order.
Like, good.
Pretty good price, 25 bucks.
Elmo bean bag and everything.
So it showed up in the mail,and it was about the size of a
small orange.
And I'm looking at that and I'mlike, how how criminal?
(05:42):
Like, and then I'm sittingthere thinking, but I didn't
read the reviews.
And now, see, I read reviewsprobably a lot more now because
of that story.
But I read the reviews- I thinkyou read reviews.
I read the re I read thereviews of the other ones.
I just got trigger happy andwent, no, I don't know about the
unicorn, you know, or whatever.
Elmo, that one, click, youknow, figuring they're all the
(06:03):
same.
But no, I was wrong.
I have no idea, um, you know,whether looking back, whether it
actually gave the dimensions,you know, probably gave it in
millimeters or something.
Oh, that looks big.
And um, but yeah, so I have a$25, you know, I could put it on
a keychain, you know, prettymuch.
Melanie (06:19):
So she doesn't have a beanbag or didn't.
Right.
Really doesn't now, but umpretty much a hacky sack.
Yep.
Jason (06:28):
Yeah, it's about hacky sack, yep.
So, yeah.
Those things happen though.
Melanie (06:33):
So, you know, we we do get duped.
Jason (06:35):
Yeah, we do.
Melanie (06:36):
You know, um this I do remember the idea of being duped
as a small child, not um, youknow, being from here.
I didn't see a whole lot ofpeople I wasn't, you know,
didn't already know or wasn'talready related to, you know.
Jason (06:56):
Sure.
Melanie (06:56):
And and not that we were that closed off, but you
know, you do living in a smallarea, you're you know, you're
familiar with where you're goingand people and stuff like that.
Um and as a young child, wewent to uh New York City.
Jason (07:12):
New York City.
Melanie (07:14):
It was uh Christmas, it was kind of that Christmas time
period when we went to theRockefeller Center and all of
that.
Jason (07:20):
How incredibly terrifying.
No.
Melanie (07:22):
Well, it as a small child from from the six, it was
uh it was terrifying.
Right.
I mean, I mean it's it's likebut you know, I I had my parents
and you know they had been soyou know they traveled and all,
and it's and you know it's whatit is.
Definitely familiar withcities, so I was I I felt like I
was with trusted people, but itwas the first time I actually
learned about like the theduping on the streets, the the
(07:45):
people that would you know standthere with the cases or uh in
their jackets of trench coatsalesmen.
Items of you know, watches andstuff like that, and they're not
real, they're they're fake.
Jason (07:57):
Right, yeah.
Melanie (07:57):
And so, you know, I remember my father explaining
that you know they're they'reselling these things, but
they're not real, you know.
Right.
So they're saying uh I don'tremember the watch, it's big
time watch at the time.
Jason (08:09):
Uh the Psycho um Rolex.
Rolex, yes.
So it's like it's supposed tobe Rolexes, but they're not like
a thousand dollar Rolex.
That kind of thing.
Melanie (08:19):
And and I'd never seen something like that before.
I did not know that kind ofthing existed.
And you know, to me, the ofcourse, as far as shopping and
you know, um brand names wasnothing.
Right.
I didn't even think about it,but you know, it it's it's a
thing, you know, to to like thebrands of stuff, and and so you
know, being explained, well,this is a fake watch.
(08:42):
It's like it looks like a watchto me.
Jason (08:44):
Yeah, it looks like I saw it.
You showed it to me, right?
Melanie (08:49):
So I remember being very confused, but also, you
know, that was that first kindof concept of you know, I guess
that con.
Yeah, when you then you realizeit could happen, you know, wow,
I need on the streets.
Jason (09:03):
Gosh, that's interesting.
Melanie (09:05):
So, you know, we're kind of talking in that
historical nature of beingconned, right, you know, or or
being duped, or you know, thefake news of things.
Jason (09:17):
Sure, sure.
Melanie (09:18):
And you know, um, I mean, we've all been to a
carnival.
Jason (09:22):
Well, yeah, and those games are rigged, as we all
know.
Right.
Um, and it's like, look, see medo it.
Yeah, because you're standingbehind the table and you're at
that angle or whatever, youknow.
Melanie (09:32):
You know, and like magic shows and stuff like that.
It's technically just duping,you know, but it's cut her in
half.
Doing it in such a way that'syou know, at least fantastic,
you know, fantastic andinteresting, and you're
entertained.
Exactly.
And just like the the fellas onthe New York streets, you know,
it's entertaining.
Um, you know, most people wereignoring them, you know.
Jason (09:53):
Because they know, right, yeah, it's kind of it loses
its, yeah.
Melanie (09:58):
You know, it's kind of an old world kind of concept.
And of course, they're nottrying to dupe you online, like
you know, with your story withthe beanbag, you know, it's it
oops, we did purchase somethingthat was not even close to the
you know what we thought.
Jason (10:14):
Right.
Melanie (10:15):
But um, yes, uh so kind of going into like the fun
facts of cons through history.
Jason (10:22):
Yeah.
Melanie (10:23):
Um, so like the earliest kind of notable con.
Um, and and you can pronouncethat.
Jason (10:32):
Oh, it is it's uh Hedistratus, some we were
cousins.
Um Hegestratus.
Hedestratus, I guess.
It's Greek to me.
Melanie (10:38):
Hedgey.
Hedgee sounds like a great, youknow.
Jason (10:41):
Hedgey, yeah.
Melanie (10:41):
That's what I want to call him.
Jason (10:42):
Good old hedgy.
Yeah, it's Greek to me.
I mean, literally.
But about 300 BC, so we're kindof doing some research
historically on, you know, isthis concept more part of the
modern era or how frequent isthe duping, if you will?
So this guy was a sea merchant,and he took out a loan on his
ship and the cargo and all thatkind of stuff, and uh then after
(11:06):
selling the cargo, he pocketedthe loan money.
And because as far as thearrangement, if the ship ever
sunk, he would get, you know,his money back and all that kind
of mess.
So then he uh decided to sinkthe ship.
He was caught in the act, andhis crew, um you know, I well
(11:29):
while he was trying to escape, Idrowned him, so he didn't get
away with it, I guess.
Right.
Melanie (11:36):
Um was not a very good connection.
Jason (11:39):
No, I mean, you know, hopefully someone took notes and
was like, I could have donethat better.
Melanie (11:42):
Right.
But you know, but it's not nota surprising thing for a con to
be about money, of course.
Jason (11:48):
Oh, yeah, usually it is.
It's the currency we all want.
Melanie (11:52):
Not a new concept.
It is this is a very oldconcept.
We were talking, you know, 300BC.
Yeah, so that's you know, um,yeah, some people will do
anything for money.
Jason (12:03):
That's right.
Melanie (12:04):
And you know, so that's the you know, like the lost air
people.
Um yeah, um, yeah, I know allover the place, especially it's
it's more notable in the kingsand queens and that kind of
thing.
You know, there'll be this lostair that comes out.
Jason (12:21):
Um, if you win a lottery ticket now, you'll find family
you didn't know you had.
I mean, exactly.
It's like I don't think I knowyou don't think right.
Melanie (12:30):
Well, it happened in De Carnegie too, you know, and so
sometimes in in American historyfinancial right, and that
financial pain is it's you know,that taste of something like
that, you know.
So people con all the time, onyou know, especially with money.
Jason (12:45):
Right.
Melanie (12:45):
Um, which you know brings us to our next con
artist, which would be like themost notable of you know,
historical con artists.
Yeah.
The snake oil salesman.
Jason (12:58):
Oh, yeah.
The snake oil, yeah, that'sjust snake oil.
Right.
And we say it all the time.
Melanie (13:03):
It's actually as a person who started the original,
yes.
Um, Clark Stanley.
Okay.
Um, he is considered theoriginal snake oil salesman.
He actually was selling a snakeoil that was supposed to just
do anything for you, you know,heal you of all your ills.
Jason (13:22):
He did it for us popular, well.
Melanie (13:23):
And um, so we're talking like eighty late 1800s.
Jason (13:28):
Okay.
Melanie (13:28):
Um, that kind of time period.
Jason (13:31):
In a time period where, like, if we were to talk to,
say, our elders, if you will,that they would they would talk
about things are much morewholesome when I was a child, or
you know, but of course theyweren't a child in 1800.
Everybody was wholesome back inthe day.
You know, and it was kind oflike this thought process, but
we're inundated with it now.
But back then, you knew whoyour snake oil salesman was.
(13:53):
You knew who, you know, oh, hetook a loan on his uh, you know,
ship a kind of person.
Right.
So you kind of know thesepeople almost by name, but I
guess when it all gets together,it well, I believe he was a
traveling salesman, so that'sprobably why he was able to be.
He left town, went somewhereelse, and he wasn't somebody
people were familiar with.
Melanie (14:13):
I got you.
He was traveling, and so thatwas the time period of traveling
salesman, which you know was areally great thing.
Jason (14:19):
I think there's an episode on uh um Wheelhouse in a
prayer we saw.
Remember the guy with the wagonshowed up and they were trying
to sell something and all that,and it was kind of you know the
the hesitancy of all of that.
Melanie (14:30):
Well, yeah, you'd become hesitant when you've got
the small group and you trusteverybody in the group, and then
all of a sudden this new guycomes in.
Jason (14:36):
Yeah, it's like who are you?
Are you really gonna trusteverything that they say?
Melanie (14:40):
So well, Clark Stanley made sure that no.
Okay, you should not trusteverything they say.
Jason (14:46):
Right, what a snake.
Melanie (14:47):
Um and the snake oil ended up being like that they
were able to like break it down,and it was just mineral oil
with some additives like beeffat and turpiton, you know.
It was not anything that was umgoing to actually help you.
Jason (15:02):
Right.
But it feels so nice.
So well.
What else we got?
Who else has really beenpivotal, would you say?
Melanie (15:13):
Oh, and what and you could most of us have or I guess
may have heard, uh, some haveheard the the Brooklyn Bridge
salesman.
Jason (15:23):
Oh, yeah, I remember something about the uh selling
the Brooklyn Bridge and So thisis more of the 1860s, um George
C.
Melanie (15:30):
Parker.
And uh we're getting at thattime period a lot of immigrants,
um not English speakers, youknow, coming to America.
Jason (15:41):
Yeah, hoping hoping to right.
Melanie (15:43):
They're already being told, you know, before they
come, you know, um, you've gotcheap land and you've got you
know lots of opportunities andstuff like that.
So he's actually using a lot ofthat concept and the fact that
they're you know new and tryingto sell things like the Brooklyn
Bridge.
He did more than just theBrooklyn Bridge, but for the
(16:03):
most part, he was considered theBrooklyn Bridge salesman.
Jason (16:06):
Right, he was that guy, yeah.
Melanie (16:07):
He would pretend that he and with paperwork that he
owned the Brooklyn Bridge andtrying to sell it to these
immigrants.
Oh wow, and so they thoughtthey would get something cheap
that was really big and thatwould be, you know, they would
get something from it.
Jason (16:21):
Sure, yeah.
Melanie (16:22):
And so he sold it more times over.
Jason (16:24):
So Right, exactly.
Melanie (16:26):
You know, mean, very, very mean to take money from
these people that are justtrying to start a a new excited
about a concept and uh in a newair land and that kind of thing.
So he he obviously considered avery, very bad fraud.
Jason (16:44):
Man, that's crazy.
Melanie (16:45):
You know, so it's like is this fake news, this lack of
truth?
Right new.
Jason (16:55):
And so it doesn't appear to be.
Melanie (16:57):
I did find a couple of very interesting quotes, and so
it's kind of in that taking theidea of these days.
Is it just these days?
And and um, so one is fromPascal, you know, the 17th
century mathematician.
Um, you know, we named acomputer program like, you know,
(17:18):
very important guy.
Jason (17:20):
Right.
Melanie (17:20):
Um he's got a quote that's truth is so obscure in
these times, and falsehood soestablished that unless we love
the truth, we cannot know it.
And that was like six hundredyears ago or right, and he's
talking again these times.
Jason (17:39):
So Yeah.
Melanie (17:40):
Where is the truth right now?
You know, and so he's but he'sin the 17th century, and he's
still asking, where is thetruth?
Jason (17:47):
I'm sorry, four I ironically, I didn't do math
very well on the mathematician'squote.
That is ironic.
Melanie (17:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Jason (17:53):
I can do math.
Melanie (17:54):
He would be very disappointed.
Jason (17:56):
Well, he's he's rolling over in his group, and of course
we know George Olwell.
Melanie (18:02):
You know, oh yeah um a little bit more a little bit
newer as far as the 1940s.
Um and his his quote that Ifound that um was also very
interesting in a time ofuniversal deceit, telling the
truth is a revolutionary act.
Jason (18:21):
In a time of a universal deceit.
Melanie (18:24):
Again, they're both talking about their time period.
I know, and it's like they feeldeceived, they feel like things
are untrue in their timeperiod, which is not unlike
today.
Jason (18:35):
I mean, just no, and I know we've talked about it, I
don't know if it's come up onthe podcast, but how it's like
every generation, it's like oh,the generation this day is this
generation these days, orwhatever, or you know, we forget
that sometimes things are in aloop, you know.
It passes through, you know,you kind of learn the hard way
or whatever, and then youunderstand, and then you pass
(18:57):
that along with you know, it'sso time hasn't really is time a
string or is time a sandwich?
Melanie (19:04):
So it's kind of you know, we do kind of layer
ourselves on top of it, youknow, itself.
And so it does kind of createmore of a sandwich style.
Is fake news new?
Jason (19:15):
Right.
Melanie (19:16):
And and well, if you research and do your research on
um, you know, we read somearticles and stuff like that.
No, fake news is not new atall.
It's not even a little bit new.
Um you want to take the thefirst one.
Jason (19:31):
Yeah, I so in the fake news category, I guess, looking
back at Egypt in the 13thcentury BC, um uh Ramesses the
Great, they had a battle of theKadesh and it was a crushing
victory, um is what it wasportrayed as.
It was actually a stalemate,but that didn't stop him from
(19:54):
making all the battle scenes andthe way that they're painted on
the temples to kind of bolsterthis image.
So the visual propagandashowing the story, and of
course, so Ramesses is liketelling all his people, we won!
Yeah, we yeah, we and we beatthem, and they you know and um
but it no, it wasn't really so.
Of course, you know, it it itshows glory to, I guess, that
(20:17):
dynasty, if you will, and itkind of makes it um it controls
that narrative of war.
So what else we got?
Melanie (20:26):
And you've got um Mark Antony and Octavian are
campaigning against one another,and so there becomes this
political campaign, and youknow, uh, we're talking 31 BC,
so we're talking, you know, sometime ago, we're talking
politics, we're talking apolitical campaign, you know,
there's this accusation uh thewhat do you call it, the the
(20:48):
negative uh the smear campaignwhere you're you know gonna
smear your opponent.
So um they displayed MarkAnthony as as you know drunken
and weak and um you know uh justa terrible person.
And so the the smear campaignis is not new either.
(21:09):
That is not a new concept of ofhuman history, right?
Especially, you know, we gotour uh democracy, the idea of
voting and and um you know fordifferent candidates from
ancient Greece.
We did, and so and ancient Romepicked that up as well, and so
(21:30):
we've got you know that earlyconcept of sabotage towards
campaigners and stuff like that.
That was there is nothing newunder the sun.
Oh, I know that's what's goingon nowadays.
It seems worse, but onlybecause we're in it.
Yeah, and we're but you know,at the time of you know, yes,
(21:51):
the Shakespearean play with thedeath of Caesar, that's a real
story, dude.
They would kill him.
You know, the the politicalopponent that's you know getting
too big for his breeches, we'regonna get rid of him.
You know, that's not uncommon.
Jason (22:05):
Right.
Sure.
So yeah, so the politicalrealm, of course, had its own
set of, I guess, manipulation oftruths.
Um commercially also.
Um we had the great moon hoaxin 1835.
So the the New York Sunpublished a newspaper with
(22:27):
articles claiming that uhHerschel, the astronomer,
discovered life on the moon.
And it included vegetation,animals, you know, all these
things.
Melanie (22:37):
Well I believe there was pictures.
Yeah, I mean yeah, they maybecome up with pictures later, but
it just looked very of course,you know.
Jason (22:46):
I mean, if if that happened now, we'd be like,
really?
But I'm or we wouldn't, itwould go, no, that's fake.
But it was fictional, and itwas designed to, of course, make
people subscribe to newspaper,or of course to boost sales of
it.
So you have that motive aswell.
Melanie (22:59):
And that was, you know, but you know it became
especially at that time period,and we've fast forward quite a
bit to the 1900s, but you know,newspaper sales became you know
something that everybody wasstriving for.
Oh, sure.
Um anything you could do tosell a newspaper, anything you
could do to, you know, kind ofget your your voice out there
(23:23):
and become influential andprominent, you know.
Jason (23:27):
I said it tabloids later.
Melanie (23:29):
Right.
Well, yeah, that became reallybig deal.
And um, you know, it of coursewe all learn this in school, the
the idea of yellow journalismthat comes up.
Um we learn it in and you know,we kind of do scrape over it a
little bit.
Um you know, I think ineducation there are certain
(23:54):
things where, yeah, we're gonnarepeat, we're gonna scrape over,
you know, um certain parts ofAmerican history.
Jason (24:01):
Yeah.
Melanie (24:02):
Uh, I feel like this one would probably be a worth a
real good classroom.
This would be a good unit to agood unit, or at least, you
know, real one good day of youknow, really discussing why is
yellow journalism terrifying.
Jason (24:18):
Yeah.
Melanie (24:18):
You know, um, which it came about, you know, starting
pretty much the the propagandathat started the
Spanish-American War.
So, you know, a war pretty muchbroke out in the advent of um
or everything that's puttogether, yeah.
We created the name later, Ithink, but you know, in in that
whole concept of you know, weneed to use this platform that
(24:43):
we have to support somethingthat we're gonna create, right,
such as the Spanish-AmericanWar.
So it got the newspaper umdefinitely out there, but what
it also did was kind of givethat idea for a lot of readers
this isn't something I trustanymore.
Jason (25:04):
Right.
They they use their power.
Melanie (25:07):
There ended up being kind of the backlash of the
yellow journalism that all of asudden the those big newspapers
that were really beinginfluential became less and less
um used for you know by thecommon third.
Jason (25:22):
Yeah, people just didn't trust it, so you know.
Melanie (25:24):
So little newspapers kind of shot up all over the
place.
Um I see localizing everythinggave those um readers something
to to trust.
Jason (25:37):
Okay.
Melanie (25:38):
Because if you've got you know a newspaper that, you
know, has you know our area'sweather and you know our local
uh high school sports and youknow that kind of thing, you
know, it that's moretrustworthy.
You know, I actually do knowthat that was true.
Jason (25:55):
Right.
Melanie (25:56):
You know, I I know that kid that ran that you know 40
yards.
Jason (26:00):
And you probably know the staff, you know, you know the
families and everyone that'smentioned in it.
Melanie (26:05):
So yes, and so there becomes this kind of more
localized um understanding ofokay, well, if we've got the
local newspapers and we've gotthe local uh relationship, now
anything that they say that isstate or national, right?
They're trusted because theyare trusted as um people already
(26:27):
because they're you knowputting the things that are
localized.
Jason (26:30):
True.
Melanie (26:30):
I I trust a local newspaper, therefore if they're
publishing national stuff, thenthat's which of course after
that time period pops up intoWorld War II, World War I into,
but World War II, you know,where your local newspapers are
putting a lot more nationalsituations going on.
(26:51):
Everybody needs to know what'sgoing on with the war.
Jason (26:53):
Yeah, I mean, becoming a lot more globalized, and you
kind of need to know what's soyeah, yeah.
Melanie (26:59):
That's great that you know the the local sports team
did all right, but you know,what happened?
Jason (27:03):
Right.
Melanie (27:04):
What happened to Germany?
What's going on?
Jason (27:06):
You know, I need to know.
Melanie (27:07):
And so from there it kind of got bigger and bigger
again, where we go from newsgetting very localized so that
it doesn't get you know, wedon't get too much propaganda.
Jason (27:17):
Sure.
Melanie (27:18):
Then after World War II, it was kind of like the
propaganda machine built itselfback up, right?
And then of course we fastforward to you know the the
2000s and and to now wherepropaganda machine got you know
just massive.
But we know this.
We are aware of the fact that alot of um trusted news sources,
(27:44):
you know, are um kind ofgetting a lot of the same news,
maybe not all of that's right.
Um I'm sitting there going,everything's faked.
But you know, we did we didalso, we're in 2025 now.
We live through five years ofCOVID.
Jason (28:01):
We do.
Melanie (28:02):
You get to that point where what do you believe?
Jason (28:05):
You start wondering, okay, what's actually going on?
You know, how do I determinewhether this is true or
something?
Melanie (28:09):
You get new sources from here, you get new sources
from here.
Jason (28:12):
And it always conflicts, and it's like very conflicting.
Who is correct?
Melanie (28:16):
Is it local?
Is it national?
Jason (28:17):
Is it worldly where is this coming from?
Melanie (28:20):
And and then it got really twisted from there.
And so um the the article thatwe got, some of this um more
fake news stuff uh fromPolitico, it kind of it was
written in 2016, so it's nottoday's time, right?
So it's it's before all of theum uh maybe slightly crazier
(28:44):
news setting that started in2020.
Polarization of everythingbeing so um, but it's it's
pretty much like throwing in thetowel at the the end of the
article is saying, you know, umeverybody's getting more and
more news sources from socialmedia and and fake news is is
(29:05):
gonna be just an accepted idea.
Jason (29:07):
Right.
Well and so that's kind of it'shard not to encounter it every
day now.
Right.
Right.
And that was almost 10 yearsago, too.
Right.
Melanie (29:22):
So in 2016, that's almost ten years ago.
So today's time of of 2025going into 2026, not too long
from now, you know, we'reactually starting to see a
difference now in what fake newsis creating.
And what it's creating is is somany non believers that now
(29:47):
truth is just kind of shot.
So, which may be a good thing.
Jason (29:53):
What do you mean by that?
Melanie (29:54):
Well, it kind of in the that whole idea of yellow
journalism where you know whereyou are Um you know, talking
about the they are able tocreate a war off of propaganda,
let's pull back.
Jason (30:09):
Yeah, I see.
Melanie (30:11):
So let's let's not trust these few very large
newspapers and and pull backinto a local concept.
Maybe that's where we kind ofneed to be.
We need to understand truth ona a different scale than what we
started with.
Jason (30:31):
Yeah, I mean, certainly being being in groups and you
know, kind of embracing yourlocal area and being able to get
information out is important,but I think part of the
challenge with that, the methodsin which we do that is still in
mainstream far-reaching method.
I mean, you know, say socialmedia.
Melanie (30:53):
But it's gotten so fake you believe nothing.
Jason (30:55):
Right.
I know.
Melanie (30:56):
Which again, maybe it's a a great answer.
Jason (31:01):
And it it's the problem too, you're hiding behind a
profile.
Would we act differentlyspeaking face to face?
Melanie (31:08):
Well yeah.
Jason (31:08):
Would we act differently actually writing out something?
You know that extra hint ofhumanity with that you know, are
we lying to ourselves just asmuch as lying to someone else
when we feel like what we'resaying isn't even I mean, we
know it's not real.
But does it really feel realwhen you're using it through a
(31:31):
platform that you you're kind ofhiding behind?
It it it in itself isn'ttangible.
So what does that meanpsychologically?
Are we I don't know.
Because I mean you see a lot ofpeople posting stuff online and
making comments about that, andyou kind of go, I wouldn't say
that, but what do they gottalose?
(31:53):
You know?
Melanie (31:54):
Right.
Jason (31:55):
Well, they don't know these people exactly, so there's
specifically there's no tie.
Melanie (32:00):
Which is kind of maybe what might bring us back into
truth is a little more in frontof you.
Truth is um or or you know, wecan go with Plato.
Okay, what about um Plato'sidea of truth.
Um again, you know, ancienthistory is fascinating because
(32:25):
they're really still dealingwith the same thing.
Sure.
The human understanding.
Jason (32:30):
Right.
Melanie (32:30):
Um, so obviously Plato is a Greek philosopher.
And the truth for Plato is theunchanging of reality.
So um I'll go ahead anddirectly quote the philosopher
is in love with the philosopheris in love with truth.
That is not with the changingworld of sensation, which is an
(32:56):
object of opinion, but with anunchanging reality, which is the
object of knowledge.
So that unchanging reality,that human spirit, that um what
makes us truth, you know, whatmakes us real, that is the
(33:16):
thing, and and I don't thinkPlato's wrong at all in this,
that that is that's the truth.
Jason (33:21):
Yeah.
Melanie (33:22):
Those those sensationalized bits.
I think that's when we need totake pause when something's, you
know, when it's too good to betrue.
Right.
Oh, I mean, exactly.
Yeah, you know, and and thoselittle, especially in the pol
politics and stuff like that, ifit looks like, oh, that really
fits what I think, you probablyfake.
(33:43):
You know what that neither oneare gonna fit what you think.
The truth is somewhere in thething that maybe makes you
slightly uncomfortable becausethat is politics.
Yeah, exactly.
If you're not slightlyuncomfortable on one side or the
other, then you're believingSnakeal.
You know, it should be, youknow, truth is not always
(34:03):
delicious.
It's it's gonna be, you know,it's gonna have some some sour
in there somewhere.
Jason (34:10):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Melanie (34:11):
And it's gonna be something that's you know, more
trusted in that, you know,unchanging idea.
Jason (34:21):
Yeah.
So what do you think the fixwith with all this is like how
how do you see the future sincethis is what we're dealing with?
And of course, um, you know, wewere talking a little bit about
initially with AI and how thereare videos that aren't real.
(34:44):
Um we've talked about storiesthat aren't real, there are
products going to New York orwherever, things that aren't
real.
Where do we go if we can'ttrust anything?
Like what what how do we how dowe combat this?
Melanie (34:59):
Well, just like when you um are are taking in Bible
study.
When you read the Bible, youcan't just um read it in tiny
little pieces.
Jason (35:10):
Right.
Melanie (35:10):
Um, so you of course we do, and we put you know, verses
out there um that meansomething to us.
And you know, you're taking andyou're extracting from the sure
the story itself, but at somepoint that's the the truth is in
the story, the whole thing.
And if it doesn't kind of havea um if it's not repeated, like
(35:34):
like a backing to something.
Yeah, if it doesn't havebacking, if it's not constant,
then um, then it's just a piece.
Jason (35:42):
Okay.
Melanie (35:42):
Then it's just a uh one idea, it's not the whole thing.
Jason (35:46):
Right.
Melanie (35:46):
The whole thing needs backing, it needs all of it.
Um it's so it needs to kind ofkeep showing up.
Jason (35:51):
Sure.
Melanie (35:51):
Kind of the same thing with reality versus we'll go
with AI reality, where it's youknow, if it has no real backing,
yeah, you you pretty much, youknow, know that that's there's
nothing true about it.
Jason (36:07):
Right.
Melanie (36:08):
And you know, we do need to to teach.
Um, we do as much as we can andrepeat ourselves um way too
often.
Jason (36:18):
Right.
Melanie (36:19):
But you know, we do need to teach that discernment,
um, especially when they'reyoung.
Jason (36:23):
Yeah.
Melanie (36:24):
Um, we do that too, our kids so they roll their eyes,
but you know, I I want to makesure that they know that not
everything you see is true.
Jason (36:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Melanie (36:31):
And and so we we need to teach discernment, we need to
teach um critical thinkingskills.
And and we do need to make surethat we are putting a lot of
effort into teaching thosecritical thinking skills, not
just, you know, um you can'talways believe what you hear,
but you know, really dig deep inwhy is this wrong?
Jason (36:54):
Sure.
Melanie (36:55):
You know, why would you believe something like this?
You know, that kind of thing.
Really dig deep in everythingthat you hear because you know,
a lot of it's gonna bepropaganda.
Jason (37:04):
Yeah, and and like you talked about having a backing,
everything you do here, you kindof try to attach it to
something you're comfortablewith or familiar with, or you
know, where do I put this?
And if it's just out of leftfield doesn't make sense, and
that's something to wonderabout, and you got to ask the
questions what's the motivation?
Why would someone say this?
You know, you know, where's thecredibility?
(37:24):
And you just need to learnthose skills.
Melanie (37:27):
Right.
So and and the most tangibleanswer is, you know, I'm almost
positive that for a new job insociety is gonna be
authenticators.
And authenticators, so someonethat evaluates and I used to
(37:48):
sell um, you know, vintagefurniture, uh antiques, things
like that.
In the antique world, um,people can authenticate your
antique.
Sure.
Um, they can authenticate youryour papers, uh, things like
that.
There's very, very small groupof people that have that
capability of um digging intoand and knowing this kind of
(38:14):
stuff.
You know, we've got wonderfulshows on, you know, the TV with
you know authenticators thatsure like like like anti-gro
show.
Anti-grocho.
Um and what's the newer one?
Jason (38:25):
It's uh pawn stars.
Melanie (38:30):
Pawn stars, that's it.
Exactly.
And and so they'll authenticatethe things that you know people
have brought in.
Jason (38:36):
Sure.
Melanie (38:37):
I think that we will um you know find more and more um
job opportunities for peoplethat really have a niche, they
know something just really,really well, right.
They become authenticators.
Jason (38:55):
And it makes sense.
I mean, kind of having a a bigbroad knowledge about something
specific.
I know that sounds almost likea a paradox, but um being able
to discern, being able to be theuh the referee or whatever,
saying, Okay, yes, this is real,this is not.
Um maybe I guess legalinstances or right.
Melanie (39:18):
I mean, you have fake videos, the fake pictures, the
the paperwork, um, you can fakehistory.
Jason (39:24):
Yeah, fake paperwork, exactly.
And it's like, hey, I mean,because we can make anything
look real, especially in thedigital world.
Here's a document.
I mean, how many times do wehave documents that we need to
send out and whatever?
You would have to analyze itand make sure that this is
actually to the code of thefile.
Yes, this was not fabricatedusing any means, you know.
Uh, but yeah, yeah, I cancertainly see that.
Melanie (39:48):
You've got lawyers, you've got, you know, um the
other people that are arefighting for constitution and
truth and things like that.
I think you're gonna haveauthenticators as an actual job
that you go around and make surethat things are actually true.
Jason (40:06):
Isn't it funny?
Because I mean, I just thinkback to say 15 years ago, we'd
look at the web to look upsomething to see if it was true.
Melanie (40:12):
Right.
Jason (40:13):
And now we're thinking about a new career to discern
whether what we find or interactwith is actually true.
Melanie (40:20):
Right.
Jason (40:21):
So again, full circle, times haven't changed.
Melanie (40:24):
Not really.
Jason (40:25):
I think I need to get a loan on a ship.
Melanie (40:27):
Uh no, no, no.
Jason (40:29):
I can get a loan on a ship I don't own, and it's easy.
You still have a soul and youneed to make sure that's
maintained.
Definitely, definitely.
Melanie (40:36):
So And so what I guess also what does it mean for AI?
Jason (40:40):
Right.
Melanie (40:41):
I mean you know, or we we use AI, AI is our fun
co-host.
It is, you know, or it's not toshove this whole concept aside.
Jason (40:53):
Not at all.
Melanie (40:54):
And I think at some point we just have to see it as
art.
Jason (40:59):
Yeah.
I mean, it is based on, I mean,you kind of need to interpret
it in some way too.
I guess kind of like art.
Melanie (41:08):
Mm-hmm.
And um art is is acommunication, it's an
interpretated, you know,interpretation of you know,
something that you're trying torelay to someone else.
Jason (41:19):
Right.
Melanie (41:19):
And so when we have fake out there on social media
or out there on the internet andstuff like that, right, you
know, it is art.
Jason (41:29):
And I think a big part of why um it's being used is
because I can create a video ormodify a video or audio or
whatever and make it seem sorealistic.
And and that that's themanipulative angle.
It's like this is believablebecause your eyes and your ears
say, wow, uh that's gotta betrue.
(41:51):
But there's art in the creationof that.
Melanie (41:55):
And so, you know, we can't, you know, just always be
afraid of it.
We can see it as art.
Yeah, definitely and see it asa communication in a way, you
know.
If you go into any um museumwith like really older or you
know, classic stuff, classicpaintings, that kind of thing,
you know, you look at theMadonna.
(42:17):
You know, half of them she'sblonde.
You know, which we know that'snot you know good old
Renaissance, right?
It's not even possible, it'snot true, but it's it's the eye
of the beholder, it's theinterpretation.
It's the relatable perspective,right?
So who who decided to paint it?
Yeah, it's not meant to showyou, you know, truth.
Jason (42:40):
Right.
Melanie (42:40):
It's meant to show you an interpretation, yeah.
Jason (42:43):
Exactly.
Melanie (42:43):
And in that interpretation, maybe a feeling.
Jason (42:46):
Sure.
Melanie (42:46):
And so I think we need to kind of go into this whole
new AI setting as it's not meantto be truth.
Jason (42:54):
Yeah.
Melanie (42:54):
It was never meant to be truth.
Jason (42:56):
Well, well, even in using it as a tool, they say, you
know, in other words, checkanything that's important, you
know, don't always check back.
You know, which again, thewhole purpose of using it as a
tool, just like on good we usedto say, oh, it's on the
internet, it must have beentrue.
Well, what do you think AI is?
It's scrubbing the internet andall the sources.
So if you don't true on theinternet, you won't know it's
(43:17):
not true on the answer.
Right.
If you don't know your answerwell enough to be able to tell
whether that's fact or fictionor, you know, inaccurate, then
maybe you should reconsider howyou're using it and to and to
check things.
But you know, it's just just toblame the technology, you know,
uh mindlessly, I don't think isa good approach.
Melanie (43:39):
Right.
I mean, keep going with the theauthenticity.
Yeah.
Um, those who are writingarticles, those who are sure,
you know, putting things outthere to really still dig into
historical fact and things likethat.
Keep putting that kind of stuffout there and and become an
authenticator and some reallydig deep into something that
(44:01):
you're very passionate about.
Jason (44:03):
Know your craft.
Melanie (44:04):
Be the authenticator for the the next shift.
Jason (44:07):
Be your library of Alexandria for what you're
passionate about, and then helpothers figure out what is what.
Melanie (44:14):
Yes, we need to always have those people that really
had that niche.
Jason (44:19):
Definitely.
Sounds good.
Well, that was that was prettyinteresting.
I learned a lot historically,and as far as um how a lot of
these things really have justplayed themselves century after
century, and you know, justdifferent scenarios.
Melanie (44:34):
Right.
And that's the whole thing isthere is no fake news under the
that's new under the sun.
Jason (44:41):
Right.
Melanie (44:41):
There is no con that's new under the sun.
Jason (44:43):
Yep, tail as old as time.
Melanie (44:45):
We do it differently now, but it's not new by any
means.
Jason (44:49):
Yep, different tool, but same thing.
Yep.
Melanie (44:52):
Same human.
Jason (44:53):
Same human, well, yeah.
Melanie (44:54):
Yeah.
Jason (44:55):
Exactly.
So all right.
Well, I think we're gonna wrapthings up and uh please review
or follow us on your favoriteplatform while you're there.
Just go ahead and take care ofit.
It really helps us get us outthere more, and uh always
appreciate the feedback.
Um visit winternetweb.com,check out some of the products
(45:16):
that we have, uh, some uniquemerchandise that we have online.
You can continue your Christmasshopping today with an
interesting gift for your TechGeek Fanatic.
And we have a lot of other neatthings there, but unplugging
for now.
Melanie (45:30):
But always stay connected.
Welcome, it is episode eighteen of Wired Together with
uh your host, Melanie Winter.
Jason (00:15):
And Jason Winter.
Melanie (00:17):
And um I will actually say the the title of this one,
it'll be on um on the screen,but also it's just fun.
Control alt deceive.
Jason (00:26):
Yeah, definitely um definitely kind of interesting,
and it will make sense as we goalong.
Melanie (00:32):
But so yeah, we're not necessarily beating a dead
horse, but you know, we we havebeen mentioning um more than
once on um you know the fakenessof AI and um you know how do we
navigate through this, how dowe navigate cons?
That we, you know.
Jason (00:50):
Sure.
Melanie (00:51):
Um so we have mentioned this in in small little
tidbits.
Um this is kind of more of adeep dive.
And it is um, I'm gonna callthis one a fun fact day.
Jason (01:03):
Yeah.
Melanie (01:04):
So we we've done some some digging.
Jason (01:07):
Kind of looking historically, like, you know, if
AI is used this way now, whenit first came out, oh, that's
cool.
And then all of a sudden now,you know, even your grandparents
or your kids will be like, oh,that's AI.
And it's like, wait, you're nowusing that word?
Melanie (01:21):
You know, it it evolved very quickly, but yeah, it's
kind of well in our premises,everything's just kind of a
sandwich on itself.
So, you know, uh pretty muchhow we operate with uh wired
together and Winternet Web is isthat old and new foundation.
So um technology is really justthings that have um changed
(01:43):
either make our life easier orharder throughout throughout
history.
Um, but for the same thing,it's it the human experience,
the the history is still verymuch the same.
Jason (01:55):
We love the history, it really kind of puts things in
perspective.
It does.
And so, you know, as as we'vedone this before or people
raising kids in 2025.
Melanie (02:05):
Um we use a lot of history, uh, our personal
histories, you know, especiallywhen it comes to that kind of
thing.
Where, you know, we want toteach uh certain things that are
just um have always been right,you know, that um that real
true foundation.
(02:25):
So, you know, um that spiritualfoundation, that belief system,
um, you know, who we are aspeople.
And um so our our children areyou know, they they learn a lot
about these things, not just inthe tech technological world,
but you know, it's a deeperdive.
Jason (02:43):
Sure.
Melanie (02:44):
So, you know, the human matters in the whole thing.
And so, you know, one thingthat you know that we kind of
get a lot of that these days,nowadays, yeah, um, you know, is
this you know, so we do live inan area where um we've got more
(03:05):
retirees than we really havethat young family.
Um, and so um a lot of youknow, when technology just kind
of has gone way beyond whereyou're oh sure.
Jason (03:16):
Which your the comfort level.
Melanie (03:18):
Right.
Your comfort level is, youknow, it it all of a sudden
becomes, you know, well, I don'tbelieve anything, you know, I'm
I'm I'm done with all of it.
I'm done with these days, I'mdone with and so we kind of
wanted to go into are we reallybeing duped now more than ever?
Right with cons, withtechnology, with you know,
(03:39):
what's what's happening now?
Um, where things are, you know,it's not hard to con people now
because you can con themonline.
You don't even have to seethem.
Jason (03:48):
With the technology, it makes it that much more, I
guess, ubiquitous.
It's right they can reallyreach you quite.
Melanie (03:54):
And so it does kind of see feel very forefronted, it
does feel very, you know,violating.
Um, and so yes, I totally agreewith that being a you know,
that's terrifying.
Jason (04:05):
Yeah, definitely.
Melanie (04:06):
Um, and so you know, that's kind of Winternet Web is
is here to help.
Yeah, in that when, you know,when things are don't look
right, don't feel right, guesswhat, they're not.
Jason (04:19):
Um call your your we're reached out.
Melanie (04:23):
Call your most trusted, valuable person that knows
technology and and ask if that'snot right, because if it feels
not right, it's not.
Um, but you know, look, are wejust only duped now?
Not necessarily.
Jason (04:36):
I don't think so.
I've I've had plenty ofexamples, and you know, I know
you're talking historically, butI got a comical one if you want
to hear it.
Sure.
Um, I mean this is geez, ouroldest daughter was um maybe
two, three, I guess.
And oh, I know.
Yeah.
So, and you know, lookingonline, finding Christmas gifts
(04:57):
and everything, and I find thesebeanbags, I'm like, she would
love to like lounge in a beanbag in the living room, read a
book, whatever.
So I'm looking at a bunch ofthem, and you know, of course
you look at one, then you'rescrolling and looking through a
bunch.
And then I almost decided onone.
And then in like the otherproducts you may like, I saw an
Elmo one.
So I was like, Alright, let meclick on that one instead.
(05:19):
I'm like, oh, that's perfect.
Add to cart order.
Like, good.
Pretty good price, 25 bucks.
Elmo bean bag and everything.
So it showed up in the mail,and it was about the size of a
small orange.
And I'm looking at that and I'mlike, how how criminal?
(05:42):
Like, and then I'm sittingthere thinking, but I didn't
read the reviews.
And now, see, I read reviewsprobably a lot more now because
of that story.
But I read the reviews- I thinkyou read reviews.
I read the re I read thereviews of the other ones.
I just got trigger happy andwent, no, I don't know about the
unicorn, you know, or whatever.
Elmo, that one, click, youknow, figuring they're all the
(06:03):
same.
But no, I was wrong.
I have no idea, um, you know,whether looking back, whether it
actually gave the dimensions,you know, probably gave it in
millimeters or something.
Oh, that looks big.
And um, but yeah, so I have a$25, you know, I could put it on
a keychain, you know, prettymuch.
Melanie (06:19):
So she doesn't have a beanbag or didn't.
Right.
Really doesn't now, but umpretty much a hacky sack.
Yep.
Jason (06:28):
Yeah, it's about hacky sack, yep.
So, yeah.
Those things happen though.
Melanie (06:33):
So, you know, we we do get duped.
Jason (06:35):
Yeah, we do.
Melanie (06:36):
You know, um this I do remember the idea of being duped
as a small child, not um, youknow, being from here.
I didn't see a whole lot ofpeople I wasn't, you know,
didn't already know or wasn'talready related to, you know.
Jason (06:56):
Sure.
Melanie (06:56):
And and not that we were that closed off, but you
know, you do living in a smallarea, you're you know, you're
familiar with where you're goingand people and stuff like that.
Um and as a young child, wewent to uh New York City.
Jason (07:12):
New York City.
Melanie (07:14):
It was uh Christmas, it was kind of that Christmas time
period when we went to theRockefeller Center and all of
that.
Jason (07:20):
How incredibly terrifying.
No.
Melanie (07:22):
Well, it as a small child from from the six, it was
uh it was terrifying.
Right.
I mean, I mean it's it's likebut you know, I I had my parents
and you know they had been soyou know they traveled and all,
and it's and you know it's whatit is.
Definitely familiar withcities, so I was I I felt like I
was with trusted people, but itwas the first time I actually
learned about like the theduping on the streets, the the
(07:45):
people that would you know standthere with the cases or uh in
their jackets of trench coatsalesmen.
Items of you know, watches andstuff like that, and they're not
real, they're they're fake.
Jason (07:57):
Right, yeah.
Melanie (07:57):
And so, you know, I remember my father explaining
that you know they're they'reselling these things, but
they're not real, you know.
Right.
So they're saying uh I don'tremember the watch, it's big
time watch at the time.
Jason (08:09):
Uh the Psycho um Rolex.
Rolex, yes.
So it's like it's supposed tobe Rolexes, but they're not like
a thousand dollar Rolex.
That kind of thing.
Melanie (08:19):
And and I'd never seen something like that before.
I did not know that kind ofthing existed.
And you know, to me, the ofcourse, as far as shopping and
you know, um brand names wasnothing.
Right.
I didn't even think about it,but you know, it it's it's a
thing, you know, to to like thebrands of stuff, and and so you
know, being explained, well,this is a fake watch.
(08:42):
It's like it looks like a watchto me.
Jason (08:44):
Yeah, it looks like I saw it.
You showed it to me, right?
Melanie (08:49):
So I remember being very confused, but also, you
know, that was that first kindof concept of you know, I guess
that con.
Yeah, when you then you realizeit could happen, you know, wow,
I need on the streets.
Jason (09:03):
Gosh, that's interesting.
Melanie (09:05):
So, you know, we're kind of talking in that
historical nature of beingconned, right, you know, or or
being duped, or you know, thefake news of things.
Jason (09:17):
Sure, sure.
Melanie (09:18):
And you know, um, I mean, we've all been to a
carnival.
Jason (09:22):
Well, yeah, and those games are rigged, as we all
know.
Right.
Um, and it's like, look, see medo it.
Yeah, because you're standingbehind the table and you're at
that angle or whatever, youknow.
Melanie (09:32):
You know, and like magic shows and stuff like that.
It's technically just duping,you know, but it's cut her in
half.
Doing it in such a way that'syou know, at least fantastic,
you know, fantastic andinteresting, and you're
entertained.
Exactly.
And just like the the fellas onthe New York streets, you know,
it's entertaining.
Um, you know, most people wereignoring them, you know.
Jason (09:53):
Because they know, right, yeah, it's kind of it loses
its, yeah.
Melanie (09:58):
You know, it's kind of an old world kind of concept.
And of course, they're nottrying to dupe you online, like
you know, with your story withthe beanbag, you know, it's it
oops, we did purchase somethingthat was not even close to the
you know what we thought.
Jason (10:14):
Right.
Melanie (10:15):
But um, yes, uh so kind of going into like the fun
facts of cons through history.
Jason (10:22):
Yeah.
Melanie (10:23):
Um, so like the earliest kind of notable con.
Um, and and you can pronouncethat.
Jason (10:32):
Oh, it is it's uh Hedistratus, some we were
cousins.
Um Hegestratus.
Hedestratus, I guess.
It's Greek to me.
Melanie (10:38):
Hedgey.
Hedgee sounds like a great, youknow.
Jason (10:41):
Hedgey, yeah.
Melanie (10:41):
That's what I want to call him.
Jason (10:42):
Good old hedgy.
Yeah, it's Greek to me.
I mean, literally.
But about 300 BC, so we're kindof doing some research
historically on, you know, isthis concept more part of the
modern era or how frequent isthe duping, if you will?
So this guy was a sea merchant,and he took out a loan on his
ship and the cargo and all thatkind of stuff, and uh then after
(11:06):
selling the cargo, he pocketedthe loan money.
And because as far as thearrangement, if the ship ever
sunk, he would get, you know,his money back and all that kind
of mess.
So then he uh decided to sinkthe ship.
He was caught in the act, andhis crew, um you know, I well
(11:29):
while he was trying to escape, Idrowned him, so he didn't get
away with it, I guess.
Right.
Melanie (11:36):
Um was not a very good connection.
Jason (11:39):
No, I mean, you know, hopefully someone took notes and
was like, I could have donethat better.
Melanie (11:42):
Right.
But you know, but it's not nota surprising thing for a con to
be about money, of course.
Jason (11:48):
Oh, yeah, usually it is.
It's the currency we all want.
Melanie (11:52):
Not a new concept.
It is this is a very oldconcept.
We were talking, you know, 300BC.
Yeah, so that's you know, um,yeah, some people will do
anything for money.
Jason (12:03):
That's right.
Melanie (12:04):
And you know, so that's the you know, like the lost air
people.
Um yeah, um, yeah, I know allover the place, especially it's
it's more notable in the kingsand queens and that kind of
thing.
You know, there'll be this lostair that comes out.
Jason (12:21):
Um, if you win a lottery ticket now, you'll find family
you didn't know you had.
I mean, exactly.
It's like I don't think I knowyou don't think right.
Melanie (12:30):
Well, it happened in De Carnegie too, you know, and so
sometimes in in American historyfinancial right, and that
financial pain is it's you know,that taste of something like
that, you know.
So people con all the time, onyou know, especially with money.
Jason (12:45):
Right.
Melanie (12:45):
Um, which you know brings us to our next con
artist, which would be like themost notable of you know,
historical con artists.
Yeah.
The snake oil salesman.
Jason (12:58):
Oh, yeah.
The snake oil, yeah, that'sjust snake oil.
Right.
And we say it all the time.
Melanie (13:03):
It's actually as a person who started the original,
yes.
Um, Clark Stanley.
Okay.
Um, he is considered theoriginal snake oil salesman.
He actually was selling a snakeoil that was supposed to just
do anything for you, you know,heal you of all your ills.
Jason (13:22):
He did it for us popular, well.
Melanie (13:23):
And um, so we're talking like eighty late 1800s.
Jason (13:28):
Okay.
Melanie (13:28):
Um, that kind of time period.
Jason (13:31):
In a time period where, like, if we were to talk to,
say, our elders, if you will,that they would they would talk
about things are much morewholesome when I was a child, or
you know, but of course theyweren't a child in 1800.
Everybody was wholesome back inthe day.
You know, and it was kind oflike this thought process, but
we're inundated with it now.
But back then, you knew whoyour snake oil salesman was.
(13:53):
You knew who, you know, oh, hetook a loan on his uh, you know,
ship a kind of person.
Right.
So you kind of know thesepeople almost by name, but I
guess when it all gets together,it well, I believe he was a
traveling salesman, so that'sprobably why he was able to be.
He left town, went somewhereelse, and he wasn't somebody
people were familiar with.
Melanie (14:13):
I got you.
He was traveling, and so thatwas the time period of traveling
salesman, which you know was areally great thing.
Jason (14:19):
I think there's an episode on uh um Wheelhouse in a
prayer we saw.
Remember the guy with the wagonshowed up and they were trying
to sell something and all that,and it was kind of you know the
the hesitancy of all of that.
Melanie (14:30):
Well, yeah, you'd become hesitant when you've got
the small group and you trusteverybody in the group, and then
all of a sudden this new guycomes in.
Jason (14:36):
Yeah, it's like who are you?
Are you really gonna trusteverything that they say?
Melanie (14:40):
So well, Clark Stanley made sure that no.
Okay, you should not trusteverything they say.
Jason (14:46):
Right, what a snake.
Melanie (14:47):
Um and the snake oil ended up being like that they
were able to like break it down,and it was just mineral oil
with some additives like beeffat and turpiton, you know.
It was not anything that was umgoing to actually help you.
Jason (15:02):
Right.
But it feels so nice.
So well.
What else we got?
Who else has really beenpivotal, would you say?
Melanie (15:13):
Oh, and what and you could most of us have or I guess
may have heard, uh, some haveheard the the Brooklyn Bridge
salesman.
Jason (15:23):
Oh, yeah, I remember something about the uh selling
the Brooklyn Bridge and So thisis more of the 1860s, um George
C.
Melanie (15:30):
Parker.
And uh we're getting at thattime period a lot of immigrants,
um not English speakers, youknow, coming to America.
Jason (15:41):
Yeah, hoping hoping to right.
Melanie (15:43):
They're already being told, you know, before they
come, you know, um, you've gotcheap land and you've got you
know lots of opportunities andstuff like that.
So he's actually using a lot ofthat concept and the fact that
they're you know new and tryingto sell things like the Brooklyn
Bridge.
He did more than just theBrooklyn Bridge, but for the
(16:03):
most part, he was considered theBrooklyn Bridge salesman.
Jason (16:06):
Right, he was that guy, yeah.
Melanie (16:07):
He would pretend that he and with paperwork that he
owned the Brooklyn Bridge andtrying to sell it to these
immigrants.
Oh wow, and so they thoughtthey would get something cheap
that was really big and thatwould be, you know, they would
get something from it.
Jason (16:21):
Sure, yeah.
Melanie (16:22):
And so he sold it more times over.
Jason (16:24):
So Right, exactly.
Melanie (16:26):
You know, mean, very, very mean to take money from
these people that are justtrying to start a a new excited
about a concept and uh in a newair land and that kind of thing.
So he he obviously considered avery, very bad fraud.
Jason (16:44):
Man, that's crazy.
Melanie (16:45):
You know, so it's like is this fake news, this lack of
truth?
Right new.
Jason (16:55):
And so it doesn't appear to be.
Melanie (16:57):
I did find a couple of very interesting quotes, and so
it's kind of in that taking theidea of these days.
Is it just these days?
And and um, so one is fromPascal, you know, the 17th
century mathematician.
Um, you know, we named acomputer program like, you know,
(17:18):
very important guy.
Jason (17:20):
Right.
Melanie (17:20):
Um he's got a quote that's truth is so obscure in
these times, and falsehood soestablished that unless we love
the truth, we cannot know it.
And that was like six hundredyears ago or right, and he's
talking again these times.
Jason (17:39):
So Yeah.
Melanie (17:40):
Where is the truth right now?
You know, and so he's but he'sin the 17th century, and he's
still asking, where is thetruth?
Jason (17:47):
I'm sorry, four I ironically, I didn't do math
very well on the mathematician'squote.
That is ironic.
Melanie (17:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Jason (17:53):
I can do math.
Melanie (17:54):
He would be very disappointed.
Jason (17:56):
Well, he's he's rolling over in his group, and of course
we know George Olwell.
Melanie (18:02):
You know, oh yeah um a little bit more a little bit
newer as far as the 1940s.
Um and his his quote that Ifound that um was also very
interesting in a time ofuniversal deceit, telling the
truth is a revolutionary act.
Jason (18:21):
In a time of a universal deceit.
Melanie (18:24):
Again, they're both talking about their time period.
I know, and it's like they feeldeceived, they feel like things
are untrue in their timeperiod, which is not unlike
today.
Jason (18:35):
I mean, just no, and I know we've talked about it, I
don't know if it's come up onthe podcast, but how it's like
every generation, it's like oh,the generation this day is this
generation these days, orwhatever, or you know, we forget
that sometimes things are in aloop, you know.
It passes through, you know,you kind of learn the hard way
or whatever, and then youunderstand, and then you pass
(18:57):
that along with you know, it'sso time hasn't really is time a
string or is time a sandwich?
Melanie (19:04):
So it's kind of you know, we do kind of layer
ourselves on top of it, youknow, itself.
And so it does kind of createmore of a sandwich style.
Is fake news new?
Jason (19:15):
Right.
Melanie (19:16):
And and well, if you research and do your research on
um, you know, we read somearticles and stuff like that.
No, fake news is not new atall.
It's not even a little bit new.
Um you want to take the thefirst one.
Jason (19:31):
Yeah, I so in the fake news category, I guess, looking
back at Egypt in the 13thcentury BC, um uh Ramesses the
Great, they had a battle of theKadesh and it was a crushing
victory, um is what it wasportrayed as.
It was actually a stalemate,but that didn't stop him from
(19:54):
making all the battle scenes andthe way that they're painted on
the temples to kind of bolsterthis image.
So the visual propagandashowing the story, and of
course, so Ramesses is liketelling all his people, we won!
Yeah, we yeah, we and we beatthem, and they you know and um
but it no, it wasn't really so.
Of course, you know, it it itshows glory to, I guess, that
(20:17):
dynasty, if you will, and itkind of makes it um it controls
that narrative of war.
So what else we got?
Melanie (20:26):
And you've got um Mark Antony and Octavian are
campaigning against one another,and so there becomes this
political campaign, and youknow, uh, we're talking 31 BC,
so we're talking, you know, sometime ago, we're talking
politics, we're talking apolitical campaign, you know,
there's this accusation uh thewhat do you call it, the the
(20:48):
negative uh the smear campaignwhere you're you know gonna
smear your opponent.
So um they displayed MarkAnthony as as you know drunken
and weak and um you know uh justa terrible person.
And so the the smear campaignis is not new either.
(21:09):
That is not a new concept of ofhuman history, right?
Especially, you know, we gotour uh democracy, the idea of
voting and and um you know fordifferent candidates from
ancient Greece.
We did, and so and ancient Romepicked that up as well, and so
(21:30):
we've got you know that earlyconcept of sabotage towards
campaigners and stuff like that.
That was there is nothing newunder the sun.
Oh, I know that's what's goingon nowadays.
It seems worse, but onlybecause we're in it.
Yeah, and we're but you know,at the time of you know, yes,
(21:51):
the Shakespearean play with thedeath of Caesar, that's a real
story, dude.
They would kill him.
You know, the the politicalopponent that's you know getting
too big for his breeches, we'regonna get rid of him.
You know, that's not uncommon.
Jason (22:05):
Right.
Sure.
So yeah, so the politicalrealm, of course, had its own
set of, I guess, manipulation oftruths.
Um commercially also.
Um we had the great moon hoaxin 1835.
So the the New York Sunpublished a newspaper with
(22:27):
articles claiming that uhHerschel, the astronomer,
discovered life on the moon.
And it included vegetation,animals, you know, all these
things.
Melanie (22:37):
Well I believe there was pictures.
Yeah, I mean yeah, they maybecome up with pictures later, but
it just looked very of course,you know.
Jason (22:46):
I mean, if if that happened now, we'd be like,
really?
But I'm or we wouldn't, itwould go, no, that's fake.
But it was fictional, and itwas designed to, of course, make
people subscribe to newspaper,or of course to boost sales of
it.
So you have that motive aswell.
Melanie (22:59):
And that was, you know, but you know it became
especially at that time period,and we've fast forward quite a
bit to the 1900s, but you know,newspaper sales became you know
something that everybody wasstriving for.
Oh, sure.
Um anything you could do tosell a newspaper, anything you
could do to, you know, kind ofget your your voice out there
(23:23):
and become influential andprominent, you know.
Jason (23:27):
I said it tabloids later.
Melanie (23:29):
Right.
Well, yeah, that became reallybig deal.
And um, you know, it of coursewe all learn this in school, the
the idea of yellow journalismthat comes up.
Um we learn it in and you know,we kind of do scrape over it a
little bit.
Um you know, I think ineducation there are certain
(23:54):
things where, yeah, we're gonnarepeat, we're gonna scrape over,
you know, um certain parts ofAmerican history.
Jason (24:01):
Yeah.
Melanie (24:02):
Uh, I feel like this one would probably be a worth a
real good classroom.
This would be a good unit to agood unit, or at least, you
know, real one good day of youknow, really discussing why is
yellow journalism terrifying.
Jason (24:18):
Yeah.
Melanie (24:18):
You know, um, which it came about, you know, starting
pretty much the the propagandathat started the
Spanish-American War.
So, you know, a war pretty muchbroke out in the advent of um
or everything that's puttogether, yeah.
We created the name later, Ithink, but you know, in in that
whole concept of you know, weneed to use this platform that
(24:43):
we have to support somethingthat we're gonna create, right,
such as the Spanish-AmericanWar.
So it got the newspaper umdefinitely out there, but what
it also did was kind of givethat idea for a lot of readers
this isn't something I trustanymore.
Jason (25:04):
Right.
They they use their power.
Melanie (25:07):
There ended up being kind of the backlash of the
yellow journalism that all of asudden the those big newspapers
that were really beinginfluential became less and less
um used for you know by thecommon third.
Jason (25:22):
Yeah, people just didn't trust it, so you know.
Melanie (25:24):
So little newspapers kind of shot up all over the
place.
Um I see localizing everythinggave those um readers something
to to trust.
Jason (25:37):
Okay.
Melanie (25:38):
Because if you've got you know a newspaper that, you
know, has you know our area'sweather and you know our local
uh high school sports and youknow that kind of thing, you
know, it that's moretrustworthy.
You know, I actually do knowthat that was true.
Jason (25:55):
Right.
Melanie (25:56):
You know, I I know that kid that ran that you know 40
yards.
Jason (26:00):
And you probably know the staff, you know, you know the
families and everyone that'smentioned in it.
Melanie (26:05):
So yes, and so there becomes this kind of more
localized um understanding ofokay, well, if we've got the
local newspapers and we've gotthe local uh relationship, now
anything that they say that isstate or national, right?
They're trusted because theyare trusted as um people already
(26:27):
because they're you knowputting the things that are
localized.
Jason (26:30):
True.
Melanie (26:30):
I I trust a local newspaper, therefore if they're
publishing national stuff, thenthat's which of course after
that time period pops up intoWorld War II, World War I into,
but World War II, you know,where your local newspapers are
putting a lot more nationalsituations going on.
(26:51):
Everybody needs to know what'sgoing on with the war.
Jason (26:53):
Yeah, I mean, becoming a lot more globalized, and you
kind of need to know what's soyeah, yeah.
Melanie (26:59):
That's great that you know the the local sports team
did all right, but you know,what happened?
Jason (27:03):
Right.
Melanie (27:04):
What happened to Germany?
What's going on?
Jason (27:06):
You know, I need to know.
Melanie (27:07):
And so from there it kind of got bigger and bigger
again, where we go from newsgetting very localized so that
it doesn't get you know, wedon't get too much propaganda.
Jason (27:17):
Sure.
Melanie (27:18):
Then after World War II, it was kind of like the
propaganda machine built itselfback up, right?
And then of course we fastforward to you know the the
2000s and and to now wherepropaganda machine got you know
just massive.
But we know this.
We are aware of the fact that alot of um trusted news sources,
(27:44):
you know, are um kind ofgetting a lot of the same news,
maybe not all of that's right.
Um I'm sitting there going,everything's faked.
But you know, we did we didalso, we're in 2025 now.
We live through five years ofCOVID.
Jason (28:01):
We do.
Melanie (28:02):
You get to that point where what do you believe?
Jason (28:05):
You start wondering, okay, what's actually going on?
You know, how do I determinewhether this is true or
something?
Melanie (28:09):
You get new sources from here, you get new sources
from here.
Jason (28:12):
And it always conflicts, and it's like very conflicting.
Who is correct?
Melanie (28:16):
Is it local?
Is it national?
Jason (28:17):
Is it worldly where is this coming from?
Melanie (28:20):
And and then it got really twisted from there.
And so um the the article thatwe got, some of this um more
fake news stuff uh fromPolitico, it kind of it was
written in 2016, so it's nottoday's time, right?
So it's it's before all of theum uh maybe slightly crazier
(28:44):
news setting that started in2020.
Polarization of everythingbeing so um, but it's it's
pretty much like throwing in thetowel at the the end of the
article is saying, you know, umeverybody's getting more and
more news sources from socialmedia and and fake news is is
(29:05):
gonna be just an accepted idea.
Jason (29:07):
Right.
Well and so that's kind of it'shard not to encounter it every
day now.
Right.
Right.
And that was almost 10 yearsago, too.
Right.
Melanie (29:22):
So in 2016, that's almost ten years ago.
So today's time of of 2025going into 2026, not too long
from now, you know, we'reactually starting to see a
difference now in what fake newsis creating.
And what it's creating is is somany non believers that now
(29:47):
truth is just kind of shot.
So, which may be a good thing.
Jason (29:53):
What do you mean by that?
Melanie (29:54):
Well, it kind of in the that whole idea of yellow
journalism where you know whereyou are Um you know, talking
about the they are able tocreate a war off of propaganda,
let's pull back.
Jason (30:09):
Yeah, I see.
Melanie (30:11):
So let's let's not trust these few very large
newspapers and and pull backinto a local concept.
Maybe that's where we kind ofneed to be.
We need to understand truth ona a different scale than what we
started with.
Jason (30:31):
Yeah, I mean, certainly being being in groups and you
know, kind of embracing yourlocal area and being able to get
information out is important,but I think part of the
challenge with that, the methodsin which we do that is still in
mainstream far-reaching method.
I mean, you know, say socialmedia.
Melanie (30:53):
But it's gotten so fake you believe nothing.
Jason (30:55):
Right.
I know.
Melanie (30:56):
Which again, maybe it's a a great answer.
Jason (31:01):
And it it's the problem too, you're hiding behind a
profile.
Would we act differentlyspeaking face to face?
Melanie (31:08):
Well yeah.
Jason (31:08):
Would we act differently actually writing out something?
You know that extra hint ofhumanity with that you know, are
we lying to ourselves just asmuch as lying to someone else
when we feel like what we'resaying isn't even I mean, we
know it's not real.
But does it really feel realwhen you're using it through a
(31:31):
platform that you you're kind ofhiding behind?
It it it in itself isn'ttangible.
So what does that meanpsychologically?
Are we I don't know.
Because I mean you see a lot ofpeople posting stuff online and
making comments about that, andyou kind of go, I wouldn't say
that, but what do they gottalose?
(31:53):
You know?
Melanie (31:54):
Right.
Jason (31:55):
Well, they don't know these people exactly, so there's
specifically there's no tie.
Melanie (32:00):
Which is kind of maybe what might bring us back into
truth is a little more in frontof you.
Truth is um or or you know, wecan go with Plato.
Okay, what about um Plato'sidea of truth.
Um again, you know, ancienthistory is fascinating because
(32:25):
they're really still dealingwith the same thing.
Sure.
The human understanding.
Jason (32:30):
Right.
Melanie (32:30):
Um, so obviously Plato is a Greek philosopher.
And the truth for Plato is theunchanging of reality.
So um I'll go ahead anddirectly quote the philosopher
is in love with the philosopheris in love with truth.
That is not with the changingworld of sensation, which is an
(32:56):
object of opinion, but with anunchanging reality, which is the
object of knowledge.
So that unchanging reality,that human spirit, that um what
makes us truth, you know, whatmakes us real, that is the
(33:16):
thing, and and I don't thinkPlato's wrong at all in this,
that that is that's the truth.
Jason (33:21):
Yeah.
Melanie (33:22):
Those those sensationalized bits.
I think that's when we need totake pause when something's, you
know, when it's too good to betrue.
Right.
Oh, I mean, exactly.
Yeah, you know, and and thoselittle, especially in the pol
politics and stuff like that, ifit looks like, oh, that really
fits what I think, you probablyfake.
(33:43):
You know what that neither oneare gonna fit what you think.
The truth is somewhere in thething that maybe makes you
slightly uncomfortable becausethat is politics.
Yeah, exactly.
If you're not slightlyuncomfortable on one side or the
other, then you're believingSnakeal.
You know, it should be, youknow, truth is not always
(34:03):
delicious.
It's it's gonna be, you know,it's gonna have some some sour
in there somewhere.
Jason (34:10):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Melanie (34:11):
And it's gonna be something that's you know, more
trusted in that, you know,unchanging idea.
Jason (34:21):
Yeah.
So what do you think the fixwith with all this is like how
how do you see the future sincethis is what we're dealing with?
And of course, um, you know, wewere talking a little bit about
initially with AI and how thereare videos that aren't real.
(34:44):
Um we've talked about storiesthat aren't real, there are
products going to New York orwherever, things that aren't
real.
Where do we go if we can'ttrust anything?
Like what what how do we how dowe combat this?
Melanie (34:59):
Well, just like when you um are are taking in Bible
study.
When you read the Bible, youcan't just um read it in tiny
little pieces.
Jason (35:10):
Right.
Melanie (35:10):
Um, so you of course we do, and we put you know, verses
out there um that meansomething to us.
And you know, you're taking andyou're extracting from the sure
the story itself, but at somepoint that's the the truth is in
the story, the whole thing.
And if it doesn't kind of havea um if it's not repeated, like
(35:34):
like a backing to something.
Yeah, if it doesn't havebacking, if it's not constant,
then um, then it's just a piece.
Jason (35:42):
Okay.
Melanie (35:42):
Then it's just a uh one idea, it's not the whole thing.
Jason (35:46):
Right.
Melanie (35:46):
The whole thing needs backing, it needs all of it.
Um it's so it needs to kind ofkeep showing up.
Jason (35:51):
Sure.
Melanie (35:51):
Kind of the same thing with reality versus we'll go
with AI reality, where it's youknow, if it has no real backing,
yeah, you you pretty much, youknow, know that that's there's
nothing true about it.
Jason (36:07):
Right.
Melanie (36:08):
And you know, we do need to to teach.
Um, we do as much as we can andrepeat ourselves um way too
often.
Jason (36:18):
Right.
Melanie (36:19):
But you know, we do need to teach that discernment,
um, especially when they'reyoung.
Jason (36:23):
Yeah.
Melanie (36:24):
Um, we do that too, our kids so they roll their eyes,
but you know, I I want to makesure that they know that not
everything you see is true.
Jason (36:30):
Yeah, exactly.
Melanie (36:31):
And and so we we need to teach discernment, we need to
teach um critical thinkingskills.
And and we do need to make surethat we are putting a lot of
effort into teaching thosecritical thinking skills, not
just, you know, um you can'talways believe what you hear,
but you know, really dig deep inwhy is this wrong?
Jason (36:54):
Sure.
Melanie (36:55):
You know, why would you believe something like this?
You know, that kind of thing.
Really dig deep in everythingthat you hear because you know,
a lot of it's gonna bepropaganda.
Jason (37:04):
Yeah, and and like you talked about having a backing,
everything you do here, you kindof try to attach it to
something you're comfortablewith or familiar with, or you
know, where do I put this?
And if it's just out of leftfield doesn't make sense, and
that's something to wonderabout, and you got to ask the
questions what's the motivation?
Why would someone say this?
You know, you know, where's thecredibility?
(37:24):
And you just need to learnthose skills.
Melanie (37:27):
Right.
So and and the most tangibleanswer is, you know, I'm almost
positive that for a new job insociety is gonna be
authenticators.
And authenticators, so someonethat evaluates and I used to
(37:48):
sell um, you know, vintagefurniture, uh antiques, things
like that.
In the antique world, um,people can authenticate your
antique.
Sure.
Um, they can authenticate youryour papers, uh, things like
that.
There's very, very small groupof people that have that
capability of um digging intoand and knowing this kind of
(38:14):
stuff.
You know, we've got wonderfulshows on, you know, the TV with
you know authenticators thatsure like like like anti-gro
show.
Anti-grocho.
Um and what's the newer one?
Jason (38:25):
It's uh pawn stars.
Melanie (38:30):
Pawn stars, that's it.
Exactly.
And and so they'll authenticatethe things that you know people
have brought in.
Jason (38:36):
Sure.
Melanie (38:37):
I think that we will um you know find more and more um
job opportunities for peoplethat really have a niche, they
know something just really,really well, right.
They become authenticators.
Jason (38:55):
And it makes sense.
I mean, kind of having a a bigbroad knowledge about something
specific.
I know that sounds almost likea a paradox, but um being able
to discern, being able to be theuh the referee or whatever,
saying, Okay, yes, this is real,this is not.
Um maybe I guess legalinstances or right.
Melanie (39:18):
I mean, you have fake videos, the fake pictures, the
the paperwork, um, you can fakehistory.
Jason (39:24):
Yeah, fake paperwork, exactly.
And it's like, hey, I mean,because we can make anything
look real, especially in thedigital world.
Here's a document.
I mean, how many times do wehave documents that we need to
send out and whatever?
You would have to analyze itand make sure that this is
actually to the code of thefile.
Yes, this was not fabricatedusing any means, you know.
Uh, but yeah, yeah, I cancertainly see that.
Melanie (39:48):
You've got lawyers, you've got, you know, um the
other people that are arefighting for constitution and
truth and things like that.
I think you're gonna haveauthenticators as an actual job
that you go around and make surethat things are actually true.
Jason (40:06):
Isn't it funny?
Because I mean, I just thinkback to say 15 years ago, we'd
look at the web to look upsomething to see if it was true.
Melanie (40:12):
Right.
Jason (40:13):
And now we're thinking about a new career to discern
whether what we find or interactwith is actually true.
Melanie (40:20):
Right.
Jason (40:21):
So again, full circle, times haven't changed.
Melanie (40:24):
Not really.
Jason (40:25):
I think I need to get a loan on a ship.
Melanie (40:27):
Uh no, no, no.
Jason (40:29):
I can get a loan on a ship I don't own, and it's easy.
You still have a soul and youneed to make sure that's
maintained.
Definitely, definitely.
Melanie (40:36):
So And so what I guess also what does it mean for AI?
Jason (40:40):
Right.
Melanie (40:41):
I mean you know, or we we use AI, AI is our fun
co-host.
It is, you know, or it's not toshove this whole concept aside.
Jason (40:53):
Not at all.
Melanie (40:54):
And I think at some point we just have to see it as
art.
Jason (40:59):
Yeah.
I mean, it is based on, I mean,you kind of need to interpret
it in some way too.
I guess kind of like art.
Melanie (41:08):
Mm-hmm.
And um art is is acommunication, it's an
interpretated, you know,interpretation of you know,
something that you're trying torelay to someone else.
Jason (41:19):
Right.
Melanie (41:19):
And so when we have fake out there on social media
or out there on the internet andstuff like that, right, you
know, it is art.
Jason (41:29):
And I think a big part of why um it's being used is
because I can create a video ormodify a video or audio or
whatever and make it seem sorealistic.
And and that that's themanipulative angle.
It's like this is believablebecause your eyes and your ears
say, wow, uh that's gotta betrue.
(41:51):
But there's art in the creationof that.
Melanie (41:55):
And so, you know, we can't, you know, just always be
afraid of it.
We can see it as art.
Yeah, definitely and see it asa communication in a way, you
know.
If you go into any um museumwith like really older or you
know, classic stuff, classicpaintings, that kind of thing,
you know, you look at theMadonna.
(42:17):
You know, half of them she'sblonde.
You know, which we know that'snot you know good old
Renaissance, right?
It's not even possible, it'snot true, but it's it's the eye
of the beholder, it's theinterpretation.
It's the relatable perspective,right?
So who who decided to paint it?
Yeah, it's not meant to showyou, you know, truth.
Jason (42:40):
Right.
Melanie (42:40):
It's meant to show you an interpretation, yeah.
Jason (42:43):
Exactly.
Melanie (42:43):
And in that interpretation, maybe a feeling.
Jason (42:46):
Sure.
Melanie (42:46):
And so I think we need to kind of go into this whole
new AI setting as it's not meantto be truth.
Jason (42:54):
Yeah.
Melanie (42:54):
It was never meant to be truth.
Jason (42:56):
Well, well, even in using it as a tool, they say, you
know, in other words, checkanything that's important, you
know, don't always check back.
You know, which again, thewhole purpose of using it as a
tool, just like on good we usedto say, oh, it's on the
internet, it must have beentrue.
Well, what do you think AI is?
It's scrubbing the internet andall the sources.
So if you don't true on theinternet, you won't know it's
(43:17):
not true on the answer.
Right.
If you don't know your answerwell enough to be able to tell
whether that's fact or fictionor, you know, inaccurate, then
maybe you should reconsider howyou're using it and to and to
check things.
But you know, it's just just toblame the technology, you know,
uh mindlessly, I don't think isa good approach.
Melanie (43:39):
Right.
I mean, keep going with the theauthenticity.
Yeah.
Um, those who are writingarticles, those who are sure,
you know, putting things outthere to really still dig into
historical fact and things likethat.
Keep putting that kind of stuffout there and and become an
authenticator and some reallydig deep into something that
(44:01):
you're very passionate about.
Jason (44:03):
Know your craft.
Melanie (44:04):
Be the authenticator for the the next shift.
Jason (44:07):
Be your library of Alexandria for what you're
passionate about, and then helpothers figure out what is what.
Melanie (44:14):
Yes, we need to always have those people that really
had that niche.
Jason (44:19):
Definitely.
Sounds good.
Well, that was that was prettyinteresting.
I learned a lot historically,and as far as um how a lot of
these things really have justplayed themselves century after
century, and you know, justdifferent scenarios.
Melanie (44:34):
Right.
And that's the whole thing isthere is no fake news under the
that's new under the sun.
Jason (44:41):
Right.
Melanie (44:41):
There is no con that's new under the sun.
Jason (44:43):
Yep, tail as old as time.
Melanie (44:45):
We do it differently now, but it's not new by any
means.
Jason (44:49):
Yep, different tool, but same thing.
Yep.
Melanie (44:52):
Same human.
Jason (44:53):
Same human, well, yeah.
Melanie (44:54):
Yeah.
Jason (44:55):
Exactly.
So all right.
Well, I think we're gonna wrapthings up and uh please review
or follow us on your favoriteplatform while you're there.
Just go ahead and take care ofit.
It really helps us get us outthere more, and uh always
appreciate the feedback.
Um visit winternetweb.com,check out some of the products
(45:16):
that we have, uh, some uniquemerchandise that we have online.
You can continue your Christmasshopping today with an
interesting gift for your TechGeek Fanatic.
And we have a lot of other neatthings there, but unplugging
for now.
Melanie (45:30):
But always stay connected.
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