September 18, 2025 • 28 mins
This week on Wrong Way Forward, Katy and Justin tackle one of the most famous advice-givers of all time: Oprah Winfrey. In her 2008 Stanford commencement address, she told graduates that “feelings are your GPS for life.” Sounds good, right? Or is that advice actually the wrong way forward?
Along the way, the duo roast Oprah’s guidance, swap personal stories (including Justin’s framed Oprah autograph moment), and debate whether trusting your gut is really enough when logic and data are ignored.
Plus: listener emails pour in on last week’s foul-ball parenting debate—was it courage or crowd-pleasing?—and the hosts finish with a surprisingly heated back-and-forth on whether tracking friends on Find My Friends/Life360 is harmless fun or a total boundary fail.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:01):
She's Katy Montgomery , he's Justin Joseph.
These best friends are servingsubpoenas to bad advice weekly
with Wrong Way Forward.
The advice column reboot.
You never knew you neededSparks fly, and so does the
hilarity.
Now here's Katy and Justin.
Katy Montgomery (00:17):
Hi, my name is Katy Montgomery and I'm here
with my best friend, justinJoseph.
And welcome to episode three ofWrong Way Forward.
Justin Joseph (00:24):
Hi everybody.
So good to see everybody outthere.
We're so excited to be on ourthird episode, where we really
cover some interesting topics sofar, don't you think?
Katy Montgomery (00:31):
I mean definitely.
I think we've covered um flyballs, bad restaurant behavior
raw dogging which you had noidea about.
Um, I do what raw dogging on along flight.
Justin Joseph (00:42):
Well, I feel like we need to address this first,
because after the last episode,you literally pulled me inside
and were mortified that yourmom's best friends are going to
see this, and I think that wouldbe more embarrassing.
You didn't know what rawdogging is.
You're more freaked out that Iexplained what raw dogging was.
Katy Montgomery (00:58):
Well, that still holds, and that's the case
, and you can't change anythingno-transcript.
Justin Joseph (01:35):
Is that runway is a beacon of light for gay
little kids who are hiding theirbedspreads reading a magazine.
For me, that was over.
Every day.
I would come home to watchOprah, and not just because I
thought she was I mean, Ithought she was a beacon of
light but because she was abroadcaster and I thought that's
, that's what I want to do soyou, you let the cat out of the
bag.
Katy Montgomery (01:55):
It is Oprah.
And just to let all of ourlisteners know, when I knew
Justin, shortly after college,he did have a framed autographed
photo of Oprah on full display.
So she has really been, as yousaid, a beacon of light for you.
Yeah, she's someone whoprobably doesn't curry as much
favor as she did, you know.
Justin Joseph (02:17):
Well, you've never been a huge Oprah fan.
Why is that?
I think?
Katy Montgomery (02:20):
you thought.
Justin Joseph (02:20):
I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but I remember from when I usedto talk about it you were like
not impressed.
Katy Montgomery (02:26):
No, that's actually not correct.
That's factually incorrect.
I've always been impressed byOprah.
How can you not be impressed?
Justin Joseph (02:32):
by Oprah.
I feel like we need a buttwhere we can just sit and you
can be like that's factuallyincorrect with me, Because I
feel like that's a theme.
Katy Montgomery (02:47):
Well, it is because we know that you
exaggerate the truth quite a bit.
But you know, and I actually dohave a crazy kind of story
connection to Oprah.
Oprah is from my home state ofMississippi and I attended kind
of what we lovingly call theNerd School, mississippi School
for Math and Science, andactually I was in the third
graduating class and we didwrite Oprah a letter asking if
she would return to her homestate and be our featured
speaker.
She passed on that and in factI don't asking if she would
return to her home state and beour featured speaker.
She passed on that and in factI don't know if she ever
(03:09):
formally did, but she is someonewho is very well regarded and I
think today we're going to kindof step out on a limb and do
something that some people mightsay is sacrilegious and say the
advice that we're going tocover that she gave was the
wrong way forward okay and Iagree we'll get there.
Justin Joseph (03:28):
Um, I would only say, like you and I were lucky
enough to have a, and we'll getbeyond by obvious fascination
with her.
Yes, we were lucky enough tohave a friend who was one of the
producers and so, after wegraduated and I still adored her
and I got into broadcasting andadored her more um, we were
able to contact our friend and Iwas like, can you get me to the
show?
Those tickets were impossible,yes, to have, and so she really
(03:51):
greenlighted me to the showseveral times and, um, I'll
remember the two episodes.
I remember specifically onewhere I sat because I knew where
she came out and she turned,she walked right out and walked
right past me.
I was on the aisle and Iremember being devastated my
heart, like that's it and thenshe literally turned around,
looked at me from, I meanliterally turned around and said
(04:11):
you have a really cute shirt onand kept going.
So that I'll never forget thatmoment, of course.
And the second episode I hadlied at work because I was at
the prosecutor's office andthey're like you know, I did.
I don't know if I have anyvacation time, but I think Molly
, our producer friend, gave usone day, you can come on this
date, and I was like, oh, I willbe there.
(04:31):
Yes, and so I was there and I,literally, I remember at the
beginning they said the only waynot to get on camera is if you
chew gum or read herteleprompter.
Yes, so I read the entireteleprompter.
I chewed gum because I did notwant anyone back in debt or be
like why is justin there when hecalled and said to her there
(04:52):
you go so so, and it's going tobe interesting to see what
happens when we process whetheror not her advice was the wrong
way forward.
Katy Montgomery (04:59):
Where you're going to land yeah, 100.
Justin Joseph (05:02):
so we're going to listen to advice.
This is from 2008.
It was for Stanfordcommencement address, again, not
surprising.
I think we feel a little bitdifferently about the advice,
but let's listen to her adviceand we'll take it up on the
other side.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
What I know now is that feelings are really your
GPS system for life.
When you're supposed to dosomething or not supposed to do
something, your emotionalguidance system lets you know.
The trick is to learn to checkyour ego at the door and start
checking your gut instead.
Every right decision I've made,every right decision I've ever
(05:39):
made, has come from my gut, andevery wrong decision I've ever
made was a result of me notlistening to the greater voice
of myself.
If it doesn't feel right, don'tdo it.
That's the lesson, and thatlesson alone will save you, my
(06:00):
friends, a lot of grief.
Justin Joseph (06:02):
So we'll stop there.
I mean, I think on its face itsounds like good advice, but you
think it's the wrong wayforward.
Katy Montgomery (06:08):
Well, I, you know, I coach a lot of
executives and there is thisconcept kind of called the rider
and the elephant.
The idea is imagine you knowthe average person, let's say
that they're.
You know approximately 150pounds.
You know approximately 150pounds.
(06:30):
Imagine an elephant.
That's six tons.
So the rider is your logicalbrain.
That is the one that isprocessing the evidence, the
data.
It's doing something that'slogical.
Your emotional brain is thatelephant.
It's six tons, it takes overand 150 person cannot steer a
six-ton elephant.
And what I find is that when wehave our emotional brain take
over, our emotional brain isbrilliant.
(06:52):
It can tell us crazy stories,it can argue us out of something
, it can give us all of thesemotivations that everyone around
us, that we think they have,when actually we don't know that
as a fact.
Justin Joseph (07:05):
So let me dumb that down.
So you're saying your emotionalbrain can tell you you look
good in that outfit, which youdon't, because you're like
excited that you just bought it.
Katy Montgomery (07:12):
Or I think the better example is.
I think the better examplewould be is that you say I can't
speak up in this meetingbecause your emotional brain is
saying I'm going to saysomething stupid.
I'm not as educated as everyonein the room.
I don't have a senior position,you know.
(07:34):
I'm not, you know I'm notsomeone who normally, you know,
speaks as an expert in thisspace.
So therefore I'm not going tospeak.
Justin Joseph (07:41):
Yes, Go ahead Sorry.
Katy Montgomery (07:42):
Just telling yourself stories and the
emotional brain does that.
It's not logical.
Justin Joseph (07:47):
For me that shows up in my age.
I walk into a place and I thinkI'm too old, Like I had a job
last year where I had to wear asuit and I just don't think I've
ever felt older than when I puta suit on.
I just do not think it'sattractive.
But you're saying that's allemotional brain.
Katy Montgomery (08:01):
That's emotional brain, and I think
what Oprah is saying is like.
And if we listen to a furtherclip which I think is really
important is she said youremotion should be your GPS
system.
It should be what guides you.
And I'm not saying takeemotions or gut out of the
system, but you have to notforget about logic.
You can't forget about the dataand the pieces that you're
(08:24):
taking in.
Forget about logic.
You can't forget about the dataand the pieces that you're
taking in.
And if we allow ourselves toonly move on emotion, we might
be steering down the wrong path.
And I think it's very easy forOprah to say that when she's at
Stanford, a very, you knowprestigious university, giving a
graduation speech, when she'sbeen on the Forbes you know 50,
when she's considered the numberone queen of all talk media,
(08:48):
it's very easy, 2020 vision, tosay follow your gut.
Justin Joseph (08:52):
And she's Oprah also, right to your point.
Katy Montgomery (08:53):
Yes, she's.
Justin Joseph (08:54):
Oprah.
When you're Oprah, you can sayanything Correct.
Okay, so let's listen.
You said there's a couple ofthings we wanted to highlight.
Let's listen to Oprah'scontinued speech and we'll catch
up on the other end and startchecking your gut instead.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Everyone knows so what I know now is that feelings
are really your GPS system forlife.
When you're supposed to dosomething or not supposed to do
something, your emotionalguidance system lets you know.
The trick is to learn to checkyour ego at the door and start
(09:28):
checking your gut.
Justin Joseph (09:29):
instead, you say what to that?
Katy Montgomery (09:30):
I say that your emotional GPS is really, you
know, could take you down thewrong path.
Emotions can take us into apath of you know.
We can go back and visitperiods of trauma.
We can be nervous, we can beanxious, and that can take over
that logical brain that is ableto take in the real data, the
(09:52):
real story as it's evolving,rather than the story we tell
ourselves.
Justin Joseph (09:56):
Love that, and so I think there's some real
takeaways.
Whether you're a student,whether you're a high-level or
C-level manager, a high-levelexecutive, a high level
executive, I think there's somereal takeaways.
We're going to talk about those.
On the other side of the breakPlus, we're going to talk about
some viewer emails from ourepisode last week, and we'll
evaluate all that and takeanother look when we get back
right up to this.
Katy Montgomery (10:17):
You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward,
where bad advice goes to die andthen gets resurrected, just so
we can roast it again.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
That's right, Katy.
Nobody's off limits not thegurus, not the influencers, and
definitely not Oprah.
Katy Montgomery (10:30):
Sorry, Oprah.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and
subscribe and come back everyThursday for new episodes.
Katy Montgomery (10:36):
Have a new topic or some disastrously bad
advice you want to dissect?
Email wrongwayforwardpodcast atgmailcom.
Include your contact info.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Now back to Wrong Way Forward.
Announcer (10:48):
Roasting the worst advice ever.
Welcome back to the Katy andJustin podcast.
Justin Joseph (10:52):
So welcome back to Wrong Way Forward.
This week we're talking aboutone of America's most beloved
advice givers, oprah Winfrey,and we took on her 2008
commencement speech, where shetalks about following your gut
and how that could be yourgreatest guide moving forward.
You say that's not the rightadvice.
It's the wrong advice.
You say that because why?
Katy Montgomery (11:11):
Well, it's the wrong way forward and I think,
if you think about what sheactually said, is that your
emotion should be your GPS.
So imagine that you were adriver in a car using a GPS
system and you're blindlyfollowing what the GPS is saying
.
You've also got to take in thedata.
Has there been a car accident?
You know.
Is there a, you know, crazydriver?
(11:31):
you know, and you need to kindof focus defensive driving, you
know so we just kind of are youknow, or is there you know a
horrible driver and you need tokind of respond to that, you
know?
Is there construction in theroad that maybe that gps hasn't
taken care of?
Emotions are important, gut isimportant, but people need to be
(11:53):
very aware when makingdecisions is to not let that
cloud and totally be blind towhat are the facts and the data
that they're taking in and Ilove this because you know kat
facts and the data that they'retaking in.
Justin Joseph (12:05):
And I love this because you know Katy and I were
talking while we were offduring the break and she said
you know, is this excitingenough of an episode?
But the truth is not all.
Life is fun and, you know,laugh out loud.
Sometimes there are realtakeaways and that's one of the
things we want to pass across inour broadcasts is sometimes
there's some real takeaways fromour advice.
Katy Montgomery (12:21):
And we are.
So I don't think we evenrealize on a day-to-day basis
how much we are alreadyinfluenced by our emotions, the
way you see something, the wayyou interpret something, your
gut reaction to something that'sbeen influenced by a former
negative reaction that might notbe fair in the current you know
kind of climate, and so that'swhy you can't be, as Oprah said,
(12:45):
totally focused on the emotion.
There has to be the logicalpiece.
Justin Joseph (12:50):
And you see the showing up again and again in
coaching sessions.
Katy Montgomery (12:52):
Yes, I mean millions of times, and you know
the examples are plentiful wherepeople tell themselves stories
and it's based on the emotionthey might be feeling, the
emotion of anxiety orinferiority, or nervousness.
And that translates to I'm notsmart enough to speak up, I'm
not senior enough to speak up,I'm too old.
(13:12):
In my case, I'm too old, yes,where again the logical piece
should be I've done the homework, or I've been assigned this
project, or I have somethingvalid to say, and so we need to
be careful to not 100% sit inthat emotional space.
Justin Joseph (13:30):
I love that.
I think that's great advice.
I think it's you know, and it'shard to take on a thought
leader like Oprah, but sometimesnot everybody's right.
Katy Montgomery (13:38):
Well, and sometimes even the most famous
of advice givers can go thewrong way forward.
Justin Joseph (13:44):
Exactly All right .
So now it's time to revisit ourlast week's episode and talk
about some of our viewer emailson why either you were right or
maybe they thought I was right,right.
Let's start with.
Our most popular topic lastweek, from looking at our data,
was the discussion over thewoman who came in to take the
child's.
So there was a home run ball, afather caught up for her son
(14:06):
and you see this woman run inwith bad genes and she couldn't
see what she was saying to thatbecause her back backwards to
the camera but he ends up givingher the ball.
I thought that was the wrongway.
He thought it was the right way.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Correct, correct.
Justin Joseph (14:18):
And I think some of our viewers agreed with me
more than they agreed with you.
And so let's talk about some ofour viewer emails that came
through Hi.
Let's talk about some of ourviewer emails that came through
Hi team.
I just listened to Katy.
I love you.
Your logic this week had moreholes than my kid's soccer net.
Justin, keep a smug tone.
You earned it.
I'm not sure I love that, butit's an email that thought I was
on the right side.
You.
Katy Montgomery (14:37):
Well, I mean, I think what's really interesting
, as I heard it said, isJustin's commitment to standing
on his principles unwavering, ordoes it only apply to fights he
knows he could win, likeagainst a restaurant's wine list
or a woman with bad genes?
Justin Joseph (14:52):
Oh, someone actually wrote about bad genes.
I mean, I know that was alittle bit out of common sense,
but she really didn't have badgenes.
On what else do we have?
Katy?
Denial isn't a valid debatestrategy.
Justin was right.
The people have spoken.
Take the L with grace and abottle of cheap wine.
Ouch, that's like cutting home.
Katy Montgomery (15:15):
Well, I mean, I'm really hesitant to read the
next one because I think it'sjust pure nasty, but because
you're throwing, you know, somecurve balls, Justin, since you
think that the dad should havestood his ground against the
Philly's Karen and punched herin the face, would you have done
the same If the woman whocalled you oh sorry, I can't, I
(15:39):
can't read it anymore.
Oh sorry, I can't, I can't readit anymore.
Oh, excuse me, I don't reallywant to say this one, but since
you are throwing a lot of curveballs and hitting a little bit
below the bell, Justin, sinceyou think the dad should have
stood his ground against thePhilly's care and punched her in
the face, would you have donethe same with the woman who
called you right and demandedyour framed quote back?
(16:00):
Do you remember when you saidthat you would have a framed
quote up in your next?
Justin Joseph (16:06):
So now we're going to turn to the segment
where we take on last week'sspirit emails from our
discussion last weekend One ofthe hottest topics and looking
at our data from last week,where people have really strong
positions on the woman who ranover.
When the father caught the foulball at the baseball game and
gave it to his child, the womanran over and let him have it and
he gave her the ball, and Ithought that was totally
(16:27):
unacceptable.
You had a different take.
Katy Montgomery (16:28):
I did.
I mean, I thought that you know, for the sake of you know,
keeping the peace and you know,and giving a teaching moment to
the son, and you know, and it'sreally interesting because you
know I've also worked for peopleand you know, and it's really
interesting because you knowI've also worked for people and
you know, and it's it's reallyinteresting.
And it said, given Justin'sprincipal stance on cheap wine
(16:49):
and fighting for a baseball, whyisn't he taking on big beer or
big soda for the sake of hisrelationship?
Justin Joseph (16:54):
That doesn't make any sense.
I have a few that support myposition, Katy, you seriously
let someone snatch on adultsnatch an adult t-shirt from
your niece and you shrug it.
Oh interesting, she's comingfor you.
Justin's right.
Your kids need to learn thatboys don't get trophies for
being loud.
Katy Montgomery (17:10):
Yes, but we also need to learn, in this day
and age, where people areincredibly volatile and people
have crazy reactions, that youdon't match crazy with crazy.
You diffuse a situation and youmove on.
It's a ball.
Justin Joseph (17:28):
This is my favorite, justin.
I nearly spit out my drink whenyou roasted her jeans, but
seriously, you're right.
Parenting is about teachingcourage, not crowd pleasing.
Katy, grace is great at churchpotlucks, not when Karen and mom
just display.
Blow your kid out of his mouth.
Thank you, shannon from Chicago.
That is literally.
That summarizes my entire point.
Katy Montgomery (17:50):
Well, I'm just going to go below the belt here
and it's not a very kind thing.
But John from Seattle saysJustin, since you believe it's
important to stay on your groundand fight for what's yours,
have you confronted the personwho gave you the haircut?
You're still Rocky.
Justin Joseph (18:10):
Okay, so that?
Yeah, that was so.
That is a.
What do you call it A diss?
That's a diss, but it's likeit's an equal for me commenting
on her jeans.
It's an ad, hominid, yes, yeah.
Katy Montgomery (18:20):
Yes, meet, yes, meet, like and like.
And is that?
What we want in this country Isjust nastiness begetting
nastiness?
Justin Joseph (18:27):
So in our next segment we're going to come back
and have we talked about this?
We're going to talk about Findyour Friends.
For those of you who know whatit is, it's literally an app
where you can get it and you cantrack your best friends or your
spouse.
Katy thinks it's the worstinvasion of privacy this year
and I think it's a fun friendtool and way to make sure your
spouse isn't cheating.
Katy Montgomery (19:06):
Okay, well, we'll come back and we'll cover
it.
Then, to roast your favoritepiece of nonsense, email us at
wrongwayforwardpodcast atgmailcom.
Be sure to include your contactinfo.
We're not psychic, justjudgmental.
And now back to Wrong WayForward.
Announcer (19:21):
Roasting the worst advice ever.
Welcome back to the Katy andJustin podcast.
Katy Montgomery (19:26):
And we're back.
Thank you so much for listeners, for staying with us, and we
are going to talk aboutfollowing your friends, meaning
the app on Apple which is findyour friends, or some people
have something called Life 360.
And I want to state for therecord I think it is completely
fine from a safety and parentalconcern to follow your children
(19:47):
in order to kind of keep tabs onthem.
The question here that we'retalking about is should you be
following the moves and thesteps and the locations of your
friends?
Justin Joseph (19:58):
Yeah, so this is our favorite segment, because we
get this like can we talk aboutthis?
This has really nothing to dowith good advice or bad advice,
it's just something that can bedivisive, and apparently this is
you really have strong feelingsabout.
Katy Montgomery (20:08):
I did.
When you told me that you had ahandful of friends that you
followed, I thought first of all, this is a lack of boundaries.
This has issues of privacy.
I think that it leads to socialdrama and manipulation.
I think that there can be a lotof assumptions made just about
where someone is and whenthey're there.
(20:28):
Of course, that's the fun of it.
Justin Joseph (20:29):
Whatever happened to having fun with these kinds
of things?
Katy Montgomery (20:32):
Because I think that fun can delve into not fun
, and I think it is odd.
I think it's very strange forpeople at 40 plus to be
following each other.
Justin Joseph (20:42):
Okay, so let me first give some background here.
Like you're right, I have anumber of friends that we follow
, some that I haven't that Iwouldn't call close friends, but
they just have been, for onereason or another, somebody that
we followed, maybe because wehad to bed together or had a
weekend together and it's likehere's where I am and we never
got off of that.
But some of my friends becausethey're super close and it's fun
(21:03):
to know what they're doing andwhere they are and they know
what I'm doing and where I am.
Katy Montgomery (21:06):
But I've been here and you've made some
assumptions.
When you've looked at that kindof location information and you
start to kind of question andyou start to create kind of
ulterior motives, I don't thinkthat's very healthy.
Justin Joseph (21:17):
Okay, so I mean to be not specific.
Yes, I mean you have been privyto when we saw someone that was
somewhere and we didn't knowwhat that person was doing in
that area.
Yeah, but again, that's whatfriends do.
Katy Montgomery (21:31):
But I want to go back to, kind of the example
you gave is that you werefollowing some people that
weren't your closest, tightestfriends, and then you said it
just happened that we didn'tstop following each other.
Wouldn't it make sense,wouldn't the right way, rather
than the wrong way forward, beto like let's revisit this?
And then I think, if we arefollowing each other for a
specific purpose we're in Spain,we're camping, we're in Spain,
(21:55):
we're camping, we're taking aweekend vacation Wouldn't it be
smart, as adults, to reevaluate?
Thank you, we had it for apurpose.
Our contract among us was forthis particular event or
vacation.
Now we're going to ceasefollowing each other.
Justin Joseph (22:09):
Well, what I don't do often, but I will do
here, is I will prove your pointfor you.
There was a time many many ago,uh, where I was following a
friend and it became unhealthybecause I didn't feel like that
friendhood was treated being theway I should be treated, and my
following that person, um,became more of um, why was I not
(22:29):
invited to this particularthing or something?
Katy Montgomery (22:31):
so it was unhealthy yes, and what's, what
is the must?
I think there could be a fineline between following and
checking in and stalking.
Justin Joseph (22:41):
Okay, stalking is a big word for any friend group
.
It was not anything that had todo with that.
And you know, and the nicething about these apps is you
always have the option of sayingyou don't get to follow me or I
don't want you to follow meanymore.
Katy Montgomery (22:52):
Yeah, you always have the option of saying
you don't get to follow me or Idon't want you to follow me
anymore.
Yeah, but you could have afriend like me who's a
technological idiot and doesn'teven realize it's happening, or
has gone for a fun weekend.
The objective was having a goodtime.
I'm stepping away from theweekend and going right into my
work week.
I forget that it was even off.
Justin Joseph (23:09):
And what's it for me and you, who are very close?
What would be the harm of that?
If you forgot it was on and Iknew you were at place X or
place Y or place Z?
Why would that threaten you?
Katy Montgomery (23:22):
I don't think the right word is threatened.
I think my first question wouldbe why do you care?
Get a life.
And then I think the secondpiece would be you know this is
an inappropriate relationship.
This is not what we're here todo.
This is not friendship tofollow someone, particularly
when you live in Denver and Ilive in DC.
If there were to be an issue,the SOS process would not be
(23:45):
very quick and speed.
Justin Joseph (23:47):
OK, so here's the proster me.
So I'm going to do specific,generalization, specific, so you
don't have a problem with mefollowing my spouse.
If you and your spouse agreedto that, I would have.
All of my friends have agreedto this.
I'm not following anythingwithout their knowledge, so that
that argument fails.
Do you have a problem with mefollowing my spouse?
Katy Montgomery (24:05):
yes, or not, not if there has been an
agreement.
But I think that you indicatedearlier that you have followed
people in the past and that itwas for a specific purpose and
that it just never yeah, butthey always have to agree.
Justin Joseph (24:17):
They have to share the location, so it's
always an agreement.
I can't just randomly followsomeone because I know where
they're at.
Katy Montgomery (24:25):
I think it's strange.
Justin Joseph (24:26):
OK, but just answer my question.
Do you think it's a problem fora spouse to follow a spouse?
Katy Montgomery (24:30):
No, if there's an agreement.
Tell me, why that's OK herspouse to follow a spouse?
No, if there's an agreement,because tell me why that's okay?
Because I think generallyspouses have a contract among
between the two of them to keeppeople abreast of where they are
and what they're doing and forsafety concerns but it has to do
with how close they're therelationship I mean, I would
agree.
Justin Joseph (24:50):
So I mean so, but my neck.
So if you agreed out, thenwould it be okay for a brother
to follow a sister or a sisterto follow a brother?
Katy Montgomery (24:56):
I think there are some families that do that.
I think we're talking aboutfriends.
Justin Joseph (25:00):
So I know, but that was about degrees of
relationship, Because spousesinvolve spouses and if that's
okay, then maybe brothersiblings can follow siblings.
Less of a relationship is stillimportant, the less.
The next step down is bestfriends.
What's the difference?
Katy Montgomery (25:19):
Well, I think generally, here's the issue of
two consenting adults agree.
I don't have a problem with it,but I have.
The problem is this is what aregrown adults doing, following
each other, and I have to tellyou my experience and I was
shocked that this behaviorexisted.
It was not for safety orconcern, it was literally for
drama and discussion and to beable to shoot the breeze.
Justin Joseph (25:44):
I think that that is an incorrect assumption.
Katy Montgomery (25:47):
It's not an assumption.
It's based on what I observed.
Justin Joseph (25:49):
Well, it's one situation, but I think we still
have to go back to the fact thatyou're okay with spouses
following spouses.
You may be okay with siblingsfollowing siblings.
The next step down is youshouldn't be okay with best
friends following best friends.
There's nothing.
Katy Montgomery (26:01):
Again, I don't have a problem if it's
consensual.
I just think it's strange.
I think it's very strange and Ithink generally I think that we
have gotten to a point in this,in the world, where people
don't have kind of anindependence.
There's a constant kind ofoverwatch, and I think we do
need to be careful about privacy, because once it starts to
(26:23):
erode and people, it's veryinteresting.
I mean, this is the lawyer inme speaking, but people are
always like, oh, I don't care ifsomebody watches that or
observes me or does that,because they're like I'm not
doing anything wrong.
But then if the line moves asto what is wrong and what is not
as right, I just find this tobe a general kind of awkward and
odd kind of intention of doingthis, particularly at this age.
Justin Joseph (26:48):
And I think your logic fails because you are okay
with spouses doing it and maybesiblings, then all that logic
has to apply.
Katy Montgomery (26:54):
Well, well, I would never follow my spouse and
I would hope my spouse wouldn'tfollow me, but I'm okay with
anyone who are too consentingadults I've always been
consenting.
Justin Joseph (27:02):
I'm not we do this, but I'm saying it's just
weird and strange and also, Ithink, what's that?
Katy Montgomery (27:09):
what particularly you know spouses?
It's like, what's the trust andwhat is this?
I think there's a bigger issueat play if you're constantly
following your spouse.
Justin Joseph (27:17):
Okay.
Well, we want to hear what youthink.
I mean.
Obviously, this is anotherexample of something Katy and I
are not going to agree upon, butwe want to hear what you think,
so email us atwrongwayforwardpodcasts at
gmailcom.
Next week, we're tackling moreof this week's best and worst
advice.
We're going to tell you moreabout why we think some of your
favorite thought thinkers haveit wrong, and we'll see you next
(27:38):
week on Wrong Way Forward.
Katy Montgomery (27:40):
It's great.
See you then.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of
Wrong Way Forward.
Remember, the only thing worsethan taking bad advice is giving
it.
Katy Montgomery (27:48):
If you've liked what you've heard, like
subscribe or follow us whereveryou stream podcasts, and if
you've got a topic or need someadvice, we'll probably regret
giving email us atwrongwayforwardpodcast at
gmailcom.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Wrong
Way Forward.
She's Katy Montgomery , he's Justin Joseph.
These best friends are servingsubpoenas to bad advice weekly
with Wrong Way Forward.
The advice column reboot.
You never knew you neededSparks fly, and so does the
hilarity.
Now here's Katy and Justin.
Katy Montgomery (00:17):
Hi, my name is Katy Montgomery and I'm here
with my best friend, justinJoseph.
And welcome to episode three ofWrong Way Forward.
Justin Joseph (00:24):
Hi everybody.
So good to see everybody outthere.
We're so excited to be on ourthird episode, where we really
cover some interesting topics sofar, don't you think?
Katy Montgomery (00:31):
I mean definitely.
I think we've covered um flyballs, bad restaurant behavior
raw dogging which you had noidea about.
Um, I do what raw dogging on along flight.
Justin Joseph (00:42):
Well, I feel like we need to address this first,
because after the last episode,you literally pulled me inside
and were mortified that yourmom's best friends are going to
see this, and I think that wouldbe more embarrassing.
You didn't know what rawdogging is.
You're more freaked out that Iexplained what raw dogging was.
Katy Montgomery (00:58):
Well, that still holds, and that's the case
, and you can't change anythingno-transcript.
Justin Joseph (01:35):
Is that runway is a beacon of light for gay
little kids who are hiding theirbedspreads reading a magazine.
For me, that was over.
Every day.
I would come home to watchOprah, and not just because I
thought she was I mean, Ithought she was a beacon of
light but because she was abroadcaster and I thought that's
, that's what I want to do soyou, you let the cat out of the
bag.
Katy Montgomery (01:55):
It is Oprah.
And just to let all of ourlisteners know, when I knew
Justin, shortly after college,he did have a framed autographed
photo of Oprah on full display.
So she has really been, as yousaid, a beacon of light for you.
Yeah, she's someone whoprobably doesn't curry as much
favor as she did, you know.
Justin Joseph (02:17):
Well, you've never been a huge Oprah fan.
Why is that?
I think?
Katy Montgomery (02:20):
you thought.
Justin Joseph (02:20):
I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth,
but I remember from when I usedto talk about it you were like
not impressed.
Katy Montgomery (02:26):
No, that's actually not correct.
That's factually incorrect.
I've always been impressed byOprah.
How can you not be impressed?
Justin Joseph (02:32):
by Oprah.
I feel like we need a buttwhere we can just sit and you
can be like that's factuallyincorrect with me, Because I
feel like that's a theme.
Katy Montgomery (02:47):
Well, it is because we know that you
exaggerate the truth quite a bit.
But you know, and I actually dohave a crazy kind of story
connection to Oprah.
Oprah is from my home state ofMississippi and I attended kind
of what we lovingly call theNerd School, mississippi School
for Math and Science, andactually I was in the third
graduating class and we didwrite Oprah a letter asking if
she would return to her homestate and be our featured
speaker.
She passed on that and in factI don't asking if she would
return to her home state and beour featured speaker.
She passed on that and in factI don't know if she ever
(03:09):
formally did, but she is someonewho is very well regarded and I
think today we're going to kindof step out on a limb and do
something that some people mightsay is sacrilegious and say the
advice that we're going tocover that she gave was the
wrong way forward okay and Iagree we'll get there.
Justin Joseph (03:28):
Um, I would only say, like you and I were lucky
enough to have a, and we'll getbeyond by obvious fascination
with her.
Yes, we were lucky enough tohave a friend who was one of the
producers and so, after wegraduated and I still adored her
and I got into broadcasting andadored her more um, we were
able to contact our friend and Iwas like, can you get me to the
show?
Those tickets were impossible,yes, to have, and so she really
(03:51):
greenlighted me to the showseveral times and, um, I'll
remember the two episodes.
I remember specifically onewhere I sat because I knew where
she came out and she turned,she walked right out and walked
right past me.
I was on the aisle and Iremember being devastated my
heart, like that's it and thenshe literally turned around,
looked at me from, I meanliterally turned around and said
(04:11):
you have a really cute shirt onand kept going.
So that I'll never forget thatmoment, of course.
And the second episode I hadlied at work because I was at
the prosecutor's office andthey're like you know, I did.
I don't know if I have anyvacation time, but I think Molly
, our producer friend, gave usone day, you can come on this
date, and I was like, oh, I willbe there.
(04:31):
Yes, and so I was there and I,literally, I remember at the
beginning they said the only waynot to get on camera is if you
chew gum or read herteleprompter.
Yes, so I read the entireteleprompter.
I chewed gum because I did notwant anyone back in debt or be
like why is justin there when hecalled and said to her there
(04:52):
you go so so, and it's going tobe interesting to see what
happens when we process whetheror not her advice was the wrong
way forward.
Katy Montgomery (04:59):
Where you're going to land yeah, 100.
Justin Joseph (05:02):
so we're going to listen to advice.
This is from 2008.
It was for Stanfordcommencement address, again, not
surprising.
I think we feel a little bitdifferently about the advice,
but let's listen to her adviceand we'll take it up on the
other side.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
What I know now is that feelings are really your
GPS system for life.
When you're supposed to dosomething or not supposed to do
something, your emotionalguidance system lets you know.
The trick is to learn to checkyour ego at the door and start
checking your gut instead.
Every right decision I've made,every right decision I've ever
(05:39):
made, has come from my gut, andevery wrong decision I've ever
made was a result of me notlistening to the greater voice
of myself.
If it doesn't feel right, don'tdo it.
That's the lesson, and thatlesson alone will save you, my
(06:00):
friends, a lot of grief.
Justin Joseph (06:02):
So we'll stop there.
I mean, I think on its face itsounds like good advice, but you
think it's the wrong wayforward.
Katy Montgomery (06:08):
Well, I, you know, I coach a lot of
executives and there is thisconcept kind of called the rider
and the elephant.
The idea is imagine you knowthe average person, let's say
that they're.
You know approximately 150pounds.
You know approximately 150pounds.
(06:30):
Imagine an elephant.
That's six tons.
So the rider is your logicalbrain.
That is the one that isprocessing the evidence, the
data.
It's doing something that'slogical.
Your emotional brain is thatelephant.
It's six tons, it takes overand 150 person cannot steer a
six-ton elephant.
And what I find is that when wehave our emotional brain take
over, our emotional brain isbrilliant.
(06:52):
It can tell us crazy stories,it can argue us out of something
, it can give us all of thesemotivations that everyone around
us, that we think they have,when actually we don't know that
as a fact.
Justin Joseph (07:05):
So let me dumb that down.
So you're saying your emotionalbrain can tell you you look
good in that outfit, which youdon't, because you're like
excited that you just bought it.
Katy Montgomery (07:12):
Or I think the better example is.
I think the better examplewould be is that you say I can't
speak up in this meetingbecause your emotional brain is
saying I'm going to saysomething stupid.
I'm not as educated as everyonein the room.
I don't have a senior position,you know.
(07:34):
I'm not, you know I'm notsomeone who normally, you know,
speaks as an expert in thisspace.
So therefore I'm not going tospeak.
Justin Joseph (07:41):
Yes, Go ahead Sorry.
Katy Montgomery (07:42):
Just telling yourself stories and the
emotional brain does that.
It's not logical.
Justin Joseph (07:47):
For me that shows up in my age.
I walk into a place and I thinkI'm too old, Like I had a job
last year where I had to wear asuit and I just don't think I've
ever felt older than when I puta suit on.
I just do not think it'sattractive.
But you're saying that's allemotional brain.
Katy Montgomery (08:01):
That's emotional brain, and I think
what Oprah is saying is like.
And if we listen to a furtherclip which I think is really
important is she said youremotion should be your GPS
system.
It should be what guides you.
And I'm not saying takeemotions or gut out of the
system, but you have to notforget about logic.
You can't forget about the dataand the pieces that you're
(08:24):
taking in.
Forget about logic.
You can't forget about the dataand the pieces that you're
taking in.
And if we allow ourselves toonly move on emotion, we might
be steering down the wrong path.
And I think it's very easy forOprah to say that when she's at
Stanford, a very, you knowprestigious university, giving a
graduation speech, when she'sbeen on the Forbes you know 50,
when she's considered the numberone queen of all talk media,
(08:48):
it's very easy, 2020 vision, tosay follow your gut.
Justin Joseph (08:52):
And she's Oprah also, right to your point.
Katy Montgomery (08:53):
Yes, she's.
Justin Joseph (08:54):
Oprah.
When you're Oprah, you can sayanything Correct.
Okay, so let's listen.
You said there's a couple ofthings we wanted to highlight.
Let's listen to Oprah'scontinued speech and we'll catch
up on the other end and startchecking your gut instead.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Everyone knows so what I know now is that feelings
are really your GPS system forlife.
When you're supposed to dosomething or not supposed to do
something, your emotionalguidance system lets you know.
The trick is to learn to checkyour ego at the door and start
(09:28):
checking your gut.
Justin Joseph (09:29):
instead, you say what to that?
Katy Montgomery (09:30):
I say that your emotional GPS is really, you
know, could take you down thewrong path.
Emotions can take us into apath of you know.
We can go back and visitperiods of trauma.
We can be nervous, we can beanxious, and that can take over
that logical brain that is ableto take in the real data, the
(09:52):
real story as it's evolving,rather than the story we tell
ourselves.
Justin Joseph (09:56):
Love that, and so I think there's some real
takeaways.
Whether you're a student,whether you're a high-level or
C-level manager, a high-levelexecutive, a high level
executive, I think there's somereal takeaways.
We're going to talk about those.
On the other side of the breakPlus, we're going to talk about
some viewer emails from ourepisode last week, and we'll
evaluate all that and takeanother look when we get back
right up to this.
Katy Montgomery (10:17):
You've been listening to Wrong Way Forward,
where bad advice goes to die andthen gets resurrected, just so
we can roast it again.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
That's right, Katy.
Nobody's off limits not thegurus, not the influencers, and
definitely not Oprah.
Katy Montgomery (10:30):
Sorry, Oprah.
Speaker 6 (10:31):
If you're enjoying the chaos, hit like and
subscribe and come back everyThursday for new episodes.
Katy Montgomery (10:36):
Have a new topic or some disastrously bad
advice you want to dissect?
Email wrongwayforwardpodcast atgmailcom.
Include your contact info.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Now back to Wrong Way Forward.
Announcer (10:48):
Roasting the worst advice ever.
Welcome back to the Katy andJustin podcast.
Justin Joseph (10:52):
So welcome back to Wrong Way Forward.
This week we're talking aboutone of America's most beloved
advice givers, oprah Winfrey,and we took on her 2008
commencement speech, where shetalks about following your gut
and how that could be yourgreatest guide moving forward.
You say that's not the rightadvice.
It's the wrong advice.
You say that because why?
Katy Montgomery (11:11):
Well, it's the wrong way forward and I think,
if you think about what sheactually said, is that your
emotion should be your GPS.
So imagine that you were adriver in a car using a GPS
system and you're blindlyfollowing what the GPS is saying
.
You've also got to take in thedata.
Has there been a car accident?
You know.
Is there a, you know, crazydriver?
(11:31):
you know, and you need to kindof focus defensive driving, you
know so we just kind of are youknow, or is there you know a
horrible driver and you need tokind of respond to that, you
know?
Is there construction in theroad that maybe that gps hasn't
taken care of?
Emotions are important, gut isimportant, but people need to be
(11:53):
very aware when makingdecisions is to not let that
cloud and totally be blind towhat are the facts and the data
that they're taking in and Ilove this because you know kat
facts and the data that they'retaking in.
Justin Joseph (12:05):
And I love this because you know Katy and I were
talking while we were offduring the break and she said
you know, is this excitingenough of an episode?
But the truth is not all.
Life is fun and, you know,laugh out loud.
Sometimes there are realtakeaways and that's one of the
things we want to pass across inour broadcasts is sometimes
there's some real takeaways fromour advice.
Katy Montgomery (12:21):
And we are.
So I don't think we evenrealize on a day-to-day basis
how much we are alreadyinfluenced by our emotions, the
way you see something, the wayyou interpret something, your
gut reaction to something that'sbeen influenced by a former
negative reaction that might notbe fair in the current you know
kind of climate, and so that'swhy you can't be, as Oprah said,
(12:45):
totally focused on the emotion.
There has to be the logicalpiece.
Justin Joseph (12:50):
And you see the showing up again and again in
coaching sessions.
Katy Montgomery (12:52):
Yes, I mean millions of times, and you know
the examples are plentiful wherepeople tell themselves stories
and it's based on the emotionthey might be feeling, the
emotion of anxiety orinferiority, or nervousness.
And that translates to I'm notsmart enough to speak up, I'm
not senior enough to speak up,I'm too old.
(13:12):
In my case, I'm too old, yes,where again the logical piece
should be I've done the homework, or I've been assigned this
project, or I have somethingvalid to say, and so we need to
be careful to not 100% sit inthat emotional space.
Justin Joseph (13:30):
I love that.
I think that's great advice.
I think it's you know, and it'shard to take on a thought
leader like Oprah, but sometimesnot everybody's right.
Katy Montgomery (13:38):
Well, and sometimes even the most famous
of advice givers can go thewrong way forward.
Justin Joseph (13:44):
Exactly All right .
So now it's time to revisit ourlast week's episode and talk
about some of our viewer emailson why either you were right or
maybe they thought I was right,right.
Let's start with.
Our most popular topic lastweek, from looking at our data,
was the discussion over thewoman who came in to take the
child's.
So there was a home run ball, afather caught up for her son
(14:06):
and you see this woman run inwith bad genes and she couldn't
see what she was saying to thatbecause her back backwards to
the camera but he ends up givingher the ball.
I thought that was the wrongway.
He thought it was the right way.
Speaker 5 (14:17):
Correct, correct.
Justin Joseph (14:18):
And I think some of our viewers agreed with me
more than they agreed with you.
And so let's talk about some ofour viewer emails that came
through Hi.
Let's talk about some of ourviewer emails that came through
Hi team.
I just listened to Katy.
I love you.
Your logic this week had moreholes than my kid's soccer net.
Justin, keep a smug tone.
You earned it.
I'm not sure I love that, butit's an email that thought I was
on the right side.
You.
Katy Montgomery (14:37):
Well, I mean, I think what's really interesting
, as I heard it said, isJustin's commitment to standing
on his principles unwavering, ordoes it only apply to fights he
knows he could win, likeagainst a restaurant's wine list
or a woman with bad genes?
Justin Joseph (14:52):
Oh, someone actually wrote about bad genes.
I mean, I know that was alittle bit out of common sense,
but she really didn't have badgenes.
On what else do we have?
Katy?
Denial isn't a valid debatestrategy.
Justin was right.
The people have spoken.
Take the L with grace and abottle of cheap wine.
Ouch, that's like cutting home.
Katy Montgomery (15:15):
Well, I mean, I'm really hesitant to read the
next one because I think it'sjust pure nasty, but because
you're throwing, you know, somecurve balls, Justin, since you
think that the dad should havestood his ground against the
Philly's Karen and punched herin the face, would you have done
the same If the woman whocalled you oh sorry, I can't, I
(15:39):
can't read it anymore.
Oh sorry, I can't, I can't readit anymore.
Oh, excuse me, I don't reallywant to say this one, but since
you are throwing a lot of curveballs and hitting a little bit
below the bell, Justin, sinceyou think the dad should have
stood his ground against thePhilly's care and punched her in
the face, would you have donethe same with the woman who
called you right and demandedyour framed quote back?
(16:00):
Do you remember when you saidthat you would have a framed
quote up in your next?
Justin Joseph (16:06):
So now we're going to turn to the segment
where we take on last week'sspirit emails from our
discussion last weekend One ofthe hottest topics and looking
at our data from last week,where people have really strong
positions on the woman who ranover.
When the father caught the foulball at the baseball game and
gave it to his child, the womanran over and let him have it and
he gave her the ball, and Ithought that was totally
(16:27):
unacceptable.
You had a different take.
Katy Montgomery (16:28):
I did.
I mean, I thought that you know, for the sake of you know,
keeping the peace and you know,and giving a teaching moment to
the son, and you know, and it'sreally interesting because you
know I've also worked for peopleand you know, and it's really
interesting because you knowI've also worked for people and
you know, and it's it's reallyinteresting.
And it said, given Justin'sprincipal stance on cheap wine
(16:49):
and fighting for a baseball, whyisn't he taking on big beer or
big soda for the sake of hisrelationship?
Justin Joseph (16:54):
That doesn't make any sense.
I have a few that support myposition, Katy, you seriously
let someone snatch on adultsnatch an adult t-shirt from
your niece and you shrug it.
Oh interesting, she's comingfor you.
Justin's right.
Your kids need to learn thatboys don't get trophies for
being loud.
Katy Montgomery (17:10):
Yes, but we also need to learn, in this day
and age, where people areincredibly volatile and people
have crazy reactions, that youdon't match crazy with crazy.
You diffuse a situation and youmove on.
It's a ball.
Justin Joseph (17:28):
This is my favorite, justin.
I nearly spit out my drink whenyou roasted her jeans, but
seriously, you're right.
Parenting is about teachingcourage, not crowd pleasing.
Katy, grace is great at churchpotlucks, not when Karen and mom
just display.
Blow your kid out of his mouth.
Thank you, shannon from Chicago.
That is literally.
That summarizes my entire point.
Katy Montgomery (17:50):
Well, I'm just going to go below the belt here
and it's not a very kind thing.
But John from Seattle saysJustin, since you believe it's
important to stay on your groundand fight for what's yours,
have you confronted the personwho gave you the haircut?
You're still Rocky.
Justin Joseph (18:10):
Okay, so that?
Yeah, that was so.
That is a.
What do you call it A diss?
That's a diss, but it's likeit's an equal for me commenting
on her jeans.
It's an ad, hominid, yes, yeah.
Katy Montgomery (18:20):
Yes, meet, yes, meet, like and like.
And is that?
What we want in this country Isjust nastiness begetting
nastiness?
Justin Joseph (18:27):
So in our next segment we're going to come back
and have we talked about this?
We're going to talk about Findyour Friends.
For those of you who know whatit is, it's literally an app
where you can get it and you cantrack your best friends or your
spouse.
Katy thinks it's the worstinvasion of privacy this year
and I think it's a fun friendtool and way to make sure your
spouse isn't cheating.
Katy Montgomery (19:06):
Okay, well, we'll come back and we'll cover
it.
Then, to roast your favoritepiece of nonsense, email us at
wrongwayforwardpodcast atgmailcom.
Be sure to include your contactinfo.
We're not psychic, justjudgmental.
And now back to Wrong WayForward.
Announcer (19:21):
Roasting the worst advice ever.
Welcome back to the Katy andJustin podcast.
Katy Montgomery (19:26):
And we're back.
Thank you so much for listeners, for staying with us, and we
are going to talk aboutfollowing your friends, meaning
the app on Apple which is findyour friends, or some people
have something called Life 360.
And I want to state for therecord I think it is completely
fine from a safety and parentalconcern to follow your children
(19:47):
in order to kind of keep tabs onthem.
The question here that we'retalking about is should you be
following the moves and thesteps and the locations of your
friends?
Justin Joseph (19:58):
Yeah, so this is our favorite segment, because we
get this like can we talk aboutthis?
This has really nothing to dowith good advice or bad advice,
it's just something that can bedivisive, and apparently this is
you really have strong feelingsabout.
Katy Montgomery (20:08):
I did.
When you told me that you had ahandful of friends that you
followed, I thought first of all, this is a lack of boundaries.
This has issues of privacy.
I think that it leads to socialdrama and manipulation.
I think that there can be a lotof assumptions made just about
where someone is and whenthey're there.
(20:28):
Of course, that's the fun of it.
Justin Joseph (20:29):
Whatever happened to having fun with these kinds
of things?
Katy Montgomery (20:32):
Because I think that fun can delve into not fun
, and I think it is odd.
I think it's very strange forpeople at 40 plus to be
following each other.
Justin Joseph (20:42):
Okay, so let me first give some background here.
Like you're right, I have anumber of friends that we follow
, some that I haven't that Iwouldn't call close friends, but
they just have been, for onereason or another, somebody that
we followed, maybe because wehad to bed together or had a
weekend together and it's likehere's where I am and we never
got off of that.
But some of my friends becausethey're super close and it's fun
(21:03):
to know what they're doing andwhere they are and they know
what I'm doing and where I am.
Katy Montgomery (21:06):
But I've been here and you've made some
assumptions.
When you've looked at that kindof location information and you
start to kind of question andyou start to create kind of
ulterior motives, I don't thinkthat's very healthy.
Justin Joseph (21:17):
Okay, so I mean to be not specific.
Yes, I mean you have been privyto when we saw someone that was
somewhere and we didn't knowwhat that person was doing in
that area.
Yeah, but again, that's whatfriends do.
Katy Montgomery (21:31):
But I want to go back to, kind of the example
you gave is that you werefollowing some people that
weren't your closest, tightestfriends, and then you said it
just happened that we didn'tstop following each other.
Wouldn't it make sense,wouldn't the right way, rather
than the wrong way forward, beto like let's revisit this?
And then I think, if we arefollowing each other for a
specific purpose we're in Spain,we're camping, we're in Spain,
(21:55):
we're camping, we're taking aweekend vacation Wouldn't it be
smart, as adults, to reevaluate?
Thank you, we had it for apurpose.
Our contract among us was forthis particular event or
vacation.
Now we're going to ceasefollowing each other.
Justin Joseph (22:09):
Well, what I don't do often, but I will do
here, is I will prove your pointfor you.
There was a time many many ago,uh, where I was following a
friend and it became unhealthybecause I didn't feel like that
friendhood was treated being theway I should be treated, and my
following that person, um,became more of um, why was I not
(22:29):
invited to this particularthing or something?
Katy Montgomery (22:31):
so it was unhealthy yes, and what's, what
is the must?
I think there could be a fineline between following and
checking in and stalking.
Justin Joseph (22:41):
Okay, stalking is a big word for any friend group
.
It was not anything that had todo with that.
And you know, and the nicething about these apps is you
always have the option of sayingyou don't get to follow me or I
don't want you to follow meanymore.
Katy Montgomery (22:52):
Yeah, you always have the option of saying
you don't get to follow me or Idon't want you to follow me
anymore.
Yeah, but you could have afriend like me who's a
technological idiot and doesn'teven realize it's happening, or
has gone for a fun weekend.
The objective was having a goodtime.
I'm stepping away from theweekend and going right into my
work week.
I forget that it was even off.
Justin Joseph (23:09):
And what's it for me and you, who are very close?
What would be the harm of that?
If you forgot it was on and Iknew you were at place X or
place Y or place Z?
Why would that threaten you?
Katy Montgomery (23:22):
I don't think the right word is threatened.
I think my first question wouldbe why do you care?
Get a life.
And then I think the secondpiece would be you know this is
an inappropriate relationship.
This is not what we're here todo.
This is not friendship tofollow someone, particularly
when you live in Denver and Ilive in DC.
If there were to be an issue,the SOS process would not be
(23:45):
very quick and speed.
Justin Joseph (23:47):
OK, so here's the proster me.
So I'm going to do specific,generalization, specific, so you
don't have a problem with mefollowing my spouse.
If you and your spouse agreedto that, I would have.
All of my friends have agreedto this.
I'm not following anythingwithout their knowledge, so that
that argument fails.
Do you have a problem with mefollowing my spouse?
Katy Montgomery (24:05):
yes, or not, not if there has been an
agreement.
But I think that you indicatedearlier that you have followed
people in the past and that itwas for a specific purpose and
that it just never yeah, butthey always have to agree.
Justin Joseph (24:17):
They have to share the location, so it's
always an agreement.
I can't just randomly followsomeone because I know where
they're at.
Katy Montgomery (24:25):
I think it's strange.
Justin Joseph (24:26):
OK, but just answer my question.
Do you think it's a problem fora spouse to follow a spouse?
Katy Montgomery (24:30):
No, if there's an agreement.
Tell me, why that's OK herspouse to follow a spouse?
No, if there's an agreement,because tell me why that's okay?
Because I think generallyspouses have a contract among
between the two of them to keeppeople abreast of where they are
and what they're doing and forsafety concerns but it has to do
with how close they're therelationship I mean, I would
agree.
Justin Joseph (24:50):
So I mean so, but my neck.
So if you agreed out, thenwould it be okay for a brother
to follow a sister or a sisterto follow a brother?
Katy Montgomery (24:56):
I think there are some families that do that.
I think we're talking aboutfriends.
Justin Joseph (25:00):
So I know, but that was about degrees of
relationship, Because spousesinvolve spouses and if that's
okay, then maybe brothersiblings can follow siblings.
Less of a relationship is stillimportant, the less.
The next step down is bestfriends.
What's the difference?
Katy Montgomery (25:19):
Well, I think generally, here's the issue of
two consenting adults agree.
I don't have a problem with it,but I have.
The problem is this is what aregrown adults doing, following
each other, and I have to tellyou my experience and I was
shocked that this behaviorexisted.
It was not for safety orconcern, it was literally for
drama and discussion and to beable to shoot the breeze.
Justin Joseph (25:44):
I think that that is an incorrect assumption.
Katy Montgomery (25:47):
It's not an assumption.
It's based on what I observed.
Justin Joseph (25:49):
Well, it's one situation, but I think we still
have to go back to the fact thatyou're okay with spouses
following spouses.
You may be okay with siblingsfollowing siblings.
The next step down is youshouldn't be okay with best
friends following best friends.
There's nothing.
Katy Montgomery (26:01):
Again, I don't have a problem if it's
consensual.
I just think it's strange.
I think it's very strange and Ithink generally I think that we
have gotten to a point in this,in the world, where people
don't have kind of anindependence.
There's a constant kind ofoverwatch, and I think we do
need to be careful about privacy, because once it starts to
(26:23):
erode and people, it's veryinteresting.
I mean, this is the lawyer inme speaking, but people are
always like, oh, I don't care ifsomebody watches that or
observes me or does that,because they're like I'm not
doing anything wrong.
But then if the line moves asto what is wrong and what is not
as right, I just find this tobe a general kind of awkward and
odd kind of intention of doingthis, particularly at this age.
Justin Joseph (26:48):
And I think your logic fails because you are okay
with spouses doing it and maybesiblings, then all that logic
has to apply.
Katy Montgomery (26:54):
Well, well, I would never follow my spouse and
I would hope my spouse wouldn'tfollow me, but I'm okay with
anyone who are too consentingadults I've always been
consenting.
Justin Joseph (27:02):
I'm not we do this, but I'm saying it's just
weird and strange and also, Ithink, what's that?
Katy Montgomery (27:09):
what particularly you know spouses?
It's like, what's the trust andwhat is this?
I think there's a bigger issueat play if you're constantly
following your spouse.
Justin Joseph (27:17):
Okay.
Well, we want to hear what youthink.
I mean.
Obviously, this is anotherexample of something Katy and I
are not going to agree upon, butwe want to hear what you think,
so email us atwrongwayforwardpodcasts at
gmailcom.
Next week, we're tackling moreof this week's best and worst
advice.
We're going to tell you moreabout why we think some of your
favorite thought thinkers haveit wrong, and we'll see you next
(27:38):
week on Wrong Way Forward.
Katy Montgomery (27:40):
It's great.
See you then.
Speaker 6 (27:41):
All right, that's a wrap on this week's episode of
Wrong Way Forward.
Remember, the only thing worsethan taking bad advice is giving
it.
Katy Montgomery (27:48):
If you've liked what you've heard, like
subscribe or follow us whereveryou stream podcasts, and if
you've got a topic or need someadvice, we'll probably regret
giving email us atwrongwayforwardpodcast at
gmailcom.
Speaker 6 (28:02):
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Wrong
Way Forward.
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