August 5, 2025 • 38 mins
What becomes possible when you stop trying to prove yourself and start building something that reflects who you truly are?
In this episode, Dr. Caroline Sangal talks with Dr. Jeff Kiplinger, a PhD chemist, bestselling author, and entrepreneur whose career has spanned scientific leadership, business ownership, and incredible growth through real-world experience.
Jeff shares how he navigated the unexpected loss of his job at Pfizer, a role he once believed would define his entire career, and how that turning point led him to build something of his own. He founded Averica Discovery, grew it through the 2008 recession, sold it successfully, and now helps other science-driven companies grow through smart sales and communication strategies. His story is shaped by resilience, reinvention, and a willingness to figure things out as he went.
Inside this conversation:
- How Jeff discovered his love for science and earned a PhD
- The emotional impact of losing a job and the ripple effects that followed
- What scientists often miss when stepping into entrepreneurship
- How he learned to lead, sell, and communicate in a whole new way
- What success and fulfillment look like now, from rewilding land to singing bluegrass
If you're navigating a career shift or considering a leap into something new, Jeff’s story will help you feel seen, grounded, and inspired to keep moving forward.
đź”— Resources Mentioned:
- Jeff’s book: Expert to Entrepreneur on Amazon
- Jeff’s business: selling-science.com
- Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
What becomes possible when youstop trying to prove yourself
and start building somethingthat reflects who you really
are?
Caroline (00:15):
This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your
host, Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
I'm a life first career coachand strategist on a mission to
normalize questioning yourcareer because I believe each of
us is made on purpose for apurpose only we can fulfill.
The longer we live out ofalignment with who we are, what
(00:36):
we do best, and why we're here,the more we miss out.
And the more the world missesout on what only we can give.
The Your Next Success Podcast iswhere we explore how to build a
career that truly fuels yourlife.
We talk about self-discovery,smart job search strategies,
(00:57):
professional growth, and you'llhear stories from people who've
navigated big career transitionsthemselves so you can see what
it's really like to make boldchanges and feel inspired to
create your own version ofauthentic success, one that is
aligned, meaningful, and trulyyours.
(01:19):
Today's guest is Dr.
Jeffrey Kiplinger, a scientistturned entrepreneur whose
journey includes corporatehighs, identity shifts, and a
deep commitment to reinvention.
Jeff began his career in drugdevelopment at Pfizer, where he
and his team work to makeanalytical technologies more
(01:40):
accessible to R&D teams.
After a decade, he was let go, apivotal moment that pushed him
to redefine success and rebuildon his own terms.
Since then, Jeff hasdemonstrated what's possible
with clarity, resilience, and awillingness to keep trying.
(02:01):
He founded and sold AvericaDiscovery, authored the Amazon
best selling book, Expert toEntrepreneur, and co-founded
Selling Science, a firm helpingscience-based businesses grow
through smart sales strategy andcommunication.
In this conversation, Jeff and Italk about what it's like to go
(02:23):
from directionless high schoolerto PhD chemist, the emotional
weight of being let go, and howit affected his identity and
relationships, how he keptmoving forward, even through
economic downturns anduncertainty.
Why building a business takesmore than expertise and what
(02:43):
scientists often overlook thesurprising lessons he learned
about communication, sales, andredefining success.
This episode is for anyone who'snavigating career disruption,
rebuilding after a setback, orfeeling called to use their
expertise in a new way.
(03:04):
Jeff, welcome to Your Next Success I'm super excited
to have you on the podcasttoday.
How everything going for you?
Jeff Kiplinger (03:11):
Oh, it's great up here.
We have 95 degrees and 110degree heat index and we're just
enjoying the heck out of it.
Caroline (03:19):
where are you located these days?
Jeff Kiplinger (03:21):
Hudson River Valley
Caroline (03:22):
I'm glad that we got to meet several months ago.
What I'm trying to do on ourpodcast is to try to help people
understand different careertransitions, folks can look at
someone in the position thatthey have and they don't
understand the rollercoaster andsometimes it's tricky to
understand how people can makebig changes and do things like
(03:42):
that.
So if you wouldn't mind, I wouldlove to try to understand your
career story.
If we dialed it way back to wayback, back in the day when you
were trying to decide what youwanted to go to college for, how
did you make that decision?
How did that happen for you?
Jeff Kiplinger (04:02):
Well Iove this subject because I think life is
full of so many different careertransitions in a way.
I don't know that my journey isany different than anybody
else's.
When I graduated high school,you know, I was looking at
myself as kind of I had nodirection, I didn't know what I
was gonna do next and as amatter of fact, I applied to one
(04:24):
college because my parents toldme that if I didn't apply to a
college, they were gonna throwme out of the house.
So applied to one.
I applied in July and went inSeptember.
I don't know that anybody couldget away
Caroline (04:36):
Wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (04:37):
with that nowadays, but I applied to
Butler University and my parentswere both alums and maybe they
pulled some strings to get myapplication considered late.
But you know, I was a veryrebellious kid at that age.
When I hit college, I caughtfire.
So that was a whole newexperience for me.
I had just been slogging throughhigh school.
(04:58):
It was dull.
It was, it was difficult.
It was very routine.
But when I got to college,everything became possible and
I, I ate it up.
I ended up with a triple majorwhen I graduated.
Caroline (05:10):
And what were your majors?
When you went, when you had yourtriple major, what were those
subject fields and then whatwere you looking at for grad
school?
Jeff Kiplinger (05:19):
Chemistry, physics, and zoology
Caroline (05:21):
Oh,
Jeff Kiplinger (05:22):
But it was all sciences.
Right.
And you know, I really lovedcollege, but I, when to graduate
school, I had no self-disciplinefor basically being responsible
for my own education.
And it took me, I would say, ayear and a half to develop even
a, you know, a good idea that Icould succeed in graduate
school.
And during that period of time,I didn't really know that I was
(05:44):
gonna make it.
Graduate school in chemistry,which was the major that I
eventually chose organicchemistry.
If you were unsuccessful, youwere awarded a master's degree
if you'd made it so far duringthe program.
And a master's degree wasconsidered you know, by PhD
candidates to be a second best.
Caroline (06:05):
Consolation prize.
basically asking you to leaveAlthough there were a couple
people that chose that upfront,but then I always thought, do,
they know that there's thisperception that we're all
looking at them like they, theydidn't choose the hard thing,
but then they just chose whatwas best for them, I guess.
Jeff Kiplinger (06:24):
Hit the nail on the head there when you used
perception, right?
Because, what we are taught ineducational institutions is what
the faculty wants you to believeabout yourself and about the
educational process.
So I was taught a lot of thingsin graduate school.
I was taught that going to workin industry was a lower status
position than going to work inacademia.
(06:45):
And that if you weren't any good
Caroline (06:47):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (06:48):
ended up in industry instead of in another
university someplace.
And I've learned that's completegarbage.
And although I'm sure there arestill people in academia that
believe that you know, and, andmore power to them if they're
successful.
But but it is very difficult toget an academic position
Caroline (07:04):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (07:05):
and it is relatively straightforward to
get an industry position, and itought to be about whether you're
happy and whether you achievewhat you wanted to do with that
position than somebody'sexternal rating of whether
you're successful or not.
So I had all of that head trash,you know, am I gonna be able to
develop the self-disciplinenecessary?
Am gonna, am I gonna make itpast that cutoff where you're
(07:28):
told to leave with a master's?
Am I gonna make it into theglorified academic world?
Or am I gonna end up, a lowstatus person in industry?
And eventually I started torealize I needed to make my own
choices.
And so as I did develop theself-discipline necessary to
succeed, as I realized I wasgonna be able to get a PhD, that
(07:49):
I was gonna be able to write upa good solid dissertation and
that I did all of that on myown.
I began to feel that I could bemore self-directing in my
career.
And I went for a couple ofpostdocs, muddled through those,
found a nice position withPfizer, started my career there,
and then ultimately same headtrash.
(08:11):
You know, Are you goingmanagement?
Management is where the successtrack is.
Are you gonna become a topscientist with a lot
publications under your belt?
Are you going to succeed in thecorporate world, which is very
political and, very muchdominated by, you know, one
upmanship and and someenvironments?
You know, all of those thingskind of set me back a little bit
(08:32):
at times too.
Ultimately, when I left Pfizerand I was fired from Pfizer.
Caroline (08:37):
Oh wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (08:38):
I came into conflict after 10 years with my
management and and they told methat, wasn't welcome anymore and
I little settlement package andI went off and moped for a
couple of years and tried to getnew things going and then we hit
recessions.
You know, my efforts to start myown businesses were you know,
(08:58):
coming up against headwinds thatI had no control over.
And again, during this wholeprocess, you just learn that,
you know, you have to set yoursail in some direction and try
and identify the headwinds andsee if there's a way past them,
and if there's not, step back.
(09:18):
Try again.
Caroline (09:20):
For someone that had, you know, kind of risen and
overcome and the triple major,and then getting the PhD and
even landing the job at Pfizerand then after 10 years to get
that"no, we don't want you."
Jeff Kiplinger (09:36):
Yeah, it hurts
Caroline (09:38):
Like, were you pissed?
Was it a hit to your ego?
Was it an identity crash?
You know, did you think tryingyour own business was a
consolation prize?
Like what, what?
Walk me through that headspaceand then how you you got out of
it.
Jeff Kiplinger (09:54):
I did try to start businesses.
My first one was a single memberconsultancy, like a lot of
people who leave an industrialposition do.
My second one was a partnershipwith a gentleman where we were
building research parks, acrossthe US.
We did two or three of those.
And then, then he actually,found a much better career path
for himself.
(10:14):
He managed, to win the Powerballas a matter of fact.
So, you know, he, he started atvery different type of business
and moved to Hawaii and wedisbanded that.
I started a laboratory for aMidwestern company that was a
technology collaboration betweenthem and another group and we
rode that for a while until wehit the 2001 recession.
(10:36):
So, you know, some that youcould look at as false starts,
but they were all learningexperiences.
And when I started a contractresearch laboratory in the
Boston area, I had to figure outhow to make that successful.
So we, we went operational withthat on January 1st, 2008.
(10:58):
you'll probably remember thatLehman Brothers went under in
October of 2008, and that wasthe you know, a long period of
recession.
I remember meeting with a bunchof executives in Boston as part
of a peer networking group thatI was involved in, and they all
thought the world was gonnacollapse and it was never gonna
come back.
(11:18):
That was early 2009.
It was a scary time, but everyyear was an up year for us
because we figured out how tomanage for cash flow instead of
try and manage the P&L and sothere was a lot of learning to
do for me and for my upper levelemployees who became executives
in the company, and then weeventually rode that track
(11:41):
record to a pretty good level ofsuccess and sold the company in
2016.
Caroline (11:46):
So you started that company just like yourself or
you and a friend, and then grewit to how many people and then
sold it?
Jeff Kiplinger (11:54):
Well, I started it myself, and at the end I was,
I had awarded some amount ofstock to a few key employees,
but I was the, know, the themajority owner.
So it was really my baby.
But we were, at the time that wesold about 20 employees a low
single million dollar figures,in, not into the tens of
(12:17):
millions yet.
I sold the company primarilybecause the, the buyer which was
a Canadian based company, had aUS expansion plan that revolved
around acquiring other assets inthe United States, and I very
much wanted to learn how toevaluate the value of other
businesses and so I worked withthat team for about eight or
(12:40):
nine months, and then theirprivate equity owners made a
change in the managementstructure and I was sort of
pushed to the side and the restof the team was let go and they
went a new direction.
So when my
Caroline (12:54):
Wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (12:54):
contract was up, I left.
left.
Now that's not an unusual
Caroline (12:58):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (12:59):
not anything that I tried to control or, or
felt bad about not being able tocontrol.
That's just the vicissitudes ofof life, right.
things go and things come andchange and you ride it out.
I think the the earliertransitions that we were talking
about through college andgraduate school and, and first
job and so forth are, were muchmore things that I let
(13:23):
emotionally impact me.
Caroline (13:26):
Tell me about that and describe that a little bit more.
'Cause there could be somepeople at that.
So what do you mean by let thatyou let them emotionally impact
you?
Jeff Kiplinger (13:37):
Well, I would say the, the worst one was
leaving Pfizer.
Right?
Because, you know, everybodyknew that I'd left under
conflict.
You know, people didn't know thedetails of the, the arrangement
that I had with the company whenI left and the and the
settlement package and so forth.
But what they did know was that,I was I was pushed out and most
(14:00):
of my friends, I was living inSoutheastern Connecticut.
Right.
Suburban or exurban or almostrural in a way and so
everybody's spread out you know,across that area.
Everybody that I knew was aPfizer person.
And so, my ex-wife and I wouldgo to dinner with these people
and, you know, there'd be someamount of uncomfortableness of
(14:20):
talking about Pfizer around meso forth.
Eventually it did affect mymarriage, and, I think that that
might have been to a largedegree in my head that I felt
inadequate in providing my shareof the marriage, and so I was
(14:41):
driven to start the company inBoston because of that.
But it took several years, as Isaid, of false starts, some of
which were, because I didn'tknow enough, and some of which
were, because you know, thingshappen.
Caroline (14:54):
Nobody
Jeff Kiplinger (14:54):
predicts that their business partner is gonna
win the Powerball.
Caroline (14:57):
Right.
Although, can you predict that Iwould win it?
Can, can we, can we win ittogether?
I think we should buy a ticketand see.
Um,
Jeff Kiplinger (15:07):
You can't win if you don't play Caroline.
Caroline (15:08):
I know that is the thing.
That is the thing that, that'salways the, you know, yeah.
You didn't get the winninglottery ticket because you
didn't, you didn't buy it atall.
So.
Again
Jeff Kiplinger (15:18):
all that head came around being let go from
Pfizer having to be aroundPfizer, people not being able to
get back into that world.
You know wondering at the end ofevery discussion what my wife
was thinking of me and so forth.
You know, eventually kind of putme in a pretty bad place.
And I see people leaving Pfizertoday because they're still
(15:38):
doing rounds of layoffs, likeevery major pharmaceutical
company, and they're bitter.
And what I wish for them is thatthey don't remain bitter for
very long.
You know, you, you put your lifeinto a company like Pfizer, you,
you think that they love youback and they don't necessarily.
Everything's a businessdecision.
(16:00):
So, you know, to, trying topersonalize it and and think
that it's about you was reallymy mistake.
Caroline (16:07):
I did the same, honestly, because it felt like I
was, I was laid off in that 2009kind of upheaval.
And It was a hit to the ego, hitto the identity.
And I was, you know, originallythinking like, seriously, like
I'm on the list.
Like, don't you know who I am?
Don't you know what I've done?
How in the world did you put meon the list?
(16:30):
And, and I felt like.
Naively before it happened tome, I admit, I thought anyone
who had ever been laid off orlet go did something wrong, and
they must be a horrible person.
And then, you know, I wasthinking, well, wait, am I the
loser?
I must be the loser.
(16:50):
Because, because that personstayed and that person stayed
and I didn't think highly ofthem and they still had jobs,
but I didn't.
So it was a huge, huge thing.
Now in hind sight, I can lookback, and I say, thank God that
happened to me.
Seriously.
I'm so glad that happened to me,because what I've been able to
(17:11):
do since that time is leaps andbounds better and more suited to
who I actually am, that if I hadstayed there, but I naively
thought.
Oh, I'm gonna join this company.
I'm gonna stay for 40 years andthis, this, this.
And that's just how it's gonnago down.
So had you thought thatoriginally as well, when you
(17:33):
kind of joined Pfizer thinking,I'm gonna stay there forever?
Jeff Kiplinger (17:38):
I not only thought that I was told that
when I interviewed for theposition at Pfizer.
I remember going out for a walkat lunch on the campus with my
soon to be boss who told me thatbasically Pfizer had a policy
that if you made it through yourfirst six months, you were an
employee for life.
So he said, understand that whenyou join this company, you are
(18:01):
joining for your entire career.
Now believing that was mymistake.
I remember when Pfizer did itsfirst layoff, and this was prior
to the mergers with WarnerLambert and then later Park
Davis.
So they weren't expanding atthat point into, into, the
behemoth that they later becamebut I remember the first layoff
(18:22):
that came down just shockedeveryone in the company, they
eliminated an entire researcharea and nobody was familiar
with that ever happening.
So, yeah, and there are stillpeople, as I say, that are going
through layoffs now that areshocked and, you know, and
clearly emotionally coping withsomething that they never
(18:43):
expected to happen.
Because the attitude is, I'veput all of my energy into this,
right?
And you know, we can saypharmaceutical companies are
evil all we want, right?
But the reality is that everysingle person that goes to work
in those companies every daywants to do something good.
And they believe that by theslow, incremental process of
(19:04):
science, that they will make acontribution to human health.
Sometimes they, you know, it'llbe a very visible contribution.
Like they'll, they'll have theirname on a patent for a brand new
drug that's a big impact onhumanity.
But more often it's just thatyou're supporting teams that are
doing that type of work.
And you feel like I've put allmy energy into this.
(19:25):
I've been at work, you know, 50hours or more a week for years
and years and years dedicated tothis company.
And they just basically say,well, you know, you're a line
item and you're gone.
Caroline (19:35):
So then you decided you wanted to be in control of
your own destiny.
Had your own companies and thenafter you sold that then what
did you do
Jeff Kiplinger (19:46):
Well, yeah, that's an, that's an interesting
question.
So I did have to ride out thelast of my contract I did some,
griping to people around meabout that, but I didn't
personalize it the way that Idid with the Pfizer thing, or,
you know, with with my strugglesto develop the discipline
necessary to get throughgraduate school.
I didn't feel like, oh, Jeff,you are inadequate, you know.
(20:08):
Oh, Jeff, you know, you failed,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
It was just, I wish it hadturned out differently and rah,
gripe about it.
So, but ultimately I didn'tlinger on the fact out it didn't
work out I had made some moneyfrom selling the company.
I felt that I could retire if Ireally wanted to.
(20:32):
I told my wife that I would takea year off after I left at the
end of my contract.
and I did so.
So I left at the end of 2018.
Taking a year off brought me tothe end of 2019.
We all know what happened at thebeginning of 2020, so, you know,
I have perfect timing withrespect to these kind of things.
But what I found during thatyear that I took off was that
(20:53):
every single thing looked like abusiness to me.
I mean, there was a clam shackthat went out of business near
us, and I was like, I could buythat and I could turn it into a
place that made high end donuts.
And, you know, they would selllike, uh, by nine 30 in the
morning and then I could takethe rest of the day off
Caroline (21:12):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (21:13):
you know, could create a plant nursery.
There's a real need for that outhere.
You know, I could start abusiness in photography.
I could you know, I don't know.
Caroline (21:21):
So this entrepreneurial spirit was a
huge driver and it didn'tnecessarily matter what form.
Jeff Kiplinger (21:28):
It, it didn't, no, I really enjoyed after the
cycle of, of starting my lastcompany and selling it
successfully, I enjoyed that, inhindsight, it was a struggle at
times.
I mean, we had to get throughthat 2008 to 2010
Caroline (21:45):
recession
Jeff Kiplinger (21:45):
period.
The really worst of it, notknowing whether we were gonna
survive or not, and that thatweighs on you psychologically
and keeps you up at night andit's a tough time.
A lot of entrepreneurs that havebeen through that and some of
them I wrote about in the book Igot quotes from people who
talked about how it affectedtheir physical health to make it
through that period of time.
Caroline (22:48):
And let's talk about that book because you have
become a bestselling author toadd to your accolades and your
book is Expert to Entrepreneur.
Jeff Kiplinger (22:58):
Well, initially that was a COVID project.
You know, here I was aftertaking a year off and then
deciding to start a companythat, with my business partner
that was going to help CROs andcontract development firms sell
better to their scientistcustomers.
Right?
So we were just launching thatwhen COVID hit.
(23:20):
And then I had nothing to do fora while.
I thought, well, you know,before I forget, this whole
process of founding, growing andselling a contract research
firm, why don't I write it alldown?
And then float it around to afew people and see whether it
reads well?
So I did just that.
I'd never published a bookbefore.
(23:42):
I wrote something thatultimately was a fairly personal
account and looked to me like itcould be valuable to other
scientists who were in a similarposition of trying to test their
entrepreneurial skills, tryingto learn through that process,
and so I wrote Expert toEntrepreneur, and I found a
publisher and the book came out2021 I guess so about two years
(24:05):
after I started writing it andbecame an Amazon bestseller and
that's been a nice little bonusto see that something you've
written is useful to people andgets good feedback from people.
Caroline (24:17):
So did you write what you wish somebody had told you?
Jeff Kiplinger (24:20):
Not so much, I wrote what I experienced and how
I learned how to do it better.
I don't know that there'sanother book out there that
deals specifically with thestruggles that scientists have
with, you know, part of it isour own head trash.
I remember learning in seventhgrade in earth science class
that you had to write downeverything as though it was
(24:43):
completely impartial.
And so, in seventh grade, Ilearned to write in passive
voice instead of an activevoice.
So instead of I did this, thestuff was added to the stuff and
this was observed, you know, andso you become so hyper objective
that fail to develop the skillsto say what you believe.
(25:05):
And this was the biggeststruggle that myself and, and my
team members faced in sellingwhat we knew we were good at to
a customer.
Caroline (25:15):
So then how did you develop those skills?
Jeff Kiplinger (25:18):
I, took a sales training class with, you know, a
team of sales experts in theMetro West Boston area and
initially I struggled, I pushedback against everything they
said.
No, I can't do it that waybecause my customers are
scientists, they're different.
They don't expect to hear thingsthat way.
They expect me to stand thereand say totally objectively this
(25:40):
is what we do, you shouldevaluate it and decide whether
you wanna buy from me and itdoesn't work very well.
I'm basically forcing my clientto make a decision that they
don't have sufficientinformation to evaluate.
Caroline (25:55):
And then how did it evolve then?
Jeff Kiplinger (25:57):
Well, eventually I learned that, you know, if we
believe that what we were doingbrought something to the table,
we should talk about that.
This is why we do what we do.
This is what we believe itbrings to you, and then
immediately drop all of thatstuff about us and start asking
questions to see whether we candetermine if we are a good fit
(26:19):
for the customer's problem.
It's a different approach fromstanding up at a scientific
conference and presenting apaper where you objectively
display all of the data and yousay, these are our conclusions,
but your conclusions may bedifferent.
Please take this work and bridgeforward from there.
That objective way of presentingis what we're all taught, but it
(26:41):
doesn't work when you're talkingto a customer where you have to
evaluate.
What are they thinking about theimpact of the problem that
they're having?
Does it impact the organizationenough for them to spend money
on fixing it?
What are their other solutionsthat they've looked at in the
past?
What are those?
And those could include anothercontract firm.
(27:03):
It could include anotherresearch path that we don't have
any impact on.
It could include buying a pieceof equipment that we don't have
in our laboratory.
In those cases, I have to bewilling to say, you know, that
might be a better solution foryou, but
Caroline (27:20):
I see.
Because as scientists we'reobjective and we're just
skeptical.
So it's always like, let me findthe hole in this thing.
That can't be true.
That can't be right.
I think it's better.
And then to flip to the sales.
It's here's how we solve yourproblem.
Here's how we can work together.
Being the bridge from your pastto their future.
Jeff Kiplinger (27:41):
And that's exactly what you face when you
go into a room full ofscientists.
If you present, they will findholes.
That is their job.
That is what they've beentrained to do.
As you've said, it's that thatis their skill and we all
recognize that in each other.
I'm presenting, if i'm justtalking about myself, all I'm
(28:02):
doing is presenting an argumentfor them to post poke holes in,
and at the end of the day, youknow, they'll come out of that
seminar or whatever I've given,and they'll feel good about
themselves because they didtheir job as scientists.
They poked holes in it, but wewon't have a business
relationship.
So it doesn't do either of usany good.
I can't solve their problem andthey can't pay me for doing so.
Caroline (28:24):
So interesting.
How has your definition ofsuccess changed over time?
Jeff Kiplinger (28:31):
Well, my definition of success at a
personal level, I thinkeverybody's a little different
in this, right?
So, when people talk aboutsuccessful entrepreneurs, a lot
of times in the books that youread, in the seminars that you
can subscribe to online ofbusiness experts telling you how
to do this correctly you'll hearpeople basically saying, if
you're not motivated by money,you will not make money.
(28:56):
And so I find that for myself,I'm not motivated by money so
much as I am a highlycompetitive person and I like to
win.
If my measure of winning ismoney, that brings me to one
point.
If my measure of winning is atthe end of the day, I'm really,
really happy.
That's another thing.
(29:17):
So I was very, very happy aboutthe path that we took with
Averica.
If I'd been money motivated, Ishould, in hindsight, I should
be beating myself up because Ishould have ridden it for longer
to make us more profitable, andthen sold it for a higher sum
then I'd be you know, sitting atleast on a small yacht someplace
in the Mediterranean but thatwasn't the path I took.
(29:39):
I took the path towardssomething that was exciting to
me
Caroline (29:42):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (29:42):
working with that company in Canada that was
our was exciting to me at thetime.
And I'm still good friends withthe team that I sold the company
to.
I don't have a businessrelationship with what that
company became when theirprivate equity changed the
direction.
But that's okay.
Caroline (30:01):
How about outside of work?
What have been the things thatwere always your go-tos of
trying to have a sense offulfillment or utilizing all of
you, because sometimes asscientists, if you're good in
music, you could be good in mathand science and all of these
things.
But like, what have been yourother well-rounded hobbies to
(30:23):
use all of your skills besidesjust the science ones that were
your career?
Jeff Kiplinger (30:29):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So, you know, in terms ofhobbies, I do a lot of cycling
and hiking.
I find that physicallychallenging and it, it's about
self-discipline, like I learnedin graduate school that, you
know, what, what can I makemyself into if I put my mind to
it?
So that's got that aspect of it.
I play guitar badly and my focushas been on bluegrass music,
(30:53):
where I'm trying to get to thepoint where I can start a small
bluegrass band and begin to getgigs.
I sing pretty well, so that's myforte in bluegrass and I have a
nice high tenor voice andeverybody seems to enjoy that.
So that's been a skill that I'vebeen working to develop.
(31:14):
Really the big passion projectthat my wife and I have is we
own 10 acres of land up here inthe Hudson River Valley.
When we bought it, it was adepleted dairy farm very bad
soil structure and tons ofinvasive plants.
The only wildlife that seemed tothrive were deer who used it for
shelter.
So we have a tremendous deeroverpopulation problem up here.
(31:37):
And so, we've been working for,about eight years now to restore
it with the idea being with,with the marker of successful
restoration being biodiversity.
And so I look at insect and birdspecies counts as a way of so I
can't the ones that you onlyhear the bird song and then some
(32:00):
expert says, oh, that's ablackburnian warbler or
something like that.
I can't do that.
So, I have to see them.
So I've seen 85 just from myback porch and we've got about
30 nesting species now.
So this is pretty exciting.
It's a passion project and it'sone that we've started do more.
(32:22):
We've started to go the route oftrying to expose it to more
people up here.
Caroline (32:27):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (32:27):
There's of interest in doing this type of
of rewilding work, if you will.
Caroline (32:35):
Maybe that's another book.
Jeff Kiplinger (32:37):
It might be, there's a lot of people writing
about this and I don't feelcompetent, but I do have in mind
to produce maybe a 15 minutelittle video about the project
and see if we can use that toget even more people interested.
Caroline (32:51):
Absolutely.
That is so amazing.
So if somebody feels stuck orstagnant in their career, in
their life, what's your go-toadvice for them?
Jeff Kiplinger (33:05):
The first thing I would say is if your emotional
response is to beat yourself up,please take a step back.
Because every time that I'vedone that, I've ultimately, as
time has gone on, and as I'veaged and as I've learned more
and as I've been successful atother things, I've learned to
look back on those periods oftime and say, really the beating
(33:28):
myself up part was holding meback.
What I needed to do was to say,okay, here was something I
failed at.
Here was something that I didn'tcontrol for.
Here was something that I didn'tlearn.
And I have the opportunity to dothat now, or I have the
opportunity to do somethingdifferent.
So, you know, I can't say that Iwould take the Pfizer experience
(33:51):
and learn to become moresuccessful at corporate
politics.
Not my thing, not my interest,also not my fault that I wasn't.
Caroline (34:03):
Right.
Jeff Kiplinger (34:04):
In other things, they just didn't fit with that
part of the Pfizer organizationat that time.
Caroline (34:10):
That's a good point so how can people find you what
capacities do you work withpeople?
How can they find you thesedays?
Jeff Kiplinger (34:19):
I consult with, a few companies that are trying
to get a, a business forwardlook at how they might bring
their science to other people.
So part of that is helping themunderstand that they can build a
sales organization that they canbridge forward from their
marketing team to betterexposure and then sell based on
what they're good at.
(34:40):
and part of it is just thesatisfaction of working with the
executive leadership of a, acompany that hasn't got it all
in place yet.
There's a certain coachingaspect to that, but it's, you
know, I really try and get inand get my hands dirty and build
people's organizations to abetter level of success.
I like it to be metrics based.
(35:01):
I am after all a scientist andyou know, I'm, I like to have
goals that we're workingtowards.
In terms of exposure to thebasic ideas the book is a good
place to start, it is widelyavailable on Amazon.
it's called Expert toEntrepreneur: How to Turn Your
Hard Won Expertise into aThriving Business but if they
(35:21):
search expert to entrepreneurand Kiplinger and Amazon,
they'll find me.
The company Selling Science thatI founded with my business
partner Dave Kwajewski we stillwork with companies on their
business process so people canfind me at
jeff@selling-science.com.
Caroline (35:42):
Awesome.
And I am big on trying to helppeople be authentically
successful.
So how would you defineauthentic success for you in
this chapter
Jeff Kiplinger (35:55):
Again, I think for me, the big struggle
personally has always beengetting out of my own head and
being able to look at how I'veaffected other people along the
way.
Some of that's been good, someof that's bad.
The, what I'm looking for now inthe rest of my life is that the
sum of things ends up being, youknow, net positive.
(36:15):
So, everything that I do withmy, with my family, I have a
daughter who is getting marriedsoon.
she and her fiance.
They're just starting out.
I put a lot of energy into that.
we put a lot of energy into thefuture of the, the land up here
and the people that thattouches.
so we're trying to percolatethat outward.
(36:36):
I love to sing and I find that'sa way of building community with
other people as well.
Well, thank you so very much
Caroline (36:43):
for giving us a little bit of insight into your career
journey, into your past, intoyour amazing book and how you
help others and certainly wishyou all the best with the
wedding, the future, therewilding project, and, and all
of the things.
I appreciate you for being partof Your Next Success.
Jeff Kiplinger (37:03):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
It's always wonderful to talk toyou, Caroline and, and I think
your business is fantastic.
Having gone through these kindof struggles, I think they're
ubiquitous, right?
We, we are all gonna go throughthings like this and having some
help in that the way to reset myown head would have been
(37:24):
invaluable.
I would've, I would've lost lesstime, had fewer periods of being
unhappy and you know, andultimately I hope would've ended
up where I am now much morequickly.
Well, thank you so very muchJeff's story is a reminder that
success isn't about sticking tothe original plan.
(37:45):
It's about staying curious,learning through each challenge,
and moving forward withintention.
He didn't set out to become anentrepreneur.
He was fired from a job hethought would last a lifetime.
And yet what he built afterspeaks volumes, not just about
(38:05):
business, but about courage andclarity.
Caroline (38:09):
Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
Remember, authentic success isyours to define and includes
aligning your career to supportthe life you want.
What becomes possible when youstop trying to prove yourself
and start building somethingthat reflects who you really
are?
Caroline (00:15):
This is the Your Next Success podcast, and I'm your
host, Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
I'm a life first career coachand strategist on a mission to
normalize questioning yourcareer because I believe each of
us is made on purpose for apurpose only we can fulfill.
The longer we live out ofalignment with who we are, what
(00:36):
we do best, and why we're here,the more we miss out.
And the more the world missesout on what only we can give.
The Your Next Success Podcast iswhere we explore how to build a
career that truly fuels yourlife.
We talk about self-discovery,smart job search strategies,
(00:57):
professional growth, and you'llhear stories from people who've
navigated big career transitionsthemselves so you can see what
it's really like to make boldchanges and feel inspired to
create your own version ofauthentic success, one that is
aligned, meaningful, and trulyyours.
(01:19):
Today's guest is Dr.
Jeffrey Kiplinger, a scientistturned entrepreneur whose
journey includes corporatehighs, identity shifts, and a
deep commitment to reinvention.
Jeff began his career in drugdevelopment at Pfizer, where he
and his team work to makeanalytical technologies more
(01:40):
accessible to R&D teams.
After a decade, he was let go, apivotal moment that pushed him
to redefine success and rebuildon his own terms.
Since then, Jeff hasdemonstrated what's possible
with clarity, resilience, and awillingness to keep trying.
(02:01):
He founded and sold AvericaDiscovery, authored the Amazon
best selling book, Expert toEntrepreneur, and co-founded
Selling Science, a firm helpingscience-based businesses grow
through smart sales strategy andcommunication.
In this conversation, Jeff and Italk about what it's like to go
(02:23):
from directionless high schoolerto PhD chemist, the emotional
weight of being let go, and howit affected his identity and
relationships, how he keptmoving forward, even through
economic downturns anduncertainty.
Why building a business takesmore than expertise and what
(02:43):
scientists often overlook thesurprising lessons he learned
about communication, sales, andredefining success.
This episode is for anyone who'snavigating career disruption,
rebuilding after a setback, orfeeling called to use their
expertise in a new way.
(03:04):
Jeff, welcome to Your Next Success I'm super excited
to have you on the podcasttoday.
How everything going for you?
Jeff Kiplinger (03:11):
Oh, it's great up here.
We have 95 degrees and 110degree heat index and we're just
enjoying the heck out of it.
Caroline (03:19):
where are you located these days?
Jeff Kiplinger (03:21):
Hudson River Valley
Caroline (03:22):
I'm glad that we got to meet several months ago.
What I'm trying to do on ourpodcast is to try to help people
understand different careertransitions, folks can look at
someone in the position thatthey have and they don't
understand the rollercoaster andsometimes it's tricky to
understand how people can makebig changes and do things like
(03:42):
that.
So if you wouldn't mind, I wouldlove to try to understand your
career story.
If we dialed it way back to wayback, back in the day when you
were trying to decide what youwanted to go to college for, how
did you make that decision?
How did that happen for you?
Jeff Kiplinger (04:02):
Well Iove this subject because I think life is
full of so many different careertransitions in a way.
I don't know that my journey isany different than anybody
else's.
When I graduated high school,you know, I was looking at
myself as kind of I had nodirection, I didn't know what I
was gonna do next and as amatter of fact, I applied to one
(04:24):
college because my parents toldme that if I didn't apply to a
college, they were gonna throwme out of the house.
So applied to one.
I applied in July and went inSeptember.
I don't know that anybody couldget away
Caroline (04:36):
Wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (04:37):
with that nowadays, but I applied to
Butler University and my parentswere both alums and maybe they
pulled some strings to get myapplication considered late.
But you know, I was a veryrebellious kid at that age.
When I hit college, I caughtfire.
So that was a whole newexperience for me.
I had just been slogging throughhigh school.
(04:58):
It was dull.
It was, it was difficult.
It was very routine.
But when I got to college,everything became possible and
I, I ate it up.
I ended up with a triple majorwhen I graduated.
Caroline (05:10):
And what were your majors?
When you went, when you had yourtriple major, what were those
subject fields and then whatwere you looking at for grad
school?
Jeff Kiplinger (05:19):
Chemistry, physics, and zoology
Caroline (05:21):
Oh,
Jeff Kiplinger (05:22):
But it was all sciences.
Right.
And you know, I really lovedcollege, but I, when to graduate
school, I had no self-disciplinefor basically being responsible
for my own education.
And it took me, I would say, ayear and a half to develop even
a, you know, a good idea that Icould succeed in graduate
school.
And during that period of time,I didn't really know that I was
(05:44):
gonna make it.
Graduate school in chemistry,which was the major that I
eventually chose organicchemistry.
If you were unsuccessful, youwere awarded a master's degree
if you'd made it so far duringthe program.
And a master's degree wasconsidered you know, by PhD
candidates to be a second best.
Caroline (06:05):
Consolation prize.
basically asking you to leaveAlthough there were a couple
people that chose that upfront,but then I always thought, do,
they know that there's thisperception that we're all
looking at them like they, theydidn't choose the hard thing,
but then they just chose whatwas best for them, I guess.
Jeff Kiplinger (06:24):
Hit the nail on the head there when you used
perception, right?
Because, what we are taught ineducational institutions is what
the faculty wants you to believeabout yourself and about the
educational process.
So I was taught a lot of thingsin graduate school.
I was taught that going to workin industry was a lower status
position than going to work inacademia.
(06:45):
And that if you weren't any good
Caroline (06:47):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (06:48):
ended up in industry instead of in another
university someplace.
And I've learned that's completegarbage.
And although I'm sure there arestill people in academia that
believe that you know, and, andmore power to them if they're
successful.
But but it is very difficult toget an academic position
Caroline (07:04):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (07:05):
and it is relatively straightforward to
get an industry position, and itought to be about whether you're
happy and whether you achievewhat you wanted to do with that
position than somebody'sexternal rating of whether
you're successful or not.
So I had all of that head trash,you know, am I gonna be able to
develop the self-disciplinenecessary?
Am gonna, am I gonna make itpast that cutoff where you're
(07:28):
told to leave with a master's?
Am I gonna make it into theglorified academic world?
Or am I gonna end up, a lowstatus person in industry?
And eventually I started torealize I needed to make my own
choices.
And so as I did develop theself-discipline necessary to
succeed, as I realized I wasgonna be able to get a PhD, that
(07:49):
I was gonna be able to write upa good solid dissertation and
that I did all of that on myown.
I began to feel that I could bemore self-directing in my
career.
And I went for a couple ofpostdocs, muddled through those,
found a nice position withPfizer, started my career there,
and then ultimately same headtrash.
(08:11):
You know, Are you goingmanagement?
Management is where the successtrack is.
Are you gonna become a topscientist with a lot
publications under your belt?
Are you going to succeed in thecorporate world, which is very
political and, very muchdominated by, you know, one
upmanship and and someenvironments?
You know, all of those thingskind of set me back a little bit
(08:32):
at times too.
Ultimately, when I left Pfizerand I was fired from Pfizer.
Caroline (08:37):
Oh wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (08:38):
I came into conflict after 10 years with my
management and and they told methat, wasn't welcome anymore and
I little settlement package andI went off and moped for a
couple of years and tried to getnew things going and then we hit
recessions.
You know, my efforts to start myown businesses were you know,
(08:58):
coming up against headwinds thatI had no control over.
And again, during this wholeprocess, you just learn that,
you know, you have to set yoursail in some direction and try
and identify the headwinds andsee if there's a way past them,
and if there's not, step back.
(09:18):
Try again.
Caroline (09:20):
For someone that had, you know, kind of risen and
overcome and the triple major,and then getting the PhD and
even landing the job at Pfizerand then after 10 years to get
that"no, we don't want you."
Jeff Kiplinger (09:36):
Yeah, it hurts
Caroline (09:38):
Like, were you pissed?
Was it a hit to your ego?
Was it an identity crash?
You know, did you think tryingyour own business was a
consolation prize?
Like what, what?
Walk me through that headspaceand then how you you got out of
it.
Jeff Kiplinger (09:54):
I did try to start businesses.
My first one was a single memberconsultancy, like a lot of
people who leave an industrialposition do.
My second one was a partnershipwith a gentleman where we were
building research parks, acrossthe US.
We did two or three of those.
And then, then he actually,found a much better career path
for himself.
(10:14):
He managed, to win the Powerballas a matter of fact.
So, you know, he, he started atvery different type of business
and moved to Hawaii and wedisbanded that.
I started a laboratory for aMidwestern company that was a
technology collaboration betweenthem and another group and we
rode that for a while until wehit the 2001 recession.
(10:36):
So, you know, some that youcould look at as false starts,
but they were all learningexperiences.
And when I started a contractresearch laboratory in the
Boston area, I had to figure outhow to make that successful.
So we, we went operational withthat on January 1st, 2008.
(10:58):
you'll probably remember thatLehman Brothers went under in
October of 2008, and that wasthe you know, a long period of
recession.
I remember meeting with a bunchof executives in Boston as part
of a peer networking group thatI was involved in, and they all
thought the world was gonnacollapse and it was never gonna
come back.
(11:18):
That was early 2009.
It was a scary time, but everyyear was an up year for us
because we figured out how tomanage for cash flow instead of
try and manage the P&L and sothere was a lot of learning to
do for me and for my upper levelemployees who became executives
in the company, and then weeventually rode that track
(11:41):
record to a pretty good level ofsuccess and sold the company in
2016.
Caroline (11:46):
So you started that company just like yourself or
you and a friend, and then grewit to how many people and then
sold it?
Jeff Kiplinger (11:54):
Well, I started it myself, and at the end I was,
I had awarded some amount ofstock to a few key employees,
but I was the, know, the themajority owner.
So it was really my baby.
But we were, at the time that wesold about 20 employees a low
single million dollar figures,in, not into the tens of
(12:17):
millions yet.
I sold the company primarilybecause the, the buyer which was
a Canadian based company, had aUS expansion plan that revolved
around acquiring other assets inthe United States, and I very
much wanted to learn how toevaluate the value of other
businesses and so I worked withthat team for about eight or
(12:40):
nine months, and then theirprivate equity owners made a
change in the managementstructure and I was sort of
pushed to the side and the restof the team was let go and they
went a new direction.
So when my
Caroline (12:54):
Wow.
Jeff Kiplinger (12:54):
contract was up, I left.
left.
Now that's not an unusual
Caroline (12:58):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (12:59):
not anything that I tried to control or, or
felt bad about not being able tocontrol.
That's just the vicissitudes ofof life, right.
things go and things come andchange and you ride it out.
I think the the earliertransitions that we were talking
about through college andgraduate school and, and first
job and so forth are, were muchmore things that I let
(13:23):
emotionally impact me.
Caroline (13:26):
Tell me about that and describe that a little bit more.
'Cause there could be somepeople at that.
So what do you mean by let thatyou let them emotionally impact
you?
Jeff Kiplinger (13:37):
Well, I would say the, the worst one was
leaving Pfizer.
Right?
Because, you know, everybodyknew that I'd left under
conflict.
You know, people didn't know thedetails of the, the arrangement
that I had with the company whenI left and the and the
settlement package and so forth.
But what they did know was that,I was I was pushed out and most
(14:00):
of my friends, I was living inSoutheastern Connecticut.
Right.
Suburban or exurban or almostrural in a way and so
everybody's spread out you know,across that area.
Everybody that I knew was aPfizer person.
And so, my ex-wife and I wouldgo to dinner with these people
and, you know, there'd be someamount of uncomfortableness of
(14:20):
talking about Pfizer around meso forth.
Eventually it did affect mymarriage, and, I think that that
might have been to a largedegree in my head that I felt
inadequate in providing my shareof the marriage, and so I was
(14:41):
driven to start the company inBoston because of that.
But it took several years, as Isaid, of false starts, some of
which were, because I didn'tknow enough, and some of which
were, because you know, thingshappen.
Caroline (14:54):
Nobody
Jeff Kiplinger (14:54):
predicts that their business partner is gonna
win the Powerball.
Caroline (14:57):
Right.
Although, can you predict that Iwould win it?
Can, can we, can we win ittogether?
I think we should buy a ticketand see.
Um,
Jeff Kiplinger (15:07):
You can't win if you don't play Caroline.
Caroline (15:08):
I know that is the thing.
That is the thing that, that'salways the, you know, yeah.
You didn't get the winninglottery ticket because you
didn't, you didn't buy it atall.
So.
Again
Jeff Kiplinger (15:18):
all that head came around being let go from
Pfizer having to be aroundPfizer, people not being able to
get back into that world.
You know wondering at the end ofevery discussion what my wife
was thinking of me and so forth.
You know, eventually kind of putme in a pretty bad place.
And I see people leaving Pfizertoday because they're still
(15:38):
doing rounds of layoffs, likeevery major pharmaceutical
company, and they're bitter.
And what I wish for them is thatthey don't remain bitter for
very long.
You know, you, you put your lifeinto a company like Pfizer, you,
you think that they love youback and they don't necessarily.
Everything's a businessdecision.
(16:00):
So, you know, to, trying topersonalize it and and think
that it's about you was reallymy mistake.
Caroline (16:07):
I did the same, honestly, because it felt like I
was, I was laid off in that 2009kind of upheaval.
And It was a hit to the ego, hitto the identity.
And I was, you know, originallythinking like, seriously, like
I'm on the list.
Like, don't you know who I am?
Don't you know what I've done?
How in the world did you put meon the list?
(16:30):
And, and I felt like.
Naively before it happened tome, I admit, I thought anyone
who had ever been laid off orlet go did something wrong, and
they must be a horrible person.
And then, you know, I wasthinking, well, wait, am I the
loser?
I must be the loser.
(16:50):
Because, because that personstayed and that person stayed
and I didn't think highly ofthem and they still had jobs,
but I didn't.
So it was a huge, huge thing.
Now in hind sight, I can lookback, and I say, thank God that
happened to me.
Seriously.
I'm so glad that happened to me,because what I've been able to
(17:11):
do since that time is leaps andbounds better and more suited to
who I actually am, that if I hadstayed there, but I naively
thought.
Oh, I'm gonna join this company.
I'm gonna stay for 40 years andthis, this, this.
And that's just how it's gonnago down.
So had you thought thatoriginally as well, when you
(17:33):
kind of joined Pfizer thinking,I'm gonna stay there forever?
Jeff Kiplinger (17:38):
I not only thought that I was told that
when I interviewed for theposition at Pfizer.
I remember going out for a walkat lunch on the campus with my
soon to be boss who told me thatbasically Pfizer had a policy
that if you made it through yourfirst six months, you were an
employee for life.
So he said, understand that whenyou join this company, you are
(18:01):
joining for your entire career.
Now believing that was mymistake.
I remember when Pfizer did itsfirst layoff, and this was prior
to the mergers with WarnerLambert and then later Park
Davis.
So they weren't expanding atthat point into, into, the
behemoth that they later becamebut I remember the first layoff
(18:22):
that came down just shockedeveryone in the company, they
eliminated an entire researcharea and nobody was familiar
with that ever happening.
So, yeah, and there are stillpeople, as I say, that are going
through layoffs now that areshocked and, you know, and
clearly emotionally coping withsomething that they never
(18:43):
expected to happen.
Because the attitude is, I'veput all of my energy into this,
right?
And you know, we can saypharmaceutical companies are
evil all we want, right?
But the reality is that everysingle person that goes to work
in those companies every daywants to do something good.
And they believe that by theslow, incremental process of
(19:04):
science, that they will make acontribution to human health.
Sometimes they, you know, it'llbe a very visible contribution.
Like they'll, they'll have theirname on a patent for a brand new
drug that's a big impact onhumanity.
But more often it's just thatyou're supporting teams that are
doing that type of work.
And you feel like I've put allmy energy into this.
(19:25):
I've been at work, you know, 50hours or more a week for years
and years and years dedicated tothis company.
And they just basically say,well, you know, you're a line
item and you're gone.
Caroline (19:35):
So then you decided you wanted to be in control of
your own destiny.
Had your own companies and thenafter you sold that then what
did you do
Jeff Kiplinger (19:46):
Well, yeah, that's an, that's an interesting
question.
So I did have to ride out thelast of my contract I did some,
griping to people around meabout that, but I didn't
personalize it the way that Idid with the Pfizer thing, or,
you know, with with my strugglesto develop the discipline
necessary to get throughgraduate school.
I didn't feel like, oh, Jeff,you are inadequate, you know.
(20:08):
Oh, Jeff, you know, you failed,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
It was just, I wish it hadturned out differently and rah,
gripe about it.
So, but ultimately I didn'tlinger on the fact out it didn't
work out I had made some moneyfrom selling the company.
I felt that I could retire if Ireally wanted to.
(20:32):
I told my wife that I would takea year off after I left at the
end of my contract.
and I did so.
So I left at the end of 2018.
Taking a year off brought me tothe end of 2019.
We all know what happened at thebeginning of 2020, so, you know,
I have perfect timing withrespect to these kind of things.
But what I found during thatyear that I took off was that
(20:53):
every single thing looked like abusiness to me.
I mean, there was a clam shackthat went out of business near
us, and I was like, I could buythat and I could turn it into a
place that made high end donuts.
And, you know, they would selllike, uh, by nine 30 in the
morning and then I could takethe rest of the day off
Caroline (21:12):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (21:13):
you know, could create a plant nursery.
There's a real need for that outhere.
You know, I could start abusiness in photography.
I could you know, I don't know.
Caroline (21:21):
So this entrepreneurial spirit was a
huge driver and it didn'tnecessarily matter what form.
Jeff Kiplinger (21:28):
It, it didn't, no, I really enjoyed after the
cycle of, of starting my lastcompany and selling it
successfully, I enjoyed that, inhindsight, it was a struggle at
times.
I mean, we had to get throughthat 2008 to 2010
Caroline (21:45):
recession
Jeff Kiplinger (21:45):
period.
The really worst of it, notknowing whether we were gonna
survive or not, and that thatweighs on you psychologically
and keeps you up at night andit's a tough time.
A lot of entrepreneurs that havebeen through that and some of
them I wrote about in the book Igot quotes from people who
talked about how it affectedtheir physical health to make it
through that period of time.
Caroline (22:48):
And let's talk about that book because you have
become a bestselling author toadd to your accolades and your
book is Expert to Entrepreneur.
Jeff Kiplinger (22:58):
Well, initially that was a COVID project.
You know, here I was aftertaking a year off and then
deciding to start a companythat, with my business partner
that was going to help CROs andcontract development firms sell
better to their scientistcustomers.
Right?
So we were just launching thatwhen COVID hit.
(23:20):
And then I had nothing to do fora while.
I thought, well, you know,before I forget, this whole
process of founding, growing andselling a contract research
firm, why don't I write it alldown?
And then float it around to afew people and see whether it
reads well?
So I did just that.
I'd never published a bookbefore.
(23:42):
I wrote something thatultimately was a fairly personal
account and looked to me like itcould be valuable to other
scientists who were in a similarposition of trying to test their
entrepreneurial skills, tryingto learn through that process,
and so I wrote Expert toEntrepreneur, and I found a
publisher and the book came out2021 I guess so about two years
(24:05):
after I started writing it andbecame an Amazon bestseller and
that's been a nice little bonusto see that something you've
written is useful to people andgets good feedback from people.
Caroline (24:17):
So did you write what you wish somebody had told you?
Jeff Kiplinger (24:20):
Not so much, I wrote what I experienced and how
I learned how to do it better.
I don't know that there'sanother book out there that
deals specifically with thestruggles that scientists have
with, you know, part of it isour own head trash.
I remember learning in seventhgrade in earth science class
that you had to write downeverything as though it was
(24:43):
completely impartial.
And so, in seventh grade, Ilearned to write in passive
voice instead of an activevoice.
So instead of I did this, thestuff was added to the stuff and
this was observed, you know, andso you become so hyper objective
that fail to develop the skillsto say what you believe.
(25:05):
And this was the biggeststruggle that myself and, and my
team members faced in sellingwhat we knew we were good at to
a customer.
Caroline (25:15):
So then how did you develop those skills?
Jeff Kiplinger (25:18):
I, took a sales training class with, you know, a
team of sales experts in theMetro West Boston area and
initially I struggled, I pushedback against everything they
said.
No, I can't do it that waybecause my customers are
scientists, they're different.
They don't expect to hear thingsthat way.
They expect me to stand thereand say totally objectively this
(25:40):
is what we do, you shouldevaluate it and decide whether
you wanna buy from me and itdoesn't work very well.
I'm basically forcing my clientto make a decision that they
don't have sufficientinformation to evaluate.
Caroline (25:55):
And then how did it evolve then?
Jeff Kiplinger (25:57):
Well, eventually I learned that, you know, if we
believe that what we were doingbrought something to the table,
we should talk about that.
This is why we do what we do.
This is what we believe itbrings to you, and then
immediately drop all of thatstuff about us and start asking
questions to see whether we candetermine if we are a good fit
(26:19):
for the customer's problem.
It's a different approach fromstanding up at a scientific
conference and presenting apaper where you objectively
display all of the data and yousay, these are our conclusions,
but your conclusions may bedifferent.
Please take this work and bridgeforward from there.
That objective way of presentingis what we're all taught, but it
(26:41):
doesn't work when you're talkingto a customer where you have to
evaluate.
What are they thinking about theimpact of the problem that
they're having?
Does it impact the organizationenough for them to spend money
on fixing it?
What are their other solutionsthat they've looked at in the
past?
What are those?
And those could include anothercontract firm.
(27:03):
It could include anotherresearch path that we don't have
any impact on.
It could include buying a pieceof equipment that we don't have
in our laboratory.
In those cases, I have to bewilling to say, you know, that
might be a better solution foryou, but
Caroline (27:20):
I see.
Because as scientists we'reobjective and we're just
skeptical.
So it's always like, let me findthe hole in this thing.
That can't be true.
That can't be right.
I think it's better.
And then to flip to the sales.
It's here's how we solve yourproblem.
Here's how we can work together.
Being the bridge from your pastto their future.
Jeff Kiplinger (27:41):
And that's exactly what you face when you
go into a room full ofscientists.
If you present, they will findholes.
That is their job.
That is what they've beentrained to do.
As you've said, it's that thatis their skill and we all
recognize that in each other.
I'm presenting, if i'm justtalking about myself, all I'm
(28:02):
doing is presenting an argumentfor them to post poke holes in,
and at the end of the day, youknow, they'll come out of that
seminar or whatever I've given,and they'll feel good about
themselves because they didtheir job as scientists.
They poked holes in it, but wewon't have a business
relationship.
So it doesn't do either of usany good.
I can't solve their problem andthey can't pay me for doing so.
Caroline (28:24):
So interesting.
How has your definition ofsuccess changed over time?
Jeff Kiplinger (28:31):
Well, my definition of success at a
personal level, I thinkeverybody's a little different
in this, right?
So, when people talk aboutsuccessful entrepreneurs, a lot
of times in the books that youread, in the seminars that you
can subscribe to online ofbusiness experts telling you how
to do this correctly you'll hearpeople basically saying, if
you're not motivated by money,you will not make money.
(28:56):
And so I find that for myself,I'm not motivated by money so
much as I am a highlycompetitive person and I like to
win.
If my measure of winning ismoney, that brings me to one
point.
If my measure of winning is atthe end of the day, I'm really,
really happy.
That's another thing.
(29:17):
So I was very, very happy aboutthe path that we took with
Averica.
If I'd been money motivated, Ishould, in hindsight, I should
be beating myself up because Ishould have ridden it for longer
to make us more profitable, andthen sold it for a higher sum
then I'd be you know, sitting atleast on a small yacht someplace
in the Mediterranean but thatwasn't the path I took.
(29:39):
I took the path towardssomething that was exciting to
me
Caroline (29:42):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (29:42):
working with that company in Canada that was
our was exciting to me at thetime.
And I'm still good friends withthe team that I sold the company
to.
I don't have a businessrelationship with what that
company became when theirprivate equity changed the
direction.
But that's okay.
Caroline (30:01):
How about outside of work?
What have been the things thatwere always your go-tos of
trying to have a sense offulfillment or utilizing all of
you, because sometimes asscientists, if you're good in
music, you could be good in mathand science and all of these
things.
But like, what have been yourother well-rounded hobbies to
(30:23):
use all of your skills besidesjust the science ones that were
your career?
Jeff Kiplinger (30:29):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So, you know, in terms ofhobbies, I do a lot of cycling
and hiking.
I find that physicallychallenging and it, it's about
self-discipline, like I learnedin graduate school that, you
know, what, what can I makemyself into if I put my mind to
it?
So that's got that aspect of it.
I play guitar badly and my focushas been on bluegrass music,
(30:53):
where I'm trying to get to thepoint where I can start a small
bluegrass band and begin to getgigs.
I sing pretty well, so that's myforte in bluegrass and I have a
nice high tenor voice andeverybody seems to enjoy that.
So that's been a skill that I'vebeen working to develop.
(31:14):
Really the big passion projectthat my wife and I have is we
own 10 acres of land up here inthe Hudson River Valley.
When we bought it, it was adepleted dairy farm very bad
soil structure and tons ofinvasive plants.
The only wildlife that seemed tothrive were deer who used it for
shelter.
So we have a tremendous deeroverpopulation problem up here.
(31:37):
And so, we've been working for,about eight years now to restore
it with the idea being with,with the marker of successful
restoration being biodiversity.
And so I look at insect and birdspecies counts as a way of so I
can't the ones that you onlyhear the bird song and then some
(32:00):
expert says, oh, that's ablackburnian warbler or
something like that.
I can't do that.
So, I have to see them.
So I've seen 85 just from myback porch and we've got about
30 nesting species now.
So this is pretty exciting.
It's a passion project and it'sone that we've started do more.
(32:22):
We've started to go the route oftrying to expose it to more
people up here.
Caroline (32:27):
Yeah.
Jeff Kiplinger (32:27):
There's of interest in doing this type of
of rewilding work, if you will.
Caroline (32:35):
Maybe that's another book.
Jeff Kiplinger (32:37):
It might be, there's a lot of people writing
about this and I don't feelcompetent, but I do have in mind
to produce maybe a 15 minutelittle video about the project
and see if we can use that toget even more people interested.
Caroline (32:51):
Absolutely.
That is so amazing.
So if somebody feels stuck orstagnant in their career, in
their life, what's your go-toadvice for them?
Jeff Kiplinger (33:05):
The first thing I would say is if your emotional
response is to beat yourself up,please take a step back.
Because every time that I'vedone that, I've ultimately, as
time has gone on, and as I'veaged and as I've learned more
and as I've been successful atother things, I've learned to
look back on those periods oftime and say, really the beating
(33:28):
myself up part was holding meback.
What I needed to do was to say,okay, here was something I
failed at.
Here was something that I didn'tcontrol for.
Here was something that I didn'tlearn.
And I have the opportunity to dothat now, or I have the
opportunity to do somethingdifferent.
So, you know, I can't say that Iwould take the Pfizer experience
(33:51):
and learn to become moresuccessful at corporate
politics.
Not my thing, not my interest,also not my fault that I wasn't.
Caroline (34:03):
Right.
Jeff Kiplinger (34:04):
In other things, they just didn't fit with that
part of the Pfizer organizationat that time.
Caroline (34:10):
That's a good point so how can people find you what
capacities do you work withpeople?
How can they find you thesedays?
Jeff Kiplinger (34:19):
I consult with, a few companies that are trying
to get a, a business forwardlook at how they might bring
their science to other people.
So part of that is helping themunderstand that they can build a
sales organization that they canbridge forward from their
marketing team to betterexposure and then sell based on
what they're good at.
(34:40):
and part of it is just thesatisfaction of working with the
executive leadership of a, acompany that hasn't got it all
in place yet.
There's a certain coachingaspect to that, but it's, you
know, I really try and get inand get my hands dirty and build
people's organizations to abetter level of success.
I like it to be metrics based.
(35:01):
I am after all a scientist andyou know, I'm, I like to have
goals that we're workingtowards.
In terms of exposure to thebasic ideas the book is a good
place to start, it is widelyavailable on Amazon.
it's called Expert toEntrepreneur: How to Turn Your
Hard Won Expertise into aThriving Business but if they
(35:21):
search expert to entrepreneurand Kiplinger and Amazon,
they'll find me.
The company Selling Science thatI founded with my business
partner Dave Kwajewski we stillwork with companies on their
business process so people canfind me at
jeff@selling-science.com.
Caroline (35:42):
Awesome.
And I am big on trying to helppeople be authentically
successful.
So how would you defineauthentic success for you in
this chapter
Jeff Kiplinger (35:55):
Again, I think for me, the big struggle
personally has always beengetting out of my own head and
being able to look at how I'veaffected other people along the
way.
Some of that's been good, someof that's bad.
The, what I'm looking for now inthe rest of my life is that the
sum of things ends up being, youknow, net positive.
(36:15):
So, everything that I do withmy, with my family, I have a
daughter who is getting marriedsoon.
she and her fiance.
They're just starting out.
I put a lot of energy into that.
we put a lot of energy into thefuture of the, the land up here
and the people that thattouches.
so we're trying to percolatethat outward.
(36:36):
I love to sing and I find that'sa way of building community with
other people as well.
Well, thank you so very much
Caroline (36:43):
for giving us a little bit of insight into your career
journey, into your past, intoyour amazing book and how you
help others and certainly wishyou all the best with the
wedding, the future, therewilding project, and, and all
of the things.
I appreciate you for being partof Your Next Success.
Jeff Kiplinger (37:03):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
It's always wonderful to talk toyou, Caroline and, and I think
your business is fantastic.
Having gone through these kindof struggles, I think they're
ubiquitous, right?
We, we are all gonna go throughthings like this and having some
help in that the way to reset myown head would have been
(37:24):
invaluable.
I would've, I would've lost lesstime, had fewer periods of being
unhappy and you know, andultimately I hope would've ended
up where I am now much morequickly.
Well, thank you so very muchJeff's story is a reminder that
success isn't about sticking tothe original plan.
(37:45):
It's about staying curious,learning through each challenge,
and moving forward withintention.
He didn't set out to become anentrepreneur.
He was fired from a job hethought would last a lifetime.
And yet what he built afterspeaks volumes, not just about
(38:05):
business, but about courage andclarity.
Caroline (38:09):
Thanks for listening to Your Next Success with Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
Remember, authentic success isyours to define and includes
aligning your career to supportthe life you want.
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