October 21, 2025 • 38 mins
What if the next level of your success isn’t about climbing higher — but thinking better?
John Knowlton has lived that truth. From pastor to co-founder of a wealth-management firm managing over $1 billion in assets, he’s learned that growth without alignment eventually costs too much. After selling his firm and taking a family-first sabbatical, John now helps Christian CEOs lead with purpose through C12 and his upcoming book, Thinking for Success.
In this conversation, you’ll hear:
- The two-week time study that exposed what was really driving, and draining, his growth
- How hiring to your constraint created freedom instead of burnout
- Why a family-first sabbatical became the turning point for clarity and peace
- How story-driven mental models help leaders and teams think better every day
Get your free chapter of Thinking for Success → thinkingforsuccess.com
Subscribe to Your Next Success so you never miss an episode.
Watch full video episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@NextSuccessMethod/
Learn more about Next Success www.nextsuccesscareers.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caroline (00:00):
What if the way you think is the biggest factor
(00:04):
holding you back or propellingyou forward?
John Knowlton has lived thattruth across ministry, business,
and family, and now he's on amission to help leaders think
better every day.
This episode is for leaders whofeel outwardly successful, but
(00:25):
inwardly unfulfilledprofessionals in transition,
wondering what's next, andanyone who wants practical tools
to improve their thinking andleadership.
This is the Your Next Successpodcast, and I'm your host, Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
I'm a life first career coachand strategist on a mission to
(00:48):
normalize questioning yourcareer because I believe each of
us is made on purpose for apurpose only we can fulfill.
The longer we live out ofalignment with who we are, what
we do best, and why we're here,the more we miss out.
And the more the world missesout On what only we can give the
(01:10):
Your Next Success Podcast iswhere we explore how to build a
career that truly fuels yourlife.
We talk about self-discovery,smart job, search strategies,
professional growth, and you'llhear stories from people who've
navigated big career transitionsthemselves so you can see what
it's really like to make boldchanges and feel inspired to
(01:34):
create your own version ofauthentic success, one that is
aligned, meaningful, and trulyyours.
John Knowlton started out as apastor and chaplain before
moving into wealth managementwhere he co-founded and scaled a
firm to more than a billiondollars in client assets.
(01:56):
After selling his interest in2020, he took a family first
sabbatical and now serves as a C12 chair guiding Christian CEOs
to build businesses for agreater purpose.
He's also the author of Thinkingfor Success coming out in 2026,
which distills 52 story-drivenmental models to help people
(02:18):
think and lead better.
In today's conversation, Johnshares his journey through
ministry business and familylife, and what he's learned
about aligning work withpurpose.
We talk about turning points: growth, sabbatical, and why all (02:31):
undefined
outcomes are rooted in the waywe think.
In this episode, you'll hear howJohn went from seminary and
chaplaincy into building abillion dollar wealth firm.
What a two week time studytaught him about growth and
(02:51):
focus, why he sold his businessand took a sabbatical with his
family.
How his work with C 12 and hisbook Thinking for Success help
leaders upgrade their thinking.
Welcome John to Your NextSuccess.
I am thrilled to have youjoining us today.
John Knowlton (03:12):
Caroline, it's an honor and a pleasure, and I hope
to be a real blessing to theaudience.
Caroline (03:16):
Oh, I know that you will.
Well, as you know, I am tryingto help normalize career
transitions and learn more aboutpeople's stories, and especially
those who have, you know, hadsome twists and turns and are
brave enough to share that.
So, I know we are going to getto the amazing work that you do
today, which is helping businessleaders.
You have a phenomenal bookgetting ready to launch that I
(03:37):
know is gonna be a realtremendous benefit.
So we're gonna get to that.
But let's start at thebeginning.
in your childhood, what kind ofthings did you love to do?
Or were there any interests orthoughts that you had about what
you might wanna do for yourcareer later on?
John Knowlton (03:57):
Yeah, good question.
In terms of taking me back acouple of years.
I think I at one point thought Iwould be an architect, but it
turns out I'm not good atdrawing or thinking about space.
And so that wasn't it.
And, I'm five foot six, sobasketball career was out of the
cards.
So, you know, you think things.
Caroline (04:17):
Better suited for a fan.
John Knowlton (04:19):
Yep, I'm an excellent fan.
Yes, I can cheer like with thebest of them.
Caroline (04:23):
What kind of, activities did you enjoy doing?
Or what things were you doingthat you lost all concept of
time?
John Knowlton (04:30):
Yeah, I was a Boy Scout and, earned Eagle Scout
badge as well as my, my brotherdid as well, and, we really
liked.
I really liked being outdoors.
I don't know that he l did, but,so I'll let, I'll let you
interview him next time, but I,I really liked being outdoors
and, have continued to be anoutdoor athlete all my life.
Bicycling and hiking, running,gotten into mountaineering
(04:52):
lately, so those are
Caroline (04:53):
Very cool.
John Knowlton (04:55):
long days, not very fast.
So basketball is short, quick atbursts of speed.
I'm the tortoise who willeventually get to the top of the
mountain.
Caroline (05:05):
But that's interesting though that even with the
fascination and desire andsticking with scouts, that also
from a very young age washelping you develop your
leadership and giving youopportunities to guide and lead
others.
Really neat.
John Knowlton (05:21):
Yeah, our scoutmaster had a philosophy
that it wasn't his job to leadthe troop, it was the boy's job.
And, he wrote a letter that myparents recently found.
He's passed away, but this is,gosh, from 1984 maybe.
And, and he'd written thisletter to the Eagle Scout
(05:43):
Committee that was going toassess me for the rank.
In any case he told the story ofme as a young teenager coming to
him to complain about the poorquality of the scout meetings
and demanding to know when hewas going to fix it.
And his answer was never, it'snot my job to fix your meeting,
(06:03):
it's your job.
And so in what, ninth grade orsomething like that.
He was making the point that if.
I saw something that needed tobe changed.
Well, the responsibility waswith me.
Caroline (06:17):
Oh wow.
And that's so interesting thoughalso because we're gonna get to
this, but part of the beauty ofyour book Thinking for Success
is it can be there to helppeople have guides that can be
used in staff meetings and helpleaders have new ways to think
of stuff.
So even then there was this seedand this inkling and this
(06:42):
desire, innate desire that youwere having to want to make
those better, so
John Knowlton (06:48):
Yeah, well at that time I could identify what
was wrong, but, identifyingproblems is the lowest form of
thinking.
Caroline (06:56):
That's right.
John Knowlton (06:57):
Yeah, so I had to learn to identify solutions as
well.
That's where the, that's wherethe success comes in.
Caroline (07:03):
Absolutely.
Okay, so you obtained this EagleScout rank, which is a
tremendous, amount of work.
My brother got, to his EagleScout.
My kids decided to, pursue otheractivities,
John Knowlton (07:16):
Sure.
Caroline (07:16):
other talents.
When you went to high school,were there any particular types
of classes or activities, thatyou particularly enjoyed then?
John Knowlton (07:27):
Both in high school and in college, I took a
stochastic approach.
And so that's a big word thatmeans random.
And so as a, I think a, yes, asenior, my fall semester I went
from advanced physics to smallengine repair and back then,
there were two tracks and I wason the going to college track,
(07:49):
and so the vocational ed classeswere not available to me.
My dad had to sign a specialform, giving permission for me
to take an engine repair class.
Caroline (08:00):
Interesting.
John Knowlton (08:01):
and then I booked out a high school a semester
early and started college andwas just taking any classes that
sounded interesting.
I took physics, I took.
Ah, psychology.
I took political science.
I took earth science, and afterfive years my dad says, well,
that's it.
I'm not paying tuition anymore.
(08:21):
And, see, we had this implicitagreement that I would take
classes forever and he would payfor them forever, but he was not
on board with my implicit plan.
And so, so I went, to.
To the counselors or whomever atthe registrar's office and said,
I've been here five years,surely I've got a degree, right?
(08:43):
And, so they, they eventuallylet me escape.
Caroline (08:48):
And your degree was geology?
John Knowlton (08:50):
Let me see.
I had a, a Bachelor of sciencewith a major in earth science
Caroline (08:56):
Okay.
John Knowlton (08:56):
and a minor in, political science and religion.
Caroline (09:02):
Aha.
Aha.
And now that kind of goes tothis, this next enterprise.
'cause then you continued onwith school, right?
So what, what after yougraduated college
John Knowlton (09:13):
Yeah.
Then I went to,
Caroline (09:15):
me the, then what
John Knowlton (09:16):
then I went to seminary.
Seminary is a professionaltraining school for pastors
where you earn a practicaldegree, not an academic degree
called a master of divinity.
So there are theological oracademic degrees called Masters
of Theological Studies or orsomething else that might lead
to a PhD.
Masters of Divinity aretypically the last degree that
(09:38):
working pastors earn.
I didn't quite complete thatcourse of study, but I did end
up working as a pastor invarious settings.
I was a jail chaplain.
I worked in an inner citychurch.
I worked in very rural, veryrural churches on the banks of
the Ohio River and, no runningwater in the church building,
(09:59):
outhouse.
Yeah.
So very diverse experiences andthen still to this day, I'm, on
staff at a, now a pretty goodsized inner city church in
Kalamazoo, Michigan.
I'm the white business guypastor amongst mostly, African
American full Gospel church.
Caroline (10:16):
Hmm.
That's, it's gotta be a verybeautiful experience though.
Just very amazing
John Knowlton (10:23):
It's cool.
We've made a lot of friends thatwe wouldn't have made otherwise,
and, my wife and I have beenthere for 22 years, so we're
Pretty committed.
That's our place.
Caroline (10:32):
So as you, uh, moved on from the seminary studies,
and then what'd you choose to dofor work at that time?
What was going on in life?
What was going on in work?
John Knowlton (10:40):
Sure.
So I was married to a, my firstwife who was convinced that
ministry was ruining ourmarriage.
Caroline (10:47):
Hmm
John Knowlton (10:48):
Okay, I am committed to you before I
committed to the church.
So stepped away from full-timeministry and Caroline, I was
applying for every kind of jobthat should have been opened.
This is in, in my twenties, andI could get interviews, but I
couldn't get a job.
I'm back to painting apartmentbuildings to buy groceries and,
(11:09):
goodness sakes, nothing wasopening up for me.
And so my mom sent me arecruiting VHS videotape, you
know, you'd clunk it into themachine and watch, gotta rewind
it, be kind, and rewind.
Caroline (11:21):
Be kind, rewind.
John Knowlton (11:22):
That's it.
Any case, it was a recruitingvideotape from Edward Jones.
And, I watched the video.
I said, ah.
I like investing and I'll applyand they rejected me.
But the process of theirapplication experience got me
interested in pursuing thefield.
So I looked around and figuredout who had a good training
(11:45):
program in my area, and I wentto a career fair with one resume
because I knew which company Iwanted to hire me, and I gave it
to the recruiter and they hiredme and they didn't tell me it
was supposed to take a long timeto pass all these tests.
And I did it in the fastest timeanybody had heard of, just
because I didn't know that itwas supposed to take a long
(12:05):
time.
Caroline (12:05):
that it was a expectation to be otherwise.
Yeah.
John Knowlton (12:08):
I have to read 600 pages and take a test on it.
Great.
Sign me up next week.
And so I did that.
Six months later, my first wifeleft me.
So apparently my job wasn't thewhole issue.
I'm sure it was much more aboutmy performance as a husband.
And so I started a career inwealth management and As I
(12:28):
stumbled backwards into it, itturned out to be something I was
okay at.
Caroline (12:32):
Now, do you think that part of that first wife's,
influence and saying ministrywas ruining your marriage, was
that partially why you didn'tfinish that degree?
John Knowlton (12:42):
No, it wasn't.
Caroline (12:44):
Okay.
All right.
Not related, and so then.
At the time that seems like, Awman, I had this marriage I
committed to forever and nowwhat?
But then did you pour your lifeinto that wealth management
financial career?
John Knowlton (13:00):
I was pretty dedicated.
Needing money, you know, to liveand all that.
So that was, I didn't have acomputer on my desk.
We, this was at the end of thenineties before the internet was
widely available.
In fact, when I had myinterview, I sent a thank you
email to the vice president whohired me, and he told me later
(13:22):
that was the first externalemail he'd ever received.
Caroline (13:26):
Oh wow.
Interesting.
Well, good for you for being upwith technology.
John Knowlton (13:29):
Well, they had an in internal email system, but no
one was using it outside of, youknow, from company to company at
the time.
Caroline (13:40):
Oh, very interesting.
John Knowlton (13:40):
And so it was literally names and phone
numbers onto pieces of paper andpick up the phone and dial it.
Wait, interrupt their dinner.
Hey, I'm John from this company,can we talk about financial
planning?
You know, that kind of thing.
Caroline (13:56):
Did you have a certain number of calls you had to do
each day?
John Knowlton (13:58):
Some firms were like 300 dials a day.
You know, you may have heardthese kind of stories.
That is really, really brutal.
I tried to hone my effectivenessso that I could reduce my
volume.
Caroline (14:10):
Yes.
Yeah, when I did, when I firstdid recruiting, for the chemical
industry, it had grown from oneof those, at that time it was a
hundred call, a hundred dials aday type of thing.
And, and people, sure enough,they would check off these
little sheets of what kind ofcall they had and this and that,
and I'm like, oh my gosh.
I was like, I'm gonna doquality, not quantity.
So I'm gonna do, I'm gonna findhow to do warm stuff.
(14:31):
I'm gonna hit the metric of theresults, but let me figure out
how I'm gonna get there.
I don't feel the need to, todial a hundred nonsense calls if
I could have two good ones.
So,
John Knowlton (14:43):
Yep.
That's what I tried to do.
Yeah.
Caroline (14:45):
Yeah.
Well, that's cool.
That's okay.
So then what happened?
So how did you go from that totransitioning out of it?
John Knowlton (14:54):
Yeah.
Well, so that was a 24 yearcareer or something like that.
My current wife and permanentwife, Julie, was a prospect.
So she was looking for financialadvice.
Caroline (15:07):
So it had not been for that.
Career choice that you made, youwould not have met this
beautiful blessing
John Knowlton (15:15):
there you go.
Caroline (15:16):
of your wife.
John Knowlton (15:17):
That's right.
Yep.
Caroline (15:18):
Yeah.
And, and you guys went on tohave a, a few children then
decided to add a couple
John Knowlton (15:24):
Yeah.
Caroline (15:25):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (15:26):
Yeah.
So, so, I have a stepdaughterJulie brought to our marriage.
We have a son together and thenwe, fostered siblings and then
ended up adopting this them, sofour kids in total.
And Caroline, if you can thinkof another way to get kids, I
don't want to know what it isbecause we are at the cusp of
the nest being empty.
(15:46):
So my last youngest is a seniorin high school.
Caroline (15:50):
Oh, that's exciting.
Well, I wish that you can stillmake great influences on
children's lives, but maybe notyour children.
John Knowlton (15:57):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, Caroline, I'll, I'llcontinue this story.
So I, I was an individualcontributor in a big company and
after, well, about a year and ahalf, this is typical in sales
organizations.
I sort of met the metrics andtherefore was promoted to
manager.
Caroline (16:17):
As an individual contributor, so therefore we're
gonna move you out of thatindividual contributor and let's
see how good your people skillsare yet with your training
before and your desire andworking with them through people
and helping.
Yeah.
So how'd that go?
John Knowlton (16:31):
Yeah, so that was, that was okay.
I think I was a fair manager inmy twenties.
I wouldn't say a great one.
And, in case we decided, Julieand I had met and we had decided
I was gonna go step outta thatmanagement role and back into
building my own practice, if youwill, of having my own clients.
And she still had a corporatejob, so it was okay.
(16:52):
She had nice benefits and I wasgonna go from a salary back to
eat what you kill.
And, six months after we gotmarried was 9/11.
Caroline (17:03):
Huh.
John Knowlton (17:03):
And she tells me, you know what?
I think God wants me to stepoutta my corporate job and go
work part-time as the churchoffice administrator.
And I'm like, huh.
So we're going from.
Caroline (17:16):
Great timing.
Okay, but God, but, God wantsher to do it.
So then you kind of likesometimes when those God wants
you to do something, I don'tknow about you, but I kind of
learned to be like, okay.
All right.
That's what I'm doing.
I guess if you're give, puttingit on my heart, you're gonna
gimme a way to make it happen.
But what were your thoughts?
John Knowlton (17:36):
Here was my response.
Okay, let me pray about that.
And on a Monday, I felt that Godwas telling me to say yes to
Julie.
And so I said.
I love you and I trust you God,but I wanna make sure I'm
hearing you right.
So I'm gonna ask again tomorrow.
(17:56):
So on Tuesday I got the sameanswer and so I at breakfast to,
I said to Julie, I have no ideahow this is gonna work, but.
Put in your notice.
20 minutes later, Caroline, Igot to work and there was a
voicemail from a woman who wasnear the end of her career
looking for a succession plan.
(18:17):
She brought me into herpractice, paid me a salary,
introduced me to all herclients, and sold me her
business.
Caroline (18:24):
Wow.
Wow.
John Knowlton (18:27):
I learned.
Caroline (18:27):
That was already lined up like that.
Yeah.
John Knowlton (18:30):
I, I, and I learned through that process a
trust.
My wife, when she tells me sheheard from God.
Second is I learned you can getclients one at a time by dialing
the phone.
Whole lot and wearing yourfinger out, or you could buy'em
in chunks.
And I liked buying'em in chunks.
And so from 2005 to say 2015, Icontinued to learn about doing
(18:58):
acquisitions, mergers andacquisitions, learning about how
to approach elderly.
I say elderly, I'm getting closeto the age, but you know,
advisors with gray hair, I wouldfind them.
Caroline (19:08):
Whose gonna approach you?
John Knowlton (19:10):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at that.
Any case, the, finding, refiningmy process.
How do I approach'em, how do I,how do I learn to communicate
that I'm gonna deliver goodquality care and service to
their clients?
All, all the things.
And we did a few little dealsand I, I built a practice.
So by 2014 or so, I had one goodpartner and, a handful of staff.
(19:36):
And we were managing about$125million of client assets.
And we set a goal that year in2014 to be, at a billion
dollars, so to 8X our company.
Caroline (19:48):
Hmm.
John Knowlton (19:48):
And we kinda looked at each other and neither
my partner or I knew how tomanage a business eight times
larger and said, well, maybe weshould get some skill up a
little bit here.
And so I drew the short strawand I was gonna go get a, a
Master's in Businessadministration and right before
I picked the program, I, youknow, signed up and everything,
(20:08):
but right before it started,three different people who don't
know each other in threedifferent states told me not to
do it.
Caroline (20:15):
Oh.
John Knowlton (20:16):
And one of them said, John, you can read all
those books yourself.
What you need is a group ofother business people to walk
life together with you.
So, okay.
All right.
That's interesting.
We set the goal, I found what'scalled a pure advisory group, an
(20:36):
hour away.
I would drive once a month and,any case, I'm, I'm kind of
working this process and we hadidentified mergers and
acquisition as our biggestopportunity to hit this billion
dollar goal.
And after a year, we'd basicallynot made any progress.
Caroline (20:52):
Hmm.
John Knowlton (20:53):
And so I did something brutal.
I did a two week time study onmyself.
So in 15 minute increments, Iassessed, what do I do?
At work all day long.
So at the end of two weeks, Ihad over 400 data points before
Ai.
And so I had to go you know,kind of put these things into
(21:16):
buckets.
And I, I realized there werekind of four big buckets of how
I was spending my time.
One was client service.
One was running the business.
One was, let's say it wasinvestment management and the
one getting the least amount oftime, of course, was our biggest
opportunity (21:32):
mergers and acquisitions.
And so we used that data to maketwo key changes.
And the first was to hireanother financial advisor to
service some of my clientresponsibilities to give me more
time,
Caroline (21:45):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (21:45):
Free up time.
And then we hired somebody whoseonly job was to work on mergers
and acquisitions.
We didn't even teach her how tohelp clients.
Because we
Caroline (21:54):
wow.
John Knowlton (21:54):
her getting sucked into operational stuff.
She had to work exclusively onnew business through
acquisition.
So We got this person now I needto keep her busy.
And so it turbocharged myeffort.
So we built an email list.
I had over 4,000 advisors that Iwas continuously drip marketing
to and writing campaigns andmaking outbound phone calls and
(22:17):
all this kind of stuff.
And in 2018 we made a keymerger.
So we had developed capabilitieson the M&A side, and this other
firm it's a little bigger thanus, but similar sized, had
excellent investment managementand client service processes
built out but didn't, hadn'tdone M&A.
(22:40):
And so when we merged, it was acashless transaction.
We just put the two firmstogether, but now we've got this
great platform of investmentmanagement excellence, and
client service excellence that Icould start to drop all kinds of
deals into.
And so from 2014 when we were at$125 million to 2020, when I
(23:02):
exited, we were at a billion anda quarter.
And just in case the money, themath is fuzzy.
That's a 10X in five years.
Caroline (23:15):
Imagine what your life would be like if your career
aligned with who you are, whatyou do best, and actually fueled
the life you want.
At Next Success, we support allages and stages through career
transitions from studentsexploring majors or careers to
job seekers actively searchingor re-imagining their next move
(23:37):
to professionals committed toself-awareness and leadership
growth.
Stay connected and explorewhat's possible at
nextsuccesscareers.com andfollow@nextsuccessmethod on
LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram,and Facebook.
Did you plan your 2020 exitbefore knowing about COVID?
John Knowlton (24:01):
Well, I lived through COVID.
I was working through COVID, soit was at the end of that year.
Yeah.
Caroline (24:06):
Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
'cause I've talked to somepeople and it's like.
That's when they were gonnaleave their big corporate job
and start their business.
And like I talked, one,beautiful lady whose podcast was
getting ready to be released,she had set a date of March
13th, 2020 was the day she wasgonna leave her job right now.
March 13th was the day it allwent down with like the two
(24:28):
weeks to slow to spread,
John Knowlton (24:29):
Right.
Caroline (24:29):
So.
Her husband.
Luckily that day was like, areyou sure you wanna pick today?
Our governor just said
John Knowlton (24:35):
Yes.
Caroline (24:36):
She, she delayed it for a while, but
John Knowlton (24:38):
Yeah.
Caroline (24:38):
It's just kind of interesting how it all works.
Okay.
So you leave that business
John Knowlton (24:45):
if you don't mind, I'll just say besides
hitting the, the business goalof being over a billion dollars.
We had two adopted kids, youremember.
Adopted kids often come with atrauma background because if
you're eligible to be adopted,that means stuff went wrong.
Your parents couldn't care foryou, or there was abuse or
(25:06):
neglect or all of the above,whatever.
And so, one of our adopted kidshad such a trauma history that
she needed to live in aresidential treatment for four
years.
And, so we live in Michigan.
She was in treatment in Texas.
And so once a month.
Julie or I would fly to Houston,rent a car, drive to the other
(25:29):
town an hour or so away, spend afew hours with a kid and repeat
the process.
It would be, 36 hours of travelfor, a four hour visit.
Something like that.
Yeah.
But, that chow was ready to comehome and reenter family life
and, and Julie raised her handand said, Hey, you know, I'm
gonna need some help here.
(25:50):
I cannot bear this alone.
And so, so we had thatcombination of need in the
family and we'd hit the businessgoal and so that, that converged
at the end of 2020.
Caroline (26:01):
to make that happen.
John Knowlton (26:03):
Yeah.
Caroline (26:03):
Then you were able to be at home and help with that
transition for that beautifulchild and, and then what?
John Knowlton (26:11):
Huh.
Well, Julie said you're notworking.
In 2021, you're taking a yearlong sabbatical.
Caroline (26:18):
Oh.
John Knowlton (26:18):
And so I did, I built an addition on the house
and we bought a, motor home anddid an epic RV trip across the
country.
And,
Caroline (26:27):
So how many kids went on that trip?
John Knowlton (26:30):
Well, two were with us for the whole month.
The younger two, one was livingon the West coast, and so we met
her when we got there, and onewas a young adult and flew out
to spend one week with us andthen we had a, a fiance as well.
So there was a total of whatfour..., seven people, but not
(26:53):
all.
You know, we had various,arrangements and,
Caroline (26:55):
How did that work with, because, motor homes are
larger than regular vehicles,but I don't know about you.
Getting family together to be ina very tiny space for an
extended period of time, is ablessing and an opportunity to
learn a little more patience.
(27:16):
But how, how was that, how, howthat work?
I've, I've often thought it'd begreat to do one of those kinds
of trips, but then a two hourroad trip anywhere has me
rethink that plan.
John Knowlton (27:29):
Yeah, I, so it has not been repeated.
Let, maybe that's enough.
My wife and I love it.
And so we camp together,
Caroline (27:38):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (27:39):
just the two of us.
Caroline (27:42):
Well that's, that's interesting.
What are some of the greatestmemories or experiences from
that time that you got to havetogether?
John Knowlton (27:52):
We discovered the Pacific Northwest and, the
Cascade Range, Mount Rainier,Mount Hood.
And, so since then I've climbeda, a Pacific Northwest Mountain
every year since then.
Caroline (28:04):
Wow.
Wow.
That's so cool.
All right, so you come back fromthis epic road trip and take us
up on that part of the story.
John Knowlton (28:16):
and I stumbled again, right?
I keep stumbling on things.
If you know the story ofGenesis, Jacob was wandering
around one place and he, hehappened upon a place where he
fell asleep and had thisincredible dream of angels
ascending and descending thisladder, and he wakes up and he
said.
(28:38):
Wow.
This is none other than the gateof heaven.
So he just stumbled upon thisgate of heaven, right?
So I stumbled upon somethingcalled C 12.
C 12 is peer advisory, like Ihad been part of as a business
leader, but it's specificallyfor Christian CEOs and business
owners.
And so I now lead a couple ofgroups of people running
(29:00):
businesses.
And, we have a, a monthly daylong business retreat, and then
I coach them in between as well.
And so it's this perfect Venndiagram of business and ministry
for me.
And along the way I've, I'vereally become clear on my
purpose, which has, is to helppeople think better every day.
Caroline (29:19):
Hmm, and, and so you stumbled upon C 12 and it's an
organization that hired you, oryou volunteered, or how does
that work?
John Knowlton (29:26):
It's technically a franchise, and so, I'm a 10
99.
Caroline (29:32):
Got you.
John Knowlton (29:33):
Yeah, it's a for-profit entity.
The members pay real, real, duesto be a part of it.
Caroline (29:39):
That's so cool.
But, but yet it was using a lotof your foundational building
blocks that you had acquiredthrough all this, and an outlet
in a different way.
And yes, combining that ministryand vocation together.
That's, that's so cool.
And so how did this, becoming anauthor come about?
John Knowlton (29:57):
Ah, yeah.
Well, I didn't set out to writethis book Thinking for Success,
rather just as I was leadingpeople, I realized that people
keep making the same mistakes,whether it's at their work or
how they're interacting withclients or complaining about
their spouses, whatever, right?
People keep hitting their headagainst the same wall, and I
(30:18):
would try telling them what todo, which didn't empower them.
I would try giving a principle,but principles tend to be
abstract and hard to apply.
And then I stumbled upon theidea of telling stories.
So I would tell a story in astaff meeting, would talk about
it a little bit and give it anice title or descriptive
(30:40):
handle.
And then whenever that lessonneeded to be refreshed, we could
just refer to remember IndianaJones, or remember Jonathan
Munkhouse on HMS Endeavor,whatever the case might be.
And I said, you know, I'm gonnastart forgetting the stories so
I would write them down.
And then over some period ofyears I realized I had 40
(31:02):
stories written down, and thenlightning fast brain.
Hey, if you have 52 of these,you'd have one a week for a
year's worth of staff meetings.
So I kept writing them until Ihad 70 stories or so, hired an
editing team to get it down tothe best 52.
Caroline (31:18):
Hmm.
And so that's Thinking forSuccess, and when will that be a
available?
Actually, I think you have a wayto get people a head start on
knowing what that's all aboutnow.
John Knowlton (31:27):
Yeah.
So, I'm happy to provide a freechapter, so if you just go to
thinkingforsuccess.com, thefirst thing you'll see is a
popup saying, Hey, you want afree chapter from John's book?
Sure, go ahead and get that.
And then it'll also include alink to a 90-second video where
I explain how to use it in astaff meeting.
So this is really designed forfor leaders who want to empower
(31:49):
their staff to think better, orfor individual contributors to
upgrade their own thinking.
Caroline (31:55):
And when will the rest of the book be out for the
masses to be able to buy?
John Knowlton (31:59):
Yeah, so, officially it's January 6th,
2026, but I understand thatpre-orders do matter.
And so, there's a link in thatsame spot to, to find it at
anywhere you like to buy books.
Caroline (32:12):
What's your advice for people who are not sure if what
they're doing is what they wantto continue doing and they're
starting to have those questionsand what if somebody comes to
you with that kind of a desireor struggle?
What?
What do you say?
John Knowlton (32:31):
Yeah.
Well, I don't wanna contradictyour advice, Caroline, so I know
you have your own own approach,but I'll share mine and
Caroline (32:40):
Yeah, because there's different people will only hear
certain messages from differentvoices.
John Knowlton (32:46):
There you go.
Caroline (32:46):
There's plenty of people that need help.
So even if your perspective is alittle different than mine,
that's okay.
'cause that's what somebodyneeds.
John Knowlton (32:54):
Yeah.
Well, at commencement addresses,it's almost a cliche to say,
follow your passion and
Caroline (33:00):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (33:00):
Not all passions are at the sweet spot of you
like it, it's good for otherpeople and it makes money that
those are the three things thatkind of need to come together
for a career to work.
You've gotta have skills aroundit.
It's gotta be a blessing toothers.
Otherwise you're doing theft andthen it's gotta generate,
(33:20):
there's gotta be a financialengine to it, right?
And so I would say find thosethings.
Now you can get some clues tothat.
Things that people tell youyou're good at is one.
Things that you can, you, youasked earlier, Caroline, about
what caused you to lose track oftime.
That that's when we get intothat flow state, right?
Caroline (33:39):
Yep.
John Knowlton (33:39):
And that's a clue to some of the things that, that
you can be successful at.
But then you've gotta have afinancial engine too, because we
are doing this to, for ourlivelihood.
And so you could.
You could coach, kindergartners,they're probably not gonna pay
you much.
Maybe that should be yourvolunteer thing.
(34:00):
And then you coach, you know,business people who can pay you.
Caroline (34:05):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I need to get some businessclients to help with their,
maybe employee retention and,and, leadership development
because businesses will have theresources to continue to invest
in their people.
People that my heart might becalled to help those who have
been laid off or something ofthat sort.
Phenomenal people.
But the reality is if they justlost a job, they don't really
(34:28):
have a lot of money to investin.
John Knowlton (34:31):
That's right.
Caroline (34:31):
it depends on what they do ahead of time, but
John Knowlton (34:33):
Yeah.
Caroline (34:33):
there's just different, different facets of
different things.
But yeah, Some are hobbies andsome are jobs, careers.
John Knowlton (34:40):
But, but I would say whatever it is that you're,
you wanna do, the value creationcycle begins with giving.
Jesus of Nazareth said, give andit shall be given to you.
And so, Yes we,
Caroline (34:54):
Yes.
John Knowlton (34:55):
If we enter the world seeking to gain people,
sniff that out in no time flat.
But if we come as someone whohas something to give, then that
will begin this cycle thatresults in success and, and
increase in abundance.
Caroline (35:14):
Absolutely.
I'm big on authentic success,and to me, authentic success is
whatever you define it to be.
Right?
What, what you want it, notnecessarily how somebody else
would define it, but how do youdefine authentic success for you
in this moment?
John Knowlton (35:28):
Sure.
Well, generally I'll say successis, is an asymptote.
You might remember that conceptfrom geometry, right?
It's a curve that approaches butnever touches a line.
It gets ever closer.
So you could say, go halfway tothat wall.
Go halfway again.
Go halfway.
Again, you'll never get there,but you get closer and closer.
And so if you think about thecurve as your life and the the
(35:51):
line that you're approaching isthe purpose for which you were
made, and success is gettingthat curve closer and closer to
the purpose for which you weremade.
So for me, my purpose is to helppeople think better every day.
And I believe that all of ouroutcomes are a result of our
behaviors, which are all rootedin our thinking.
(36:12):
So if we can start with gettingour thinking right, get
selfishness out, getself-centeredness out, get me-
me- me out, and start to focuson how do I serve you?
How do I, become, someone whoenables you or it, it causes
good things to come into yourlife?
While that's gonna lead to theright kind of behaviors that
(36:32):
cause me to serve you well.
And then the outcomes are gonnabe great for both of us.
Caroline (36:38):
Oh, I love it.
So remind me, how do people findyou?
How can they find Thinking forSuccess?
How could they work with you?
Or maybe even be part of C 12?
John Knowlton (36:47):
Yeah.
Caroline (36:48):
where do people go if they're inspired and want to get
more of this?
John Knowlton (36:51):
I tried to make it easy.
So the book is called Thinkingfor Success, and the website is
thinkingforsuccess.com so that'sa spot where I post insights
and, you can get the access to,sections of the book and,
contact us there.
Caroline (37:04):
Well, thank you so very much, John.
This has been an amazing,engaging, inspiring
conversation, and I wish youcontinued success with the
Thinking for Success book.
John Knowlton (37:16):
Thanks so much, Caroline.
I hope it was a blessing to yourlisteners.
Caroline (37:19):
John's journey shows us that success is not just
about titles or numbers, it'sabout aligning your work,
family, and purpose.
His stories and practical toolsremind us that when we think
better, we live better and welead better.
Be sure to connect with John andgrab a free
(37:40):
chapter of his book atthinkingforsuccess.com.
John, thank you for sharing your story and wisdom
with us today.
And to all of you listening,when you take these insights and
start to think better every day,you are already on the path to
your next success.
(38:01):
Thanks for listening to YourNext Success with Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
Remember, authentic success isyours to define and includes
aligning your career to supportthe life you want.
What if the way you think is the biggest factor
(00:04):
holding you back or propellingyou forward?
John Knowlton has lived thattruth across ministry, business,
and family, and now he's on amission to help leaders think
better every day.
This episode is for leaders whofeel outwardly successful, but
(00:25):
inwardly unfulfilledprofessionals in transition,
wondering what's next, andanyone who wants practical tools
to improve their thinking andleadership.
This is the Your Next Successpodcast, and I'm your host, Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
I'm a life first career coachand strategist on a mission to
(00:48):
normalize questioning yourcareer because I believe each of
us is made on purpose for apurpose only we can fulfill.
The longer we live out ofalignment with who we are, what
we do best, and why we're here,the more we miss out.
And the more the world missesout On what only we can give the
(01:10):
Your Next Success Podcast iswhere we explore how to build a
career that truly fuels yourlife.
We talk about self-discovery,smart job, search strategies,
professional growth, and you'llhear stories from people who've
navigated big career transitionsthemselves so you can see what
it's really like to make boldchanges and feel inspired to
(01:34):
create your own version ofauthentic success, one that is
aligned, meaningful, and trulyyours.
John Knowlton started out as apastor and chaplain before
moving into wealth managementwhere he co-founded and scaled a
firm to more than a billiondollars in client assets.
(01:56):
After selling his interest in2020, he took a family first
sabbatical and now serves as a C12 chair guiding Christian CEOs
to build businesses for agreater purpose.
He's also the author of Thinkingfor Success coming out in 2026,
which distills 52 story-drivenmental models to help people
(02:18):
think and lead better.
In today's conversation, Johnshares his journey through
ministry business and familylife, and what he's learned
about aligning work withpurpose.
We talk about turning points: growth, sabbatical, and why all (02:31):
undefined
outcomes are rooted in the waywe think.
In this episode, you'll hear howJohn went from seminary and
chaplaincy into building abillion dollar wealth firm.
What a two week time studytaught him about growth and
(02:51):
focus, why he sold his businessand took a sabbatical with his
family.
How his work with C 12 and hisbook Thinking for Success help
leaders upgrade their thinking.
Welcome John to Your NextSuccess.
I am thrilled to have youjoining us today.
John Knowlton (03:12):
Caroline, it's an honor and a pleasure, and I hope
to be a real blessing to theaudience.
Caroline (03:16):
Oh, I know that you will.
Well, as you know, I am tryingto help normalize career
transitions and learn more aboutpeople's stories, and especially
those who have, you know, hadsome twists and turns and are
brave enough to share that.
So, I know we are going to getto the amazing work that you do
today, which is helping businessleaders.
You have a phenomenal bookgetting ready to launch that I
(03:37):
know is gonna be a realtremendous benefit.
So we're gonna get to that.
But let's start at thebeginning.
in your childhood, what kind ofthings did you love to do?
Or were there any interests orthoughts that you had about what
you might wanna do for yourcareer later on?
John Knowlton (03:57):
Yeah, good question.
In terms of taking me back acouple of years.
I think I at one point thought Iwould be an architect, but it
turns out I'm not good atdrawing or thinking about space.
And so that wasn't it.
And, I'm five foot six, sobasketball career was out of the
cards.
So, you know, you think things.
Caroline (04:17):
Better suited for a fan.
John Knowlton (04:19):
Yep, I'm an excellent fan.
Yes, I can cheer like with thebest of them.
Caroline (04:23):
What kind of, activities did you enjoy doing?
Or what things were you doingthat you lost all concept of
time?
John Knowlton (04:30):
Yeah, I was a Boy Scout and, earned Eagle Scout
badge as well as my, my brotherdid as well, and, we really
liked.
I really liked being outdoors.
I don't know that he l did, but,so I'll let, I'll let you
interview him next time, but I,I really liked being outdoors
and, have continued to be anoutdoor athlete all my life.
Bicycling and hiking, running,gotten into mountaineering
(04:52):
lately, so those are
Caroline (04:53):
Very cool.
John Knowlton (04:55):
long days, not very fast.
So basketball is short, quick atbursts of speed.
I'm the tortoise who willeventually get to the top of the
mountain.
Caroline (05:05):
But that's interesting though that even with the
fascination and desire andsticking with scouts, that also
from a very young age washelping you develop your
leadership and giving youopportunities to guide and lead
others.
Really neat.
John Knowlton (05:21):
Yeah, our scoutmaster had a philosophy
that it wasn't his job to leadthe troop, it was the boy's job.
And, he wrote a letter that myparents recently found.
He's passed away, but this is,gosh, from 1984 maybe.
And, and he'd written thisletter to the Eagle Scout
(05:43):
Committee that was going toassess me for the rank.
In any case he told the story ofme as a young teenager coming to
him to complain about the poorquality of the scout meetings
and demanding to know when hewas going to fix it.
And his answer was never, it'snot my job to fix your meeting,
(06:03):
it's your job.
And so in what, ninth grade orsomething like that.
He was making the point that if.
I saw something that needed tobe changed.
Well, the responsibility waswith me.
Caroline (06:17):
Oh wow.
And that's so interesting thoughalso because we're gonna get to
this, but part of the beauty ofyour book Thinking for Success
is it can be there to helppeople have guides that can be
used in staff meetings and helpleaders have new ways to think
of stuff.
So even then there was this seedand this inkling and this
(06:42):
desire, innate desire that youwere having to want to make
those better, so
John Knowlton (06:48):
Yeah, well at that time I could identify what
was wrong, but, identifyingproblems is the lowest form of
thinking.
Caroline (06:56):
That's right.
John Knowlton (06:57):
Yeah, so I had to learn to identify solutions as
well.
That's where the, that's wherethe success comes in.
Caroline (07:03):
Absolutely.
Okay, so you obtained this EagleScout rank, which is a
tremendous, amount of work.
My brother got, to his EagleScout.
My kids decided to, pursue otheractivities,
John Knowlton (07:16):
Sure.
Caroline (07:16):
other talents.
When you went to high school,were there any particular types
of classes or activities, thatyou particularly enjoyed then?
John Knowlton (07:27):
Both in high school and in college, I took a
stochastic approach.
And so that's a big word thatmeans random.
And so as a, I think a, yes, asenior, my fall semester I went
from advanced physics to smallengine repair and back then,
there were two tracks and I wason the going to college track,
(07:49):
and so the vocational ed classeswere not available to me.
My dad had to sign a specialform, giving permission for me
to take an engine repair class.
Caroline (08:00):
Interesting.
John Knowlton (08:01):
and then I booked out a high school a semester
early and started college andwas just taking any classes that
sounded interesting.
I took physics, I took.
Ah, psychology.
I took political science.
I took earth science, and afterfive years my dad says, well,
that's it.
I'm not paying tuition anymore.
(08:21):
And, see, we had this implicitagreement that I would take
classes forever and he would payfor them forever, but he was not
on board with my implicit plan.
And so, so I went, to.
To the counselors or whomever atthe registrar's office and said,
I've been here five years,surely I've got a degree, right?
(08:43):
And, so they, they eventuallylet me escape.
Caroline (08:48):
And your degree was geology?
John Knowlton (08:50):
Let me see.
I had a, a Bachelor of sciencewith a major in earth science
Caroline (08:56):
Okay.
John Knowlton (08:56):
and a minor in, political science and religion.
Caroline (09:02):
Aha.
Aha.
And now that kind of goes tothis, this next enterprise.
'cause then you continued onwith school, right?
So what, what after yougraduated college
John Knowlton (09:13):
Yeah.
Then I went to,
Caroline (09:15):
me the, then what
John Knowlton (09:16):
then I went to seminary.
Seminary is a professionaltraining school for pastors
where you earn a practicaldegree, not an academic degree
called a master of divinity.
So there are theological oracademic degrees called Masters
of Theological Studies or orsomething else that might lead
to a PhD.
Masters of Divinity aretypically the last degree that
(09:38):
working pastors earn.
I didn't quite complete thatcourse of study, but I did end
up working as a pastor invarious settings.
I was a jail chaplain.
I worked in an inner citychurch.
I worked in very rural, veryrural churches on the banks of
the Ohio River and, no runningwater in the church building,
(09:59):
outhouse.
Yeah.
So very diverse experiences andthen still to this day, I'm, on
staff at a, now a pretty goodsized inner city church in
Kalamazoo, Michigan.
I'm the white business guypastor amongst mostly, African
American full Gospel church.
Caroline (10:16):
Hmm.
That's, it's gotta be a verybeautiful experience though.
Just very amazing
John Knowlton (10:23):
It's cool.
We've made a lot of friends thatwe wouldn't have made otherwise,
and, my wife and I have beenthere for 22 years, so we're
Pretty committed.
That's our place.
Caroline (10:32):
So as you, uh, moved on from the seminary studies,
and then what'd you choose to dofor work at that time?
What was going on in life?
What was going on in work?
John Knowlton (10:40):
Sure.
So I was married to a, my firstwife who was convinced that
ministry was ruining ourmarriage.
Caroline (10:47):
Hmm
John Knowlton (10:48):
Okay, I am committed to you before I
committed to the church.
So stepped away from full-timeministry and Caroline, I was
applying for every kind of jobthat should have been opened.
This is in, in my twenties, andI could get interviews, but I
couldn't get a job.
I'm back to painting apartmentbuildings to buy groceries and,
(11:09):
goodness sakes, nothing wasopening up for me.
And so my mom sent me arecruiting VHS videotape, you
know, you'd clunk it into themachine and watch, gotta rewind
it, be kind, and rewind.
Caroline (11:21):
Be kind, rewind.
John Knowlton (11:22):
That's it.
Any case, it was a recruitingvideotape from Edward Jones.
And, I watched the video.
I said, ah.
I like investing and I'll applyand they rejected me.
But the process of theirapplication experience got me
interested in pursuing thefield.
So I looked around and figuredout who had a good training
(11:45):
program in my area, and I wentto a career fair with one resume
because I knew which company Iwanted to hire me, and I gave it
to the recruiter and they hiredme and they didn't tell me it
was supposed to take a long timeto pass all these tests.
And I did it in the fastest timeanybody had heard of, just
because I didn't know that itwas supposed to take a long
(12:05):
time.
Caroline (12:05):
that it was a expectation to be otherwise.
Yeah.
John Knowlton (12:08):
I have to read 600 pages and take a test on it.
Great.
Sign me up next week.
And so I did that.
Six months later, my first wifeleft me.
So apparently my job wasn't thewhole issue.
I'm sure it was much more aboutmy performance as a husband.
And so I started a career inwealth management and As I
(12:28):
stumbled backwards into it, itturned out to be something I was
okay at.
Caroline (12:32):
Now, do you think that part of that first wife's,
influence and saying ministrywas ruining your marriage, was
that partially why you didn'tfinish that degree?
John Knowlton (12:42):
No, it wasn't.
Caroline (12:44):
Okay.
All right.
Not related, and so then.
At the time that seems like, Awman, I had this marriage I
committed to forever and nowwhat?
But then did you pour your lifeinto that wealth management
financial career?
John Knowlton (13:00):
I was pretty dedicated.
Needing money, you know, to liveand all that.
So that was, I didn't have acomputer on my desk.
We, this was at the end of thenineties before the internet was
widely available.
In fact, when I had myinterview, I sent a thank you
email to the vice president whohired me, and he told me later
(13:22):
that was the first externalemail he'd ever received.
Caroline (13:26):
Oh wow.
Interesting.
Well, good for you for being upwith technology.
John Knowlton (13:29):
Well, they had an in internal email system, but no
one was using it outside of, youknow, from company to company at
the time.
Caroline (13:40):
Oh, very interesting.
John Knowlton (13:40):
And so it was literally names and phone
numbers onto pieces of paper andpick up the phone and dial it.
Wait, interrupt their dinner.
Hey, I'm John from this company,can we talk about financial
planning?
You know, that kind of thing.
Caroline (13:56):
Did you have a certain number of calls you had to do
each day?
John Knowlton (13:58):
Some firms were like 300 dials a day.
You know, you may have heardthese kind of stories.
That is really, really brutal.
I tried to hone my effectivenessso that I could reduce my
volume.
Caroline (14:10):
Yes.
Yeah, when I did, when I firstdid recruiting, for the chemical
industry, it had grown from oneof those, at that time it was a
hundred call, a hundred dials aday type of thing.
And, and people, sure enough,they would check off these
little sheets of what kind ofcall they had and this and that,
and I'm like, oh my gosh.
I was like, I'm gonna doquality, not quantity.
So I'm gonna do, I'm gonna findhow to do warm stuff.
(14:31):
I'm gonna hit the metric of theresults, but let me figure out
how I'm gonna get there.
I don't feel the need to, todial a hundred nonsense calls if
I could have two good ones.
So,
John Knowlton (14:43):
Yep.
That's what I tried to do.
Yeah.
Caroline (14:45):
Yeah.
Well, that's cool.
That's okay.
So then what happened?
So how did you go from that totransitioning out of it?
John Knowlton (14:54):
Yeah.
Well, so that was a 24 yearcareer or something like that.
My current wife and permanentwife, Julie, was a prospect.
So she was looking for financialadvice.
Caroline (15:07):
So it had not been for that.
Career choice that you made, youwould not have met this
beautiful blessing
John Knowlton (15:15):
there you go.
Caroline (15:16):
of your wife.
John Knowlton (15:17):
That's right.
Yep.
Caroline (15:18):
Yeah.
And, and you guys went on tohave a, a few children then
decided to add a couple
John Knowlton (15:24):
Yeah.
Caroline (15:25):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (15:26):
Yeah.
So, so, I have a stepdaughterJulie brought to our marriage.
We have a son together and thenwe, fostered siblings and then
ended up adopting this them, sofour kids in total.
And Caroline, if you can thinkof another way to get kids, I
don't want to know what it isbecause we are at the cusp of
the nest being empty.
(15:46):
So my last youngest is a seniorin high school.
Caroline (15:50):
Oh, that's exciting.
Well, I wish that you can stillmake great influences on
children's lives, but maybe notyour children.
John Knowlton (15:57):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, Caroline, I'll, I'llcontinue this story.
So I, I was an individualcontributor in a big company and
after, well, about a year and ahalf, this is typical in sales
organizations.
I sort of met the metrics andtherefore was promoted to
manager.
Caroline (16:17):
As an individual contributor, so therefore we're
gonna move you out of thatindividual contributor and let's
see how good your people skillsare yet with your training
before and your desire andworking with them through people
and helping.
Yeah.
So how'd that go?
John Knowlton (16:31):
Yeah, so that was, that was okay.
I think I was a fair manager inmy twenties.
I wouldn't say a great one.
And, in case we decided, Julieand I had met and we had decided
I was gonna go step outta thatmanagement role and back into
building my own practice, if youwill, of having my own clients.
And she still had a corporatejob, so it was okay.
(16:52):
She had nice benefits and I wasgonna go from a salary back to
eat what you kill.
And, six months after we gotmarried was 9/11.
Caroline (17:03):
Huh.
John Knowlton (17:03):
And she tells me, you know what?
I think God wants me to stepoutta my corporate job and go
work part-time as the churchoffice administrator.
And I'm like, huh.
So we're going from.
Caroline (17:16):
Great timing.
Okay, but God, but, God wantsher to do it.
So then you kind of likesometimes when those God wants
you to do something, I don'tknow about you, but I kind of
learned to be like, okay.
All right.
That's what I'm doing.
I guess if you're give, puttingit on my heart, you're gonna
gimme a way to make it happen.
But what were your thoughts?
John Knowlton (17:36):
Here was my response.
Okay, let me pray about that.
And on a Monday, I felt that Godwas telling me to say yes to
Julie.
And so I said.
I love you and I trust you God,but I wanna make sure I'm
hearing you right.
So I'm gonna ask again tomorrow.
(17:56):
So on Tuesday I got the sameanswer and so I at breakfast to,
I said to Julie, I have no ideahow this is gonna work, but.
Put in your notice.
20 minutes later, Caroline, Igot to work and there was a
voicemail from a woman who wasnear the end of her career
looking for a succession plan.
(18:17):
She brought me into herpractice, paid me a salary,
introduced me to all herclients, and sold me her
business.
Caroline (18:24):
Wow.
Wow.
John Knowlton (18:27):
I learned.
Caroline (18:27):
That was already lined up like that.
Yeah.
John Knowlton (18:30):
I, I, and I learned through that process a
trust.
My wife, when she tells me sheheard from God.
Second is I learned you can getclients one at a time by dialing
the phone.
Whole lot and wearing yourfinger out, or you could buy'em
in chunks.
And I liked buying'em in chunks.
And so from 2005 to say 2015, Icontinued to learn about doing
(18:58):
acquisitions, mergers andacquisitions, learning about how
to approach elderly.
I say elderly, I'm getting closeto the age, but you know,
advisors with gray hair, I wouldfind them.
Caroline (19:08):
Whose gonna approach you?
John Knowlton (19:10):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Look at that.
Any case, the, finding, refiningmy process.
How do I approach'em, how do I,how do I learn to communicate
that I'm gonna deliver goodquality care and service to
their clients?
All, all the things.
And we did a few little dealsand I, I built a practice.
So by 2014 or so, I had one goodpartner and, a handful of staff.
(19:36):
And we were managing about$125million of client assets.
And we set a goal that year in2014 to be, at a billion
dollars, so to 8X our company.
Caroline (19:48):
Hmm.
John Knowlton (19:48):
And we kinda looked at each other and neither
my partner or I knew how tomanage a business eight times
larger and said, well, maybe weshould get some skill up a
little bit here.
And so I drew the short strawand I was gonna go get a, a
Master's in Businessadministration and right before
I picked the program, I, youknow, signed up and everything,
(20:08):
but right before it started,three different people who don't
know each other in threedifferent states told me not to
do it.
Caroline (20:15):
Oh.
John Knowlton (20:16):
And one of them said, John, you can read all
those books yourself.
What you need is a group ofother business people to walk
life together with you.
So, okay.
All right.
That's interesting.
We set the goal, I found what'scalled a pure advisory group, an
(20:36):
hour away.
I would drive once a month and,any case, I'm, I'm kind of
working this process and we hadidentified mergers and
acquisition as our biggestopportunity to hit this billion
dollar goal.
And after a year, we'd basicallynot made any progress.
Caroline (20:52):
Hmm.
John Knowlton (20:53):
And so I did something brutal.
I did a two week time study onmyself.
So in 15 minute increments, Iassessed, what do I do?
At work all day long.
So at the end of two weeks, Ihad over 400 data points before
Ai.
And so I had to go you know,kind of put these things into
(21:16):
buckets.
And I, I realized there werekind of four big buckets of how
I was spending my time.
One was client service.
One was running the business.
One was, let's say it wasinvestment management and the
one getting the least amount oftime, of course, was our biggest
opportunity (21:32):
mergers and acquisitions.
And so we used that data to maketwo key changes.
And the first was to hireanother financial advisor to
service some of my clientresponsibilities to give me more
time,
Caroline (21:45):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (21:45):
Free up time.
And then we hired somebody whoseonly job was to work on mergers
and acquisitions.
We didn't even teach her how tohelp clients.
Because we
Caroline (21:54):
wow.
John Knowlton (21:54):
her getting sucked into operational stuff.
She had to work exclusively onnew business through
acquisition.
So We got this person now I needto keep her busy.
And so it turbocharged myeffort.
So we built an email list.
I had over 4,000 advisors that Iwas continuously drip marketing
to and writing campaigns andmaking outbound phone calls and
(22:17):
all this kind of stuff.
And in 2018 we made a keymerger.
So we had developed capabilitieson the M&A side, and this other
firm it's a little bigger thanus, but similar sized, had
excellent investment managementand client service processes
built out but didn't, hadn'tdone M&A.
(22:40):
And so when we merged, it was acashless transaction.
We just put the two firmstogether, but now we've got this
great platform of investmentmanagement excellence, and
client service excellence that Icould start to drop all kinds of
deals into.
And so from 2014 when we were at$125 million to 2020, when I
(23:02):
exited, we were at a billion anda quarter.
And just in case the money, themath is fuzzy.
That's a 10X in five years.
Caroline (23:15):
Imagine what your life would be like if your career
aligned with who you are, whatyou do best, and actually fueled
the life you want.
At Next Success, we support allages and stages through career
transitions from studentsexploring majors or careers to
job seekers actively searchingor re-imagining their next move
(23:37):
to professionals committed toself-awareness and leadership
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Did you plan your 2020 exitbefore knowing about COVID?
John Knowlton (24:01):
Well, I lived through COVID.
I was working through COVID, soit was at the end of that year.
Yeah.
Caroline (24:06):
Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
'cause I've talked to somepeople and it's like.
That's when they were gonnaleave their big corporate job
and start their business.
And like I talked, one,beautiful lady whose podcast was
getting ready to be released,she had set a date of March
13th, 2020 was the day she wasgonna leave her job right now.
March 13th was the day it allwent down with like the two
(24:28):
weeks to slow to spread,
John Knowlton (24:29):
Right.
Caroline (24:29):
So.
Her husband.
Luckily that day was like, areyou sure you wanna pick today?
Our governor just said
John Knowlton (24:35):
Yes.
Caroline (24:36):
She, she delayed it for a while, but
John Knowlton (24:38):
Yeah.
Caroline (24:38):
It's just kind of interesting how it all works.
Okay.
So you leave that business
John Knowlton (24:45):
if you don't mind, I'll just say besides
hitting the, the business goalof being over a billion dollars.
We had two adopted kids, youremember.
Adopted kids often come with atrauma background because if
you're eligible to be adopted,that means stuff went wrong.
Your parents couldn't care foryou, or there was abuse or
(25:06):
neglect or all of the above,whatever.
And so, one of our adopted kidshad such a trauma history that
she needed to live in aresidential treatment for four
years.
And, so we live in Michigan.
She was in treatment in Texas.
And so once a month.
Julie or I would fly to Houston,rent a car, drive to the other
(25:29):
town an hour or so away, spend afew hours with a kid and repeat
the process.
It would be, 36 hours of travelfor, a four hour visit.
Something like that.
Yeah.
But, that chow was ready to comehome and reenter family life
and, and Julie raised her handand said, Hey, you know, I'm
gonna need some help here.
(25:50):
I cannot bear this alone.
And so, so we had thatcombination of need in the
family and we'd hit the businessgoal and so that, that converged
at the end of 2020.
Caroline (26:01):
to make that happen.
John Knowlton (26:03):
Yeah.
Caroline (26:03):
Then you were able to be at home and help with that
transition for that beautifulchild and, and then what?
John Knowlton (26:11):
Huh.
Well, Julie said you're notworking.
In 2021, you're taking a yearlong sabbatical.
Caroline (26:18):
Oh.
John Knowlton (26:18):
And so I did, I built an addition on the house
and we bought a, motor home anddid an epic RV trip across the
country.
And,
Caroline (26:27):
So how many kids went on that trip?
John Knowlton (26:30):
Well, two were with us for the whole month.
The younger two, one was livingon the West coast, and so we met
her when we got there, and onewas a young adult and flew out
to spend one week with us andthen we had a, a fiance as well.
So there was a total of whatfour..., seven people, but not
(26:53):
all.
You know, we had various,arrangements and,
Caroline (26:55):
How did that work with, because, motor homes are
larger than regular vehicles,but I don't know about you.
Getting family together to be ina very tiny space for an
extended period of time, is ablessing and an opportunity to
learn a little more patience.
(27:16):
But how, how was that, how, howthat work?
I've, I've often thought it'd begreat to do one of those kinds
of trips, but then a two hourroad trip anywhere has me
rethink that plan.
John Knowlton (27:29):
Yeah, I, so it has not been repeated.
Let, maybe that's enough.
My wife and I love it.
And so we camp together,
Caroline (27:38):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (27:39):
just the two of us.
Caroline (27:42):
Well that's, that's interesting.
What are some of the greatestmemories or experiences from
that time that you got to havetogether?
John Knowlton (27:52):
We discovered the Pacific Northwest and, the
Cascade Range, Mount Rainier,Mount Hood.
And, so since then I've climbeda, a Pacific Northwest Mountain
every year since then.
Caroline (28:04):
Wow.
Wow.
That's so cool.
All right, so you come back fromthis epic road trip and take us
up on that part of the story.
John Knowlton (28:16):
and I stumbled again, right?
I keep stumbling on things.
If you know the story ofGenesis, Jacob was wandering
around one place and he, hehappened upon a place where he
fell asleep and had thisincredible dream of angels
ascending and descending thisladder, and he wakes up and he
said.
(28:38):
Wow.
This is none other than the gateof heaven.
So he just stumbled upon thisgate of heaven, right?
So I stumbled upon somethingcalled C 12.
C 12 is peer advisory, like Ihad been part of as a business
leader, but it's specificallyfor Christian CEOs and business
owners.
And so I now lead a couple ofgroups of people running
(29:00):
businesses.
And, we have a, a monthly daylong business retreat, and then
I coach them in between as well.
And so it's this perfect Venndiagram of business and ministry
for me.
And along the way I've, I'vereally become clear on my
purpose, which has, is to helppeople think better every day.
Caroline (29:19):
Hmm, and, and so you stumbled upon C 12 and it's an
organization that hired you, oryou volunteered, or how does
that work?
John Knowlton (29:26):
It's technically a franchise, and so, I'm a 10
99.
Caroline (29:32):
Got you.
John Knowlton (29:33):
Yeah, it's a for-profit entity.
The members pay real, real, duesto be a part of it.
Caroline (29:39):
That's so cool.
But, but yet it was using a lotof your foundational building
blocks that you had acquiredthrough all this, and an outlet
in a different way.
And yes, combining that ministryand vocation together.
That's, that's so cool.
And so how did this, becoming anauthor come about?
John Knowlton (29:57):
Ah, yeah.
Well, I didn't set out to writethis book Thinking for Success,
rather just as I was leadingpeople, I realized that people
keep making the same mistakes,whether it's at their work or
how they're interacting withclients or complaining about
their spouses, whatever, right?
People keep hitting their headagainst the same wall, and I
(30:18):
would try telling them what todo, which didn't empower them.
I would try giving a principle,but principles tend to be
abstract and hard to apply.
And then I stumbled upon theidea of telling stories.
So I would tell a story in astaff meeting, would talk about
it a little bit and give it anice title or descriptive
(30:40):
handle.
And then whenever that lessonneeded to be refreshed, we could
just refer to remember IndianaJones, or remember Jonathan
Munkhouse on HMS Endeavor,whatever the case might be.
And I said, you know, I'm gonnastart forgetting the stories so
I would write them down.
And then over some period ofyears I realized I had 40
(31:02):
stories written down, and thenlightning fast brain.
Hey, if you have 52 of these,you'd have one a week for a
year's worth of staff meetings.
So I kept writing them until Ihad 70 stories or so, hired an
editing team to get it down tothe best 52.
Caroline (31:18):
Hmm.
And so that's Thinking forSuccess, and when will that be a
available?
Actually, I think you have a wayto get people a head start on
knowing what that's all aboutnow.
John Knowlton (31:27):
Yeah.
So, I'm happy to provide a freechapter, so if you just go to
thinkingforsuccess.com, thefirst thing you'll see is a
popup saying, Hey, you want afree chapter from John's book?
Sure, go ahead and get that.
And then it'll also include alink to a 90-second video where
I explain how to use it in astaff meeting.
So this is really designed forfor leaders who want to empower
(31:49):
their staff to think better, orfor individual contributors to
upgrade their own thinking.
Caroline (31:55):
And when will the rest of the book be out for the
masses to be able to buy?
John Knowlton (31:59):
Yeah, so, officially it's January 6th,
2026, but I understand thatpre-orders do matter.
And so, there's a link in thatsame spot to, to find it at
anywhere you like to buy books.
Caroline (32:12):
What's your advice for people who are not sure if what
they're doing is what they wantto continue doing and they're
starting to have those questionsand what if somebody comes to
you with that kind of a desireor struggle?
What?
What do you say?
John Knowlton (32:31):
Yeah.
Well, I don't wanna contradictyour advice, Caroline, so I know
you have your own own approach,but I'll share mine and
Caroline (32:40):
Yeah, because there's different people will only hear
certain messages from differentvoices.
John Knowlton (32:46):
There you go.
Caroline (32:46):
There's plenty of people that need help.
So even if your perspective is alittle different than mine,
that's okay.
'cause that's what somebodyneeds.
John Knowlton (32:54):
Yeah.
Well, at commencement addresses,it's almost a cliche to say,
follow your passion and
Caroline (33:00):
Yeah.
John Knowlton (33:00):
Not all passions are at the sweet spot of you
like it, it's good for otherpeople and it makes money that
those are the three things thatkind of need to come together
for a career to work.
You've gotta have skills aroundit.
It's gotta be a blessing toothers.
Otherwise you're doing theft andthen it's gotta generate,
(33:20):
there's gotta be a financialengine to it, right?
And so I would say find thosethings.
Now you can get some clues tothat.
Things that people tell youyou're good at is one.
Things that you can, you, youasked earlier, Caroline, about
what caused you to lose track oftime.
That that's when we get intothat flow state, right?
Caroline (33:39):
Yep.
John Knowlton (33:39):
And that's a clue to some of the things that, that
you can be successful at.
But then you've gotta have afinancial engine too, because we
are doing this to, for ourlivelihood.
And so you could.
You could coach, kindergartners,they're probably not gonna pay
you much.
Maybe that should be yourvolunteer thing.
(34:00):
And then you coach, you know,business people who can pay you.
Caroline (34:05):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I need to get some businessclients to help with their,
maybe employee retention and,and, leadership development
because businesses will have theresources to continue to invest
in their people.
People that my heart might becalled to help those who have
been laid off or something ofthat sort.
Phenomenal people.
But the reality is if they justlost a job, they don't really
(34:28):
have a lot of money to investin.
John Knowlton (34:31):
That's right.
Caroline (34:31):
it depends on what they do ahead of time, but
John Knowlton (34:33):
Yeah.
Caroline (34:33):
there's just different, different facets of
different things.
But yeah, Some are hobbies andsome are jobs, careers.
John Knowlton (34:40):
But, but I would say whatever it is that you're,
you wanna do, the value creationcycle begins with giving.
Jesus of Nazareth said, give andit shall be given to you.
And so, Yes we,
Caroline (34:54):
Yes.
John Knowlton (34:55):
If we enter the world seeking to gain people,
sniff that out in no time flat.
But if we come as someone whohas something to give, then that
will begin this cycle thatresults in success and, and
increase in abundance.
Caroline (35:14):
Absolutely.
I'm big on authentic success,and to me, authentic success is
whatever you define it to be.
Right?
What, what you want it, notnecessarily how somebody else
would define it, but how do youdefine authentic success for you
in this moment?
John Knowlton (35:28):
Sure.
Well, generally I'll say successis, is an asymptote.
You might remember that conceptfrom geometry, right?
It's a curve that approaches butnever touches a line.
It gets ever closer.
So you could say, go halfway tothat wall.
Go halfway again.
Go halfway.
Again, you'll never get there,but you get closer and closer.
And so if you think about thecurve as your life and the the
(35:51):
line that you're approaching isthe purpose for which you were
made, and success is gettingthat curve closer and closer to
the purpose for which you weremade.
So for me, my purpose is to helppeople think better every day.
And I believe that all of ouroutcomes are a result of our
behaviors, which are all rootedin our thinking.
(36:12):
So if we can start with gettingour thinking right, get
selfishness out, getself-centeredness out, get me-
me- me out, and start to focuson how do I serve you?
How do I, become, someone whoenables you or it, it causes
good things to come into yourlife?
While that's gonna lead to theright kind of behaviors that
(36:32):
cause me to serve you well.
And then the outcomes are gonnabe great for both of us.
Caroline (36:38):
Oh, I love it.
So remind me, how do people findyou?
How can they find Thinking forSuccess?
How could they work with you?
Or maybe even be part of C 12?
John Knowlton (36:47):
Yeah.
Caroline (36:48):
where do people go if they're inspired and want to get
more of this?
John Knowlton (36:51):
I tried to make it easy.
So the book is called Thinkingfor Success, and the website is
thinkingforsuccess.com so that'sa spot where I post insights
and, you can get the access to,sections of the book and,
contact us there.
Caroline (37:04):
Well, thank you so very much, John.
This has been an amazing,engaging, inspiring
conversation, and I wish youcontinued success with the
Thinking for Success book.
John Knowlton (37:16):
Thanks so much, Caroline.
I hope it was a blessing to yourlisteners.
Caroline (37:19):
John's journey shows us that success is not just
about titles or numbers, it'sabout aligning your work,
family, and purpose.
His stories and practical toolsremind us that when we think
better, we live better and welead better.
Be sure to connect with John andgrab a free
(37:40):
chapter of his book atthinkingforsuccess.com.
John, thank you for sharing your story and wisdom
with us today.
And to all of you listening,when you take these insights and
start to think better every day,you are already on the path to
your next success.
(38:01):
Thanks for listening to YourNext Success with Dr.
Caroline Sangal.
Remember, authentic success isyours to define and includes
aligning your career to supportthe life you want.
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