December 6, 2024 • 35 mins
Gain a profound understanding of narcissistic personality disorder as we welcome our esteemed guest, Ms. Debora Faustin, a seasoned Licensed social worker with over ten years of experience. Misconceptions about narcissism abound, yet we clarify the line between self-confidence and NPD. Ms. Faustin shares her expert insight into identifying key traits like grandiosity, arrogance, and an insatiable need for validation, vital for diagnosis. Together, we unpack the delicate balance between healthy self-assurance and the patterns of behavior that signify a disorder affecting all life facets.
Explore the often-misunderstood world of covert narcissism, which can appear as depression due to its subtle nature. Ms. Faustin explains how professional diagnosis is crucial to avoid hasty labels based on apparent toxic behaviors. We traverse the stages of NPD, from mild symptoms to severe impacts on relationships, bringing to light the differences between narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders. Through this, our goal is to enhance comprehension of these intricate personality disorders and their manifestations.
Social media and narcissistic behaviors intersect in fascinating ways. Our discussion delves into how platforms become arenas for those seeking admiration, impacting professional environments. We highlight the nuanced challenges of handling narcissistic traits in the workplace, particularly from those in leadership roles. By offering strategies for setting boundaries and addressing these traits, we aim to promote healthier organizational dynamics. Finally, we point to invaluable resources, from insightful books to online materials, empowering listeners to deepen their understanding of narcissism and its pervasive effects.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, I'm Dr Beatrice Ippolit, and this is
your World.
Today, we have with us aspecial guest.
She's a social worker.
She's been in the field forover 10 years and her name is
(00:24):
Miss Deborah Fuston.
Hello, hello, how are you?
How are you doing, darling?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How are you so good?
I was traffic, I was commute.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It was okay.
There was some traffic, but Icouldn't understand why there
was no accidents or anything butby the grace of God, I made it
here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You know that I'm very delighted to have you today
.
I know you came from very farto make it, so it's a well
appreciated moment for us, thankyou.
Thank you so much.
Today we're gonna talk aboutsomething very particular, yes,
something that you know.
People tend to.
They use the word, but I don'tthink too many people really
know or understand the meaningof it.
We're going to talk aboutnarcissistic personality
(01:12):
disorder.
So you have the mic.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, hello everyone.
So, yes, we're going to talkabout narcissistic personality
disorder.
Oftentimes in today's world,you hear the word narcissism
being thrown out all the time,right?
Somebody does something wedon't like.
Oh, they're narcissistic.
The definition of a person whohas narcissistic personality
disorder is someone who has,like, an elevated personality,
(01:39):
right?
So they're very grandiose inthe way that they approach.
It's always about them.
They can be very arrogant.
They do require some type ofvalidation when it comes to the
way they present themselves.
It can be very manipulative, ina sort of way.
And in addition to that, thereare seven characteristics, and
(02:00):
out of those characteristics,you have to actually meet five
per the DSM-5, right?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So you have to meet at least five, but it can be
more as well.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Correct, it definitely can be more
characteristics.
Now, the issue that comes withthis is I just want to be clear
that someone who portrayscriteria may not necessarily be
diagnosed with a disorder, maynot necessarily be diagnosed
with a disorder.
(02:27):
This disorder often isn'tdiagnosed because one of the
criteria and importance of it isthat the person actually has to
acknowledge that it's a problemand that it's affecting
different areas in their life,so it has to affect their
occupation, their otherrelationships or somewhere
outside of just themselves.
Right, it can't just be thatthe person is interacting in a
certain way with one individual.
It has to be with multiple.
(02:47):
So this is the uh, thedifference and the most.
There must be a pattern, as well, there also has to be a pattern
of behavior.
It has to be consistentthroughout, so it's not just a
one day thing, a one month thing.
This is literally consistentlythe way that the person presents
, and a lot of the times theymay not even actually know that
(03:10):
they're presenting as such.
That is ridiculous, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
In that way.
So what is the difference, then, between narcissistic and
self-confidence?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So with self-confidence, right?
Someone can be veryself-confident and not boast
about it, right?
So we can both be sitting here.
We are both well-educated women.
We're confident in who we are,but we're not boastful about it.
We don't make it our duty tolet everybody know hey, I'm Ms
Faustina, I'm very confident inwho I am and I don't have to
(03:44):
talk about it every day, right?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You kind of see it in my actions, and every time that
you speak to somebody you haveto flash your degree out Exactly
, or you know.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I've been a social worker you know for over 10 or
what have you, so it's like youknow.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I have my license, I'm this, I'm that, but at the
end of the day, so you, you, youdon't.
You tend to be very humble.
God bless you with theprivilege of having some higher
education, but you understand itjust, you know.
For that, you use thateducation to better your life,
(04:18):
to improve your life, but not toput others down Correct.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So I'm not going to be exploitive of others because
of the education that I have,right, I'm not going to utilize
that self-confidence to seekvalidation from anybody.
However, an individual whopresents as narcissistic, they
would be very boastful about it.
So everything that they do,they have to let you know about
it.
They have to tell you hey,listen, look, I have this degree
(04:45):
.
Hey, listen, look my job, Imake this salary.
Hey, listen, look, look what Ijust did for this homeless
person here.
And they might actually evenpost about it all the time,
because you know we're living ina time of social media, so
everybody is always postingabout things.
Someone who may present asnarcissistic does that.
Look, girl, I just have a ginwagon, exactly exactly.
(05:08):
And don't get us wrong, we'renot saying that being boastful
is wrong, but there areboundaries that come with it and
someone who has narcissisticpersonality disorder doesn't
necessarily see the boundaries.
They don't see a necessity forit because they don't see a
problem with it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, so exactly In order for you to necessity for
it because they don't see aproblem with it.
Yeah, so exactly.
Another for you to identify aproblem as a problem, you have
to know that it's a problem.
If you don't know, you don'tidentify it as a problem.
So you think that it's okay tojust walk around and talk down
to people you know mistreatedothers, you know be exploitive
(05:43):
others.
So it's like those are reallysome serious characteristic
traits of the issue Correct andthey also lack empathy, right.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So they do it like you said and they just don't
really care about it, or maybethey might have an ounce of
remorse, but don't expect it tolast too long.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So if you were to list out, like the common traits
so, what that will be, so thecommon traits?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
the first one is the grandiosity.
So that's the main one thatpeople tend to see.
That's when the person is veryboastful, that's where you know
people kind of mix it up withself-confidence.
There's that one.
Lack of empathy is also a verybig thing as well.
Do not expect a person who hasthis personality disorder to
(06:27):
have empathy for you when itcomes to that emotional section
or an emotional aspect of theirlife.
Don't expect it.
They're really not going toshow any empathy at all.
So you.
Basically, you will see likethey they present themselves as
as in human, but sometimes itcan come off that way, so the
person on the receiving end itcan very much come off that way
(06:50):
where they might do somethingwrong that offends you and they
just they don't see why you'reoffended by it, so they don't
offer any apology or anything ofthe sort.
Another commonality, too, isthe sense of entitlement, right.
So it's this idea that Ideserve this, because, look at
me, I'm a great person, I havethis degree, I deserve this
(07:12):
level of job, and oftentimesthat is partnered with not being
able to accept criticism.
So there's that commonality.
And then also, too, the otherthing that oftentimes people
overlook but it is common is theneed for validation and praise,
and they feed off of that, theystrive off of that.
Without that, that can almostaffect the way that that
(07:35):
individual functions in theirday to day.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And the exploitative mentality towards that tends.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It's a major component toward that issue
correct, so they can often beexpletive to other people.
So, um, because there's also arage component that comes with,
uh, this personality disorder aswell, but it's just constantly
just being treating peopleunfairly, talking down about
people, um, because for themthey are the great and there is
(08:03):
no other better and you know onething.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So it's like some people may think that, oh, you
know what?
It's not too many people, youknow.
I understand it's a personalitydisorder, but not too many
people suffer from that disorder.
But you'll be surprised ourresearch indicated that 6.2
percent of the population sufferwith narcissistic personality
disorder.
So it's very serious.
(08:27):
It is very and, and you know,for whatever reason.
So it's more prevalent in mencompared to women.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes, yes, which is interesting, sorry, men, but
unfortunately I do.
I do believe that that may bedue to societal norms.
Society does not necessarilypreach for men to be emotional,
to be vulnerable, to showremorse, right, you're supposed
to kind of have this tough, meandemeanor and so, with that,
(08:58):
sometimes you learn thisbehavior from childhood, right,
because this is a personalitydisorder that can be learned
from your environment.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So, yeah, you know, while you mentioned that, so
it's like, you know, many timeswe see, let's say, for example,
if a boy let's just picture athree years old boy you know,
you know, took a fall, they willquickly say you're a boy, just
get up, correct, you know?
so, yeah, yeah brush it off,stop crying, boys don't cry,
(09:30):
boys don't cry, you don't havefeelings, you don't have
emotions.
But if it is a three years oldgirl, oh come, mommy, gonna let
me blow on it for you, so thatwill pass, so and they will love
it.
So that's, I totally agree withyou.
So it's like the way societyportray men.
You know that can play a majorrole into them.
You know, exhibiting orimplemented that behavior
(09:53):
correct, and a lot of the times.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
to individuals who meet these criterias, this
behavior has been beneficial tothem throughout their lifetime,
right, so them being grandioseis because it worked for them.
They were able to gainsomething that they wanted, and
so they've continued to adapt tothat behavior and utilize it to
their advantage, but it's alsoto the disadvantage of others.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So what is a covert of that behavior?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So, the covert.
Just so everybody understands.
Covert just means that it'svery underneath the surface, so
when it's covert it's not alwaysin your face.
So when someone is showing thecovert narcissism or
narcissistic personalitydisorder, they will be the type
of individual, for example, whowould say oh you know what?
I got an A on that test today,but I don't think mom would
(10:45):
really notice.
Test today, but I don't thinkmom would really notice.
They kind of say things thatare very underlying to something
that really they want praisefor, but they say a statement
following that would almostconfuse the other individual
who's receiving it.
So that's more covert.
And a lot of the times whenindividuals show covert signs of
(11:06):
this personality disorder, itcan be misconstrued as
depression.
Now, that's not to say that twoof those disorders cannot
coexist, because they cancoexist.
However, when you peel back andyou know persons if they choose
to be, like in therapy orthings of that nature and you
start to get to the root ofthings, you start to identify
that, oh, this is actually asign of covert.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And I can see where the coexistence of those two
depression and this personalityand personality disorder can
happen, because people withpersonality disorder, so they
tend to lack praise.
They like to be praised, theylike to be noticed, they like to
be validated at all time.
So it's like so when they don'thave that environment, they
(11:52):
don't have people around them topraise them, to validate the
way they expected them to do, sothey can fall into a serious
stage of depression.
Correct?
You know that's, you know soit's.
It's a serious problem.
So, except the only issuepeople tend to say you know, oh,
so-and-so has a, you know as aoh, he's narcissistic.
(12:15):
But you know that's not therole of anybody.
You know, not anybody have theright or the authority to
diagnose somebody Correct,unless you're a licensed
professional.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And that's why it's interesting, because this word,
especially within the last, Iwould say, five years, is so
common, and it's not to say thatan individual may not exhibit
narcissistic traits.
You may have that, um, and itis very toxic, because now we're
(12:51):
in a society that correlatestoxic behavior to narcissism.
Um, and it's not always thecase.
The person could just be a jerk, you know, and there's no
diagnosis for that right, so youalways have to be mindful.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Let the professionals and sometimes Jets like to be.
You know, they just like to beJets, that's just them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You know, and you can't fault people for being who
they are and who they presentto be, but an individual who
seriously suffers from thisdisorder would see that it
affects other areas of theirlives.
It isn't just going to be thatI don't like you and I'm going
to exploit you today and OK,that's just it.
No, that doesn't necessarilymean that the person has a
(13:40):
personality disorder.
You may think they do becauseyou're on the receiving end and
you can't make sense of it.
I mean, it's very difficult tonavigate but nonetheless, no,
you got to.
Sometimes the person just iswho they are and we have to
accept them as such.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Ms Foster.
So, like many other mentalhealth issues or personality
disorder, there are stages tothem.
So what are they?
So it's the same fornarcissistic personality
disorder.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So with narcissistic personality disorder.
There are stages.
So sometimes a person couldshow like mild cases of it right
, where they they show a fewsymptoms here and there.
They might still be functioningand in that aspect a
professional would then have todetermine is this the right
diagnosis for you?
And then you can go from likemild to severe, where it's
(14:30):
literally your life is goingdownhill.
At this point you have noability to maintain any
relationships in your life.
It actually affects your work,which can then affect your
livelihood, because if you can'tmaintain a job due to these
behaviors, that can createlong-term situations for you.
I would almost say too that itcan affect your health in one
(14:52):
way, shape or the other as well.
So, yeah, there are differentstages of it.
Very difficult to tell wheresomeone is and a lot of the
times the person may not evenacknowledge or know that they
have it unless there's an onsetissue that occurs.
May not even acknowledge orknow that they have it unless
there's an onset issue thatoccurs.
So, for example, if the personloses their job right, that is a
(15:15):
very big life-changing eventthat can then lead the
individual to seeing that okay,I'm showing these traits, or the
people around them notice thatonce this person lost their job,
the onset of the criterias arestarting to show more.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sometimes I've heard people saying anybody who is a
narcissist can be alsoantisocial.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
They often do say that and sometimes that
personality disorder can bemisconstrued for antisocial
personality disorder.
They can tend to isolate rightbecause of their behavior.
It causes them to not be ableto maintain relationships so
they may isolate.
Um, the isolation could also bebecause they want attention, so
(15:55):
they kind of isolate so thatpeople will gravitate to them
and and reinforce whateverthey're feeling or going through
at that time.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
But another thing that I want to point out.
So in order to be diagnosed asantisocial, you have to be, at
the age of 8 or 12, diagnosedwith conduct disorder.
So it's like you know, no, no,nobody, any under age cannot be
diagnosed with antisocialbehavior.
But if you were diagnosed bythe age of 8 or 12 with, you
(16:26):
know, conduct disorder, by thetime you're 18, that's when they
can actually diagnose you withantisocial behavior.
Yes, so it's like those are thethings that you know.
So we really want people tounderstand, because it's like
sometimes, you know, we may feelcomfortable just throwing water
out there, but you know,everything has to fall in place.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Correct and it has to make sense.
I will always tell everyone.
If you do have someone that youfeel is exhibiting some of
these criterias, have them meetwith a professional if they're
willing.
If they're not, you cannotforce them, because the person
has to be willing.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
My next question, ms Foster force them because the
person has to be willing.
My next question, Ms Fosternowadays, you know, social media
, you know, play a major role ineverything.
In everything, social media,you know, we can say if we want
to take that liberty, it's likeit's taking a toll on our kids.
So what role does social mediaplay in two narcissistics?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, it almost is like thegateway that allows you to be
grandiose, right, you can justpost all day, every day.
And I think there's also somany misconceptions about
narcissism on social media, um,that just you, I can't even
begin to explain it.
(17:54):
Social media it's not anegative thing, depending on how
you use it, um, but for someonewith a personality disorder as
this one, you can almost betthat social media will be like a
playground for them.
Right, they will posteverything and anything, and
it's because social media isonly giving you a snapshot,
(18:15):
right, of what's going on inthat person's life.
So there may be an individualwho they want to throw a gala,
right to raise money for, let'ssay, breast cancer awareness,
right October, just um, so theywant to raise awareness for that
instead of them just raisingfunds.
They do the gala because theywant to get the praise and the
(18:38):
admiration and the validationfor it.
And so now you go post it onsocial media and everybody's
like, wow, you look, this wasamazing event.
And and they just, it justcontinues to build on.
Literally it's not about thecause it's about you, it was
always about you, and it's sadbecause you would hope that the
person really does want to help,because part of them may want
(18:59):
to actually help.
However, the way they go aboutit, it all comes back to just
them.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Would you say.
There is a lot of ego too inthose who suffer with
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I would say so Very, very high ego, I would even say
super ego at this point and itjust becomes unhealthy, right,
because it's affecting the waythe person is functioning, it's
affecting the way that peoplesee them and it's just, it's
tough.
That's what makes personalitydisorders so difficult, even
when it comes to treating them.
(19:32):
It makes it so difficultbecause there isn't just one
thing that you can provide andsay, okay, and this is it.
It's not one form of therapy,there's not one medication that
you can provide.
So it's very, very difficultbecause you have to meet the
person where they're at.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
We don't know which version we'll get on whatever
day, so the language situationor cases like that.
So then, when will be the besttime you know to set the
boundaries?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh see, boundaries.
I think the minute as anindividual who might be dealing
with someone who exhibits thesecriterias, you have to know when
enough is enough for you, right?
So that varies.
There is no one-fit-allresponse when it comes to how to
set the boundaries.
I think the individual has toknow when they've kind of
(20:24):
reached a point where enough isenough.
And I need to set certainboundaries when it comes to this
individual, to not reinforce,to not feed into the ego, to not
feed into the exploitivebehavior, to not feed into the
admiration all the time it ittakes.
Time though it's, it's anongoing process.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
it has to be addressed on a base-by-case
situation Correct.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Because, I would say, each individual who presents
with this personality disorder.
There's not one way.
You know, someone can be verygrandiose and another person is
very exploitive, or, you know,the degree of the symptoms that
they present can vary.
However, that's why you have to, you know, do it on a case by
case basis, based on what you'reexhibiting.
(21:14):
You set the boundaries thatmeet that and then from there.
Once you set boundaries, thoughif the person violates those
boundaries you have to makeclear cut consequences for that,
whatever that may be.
If it's a relationship, itcould be that I'm stepping aside
from the relationship, but thatmay not be as easy.
(21:34):
If it's like a marriage of somesort, if it's an employer, that
person might have to face asuspension or a write-up, or
even as far as a termination,depending on how severe the
situation is.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And what about if it is a supervisor?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, wow, I'm very glad you said that.
So you know, unfortunately, indifferent careers, a lot of the
times leadership will exhibitsome of these traits.
Right, and I guess it comeswith the title per se.
(22:08):
You exhibit sometimes a leaderwho just always wants to take
credit for everything.
Even though it wasn't theiridea, they'll take credit.
They might exploit people ontheir way because their goal may
be to get to the next level,right, so they might have to
kind of talk bad about somepeople along their way.
They want to seek thevalidation because the
(22:29):
validation will get them totheir next goal of being able to
push up.
So that is very tough If you'redealing with a or keep that
other person.
You know, in a position becausethey see, yes, that's a threat
to you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So it's like hey, you know.
So it's more like a competitioninstead of working as a team.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Correct.
So it is very difficult whenyou're working with a supervisor
like that, and it's not alwaystrue that they had.
They may not have thepersonality disorder to say, but
they may just have some of thetraits.
So if you do have a supervisorlike that, I would first try to
address it with them in the mostprofessional way.
Address it with them in themost professional way because
(23:11):
with someone who exhibits thesecriterias, um, kind of telling
them about themselves, if Ishould say like that, may lead
to them being defensive, right,and so you end up hitting a wall
because you're not going to getanywhere.
You're telling the individualthis is how you're receiving the
information that they're givingyou, or, however, you know your
day-to-day interactions withthem and for them, they don't
see it at that.
Now, if that person doesn't seeit as that, how, where does this
(23:33):
conversation go?
Right, you kind of hit a wall.
Yeah, it doesn't go anywhere.
So at some point, what tends tohappen is, if the conversation
doesn't work, then you justwould have to utilize whatever's
available to you, whether it'sgoing up a chain of command,
whether it's you utilize a caresor some type of employee
services that may be there thatmay be able to assist you, but
(23:55):
you definitely need to addressit because that can create a
toxic work environment for sure,there is always a way to have
issues solved.
Correct, correct.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,correct.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
So my next question is likesometimes, you know, they say oh
, this person is the way she is,is the way he is, he or she
will never change.
You think people?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
with a narcissistic personality disorder can change.
I actually do believe that anindividual who exhibits this
disorder can change.
As we said, you know, multipletimes, the person has to be
willing, right, we cannot forceanybody to acknowledge that they
have any type of problem.
So if the person is willing andable and wants to put in the
work, I actually do believe thatchange can happen.
(24:49):
I really do, and I think itwould be important.
It would create a healthyenvironment for the individual.
They would actually be able tolive a more fulfilled life,
fulfilling life than what theymay see as fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And few of the traits you know they like.
Basically, learn behaviors, yes, so any behavior that we know.
You know that was learned, soif you work hard around it you
definitely can change it.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
But, again and again, you have to have the
willingness to address it inorder for it to change.
So let's say, for example so ifI'm a type of person who tend
to talk down to people, it's arunning behavior.
It's not something that I wasborn like that.
But hey, I have to get to apoint where, hey, beatrice, when
(25:40):
you talk that way to people, soit kind of like that's
attacking their emotionalbehavior.
You know so, and you cannot atall time try to put people down.
Correct, it's not right, it'snot fair, and you have to change
that.
So, in order for me to changethat, I have to see it as a
power, correct, you know, andthat's sometimes that's the
(26:03):
hardest part.
That is the hardest partBecause when we are the one
doing it, you know, and that'sthe biggest issue, when we are
the one doing it, it's not aproblem, right?
So it's only when somebody elseis doing it we quick to point
fingers at Exactly you know, soit's exactly it's.
(26:24):
It's it's difficult.
You also address the way thatyou know this behavior can be
exhibited in the workplace.
So my next question now so weaddress all the negative aspect
of it, is there any positiveaspect of that personality
disorder?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I actually think there is right.
So I would say, like, forsomeone who wants to go into
politics or wants to get into acareer where you kind of have to
sell yourself and convincepeople to maybe make a decision
of some sort, this having someof these traits will benefit you
, right?
So in politics, being grandiose, I have to talk about me all
(27:08):
the time.
I need to convince you as avoter why you should vote for me
, right?
So everything I will discusswill come come off as very
grandiose, or I might have totalk some negative points about
my opponent because, at thispoint so, you are the one who
knows, who knows it all exactly,and that's why I'm trying to
(27:30):
convince my voters, so I thinkyou would probably see it a lot
more in politics.
Um, even a salesperson, I needto convince you to get this car
right.
My goal is I need a sale, soI'm going to convince you to get
this car right.
My goal is I need a sale, soI'm going to convince you that
I'm the person other thaneverybody else who might be here
.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I'm the person for the job, but with all due
respect though.
So it's like you're gonna stillgonna respect my choices.
Oh, you know what?
So the one that you haveavailable is a black one or a
blue one, but I am seeking tobuy a white one.
True, but I still mightconvince you as much that you
want to sell your car, but youstill have to have respect for
(28:09):
my choice, because my favoritecolor, or my preference, is to
have a white car, not a blue oneor a black one.
Correct, so it's like you know.
So I think you know.
So we have to know how to playalong with it, not to not to
come out as being disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Correct, and that's what we want to make sure we do
Right.
Everybody wants to feelrespected and sometimes the
difficulty with this disorder isthat the person on the
receiving end doesn't feelrespected Right, Especially when
it comes to their feelings,that lack of empathy.
If I'm expressing my feelingsand I'm being vulnerable and the
individual is just not caringabout it, that's very hurtful
(28:49):
right to me as the person who'strying to express myself.
So that's all it comes down toBe respectful when you treat
people around you as such.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
does that, have you know, have an impact on your
children?
Because, as parents, we are allmothers, or we're supposed to
be all mothers.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I would say so right.
I would say that it does affectthe children, because children,
when they first learn, is byseeing right, so they will
imitate behavior.
So if we're saying that a lotof this behavior is learned,
then yes, it will affect yourchildren.
They would see it in thehousehold, they would see it
(29:33):
perhaps outside of the household, they may imitate it, thinking
that there's nothing wrong withit, and that can potentially
grow into.
You know that individualbecoming an adult that we
present with narcissisticpersonality disorder.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Is this disorder, can you know?
Can also be genetic.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I would say partly yes, yes, yes, yes, because if
there's a history of it in thefamily, it doesn't necessarily
mean that you will definitelyhave it.
However, I do believe thatthere is a genetic component to
it as well, absolutely okay,absolutely that's very important
.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
So I think now we're gonna wrap up, so what's your
last thought on that?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
um.
So my last thoughts about thisis um, anyone who might be
dealing or thinks that they'redealing with someone who might
have this personality disorder.
It is very difficult.
I empathize with you.
See if you can get thatindividual help if they're
willing.
If they are not willing, Ithink it's important for you as
(30:35):
an individual to know what yourboundaries are.
And it is okay.
If it's like a romanticrelationship, it is okay to walk
away.
If it's a romantic relationship, it is okay to walk away.
If it's a work relationship, itis okay to walk away, because
sometimes the person who'sdealing with it may feel bad for
making a decision that benefitsthem, but in the long run, your
(30:57):
mental health is important,right, and can be affected by
this, this.
So, yes, you may love theindividual, you may love your
line of work, but if thesituation no longer serves you
sometimes it's okay to walk awayokay, so like many other
personality disorders, so theyhave treatment available for
(31:17):
them.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Is there any treatment available for
narcissistic disorderpersonality?
There are.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So there's different forms of therapy that an
individual can take.
So there's cognitive behavioraltherapy, there's psychodynamic
therapy and just all other sortsof therapy as well.
There are some medications.
A lot of the times you'll seeindividuals might be given
antidepressants for it, becausethat that can help kind of calm
(31:43):
some of the symptoms.
But yeah, you just have to workwith your whoever's your
provider, your treatmentprovider, work with them to see
what's the best treatment optionfor you yeah, because it's like
you know the same as manyothers.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
They are levels.
You know toy.
So it depends off you know so,whether that you know you're
dealing with it on a mild orsevere or moderate level.
So, based on that, so yourhealth care provider or your
psychiatrist whomever that youmay have as the professional
provider, will know exactlywhich way to guide you.
(32:17):
So, basically, so it's based onwhat you just shared with us.
So it's not narcissisticpersonality disorders, though
there are some negative effector impact about it, but there
are also some positive impactabout it.
So it's okay to love myself.
It's okay, you know, to embracemyself, because at the end of
(32:39):
the day, if I talk about myself,you know like somebody hey, I
love Beatrice.
You know so, because if I don'tlove Beatrice, nobody else will
.
And even if somebody oreverybody will try to love
Beatrice, but if Beatricedoesn't love herself, she will
not embrace or will not know howto appreciate the love coming
(33:00):
from others.
So it's okay to love yourself,it's okay to accomplish things
in life, because that's whatlife is about.
So we have to fight, we have towork, we have to make sure that
you know.
So, hey, we gravitate to thehigher and higher, but at the
same time be considerate yes.
Don't let it be at the expenseof others consider it, yes,
(33:26):
don't let it be at the expenseof others.
So, before we leave.
So is there any resources thatyou want?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
to share with us.
So I know there's several books.
There's a lot of people thathave books out in regards to
narcissism.
If you go on YouTube, there's alot of psychologists who talk
about this because this is sucha big topic.
So we have the Narcissist youKnow by Joseph Bergo.
We have Rethinking Narcissismby Craig Malkin.
(33:51):
These are our books that youguys can look into.
The National Institute ofMental Health you can go on
their website and look up moreinformation and just do a lot of
research for yourself.
Use this as a guide, right, butthen do your own research and
yourself, get some books andeven maybe get a book for
someone you may know and alsowhen you look at the video on
(34:14):
YouTube or whom whomever may belistening or watching it.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I know those who are listening cannot address, you
know, the resources that MsPoston just shared with you, but
I'm also going to attach thatinto the comment section for
those who didn't have a chanceto write it down, or what have
you.
So again, it was a pleasure tohave you, darling.
(34:38):
Thank you, looking beautiful asalways.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, ma''am.
I learned from you, you know,and you don't have a
narcissistic personality.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
On that note I'll let you go.
It was with you, dr.
Beatrice, with your world.
Hello everyone, I'm Dr Beatrice Ippolit, and this is
your World.
Today, we have with us aspecial guest.
She's a social worker.
She's been in the field forover 10 years and her name is
(00:24):
Miss Deborah Fuston.
Hello, hello, how are you?
How are you doing, darling?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm good.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
How are you so good?
I was traffic, I was commute.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It was okay.
There was some traffic, but Icouldn't understand why there
was no accidents or anything butby the grace of God, I made it
here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
You know that I'm very delighted to have you today
.
I know you came from very farto make it, so it's a well
appreciated moment for us, thankyou.
Thank you so much.
Today we're gonna talk aboutsomething very particular, yes,
something that you know.
People tend to.
They use the word, but I don'tthink too many people really
know or understand the meaningof it.
We're going to talk aboutnarcissistic personality
(01:12):
disorder.
So you have the mic.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, hello everyone.
So, yes, we're going to talkabout narcissistic personality
disorder.
Oftentimes in today's world,you hear the word narcissism
being thrown out all the time,right?
Somebody does something wedon't like.
Oh, they're narcissistic.
The definition of a person whohas narcissistic personality
disorder is someone who has,like, an elevated personality,
(01:39):
right?
So they're very grandiose inthe way that they approach.
It's always about them.
They can be very arrogant.
They do require some type ofvalidation when it comes to the
way they present themselves.
It can be very manipulative, ina sort of way.
And in addition to that, thereare seven characteristics, and
(02:00):
out of those characteristics,you have to actually meet five
per the DSM-5, right?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So you have to meet at least five, but it can be
more as well.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Correct, it definitely can be more
characteristics.
Now, the issue that comes withthis is I just want to be clear
that someone who portrayscriteria may not necessarily be
diagnosed with a disorder, maynot necessarily be diagnosed
with a disorder.
(02:27):
This disorder often isn'tdiagnosed because one of the
criteria and importance of it isthat the person actually has to
acknowledge that it's a problemand that it's affecting
different areas in their life,so it has to affect their
occupation, their otherrelationships or somewhere
outside of just themselves.
Right, it can't just be thatthe person is interacting in a
certain way with one individual.
It has to be with multiple.
(02:47):
So this is the uh, thedifference and the most.
There must be a pattern, as well, there also has to be a pattern
of behavior.
It has to be consistentthroughout, so it's not just a
one day thing, a one month thing.
This is literally consistentlythe way that the person presents
, and a lot of the times theymay not even actually know that
(03:10):
they're presenting as such.
That is ridiculous, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (03:15):
In that way.
So what is the difference, then, between narcissistic and
self-confidence?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So with self-confidence, right?
Someone can be veryself-confident and not boast
about it, right?
So we can both be sitting here.
We are both well-educated women.
We're confident in who we are,but we're not boastful about it.
We don't make it our duty tolet everybody know hey, I'm Ms
Faustina, I'm very confident inwho I am and I don't have to
(03:44):
talk about it every day, right?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You kind of see it in my actions, and every time that
you speak to somebody you haveto flash your degree out Exactly
, or you know.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I've been a social worker you know for over 10 or
what have you, so it's like youknow.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I have my license, I'm this, I'm that, but at the
end of the day, so you, you, youdon't.
You tend to be very humble.
God bless you with theprivilege of having some higher
education, but you understand itjust, you know.
For that, you use thateducation to better your life,
(04:18):
to improve your life, but not toput others down Correct.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So I'm not going to be exploitive of others because
of the education that I have,right, I'm not going to utilize
that self-confidence to seekvalidation from anybody.
However, an individual whopresents as narcissistic, they
would be very boastful about it.
So everything that they do,they have to let you know about
it.
They have to tell you hey,listen, look, I have this degree
(04:45):
.
Hey, listen, look my job, Imake this salary.
Hey, listen, look, look what Ijust did for this homeless
person here.
And they might actually evenpost about it all the time,
because you know we're living ina time of social media, so
everybody is always postingabout things.
Someone who may present asnarcissistic does that.
Look, girl, I just have a ginwagon, exactly exactly.
(05:08):
And don't get us wrong, we'renot saying that being boastful
is wrong, but there areboundaries that come with it and
someone who has narcissisticpersonality disorder doesn't
necessarily see the boundaries.
They don't see a necessity forit because they don't see a
problem with it.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, so exactly In order for you to necessity for
it because they don't see aproblem with it.
Yeah, so exactly.
Another for you to identify aproblem as a problem, you have
to know that it's a problem.
If you don't know, you don'tidentify it as a problem.
So you think that it's okay tojust walk around and talk down
to people you know mistreatedothers, you know be exploitive
(05:43):
others.
So it's like those are reallysome serious characteristic
traits of the issue Correct andthey also lack empathy, right.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So they do it like you said and they just don't
really care about it, or maybethey might have an ounce of
remorse, but don't expect it tolast too long.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So if you were to list out, like the common traits
so, what that will be, so thecommon traits?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
the first one is the grandiosity.
So that's the main one thatpeople tend to see.
That's when the person is veryboastful, that's where you know
people kind of mix it up withself-confidence.
There's that one.
Lack of empathy is also a verybig thing as well.
Do not expect a person who hasthis personality disorder to
(06:27):
have empathy for you when itcomes to that emotional section
or an emotional aspect of theirlife.
Don't expect it.
They're really not going toshow any empathy at all.
So you.
Basically, you will see likethey they present themselves as
as in human, but sometimes itcan come off that way, so the
person on the receiving end itcan very much come off that way
(06:50):
where they might do somethingwrong that offends you and they
just they don't see why you'reoffended by it, so they don't
offer any apology or anything ofthe sort.
Another commonality, too, isthe sense of entitlement, right.
So it's this idea that Ideserve this, because, look at
me, I'm a great person, I havethis degree, I deserve this
(07:12):
level of job, and oftentimesthat is partnered with not being
able to accept criticism.
So there's that commonality.
And then also, too, the otherthing that oftentimes people
overlook but it is common is theneed for validation and praise,
and they feed off of that, theystrive off of that.
Without that, that can almostaffect the way that that
(07:35):
individual functions in theirday to day.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And the exploitative mentality towards that tends.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It's a major component toward that issue
correct, so they can often beexpletive to other people.
So, um, because there's also arage component that comes with,
uh, this personality disorder aswell, but it's just constantly
just being treating peopleunfairly, talking down about
people, um, because for themthey are the great and there is
(08:03):
no other better and you know onething.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So it's like some people may think that, oh, you
know what?
It's not too many people, youknow.
I understand it's a personalitydisorder, but not too many
people suffer from that disorder.
But you'll be surprised ourresearch indicated that 6.2
percent of the population sufferwith narcissistic personality
disorder.
So it's very serious.
(08:27):
It is very and, and you know,for whatever reason.
So it's more prevalent in mencompared to women.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes, yes, which is interesting, sorry, men, but
unfortunately I do.
I do believe that that may bedue to societal norms.
Society does not necessarilypreach for men to be emotional,
to be vulnerable, to showremorse, right, you're supposed
to kind of have this tough, meandemeanor and so, with that,
(08:58):
sometimes you learn thisbehavior from childhood, right,
because this is a personalitydisorder that can be learned
from your environment.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So, yeah, you know, while you mentioned that, so
it's like, you know, many timeswe see, let's say, for example,
if a boy let's just picture athree years old boy you know,
you know, took a fall, they willquickly say you're a boy, just
get up, correct, you know?
so, yeah, yeah brush it off,stop crying, boys don't cry,
(09:30):
boys don't cry, you don't havefeelings, you don't have
emotions.
But if it is a three years oldgirl, oh come, mommy, gonna let
me blow on it for you, so thatwill pass, so and they will love
it.
So that's, I totally agree withyou.
So it's like the way societyportray men.
You know that can play a majorrole into them.
You know, exhibiting orimplemented that behavior
(09:53):
correct, and a lot of the times.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
to individuals who meet these criterias, this
behavior has been beneficial tothem throughout their lifetime,
right, so them being grandioseis because it worked for them.
They were able to gainsomething that they wanted, and
so they've continued to adapt tothat behavior and utilize it to
their advantage, but it's alsoto the disadvantage of others.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So what is a covert of that behavior?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So, the covert.
Just so everybody understands.
Covert just means that it'svery underneath the surface, so
when it's covert it's not alwaysin your face.
So when someone is showing thecovert narcissism or
narcissistic personalitydisorder, they will be the type
of individual, for example, whowould say oh you know what?
I got an A on that test today,but I don't think mom would
(10:45):
really notice.
Test today, but I don't thinkmom would really notice.
They kind of say things thatare very underlying to something
that really they want praisefor, but they say a statement
following that would almostconfuse the other individual
who's receiving it.
So that's more covert.
And a lot of the times whenindividuals show covert signs of
(11:06):
this personality disorder, itcan be misconstrued as
depression.
Now, that's not to say that twoof those disorders cannot
coexist, because they cancoexist.
However, when you peel back andyou know persons if they choose
to be, like in therapy orthings of that nature and you
start to get to the root ofthings, you start to identify
that, oh, this is actually asign of covert.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And I can see where the coexistence of those two
depression and this personalityand personality disorder can
happen, because people withpersonality disorder, so they
tend to lack praise.
They like to be praised, theylike to be noticed, they like to
be validated at all time.
So it's like so when they don'thave that environment, they
(11:52):
don't have people around them topraise them, to validate the
way they expected them to do, sothey can fall into a serious
stage of depression.
Correct?
You know that's, you know soit's.
It's a serious problem.
So, except the only issuepeople tend to say you know, oh,
so-and-so has a, you know as aoh, he's narcissistic.
(12:15):
But you know that's not therole of anybody.
You know, not anybody have theright or the authority to
diagnose somebody Correct,unless you're a licensed
professional.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And that's why it's interesting, because this word,
especially within the last, Iwould say, five years, is so
common, and it's not to say thatan individual may not exhibit
narcissistic traits.
You may have that, um, and itis very toxic, because now we're
(12:51):
in a society that correlatestoxic behavior to narcissism.
Um, and it's not always thecase.
The person could just be a jerk, you know, and there's no
diagnosis for that right, so youalways have to be mindful.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Let the professionals and sometimes Jets like to be.
You know, they just like to beJets, that's just them.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You know, and you can't fault people for being who
they are and who they presentto be, but an individual who
seriously suffers from thisdisorder would see that it
affects other areas of theirlives.
It isn't just going to be thatI don't like you and I'm going
to exploit you today and OK,that's just it.
No, that doesn't necessarilymean that the person has a
(13:40):
personality disorder.
You may think they do becauseyou're on the receiving end and
you can't make sense of it.
I mean, it's very difficult tonavigate but nonetheless, no,
you got to.
Sometimes the person just iswho they are and we have to
accept them as such.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Ms Foster.
So, like many other mentalhealth issues or personality
disorder, there are stages tothem.
So what are they?
So it's the same fornarcissistic personality
disorder.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
So with narcissistic personality disorder.
There are stages.
So sometimes a person couldshow like mild cases of it right
, where they they show a fewsymptoms here and there.
They might still be functioningand in that aspect a
professional would then have todetermine is this the right
diagnosis for you?
And then you can go from likemild to severe, where it's
(14:30):
literally your life is goingdownhill.
At this point you have noability to maintain any
relationships in your life.
It actually affects your work,which can then affect your
livelihood, because if you can'tmaintain a job due to these
behaviors, that can createlong-term situations for you.
I would almost say too that itcan affect your health in one
(14:52):
way, shape or the other as well.
So, yeah, there are differentstages of it.
Very difficult to tell wheresomeone is and a lot of the
times the person may not evenacknowledge or know that they
have it unless there's an onsetissue that occurs.
May not even acknowledge orknow that they have it unless
there's an onset issue thatoccurs.
So, for example, if the personloses their job right, that is a
(15:15):
very big life-changing eventthat can then lead the
individual to seeing that okay,I'm showing these traits, or the
people around them notice thatonce this person lost their job,
the onset of the criterias arestarting to show more.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Sometimes I've heard people saying anybody who is a
narcissist can be alsoantisocial.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
They often do say that and sometimes that
personality disorder can bemisconstrued for antisocial
personality disorder.
They can tend to isolate rightbecause of their behavior.
It causes them to not be ableto maintain relationships so
they may isolate.
Um, the isolation could also bebecause they want attention, so
(15:55):
they kind of isolate so thatpeople will gravitate to them
and and reinforce whateverthey're feeling or going through
at that time.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
But another thing that I want to point out.
So in order to be diagnosed asantisocial, you have to be, at
the age of 8 or 12, diagnosedwith conduct disorder.
So it's like you know, no, no,nobody, any under age cannot be
diagnosed with antisocialbehavior.
But if you were diagnosed bythe age of 8 or 12 with, you
(16:26):
know, conduct disorder, by thetime you're 18, that's when they
can actually diagnose you withantisocial behavior.
Yes, so it's like those are thethings that you know.
So we really want people tounderstand, because it's like
sometimes, you know, we may feelcomfortable just throwing water
out there, but you know,everything has to fall in place.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Correct and it has to make sense.
I will always tell everyone.
If you do have someone that youfeel is exhibiting some of
these criterias, have them meetwith a professional if they're
willing.
If they're not, you cannotforce them, because the person
has to be willing.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
My next question, ms Foster force them because the
person has to be willing.
My next question, Ms Fosternowadays, you know, social media
, you know, play a major role ineverything.
In everything, social media,you know, we can say if we want
to take that liberty, it's likeit's taking a toll on our kids.
So what role does social mediaplay in two narcissistics?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, it almost is like thegateway that allows you to be
grandiose, right, you can justpost all day, every day.
And I think there's also somany misconceptions about
narcissism on social media, um,that just you, I can't even
begin to explain it.
(17:54):
Social media it's not anegative thing, depending on how
you use it, um, but for someonewith a personality disorder as
this one, you can almost betthat social media will be like a
playground for them.
Right, they will posteverything and anything, and
it's because social media isonly giving you a snapshot,
(18:15):
right, of what's going on inthat person's life.
So there may be an individualwho they want to throw a gala,
right to raise money for, let'ssay, breast cancer awareness,
right October, just um, so theywant to raise awareness for that
instead of them just raisingfunds.
They do the gala because theywant to get the praise and the
(18:38):
admiration and the validationfor it.
And so now you go post it onsocial media and everybody's
like, wow, you look, this wasamazing event.
And and they just, it justcontinues to build on.
Literally it's not about thecause it's about you, it was
always about you, and it's sadbecause you would hope that the
person really does want to help,because part of them may want
(18:59):
to actually help.
However, the way they go aboutit, it all comes back to just
them.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Would you say.
There is a lot of ego too inthose who suffer with
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I would say so Very, very high ego, I would even say
super ego at this point and itjust becomes unhealthy, right,
because it's affecting the waythe person is functioning, it's
affecting the way that peoplesee them and it's just, it's
tough.
That's what makes personalitydisorders so difficult, even
when it comes to treating them.
(19:32):
It makes it so difficultbecause there isn't just one
thing that you can provide andsay, okay, and this is it.
It's not one form of therapy,there's not one medication that
you can provide.
So it's very, very difficultbecause you have to meet the
person where they're at.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
We don't know which version we'll get on whatever
day, so the language situationor cases like that.
So then, when will be the besttime you know to set the
boundaries?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh see, boundaries.
I think the minute as anindividual who might be dealing
with someone who exhibits thesecriterias, you have to know when
enough is enough for you, right?
So that varies.
There is no one-fit-allresponse when it comes to how to
set the boundaries.
I think the individual has toknow when they've kind of
(20:24):
reached a point where enough isenough.
And I need to set certainboundaries when it comes to this
individual, to not reinforce,to not feed into the ego, to not
feed into the exploitivebehavior, to not feed into the
admiration all the time it ittakes.
Time though it's, it's anongoing process.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
it has to be addressed on a base-by-case
situation Correct.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Because, I would say, each individual who presents
with this personality disorder.
There's not one way.
You know, someone can be verygrandiose and another person is
very exploitive, or, you know,the degree of the symptoms that
they present can vary.
However, that's why you have to, you know, do it on a case by
case basis, based on what you'reexhibiting.
(21:14):
You set the boundaries thatmeet that and then from there.
Once you set boundaries, thoughif the person violates those
boundaries you have to makeclear cut consequences for that,
whatever that may be.
If it's a relationship, itcould be that I'm stepping aside
from the relationship, but thatmay not be as easy.
(21:34):
If it's like a marriage of somesort, if it's an employer, that
person might have to face asuspension or a write-up, or
even as far as a termination,depending on how severe the
situation is.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And what about if it is a supervisor?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Oh, wow, I'm very glad you said that.
So you know, unfortunately, indifferent careers, a lot of the
times leadership will exhibitsome of these traits.
Right, and I guess it comeswith the title per se.
(22:08):
You exhibit sometimes a leaderwho just always wants to take
credit for everything.
Even though it wasn't theiridea, they'll take credit.
They might exploit people ontheir way because their goal may
be to get to the next level,right, so they might have to
kind of talk bad about somepeople along their way.
They want to seek thevalidation because the
(22:29):
validation will get them totheir next goal of being able to
push up.
So that is very tough If you'redealing with a or keep that
other person.
You know, in a position becausethey see, yes, that's a threat
to you.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
So it's like hey, you know.
So it's more like a competitioninstead of working as a team.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Correct.
So it is very difficult whenyou're working with a supervisor
like that, and it's not alwaystrue that they had.
They may not have thepersonality disorder to say, but
they may just have some of thetraits.
So if you do have a supervisorlike that, I would first try to
address it with them in the mostprofessional way.
Address it with them in themost professional way because
(23:11):
with someone who exhibits thesecriterias, um, kind of telling
them about themselves, if Ishould say like that, may lead
to them being defensive, right,and so you end up hitting a wall
because you're not going to getanywhere.
You're telling the individualthis is how you're receiving the
information that they're givingyou, or, however, you know your
day-to-day interactions withthem and for them, they don't
see it at that.
Now, if that person doesn't seeit as that, how, where does this
(23:33):
conversation go?
Right, you kind of hit a wall.
Yeah, it doesn't go anywhere.
So at some point, what tends tohappen is, if the conversation
doesn't work, then you justwould have to utilize whatever's
available to you, whether it'sgoing up a chain of command,
whether it's you utilize a caresor some type of employee
services that may be there thatmay be able to assist you, but
(23:55):
you definitely need to addressit because that can create a
toxic work environment for sure,there is always a way to have
issues solved.
Correct, correct.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,correct.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
So my next question is likesometimes, you know, they say oh
, this person is the way she is,is the way he is, he or she
will never change.
You think people?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
with a narcissistic personality disorder can change.
I actually do believe that anindividual who exhibits this
disorder can change.
As we said, you know, multipletimes, the person has to be
willing, right, we cannot forceanybody to acknowledge that they
have any type of problem.
So if the person is willing andable and wants to put in the
work, I actually do believe thatchange can happen.
(24:49):
I really do, and I think itwould be important.
It would create a healthyenvironment for the individual.
They would actually be able tolive a more fulfilled life,
fulfilling life than what theymay see as fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And few of the traits you know they like.
Basically, learn behaviors, yes, so any behavior that we know.
You know that was learned, soif you work hard around it you
definitely can change it.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
But, again and again, you have to have the
willingness to address it inorder for it to change.
So let's say, for example so ifI'm a type of person who tend
to talk down to people, it's arunning behavior.
It's not something that I wasborn like that.
But hey, I have to get to apoint where, hey, beatrice, when
(25:40):
you talk that way to people, soit kind of like that's
attacking their emotionalbehavior.
You know so, and you cannot atall time try to put people down.
Correct, it's not right, it'snot fair, and you have to change
that.
So, in order for me to changethat, I have to see it as a
power, correct, you know, andthat's sometimes that's the
(26:03):
hardest part.
That is the hardest partBecause when we are the one
doing it, you know, and that'sthe biggest issue, when we are
the one doing it, it's not aproblem, right?
So it's only when somebody elseis doing it we quick to point
fingers at Exactly you know, soit's exactly it's.
(26:24):
It's it's difficult.
You also address the way thatyou know this behavior can be
exhibited in the workplace.
So my next question now so weaddress all the negative aspect
of it, is there any positiveaspect of that personality
disorder?
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I actually think there is right.
So I would say, like, forsomeone who wants to go into
politics or wants to get into acareer where you kind of have to
sell yourself and convincepeople to maybe make a decision
of some sort, this having someof these traits will benefit you
, right?
So in politics, being grandiose, I have to talk about me all
(27:08):
the time.
I need to convince you as avoter why you should vote for me
, right?
So everything I will discusswill come come off as very
grandiose, or I might have totalk some negative points about
my opponent because, at thispoint so, you are the one who
knows, who knows it all exactly,and that's why I'm trying to
(27:30):
convince my voters, so I thinkyou would probably see it a lot
more in politics.
Um, even a salesperson, I needto convince you to get this car
right.
My goal is I need a sale, soI'm going to convince you to get
this car right.
My goal is I need a sale, soI'm going to convince you that
I'm the person other thaneverybody else who might be here
.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I'm the person for the job, but with all due
respect though.
So it's like you're gonna stillgonna respect my choices.
Oh, you know what?
So the one that you haveavailable is a black one or a
blue one, but I am seeking tobuy a white one.
True, but I still mightconvince you as much that you
want to sell your car, but youstill have to have respect for
(28:09):
my choice, because my favoritecolor, or my preference, is to
have a white car, not a blue oneor a black one.
Correct, so it's like you know.
So I think you know.
So we have to know how to playalong with it, not to not to
come out as being disrespectful.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Correct, and that's what we want to make sure we do
Right.
Everybody wants to feelrespected and sometimes the
difficulty with this disorder isthat the person on the
receiving end doesn't feelrespected Right, Especially when
it comes to their feelings,that lack of empathy.
If I'm expressing my feelingsand I'm being vulnerable and the
individual is just not caringabout it, that's very hurtful
(28:49):
right to me as the person who'strying to express myself.
So that's all it comes down toBe respectful when you treat
people around you as such.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
does that, have you know, have an impact on your
children?
Because, as parents, we are allmothers, or we're supposed to
be all mothers.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
So I would say so right.
I would say that it does affectthe children, because children,
when they first learn, is byseeing right, so they will
imitate behavior.
So if we're saying that a lotof this behavior is learned,
then yes, it will affect yourchildren.
They would see it in thehousehold, they would see it
(29:33):
perhaps outside of the household, they may imitate it, thinking
that there's nothing wrong withit, and that can potentially
grow into.
You know that individualbecoming an adult that we
present with narcissisticpersonality disorder.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Is this disorder, can you know?
Can also be genetic.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I would say partly yes, yes, yes, yes, because if
there's a history of it in thefamily, it doesn't necessarily
mean that you will definitelyhave it.
However, I do believe thatthere is a genetic component to
it as well, absolutely okay,absolutely that's very important
.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
So I think now we're gonna wrap up, so what's your
last thought on that?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
um.
So my last thoughts about thisis um, anyone who might be
dealing or thinks that they'redealing with someone who might
have this personality disorder.
It is very difficult.
I empathize with you.
See if you can get thatindividual help if they're
willing.
If they are not willing, Ithink it's important for you as
(30:35):
an individual to know what yourboundaries are.
And it is okay.
If it's like a romanticrelationship, it is okay to walk
away.
If it's a romantic relationship, it is okay to walk away.
If it's a work relationship, itis okay to walk away, because
sometimes the person who'sdealing with it may feel bad for
making a decision that benefitsthem, but in the long run, your
(30:57):
mental health is important,right, and can be affected by
this, this.
So, yes, you may love theindividual, you may love your
line of work, but if thesituation no longer serves you
sometimes it's okay to walk awayokay, so like many other
personality disorders, so theyhave treatment available for
(31:17):
them.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Is there any treatment available for
narcissistic disorderpersonality?
There are.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So there's different forms of therapy that an
individual can take.
So there's cognitive behavioraltherapy, there's psychodynamic
therapy and just all other sortsof therapy as well.
There are some medications.
A lot of the times you'll seeindividuals might be given
antidepressants for it, becausethat that can help kind of calm
(31:43):
some of the symptoms.
But yeah, you just have to workwith your whoever's your
provider, your treatmentprovider, work with them to see
what's the best treatment optionfor you yeah, because it's like
you know the same as manyothers.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
They are levels.
You know toy.
So it depends off you know so,whether that you know you're
dealing with it on a mild orsevere or moderate level.
So, based on that, so yourhealth care provider or your
psychiatrist whomever that youmay have as the professional
provider, will know exactlywhich way to guide you.
(32:17):
So, basically, so it's based onwhat you just shared with us.
So it's not narcissisticpersonality disorders, though
there are some negative effector impact about it, but there
are also some positive impactabout it.
So it's okay to love myself.
It's okay, you know, to embracemyself, because at the end of
(32:39):
the day, if I talk about myself,you know like somebody hey, I
love Beatrice.
You know so, because if I don'tlove Beatrice, nobody else will
.
And even if somebody oreverybody will try to love
Beatrice, but if Beatricedoesn't love herself, she will
not embrace or will not know howto appreciate the love coming
(33:00):
from others.
So it's okay to love yourself,it's okay to accomplish things
in life, because that's whatlife is about.
So we have to fight, we have towork, we have to make sure that
you know.
So, hey, we gravitate to thehigher and higher, but at the
same time be considerate yes.
Don't let it be at the expenseof others consider it, yes,
(33:26):
don't let it be at the expenseof others.
So, before we leave.
So is there any resources thatyou want?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
to share with us.
So I know there's several books.
There's a lot of people thathave books out in regards to
narcissism.
If you go on YouTube, there's alot of psychologists who talk
about this because this is sucha big topic.
So we have the Narcissist youKnow by Joseph Bergo.
We have Rethinking Narcissismby Craig Malkin.
(33:51):
These are our books that youguys can look into.
The National Institute ofMental Health you can go on
their website and look up moreinformation and just do a lot of
research for yourself.
Use this as a guide, right, butthen do your own research and
yourself, get some books andeven maybe get a book for
someone you may know and alsowhen you look at the video on
(34:14):
YouTube or whom whomever may belistening or watching it.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I know those who are listening cannot address, you
know, the resources that MsPoston just shared with you, but
I'm also going to attach thatinto the comment section for
those who didn't have a chanceto write it down, or what have
you.
So again, it was a pleasure tohave you, darling.
(34:38):
Thank you, looking beautiful asalways.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Thank you, ma''am.
I learned from you, you know,and you don't have a
narcissistic personality.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
On that note I'll let you go.
It was with you, dr.
Beatrice, with your world.
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