Unmasking Narcissism

Shame lurks beneath the surface of narcissistic behaviors, creating destructive patterns that devastate relationships and emotional wellbeing. In this illuminating conversation, Andrau Charles reveals the psychological mechanisms connecting vulnerability, shame, and narcissistic rage through the lens of depth psychology.

When hidden vulnerabilities are exposed, narcissistic personalities often react with disproportionate fury—not merely anger, but an existential drive to eliminate whoever revealed their disavowed parts. "It's as if to say, 'Why are you showing me this part of myself that I disavow? How dare you do this to me?'" explains  Charles. This reaction stems from profound developmental wounds, leaving individuals emotionally trapped at earlier life stages despite their adult bodies.

The therapeutic journey requires extraordinary compassion paired with unflinching honesty.  Charles emphasizes that beneath narcissistic defenses lies not an adult but "a child that's wounded, scared, fragmented" seeking healing and integration. Through dream analysis—which bypasses ego defenses to reveal unfiltered truth—therapists can access deeper insights and potential solutions hidden within the unconscious mind.

For those grappling with these patterns or supporting someone who exhibits them, understanding the developmental origins creates pathways toward healing. The conversation explores both the challenges and rewards of depth psychological approaches, which offer transformative benefits: truth without judgment, appropriate emotional holding, and models for authentic relationships that extend beyond the therapy room into everyday life.

You can connect with Andreau  Charles at Ariel Counseling and Wellness by calling 917-905-4563 or emailing [e-mail] to explore whether his approach might support your journey toward wholeness and more fulfilling relationships.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
I'm Dr Beatrice Ippolit andthis is your World.
Can you discuss the ways inwhich unconscious shame or

(00:21):
vulnerability may contribute tonarcissistic behaviors?

Speaker 2 (00:27):
That's quite common and prevalent.
In some ways, when a personfeels that this thing, that
they're split off fromthemselves and they can't
tolerate, that's in the shadowand it makes them vulnerable and
weak.
If it's brought to them, shownto them, given to them, if

(00:48):
they're exposed in a certain way, they may get into a
narcissistic rage and they maywant to destroy whoever shamed
them.
If it's an individual, or ifit's an entity, an organization
or so on, they would want todestroy that person in acting

(01:10):
out a narcissistic rage becauseso, in a way, they will be very
vindictive they'll be could beviolent and vindictive.
Vindictive, violent, uh vengeful.
It's as if to say for them whyare you showing me this?
Why are you showing me thispart of myself that I disavow?
How dare you do this to me?

(01:33):
I must destroy you, because thenarcissist operates at a place
where he doesn't care for yourhumanity.
He doesn't care for the fact ifyou have responsibilities or if
you have emotions, or so on.
It is a lack of empathy, right?

(01:55):
So he would want to destroy youTo him or her?

Speaker 1 (01:57):
you don't even exist.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Him or her?

Speaker 1 (01:59):
You don't even exist.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Whomever the person is right, they would want to
destroy you if theirvulnerability and shame is
exposed.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yes, For those type of people, whether that you drop
dead, you know, or what haveyou, that would not be of any
concern to them.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
No, it wouldn't be a concern to them.
I give that example of theperson with the split off part
of themselves right, thatshame-filled part of themselves.
Now they were able to reclaimit right and to take back
ownership of that part Becausethey were given the space to do
so and they had the emotionalstrength right to tolerate the

(02:41):
reflection that was given tothem.
So part of the work is to helpthe individual to see that it's
okay to be vulnerable.
It's okay that you had this.
It's terrifying, it'shorrendous and so forth, but you
did not die right.

(03:03):
You did not die, you survivedit, and so that part makes it
okay in a sense.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Andrew, would you say that it will be very
challenging to work with thosepeople Because, at the end of
the day, you cannot work withthem?
You have to work for them,because everything will be about
them and whatever that you do,have to be around them.
If you try to deviate yourselffrom what they want from you,

(03:32):
then you will become an enemy.
Am I right?

Speaker 2 (03:35):
In part of the work dealing with patients.
Yes, I become the enemy for thepatient in many ways, and some
of it has to do with projectionright or transference.
They transfer certain type ofobjects onto me and I have to
hold it and to hold theiranimosity and anger and rage and
all those things.
I am trained to hold that andat the right moment in time I

(03:59):
give it back because it doesn'tbelong to me.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
right, they're giving me to hold and then I give it
back but you will make sure thatyou know the right time to give
it.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes yes, as we were saying before, you know the
clients, knowing where theperson is at, and so on, so you
give it back or just hold ituntil such time where they come
and they want to collect it.
They want, want to take it backfrom you Now, someone who is a
vulnerable narcissist, someonewho is a perpetual victim, who

(04:36):
could never do anything rightand so forth, who comes to
therapy and wants the therapistto side with them to align with
that part of their pathology,right, that can be successful if
the therapist is not skillfuland aware.
However, when it comes to mywork with patients, okay, let's

(05:01):
look at this together.
And when I say let's look atthis together, I'm say let's
look at this together.
I'm looking at, I'm looking atyou and looking at that and
holding it and also showing itto you.
Showing it to you in a way thatis tender so that you can look
at it with me together and don'tfeel that you are being judged

(05:24):
and not to feel that you'rebeing judged in the moment right
, but you're being supported.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
The point is to get you out of that place of
victimization, because where isthe real power there for your
life and your agency if you areusing your victimhood to
manipulate, to control and to bea narcissistic personality?

(05:51):
This comes back to what we'retalking about in terms of
healthy relationships andrelating to others.
You're not going to be able todo so if you're stuck in that
place.
So my role is to help you tosee that truth, and one of the
things that we do in the depthpsychological frame is to look

(06:11):
at the dream, because I'm notjust looking at what your ego is
, I'm not just hearing what yourego is saying to me.
I'm also looking at what thedream is communicating, what
unconscious psyche iscommunicating here, and
oftentimes what we find is thatthe dream also tells us what the
solution is.
So I give that back to theindividual.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Okay, yeah.
My next question how canindividuals use depth psychology
principle to explore andaddress underlying shame or
narcissistic tendencies?

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, I would say, going back to the first
principle, which is confession,I would also want to make this
clear which is, for thosepersons who would have
experienced a narcissistic woundand they are struggling from
that wounded place, what theymost need from us, those who are

(07:08):
in the caring profession, isdeep care and compassion,
because they have experiencedsuch, to some extent, such,
traumatic wounding that thepsyche of that individual has
been fragmented.
So they need the care andtenderness.

(07:31):
Not in an enabling way, right,you want to engage in a caring
and nonjudgmental way, as bestas possible, understanding what
is present in the session, whatis happening, and that is
looking at the woundingexperience that the person has

(07:53):
been, what they have had, right.
So, one you're looking at,you're holding that frame,
you're holding that place ofcompassion and deep care for the
child that is wounded.
This is not an adult that's inthe room with you, it's someone,
it's a child that's wounded,that is scared, that is

(08:16):
fragmented and is coming,genuinely coming to get healing,
to have those parts ofthemselves reassembled right In
a genuine way.
Way, they're doing that for theperson who is a narcissist, who
is a malignant narcissist.

(08:38):
They're not coming for that.
They're not coming for thathealing.
They're coming to test power,they're coming to do some kind
of thing that is not healinglike right, and thankfully I
have not had the experience withdealing with someone who is
like that.
So again, I'm saying this in aroundabout way One of the

(09:00):
features would be confessionbecause, as I said in many ways,
that we need to know the truth,we need to be at a place where
we take those stuff that are inthe shadow and we bring it to
light.
Jung said that there is nocoming to consciousness without
pain and suffering, and so it'sabout bringing those things that

(09:24):
are difficult, painful, right,holding it together in the room
with the patient, holding ittogether in the room with the
patient in a way that they cantolerate the tension right so
that they can get the healing?

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, what are the potential benefits and
challenges of working withtherapists who incorporate deaf
psychology principles in theirapproach to treating shame and
narcissisms?

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yes.
What are the benefits?
One you will get the truth.
You'll get the truth in thesense that you wouldn't get BS.
You'll get depth.
You'll get appropriate holdingright.
You'll get depth.
You'll get appropriate holdingright.
You'll get a reflection.
You'll get the ability to modelwhat is an appropriate

(10:17):
therapeutic relationship right.
You'll get understanding of theneed to be in a space of
holding the tension of theopposite and be in paradox.
You'll get ways of opposite andbeing paradox.
You'll get ways of thinking andbeing that is expansive,

(10:37):
because you are not just onething, you are many things right
and you experience variousstates of being.
So you'll get all of that andthe trust and the hope of it is
when you leave the depth,psychological or Jungian
analysis, you are able to engagein life in a way that is

(11:01):
fulfilling and meaningful to you, your community and those who
you love and care for.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
That's what you'll get, okay, so is there anything
you want to add to yourpresentation?
I know that you had two booksthat you wanted to talk about.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
So what else you have for?

Speaker 2 (11:19):
us?
Yes, so aside from the DSM, oneof the other diagnostic guide
that I use is the psychoanalyticdiagnosis.
It's in the second edition andthis is by Nancy McWilliams.
This talks about how tounderstand personality structure

(11:41):
in a clinical setting, not thenarcissistic personality as
outlined in the DSM but thestructure of the personality.
that needs work.
Right, and this is just forinformation purposes the
underside of narcissism.

(12:02):
This is by Andrew P Morrison,and so this helps us to
understand a little bit moreabout how narcissism is framed
from a shame approach.
Right, it shows us that a lotof the literature out there does
not really look at shame andhow it informs narcissistic

(12:25):
behaviors.
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
So tell me a little bit about the importance of it,
since you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yes, yes, because the narcissistic personality has
skipped a developmental stepthat they're stuck right.
They're stuck in this space asa toddler or four-year-old or so
.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
They are in that place of trying to, but that
stage we don't know which one.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
We don't.
You don't know exactly whichstage it is, but they're stuck.
They're stuck in that stage.
They're not an adult, right?
The person is still a child,and so what you want to know is
to find out a little bit moreabout what was it about this
person's life as a child that isso wounding to them, that got

(13:15):
them in that place where they'reso stuck?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Throughout the therapeutic session.
Will you try to understandwhich stage that was lacked?

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes, While I'm working, I'm tracking right.
I'm using all of these theoriesErickson Piaget, the
behavioralist, I'm using Jungand.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Freud, because now you are conducting a throughout
investigation.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yes, yes, yes.
So I'm tracking all of thesethings and I'm looking to see
where the person is at.
But what I rely on heavily isthe dream, because the dream
gives me more data that iscoming directly from the
individual, bypasses the ego,right, the dream is not dressing

(14:00):
up the content to please me,right.
It's giving us in the work thedirect truth about what's
happening.
So I look at that too, to seewhat's going on at the
intra-psychic level.
So it's important, it isimportant for those who are in
the profession to look in theperson's personality structure

(14:24):
to see where shame exists, right, and where toxic and neurotic
shame exists.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Okay, okay, is this your final print?

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes, this is my final print.
Thank you very much for havingme.
I'm looking forward toreturning again sometime soon.
It's been a long day.
It's been a very, very long dayand I'm just looking forward to
having a wonderful evening.
And for anyone who's interestedin working with me or learning

(14:59):
more about my practice, it'sAriel Consulin and Wellness.
We are on psychology today.
Just use my name, andro Charles.
Our telephone number is917-905-4563 and our email
address is info.
At REL Counseling and Wellness,you can Google us, you can give

(15:24):
us a call, send us an email andlet's see if we are a good fit
to address your needs andconcerns.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Or in case you may not remember his phone number or
the email, just go, you know,subscribe to the channel and
shoot me a text and I'll contacthim on your behalf.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yes, that's also an option.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
It was a great pleasure to have you, yes, and I
must thank you so very muchbecause when I called you and I
said I need us to meet, yes.
And so, without even thinkingtwice, you said oh, let's meet
on that date.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
And I really appreciate that.
So you know I don't need toinvite you.
You know it's whenever you feellike you know having, you know
talking about a subject.
Just call me Okay, and we'llmake arrangement.
Okay, all right, thank you.
Keep on looking good.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
I look good, you look fantastic.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
No, you know what of that said.
Let me, let everybody go.
It was with your dr, beatrice,poland with your world.