842 · Disney Adults: Fandom, Identity, and the Magic of Never Growing Up - WDW Radio: Your Guide to the Walt Disney World, Disneyland, Disney Cruise and More Disney Magic!

Episode Transcript
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(00:36):
WDW what does it mean to be aDisney Adult? Is it just loving the
parks and collecting merch? Oris it something deeper about joy,
identity and how we choose tolive our lives? Well, this week I
talked to AJ Wolf, the founderof Disney Food Blog and the author

(00:59):
of Disney Adults, about thepassion, stereotypes and culture
of this often misunderstoodcommunity. Whether you proudly call
yourself a Disney Adult orjust wonder why so many grownups
embrace the magic, thisconversation might just change the
way you see Disney fandom andmaybe even yourself. Hello my friend
and welcome to WW Radio, yourguide to the Disney parks and experiences

(01:22):
around the world. I am LouMongello and this is show number
842. And whether this is yourfirst time listening or you've been
with me since the verybeginning, thank you and welcome
home. Don't forget to be partof the community and conversation
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(01:44):
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(03:10):
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and grow our community. Andyour support means more than you
know. But for now, sit back,relax and enjoy this week's episode

(03:33):
of the WW Radio show. What isa Disney Adult like? What does it
really mean to be a DisneyAdult? Is it about nostalgia or passion

(03:55):
or community? Or maybe is itsomething much deeper about who we
are and what brings us joy?And today, I am very excited to welcome
back my friend. I think I cancall her my friend, H.A. wolf. She
is the founder of Disney FoodBlog, a site that literal millions
of Disney fans turn to forreviews and tips and all things delicious.

(04:16):
Disney food discoveries. Butbeyond food, AJ Is so much more because
she has spent years studyingand living the Disney adult experience,
whatever that is. We'll findout. And now she has written a fascinating
new book, appropriately titledDisney Adults, that is going to dive
into the heart of what I thinkis this often very misunderstood

(04:38):
community and maybe even nameitself. We're going to explore what
draws grown ups to Disney, howfandom shapes Disney, the stereotypes
and the stigmas. And along theway, I think we may even see ourselves
and maybe even in our ownDisney passions a little bit differently.
AJ welcome back.
Thanks, Lou. I'm so you guys.I had to beg Lou to let me come on

(04:59):
his show. He's a ver busy manand I'm so glad that we're finally
able to connect and chat andit's so good to be here.
Well, first things first,like, huge, huge, like sincere congratulations.
Like I'm giving a virtual hugacross the screen, like, huge congratulations
on the book one, because it isjust, it is a huge accomplishment.

(05:22):
I think so many people saythey're going to write a book and
then there's a very smallnumber that actually bridge that
gap and do it. Moreimportantly, Disney Adults has been
incredibly well received atlast count. And I'm watching the
ticker basically every singleday. Number seven on the New York
Times bestseller list.
It was number four.
Oh, there you go.
At one point. And we're tryingto get it back up there.

(05:46):
You just screenshot thatnumber four every single day. Yeah,
that is. It is incredible. Andwe're going to certainly talk more.
But before, before we goforward, let's go back. Like, we
got way back, you and I. But Iwant you to tell me a little bit
about the AJ Disney Food Blogorigin story, really, for a little

(06:08):
bit of context, because it'snot just about how and when, but
and why. I think mostimportantly, you started this journey.
Because I think that answer isgoing to become more important as
we start to go on.
Origin story.
Hi, I'm aj. I was worried.Give me the short, condensed version,

(06:30):
like how you started your.Well, well, how about. You don't
have to go that far back. Howabout just your. Your Disney journey
origin story.
Yeah, I'm not. I'm not good atshort and condensed. Okay.
Hi, I'm Lou. Have we met? It's fine.
Once upon a time. No, I'vebeen it. I've been a Disney fan all

(06:50):
my life. My, you know, I usedto. My parents used to take us down
to Florida, like Clearwaterbeach and stuff like that for spring
breaks. And so we would takeone day to go to Disney and it was
rope drop to fireworks andthen sleep in the car on the way
back to the condo kind ofthing. And we'd only go every couple

(07:13):
of years. You know, we didn'tgo all the time, but that was enough
for me to connect with my. Mydad over the original 1982 Epcot
center music that we. That wegot to experience because we were
both huge fans of that. Movingon. I was influenced by the. The

(07:36):
ABC sitcom families going toDisney World. Like, that was a great
marketing tactic for as far asI'm concerned. And so I said to my
family when I got into myteens, like, hey, we should go to
Disney World again. And Ithink we went a couple times. But
then after that, when I gotinto college, I was like, man, I

(07:57):
just want to. I just want toescape all this. When I moved to
New York City, it was dark andcold and dirty and I wanted to leave.
And so I. I would spend all mymoney going to Disney World. So that's
kind of the origin story is.Is. Is how I've started to become
a Disney adult. Really. Andthen after then, since then, it's.

(08:17):
It's just. It's all history.
So. But. But what is that?What Is that moment? Or what is that
time? Or what is that? BecauseI, because, like, I know that I had
it, but that moment that youstart to first realize that Disney
isn't just something that youenjoy. It's going to become this
lifelong passion that now isgoing to help shape your career.

(08:38):
And as we're talking about interms of context, that Disney adults
really sort of shape your identity.
I do think that that happenedwhen I was living in New York City
and I was really, honestlyjust not super excited about my current
life. And I wanted somethingthat was cleaner and happier and

(09:03):
more joyful. And I kind ofturned to Disney in that, to fulfill
that desire. But I alsostarted reading all the message boards.
That was back in the early2000s, and the message boards were
so huge at that point. And itwas, it was something, it was almost
a challenge for me to learn asmuch as I could about, about it.

(09:24):
And so that sort of became myobsession, was how much can I learn
about this? And how good can Ibe at figuring out this, you know,
this vacation destination? Soit was like a little challenge for
me. And that just, I don'tknow, that just shaped me. Like,
I was like, I love it, lovelearning about it, and I love experiencing
it. So it just became a hobbythat, that I would do with all of
my spare time.

(09:46):
And I think for you and me andprobably a lot of us who are in this
space, our journeys arerelatively similar and at the very
least, somewhat parallel. Wehave this thing that we love. We,
for one reason or other, we gofrom consumers to creators with no,
I mean, maybe you did. I didnot have any sort of grand plan.
This is going to be mybusiness. This is going to be my

(10:09):
career going forward. Becauseyou and I, we had other lives, right?
I was a lawyer. You were doingmany different things. And then at
some point it does. That sortof flip switch gets flipped. But
for the book, like, why thisbook? Like, and why now is this?
Is it because did you feellike you just had this story you

(10:31):
needed to tell? Was it tosatisfy your own curiosity or fascination?
Was a little bit of introspection?
This was not something Iactually wanted to attempt. I was
talking with Simon andSchuster about doing a book, and
I said.
As everyone does, of course,everybody's just.

(10:52):
Sitting down with Simon, youknow, And I was like, and here's
a bunch of ideas. And they'relike, well, what if we do this instead?
And so it was not somethingthat I pitched because I, I, I wasn't,
I, I felt it might be, youknow, it's a huge topic. It's a controversial
topic. It's something thatyou're gonna have to dig into and

(11:14):
help really help peopleunderstand it. Everybody thinks they
have. Everybody thinks theyknow what a Disney adult is. Everybody
has an opinion, but nobodyactually knows anything about us.
And, you know, we just sort ofbecame the whipping boy online for.
For a lot of other hobbiesduring COVID and when everybody was

(11:37):
really angry online. AndDisney adults just sort of became
the butt of the joke. Butnobody really understood us or knew
why we were the butt of thejoke. They just knew we were the
butt of the joke. And so Ithink when my editor at Simon and
Schuster was like, I thinksomeone needs to do this book right
now, it made a lot of senseand it was very scary to attempt

(12:00):
it. But I was like, all, youknow, let's do this. Because I've
seen both sides of this and Iknow, you know, I know a lot of Disney
adults. I am a Disney adult.I'm also very analytical about this
whole thing. So I was ready tokind of attack it, I guess, and write

(12:23):
the definitive guide on who we are.
So I have so many questionsand so much to unpack because, look,
you've been covering Disneyfor years on Disney Food Blog, but
this book obviously feels muchmore personal and to your point,
much more sort of cultural.But. And I'm sort of happy that you

(12:45):
talked about this nondefinitive definition of what a Disney
adult is. I'm going to becompletely transparent with you,
and this is probably theoldest old man thing I may or may
not say today. Much to mychagrin, the very first time I really
heard this used colloquially.Colloquially was from, of course,
my kids. My daughter saidsomething about Disney adults and

(13:09):
I was like, yes, I'm an adultwho loves Disney. Which only made
it worse because little did Iknow that there was this negative
connotation to this term. Ithought a Disney adult was an adult
who has this deep, genuinepassion for Disney, whether it's
the movies or the parks orhistory or food or pins or merch

(13:29):
or all the above. And itwasn't just this sort of casual fandom,
but at varying degrees and,you know, width and breadth of the
spectrum. It was part of theirlifestyle, part of their identity.
And again, I was almost, youknow, because that's what our kids
do. Made to feel embarrassedthat, like, no, dad, like, Disney

(13:51):
Adult is not necessarilysomething that is used in the most
complimentary of ways.
Right, exactly. It's, it's. Itwas very Interesting. You know, I
have seen all of the, theviral TikToks and the Reddit threads
about Disney adults and, and,and the examples of Disney adults,

(14:15):
which are, some of them Ithink are authentic and some of them
I think are fictional. Butthe, the first key was defining Disney
adults. Right? And, and goingdigging into the urban dictionary
definitions, looking at, youknow, the fact that there are dating

(14:36):
apps, people on dating apps inAnaheim and Orlando that literally
put at the top of theirprofile, no Disney adults, like,
they don't even want youinvolved in, in what they're doing.
So there's a lot of negativ,and that's for a lot of different
reasons. You know, chapterfour, we'll dig into that. Like,

(14:58):
why are we so hated? Like,what is that about? But so defining
Disney adults. I, I talked toa lot of psychologists about what,
what would we, how would wedefine this particular term and not
making it positive ornegative. And so what we leaned into
was a Disney adult is someonewho intentionally and willingly brings

(15:20):
Disney into their lives,whether or not they have k, whether
or not they're a millennial,you know, all of these little stereotypical
pieces. It's just if, if youbring Disney into your life on purpose
as an adult, then, then youare a Disney adult. But I do think
it's a spectrum. I think thatthere are people who, this is their

(15:40):
whole personality, this istheir whole life, this is what they,
they base their worth on. Andthen there are people who, you know,
go to, go to Disney everycouple of years because they want
to ride the new ride, andthat's the. Or people who just really
like Disney music and want tolisten to Disney music. And that's
the other thing about Disneyadults is I think it's such a huge

(16:02):
community. People want to putus in a box and you really can't.
It is much more of a spectrum.There are Disney movie Disney adults
who don't care about the parksat all. There are merchandise Disney
adults who only are going tocollect the merchandise. And they're
not going to care about themovies or, you know, the music or
the parks or the history orimagineering. You know, so there's

(16:24):
lots, lots of the Disneyadults even have specializations
like they, they go deep intoone or two things because there's
just so much. Disney ownseverything at this point. You know,
you can have, I consider Starwars fans Disney adults. And, and
it's just, it's kind ofimpossible to love all of it at that
level.

(16:45):
Yeah, when I first started,which again, not to sort of date
myself was sort of pre socialmedia. I was just, I thought there
was like this big bucket ofDisney fans. I didn't realize like
the pin people don't careabout the movies and the movie people
might not care about theparks. And there are these, and I
think wonderfully so, all ofthese little sub, sub, sub cultures.

(17:07):
Because whoever your peopleare, you do have now the ability
to go out and find them. WhenI started my discussion forum, discussion
boards and forums in 2004, Ithought I was the only semi adult
living in his basement thatloved Disney as much as I did. As
people came in by the hundredsand then the thousands, I was like,
wow. Like I do feel like I'mnot the only person, because I did.

(17:30):
But I started to sort of get abetter understanding of what that
looked like. But you talkabout how, you know, some people
are mocked, they're ridiculedas Disney adults. You sort of use
the term frame to. It's the,the term cadalt. And I, I start to
see because I do it myselfalmost unintentionally, we are defending

(17:52):
ourselves almost against thatterm. I'm like, I'm not a Disney
adult. They're like, whoa,Mangello, you quit your job, you
sold your house, you moved toDisney. You talk about Disney for
a living. You live behindMagic Kingdom. Like, dude, you're
Disney. Like, no, no, no. I'man adult who loves Disney. And I
mean, yes, look, I am a 9 yearold boy trapped in a much older body,
but I'm proud of that. LikeI'm proud that I like the place is

(18:15):
still special to me. It stillbrings me joy and I still get, you
know, a smile on my face whenI see the castle because I don't
go every single day. God blessthose of you who do. But it is something
that brings me joy. It'sbrought me joy generationally with
going with my parents and thentaking my kids. And I don't think
that this fandom is all thatmuch different from sports super

(18:38):
fans or comic book collectors,of which I am as well too, or music
devotees. Like if you go to aconcert or if you go to, you know,
a comic convention, you aregoing to see the same thing again
on a broad spectrum. But it isabout this joy and I think belonging
and meaning to something thatwe all have this shared love of.

(18:59):
Yeah. And I, I really kind ofdig into that a bunch in the book
too is what makes why doeseverybody hate us but they don't
hate NFL fans, You know, orthey, you know, it's, it's okay to
be a Star Trek fan, but it'snot okay to be a Disney fan. And
so what I, what I kind ofdeduced there was one of the big,

(19:22):
one of the big issues, one ofthe big things that makes us different
from a lot of other hobbyistsis that the thing that we love is
supposed to be for kids,right? Like, people don't understand
why you would still likesomething that is made for children.
It's kind of, it's kind oflike lumped into that whole, like

(19:45):
if you collect My LittlePonies or if you, like, you know,
you're, you're, you're superinto, I don't know, getting those
real life baby dolls, youknow, like, like there's like, the
people are like, well, this isfor kids. Why, why haven't you outgrown
this yet? Because, and thething is that, you know, as, as Disney,
as Walt Disney himself said,you know, you're dead if you aim

(20:07):
only for kids. You, you haveto entice the adults as well kind
of thing. So. And I think thatthat's what a lot of these folks
don't understand is that theymay see that, they may see Disney
as something for kids, butDisney is actually much, much bigger
than that. And you know, Ioften will say, you know, they literally

(20:27):
just gave prime real estate inEpcot to an lounge, which they've
never done before. And I dothink that the Disney adult community
is growing. It will continueto grow. You're seeing a lot, you're
seeing statistically peoplehaving fewer children. So you're
going to see more and you'reseeing the, the nostalgia from the,

(20:51):
the community that grew upwith Disney movies on tape, right?
Disney movies on their VCR andbeing able to just rewind and play
again. That community thatgrew up in the 90s, they are kind
of asserting themselves as theDisney adult community. And you're
going to have more and moreand more and more of those coming

(21:11):
in, people who grew up onDisney movies that could watch them
24 7. So I do think it's goingto grow. I think that the community
is going to get bigger. Butyeah, that's why people. Was one
of the reasons people don'tlike us is because they're like,
they don't understand why welike something that's for children.
And that can, that's weird.Like, why do you like something for
kids? And so not to defendwhat we do, but I do want to say

(21:35):
I feel like your hobby isn'tyou don't love your hobby. You love
how your hobby makes you feel.And so if you think about Taylor
Swift fans or NFL fans orpeople who are super into knitting,
like, they don't necessarilylove that specific thing. They love

(21:55):
that it makes them feelrelaxed or that Taylor Swift gets
them and it's relatable or,you know, the, the NFL makes them
feel like they're in. They'repart of a community of other people
who love the same thing. Theylove. That's, I think, the ticket
to understanding hobbyists andpeople who absolutely, you know,
put all this time and moneyinto this thing that isn't like their

(22:16):
career. And, and, and that'skind of what you have to get your
head around is, is that it'sthe same as every other hobby. We're
spending just as much money asother people are on their hobbies.
But people don't like itbecause it's.
For children, which, like yousaid, it's not. But I like how the

(22:37):
book and you, I think,obviously, very deliberately, the
term Disney adult may havestarted as a dig, but you and the
book really are doing a lot tosort of champion the cause of reframing
it as something that's verypowerful and very positive and I
think worth understanding.Because I think, you know, so many

(22:59):
people are so hard on Disneyadults. I sort of thought about it
in this way, and maybe thatthat's how it's viewed. You know,
there's the Disney adults inwhatever sort of bucket of fandom
and that Venn diagram mightlook like of the overlapping of fandoms,
but there's, you know, theoutsiders, right, that are getting
it wrong because they justdon't understand who we are and what

(23:20):
we do. And I sort, I hate tosort of talk about us like we're
some sort of weird cult, but Ithink, you know, it's this idea of
reclaiming and redefining andsort of helping us understand and
other people understand whatit really means to be a Disney adult.
Yeah. Oh, totally. And I, Ithink what we're going to find as
we continue to move as a, asa, as a culture online, you're going

(23:46):
to be able to find your tribeor your people online much more easily
than you're going to find themin your village. Right. And I think
we're going to fracture intothese little subcultures that, that
just live online. Like, thereare people that, that I know better
than. I, I don't know any ofmy neighbors around here, but I know

(24:07):
a lot of folks who live inother states and other countries,
because I talk to them everyday online, and I think that's going
to continue to be a thing. SoI think that, to me, that's incredibly
interesting to watch how we,as, you know, we as communities are
moving online, becoming notvery much a part of our local neighborhoods
anymore, but becoming part ofour neighborhoods on. On the Internet.

(24:32):
It's. It's fascinating to meto follow that, but I do think the
Disney adults are. The onething I want people to understand
is it's just a me. It's as biga community as NFL fans, probably
even bigger. And in the sameway that you might love a certain

(24:52):
team, you know, Lou,unfortunately, is a Giants fan, but
you might love a certain team,but you still love the whole concept
of the. So Disney adults arethe same way I love the parks. I'm
a parks adult. There arepeople who are movie adults, but
we're all Disney adults. Andso I think people are just gonna

(25:14):
have to figure out that thesecommunities, these subcultures, are
very, very similar. And Ialso, I mean, something else I do
in the book is I liken it tocommunities haven't changed over
the history of time. Churchcommunities are the same. And there's
these hierarchies and there'sthese rules and these mores and these
taboos that are part of thesecultures too, which, again, is fascinating

(25:39):
to look at. Disney adults knowwhat equals status in the Disney
adult community, which isfascinating. And you know what you
have to get or attain in orderto get that status or have people
admire where you are in theDisney adult community. It's amazing.

(26:03):
I'm a huge student of humanityand I love just watching all of that.
I'm the same because I love itand almost sort of compare and liken
it to. Look, I as anentrepreneur, as a creator, and I
think, just in general, Ithink it's so important to put yourself
in the right room to write, tobe in the place where other people

(26:24):
are. So I love attendingconferences, both as a speaker and
as an attendee. And I thinkfrom the Disney side, the recent
destination D23 here inOrlando, I really, as much as I was
there to sort of take it inand enjoy it as a Disney enthusiast,
I wanted to look at it fromthis lens as well, because I think

(26:45):
this was a microcosm of whatthe Disney community as a whole is,
because it is not. And youtalk about this in the book, it's
not a one size fits all,because for some people, it is about
the nostalgia and thesentiment and holding on to those,
the joys that we had inchildhood. And that joy could be
a Goofy movie, it could beMary Poppins, depending on where

(27:06):
you are. But I also think it'sthat sense of escapism, whether again,
it's the movies or the parksas this refuge from daily life. It's
that sense of belonging andthat sense of community. And I also
think too, it starts to becomepart of your identity to allow you

(27:28):
to be creative, to have selfexpression. Whether you're a disneybounder
or a cosplayer or a creator, atattoo person, or your home is just
littered with sorcererMickeys. It starts to become how
you see yourself and how not,not just you present yourselves to
the world. But I think takingmore comfort in the fact that I can

(27:53):
feel free to go out andexpress myself this way because I
know now that I am not alone, right?
And I think that's one of the,one of the biggest benefits of. I
think social media has heard alot of stuff, but I think that social
media has absolutely benefitedmany, many, many of us as Disney

(28:14):
adults because we've been ableto find the people we with that we
maybe wouldn't be able to findin our, in, in our physical town
where we live. You know, Ithink that I have talked to Disney
adults who have said thiscommunity saved my life, literally
saved my life, because peoplefelt so ostracized and so different

(28:38):
from the, the people aroundthem in their actual physical town.
And to find a community wherethey belonged, where people underst,
where people gave them thespace they needed to be themselves,
I think is a massive benefit.And regardless of the negativity

(29:03):
that maybe needs to be enduredonline or needs to be endured from
your friends and family aboutyour hobby, you can still find the
people that understand you andthat are passionate with you about
this thing online. And I thinkthat's a massive benefit. And I do
believe that it has saved alot of people's lives to find this

(29:23):
particular community, withouta doubt.
And I'm sure you and I haveboth received an email or had a conversation
with somebody who would say,because of you, because of what you
do, because of this community,you have literally and figuratively
saved me. And again, a verywide spectrum of ways. But you know,
like I said for years, evennot speaking about Disney and adults,

(29:46):
I say sort of half jokingly,adults ruin everything, right? Look,
if you're a kid who likescollecting Pokemon cards, you know
exactly what I'm talkingabout, right? If you are a kid who's
trying to get your hands on aLubu for whatever reason. You know
exactly what I'm talkingabout. And you, you talk about sometimes
the, the really difficultthing about being a Disney adult
is other Disney adults becausethere are these. You, you referenced

(30:12):
it before. These are thesesort of like weird hierarchies and
judgment inside the community.Talk about that dynamic a little
bit, right? I don't mean sortof the dark side of Disney, but in
terms of maybe how we asDisney fans can support one another
better.
Yeah, I mean, just the darkside of humanity in general. Right.

(30:34):
And that's, that's somethingthat I found studying this, this
community is, is humans arehumans no matter where we, where
we end up, you know, and this.And the same sort of, sort of base
driving factors of, you know,survival, success, you know, those
exist in every community,including this one. But as I was

(30:55):
interviewing people becauseone of the things I wanted to do
for this book was interview abunch of Disney adults so that people
could really get anunderstanding of how different we
all are and the differentcorners of this particular subculture.
And so one of my standardquestions as I was doing interviews
was, you know, do you get alot of, of negative response from

(31:16):
your friends, your family,whatever? And I kept. That was one
of the cornerstones of mybook. And one of my, one of the things
I kept hearing over and overagain was, yeah, a little bit, but
what really stinks about beinga Disney adult is other Disney adults.
And I was like, wait a minute,what? Did I hear that right? And

(31:37):
I ended up having tocompletely change how I was going
to write the book in thatparticular context, because I was
going to talk a lot about howmuch negativity people get from,
from outside. And the truthwas that they were battling more
with, on the inside of thecommunity, which I thought was absolutely

(31:57):
fascinating. Like, and that's.I, But I could totally see it though,
as a, as a member of acommunity, you don't really care
about what's going on outside.That doesn't matter to you. The people
that matter to you are theother people that are that, that
are in, in your group. Youknow, it's kind of like when you're
in middle school, right? Likeif you're, you know, maybe you're

(32:20):
on the football team andyou're not a band kid, you don't
care what the band kids say.I'm on the football team and I care
what the football kids kidssay. Right. So anyway, I, so I, so
I dug into that a little bit.And I got a lot of, of interesting
insights that people are like,yeah, I really hate when, when other
Disney adults look down on mebecause I don't have an annual pass

(32:42):
or they pity me because Ihaven't ridden the newest ride or
you know, whatever. I, Ihaven't done this thing that you
have to. I don't have 75lounge fly bags, whatever. And the
other thing they talked aboutwas, honestly, I heard from a lot
of Disney adults how much theydislike the concept of the reselling
going and buying all of thelimited edition merchandise and reselling

(33:05):
it online for higher prices.And so that really just spurred me
to think about what is itabout our community that is making
people feel bad or negative orostracized in, in the same community?
Because it's getting that big.It's getting big enough that, that

(33:27):
that's happening. So I thoughtthat was really interesting as well,
that, that people felt likethey had to, you know, attain a certain.
And I think Disney's noticedthat. Right? Disney knows that if
they put a specific food itemor merchandise item out there, that,
that this community is gonna,is going to esteem the people who
get access to that and that'ssuddenly going to give you status.

(33:50):
And so Disney knows, okay,we're gonna put this limited edition
piece of merchandise over herein this part of the park that nobody
goes to, so we can get bodiesover there and they know that we'll
just go like sheep over thereand buy that thing, you know, so
it's, it's, it's fascinating.
Yeah. Even just, you know,merchandise is a great example. I
never realized, honestly, AJuntil recently when I would just

(34:12):
see on social media, I didn'trealize that like Tuesdays for the
pin community are a big deal.And if you don't believe me, look
at the lines in varyinglocations throughout the parks or
Disney Springs of people linedup like walking at a very fast pace,
borderline running to get tobe first in the line to get that

(34:34):
new pin, that limited editionrelease. You put the word limited
or exclusive in front ofsomething and Disney fans brains
fall out of their heads.
They do. It's absolutely. And,and it is because it is status, because
it doesn't. I can't. I mean, Ilike when I get something cool that
I really wanted, but it's moreabout letting other people know I

(34:55):
have this cool thing that Ireally wanted. Do you know what I
mean? Like, it's, it's, it'samazing to me. So again, it goes
back to the anthropology ofall of it just that. That, you know,
the study, the study ofhumanity. We are. We're not any different
than we used to be. It's. It'sthe same. I need to get this thing
that nobody else can get.
So.
Yeah, it's fascinating.

(35:15):
Yeah. And I think looking atit as you do, and I love the fact
that you sort of take a microand macro looks at this, but from
a broader sort of culturalsignificance perspective, you talk
about it within sort of thisgreater sort of kidalt trend. And
I think we're starting to see.I think we've been seeing it for

(35:37):
a while. There has been thisfocus on attention to. And fortunately
being able to have this needsatiated in a variety of reasons.
Sentiment, nostalgia. Right.And this generation especially is
so strongly holding on to notjust Disney, but things from their

(36:00):
childhood, and so much so thatwe're spending the money, clearly,
you know, tens of thousanddollars on repeated trips and cruises
and pins and. And Lorcanacards and, you know, lug bags. What
do you think this says about,again, from a much, much broader,
like, cultural perspective,what do you think this says about

(36:22):
what people are looking for intoday's world? Because I think this
is. I think this is very muchindicative of something greater.
We could have a whole otherpodcast about this. Like, I guess
what my brain goes toimmediately is that this is one of

(36:45):
the first kind of. I thinkprobably the baby boomers were the
first generation that was ableto look back nostalgically at their
childhood and kind of want torecreate that. This might also be.
And that, you know, themillennial generation might also
be one of the firstgenerations where the world is. Is

(37:06):
not necessarily getting betteras they get older. And so they're
sort of looking. Wanting torecapture this perfection or this
safety or this predictabilityof their childhood. And that's sort
of what is driving the. Let mebe very excited about the Lizzie

(37:27):
McGuire reboot kind of thing.It's just like back when I cared
about that, that was when mylife made sense. And so I want my
life to make sense again. Solet me just. Let me just go back
there. And like I said,statistically, this generation is
not having. Is not having asmany children. And I think that that

(37:47):
will continue to be a factorin. If you. If you don't have kids
and you're not sort ofbringing up their childhoods, you
are perfectly welcome to goback to your own childhood and spend
your time kind of, you know,your time and your resources around
that. So I think it'sPartially that, you know, the world

(38:09):
is. It feels kind of messyright now. And we're looking for
predictability and we'relooking for something that made us
feel safe. And Disney is very,very happy to give us that.
Yeah, I think we're lookingfor comfort. Right. We want our own
sort of version of comfortfoods. And sometimes buying the shirt

(38:31):
and wearing the shirt out, itis like an NFL fan. It's not just
because you love that team,you love that character, you love
that movie, but you just deepdown, you're waiting for somebody
to walk by and go, I get you.Like, I'm a fan too. I get.
Absolutely.
But, you know, in thisweekend, as I was thinking about
talking to you today, youknow, look at the shelves and the

(38:53):
walls and stuff behind me, youknow, yes, it's because I do live
and things like that, butthese, the things that I have here
are for nobody else other thanfor me. Because as I was looking
around, I'm like, well, maybeevery so often I try and, you know,
house clean a little. Let mesort of minimize a little bit what
I have in here. Like, but thismakes me feel good. Like, this reminds

(39:14):
me of something. I have my1978 Battlestar Galactica, Cylon
Raider and Viper there. Notbecause anybody is going to see it
or get it, nerd, but because Isee it. And I think about my dad
and I think about watchingthat show and it's just, it's for
nobody else other than me. Andit just, for whatever reason, these
little things make us happy.

(39:35):
Absolutely. I have twoAquatopia ride vehicles here that
sit on my desk all the timebecause I have such joy and such
great memories from ridingthis ride in Tokyo Disney. And it
just makes me so happy to seethese. And so if things are getting
a little crazy, crazy, I justlook at those and I go, ah, that

(39:58):
was fun. You know, it's likethere is, there is fun and joy in
the world. And this is makingme remember that. You know what I
mean? So that's sort ofexactly why we, we love this stuff
and collect this stuff. Andthen I think the, the point of it
reminding you of your dad.Like, to me, as I was interviewing

(40:18):
my staff and my. And all ofthese Disney adults for the book,
it kept going back toeverybody's origin story, kept going
back to family or friends orwho did I share this experience with?
And that, to me was verytelling because it's, again, it's

(40:40):
not necessarily about thehobby. It's about how the hobby makes
you feel. It's about who thehobby makes you remember and the,
the, you know, thoseexperiences that you relive because
of what, of what you love. Andso for, like, for me, it's my dad
1000%. And you know that, thatcomes through loud and clear in the

(41:01):
book. But I think you get tosort of look at things and remember
those people that made such abig difference in your life as well.
Right? It's not about thething, Right. There's a Daredevil
comic book that's a gradedDaredevil comic on, on the wall that's
there. It has nothing to dowith the comic book. It has nothing
to do. It has to do with. I'lltell you a very quick story. I go

(41:22):
to New York Comic Con with myson every year and you know, he knows
I love Daredevil. And there'sa cover of Daredevil. Who is an attorney.
I am a recovering attorney whohas this beautifully drawn scales
of justice and Daredevil. Andhe knew that I wanted it and he lied
and said, oh, I need to go tothe bathroom. And I was like, do
you want me to go with you?Mind you? He's like 17. I'm like,
no, it's okay. Cause it's NewYork. And he's like, no, no. And

(41:44):
what he did is he went off andhe found this comic and he knew I
wanted it and he bought itwith his own money. I'm gonna cry.
And he gave it to me, right?And so that's why. That's it. You
can't see it, but there is afour foot tall, giant plush baymax
sitting on the little couch inmy office. Yes, I Love Big Hero 6.
Yes, I love the thing. Butagain, I like my son. We were in

(42:08):
Tokyo Disneysea. He knew Iloved it. We share the same non threatening,
huggable design. He saw melike hugging it one day while we
were there. Again, I have tostart picking up on what his, his
tells are. He's like, dad, Ineed to go to the bathroom. This
is right where the parkcloses. He runs off, he comes back,
he's got this ginormous bagwith the giant baymax in it, you

(42:28):
know, that he bought with hisown money to give for me. So he sits
there, not as a reminder ofthe character or the movie or Disney
or, you know, riding thebaymax. Happy Friday in Tokyo Disneyland.
It remind. Oh goodness, dang.Reminds me. It, it reminds me of
that feeling. It reminds me ofwhat he did for me. And that's what,

(42:50):
like, that's what this is allabout. It comes back to whatever
sort of way it makes you feel.Like who cares what somebody else
thinks?
Exactly. And it, and, and Ithink that's the other thing that
people who, people that hateon any subculture, whether it's Taylor
Swift fans or it's, you know,football fans, whatever, like you,

(43:15):
you, you don't, you can'tjudge the thing. You don't really
understand what's behind it.Right. And I, and I do think that
there's, that's why some,something that I tell people in,
in the. I ask people to do inthe book is, is think about what
you love. Think about thething that you're spending lots of

(43:35):
money on right now. Maybe it'sfishing, maybe it's golf, maybe it's
a boat. You know, there arepeople who are like, why would you
buy a friggin boat? Thatdoesn't make any sense. But there
are people that this bringsthem joy, it brings them opportunities
to share with friends andfamily. It brings them peace and
comfort. And that's what youhave to think about is what do you

(43:57):
love that you're spending allyour time and money on? And then
just understand that's howDisney adults feel, right? That everybody's
got something that they love,that they're passionate about, probably
obsessive about. And that'sjust how we as humans, I guess. This
thing that makes us feel good,the thing that gives us dopamine,

(44:19):
that gives us joy andhappiness and reminds us of our grandma,
reminds us of our son or ofour spouse, house, that is, is the
thing that, that we're goingto love and everybody's got something
like that. You just have tofigure out that you under. You understand
other people from thatperspective. Like I always say, if

(44:40):
you don't, if you don't getsomebody, if you don't like somebody,
figure out what you have incommon with that person and then
you might understand them alittle bit better. So find that thing
that you love and then youmade. You might understand Disney
adults maybe just a little bit more.
Well, I think, to your point,A.J. i think, I think there is something
that everyone can learn fromthis, right? Because I think that

(45:02):
there's, there's a bit of aparadox at play, right? Disney adults
are accused of refusing, like,grow up, man. Like really. But in
truth, I think maintainingthis, you know, Duncan Wardle talks
about this all the time. Aswe, you know, as we become adults,
creativity starts to sort offall away. But I think maintaining

(45:23):
that wonder in adulthood mightbe one of the hardest and most mature
things that you can do. So doyou think that Disney adults are
actually modeling a muchhealthier form of adulthood because
we embrace this idea of notnecessarily growing up?
Well, something that I.Something that I do talk about in

(45:44):
the book is that I. Peopleaccuse us of being head in the sand.
People accuse us of notdealing with things, and it's just
escaping to Disney andwrapping ourselves in this fantasy
world. But what I will say tothat is that I actually think, and
there's a story in the bookabout, you know, my very best friend

(46:05):
in my late 20s, my roommate,was diagnosed with breast cancer
at, you know, 27, which isinsane. You're not thinking about
stuff like that then. And wehad a trip, a super budget trip to
Disney scheduled, and we endedup going to Disney. And Disney is
where we processed this. Andwhat does this mean? And what should

(46:30):
she do? And what are nextsteps? I actually think that going
to a place that gives youpeace and comfort and joy is a place
that is going to help youactually work through reality in
a. In a much more positiveway, you know? And I talked to several
Disney adults who had similarexperiences. Oh, I found out my.

(46:51):
My dad passed away, and thisis where I went to kind of process
it because everything aroundme felt safe. And so I was able to
have. I had more energy toprocess this thing I needed to think
about. So anyway, I thinkthat's another interesting way to
look at it is people see usas, oh, we're just escaping reality

(47:12):
and trying to run away fromit. But in truth, Disney is actually
a great place for us to go tofeel safe and surrounded by joy and
love, and a place where we canactually process reality in a much
more positive way.
So I want to try and connectthe dots a little between where we
are now, the future and thepast a little bit. Right. Because

(47:32):
what about the future? Right.Do you think that Gen Z and Gen Alpha
are going to continue toembrace this Disney fandom in adulthood
the same way that Millennialsand Gen Xers has? Like, what. What
does the future of Disneyadults look like?
I do think that this communityis going to grow substantially. I

(47:54):
think that the generationscoming up are not going to necessarily
see a significant divisionbetween things that are for kids
and things that are foradults? I don't know why I think
that, but I do think thatthese. These generations have grown
up on Disney, have grown upon. You know, Disney keeps buying

(48:15):
more and more and more andmore and more. And so the. Everything
they're surrounded by is ownedby Disney and they're going into
Fortnite and they're goinginto all these spaces where these
kids live. And so I do thinkthat they're going to be Disney fans.
And I don't think there'sgoing to be quite as much of a stigma.
I don't think with the. Ithink people are going to start to
understand more that you canlove what you love and that's okay.

(48:39):
So I'm very intrigued to seewhat happens and how Disney changes.
That's something else I wantedto look at in this book is does this
fandom actually affectDisney's choices? And I do think
it does. And so I think it'sgoing to be fascinating to see how
this younger generationaffects what we end up experiencing

(49:02):
in the parks and the moviesand things like that. It's going
to be cool to watch. I'mexcited to watch it.
Yeah. And if you don't believethat the line between adults and
kids has been blurred, justlook at the Bluey fans. Because there's
more like. But I'm happy youbrought up Disney because that's
what I mean about sort ofconnecting the dots in terms of Disney's
role and strategy. BecauseDisney has, since the very beginning,

(49:25):
they've catered to adults,like from fine jewelry and watches
in the 30s to retirementcommunities like, you know, very
adult, adult drivencommunities and experiences and tours
and trips. Like, howintentional do you think is in terms
of looking at Disney and sortof helping to cultivate this idea

(49:48):
of Disney adults as lifelong fans?
Oh, very intentional and Ithink it always has been. I just
think now it's becomingextremely obvious. Right. And some
of the folks that weinterviewed, one quote that I thought
was, well, we actually askedpeople, how long do you think you'll

(50:11):
be a Disney fan? And it waslike, I'll be a Disney fan till I
die. And I think that Disneyis like, great, let's figure out
how to make money from youuntil then. Then let's do that. And
they absolutely are.
I mean, look, which we verywillingly do. We line up and take
days off to give Disney ourmoney because again, we know what
the return on the investmentis is gonna be for us.

(50:32):
We do. We absolutely do. LikeDisney is. It fascinates me. Again,
I say fascinating a lotbecause this community really is
that Disney is you. I will sitin an online waiting room for 11
hours on multiple devices inorder to give Disney thousands of
dollars. It's like, let mewait. Let me destroy my whole day

(50:56):
just to sit and watch thislittle man walk across a little.
I hate the little green man.
I hate the little man.
Can I pay you more? To giveyou more is really what I'm trying
to.
And then the thing thatboggles my mind is that it'll kick
me off the waiting room andI'll get back on, I get back on the
waiting room, like what iswrong with me? But it's true. I know.

(51:20):
I think Disney will absolutelycontinue to realize that they're
in that they have a lot ofadults who are dedicated to what
they do. I mean, you look atDisney Vacation, Club Golden Oak,
if you really start digging tosee all the ways that Disney is very
happy to take the money ofgrownups without children or grownups

(51:41):
that are Disney adults, yousee it more and more and more. So
yep, I think that'll become amuch broader. There'll be many more
opportunities for us to giveDisney money as we get older.
Yeah. And look this, you know,from a marketing perspective, it
always used to be, you know,get the children interested in something
and then the adults will comeand spend the money.

(52:01):
Yeah.
Breakfast cereals, Disneyparks, whatever it might be. But
now I think Disney is in aninteresting place because they've
got to start to veryintentionally think about balancing
the children and adults, adultsuper fans. Right. So, you know,
because there are so do youthink all of these adult oriented

(52:21):
offerings, upscale dining,guad to after hours events, do you
think, how do you think thatplays in, in terms of enhancing the
experience for adult or areyou starting to, you know, risk,
you know, because now you'redoing things that are, are not going
to be, you know, for, foractual kid kids, not just Disney
adult kids as well.

(52:46):
I, I mean I think Disney doessee the writing on the wall that,
that they have a hugecommunity of adults that don't have
children that are, are veryhappy to continue along with their
Disney fandom. And so they aregoing to have to. And those people
aren't necessarily, they maybe looking for nostalgia, but they're
not necessarily excited tojust ride Peter Pan over and over

(53:06):
and over again. You know, theywant other things. And so I think
Disney is recognizing, okay,we've got to create, you know, these,
these other spaces andopportunities. I mean, Villains Land
is very interesting to me. Idon't know that that would have ever
been a thing that would havehappened in original Disneyland,
you know, because I think thatis going to be not obviously not

(53:27):
adults only, but maybe alittle more adult oriented or older
child, you know, older kidoriented and I, and I think that,
you know, the fact that Disneykeeps building these deluxe resorts,
right. I mean, we haven't seena value or a moderate built in years.
You know, it's all higher end,it's all, you know, come and spend

(53:49):
your money on this, on thisluxury experience. So I think that
that's interesting too, thatthey're, they're clearly catering
to people that have excessdollars to spend and they want this
to be a luxury and an adultoriented experience. I think it's,
it's going to be real cool tosee how these offerings really change.

(54:09):
And I, and I, I, I don'tbelieve this yet. But I feel like
instead of we've got to getthe kids so that the adults will
come, Disney is absolutelyshifting at least to 50, 50 of enticing
the adults first and foremost.
Yeah, you're gonna go toDisney World whether you like it
or not. Kids pretty much.

(54:31):
I mean, and that's, you know,that's what's so funny is I was,
I was, I had a book signingthis past week and I, and there was
a family there. And it's, it'sall the adults that are coming, obviously.
It's, it's the kids, the kidsaren't coming to see me or get a
book signed and it's theadults that are dragging their kids
along and, and they're, andI'm like, do you really, do you like

(54:54):
going to Disney with mom?That's all right. You know what I
mean? They're like, well, Iguess I have to go because this is
what we're doing for springbreak. So I do think that it may
be shifting to that a little bit.
You also talk about, and Ithink this is fascinating, especially
from where we come from, abouthow, you know, we're talking about

(55:17):
the relationship of Disney andfans and you talk about how fans
have become. And I don't lovethis word contextually because I
think it's a gift word, notone you call yourself. But I digress
about how fans have become notonly influencers, but really almost
unofficial ambassadors forDisney. How do you look at that relationship

(55:39):
between Disney and fancreators today in the context of
Disney adults?
Yeah, this was a veryinteresting part of the book that
I wanted to include because Ithink this is a very opaque relationship
and a lot of people want tounderstand how it works. And so I

(55:59):
tried to dig into this in thebook a little bit to show at least
what, how I understand that itworks, because I think it is evolving.
I think the influencesubculture or the, the influencer
culture, I should say it's nota subculture is, is growing. I think
there's a lot, I think at thispoint, a lot. I would, I wouldn't
say the majority of, butprobably 50 of Disney fans are influencers

(56:23):
as well. You know, that's a,that's a part of what they're doing
is, is showing what they'redoing online. Right? And, and so
watching Disney grow from, youknow, literally suing people who
talked about them online tothis being a huge part of their marketing,

(56:45):
you know, this, this kind ofuser generated content being a huge
part of their, of theirmarketing strategy is, is very interesting
to look at. And we, you know,we've been with Disney, we've, we've
been around Disney to watchthat whole evolution from okay, Disney's
gonna actually, actually starta parks blog and start the mom's
panel and they want toactually interact with fans in a

(57:08):
way that they never hadbefore. And then moving on to, okay,
well what do we do with allthese people who are talking about
us online? How do we controlthat messaging, you know, and figuring
out, okay, how we're actuallygoing to bring, you know, these social
media people to our mediaevents that historically had only
been mainstream media likemagazines and newspapers and radio.

(57:31):
And so now we're going tobring these people who are creators
and influencers and justlooking, just, just watching them
evolve through that has beeninteresting. And watching us evolve
through that has beeninteresting. We've all been on this
ride together and figuring outhow does this, how's this going to
work? And I think it is stillvery, very much evolving as, as you're

(57:54):
seeing the influencer cultureeverywhere evolving. You know, it's
not, I say in the book, it'snot, it's not anymore. Like you watch
the Pepsi commercial whereCindy Crawford drinks some of the
Pepsi can and obviously shereally likes Pepsi. Like we all know
she got paid. She doesn't, sheprobably doesn't even drink Pepsi.
But in terms of now you'rewatching these influencers and creators

(58:16):
and you're not really sure whoto trust anymore. Like, are they
just saying this because theywant to go back to Disney for free
or do they, are they reallytrying to help me? And so now we
as consumers have to figureout what's, where are the lies and
where are the truths here? Soagain, that's another thing that
is, is very interesting tokeep an eye on is how is Disney going

(58:38):
to continue to evolve with theinfluencer culture? Because it's
got to be really hard for themto decide. Yes, this is someone that
it makes sense for us to spendour time and money on because of
course they want them to saynice things about them, but they
can't require that. And soyou've got to, you know, you've got
to pick and choose carefully.And then of course the, the influencer

(59:00):
themselves is kind ofthinking, well, I'm never going to
get invited back to Disney ifI'm not nice about them. And so,
you know, if I don't like thefood or if I don't like the hotel
or if I don't like thisexperience, am I okay to say that?
You know, and so we're alljust sort of figuring out what, what
that's, you know, there's noregulations. It's still the wild
west.
Well, I think it comes again.This is a whole other conversation

(59:23):
we could have another day, butit really comes to the trust. I about
talk, but I think the role inthe relationship business, AJ no
matter what business that youare in, and I have a relationship
with you, but I have arelationship with you, the one person
who is listening. And thatrelationship is built on trust. And
that trust is a, is very mucha two way street. And I think that
is what Disney is looking toinvest in, in the creators, the influencers,

(59:46):
whatever you want to call them.
Yep.
But almost as an extension ofthat, you know, I do a lot of speaking
to corporations about how theycould sort of leverage lessons from
Disney and the Disney parksand the relationships that Disney
Parks has with their biggestsuper fans and Disney adults. And
I think that there is no othercompany, no other brand on planet

(01:00:07):
earth that has the amount ofbrand loyalty that Disney does. Right.
So if Disney adults are themost loyal customers that any brand
can dream of, what kind oflessons do you think other industries,
other businesses could learnfrom Disney about how to cultivate
that same type of notfleeting, but more importantly that

(01:00:29):
lifelong devotion that we have?
This is the million dollarquestion. And, and, and this is something
I wanted to figure out. Thisis like my whole chapter two is like,
how do you manipulate me likethis Disney, how do you make me like
this? That I will sit in thatonline waiting room for 11 hours?
No, they make us look love it,right. Not just like it, they make

(01:00:51):
us love it. And that I thinkthat's the barometer. Like once you
pass that line from like tolove, that's when everything changes.
And that's what I think that,so that's, I think the, honestly
the message to other Companieswho are trying to create a loyal
fandom like this is to makesure that your fans create their

(01:01:12):
own subculture around it.Right. That they belong to, that
they feel defines them. I. SoI'm a big romance novel reader. I
know you're surprised.
I mean, really, who isn't?
Who isn't? But there was.There is this. There's this romance
writer who has asked. Shewrites about a little small town,

(01:01:35):
right? And everybody knowsthat little small town that she writes
about. All of her readers knowthat little small town. And so quiet
village.
Every day is like the. Sorry,I see. I'm a dolt. I just did it.
Oh, Lou. And we. And so whatshe. What she created, she reached
out to her readers and said,hey, we're going to create a cheerleading

(01:01:56):
squad for this town. And youcan be a member of the cheerleading
squad. And basically what youhave to do for the cheerleading squad
is tell other people about thelittle town. And then you get status
as being part of thecheerleading squad and this fandom.
And you are absolutelyproselytizing to all of your friends

(01:02:19):
about this particular writer'swork. And I think that is probably
one of the keys is. Is create.Make sure that your fans create a
living and breathing communityof their own that they are trying
to get status in, and thenthey're trying. That they've created
a hierarchy in and that theyfeel safe within. And then you're.

(01:02:39):
And then you're home free.Right? Like, there you go. And I.
I mean, I don't know thatthere's a Costco adult, you know,
Like, I don't know that thatexists. But the. But Disney has absolutely
allowed this community togrow, and. And. And it has a life
of its own, which I think isproblematic for Disney sometimes.
But I think that's where theloyalty stems from, is that it's

(01:03:03):
not. Not necessarily aboutDisney. It's about the community
we're a part of because of it.
Yeah. And that's. And that'sthe important word. And I say this
all the time, AJ thatunfortunately, sometimes communities
become a marketing buzzword,and it shouldn't be. But from a Disney
perspective, going way back,there was the Mickey Mouse Club,

(01:03:24):
right? There was a sort ofclub you can join, and then it sort
of faded away. It just cameout the of. But then what happened
was we as creators in the late90s, very early 2000s, started to
create our communities of ourown, and there were all these sort
of micro communities poppingup. And I think Dizzy looked at that
and says, there is a desirefor this as well. And just again,

(01:03:49):
I remember. Do you rememberthe whole like, what is 23?
Yes.
Like teasing. And thenDisney's like, they're launching
their community. I'm like,that's brilliant. And now they've
embraced it. And look at. @d23Expo. Look at Desolation D. Look
at the fan events. They'rebringing people together under their
own umbrella while still notexcluding those of us who have created

(01:04:10):
our own sort of microcommunities on our own.
Right. I think they finallyreal. I think back in the day they
didn't realize that that wasactually beneficial to them and now
they have. And so they'rewilling to let us exist and continue
to. To basically free, freelyadvertise for them, which I'm grateful
for. But yeah, no, I thinkthat that's, that's probably the

(01:04:35):
M.O. if I, if I'm, you know,building. If I'm building a company
is to make sure that my, myfans, my, you know, the people that
want the product that I'mcreating also care about each other
and continue to, you know, Iguess, want to spend time together.

(01:04:56):
Because that's just, you know,you just again, it's all about psychology.
It's all about humanity andwhat, what we're all looking for,
which is to be a part of a. Asafe space and a community of other
people who, who are like us,you know. So, yeah, I think that's
probably key.
And I think that. I thinkyou're right. I think community and

(01:05:17):
trust and understanding andbelonging, acceptance are. Are so
very important and that trusthas to be given before it can be
received. And I think you do that.
Yes.
Yeah, you do that in the bookbecause. And I want to bring it back
a little bit to you because Ivery much appreciated that you shared
your own perspectives and yourown lived experiences. Right. You

(01:05:39):
talked about how Disney wasthis and you were very transparent.
And I appreciate that becausehow it was this sort of of emotional
refuge and escape for you anda coping mechanism sometimes, which
I think it is for a lot,especially those of us who live here.
Like, I just need to go. Ijust need a little like, infusion
of Disney. I just need to gothere. And he also talked about,

(01:06:04):
you know, he talked aboutlike, going into credit card debt.
Right. Because of Disney.Because there is almost sort of like
this, you know, drama. I'venever taken drugs, but I'm imagining
it's almost like this druglike feeling and having to balance
this. This obsession andpassion a little bit so it does not

(01:06:25):
become overwhelming. Like that.
Yeah, you, if you, like, weall want to do things that make us
feel good, and if we don'tfeel good in our regular lives, then
we're going to look forsomething out there that does make
us feel good, and we're goingto keep doing that. And so that particular
time in my life when I, when Iwould, you know, I freely admit I
was addicted to and obsessedwith Disney is because everything

(01:06:49):
else going on in my lifewasn't really what I wanted it to
be. And so I was constantlyjust trying to get to the thing that
made me happy and joyful and,and ended up having to, you know,
get myself out of thesituations that I was in so that
I could, you know, find alifestyle that made me happier day

(01:07:10):
to day. But I, but I, youknow, and I talked, I talked to some,
some great therapists in thebook about how do you know if you're
addicted? How do you know ifthis is not something that is healthy
and safe for you in terms ofthe amount of money you're spending
or how you're affecting yourfamily with your Disney obsession?

(01:07:33):
You know what I mean? And so,and again, it's, It's a spectrum.
It, there's no, there's noeasy way to just look at a pinpoint,
a specific thing that says,okay, now you're addicted or you're
obsessed. No, it's, it's not.It's. Are you neglecting other things
in your life because ofwhatever it is you're loving or obsessed

(01:07:55):
with or addicted to? Are youspending money on this that you should
be spending on something else?You know, so it's different for everybody.
Some people are, are. It'sperfectly fine for them to go to
Disney 20 times a year, andthey're perfectly safe and healthy
and, and, and they're notneglecting anything else in their
life. And it's good for somepeople, going once a year is too
much in terms of them, youknow, being able to handle everything

(01:08:19):
else that's going on in theirlives. So it, again, it's a spectrum.
And, you know, again, what Isay in the book is like, dude, there's
no guilt here. There's nonegativity. We have all done things
that we are addicted to orobsessed. Believe me, if anybody
tries to put you down becauseof that, you, you just tell them

(01:08:40):
that they need to reexaminetheir life because we've all done
it. And so it's just, it'sjust understanding, okay, what's
too what, what point is toofar for Me. And, and how do I pull
back from it?
Yeah. And I love that youshare the, the, the, not just the
people, but the process andperspective of putting together a

(01:09:00):
book like this. Because,because this is not just AJ's feeling
about what a Disney adult is.You've talked to Disney adults, you've
talked to people on yourstaff, you've talked to psychiatrists,
you've talked to people. Soyou really do get such a wide variety
of personal and professionalinputs into putting this together
so that you can try and answerall these questions.

(01:09:25):
What do I know? I don't knowanything. I'm just trying to figure
it out, too.
That the secret is we're all,we're all trying to figure it out.
All just trying to figure itout. And that's. And you know, what
you said about, you know, andyou and I have talked about this
many, many times in the pasttoo, is, is that your, your community,
the, the people that followyou, Lou, and, and who trust you

(01:09:49):
and, and know that you arelooking out for their best interests?
Like, that's the mostimportant thing that we, we, we have
built is that we have acommunity that believes we are not
trying to swindle them oranything like that. We are just trying
to, like, be honest with themand truthful and, and gain their
trust and help them in thesame way that they help us. And so

(01:10:10):
I think that that's reallywhat I was trying to do in this book
is like, bring everybody alongwith me as we try to figure this
out. Like, why does, why doesDisney have this control over us
in a way, you know, why. Whydo we love it so much? And the bottom
line is it's not, you know,it's not magic. It makes perfect
sense from a psychologicalperspective and from, and, and in

(01:10:33):
truth, we're very similar to alot of other fandoms. And I think
that that's going to. I thinkthat people are going to continue
to, again, fracture into thesefandom subcultures. These are going
to be your communities in away that your village used to be
your communities. So I thinkit's, it's just going to be, it's
going to be interesting towatch. And I know I, blah, blah all

(01:10:55):
the time, but to me, it's justso. It's so cool to have been able
to dig deep into it and talkto so many people in the community
and know so much more about itnow. And I just wanted to bring everybody
along with me on that.
I have to imagine that asyou're Doing clearly extensive research
and writing that there weresome, like, wow and aha moments.

(01:11:16):
Was there something thatsticks out to you as either the most
surprising that you discoveredor maybe a story or a person that
really maybe stuck with you asepitomizing the subculture?
I. Nothing epitomizes thesubculture. Because it is. I think
that's where people get Disneyadults wrong. Right? Is that they

(01:11:39):
think that the. The personfalling to their knees and crying
in front of the castle is thesubculture. And it's like, no, that's
part of the subculture. Thatgirl exists. She's out there. But
there are so many more. Thereare so many more representations

(01:11:59):
of Disney adulthood across theboard. And that's what I think was
the most important thing toshow is that there's a part of the
book where I'm like, yeah, theguy doing. Doing your colonoscopy
might have a Mickey balloontattoo. You don't know. And. And
we're everywhere. We areliterally everywhere. And.
And the fact that you chosecolonoscopy is both funny and frightening

(01:12:22):
all at the same time.
Listen, man, we're of acertain age, Lou, you and me, so
go get.
Your screening by the go. Ifyou're listening, go get your screening.
If you haven't done, go getyour screen. They give you really
good drugs. You'll sleepthrough the whole thing. But I. I

(01:12:42):
do. The one of the things thatreally surprised me was the whole,
yeah, I don't care about whatanybody else says about me, but I
do care about what Disneyadults say about me. That, to me,
was. Was jarring because. Andyou know, Lou, you and I have been
doing this for a long time. Weare the original Disney adult. I

(01:13:03):
mean, you are the originalDisney adult because I remember sitting
in my bathroom reading yourDisney World trivia.
Well, I know my place in thecircle of life. I know what I'm doing.
That's where you lived for me.But listen, I will tell you, whoever
gets into my bathroom, that'sa good book that I want to read.

(01:13:23):
But I will say that we don'tnecessarily always see it from that
perspective because, you know,we've had a lot of the experiences
that other people will, youknow, our bucket list experiences
for them. And so we don'tnecessarily see that. That negativity
from other Disney adultsbecause we haven't done something
or we don't have the status,you know, and so hearing that and

(01:13:46):
just knowing that thenegativity from external forces mattered
nothing to these people. Itwas just. I Don't like that other
Disney adults are, Are. Arejudging me in this way. That was
really surprising to me. AndI'm like, well, that's a huge bummer,
but I get it. You know, again,that's, like I said, that's junior

(01:14:08):
high. That's, you know, yourchurch community, that's any community
you're a part of that mattersto you. It's going to matter how
they think of you. And sothat, that made perfect sense. So
I, I, again, I shifted how Iwas, how I was researching based
on that.
I have, like, hundreds ofquestions just dancing around in

(01:14:29):
my head. But I also want to berespectful of your time because we
could. I think this is such afascinating topic that the more we
all talk about it together,the more understanding we have. Not
just about who other peopleare, but I think who we are. But
again, I appreciate how muchof AJ Is in this book. Not just sort
of this, you know,sociological look at Disney adults,

(01:14:50):
but if you took away Disneycompletely from your life, the parks,
the films, the memories, like,who would AJ Be? And what I mean
by that is, what do you thinkthat Disney fandom has given you
that you either were lookingfor or you couldn't find somewhere
else?
Oh, everything. It's given meeverything. It's giving me purpose.

(01:15:12):
It's given me a reason to getup in the morning to, you know, the
fact that I can go and turn mymistakes that I make in the parks
into something that's going tohelp. Help other people, save them
money, save them time, youknow, make them have a fabulous trip

(01:15:32):
when they would have had adisastrous trip. I just, to me, being
able to actually help andaffect other people's, you know,
joyful times is everything tome and has been for, like I said
back in the 2000 early 2000s,when I would just read those message

(01:15:52):
words, I just wanted to learnmore. I wanted to learn more because
I wanted to help people. Iactually got banned from a message
board because I was answeringtoo many questions with linking to
other sites, and I wasn'tallowed to link to other sites, apparently.
And so, you know, I. I gotbanned from a message board because

(01:16:13):
I would go. I would just gothrough and try to help answer these
questions.
It's why I started my forum,because the same thing was happening
to me. And I'm like, I wantpeople to share good things from
good people with good people. Yeah.
Like, why wouldn't we do that?So it was, to me, it's everything.
And I think that if. If Iwasn't doing this. I would probably,

(01:16:39):
I would probably be, you know,just studying mid medieval church
history. I don't know, like,but it certainly wouldn't be this
fun and it wouldn't be thisjoyful. And the bottom line for me,
again, like I said, I was at abook signing this weekend and it,
and everybody was like, oh,wow, you know, you're, you're, you
must be so tired from talkingto all these people. And I'm like,

(01:17:01):
oh my gosh, no, this is, thisis why I do this because I want to
hear your stories and talk toyou about, you know, well, which
steak is the best steak at LeCellier. And you know, like, that
to me is just absolute joy.And so it's brought me so much and
continues to bring me so muchhappiness and, and joy. So I'm so

(01:17:23):
glad that I ran my creditcards up to $17,000 and you know,
and was addicted to Disneybecause it's, it's ended in, in,
in this, which has been justan absolute pleasure.
Is there a, is there an AJbefore and after? Right? Because
look, you've been a fan,right? You a super fan and you've
been, been an authoritydocumenting the fandom and sharing

(01:17:43):
it and bringing so much joy topeople with things like Disney food
blog. But has writing Disneyadults changed the way you personally
engage with Disney or Disneyfans? Like, do you still feel the
same magic? Do you see itdifferently now? What does before
and after AJ look like?
I think I just understandthings a lot more than I did. And

(01:18:06):
I'm much, much. I've learnedso much. I've learned so much about
Disney adults, about theculture and something that, you know,
when I was a kid, what Iwanted to, my parents brought me
to Gettysburg for a springbreak trip. And what fascinated me
about Gettysburg was all thestories that hadn't been told. All

(01:18:26):
of the people that livedthrough that battle and were in their
houses around Gettysburg. LikeI, I wanted to, to tell those stories.
And so what this book hasallowed me to do is really give a
little bit more insight intothe Disney adult subculture by telling
stories about, about thepeople that are a part of it. So

(01:18:49):
I've learned so much abouteverybody in here. I've learned a
lot about how imagineers lookat this subculture and how they see
this subculture, which I thinkwas very interesting and the evolution
of it as well. Because I, Idon't think we're done evolving.
I think we are just starting.And so I'm excited to see what happens

(01:19:11):
next. With, with thisparticular group of, of super fans
and friends. And so manypeople have supported one another
in this, in this subculture aswell. So I, I do think this is just
growing to be a very matureand passionate community that cares
about each other as much asthey care about dis. Disney. So before
and after AJ is just. I just,I. I've. I've learned so much and

(01:19:34):
I have so much more of a lovefor the community than I even did
before, which sounds like acop out, but it's true.
No, and that's, and that's,you know, that's the answer I was
hoping for. Right? Becausesometimes when something becomes
work, you like, you look at itdifferently. Because now, like, this
is my job and you've neverbeen like that. And you know, look,
there are, and in a good way,there are just like Disney fandom,

(01:19:55):
there are countless books,books about Disney and Disney parks
and movies, but there'snothing like this. Right? There is
no sort of examination of thefandom the same way. And the response
to the book is very, very welldeserved. And so to sort of bring
the two AJ worlds together tocelebrate your book release. Disney

(01:20:18):
Springs. I loved seeing this.Disney Springs. A number of restaurants
in Disney Springs featuredspecial Disney adult themed drinks
and treats. So if you had topick one Disney park snack or meal
or drink that best capturesthis spirit of being a Disney adult,
what would it be? And why.

(01:20:41):
The spirit of being a Disneyadult? I. This is. I wish you'd told
me you were gonna ask me this question.
I didn't think about it untilright now. Now.
Okay, good. I would choose adole whip and here's why.
Plant that flag. Go ahead.

(01:21:02):
I think that dole whip hasevolved to be so many different things.
You can have the float, youcan have different flavors, you can
get it in so many differentplaces. You know, it used to be just.
You'd get a dole whip float,Aloha aisle, the end back when Aloha
aisle with Sunshine TreeTerrace. And. And that was, you know,

(01:21:22):
and that was it. And now itjust. That whole thing has grown
so much and Dole whip,everybody knows what a dole whip
is and they know where you canget them and you can get them in
places without a park ticketor you can, you know, whatever. So
it's sort of become indicativeof Disney and that's sort of how
the Disney adult community hasgrown as well. Like, I think that
back in the day there wasprobably just a certain kind of Disney

(01:21:44):
adult in. And now we're justthe community has grown so much.
We're all different. Andthere's lots of different flavors
of Disney adults.
There is. And you know what?There's no one flavor that's better
than, like, that's right.Disney has. You know, I just. I just
talked about this on anotherinterview. Like, I keep thinking,

(01:22:05):
as somebody who admittedly wasnot the most popular kid in grammar
school, high school, college,law school, whatever, it doesn't
matter. Disney was always thissort of place that everyone is welcome,
everybody belongs, everybodyhas a place with no judgment, with
no nothing. And, like, I keepthinking about the song, like, God
help the Outcast, but he has.And he's brought us all together

(01:22:28):
in this place where no matterwhere your fandom lies, no matter
what your Disney fandom looksor feels like to you personally,
inwardly, outwardly, like,there is a place for you here. And
I think that is the beauty ofDisney. It is why I love this so
much, and I love this place somuch, and I love this book. It's
Disney adults exploring andfalling in love with a magical subculture.

(01:22:51):
A.J. wolf, tell people wherethey can get the book and anything
else that you want to shareabout. If you have any upcoming book
signings, appearances, or ifthey could just come to your house
and get it signed there.
Yeah, you definitely can. Youcan get the book anywhere you buy
books. Amazon, Barnes NobleBooks, A Million Target, all those
places. If you want a signedcopy, you can go to my website, DFBstore.com

(01:23:16):
and order a signed copy. I'vegot, like hundreds of books piled
up on my dining room tablethat I go through and I sign so you
can get that. It's a greatgift. If you're not a Disney adult,
you can get it for your Disneyadult friend. And I got a book signing
in Jonesboro, Arkansas onSaturday, but I don't know if you'll.
This will go out. Out by then,but looking into other book signings,

(01:23:40):
because I do think that thoseare. Those just fill my heart with
so much joy to meet the peoplethat are reading the book and liking
it and helps me with myimposter syndrome. So I want to do
a lot more book signings if I.If I can. So stay tuned to our Instagram
and website for thatinformation. But, yep, that's what
we got.

(01:24:01):
You know, Walt talked about,you can design and build the most
magical place on earth, but ittakes people to make a dream reality.
I think that's very applicableto cast members. I also think it's
applicable to you and me andevery other Disney fan and Disney
adult out there. We don't justgo for the place, but we go for the
people. AJ I am so happy forand proud of you and grateful to

(01:24:24):
you and for you for not justwhat you've been doing for so many
years.
What 2009 you started foodquality 2009 I started, yes.
What you do with the book. Itis a fascinating read. Absolutely.
Pick it up and hopefully ifthis wasn't too painful for you,
you will come back and wewill. There's so much more I still
want to talk to you about. Notjust about Disney adults, but certainly

(01:24:44):
about Disney too. That isreally, that's really the thing.
That brings us every day.
You are awesome. But.
Thanks Blue. So are you.
It's time for this week'sDisney Trivia Challenge where you

(01:25:05):
can test your knowledge of thesights, sounds, secrets, stories
and history of the Disneyparks. If you think you know the
answer, you can enter for achance to win a Disney Prize package.
This week's trivia question isbrought to you by the Walt Disney
World Swan and Dolphin Foodand Wine Classic. If you love coming
to Epcot for the foodfestivals, including the Epcot International
National Food and WineFestival in the fall and have never

(01:25:26):
been over to the Walt DisneyWorld Swan and Dolphin Food and Wine
Classic, you are missing outbecause this is my favorite foodie
event of the year. This yearit's happening once again, November
15th and 16th. It's a Fridayand Saturday night right in the heart
of Walt Disney World. It is anamazing night of unlimited, let me
say that again, unlimitedamazing world class food, drinks,

(01:25:49):
live music and entertainment.Entertainment from the restaurants
inside the Walt Disney WorldSwan and Dolphin like Kimono's, Todd
English's Blue Zoo, the brandnew Chef Mina Bourbon Steak and much,
much more. More importantly,did I mention that it's unlimited
food and beverages with oneticket? Because the event is ticketed,
it's more intimate and not ascrowded as a typical Saturday night
in Epcot. During a food andwine festival, there are wines and

(01:26:11):
beers and creative cocktailsfrom around the world. There's live
music on the beautifulcauseway. It's all outside. It is
a great night with friends,date night, a combination of the
two, or even going solo. Itreally is one of the highlights of
my year. And if you loveDisney, love food and just having
a great time, you will love ittoo. Tickets are on sale now. You
can get all the detailsover@swandolphin foodandwineclassic.com

(01:26:35):
and I hope to see you on TheCauseway this November. Now, before
we get to this week'squestion, let's go back review last
week and select our winner. Solast week we were talking about destination
D23, and the question was totell me, in what year did D23 first
launch? Thanks to all of youwho entered, got this one correct,
shared some memories and evenphotos of your first D23 Expo or

(01:26:58):
event. But of course, D23launched around some shrouded mystery,
asking the question, are you23? In March of 2009, CEO Bob Iger
announces as the firstofficial community for Disney fans
to not only celebrate thecompany's heritage, but more importantly,
offer fans inside accessthrough the magazine, through collectibles

(01:27:19):
and exclusive member events.It's also that same year that they
announced the inaugural D23Expo in Anaheim, which has now become
the ultimate Disney fangathering. And I think over the years,
true to its name, it reallyhas continued to evolve to a true
community. Community. Anyway,I took all the correct entries, randomly
selected one, and last week,you were playing for a WW Radio keychain
sticker pin and a mysteryprize that I brought for you from

(01:27:43):
Destination D23. And lastweek's winner, randomly selected
is Brianna Oliveira. So,Brianna, congratulations. I'll get
your prize packet out to youright away. And if you played last
week and didn't win, that'sokay, because here's your next chance
to enter in this week's WaltDisney Disney World Trivia Challenge.
So let's go over to Epcot thisweek, just as I did earlier in the

(01:28:05):
week. Actually, I went onWednesday for our WTI Radio live
broadcast. But also, as wewere talking about with aj I just
needed a little bit of thatinfusion of Disney magic. So I wanted
to go to a park that I loveand one of the places that I love,
which is, of course, the JapanPavilion. And I was thinking about
as I was walking out at night,the evolution of the different nighttime
spectaculars. So your questionthis week is to tell me what is the

(01:28:27):
name of the very firstnighttime spectacular in Epcot Center?
What was the name of the veryfirst nighttime spectacular in Epcot
Center? Now, you're going tohave a little bit or a lot of bit
of extra time to answer thisone. Not because it's super challenging
and you have to do a lot ofresearch, but starting this weekend,
I'm going to be traveling toParis, France, not Texas, for our

(01:28:48):
WW Radio Group Adventures byDisney River Cruise on the Scent.
Then we're also going to kickit off before with a couple of days
in Paris and then finish itoff after the cruise with a few days
in Disneyland Paris. I will ofcourse be sharing all of my experiences
with you online, primarily onInstagram. So follow me and turn
on notifications at lumangelo.And then I'm going right from France

(01:29:09):
to New England where I'm goingto be speaking at a conference. So
you're going to have untilSunday. All this to say you're going
to have until Sunday, October5th at 11:59 from Eastern to go to
WWradio.com click on thisweek's podcast. Use the form there.
And this week you're not justgoing to play for the keychain, the
stickers, the pin and a littleWWE Radio prize package. But while
I'm in Disneyland Paris, Iwill buy something specifically for

(01:29:32):
a contest prize. This maybeagain the week after as well. So
good luck. I don't know how tosay that in French. And have fun.
That is going to do it forthis week's show. Thank you again
so very much for listening andbeing part of the WW Radio family.

(01:29:54):
I am so grateful for you. Ihope you found some magic in this
week's show and if you enjoyedit, please help spread the word,
share the show and tell afriend if you share it on social
tag me, I am and I will notonly follow you back, but make sure
I reshare it as well. Onceagain, thank you so much for sharing
your time time with me. I knowthat it is the most valuable thing
that you have and I do nottake that for granted. Always remember,

(01:30:17):
lead with kindness and byexample and choose the good. I love
and appreciate you. So untilnext time, see you.
Well, it sounds pretty good.
In fact, that's just the right spirit.

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842 · Disney Adults: Fandom, Identity, and the Magic of Never Growing Up

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}842 · Disney Adults: Fandom, Identity, and the Magic of Never Growing Up