September 13, 2024 • 39 mins
After earnings failed to reassure investors about their concerns around generative AI's return on investment, NVIDIA's stock suffered a record $279 billion loss in the space of a day. Nevertheless, the most important NVIDIA story is that of Chief Executive Jensen Huang, who appears to be one of the few tech executives that knows how to dress himself. In this episode, Ed Zitron is joined by fashion expert Derek Guy (AKA @dieworkwear on Twitter) to talk about Jensen's swag, and why more men should find ways to enjoy fashion.
Derek on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dieworkwear
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Better Offline, iHeartRadio's premium tech podcast.
They're very serious one too. What and after earnings failed
to reassure investors about their concerns around general if AI's
(00:26):
return on investment, Nvidious stock has suffered a record two
hundred and seventy nine billion dollar loss in one day's trading.
It's truly truly crazy. And today we're talking about the
most important story in Nvidia, which is of course chief
executive Jensen Wang and his wonderful swag. He this man
knows how to dress, which can be rare in the
tech industry. But I've brought in mementswear expert Derek Guy
(00:50):
to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So Jensen looks good, But how would you describe his general.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially
ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy,
possibly having effects in politics. You know, many fear that
this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment
and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the
(01:22):
United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character.
I think he's very stylish, But he kind of dresses
a bit like an evil character because he does these
kind of all black outfits with these most of them
look like to be cowhide or look like cowhide, possibly
go hide leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets. But it's
(01:43):
always this kind of very sleek, all black look that
you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of
ominous evilness.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, and I always thought it was kind of more
of a biker look. But what is he do you
think even going for? Here? Is it? Do you think
he's going for evil or is he just trying to
be a certain kind of cool. No.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind
of coal, a biker kind of edgy character, and I
think he pulls it off well. I think he's actually
one of the few. I think there's a low bar
for tech guys, but he actually, I think, clears the
bar to be a pretty stylish figure.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into
what kinds that? I know you've talked about materials, But
what is it about these cuts exactly? And these do
you know the brands at all?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect
that they're custom made for him. They fall very well
on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a
tailor jacket or a parker or a leather jacket, everything
hangs from the shoulders, and if the shoulders are not
cut right, then it's just the jacket's not gonna fit well.
And his jackets fit very well in that Essentially he
(02:56):
gets a very nice kind of upside down vs for
the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well, and
the cut is done intentionally to create that kind of
a little bit more angular look. Some of his jackets,
I believe from memory, have what's called a long front balance.
(03:16):
So when you're looking at a jacket from the side,
it's always fine for the front ham the front of
the hem to be lower or even with the back,
but you never want the front of the jacket to
be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't
think of many exceptions to this rule. But his jackets
are cut such that he gets very very on some
(03:39):
of the jackets, not all of them. On some of
the jackets he gets very low front balance, and it
looks very stylish that way. It's just a little bit
more of a stylized look. It's clearly I think he
hired somebody to style him. His suits generally also fit
very well, and my guess is that he just doesn't
want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time,
(04:04):
and this allows him to stick with a singular look
and look pretty good in public life.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's
whole whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people,
by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical
evaluation of these people. This is this their take. But Zuckerberg,
for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy,
and I think people people think people underplay how much
(04:31):
of that goes into the fashion of these tech entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the
history of kind of the impact the tech industry has
had on fashion, so or men's fashion specifically. I mean,
if you think of basically post war era in the
United States, the suit has been kind of declining since
the nineteen sixties and seventies, the suit became too tied
(04:54):
with the establishment, and after kind of student war protests,
freedom movements, the Watergate scandal. People really did not want
to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second
World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and
started to take on different types of casual, often casual
that represented the working class. But I think there was
(05:16):
a major shift starting in the nineties after the tech
boom and the rise of Silicon Valley kind of billionaires. Essentially,
it wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable.
It's that another form of fashion became very desirable, and
that fashion was the kind of like hoodie gens uniform
(05:38):
that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable
in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of
new meritocracy to say that we don't que to the
kind of traditionalism of industries back East. We're in California,
shaking up the economy, and the only thing that matters
is your skills. You know. SBF basically adopted this kind
(06:04):
of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he dressed he
did not dress very well, And I think part of
that was this act to say, I am so in
the world of intellectual thought and coding, and I only
care about meritocracy that I can't spare a single thought
to how I dress. But in reality, this uniform, this
(06:27):
hoodie and Jean's uniform, especially in the tech industry, became
its own kind of norm, such that it wasn't just
that people didn't care about fashion. It's that dressing a
certain way signal that you were part of the group,
part of the crowd. And now we see that the
original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking
(06:50):
I don't want to say, you know, they're not. Mark
Zuckerberg is not transforming his look, but at least since
the fall of last year, he certainly has taken a
slightly larger in and his luck, and he's transforming his
look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish,
and I think that that signals a naturally significant change
in how the tech industry thinks about fashion, and then
(07:12):
also how that is impacting the larger cultural space.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, I didn't really think about it. But Zuckerberg, he
he is kind of he's dressing like a man dressed
up as a nineties rapper at times, but he seems
to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes,
at least like it looked what he is wearing looks
nicer hangs on him better versus feeling like And I
admit before this goal, I didn't really think about how
(07:37):
performative the I'm not really trying look is. But it
seems like he's trying now, and I wonder if that
is trying to sigle a shift in the industry at
least with him.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know, I'm not really quite sure what is his deal.
There have been multiple articles written about his style. For
a while, it was rumored that all of his T
shirts were his gray T shirts were from Kuchinelli and
they bought them from Milk's Bashford in San Francisco. I
can't remember the price of the T shirts, but it
was rumored that he was spending something like a thousand
(08:09):
or two thousand dollars on hoodies and like seven hundred
dollars on T shirts. That was published again somewhere, and
I want to say it was maybe the cut, but
afterwards Mark Coodie's I'm sorry, Mark Coody. Mark Zuckerberg's team
reached out to the writer to clarify to say that
he does not, in fact buy all of his hoodies
from books Bashford, and that he did buy one once
(08:32):
but then just never did again, but he listed the
names of where he gets his clothing, and they were
pretty kind of I would say, in the know brands,
not super fashionable, but relatively in the know. So he
named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very
in the know. I think some other brands that escape
(08:55):
escape me at the moment, but these these brands essentially
are very rarely sold in just one store, So I
thought he was working with a stylist. His team denies
that he works with a stylist, but the difference of
his clothes is that they are a little bit more
in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if
you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his
(09:18):
Instagram handle is Zuck, you'll see that starting in I
will say, like October or November of last year, his
wardrobe dramatically changed. So before he wore pretty kind of
standard T shirts, jeans, sometimes a sweatshirt, and the cut
was pretty basic. The shoulders seems sat on his shoulder bone,
(09:41):
you know, like slim straight jeans. It's so very very
basic kind of look. But then starting in October and November,
you start to see the cuts change. He wore a
drop shoulder scene. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves
would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist.
What else was he wearing? He was obviously he adopted
a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think
(10:02):
in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate, And I
think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid
to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think
he looks better for it.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what
a silhouette is. When you think of one as a
person buying clothes.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's
fit and there's silhouette. Fit is I think a very
you should think of it in very narrow terms. So
to give an example, when you are, let's say, buying
a button up shirt, if you can't button up the shirt,
it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and
(10:45):
the collar lists from your neck even when you're not moving,
it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you
can't button the pants, they don't fit. Silhouette is slightly different.
Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all
of the details in the outfit and you were just
to think of the outfit in terms of shapes. Think
(11:06):
of it as an outline that is basically the silhouette
of the garment. So in that sense, sometimes you know,
when people see like pants that are very crop they say, oh, well,
those don't fit. Not necessarily. Sometimes pants are designed to
be very cropped, and that's part of the silhouette. Sometimes
sleeves are meant to stack around the on the wrist.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It's just part of the look when you say, what
do you mean? Sorry, So if you're.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Wearing a very long sleeve shirt, for example, if you
if you go to a bespoke tailor to give an example,
and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they
would design the shirt in such a way that the
cuffs stay stationary on your wrists even when you move
your arms. So that means that the sleeve length is
(11:56):
a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, when
you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However,
some designers such as John Elliott I'm trying to think
of some other bahrain as another designer that does this,
probably rick Ohens assume because he does these very long
drap silhouettes. The sleeve is so long that essentially you
(12:20):
get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking
around your wrist and it's just part of the look.
It doesn't have to be that close fit. Only in
one singular way, silhoette allows you to think of an
outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit
more creativity.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
When you think about getting creative with outfits, I feel
like you don't think of Silicon Valley. It feels that
while there is some of the performative, I'm just a
regular guy thing. I'm focused on my merit. I also
feel like, especially in such a male dominated culture and
especially now in the Valley, there's a lot of this
masculine kind of Oh, you want to be a big,
(13:06):
tough guy, and fashion is not for tough guys, and
I feel like it deprives them of something, It deprives
them as something they could really enjoy, Like, there are
so many parts of the Valley that enjoy I don't know,
building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the
architecture work. Yeah, the idea of doing so esthetically is
somehow feminine. It just feels like a loss for them.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I am a strong believer that you don't have
to pay attention to clothes or I think people are
generally aware of clothes to some degree, I think, more
than they.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Like to wry am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But I don't think anyone has to take a great
interest in their wardrobe. And I'm very strong believer that
you should never judge a person's deeper and more important
inner qualities based on their dress. But I do think
that if you I think of dress as sort of
like eating, Like I have to eat to survive, and
I have to dress to go outside. And if I
(13:54):
have to do these things, you know, I think it's
nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And
I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me
feel good versus something that makes me feel bad, something
that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing
to my life. And buying those items, you know, if
(14:14):
you're like really deep into it, like it's you know,
like basically a core part of my life, then certainly
can take a lot of time. But it doesn't have
to take a lot of your time. And if you
just buy things that you like and make you happy.
I think that just adds something to the beginning of
your day.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, and it's something to enjoy about your persona, and
a lot of these people are quite focused on their
identity as well. And but one of the reasons I
had you on here is I've got into clothes recently.
It's crazy way to word it, but the idea of
being able to dress yourself in a way that makes
you feel good about yourself is fun and I think
that societally, especially well definitely with men, there's this push
(14:50):
away from it. But it also I'm glad you mentioned
what you did there. It isn't about necessarily putting a
ton of attention in, it's feeling good about what you're wearing.
The only time I've really thought of this happening in
the valley at scale. Are you familiar with American giant hoodies. Yeah,
So there was this weird, long period like a year
or two when everyone wanted one. They were like actually
(15:12):
quite hard to get there with these very heavy hoodies.
And that was the only time I think there's been
like a known aesthetic discussion in the valley. And it's
so it's something I think everyone could enjoy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, I mean a hoodie is a perfect example. I
like Camber. Camber. American John also makes good hoodies. I'm
not knocking them. Camber is another one that makes these
very stout hoodies.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I like hoodies, and I think when you put I
dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body,
and I like a thicker, kind of rumor hoodie. And
that's just personal preference. If someone likes the thinner hoodies,
that's fine too. I just think when you are paying
attention to these things, you know, I don't know, when
you walk around, you feel a little bit better when
(15:55):
you see yourself in the mirror. You like how you look,
You feel a little bit more confident. I think of
it just like it's just like cooking. You know, you
could eat boiled potatoes, but you know you could also
throw some seasoning in and it will taste better.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So yeah, So actually that this is a good question.
How can you dress like a hoodie, for example, and
look fashionable and field well, not fashionable is probably the
wrong word. What's a good fun way to dress with
a hoodie, I guess is what I'm asking.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So I'm I sort of feel that when we talk
about aesthetics. In this sense, there is one aesthetic that
most people agree looks good, and that tends to be
aesthetics that are part of the hedgemonic culture. So the suit,
for example, most people when they see a man in
the suit, they if the suit is assuming, it's cut well,
and it you know, fits well in all of these things,
(16:46):
they usually say, oh, that person looks good, right, And
it's sort of like how received pronunciation. Even if you
dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone
recognizes that, like, oh yeah, that's like the hegemonic you know,
way of speaking, and it sounds good. Once you break
out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all
(17:08):
these niche territories and there are gonna be a lot
of people that don't like how something sounds or how
something looks. And that's the same with you know, pronunciations
of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies,
I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very
classic workwhere look, so that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues,
(17:31):
if you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if
it's if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged
chino styled after the mid nineteenth century Army chinos that
were issued to US vets, versus the very kind of
like business casual look. And then you know, like service boots,
blundstones for a jacket if it's if the weather allows
(17:54):
you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then
trucker jackets, bombers, chortcoats, like anything that seems rugged. Double
knee car heartpants also go really well with hoodies. But
again recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic
aesthetics and culture and all these representations, there are a
lot of people who say, oh, well, you know that
(18:16):
there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability
based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions,
which I don't adhere to. But I think aesthetically that
kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Really good, and there's nothing about a look like that
that has to be schlubby, and I think that that's
what people associate with sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
True, although I don't have a problem with looking schlubby,
I think you can be schlubby and also be stylish.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
There are ways to wear sweatpants school, though I've get
to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes,
he mostly just looks like jeans, leather jacket, and black shirt. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted
his look, and you can kind of do easy comparisons
to see why his works better. So when you take it,
when you look at Jensen Wong, if you pull up
photos of him, and you can also compare his look
to Sequoia partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty
similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black teas, and
(19:17):
black jeans. But as jackets just don't fit as nicely.
They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like you know,
it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but
his does not look bagging in an intentional, thoughtful way.
It's just kind of like a limp limp jacket that
hangs on him. And then when you look at Jensen Wong,
there are very strong angular lines that just make him
(19:41):
look better for lack of a better word. And yeah,
I think Jensen just happens. I assume because of his
immense wealth. I assume he just you know, hired a
stylist to help him with this part of his life.
When you look at early photos of him, he dressed
as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts,
(20:02):
Gino's jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in
this way he looks great. I will say that there
was a moment, maybe like ten years ago instill somewhat today,
where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching Taylor
jackets meaning sport codes toit jackets, blazers and the like,
(20:25):
and substituting them for black double riders. And this was
right around the time that black double riders started to
become a fashion trend.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And what is a black double rider?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
A black double rider is, So there are two main
types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the
cafe racer. That's a single I don't I don't know
if it's called a single breasted, but you can think
of it in terms of a single breasted. As the
zip enclosure goes up and down, the center of the
body usually has a band caller meant to fit very
(20:56):
tight on the body. And then the double rider is
is what you think of when you think of Marlon
Brando and the Wild One, think of shot perfectos and
as an asymmetrical zip, and usually a deep pocket on
one side has lapels. And I would say, like in
twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, when Eddie Slamaine was appointed creative
(21:19):
director at Saint Laurent's, he and Kanye actually popularized the
black double writer as a fashion piece. And they made
it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned
to fashion piece by kind of making them out of
softer lambskin leathers, so that was kind of clear that
the person was wearing it for stala and not for
(21:40):
just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion
conscious men, but it was especially popular among women who
are seeking an alternative to a tailor jacket.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And one of the.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Interesting things is that for the period of I want
to say, like maybe two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen
to maybe about twenty nineteen twenty twenty, figures like AOC
Cindy McCain, multiple CEOs that are the CEO of if
(22:14):
I remember correctly, Hewlett Packard, I think maybe one of
the American car companies, all of them start to wear
double riders in somewhat like professional settings, like when they're
doing television interviews. I think AOC may have even warned
a double rider into congress and it was considered a
form of professional dress. And I think it's interesting when
(22:35):
I see Jensen wearing a leather jacket in this manner,
that communicates not It doesn't communicate dangerous rebel. It communicates professionalism,
put togetherness. I think it's interesting that comes after that
kind of moment where women made it somewhat normal in
(22:56):
professional spaces.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I wonder if puff it's his, it is also the silhouette.
It's the fact it fits in the same way. Maybe
you're the expert here, but in the same way. You
say that kind of suits give you an air of respectability,
in part because they usually the fit is quite good,
the silhouette's good. Maybe it's something like that, because he
looks well put together. He doesn't look like he just
(23:19):
got off a bike, right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Right, Yeah, No, I think he looks great. He's of
all of the tech people, high profile tech people that
have tried to improve the look, I think he's the
most successful. The other one that comes to mind is
I'm probably going to Butcher's name, and I apologize if
he happens to be listening. But Adam OSERI I believe
he's the president of Instagram. He has He has an
(23:44):
Instagram account under his last name of Sari, and you
can see many of his looks there. His looks are
a lot more They're less edgy, a little bit more
kind of I don't want to call them basic, but
they are. I think they're more approachable for many guys.
Instead of like a basic button up shirt, he'll wear
a camp collar instead of like the pollos that you
(24:05):
see at Lacoste. He wears Polos with a skipper collar,
which is I think a little bit more of a
stylish collar. He often layers with the jacket. He also,
like Mark Zuckerberg, wears a gold chain and all of
these kind of touches I think make him look a
little bit better than most tech figures.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
So something you said on Twitter maybe a month ago,
maybe I'm butchering the timeline here is that men kind
of get trapped in these tropes and they don't do
more fun things like jewelry. What are some other fun
things that men can actually do and bring into their wardrobe.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, I always tell you guys to start first with
thinking of fashion as social language, so don't think of
it as just a random creative expression. So you know
Jensen Huong, for example, we've been talking about him during
this podcast, whereas you know these black biker style leather jackets,
black t shirt and black jeans, often black boots, So
(25:15):
it would be it would ruin the look if all
of a sudden he tied like a colorful I don't know,
a colorful neck tie around his belt loops, you know,
like that would just be right look, It would ruin
the look. I would say for many guys, start thinking
about fashion and social language in that sense, think of
the different kind of forms of forms that that language
(25:38):
can take. So you know, you have to find an
aesthetic that speaks to you that could be like punk, skate,
work wear, prep, whatever, haven't guard, whatever it may be,
and then dress with that type of intentionality. Dress with
that aesthetic in mind. Don't be afraid of I think
when guys are shopping for a jacket, they they go
(26:00):
wrong when they shop for the blandest form of a jacket,
And what they should do is just think of the
look that they want to create. And find the jacket
that communicates that look. So it's it's more about thinking
of an outfit the way that you would think about
how to write a sentence, and less about like throwing
(26:21):
paint on canvas, for example. Think of the sentence that
you want to write, and then find ways to buy
clothes and create outfits that essentially communicate something as a
sentence would.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, and I guess express meaning that you want to
just visually like almost like a costume, but not not
exactly like you're pretending to be something. Yeah, And I think.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That's fine to where things that you know allow you
to explore different facets of your identity. I think as
a as a general matter, most guys can benefit from
wearing a layering piece that usually improves a look.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I would not buy just just real basic What do
you mean by a layering piece?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
So if you think of a guy in chinos and
a T shirt or a button up shirt and sneakers,
you know, even if it fits well, it's kind of
a basic locus. There's not going to be a lot
going on, so he would look a lot better usually
if he has a finishing layer. That could be like
when you look at Adamos series Instagram. That can be
anything from like a chunky textured cardigan to a cool jacket.
(27:23):
Sometimes when it's too hot to wear a layering piece,
you can do it with very lightweight layers. So in
the summertime, or if you happen to live in a
climate that's very warm, you can do a layering piece
just by wearing T shirts and then layering a short sleeve,
open kind of shirt. Or it could be a shambray
shirt like a work shirt. You could even do a
(27:44):
kind of like reverse layer. So for example, if you
imagine a Western denim button up shirt and a pair
of jeans, that looks fine. But then if you want
to create a more layered look unbuttoned, a few buttons
on the Western button up shirt they're in a rib
tank and then possibly even a gold chain and that
will look better. I think when you create these layers,
(28:07):
create a little bit more visual interest that helps. Instead
of wearing you know, Plaine Smooth Merino v Next and
Crew Next sweaters that you find at the mall, get
a textured sweater, so like a rib sweater or a
Shetland sweater or anything with a bit of texture on it.
When you again going back to Adam Mosteria, when you
go to Instagram and you look at sweaters, they're often
(28:29):
they often have a bit of texture. Anything to add
those elements, a bit of texturing, a bit of layering,
I think will help an outfit.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's and I think a little bit of it is
kind of relaxing. Also just accepting that, like people get
the people can do whatever they want. It's their own thing,
and that there is no there is only you. And
but the one question that I always come back to
with shopping in general is how, like what is the thing?
How do you even start finding clothes that actually fit?
(29:01):
Like all their stores you recommend that have people that
will help, like Nordstrom, I know has some. It's just
that I know most people myself included listening to this
probably can't afford like a custom leather jacket for example.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Right again, it really comes back to the look that
you want to create. If you decide if you're I
would start collecting photos of esthetics that you like, and
over time themes will emerge. And let's say, if for example,
you prefer a very kind of like preppy look, then
maybe you go to j Crue. If you have a
(29:34):
little bit more money to spend. Maybe you do Todd Snyder,
although they're not really preppy, they're preppy adjusting it. I
suppose I guess Americana the vaguest term I can give fit.
But let's say you want a little bit more of
a rugged biker look, then maybe you go to Self Edge.
If you want a very minimalist look, maybe you look
(29:55):
at Lamaire and you know there are going to be
kind of more affordable. Some listeners are going to look
up Lamire and be like, this guy really recommended a
shop that tells, you know, like six hundred dollars pants.
But if you can't afford Lamire, then you can go
to a store named costs CS and they have closed
that are like Lamaire. Or you could look at Lamaire's
(30:17):
collaboration with Uniclo and they have a line called you
Just Simply You, and that will have many of Lamaire's shapes,
but in more not only affordable prices, but more affordable
material so that you're not paying for like a silk
shirt for example. And yeah, I think you start with
the aesthetic that you want to create and then find
(30:39):
stores that specialize in that look. And one way is
if you find a store or brand that you really like,
go to their Instagram account, click the tag section, and
then you'll see a bunch of people who are posting
photos of outfits with those garments. Then you can not
(30:59):
only follow the people that are stylish that you would
like to kind of emulate, but you can also look
at the other brands that they're wearing. So let's say
you find that you really like prep and you discover
a store called Sidmashburn, which is really good for that look,
and you go to Sidmashin's Instagram and you click the
tag section. You see all these people wearing Sidmashburn stylish ways,
(31:23):
and you click their photos and you find out, oh,
I can also check out I don't know mercer for
button down shirts and Ratio clothing for you know, chinos
and other types of button ups. That's a way that
you can essentially discover new brands and then go deeper
in the wrap. You know, on those pages, you can
colick the tag seession, you start following certain accounts, you
(31:45):
learn about certain brands, and you start saving photos. You
can either bookmark them in Instagram or you can save
them on your phone. Or your computer or whatever. And
I think over time you just start refining your tape
and figuring out what works for you. It obviously helps
if you can if you're lucky enough, This does not
always work, but if you can find people online that
(32:09):
are built similar to you, So if you're a heavier guy,
it certainly helps to find if you can find guys
that are built like you on Instagram, because then you
can see what brands they're buying. Yeah, so I would
start there. I would start thinking about fashion and social language.
Look up brands, look up those accounts, find stylish people,
(32:29):
follow them, save photos, and then over time you'll figure
out which toures to to check out.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And now the final question, how do you go and
buy a leather jacket? Where would you start? If you
want to be like Jensen? Is this? Can I get?
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Can I get deep in the in the in the absolutely?
Okay if you're I'm very excited that you asked this question.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Say, first and foremost, you have to understand that leather
is just a material. It's like wool, like cotton. So
it's sort of like when someone asks how do I
buy a leather jacket? That's as vegue as asking how
do I buy a wool jacket a cotton jacket? The
first question is always right, what kind of style? What
kind of aesthetic do you want to do? And let's
say the person is, you know, they fancy themselves as
(33:22):
a real rugged, tough guy, you know, works with their hands,
loves I don't know, fixing motorcycles or whatever. Well, then
probably for you, I would recommend a tougher leather jacket,
maybe in a motorcycle style, so that would tend to
be materials like coat skin, cowhide. Those types of jackets
(33:45):
will look heavier and more like armor, for example. And
if someone was searching for that, I'd recommend them to
self Edge, Standard and Strange probably carry some leather jackets.
I would recommend they check out Shots, which is a
classic leather jacket maker, Lewis Leathers, Snake Oil Provisions. All
of those shops have those styles. And then additionally they
(34:09):
have the types of clothes that you can wear with
that leather jacket. So they'll have the right flannel shirts
and the right jeans and the right boots. You don't
have to buy the entire look from one store, but
you know, when you go in that store and you
figure like, oh, this is the way I put together
that look. Then, but you know, the flannel shirts don't
fit me. You can look somewhere else for shirts that
have those qualities. But let's say you're not that type
(34:32):
of guy and you think of yourself as kind of
like I don't know, like a like the type of
guy that visits wine bars, right, and you you love
listening to, like I don't know, classical music or whatever,
and you and you you think you look at brands
like Laura Piano and you think that's your lifestyle. Well,
(34:53):
then you probably want a leather jacket that's made out
of softer materials, not that kind of like tough, rugged
armor like material So you're going to be looking at,
for example, like Lambskin, and for that I would check
out Valstar, which is an Italian brand. They do an
A one bomber that's very quote unquote cityfied out of
softer materials. That type of jacket goes really well with
(35:16):
Taylor trousers, like dress shirts, Shetland sweaters, chuck of boots,
things like that. Who else does leather jackets like that?
I assume mister Porter's in house line mister P is
kind of they do these kind of like afford and
(35:37):
I wouldn't call them affordable, but they're more affordable versions
of the designer lines that they sell, and mister P
will probably have designs like that. Let's say you are
you don't think of yourself as either a wine bar guy,
and you don't think of yourself as like the rugged
motorcycle guy. You think of yourself as just kind of
like a normal dad. You know, You're just like a
(36:00):
normal dude. You don't have these strong associations. Well, then
I would maybe check out, you know, instead of like
a double rider, which I like, but you know, double
rider has loaded with a little bit more meaning. So
instead of a double Rider, then maybe you can look
at bomber jackets. So either an A one bomber or
an A two bomber, and those are you know, those
(36:22):
are a little bit more neutral. I think in terms
of styling, I would look at buzz Rickson does some
repo preprom bombers that people could check out. Double RL
probably has some reprom bombers. You can also just go vintage,
go to a vintage shop check out like a g
one Bomber for example, and a one and a two
(36:43):
is a little bit like it's very very dad, but
a G one has a furry caller essentially that I
think looks a little bit more charming. And you know,
you could wear that with like sweatshirt jeans, and it's
not as if you're a guy that does not identify
(37:06):
as wine bar or motorcycle jacket or motorcycle dude, then
a bomber jacket might be your thing.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. This
has been so wonderful. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
They can find me on Twitter at the handle die Workwear,
and then also write on my own blog, which is
dieworkware dot com, and also do a lot of writing
for a website called put this on, which you can
go to put this on dot com. That's where most
of my service writing is. And if they go there
they click the start here button, they can look at
like a whole bunch of articles that can get them
started to trust them better.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Thank you so much, and everyone, thank you for listening.
And then you're gonna complain that you're gonna hear me
say thank you for listening again, but that's your problem.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
On Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
T O S O W s ki dot com. You
can email me at easy at Better offline dot com
or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast
links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend
(38:21):
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visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline
to check out our reddit.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a
production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Better Offline, iHeartRadio's premium tech podcast.
They're very serious one too. What and after earnings failed
to reassure investors about their concerns around general if AI's
(00:26):
return on investment, Nvidious stock has suffered a record two
hundred and seventy nine billion dollar loss in one day's trading.
It's truly truly crazy. And today we're talking about the
most important story in Nvidia, which is of course chief
executive Jensen Wang and his wonderful swag. He this man
knows how to dress, which can be rare in the
tech industry. But I've brought in mementswear expert Derek Guy
(00:50):
to discuss it. Derek, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So Jensen looks good, But how would you describe his general.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, it's funny for a guy who is essentially
ushering in what could be transformative change in the economy,
possibly having effects in politics. You know, many fear that
this is going to spark off a wave of unemployment
and kind of a shift of growing inequality in the
(01:22):
United States. He kind of dresses like an evil character.
I think he's very stylish, But he kind of dresses
a bit like an evil character because he does these
kind of all black outfits with these most of them
look like to be cowhide or look like cowhide, possibly
go hide leather jackets, sometimes exotic leather jackets. But it's
(01:43):
always this kind of very sleek, all black look that
you know, you generally kind of associate with kind of
ominous evilness.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, and I always thought it was kind of more
of a biker look. But what is he do you
think even going for? Here? Is it? Do you think
he's going for evil or is he just trying to
be a certain kind of cool. No.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I think he's probably aiming to be a certain kind
of coal, a biker kind of edgy character, and I
think he pulls it off well. I think he's actually
one of the few. I think there's a low bar
for tech guys, but he actually, I think, clears the
bar to be a pretty stylish figure.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So tell me about these jackets. Have you looked into
what kinds that? I know you've talked about materials, But
what is it about these cuts exactly? And these do
you know the brands at all?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I don't know the brands. I do think, I suspect
that they're custom made for him. They fall very well
on him. So everything about a jacket, whether it's a
tailor jacket or a parker or a leather jacket, everything
hangs from the shoulders, and if the shoulders are not
cut right, then it's just the jacket's not gonna fit well.
And his jackets fit very well in that Essentially he
(02:56):
gets a very nice kind of upside down vs for
the zippers, which demonstrates that the shoulders fit well, and
the cut is done intentionally to create that kind of
a little bit more angular look. Some of his jackets,
I believe from memory, have what's called a long front balance.
(03:16):
So when you're looking at a jacket from the side,
it's always fine for the front ham the front of
the hem to be lower or even with the back,
but you never want the front of the jacket to
be higher than the back. Generally speaking, I actually can't
think of many exceptions to this rule. But his jackets
are cut such that he gets very very on some
(03:39):
of the jackets, not all of them. On some of
the jackets he gets very low front balance, and it
looks very stylish that way. It's just a little bit
more of a stylized look. It's clearly I think he
hired somebody to style him. His suits generally also fit
very well, and my guess is that he just doesn't
want to deal with different combination of outfits all the time,
(04:04):
and this allows him to stick with a singular look
and look pretty good in public life.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, it kind of feels like an upgrade from Zuckerberg's
whole whole hoodie situation. And I think a lot of people,
by the way, none of this podcast is an ethical
evaluation of these people. This is this their take. But Zuckerberg,
for example, was doing it very clearly because it was easy,
and I think people people think people underplay how much
(04:31):
of that goes into the fashion of these tech entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, I think it's interesting to couch this in the
history of kind of the impact the tech industry has
had on fashion, so or men's fashion specifically. I mean,
if you think of basically post war era in the
United States, the suit has been kind of declining since
the nineteen sixties and seventies, the suit became too tied
(04:54):
with the establishment, and after kind of student war protests,
freedom movements, the Watergate scandal. People really did not want
to be associated with the establishment. So after the Second
World War, slowly people started to shed the suit and
started to take on different types of casual, often casual
that represented the working class. But I think there was
(05:16):
a major shift starting in the nineties after the tech
boom and the rise of Silicon Valley kind of billionaires. Essentially,
it wasn't just that the suit was no longer desirable.
It's that another form of fashion became very desirable, and
that fashion was the kind of like hoodie gens uniform
(05:38):
that Mark Zuckerberg specifically ushered in. And it was desirable
in the sense that it signaled a certain kind of
new meritocracy to say that we don't que to the
kind of traditionalism of industries back East. We're in California,
shaking up the economy, and the only thing that matters
is your skills. You know. SBF basically adopted this kind
(06:04):
of ethos. He looked pretty, you know, he dressed he
did not dress very well, And I think part of
that was this act to say, I am so in
the world of intellectual thought and coding, and I only
care about meritocracy that I can't spare a single thought
to how I dress. But in reality, this uniform, this
(06:27):
hoodie and Jean's uniform, especially in the tech industry, became
its own kind of norm, such that it wasn't just
that people didn't care about fashion. It's that dressing a
certain way signal that you were part of the group,
part of the crowd. And now we see that the
original people who ushered in that ethos are actually taking
(06:50):
I don't want to say, you know, they're not. Mark
Zuckerberg is not transforming his look, but at least since
the fall of last year, he certainly has taken a
slightly larger in and his luck, and he's transforming his
look a little bit. He's looking a little bit more stylish,
and I think that that signals a naturally significant change
in how the tech industry thinks about fashion, and then
(07:12):
also how that is impacting the larger cultural space.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, I didn't really think about it. But Zuckerberg, he
he is kind of he's dressing like a man dressed
up as a nineties rapper at times, but he seems
to be paying more attention to the quality of clothes,
at least like it looked what he is wearing looks
nicer hangs on him better versus feeling like And I
admit before this goal, I didn't really think about how
(07:37):
performative the I'm not really trying look is. But it
seems like he's trying now, and I wonder if that
is trying to sigle a shift in the industry at
least with him.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know, I'm not really quite sure what is his deal.
There have been multiple articles written about his style. For
a while, it was rumored that all of his T
shirts were his gray T shirts were from Kuchinelli and
they bought them from Milk's Bashford in San Francisco. I
can't remember the price of the T shirts, but it
was rumored that he was spending something like a thousand
(08:09):
or two thousand dollars on hoodies and like seven hundred
dollars on T shirts. That was published again somewhere, and
I want to say it was maybe the cut, but
afterwards Mark Coodie's I'm sorry, Mark Coody. Mark Zuckerberg's team
reached out to the writer to clarify to say that
he does not, in fact buy all of his hoodies
from books Bashford, and that he did buy one once
(08:32):
but then just never did again, but he listed the
names of where he gets his clothing, and they were
pretty kind of I would say, in the know brands,
not super fashionable, but relatively in the know. So he
named Todd Snyder, Buck Mason, John Elliott, which is very
in the know. I think some other brands that escape
(08:55):
escape me at the moment, but these these brands essentially
are very rarely sold in just one store, So I
thought he was working with a stylist. His team denies
that he works with a stylist, but the difference of
his clothes is that they are a little bit more
in conversation with what's trending at the moment. So if
you actually go to his Instagram page, I think his
(09:18):
Instagram handle is Zuck, you'll see that starting in I
will say, like October or November of last year, his
wardrobe dramatically changed. So before he wore pretty kind of
standard T shirts, jeans, sometimes a sweatshirt, and the cut
was pretty basic. The shoulders seems sat on his shoulder bone,
(09:41):
you know, like slim straight jeans. It's so very very
basic kind of look. But then starting in October and November,
you start to see the cuts change. He wore a
drop shoulder scene. When he wore long sleeves, the sleeves
would kind of stack a little bit around his wrist.
What else was he wearing? He was obviously he adopted
a gold chain, which was recently written about, I think
(10:02):
in the Wall Street Journal and even Slate, And I
think it just demonstrates a little bit more attention paid
to the idea of a silhouette. And yeah, I think
he looks better for it.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So for our listeners and also me, define exactly what
a silhouette is. When you think of one as a
person buying clothes.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So there are two aspects when you're buying clothes. There's
fit and there's silhouette. Fit is I think a very
you should think of it in very narrow terms. So
to give an example, when you are, let's say, buying
a button up shirt, if you can't button up the shirt,
it doesn't fit. If you're buying a suit jacket and
(10:45):
the collar lists from your neck even when you're not moving,
it doesn't fit. If you are buying pants and you
can't button the pants, they don't fit. Silhouette is slightly different.
Silhouette is the idea that if you take away all
of the details in the outfit and you were just
to think of the outfit in terms of shapes. Think
(11:06):
of it as an outline that is basically the silhouette
of the garment. So in that sense, sometimes you know,
when people see like pants that are very crop they say, oh, well,
those don't fit. Not necessarily. Sometimes pants are designed to
be very cropped, and that's part of the silhouette. Sometimes
sleeves are meant to stack around the on the wrist.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It's just part of the look when you say, what
do you mean? Sorry, So if you're.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Wearing a very long sleeve shirt, for example, if you
if you go to a bespoke tailor to give an example,
and you're just to get a basic shirt made, they
would design the shirt in such a way that the
cuffs stay stationary on your wrists even when you move
your arms. So that means that the sleeve length is
(11:56):
a little bit longer than your actual arm. Otherwise, when
you move your arms, the cuffs would ride up on you. However,
some designers such as John Elliott I'm trying to think
of some other bahrain as another designer that does this,
probably rick Ohens assume because he does these very long
drap silhouettes. The sleeve is so long that essentially you
(12:20):
get a lot of stacking. The material ends up stacking
around your wrist and it's just part of the look.
It doesn't have to be that close fit. Only in
one singular way, silhoette allows you to think of an
outfit in terms of shapes and take a little bit
more creativity.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
When you think about getting creative with outfits, I feel
like you don't think of Silicon Valley. It feels that
while there is some of the performative, I'm just a
regular guy thing. I'm focused on my merit. I also
feel like, especially in such a male dominated culture and
especially now in the Valley, there's a lot of this
masculine kind of Oh, you want to be a big,
(13:06):
tough guy, and fashion is not for tough guys, and
I feel like it deprives them of something, It deprives
them as something they could really enjoy, Like, there are
so many parts of the Valley that enjoy I don't know,
building composable software, putting together different pieces to make the
architecture work. Yeah, the idea of doing so esthetically is
somehow feminine. It just feels like a loss for them.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I am a strong believer that you don't have
to pay attention to clothes or I think people are
generally aware of clothes to some degree, I think, more
than they.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Like to wry am.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But I don't think anyone has to take a great
interest in their wardrobe. And I'm very strong believer that
you should never judge a person's deeper and more important
inner qualities based on their dress. But I do think
that if you I think of dress as sort of
like eating, Like I have to eat to survive, and
I have to dress to go outside. And if I
(13:54):
have to do these things, you know, I think it's
nicer to eat a tasty meal versus boiled potatoes. And
I think it's nicer to wear something that makes me
feel good versus something that makes me feel bad, something
that makes me feel happy versus something that adds nothing
to my life. And buying those items, you know, if
(14:14):
you're like really deep into it, like it's you know,
like basically a core part of my life, then certainly
can take a lot of time. But it doesn't have
to take a lot of your time. And if you
just buy things that you like and make you happy.
I think that just adds something to the beginning of
your day.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, and it's something to enjoy about your persona, and
a lot of these people are quite focused on their
identity as well. And but one of the reasons I
had you on here is I've got into clothes recently.
It's crazy way to word it, but the idea of
being able to dress yourself in a way that makes
you feel good about yourself is fun and I think
that societally, especially well definitely with men, there's this push
(14:50):
away from it. But it also I'm glad you mentioned
what you did there. It isn't about necessarily putting a
ton of attention in, it's feeling good about what you're wearing.
The only time I've really thought of this happening in
the valley at scale. Are you familiar with American giant hoodies. Yeah,
So there was this weird, long period like a year
or two when everyone wanted one. They were like actually
(15:12):
quite hard to get there with these very heavy hoodies.
And that was the only time I think there's been
like a known aesthetic discussion in the valley. And it's
so it's something I think everyone could enjoy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, I mean a hoodie is a perfect example. I
like Camber. Camber. American John also makes good hoodies. I'm
not knocking them. Camber is another one that makes these
very stout hoodies.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I like hoodies, and I think when you put I
dislike really thin hoodies that kind of cling to your body,
and I like a thicker, kind of rumor hoodie. And
that's just personal preference. If someone likes the thinner hoodies,
that's fine too. I just think when you are paying
attention to these things, you know, I don't know, when
you walk around, you feel a little bit better when
(15:55):
you see yourself in the mirror. You like how you look,
You feel a little bit more confident. I think of
it just like it's just like cooking. You know, you
could eat boiled potatoes, but you know you could also
throw some seasoning in and it will taste better.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
So yeah, So actually that this is a good question.
How can you dress like a hoodie, for example, and
look fashionable and field well, not fashionable is probably the
wrong word. What's a good fun way to dress with
a hoodie, I guess is what I'm asking.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So I'm I sort of feel that when we talk
about aesthetics. In this sense, there is one aesthetic that
most people agree looks good, and that tends to be
aesthetics that are part of the hedgemonic culture. So the suit,
for example, most people when they see a man in
the suit, they if the suit is assuming, it's cut well,
and it you know, fits well in all of these things,
(16:46):
they usually say, oh, that person looks good, right, And
it's sort of like how received pronunciation. Even if you
dislike the hegemonic kind of role that it plays, everyone
recognizes that, like, oh yeah, that's like the hegemonic you know,
way of speaking, and it sounds good. Once you break
out of whatever is hegemonic, then you get into all
(17:08):
these niche territories and there are gonna be a lot
of people that don't like how something sounds or how
something looks. And that's the same with you know, pronunciations
of regional kind of dialects. So when I think of hoodies,
I personally like when a hoodie leans into a very
classic workwhere look, so that's like raw denim jeans, olive fatigues,
(17:31):
if you're wearing chinos, then I think it's better if
it's if it's the kind of like tougher, more rugged
chino styled after the mid nineteenth century Army chinos that
were issued to US vets, versus the very kind of
like business casual look. And then you know, like service boots,
blundstones for a jacket if it's if the weather allows
(17:54):
you to wear both a hoodie and a jacket, then
trucker jackets, bombers, chortcoats, like anything that seems rugged. Double
knee car heartpants also go really well with hoodies. But
again recognizing that once you leave the world of hegemonic
aesthetics and culture and all these representations, there are a
lot of people who say, oh, well, you know that
(18:16):
there's a lot of judgments about someone's class and respectability
based on whether or not they are conforming to these notions,
which I don't adhere to. But I think aesthetically that
kind of like rugged working class look with a hoodie looks.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Really good, and there's nothing about a look like that
that has to be schlubby, and I think that that's
what people associate with sometimes.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
True, although I don't have a problem with looking schlubby,
I think you can be schlubby and also be stylish.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
There are ways to wear sweatpants school, though I've get
to work them out. And as far as Jensen's look goes,
he mostly just looks like jeans, leather jacket, and black shirt. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, there are a couple of people who have adopted
his look, and you can kind of do easy comparisons
to see why his works better. So when you take it,
when you look at Jensen Wong, if you pull up
photos of him, and you can also compare his look
to Sequoia partner Sean McGuire. Sean McGuire wears actually pretty
similar outfits. He wears black leather jackets, black teas, and
(19:17):
black jeans. But as jackets just don't fit as nicely.
They're a little bit baggier. They don't have like you know,
it's fine for a leather jacket to be baggy, but
his does not look bagging in an intentional, thoughtful way.
It's just kind of like a limp limp jacket that
hangs on him. And then when you look at Jensen Wong,
there are very strong angular lines that just make him
(19:41):
look better for lack of a better word. And yeah,
I think Jensen just happens. I assume because of his
immense wealth. I assume he just you know, hired a
stylist to help him with this part of his life.
When you look at early photos of him, he dressed
as a typical kind of tech nerd, like polo shirts,
(20:02):
Gino's jeans. It just didn't look very stylish. But in
this way he looks great. I will say that there
was a moment, maybe like ten years ago instill somewhat today,
where you saw a woman in professional spaces ditching Taylor
jackets meaning sport codes toit jackets, blazers and the like,
(20:25):
and substituting them for black double riders. And this was
right around the time that black double riders started to
become a fashion trend.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
And what is a black double rider?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
A black double rider is, So there are two main
types of motorcycle jackets. There is a style called the
cafe racer. That's a single I don't I don't know
if it's called a single breasted, but you can think
of it in terms of a single breasted. As the
zip enclosure goes up and down, the center of the
body usually has a band caller meant to fit very
(20:56):
tight on the body. And then the double rider is
is what you think of when you think of Marlon
Brando and the Wild One, think of shot perfectos and
as an asymmetrical zip, and usually a deep pocket on
one side has lapels. And I would say, like in
twenty fourteen twenty fifteen, when Eddie Slamaine was appointed creative
(21:19):
director at Saint Laurent's, he and Kanye actually popularized the
black double writer as a fashion piece. And they made
it from being strictly a utilitarian motorcycle garment and turned
to fashion piece by kind of making them out of
softer lambskin leathers, so that was kind of clear that
the person was wearing it for stala and not for
(21:40):
just like utilitarian purposes. And it was popular among fashion
conscious men, but it was especially popular among women who
are seeking an alternative to a tailor jacket.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And one of the.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Interesting things is that for the period of I want
to say, like maybe two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen
to maybe about twenty nineteen twenty twenty, figures like AOC
Cindy McCain, multiple CEOs that are the CEO of if
(22:14):
I remember correctly, Hewlett Packard, I think maybe one of
the American car companies, all of them start to wear
double riders in somewhat like professional settings, like when they're
doing television interviews. I think AOC may have even warned
a double rider into congress and it was considered a
form of professional dress. And I think it's interesting when
(22:35):
I see Jensen wearing a leather jacket in this manner,
that communicates not It doesn't communicate dangerous rebel. It communicates professionalism,
put togetherness. I think it's interesting that comes after that
kind of moment where women made it somewhat normal in
(22:56):
professional spaces.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I wonder if puff it's his, it is also the silhouette.
It's the fact it fits in the same way. Maybe
you're the expert here, but in the same way. You
say that kind of suits give you an air of respectability,
in part because they usually the fit is quite good,
the silhouette's good. Maybe it's something like that, because he
looks well put together. He doesn't look like he just
(23:19):
got off a bike, right, right, right.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Right, Yeah, No, I think he looks great. He's of
all of the tech people, high profile tech people that
have tried to improve the look, I think he's the
most successful. The other one that comes to mind is
I'm probably going to Butcher's name, and I apologize if
he happens to be listening. But Adam OSERI I believe
he's the president of Instagram. He has He has an
(23:44):
Instagram account under his last name of Sari, and you
can see many of his looks there. His looks are
a lot more They're less edgy, a little bit more
kind of I don't want to call them basic, but
they are. I think they're more approachable for many guys.
Instead of like a basic button up shirt, he'll wear
a camp collar instead of like the pollos that you
(24:05):
see at Lacoste. He wears Polos with a skipper collar,
which is I think a little bit more of a
stylish collar. He often layers with the jacket. He also,
like Mark Zuckerberg, wears a gold chain and all of
these kind of touches I think make him look a
little bit better than most tech figures.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
So something you said on Twitter maybe a month ago,
maybe I'm butchering the timeline here is that men kind
of get trapped in these tropes and they don't do
more fun things like jewelry. What are some other fun
things that men can actually do and bring into their wardrobe.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Well, I always tell you guys to start first with
thinking of fashion as social language, so don't think of
it as just a random creative expression. So you know
Jensen Huong, for example, we've been talking about him during
this podcast, whereas you know these black biker style leather jackets,
black t shirt and black jeans, often black boots, So
(25:15):
it would be it would ruin the look if all
of a sudden he tied like a colorful I don't know,
a colorful neck tie around his belt loops, you know,
like that would just be right look, It would ruin
the look. I would say for many guys, start thinking
about fashion and social language in that sense, think of
the different kind of forms of forms that that language
(25:38):
can take. So you know, you have to find an
aesthetic that speaks to you that could be like punk, skate,
work wear, prep, whatever, haven't guard, whatever it may be,
and then dress with that type of intentionality. Dress with
that aesthetic in mind. Don't be afraid of I think
when guys are shopping for a jacket, they they go
(26:00):
wrong when they shop for the blandest form of a jacket,
And what they should do is just think of the
look that they want to create. And find the jacket
that communicates that look. So it's it's more about thinking
of an outfit the way that you would think about
how to write a sentence, and less about like throwing
(26:21):
paint on canvas, for example. Think of the sentence that
you want to write, and then find ways to buy
clothes and create outfits that essentially communicate something as a
sentence would.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, and I guess express meaning that you want to
just visually like almost like a costume, but not not
exactly like you're pretending to be something. Yeah, And I think.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That's fine to where things that you know allow you
to explore different facets of your identity. I think as
a as a general matter, most guys can benefit from
wearing a layering piece that usually improves a look.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I would not buy just just real basic What do
you mean by a layering piece?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
So if you think of a guy in chinos and
a T shirt or a button up shirt and sneakers,
you know, even if it fits well, it's kind of
a basic locus. There's not going to be a lot
going on, so he would look a lot better usually
if he has a finishing layer. That could be like
when you look at Adamos series Instagram. That can be
anything from like a chunky textured cardigan to a cool jacket.
(27:23):
Sometimes when it's too hot to wear a layering piece,
you can do it with very lightweight layers. So in
the summertime, or if you happen to live in a
climate that's very warm, you can do a layering piece
just by wearing T shirts and then layering a short sleeve,
open kind of shirt. Or it could be a shambray
shirt like a work shirt. You could even do a
(27:44):
kind of like reverse layer. So for example, if you
imagine a Western denim button up shirt and a pair
of jeans, that looks fine. But then if you want
to create a more layered look unbuttoned, a few buttons
on the Western button up shirt they're in a rib
tank and then possibly even a gold chain and that
will look better. I think when you create these layers,
(28:07):
create a little bit more visual interest that helps. Instead
of wearing you know, Plaine Smooth Merino v Next and
Crew Next sweaters that you find at the mall, get
a textured sweater, so like a rib sweater or a
Shetland sweater or anything with a bit of texture on it.
When you again going back to Adam Mosteria, when you
go to Instagram and you look at sweaters, they're often
(28:29):
they often have a bit of texture. Anything to add
those elements, a bit of texturing, a bit of layering,
I think will help an outfit.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's and I think a little bit of it is
kind of relaxing. Also just accepting that, like people get
the people can do whatever they want. It's their own thing,
and that there is no there is only you. And
but the one question that I always come back to
with shopping in general is how, like what is the thing?
How do you even start finding clothes that actually fit?
(29:01):
Like all their stores you recommend that have people that
will help, like Nordstrom, I know has some. It's just
that I know most people myself included listening to this
probably can't afford like a custom leather jacket for example.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Right again, it really comes back to the look that
you want to create. If you decide if you're I
would start collecting photos of esthetics that you like, and
over time themes will emerge. And let's say, if for example,
you prefer a very kind of like preppy look, then
maybe you go to j Crue. If you have a
(29:34):
little bit more money to spend. Maybe you do Todd Snyder,
although they're not really preppy, they're preppy adjusting it. I
suppose I guess Americana the vaguest term I can give fit.
But let's say you want a little bit more of
a rugged biker look, then maybe you go to Self Edge.
If you want a very minimalist look, maybe you look
(29:55):
at Lamaire and you know there are going to be
kind of more affordable. Some listeners are going to look
up Lamire and be like, this guy really recommended a
shop that tells, you know, like six hundred dollars pants.
But if you can't afford Lamire, then you can go
to a store named costs CS and they have closed
that are like Lamaire. Or you could look at Lamaire's
(30:17):
collaboration with Uniclo and they have a line called you
Just Simply You, and that will have many of Lamaire's shapes,
but in more not only affordable prices, but more affordable
material so that you're not paying for like a silk
shirt for example. And yeah, I think you start with
the aesthetic that you want to create and then find
(30:39):
stores that specialize in that look. And one way is
if you find a store or brand that you really like,
go to their Instagram account, click the tag section, and
then you'll see a bunch of people who are posting
photos of outfits with those garments. Then you can not
(30:59):
only follow the people that are stylish that you would
like to kind of emulate, but you can also look
at the other brands that they're wearing. So let's say
you find that you really like prep and you discover
a store called Sidmashburn, which is really good for that look,
and you go to Sidmashin's Instagram and you click the
tag section. You see all these people wearing Sidmashburn stylish ways,
(31:23):
and you click their photos and you find out, oh,
I can also check out I don't know mercer for
button down shirts and Ratio clothing for you know, chinos
and other types of button ups. That's a way that
you can essentially discover new brands and then go deeper
in the wrap. You know, on those pages, you can
colick the tag seession, you start following certain accounts, you
(31:45):
learn about certain brands, and you start saving photos. You
can either bookmark them in Instagram or you can save
them on your phone. Or your computer or whatever. And
I think over time you just start refining your tape
and figuring out what works for you. It obviously helps
if you can if you're lucky enough, This does not
always work, but if you can find people online that
(32:09):
are built similar to you, So if you're a heavier guy,
it certainly helps to find if you can find guys
that are built like you on Instagram, because then you
can see what brands they're buying. Yeah, so I would
start there. I would start thinking about fashion and social language.
Look up brands, look up those accounts, find stylish people,
(32:29):
follow them, save photos, and then over time you'll figure
out which toures to to check out.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And now the final question, how do you go and
buy a leather jacket? Where would you start? If you
want to be like Jensen? Is this? Can I get?
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Can I get deep in the in the in the absolutely?
Okay if you're I'm very excited that you asked this question.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
So yeah, I would.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Say, first and foremost, you have to understand that leather
is just a material. It's like wool, like cotton. So
it's sort of like when someone asks how do I
buy a leather jacket? That's as vegue as asking how
do I buy a wool jacket a cotton jacket? The
first question is always right, what kind of style? What
kind of aesthetic do you want to do? And let's
say the person is, you know, they fancy themselves as
(33:22):
a real rugged, tough guy, you know, works with their hands,
loves I don't know, fixing motorcycles or whatever. Well, then
probably for you, I would recommend a tougher leather jacket,
maybe in a motorcycle style, so that would tend to
be materials like coat skin, cowhide. Those types of jackets
(33:45):
will look heavier and more like armor, for example. And
if someone was searching for that, I'd recommend them to
self Edge, Standard and Strange probably carry some leather jackets.
I would recommend they check out Shots, which is a
classic leather jacket maker, Lewis Leathers, Snake Oil Provisions. All
of those shops have those styles. And then additionally they
(34:09):
have the types of clothes that you can wear with
that leather jacket. So they'll have the right flannel shirts
and the right jeans and the right boots. You don't
have to buy the entire look from one store, but
you know, when you go in that store and you
figure like, oh, this is the way I put together
that look. Then, but you know, the flannel shirts don't
fit me. You can look somewhere else for shirts that
have those qualities. But let's say you're not that type
(34:32):
of guy and you think of yourself as kind of
like I don't know, like a like the type of
guy that visits wine bars, right, and you you love
listening to, like I don't know, classical music or whatever,
and you and you you think you look at brands
like Laura Piano and you think that's your lifestyle. Well,
(34:53):
then you probably want a leather jacket that's made out
of softer materials, not that kind of like tough, rugged
armor like material So you're going to be looking at,
for example, like Lambskin, and for that I would check
out Valstar, which is an Italian brand. They do an
A one bomber that's very quote unquote cityfied out of
softer materials. That type of jacket goes really well with
(35:16):
Taylor trousers, like dress shirts, Shetland sweaters, chuck of boots,
things like that. Who else does leather jackets like that?
I assume mister Porter's in house line mister P is
kind of they do these kind of like afford and
(35:37):
I wouldn't call them affordable, but they're more affordable versions
of the designer lines that they sell, and mister P
will probably have designs like that. Let's say you are
you don't think of yourself as either a wine bar guy,
and you don't think of yourself as like the rugged
motorcycle guy. You think of yourself as just kind of
like a normal dad. You know, You're just like a
(36:00):
normal dude. You don't have these strong associations. Well, then
I would maybe check out, you know, instead of like
a double rider, which I like, but you know, double
rider has loaded with a little bit more meaning. So
instead of a double Rider, then maybe you can look
at bomber jackets. So either an A one bomber or
an A two bomber, and those are you know, those
(36:22):
are a little bit more neutral. I think in terms
of styling, I would look at buzz Rickson does some
repo preprom bombers that people could check out. Double RL
probably has some reprom bombers. You can also just go vintage,
go to a vintage shop check out like a g
one Bomber for example, and a one and a two
(36:43):
is a little bit like it's very very dad, but
a G one has a furry caller essentially that I
think looks a little bit more charming. And you know,
you could wear that with like sweatshirt jeans, and it's
not as if you're a guy that does not identify
(37:06):
as wine bar or motorcycle jacket or motorcycle dude, then
a bomber jacket might be your thing.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Derek, thank you so much for joining me today. This
has been so wonderful. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1 (37:19):
They can find me on Twitter at the handle die Workwear,
and then also write on my own blog, which is
dieworkware dot com, and also do a lot of writing
for a website called put this on, which you can
go to put this on dot com. That's where most
of my service writing is. And if they go there
they click the start here button, they can look at
like a whole bunch of articles that can get them
started to trust them better.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Thank you so much, and everyone, thank you for listening.
And then you're gonna complain that you're gonna hear me
say thank you for listening again, but that's your problem.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
On Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
T O S O W s ki dot com. You
can email me at easy at Better offline dot com
or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast
links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend
(38:21):
you go to chat dot Where's youreaed dot at to
visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline
to check out our reddit.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a
production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us
out on the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 1 (38:39):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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