#352 - Joe Galante Legendary Music Executive and 2022 Country Music Hall of Fame Inductee + On Signing Alabama, Kenny Chesney, Dave Matthews Band and More! + How The Death of His Friend Keith Whitley Affected Him

Bobby has a conversation with the King of Nashville. Music executive Joe Galante has been named as one of the 2022 inductees to the Country Music Hall of Fame. He joins the list that includes Rock & Roll Hall of Famer Jerry Lee Lewis, the late country singer Keith Whitley. Joe talks with Bobby about how he got his start in New York which led him to making a splash in Nashville where he became the youngest person to ever be the head of a record label. He talks about signing major acts to their first deal like: Alabama, The Judds, Kenny Chesney, Dave Matthews Band and more! Joe Galante also opens up about his late friend Keith Whitley who will be inducted with him this fall. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, welcome to episode three fifty two. One of my
most favorite episodes. That's this one right here. Joe Galani
music executive. Sure sounds cool, but really one of the biggest,
most influential ever in the history of country music, if
not the most influential ever. He is going into the
Country Music Hall of Fame, which is really really hard

(00:21):
to get into, even as a massive artist. Also going
in this year is Keith Whitley and Jerry Lee Lewis.
Like that should tell you. Only three people many people
were It's just such a hard thing to get into.
But he is, you know, that influential, and so it's
just stories about him going wow, yeah, I'm not scared
to take it on. Let me see what I can
do here. I believe him myself, never done it before,

(00:43):
but let's see what happens, and just saying yeah, I'll
try it. I mean, it's really cool. It's it's awesome, right,
really cool. Like a little bit, I was like, dang,
he's too big, too cool to be here in the studio.
That's really how I felt. But I like him a
whole lot, and I haven't spent a lot of time
with him personally, but at the very end of this
podcast that do finally tell him and how kind of
affected my life here in Nashville. I think he went
through way earlier things that I went through way later

(01:06):
as far as people go on, wait, you're not just
like us, and he just crushed it. So you know,
he signed artists like Clinton Black and Kenney Chesney, Sarah Evans,
Vince gild The Judge, Martina McBride, Lorie Morgan, Katy I
was like carry Underwood, Chris Young. I could go on
and on, but just so many things that he talks
about here are still happening because he was like, what

(01:26):
if we did this and it just worked and he
sold anyway, that's the deal. He was like the youngest
guy to run a record label back in the day. Right,
I don't think I'm making that part up. That is correct,
And you know I did a thing where I'm super
interested in the acts that he found, and he discovered
the ended up being big stars and also his career.
So I tried to make it like when I watched
like a cool Netflix series and they kind of flashed

(01:47):
not around, but they like cut two storylines back and forth.
And so we talked about an artist he signed, and
then I'm like, all right, so this part of your career,
you did that. And I tried to go back and
forth a little bit just so it would be engaging
to everyone if you want to hear about the artists
he signed or his career. So I like it. I'm
glad that you're here. This is a big one for
us and a big one for me. And I don't

(02:07):
think I've screwed it up, which is just a relief
because sometimes I'm like, well I screwed that one up.
Good enjoy Episode three two. Here you go, Joe, Glani, Joe.
We have important people that come by here, but then
we have really important people to come by here, and
so I don't know what strings. Who got you to

(02:29):
come up here? Is my question? Because you know somebody yeah,
right there in the mike we're talking to micro How
did I? Oh? He did? I've known him forever. So
Tom Betchy is, for those listening, one of my managers.
I have two managers, and Tom Betchy um is very
well connected and obviously Joe to get you up here.
So I appreciate you coming up here. That's really nice

(02:51):
of you. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, you can
pull that down if you'd like. Whenever I saw it's
always a big deal. Whenever they announced the Hall of
Fame inductees, and I was just looking to see who's
gonna make it this year because I know Ronnie and
Kicks got in last year, and um, and I saw you,
and I was like, holy crap, that's all. I was
so excited for you, and I wonder, did you have

(03:12):
any idea that you were up for it, that you
would probably get it? Like, what did you know before
they announced who was going in? I knew I was
on the ballot, and um, actually I voted on the
first round for what I can say his name, Irving Law.
And uh, the second ballot came out and I was
removed from the category in terms of being able to vote.

(03:34):
And I called Brendon over at the c m A
and I said, what's up with that? He said, we
can't have you voting for yourself. I said, I wasn't
gonna do that, but I completely get it. So whenever
they announced that you made it, because you've you've done
so much. We're gonna talk about a lot of that.
How does it make you feel at this stage of
your career to again get probably one of your highest achievements. Um.

(03:58):
It's not something that you really ever think about cold
because it's such rarefied air that you really don't think
you get there, And it's not something that I think
most people that go in there really strive for. It
just happens so humbled, honored in disbelief. Well, congratulations, that
is quite the honor. And again, you've been honored in

(04:19):
so many ways over so many years. This has got
to be quiet. Maybe refreshing is not the word for you,
but I don't know it. It almost probably feels new,
like something new for you. I feel like you've done
so much well, like to be in a Hall of
fame with all these country stars. Like, is there anything
that's that's similar to this in your career? No, no, no,

(04:39):
no no. I mean when I did the when Ronnie
and Kicks hosted the press conference for the nominees UM
and I was standing there just before I went up,
and I looked on my left and there's Hank Senior
into the right as Patsy Klein. I went, what am
I doing here? You know, It's just it's that was

(05:00):
it really was? You mentioned that and again I can
appreciate your humbleness, but what are you doing here? And
I can list ten thousand reasons why you are in
the Hall of Fame and I've done so much. But
I was kind of going over some of your personal history,
and that will get to in a second, where you
moved from New York down to Nashville and back to
New York and back to Nashville. Uh, But I just

(05:20):
kind of want to start with some of the acts
you've signed and kind of bounced around between your career
and the acts that you've signed and what you saw
in them early, because there is such a skill, maybe
even an instinct, and you can tell me, you know,
what part of your talent or or or a gift
that you use when finding these great acts. But if
we were to talk about Alabama, for example, what did

(05:42):
you see in that group that early? Who actually was
at the country radio seminar that I saw him for
the first time. I'd heard about him several times, and
my boss at that time was Jerry Bradley, and unbeknownst
to me, he was tracking them at the same time
that I was, and I went down it was the
you know, the show used to be just one band,

(06:02):
and then everybody came up and sang with that one band.
So you mean there's like a house band, and then
all the artists would come in got it, and so
Alabama got up there and it was you know, they
didn't use the house band, but they were part of
the house band. And I think that's always a tough
gig anyhow, you know. I mean it's everybody's sitting out
there and you don't quite know what to expect, and
you're nervous. But they were natural born entertainers. The harmony

(06:27):
was unbelievable over Andy Owen still to this day is
one of the greatest country singers we've had. Whenever there's
a group like that. And I guess what year one? Okay,
so eighty one or so? And what was the wine
and dyne process like an eighty one? Or were they?
Were they being pursued by multiple labels? I know you

(06:49):
said someone else was tracking them as well. I have
friends now that are you know that people want to
sign a deal and you have five labels coming out
of them. They're all promising on things and doing nice things.
But what was it like an eighty one? When you
find an act that you really like, whereas nobody else
pursuing them. They were on a small independent label called
M d J and Dale Morris was the manager at
that time, and so it really was just a direct

(07:10):
negotiation between us. There was no other competition for them.
Whenever you sign them, do you say, all right, here's
our here's our vision for you? Or was Alabama? So
did they know who they were at that point? How
how green were they when you signed them? Oh? No,
they were not green. I mean from a live standpoint,
they were. They were seasoned and they've been doing it

(07:30):
a long time, a lot of ships. Yeah, And in
terms of vision, I think at that time we didn't
know what the word vision meant. It was just we
like you. We think you've got the potential and the songs.
I mean, you know, my homes in Alabama, Tennessee River
Mountain music feels so I mean, you know, you get
the story. It's just it's all there. And they only
got better as performers. And one of the first things

(07:55):
that we did was we did a tour of rock
and roll It's like the bottom Line and the Whiskey
out in l a Um and we flew in a
bunch of radio people and industry people, and even then
people were just going, we've just seen the country beatles,
and so it was early on in their career. But
the other thing too was Randy Owen, the lead singer

(08:18):
UM was probably in another life, one of the best
promotion people I've ever seen. He just locked onto both
retailers and radio people, anybody he had to know and
take care of and make sure that they were doing
a good job. He was focused on it. There's no
such thing as a slam, donc especially in anything creative. Right.

(08:38):
We may think we have it. There have been times
the ritten things and I'm like, this is it, and
it's not. It's just not. And there are times where
it's just a throwaway something where I'm like, I don't know,
I'm just gonna and it becomes this wild success when
you have something like Alabama uh, an entity like that.
What was the first success with that band where you went, oh, yeah,
like I knew they were good, but now we all

(08:59):
know they're good and we're here with them, you know,
in a business sense, we got to Mountain music. It
was all over. But I'll take you back for a moment,
because country music at that point was still very much
a regional format. You know, we were southeast, midwest, southwest,
a little bit of each of the coast in Alabama
was the first act where you remember the Tower Record

(09:24):
stores where actually went to the meeting with them and
they went, what's up with this band? Normally they were
inquired that they wanted more about their country section was
about seven records deep, and uh, they really were excited
about it. So that was one of the first signs
that we had that we were kind of getting outside
the neighborhood. You grew up in New York and so

(09:46):
what town It was actually Queen's Okay, so you archery, archery,
Bunky territory, Oh yeah, and da. So when that show
was on and it felt like that was happening in
your neighborhood, Oh yeah, I mean I could relate because
all those houses were built the same. They were all
attached row after row of those block after block. So
you grow up and what music is influencing you, and

(10:09):
you know, the sixties, Stones, Beatles, Dave Clark five, all,
you know, anything that was the British invasion was huge
at that point. You know, a little Richard, I mean,
it was just typical rock and roll. So for you
growing up in a time where like even if I
look back, I mean that was probably music at its

(10:30):
peak right at whenever that I think that culture consumed
so much, they owned so much of the market share,
we'll call it that. Um, why get into music though professionally?
What made you go I gotta do this, not just
to let let me get a record and just listen
to it and love it. Why why would you want
to get into it all the time? Well, I actually

(10:50):
when I came out of college, I interviewed with several companies,
and our CI as one of the two companies that
are from to be a gig. And at that point
when I was interviewing, and I was a little too cocky.
At that point, I was sitting down. The guy was
the head of UH finance and he and I said
to him what division because it was our CIA So

(11:11):
it was cornet carpet, banquet foods, random House, UM, NBC,
and then our CIA Records. And I said, what's our
c A Records? He said, what do you mean? I said, Well,
I'm an avid collector. I don't have any of yours.
I know my labels, and I don't have one of
your things. What do you mean? You know, we're very

(11:32):
strong and show tunes and we're very strong in classical music.
And I'm looking at him, going really, But so I
went to work for our ci A and it was
not something I was thinking about as a music career.
I was just thinking about a career like a job. Yeah,
I'm out of school, I got a wife, I got
a kid. Let's go. What do you do in school?
Like what you're going to college? What do you think
you were going to do? I came out. I was

(11:53):
looking for business opportunities. So I was a finance major
in a marketing minor. So you studied money. He studied marketing.
Wasn't so much study anythink about music or Yeah, I
played in a band and I was pretty poorer at it,
and uh, you know I love music. Listen. I mean
I still remember walking around with that transistor radio when
we were kids. Just listen to w ABC radio. You

(12:14):
go to our CIA in what year sevente and in
that three or four years before you come to Nashville, Like,
what were your job duties? And my assumption is you
climb pretty fast in New York. So what did you
start as and what did you end as in New York,
I ended up as a product manager, So I had

(12:34):
my elite roster at that point because I was the
kid that they didn't know a whole lot. They gave
me the struggling artist called David Bowie, lou Reid, and
several other acts that nobody really remembers at all. And
if r c A was like you mentioned, just to
paraphrase what you said, like a lot of show tunes. Um,
you know David Bowie lou Reid, that's not quite show tunes.

(12:56):
Were they going into a new kind of area? Yeah?
When I joined, they weren't on a label, and certainly
they hadn't succeeded. Um, they had things like the main
ingredient at that point and uh Buffalo Springfield for a
brief second, you know that kind of it was more
one hit Wonders than it was anything else back in
So what my assump sho would be is that most

(13:16):
country musical was on AM radio. Okay, So why what
a fellow like yourself is doing pretty good New York
decided to move to Nashville to pursue um a career
in a format that's mostly on AM radio. And I'm
assuming you didn't grow up around a lot of country music.
The only country music I heard was on AM radio.
So Johnny Cash, Eddie Arnold, Skeeter Davis that at the

(13:39):
crossed I heard it like like a Johnny Cash across. Yeah. Sure,
So you moved And how did you get approach about
moving to Nashville. Uh? I got called into the opposite
of the general manager in the head of human resources
and said, we have got a great idea. We think
you should move to Nashville. And your initial instinct was hell, no,

(13:59):
what what do you what is? What's down there? Why
would I want to go down there? I'm here, I'm
I'm in New York and uh there. Their instructions to
me were, just go down there for two years. I
think it'll be a good experience for you. You'll learn
the inner workings of a smaller operation, and if you
don't like it, you can come back. And so I
came down and met with Jerry Bradley downtown at the

(14:22):
Hilton Hotel and um, when I got back on the
plane and I went home to my wife, I said, well,
I'm not going to get that job, because I know
I pissed him off. You know, I just we weren't
on the same page. So I go into the office.
That was a Friday, and I came back to the
office on the Monday. They called me in and went,
I'm expecting here eight. It's all over and they said

(14:43):
he loved you. You're going down. I want what did
you tell your wife? Only two years? It's only two years.
So do you think they were being truthful when they
said go learn it and come back, or do you
think they really maybe had you in mind to go
down and knack, really make something of it. Now at
that point, it was really just go down and see

(15:03):
what you can. You know, companies at that point were
really a and our entities and there were promotion departments
and everything else was at in New York. Um, it
really wasn't. It was a small business and people were
still learning how to you know, market and develop artists
on a national basis for getting international. So you're in

(15:26):
your early thirties when you come to Nashville. Um, actually, wow,
you're in the early twenties. So you moved down and
you're working at our CA. But what is your job
when you move here? First? Because I know you're the
you know, one of the youngest if not the youngest
person to take over a major label. But so you
move here in your twenties, what do you do. I
had the glorious title of Manager of Administration, which really

(15:49):
meant whatever Jerry wanted me to do, I did. But
it really was trying to um bring some semblance of
order to the various departments, trying to get them involved
with the corporation overall of the r c A corporation.
I mean, I had been in the company number of years.
I had a lot of friends in the promotion department
and sales department. So Jerry was, Hey, go up there

(16:11):
and meet with them, see what you can do for
our records. And that was part of part of what
I did when I come back to that in a minute.
And that's where we are. You've just arrived in Nashville
and you have a job that sounds like I don't
know what it is because the words are so vague. Right,
You're you're doing it all. Um. Let's move over, Ben
and go to another artist. Uh, Kenny Chesney. So you
met Kenny around what year? Uh? And what did he

(16:36):
have going for him when you met him? Well, the
story is Dale Morris. We're coming back to the same person,
Dale Morris. I was getting ready to move back to Nashville,
front running the company in New York and Dale called
me over the weekend instead, I've got this kid, Kenny
Chesney said, who's Kenny Chesney. Well, he's on Capricorn. I
think you'd really like him. I said, well, send me

(16:57):
the record, you know, and we'll have a cover station.
So I got the record, and I thought it was
interesting in what way as a songwriter. I thought he
had a unique perspective. He was a country singer, which
at that point, from looking at the roster, we certainly
could use a few more of those. And he had
been out working the road, you know. I mean he

(17:19):
had been working through the whole process. I had a
respect for Capricorn Records, and um Dale said, I think
I can get him off. So that's what we went
down the road. So Capricorn Records. My assumption, as you
have never heard of Capricorn, I'm assuming they're not around anymore.
Maybe they are Walman Brothers and those kind of guys.
That's the Phil Walden was though, the original guy that
ran that company. Small. Yeah, so Kenny's on a small

(17:42):
independent label and so you guys identify him as someone
that you think you could make into a major star.
So you have the records, you listen to it. He
has an interesting perspective and an interesting way to present things.
So you call him up, you go see him. What happens.
Actually we met months later in the office and uh,

(18:03):
you know, I mean he was young. I mean he
came in, you know, it was it was almost like
George straight light. I mean he was really trying. I
was was the cowboy hat then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's crazy to think about. Had at Kenny. He's just
not that anymore and hasn't been for for a long time.
And so he says to you, like, what's what's Kenny
Chesney's goal? Because he's on Capricorn and you guys are

(18:23):
do you think there's a nice relationship that can happen there?
What does Kenny Chesney tell he wants to do with
his career at that point, he wants to be one
of one of those guys that everybody, you know, Phil
small Stadiums weren't in the conversation at that point. So
it's Phil Arenas and I want to be one of
the biggest stars out there, and I'm sure a lot
of people say that. I mean, I think pretty much
everybody probably says that I want to be a big star.

(18:44):
But why was Kenny different as far as aside from
the record that you heard and you thought his presentation
was interesting and his songwriting, But why Kenny and why
did you think he could be the massive star that
he is now? He worked his ass off, and I
mean he really whatever he didn't have as a skill
as an entertainer or as a writer, he would go

(19:05):
out and find those guys and spend the time to learn.
I always thought it was interesting he when he was
in town, he was always going to see shows, something
he continued on much later on. You know, uh he
went out and toured with Alabama when he didn't need
to tour with Alabama. He'd go out and open for
George Jones when he need to open for Georgia. He

(19:26):
just wanted to learn how do you entertain? What are
you doing that makes it so different? And they were,
you know, his heroes at the same time. When did
Kenny go from being a guy that had some moderate
to good radio success to being a superstar in your mind?
Uh m hmm. Early two thousands and what was it
a song? Was it Forever Feels? That was the one,

(19:48):
and you could probaise you're where you are. I'm sure
there are certain songs we can just feel it. You're like, Okay,
we're looking at sales or we're looking at concert tickets,
like this is the element that is changing it. He
he actually was doing better business concert wise than we
do we're doing on records at that point, so he
was making more money at live shows then you were selling.
He was selling records. Yeah, but I mean what you

(20:09):
had were people think about back then in the late
nineties there there's no Internet. People were just showing up.
It's word of mouth, and so people are going out
to see him. And what we needed to do was
connect the dots he had. You know, we'd have a hit. No,
we'd haven't missed. We'd have a hit, we'd haven't missed.
How Forever Fuel was the first time we started a

(20:31):
string where we just kept going at it. Well, that string,
the consistency of the string. What you say you started
to hit him in a row. What was the consistent
I mean in terms of numbers or no, in terms
of you started to put them together. But but what
was this was that a certain texture of the songs,
the tempo, an idea, what it was? He Beach Kenny
was like, what was it? Now? He hadn't reached beach

(20:53):
Kenny yet. He was getting there, and um, he was
developing the identity, you know, coming out with the rock
and roll t shirts, the type jeans, the whole routine,
working out physically getting there because it was a physically
demanding job that he had, and really spending the money
on the production. He knew that he needed to make
a bigger and bigger show. But you know, when we

(21:14):
made records, we pulled four singles off, sometimes five singles,
and left singles on the album that we could have
pulled out. So the quality of the music was there,
and it was it was everything from the beach. But
then you'd go through, there goes my life, you know,
I mean, you know, it just it covered the gamut.
And occasionally he would write them, but most of the

(21:35):
time they were outside writers. You know, I often say
that I love slow Kenny, like I connectually slogan anytime
Kenny's doing a ballad or uh slightly slower than mid
like those are my Kenny Chesney songs. Tequila. Yeah. Oh man,
that's my favorite songs ever. And so like Slow Kenny,
that's my jam. Sometimes when it does the beach stuff
in the fast stuff, I don't even like the beach
So I'm like, you know what, I'll pass on this one.

(21:57):
But like, man, the guy's got an emotional catalog. So Kenney, Chasney,
Big Star, Mount rushmore of artists. Sure, let's go back
to New York. You moved to Nashville, you're working as
some administration position. Um, and so do you start to

(22:18):
climb here? Is it was that a goal of yours
to climb here? Was it a gold New York? For
you to climb here New York? At that point, I
think I was off the radar in New York for
that two year period. We check in occasionally with each other,
but um, I think the turning point for me was
the jury began to see Jury Badley began to see
when I go to New York, I'd bring something back

(22:39):
that helped us. And I had this conversation with him
one day because I kept I was not in charge
of promotion, but I was trying to figure everything out
in terms of country radio. I really had not been
involved with the format, and we kept getting these records
that didn't quite compete with everybody else on the charts.
But I mean, to the most of us, it's sound, dude,

(23:00):
like we should be competing. So I dove into promotion
and tried to start figuring out meeting with people, going
out with the promotion, guys, hitting radio stations, and you know,
I came into jury one day. I said, you know,
we're not we're not doing what we need to be doing.
And he looked at me and he said, well, go
damn god, damn it, go figure it out. I said, well,
I'm not in charge of promotion. He said, you just

(23:22):
go figure it out. I'll take care of it from there.
So I came back and I said, well, here are
the things that we need to do. He said, okay,
I'll put you in charge. And wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait wait, I haven't run a staff. You know, I've
been in promotion, but I haven't run a staff. And
so that was the trial by fire, and that fire.
As you're in the fire, do you realize that it's easier, harder,

(23:45):
or that you're naturally good at it, or it's something
that maybe you didn't have the instinct for it, but
you could work really hard and figure it out. Like
where did you fall when you got into this promotions
world and now you're running it? I felt like I
could do it, but I needed the experience, you know.
I was surrounded by other tables where guys have been
doing this stuff for ten or fifteen years. I've been
doing it for fifteen or twenty months. So it took

(24:05):
me time to build those relationships and understand the system.
But then I went after it. Did you feel like
a little bit that you were at the right age
at a time when things were changing and you had
the right vision and mindset, because again, if you're working
with guys that have been doing it fifteen years, I
mean even you know, and eight and it's a significant

(24:28):
change since seventy five seven makes as far as technology, um,
And you know, I think I got lucky being this
age because I was using the internet and you know,
doing podcasting stuff before everybody was doing it. But I
happened to be very young at the right time and
severyone's like, wow, I look at this guy's doing all
those revolutionary stuff. No, I was just twenty two, and
it really wasn't revolutionary. I just was young doing it.

(24:50):
Did you find that a bit of that was because
you were younger and you were actually using the technology
of the day instead of having to learn it at
an all age. That was part of it. But I
also think just like you, you you given an opportunity,
you went after it, and you you were not afraid
of trying things, and that gave you the entree. The

(25:10):
same thing with me. I was not afraid of trying,
failing if I need, but I was going to go
after it. And you know, anytime I needed to be
on airplane out in l A, out in New York,
out and Dallas, I just went. And you you build
those relationships and you begin to understand the stations and
the personalities and the markets. And that really did help
me when I went back to the the artists and said, look,

(25:32):
this is what's coming back about the music and why
we're not succeeding, or if we were succeeding, this is
all the good news, and there's not really a lot
of bad news. And at that point, um, we had
not developed a system. We were just getting to the
point of you know, the tracking systems like the BDS
and media base. That was just coming on, you were
still dealing in archaic systems where people were yeah, hey

(25:55):
it's uh yeah, it's in power. They would just say
how many times they played, and you had to of them.
So you're credited with really changing the formula of how
promotion is done to sell records. What did you do
in your mind that was so different? Well, one of
the things was bringing the new artists out. I mean

(26:18):
we created the original promo tour. I mean Loretto was
the person that did it, and we would just used
the same model. It started with the Judgs, and we
went out with the Judds and took them into studios
and brought radio people into studios and that worked. But
what we found out later on when we did Katie
and Clint was that if we went to the actual stations,

(26:40):
then people went in there, you met everybody in the station.
You know, they cut jingles, they'd cut liners, So there
was an advantage to going to the marketplace. Prior to that,
people didn't really travel around to radio stations. Is it
crazy to do that? That's that's still the thing. It's
a personal business, you know, it's it's nice to play it,
but you want to know something about him sometimes that

(27:02):
personal relationship is what gets you over the hump to
hitting a record. So what I hear you saying is
people always a people of business, whether it be a songwriter, producer,
or manager, it's always people. Let's go to the Judge
for a second. Growing up, for me massive because my
mom loved him. She would sing them all the time.

(27:24):
Like one of the memories I have of my mother
is her singing why not me? Or just it was
all Judgs all the time. Uh. And you know you
have a mom and a daughter, and I don't know
that I have seen that before, a straight mom and
a daughter that made it to a level like the
Judge or even a mid level. So uh, you're you're
signing a you got invest money in them? Like what

(27:44):
did you see about those two that made you think
that was something to put a bunch of money into?
And we'll believe in We used to when we go
out to l a Um, we'd stay at this little
hotel called the Park. And the guy that was in
charge of current productions, Dick Whitehouse, who passed away about
a year today, I forgo. He and I have been
trying to do business for a while, just had never
hit on anything. So we had breakfast and we were

(28:06):
in the suite talking and he was getting ready to
leave and he's I said to him, you got anything
for me? He said, well, I've got this mother daughter
and I've got a work tape, but it's not ready.
Wait wait till we get back. I said, what do
you think that when you hear a mother daughter before
anything else? It's magic if you hear I have a
mother daughter. Are you like? That's so original that if
they're good, I want it because I don't. I've never

(28:29):
heard mother you know, before them, and I don't know
and have the experience you have it being around. I
just haven't heard a mother daughter do it on a
level of contemporary and and they were even on the demos,
they were great. So I said, look, I'm gonna be
back in Nashville on Monday. Why don't we get together
anytime next week? You tell me when. So I think
it was Wednesday or Thursday, the week when On and

(28:50):
Naomi came in three songs they walk out. I go.
I called Dick and said, we've got to we've got
to make a deal. And we did that day. What
do they maybe you don't remember, what are they coming
and think they have a guitar they doing in acapella stuff. No,
they had a guitar, and uh, you know Why was
playing and singing and they were doing the harmony and
Naomi is entertaining telling you the stories and honestly don't

(29:13):
remember at this point. So one of them must have
How old was she a teenage Robbia? Yeah, sixteen seventeen
is crazy? And to have a you know, you hear
about stage parents a lot. That's a literal stage parent
that's apparent on stage with you and you're doing it together.
What was that dynamic like for them early? Because they're
equal stars, Yeah, but they're not equal in the house

(29:39):
that so I would assume that's managing that dynamic would
have been tough. It took a moment I think that
you know, Why was beginning to see that she was
the center of attention, but she did need her mom
for the harmony part and also for the entertainment part.

(30:00):
M hm. And why just was really good talking to people,
you know what I mean? Naomi was Why was still
she was a kid, but she was she was gaining
the experience rapidly. So you're going station to station, you're doing.
You're figuring it out. Data is happening because you found
a new technique, right and you're you're starting to slowly

(30:21):
see it. When do other companies start to see what
you're doing and how it's working, and they start to
mimic what you're doing several years later, but you just
you know. Then we went from you know, those promo
visits to the bus tour. We would go around the
country on a bus. And at first we did it
just as a label, going into radio stations you know,
and hitting them and take them on the bus, showing
the videos playing on the music talking for a while,

(30:44):
you know, three cities a day, just keep going around
the country for four or five months, and then we
got the idea to start doing bus tours where you
would bring the artist to the radio station on the
bus and again take them on spend the time just that.
We had that down for a couple of years before
somebody said, oh, we'll do that too. It's also a

(31:04):
costly I mean, it costs a lot of money to
move an artists around for months and a bus, and
it's time consuming for your staff coordinating everything, you know,
getting everything together and making sure that you've got everything
you need and at the same time, promo guys have
it to keep you know, working on those records. So
you're promo touring your head of promotions. When does that

(31:26):
turn into or maybe there's a couple of steps in between,
but when do you actually take the helm uh, cherry
stepped down and two? So I took it right after that?
And how did that feel to you? Like it's my
time or like holy crap? No? Well, I know at
that time the company was kind of like, mm hmm,
are you ready for this? Yeah? Is it because your age? Yeah,

(31:49):
more than anything else, because it sounds like you've done
things that nobody else has done. You've seen things and
ways I haven't been seen it. Had you maybe been
forty five, they wouldn't have asked the question. Possibly, So
you're thirty two and they say you're ready for this?
And what do you say? Yeah? What did you feel though? Inside? Yeah?
I felt like I could do it, you know. I
mean again, just as I said before about running a staff,
running a label is a different thing than being like

(32:11):
the GM. You know, the buck stops there. What new
responsibility did you have running a label that maybe you
didn't know you were going to have when running a label,
when you start building a roster, that's a completely different
experience than just working records, because you're painting a picture.
What you really do see should represent this label? And

(32:33):
where are the holes in the marketplace? What is the competition?
Got what do you have? Can you do better than
they are in the various areas? You could have three
women on the on the roster, but maybe they weren't
better than Tricia. You're worth you know, you gotta find
where So we had the jugs, you know you could
crack through and you know, moved on to Lourie Morgan

(32:55):
and you know, it was just working through that process
of trying to find. When you build a label, you
build a catalog and you have to have those artists
that are gonna have a long tale, be able to
sell for a long period of time. If you just
have a series of one hit wonders, you're just constantly spending.
You're on a durable wheel. But building, yeah, you know,

(33:16):
you have to be consistent about the music, consistent about
the moves with the manager in terms of during what
are you doing on the TV personel? How do you
get them on the shows? Moving through the entire process.
I have a friend who is a pitching coach at
a major university and another school called him and say, hey,
let you come and be the manager. He's like great,
always been looking for the opportunity of a manager. He

(33:37):
gets over and he realizes this. He does really enjoy
the job, and you know he loves being a manager,
but he can't spend in the much time with the
pictures anymore. Like the thing that got him there, that
he loved to do. That he invested all this time
in learning and teaching and communication in talking about pitching,
he could not do as much. So here you are.
You've created a new template for promotion and finding artists

(33:59):
that but now you're running a label. Did it pull
you away from what you were really great at a
bit and where you couldn't spend as much time? Obviously
you couldn't be on the road as much. But did
it take you away from what you loved? And did
you have to find people that had similar vision as you.
There's no way you do this as an individual. You

(34:22):
have to have a team. And that was really I
think for me a process of learning how to pick
the right people, which allowed me to spend less time
in the field and more time with the artists, but
more time with the artists also meant not just the
studio but being on the road. So it was a
balancing act as the head. Who was your first major

(34:49):
success that wasn't already on the artist like you couldn't
let's say, we have to take everybody all the table
that you'd already found, you had nourished. But you're the head.
You find somebody brand new, first major success running the label, Judge,
judge with the first one through? Were you running the
label when you found him? You were? And so is
there a different kind of you know, just being straight

(35:12):
proud whenever you're the head, guys at a different feeling. Well,
the moment for me was when Conway Twitty, my assistant, said, come,
Twitt's on the phone for you. I said, Conway, he said,
I just heard the judge. You've done a damn good thing.
Boy hung up. It was like, okay, I got the
stamp of approval. Uh. Clint Black, who I think it's

(35:35):
so cooled. I have a relationship with Clinton now and
growing up in Mountain Pine, Arkansas, I knew every Clint
Black song. I mean, he was just a hero musically
to me and someone that I never thought i'd get
to know much. Let's be friends with I mean, guy
as smart as a whip, like funny, and when people
come into my show, for the most part, I feel
like they'll come in, put some bowling bumpers up, take

(35:55):
care of him. You know, we'll make them look good.
That's my job, make them look good. They don't sound good.
But I'll make a with Clint. There ain't no bumpers,
and I gotta watch out because he's gonna he's gonna
give it to me real good. So tell me about
meeting Clint and what it was with Clint that what
it was about Clint that made you go that guy's
a star. Well, first is the voice, second was the look.

(36:17):
Third I found out how funny and smart he was.
Because you know, you you go in and you you
meet the guy, and you know you're a little bit intimidated,
and it just took a little bit of time for
us to break the ice. But then you just said, man,
this guy, he just he can really wrap his you know,
his arms around the crowd and they just feel like

(36:37):
it's family. And then the songs, I mean, just one
after another. You know, I mean killing time, no news,
I mean just the way we run through that. And
he was, Um, yes, he was a country singer, but
at the same time he was one soulful son of
a bitch. I mean just the ability for him to
just approach each of his songs a different way sometimes live,

(37:01):
not just give you the three minute version, but do
what Clint can do, which is just well and then play.
I saw him over the course of the tour of
the first couple of years, really get to be a guitarist.
Prior that he was a rhythm player, but he did
learn how to play in lead, in the lead guitar.
Sarah Evans. Yeah, whenever you signed Sarah Evans, what was

(37:25):
it that drew you to her? Because she's a bit
of a wild card and I enjoy being around her
because I never know what I'm gonna get with Sarah?
What's she like that? In early days? Um, and that
first record we made with Pete Anderson was really a
throwback to Loretta Lynn Day's reviewed critically but not commercially successful.
Big personality, big voice, Um, great at collaborating with people,

(37:50):
so it you know, it was a process again almost
like Kenny to a certain degree. You know, we get one,
lose one, get one, lose one, and then um, no
place that far came out. We got Vince on the
background at that point just started taking off from there.
So you're running the label you put in eleven years

(38:13):
or so as the head of the at first move
New York. Yeah, about a decade or so. Um, I
mean for you before you moved to New York, before
you came back. What was the high point in that
first decade to run for you as far as your career,
you know, I mean I think we had been named
label of the Year for a decade. Wow, really yeah,

(38:35):
and that was that was pretty powerful stuff for us,
you know because people coming in out of that slot
and we held it. Were you so hard to get
ahold of your the I mean King Dingling in Nashville?
Everybody you could change lives like that. I mean, you
were the biggest guy in town. I gotta imagine everywhere
you went, somebody trying to hand you a tape, something

(38:56):
calling your office, dressing up like a delivery man coming in.
That's stuf had to be happening to you all the time.
You know. If somebody called me, I returned the call
within twenty four hours. I always did that. I didn't
leave the office, still always done just it was about relationships.
And you can ask anybody that worked from me or
work with me all during those years. I called you

(39:17):
back the King and Nashville is calling people back all day. Yeah,
I mean that's the job. You gotta stay in touch
with everybody. I mean, I get it, But I would
just think at some point when everybody wants to get
in touch with you, that will be hard to have
enough capacity. Well, you start setting up where you have
an A and R department of your promotion department, go
see so and so. And if you then come back

(39:39):
to me, but not directly, why do you go back
to New York. It was the reverse of the other,
the argument that got me down here. I went to
my boss, came down from b MG, and I thought
he was hitting around about me going to work in
New York and I, you know, and I don't know.

(40:00):
I'm happy here. Everything's good. I was about to get married. Uh,
you know, we had planned the wedding and for November
and uh and just at the beginning of August, I
just finished a worldwide meeting. Everything and gone well and
get the phone call and he says, come on up,
I'd just like to have dinner with you. Strange. So

(40:21):
I go up and uh, he said, I'd like you
to take over the label um running call the all
the divisions. And I said, ah, Michael, I thought we
rule that out. He said, no, you're the right guy
for it. He said, but you've got five hours to
make the decision. When this dinner is done, I need
your answer by eleven o'clock tonight. Why do you even

(40:43):
have a dinner now that you've gotta have a decision.
That's all I'll be thinking about. Is there trying to
run through my head all the scenarios. Passed the mashed
potatoes and I went back to the room and called
my fiance at that point, France Schwartz, and I said,
I think I can do this. Are you up for it?
We were both ex New Yorkers. It sounded like a
good idea at the time, and so I called him

(41:06):
back and went into the office. Next day he fired.
He fired the president that morning and I walked in
called everybody in, had our first power wow, got back
on the plane and went back to Nashville because I
came up there with like on the overnight bag. So
I went back and then you know, all hell break loose,

(41:27):
you know, because I'm gonna have to move to New York.
I'm about to get married. I mean, it's just crazy.
So and what does your fiancee think about the move
back home? She was excited about it because she was
a New Yorker. Um, the unfortunate problem was she was
working for Arista with Tim Dubois. She was one of
the original founding members of the Arista group. And then, um,

(41:47):
she goes up there and she doesn't have that job anymore,
so she's got to go find it, you know, job
up there. We're trying to find living in New York
and get used to the roster. You got a hundred
acts where we had, you know, fifth theme. It's a
different world completely. Were you more excited about going home

(42:11):
or a different challenge? That's a different challenge, And what
was different about it the I mean maybe the difference
was just how wide the net was, all different sounds
and different types of artists. We had had the jazz department,
the Art R and B department at that point, the
rock department, and then pop and then country reporting to me.

(42:33):
So it was the whole portfolio. Do you have a
pardon hiring your replacement Nashville? I guess, And so you
go up. Uh, you know, I was just kind of
looking at some of the stuff you did when you
went back, and I'm a fan of both or two
of the acts that are directly credited to you, one
of them and Dave. Um, so, Dave Matthews Band. How

(42:54):
does how does does he and that group get to you? Well,
we're pre internet and so kids at that point. Um
that you may remember when you went to see a band,
you'd make a cassette tape and then you pass it
around the dorm. And we had a group of college
interns and this one college intern said, all my friends

(43:18):
down here in the South, they got this guy Dave
Matthews Band, and you know you need to listen to that.
That's how it got to you. Wow. I went to
one the college department, reported to one of the guys
in an r who actually is here. Pete Robinson is
here in natural as a publisher and um, we went
to wet Lands, Um butcha myself, UM, a few other

(43:42):
fun guys and we walked into this place the show
was supposed to be at two o'clock in the morning.
Walk in at like one two o'clock in the morning.
Walk in there, there's nobody there, and I'm looking at
the n R group going two oh one. About many
five guys started walking in ball caps. She knows about

(44:05):
two oh five. The place is packed out and everybody.
Everybody's doing the same thing thinking the cassette player putting
it in front of the band. Dave comes out and
I looked at Butcher one point, we're probably halfway through
the set, and I said, do you think you can
get any of this stuff on the radio? He said, Uh,
I don't know about that. Joe was it long jam
band stuff? And I said, you know what I said,

(44:28):
I think we just go for this because regardless of
whether it goes on the radio or not, this is
the most exciting thing I've seen in years. And then
we went down and negotiated with cornycap Shaw and uh,
we actually put the record out because MTV at that
point was the eight Pound Gorilla, and we put an
independent record out hit Everything, no affiliation to our CIA.

(44:53):
People saw this record come out, they were jumping on it.
Did you hide it because of what their brand was?
No we hit it because we knew that if we
put it out, MTV wouldn't be excited about it because
they liked the indies. They got him, so okay, So
MTV's brand played into it. God, MTV started going, well,
you guys, you need to pursue this, and I said, yeah,

(45:15):
we'll get it, got it, started making the videos, went
on MTV, and then everybody figured it out later on.
It was an end. You mentioned Corn, that's like my guy,
you know, and he's I you know, Dave was playing
at his bar and you know, found the bassist and
you know put that. I mean, what what a story
and what a way to build a career the way

(45:37):
he built it throughout the touring spectrum, I mean, unbelievable.
The first gig that Dave played west of the Mississippi
was in Seattle at our annual meeting. He had never
been up there, but again people flocked in. Was it
a convincing that you had to do with Dave to go, hey,
let's make these songs three and a half minutes and

(45:58):
let's make you know, really obviously real catchy hooks, and
you know, what you do is awesome. But for the radio,
it's a different animal. But did you get it? They
just let them go. You know, I think they're our
format is that animal. Dave was a completely different entity completely.
You just let him do what he did. You know.
It was funny. We did an international meeting. We had

(46:20):
started to really you know, gold seven or fifty thousand units,
and I went to an international meeting in Barcelona, and
I was all excited because these guys have been waiting
for us to come up with something for years and
we just hadn't delivered. So I walk in here and
I do my presentation, and you know, I've got Dave
on the big screen and everything, and we're doing the
video and everything, and I look out and most of

(46:42):
the international guys that got their heads down at the desk,
they are not interested. They're sleeping there, napping, and they
just never got it. It was an American thing. What
do you think that thing is? Like? What? What? What about?
It is so American that someone international wouldn't get three
and a half minutes? Yeah yeah, I mean tour, Yeah,

(47:02):
if you want a tour, which he didn't really do
a whole lot of, but not for the radio. Woutang,
I mean again, Wu Tang was everywhere for me as
a kid, not the same as Dave. You know. It's so,
what about Woo Tang and what stage did you start
to get to know the guys. We had done a
production deal with a guy named Steve Rifkin. Loud Records

(47:27):
was the name of it. That Big a Loud Loud,
and um, we had had a couple of you know,
get the first base, and that's as far as you
went with a couple of the acts, and they brought
in the Wou Tang and the demos of that, and
everybody in the company just flipped, so you know, it
was part of the deal itself. So we got it
and then we started to develop it. Was it interesting

(47:48):
to you guys in a positive way that they all
had their own independent personalities and names and characteristics. I
mean because in hip hop groups for the most part
when I was a kid, they didn't all stand out
as individually and then work as well together at the
same time. And all the guys, I mean, they did

(48:09):
so much stuff separate, but they were always Wu Tang,
So that was a positive with you guys. I mean,
you had all the I mean you saw it on stage.
They were all distinct personalities. And I mean, and it
was East Coast. You know, there was the West Coast
out there, and you had all the doctor dre's and
everything else. But this was an East Coast man and
they really did move the needle Hot ninety seven. I mean,

(48:32):
you know, it was when there was rhythm stations out there.
Was there a decision to make when they wanted to
do solo stuff of which ones of them that you
would sign and which ones you wouldn't or did you?
Did you? Because I don't think you sign them all?
Did you individually? No? Not At that point. By the
time they started doing solo, I was gone, okay, so okay,
you're gone, We're gone. It was quick, all right, all right,

(48:55):
where'd you go? I went back home? And why why
back to Nashville that process. Um My boss had a
very unrealistic expectation in New York. Yeah, he thought, you
can turn this thing around in a heartbeat. And we
were we were so far down in the hole. We

(49:18):
didn't register on any meter. So it's like turning I
got a CDL license from my form A TV show,
and I realized it turning around an eighteen wheeler. You
can't just turn around a eighteen wheeler. It is very slow,
very methodical. It's sound and if someone's like you turned
this around real quick, it just didn't happen like you
wish it. But it wouldn't happen. First year, eighteen months
was getting rid of people in acts. I dropped sixty

(49:38):
acts six eighteen months. The intro stage was eighteen months,
changed all the people, drop all the acts. None of
the acts came back to harness. And then you start
building your team and that takes time. And then what
started to happen was then you know, Dave comes on board,
s w V WU Tang. But I just wasn't happen

(50:00):
the fun because you were you were trying to serve
too many masters, and the expectation was we should be
doing a lot more, a lot sooner. And I just
kept going, it's gonna take more time, it's gonna take more. No, no,
no no, And I went to, look, you know what,
maybe we're not meant for each other. So I'll leave

(50:21):
and I'll go back to Nashville. I'll find a gig.
And then this when he said, no, no, no, no, no,
You're not gonna go to work for somebody else. You're
gonna go work for us, and so I moved back here.
When you move back to it felt like home again.
Oh yeah yeah. But I mean at the same time,
you know, I've been out of Nashville for four years.
Things that started to change. Sound Scan had come on board,
and now you really started to see what was happening
with record selling and you know, players were different. You

(50:44):
gotta get back down here. Me know, all the songwriters,
all the publishers, everybody knew me. But you still got
a good in the pecking order. You know, how do
you jump ahead? Isn't it crazy? In four years in
the creative space? I mean it's like dog years. You've
got four years. It's not that's not four years, that's
uh generations because you've had so many, even small changes

(51:06):
in how the artist done, who the writers are, people
that are coming with new idea creatively. So you come
back after four years, what did you find the biggest
change was after that short time that really wasn't that short. Well,
the first thing I did was I went back out
to the radio stations and I said, what's going on?
Tell me what's going on? And I can read a chart,
but what's going on in the marketplace and the artists themselves.
You know, we were at that point where there was

(51:26):
going to be a new group of people coming through
the Brooks and Duns and Allen Jackson's has really started
to come on strong. But there was room for more
and so it was an opportunity. It was just going
out there and finding out. Okay, tell me what's working,
what's not working, what are you missing. One of the
things they told me was, you know, people become stars
that ever come back to visit us. So you know,

(51:48):
we'd start taking the artists out again, you know, the
Alabama's of the world. Go out there and see the
radio stations and you curry favor and you get the opportunities.
And the first act that I signed when we were
down there was Minnie McCready and you know, we had
a double platinum record out of the gate. And then
you know started again with Lori Morrigan and you know
John Anderson and just things started to click. But it

(52:09):
took a couple of years. Did you feel like you
brought back the people elemented? And somehow four years people
didn't value it as much. Well, I think that you know,
people looked at it and said, well, you know, can
he do this again? I don't think so, you know.
And so there was a lot of well, prove it
to me, and I went, okay, I'll prove it to you.
And it took us probably three years to get ourselves back,

(52:29):
and because the roster had started to fall apart two
um and then we came back basically, you know, with
the r C A label group with r C A
and B and A changed the way we were staffing
the label and how we were approaching things. Um. And
then I spent a lot of time during the first
couple of years basically taking songwriters. I take them over

(52:51):
to the house. I just sit down with him and say, look,
this is what we're gonna do. Give us an opportunity.
If we don't do what we said we're gonna do,
you don't need to. It was the songs, but give
me a jump ball. And I did that with a
bunch of writers, and you know, found that we started
getting the songs again. And you know this down it's songs. Yeah,
you know, you get that going. You know, we can

(53:12):
make good records. There are a lot of great producers
here and musicians, but you need the damn songs and
you need them continually, and so we just we did
the same thing with songwriters and publishers that we do
to radio, treated them better than anybody else, and they
found that when we went after it, you gave us
a record. We did the job. In my I guess

(53:33):
ten years or so. Here now, I've seen a couple
of real, you know, medior type successes where someone's like,
bam here, I am boom. Superstar doesn't happen a lot,
maybe only two that I look at and go, dang,
that was quick, and that was that was like extreme success.
I missed the al Dean. I missed Al Deane wasn't here.

(53:55):
I heard that was a kind of a rocket shift.
I was here right after f G L, So I
did not that, and I hear that was kind of
a rocket ship. Um, obviously I've been here for Combs,
Luke Holmbs. I've seen nothing like that before. And even Sam,
you know Sam, same kind of way different, just launched
universally loved until he got so loved that some people

(54:16):
had to be like, I don't love Sam anymore, you know,
And I think that's that's always been the goals get
so big that you have some sort of backlash right,
because that just means you're you're a monster. Who am
I missing? And I'm sure I missed many? Who else
did you see come into town and just kind of
go all right, I'm here, I've got some a little
different and then boom away it went what you're you're
talking about? No, I'm talking about and just your whole

(54:37):
time in Nashville because I've only been able to see
the last tim Oh yeah, Faith? Um, the chicks seemed
to be so different? Was there? And this analogy is
not going to be good when I use Sam. But
that's that's all I can really lean on, is that
Sam was and listen Sam as country as it gets
as a person and grow. Did the chicks have any

(54:59):
like they're not as they're not country? Did that happen
at all? Not at all? Even though Natalie was really
or their sound is different? How about their sound is not? Really? Yeah?
I mean those records just they exploded and when they
got on stage, you know, they really shined at award shows.
So the chicks? Who else? If you can think of Faith, yeah,
I mean Faith definitely. When I mean, you know, you

(55:19):
start off doing covers and then you all of a
sudden you wind up with a song like Breathe. It's huge.
It's just you know that pop crossover changes the game dramatically.
But the question always is the same thing. How do
you follow that? And what do you start doing musically?
Do you stay true to your country roots or do
you follow what New York and l A Are saying?

(55:40):
Give me more of that? And when you do give
me more of that, you kind of lose the country base.
And that's what happens. You don't get that success. Shania,
were you here when that was? Well? What was that like?
Oh it was we couldn't believe the numbers. I mean
all of us on the other side, we're going, what
the that can't be? And it was and it was
international and and that very rarely happened. So you have

(56:03):
these monster stars in Nashville, and it's someone that's an
international star like Shania. Could she be in Nashville and
still feel safe? Yeah? I mean the record as long
as you know, it's the same old thing. If the
music is there, you're okay and you can go internationally.
But the reality is when the music starts to tell off,
then everybody starts poking holes in you, and by tail off,

(56:26):
you mean, if it's not country, you mean the country
folk will be like people would take the crossover and
be happy with it. But when you start losing and
you start again, you go to the other side, making
records for pop and not considering your country base, that's
when you have a problem. Let me ask you about
outlaw country for a second, because the more I read
about it, and I do consider myself a bit of
a country music historian, and that you know, if they

(56:48):
do a documentary on some of the older stars that
I grew up watching my grandmother, she was the whole
influence on me. Right if it's when they shot the
PBS Charlie Pride, I was right there, like I freaking
love char Pride, And so I feel like I got
a lot of it down just through learning and reading
and watching videos. But the outlaw country things interesting to
me and slap me in ahead and tell me I'm wrong.

(57:11):
But I feel like at first that was very much
a marketing tactic. There was the outlet, and and now
there's this romantic with old school country fans that it
wasn't that they were just robbin stores, and well, I
think there's they ran parallel tracks. I mean The idea was,
you know, Jerry Bradley, who I was working for, as
I said earlier, remember the time Life series of those books.

(57:33):
He took that art and that's where was the outlaw.
That was the basic outline of the album and called
it Outlaw the Outlaws, and uh, you know, I don't know.
Tom Paul was an outlaw. Neither was Jesse at that point.
But William Whalen, you know, buck the system at that time.
You were supposed to be recording in our c A

(57:53):
Studios or Columbia studios. That was part of the deal.
We had a union and both of those guys that
really where the outlaw came from. We're not going to
record there. You guys are you know you're on the clock.
I don't want to have to follow the clock. I
want to be able to record when I want to record,
and if I want to go over, I'm gonna go
over and I'll pay the overtime for it. And that
just didn't sit well with the powers that be, and

(58:16):
so they did stuff outside the system, and that was outlaw.
So that not punching record executive in the face, spitting
on it's out and that again the formula that had
been built. They were just going, we don't want to
live in this formula because we feel like we can
create in a better way, in a different way. Yeah.
And also they were the way they approached their music

(58:39):
the I mean they were covering you know, Bob Seeger.
What is Bob Seger got to do with country? The lyric?
I mean, Whalen just you know, supporting Steve Earle when
the town wasn't supporting Steve Earle. It really was about
the music, the music, the music. If you were with
him on the music, you're good to go. What regardless

(58:59):
if one up where it went down, He didn't care.
He just wanted to make his brandom music. Same with Willie.
My grandmother would tell me because Johnny cashy from Arkansas,
that's where we grew up, and that she would go
to some Johnny cash shows before he really blew up
and crossed over because you know rock, he was everywhere Christian,

(59:22):
he just covered it all. But when he was a
country artist and she knew he was a county artist,
people would be at the shows being he's not a
country like angry like, he's not a country. And it
feels to me like that has always been universally said,
like since the beginning, like any sort of movement in
any direction, it's always said, well that ain't country. Did
you find that to be frustrating in your time? Oh? Sure?

(59:45):
I mean, you know, I remember the first time we
we worked Carrie on She's Just Take the Wheel, and
you know, we had a bunch of stations coming back
and going, well, she's an American, I don't wanner, she's
not country. Listen to the song. What are you talking about?
She's not country? You know, girls from Oklahoma listen to
her talk? Yeah, what do you want? I mean, you know,

(01:00:05):
she was on a show that gave her a platform,
but it doesn't mean that she's not who she is
in her heart. But that's I think that's you know,
we go back to you know, Leava Newton, John John
Denver when they were on the country charts. You know
you had people go, Oliver Newton, John, you know, she's
not country. What's he doing in here? I mean burning
the slip? But his name on a Fredertainer of the Year. Yeah,

(01:00:26):
Charlie Richard, Yeah, I was there at that show. So
what Okay, So I've listen, I've seen the show, I've
seen the presentation there I've seen you know, John John
den He's not there obviously in the room. Are people
like ha ha, that's funny, or they like, yeah, that's right,
Like what you know. I think going back at that point,

(01:00:48):
a large part of it, it too, is it's business.
So what is John Denver doing for you as a
publisher or you as a manager, or you as an
agent or you I mean, aside from us our c
A having the John Denver catalog one of the few
beneficiaries in the town. There were some people who had
parts of songs. But you know, normally when you know

(01:01:11):
Luke Hombs Wins or Morgan Wahlan wins or you know,
Eric church Wins, publishers in the town, producers in the town,
everybody sharing in the excitement and the wealth to a
certain degree. But also they feel like it's here, You've
recorded in Nashville, You've made the record in Nashville. So
it's that sense of ownership and also protection to a

(01:01:31):
certain degree. So then by that logic, John Denver was
outlaw country. I don't know he would ever said yeah, yeah,
I get the point I mean, And John Denver made
country songs absolutely absolutely, Thank God, I'm a country boy,
and when he did the Awards show, they were highlights.

(01:01:52):
You know, the music shuts everybody up at the end
of the day because when you beam in and you're
not there, that's one thing. But when you get on
there and you bring that fiddle out and everybody goes,
I guess he is good. So like Rocky Mountain, I
didn't go to all the John Denver songs, and I'm
just like I at this stage in two I am
a bit in disbelief that John Denver finger quotes wasn't country. Now,

(01:02:16):
I understand why you're saying that, because people feel like
he's not one of our group that's helping the couple
calling an economy that's helping the economy here. But I mean,
I was how do they not think John Denver's country?
I love love John Denver and always you know he
wasn't even from the Rocky Mountains is what's crazy like
to me in my head, he's marketed as the mountain Man.

(01:02:38):
But yeah, he definitely made some country music. Well you're
going to the Hall of Fame. I I just that
is that is just so cool. I wish I had
could be more poignant there and but that is just
so freaking cool that you're going to the Country Music
Hall of Fame. Thank you. That's um. You know. One
of the things I've been doing over the last decade
is I've been going to those press conferences and just

(01:03:00):
because I've had so many artists that I've signed or
friends who have gone in, and I think of all
the things that I've done, it's one of the most
intimate nights and special nights. You know. We're always used
to big things, especially on our award shows and everything else,
but this is a much smaller, more intimate part of it,

(01:03:21):
and it represents people that aren't always entertainers and recognizes
their work. So you know, Eddie Bears goes in, or
you know, you sit there and you go, oh my god,
and you hear the story, you understand what's going on,
you know, and it could be Ronny and Kicks. I mean,
when Ronny and Kicks were getting ready to introduced me
and we were talking about and what was your reaction

(01:03:43):
when you heard about it? And Kicks looked at Ronny
and he said, we just looked at one another and
one you gotta be kidding, you know, which is basically
how I felt like, because you really don't expect and
I don't think anybody ever ain't that I know of
aims for it. You just you your job and you know,
the God smile upon you you get in there. I

(01:04:05):
got three final things for the number one's Keith Whitley.
He's going in with you. What do you remember by Keith?
Oh God, the voice, the smile, the sense of humor,
the love of the format. Oh my god. He just
you know, I think back to those Well, it's the

(01:04:29):
same thing. You start to go down that path and
it's just bump after bump and you're finally starting to
make your headway. Miami, Miami. You know you're starting to
get there. You make this record that would have catapulted
him into the male vocus of the year. On those
strange with the reign, you know, you just go, oh
my god, and then he's gone. And then the fact

(01:04:51):
that it was Laurie and Keith, it would have been
George and Tammy all over again, because those two singing together,
those are two great classic country voices. But Keith, um,
you know you were talking about what I was talking
before about being a label head, and I mean I
had dealt with whaling through some of the drug problems

(01:05:14):
and him getting clean. But I hadn't been on the
other side. I had been an observer. And nobody tells
you about addiction. You know, it's not something that you know.
You you learn as you're getting in this whole thing.
But you know, we tried so many different ways to
get Keith to get clean. And you know, I remember

(01:05:35):
sitting down talking to the the therapist and saying, if
he doesn't want to do it, you can't make him
do it. And so it was one of those things
that you just it was such a such a loss
in such a waste. At the same time, there's a
very personal question regarding that. And I'll tell you at
the same situation with my mom, and you know, my

(01:05:57):
mom died very young of drugs and alcohol. I would
check her into read Haves and I would say the
same thing, like what do we gotta do here? And
they're like, well, you can do this, and you can
pound the hammer and you can, but if she doesn't
want to do it, it is never going to happen.
And that was a really hard thing for me to accept.
I don't know that I still accepted, honestly, And I
get it, and I understand it, but there's a very

(01:06:19):
very difficult thing for me, and there's still guilt that
I have even trying to facilitate, trying to support, you know,
with you going through that situation with him, any of
those feelings, because what happened was Laurie called me. We
were launching Laurie's record and we were about to do

(01:06:40):
the promo tour and she called and she said, what
do I do? I mean, I don't know whether he
can handle my being gone. I said, Laurie, it's your call,
but this is what you want to do. I mean,
I was going to be anybody with Keith, and she said, yeah,
there will be people with him, and the decision was
made to move forward. But in he died. Um my

(01:07:02):
fiance and Randy Goodman came running in to Maud's down
the road. At that point, I was having lunch with
Eddie yar Old and and motion for me to come
over and said, Keith just died, And so I hurried
through my lunch with Eddie because we had a fine Laurie.
Laurie was on the road, nobody had cell phones. She
was in a car going and you did not want
to hear that come over the air. Hey, Keith Whitley

(01:07:24):
is just DoD. We're really sad about that. And she's
in a freaking car and we found her in Seattle,
thank god before it happened, and then flew her back.
But I remember getting that album and driving around the
row for hours just playing it over and over again
because Garth Fundas and I had gone in the studio
and I went, it's that album that you're just sitting
there and going, oh my god, this is perfection commercially, artistically,

(01:07:49):
it is the soul that he is. He has, It's
just it's there, and then just crying because it You know,
did I do the right thing? You know? I appreciate
you sharing that story with me. Uh, this is number
two of three. You miss it? You know you're retired now,
you know it's what I know when I can sense

(01:08:11):
And you're such a creative. Even though I don't know
if you'll give yourself credit for being a creative, you
are because you've changed so many things and how this
industry was is and it's still do I mean, it's
still working towards Do you miss it? I miss the
process of making the music. Um, I don't miss all

(01:08:34):
the the bull that we went through now, especially with
the corporations and all the initiatives they have and and
the way the system has changed where people are. It's
so much about data and enough to me about gut
because I can't tell you how many times we made
a decision. It was kind of like, take this shot,
and you know, it's a game of chances. Sometimes it

(01:08:55):
works and sometimes it doesn't. And you could have all
the data in the world. Doesn't mean that some you
were talking about before in terms of songs, do you
think this works? It doesn't. I didn't think this one.
It's just that game. You don't know till the people
get a chance to really spend the time with it.
But that's the part I miss. However, you know, I've
spent that time since I stepped down with the c
m A. And I still work with Kenny, so I

(01:09:18):
get my fix. You know, it comes in and it
comes in lots of different ways, working Robert Deaton on
the award shows and everything else. Um, but no, not anymore.
I mean, you know, I feel like when I ended,
you know, Miranda was the last act that I actually
broke through and that that felt great. And so to

(01:09:41):
see what she's doing after that has been really satisfying.
But now I'm good. I guess that's how you want
to feel. That's all. Yeah. The last thing I'll say is,
and it's not really a question, but it's more of
a just from me to you, a very personal thing.
It's you know, when I got to this town, I
maybe I remember it differently. I didn't feel very welcomed

(01:10:03):
here for a while. For for many years. Uh, you know,
I didn't where a cowboy hat. I definitely. I grew
up in a rural part of the South, but also
had influences that weren't just country and was very open
about it on a platform that that wasn't really appreciated,
especially at the time. Now cultures changed. I think I've
been a big part of trying to move it forward

(01:10:23):
a little bit um while also appreciating the history of
it and from in my career doing radio, doing television,
doing comedy and books and all these things that I've
just never knew how to do. I just attack and
just punch until something moves, you know, and then you're like,
oh that that moves about punch. Let me keep going
over the past four or five or six years. You know,

(01:10:45):
it's been Hey, we have this awards show, and I'll
be in the conversation to host the show, and I'll
hear the people that are like, he can't other radio companies, No,
we don't want him. We'll boycott the show if he did.
The one person that it comes back to me, who
is constantly publicly or privately in my corner, as in,
you just have to consider this guy because he has

(01:11:07):
the skill set to do it, and he should at
least be looked at, is you. And I don't even
know you. And they would come back and say, you know,
it's kind of got your back, and I was like, well,
I wouldn't even go and say hi to him, like
he's too much a big wig. I would never go.
And and so my introduction to appreciating you as a

(01:11:28):
person was I didn't have to be me, but you
were just sticking up for somebody you didn't know. You
had no interest in me, not as a part. We
don't know each other. It wasn't like you're fighting for
your friend. But but I just always appreciated that because
I know that wasn't the popular thing to do. And
you're in there with a bunch of radio people and listen,
it's changed a little now and I get to turn
stuff down now, which is the coolest thing ever, the

(01:11:49):
greatest thing, no doubt about it. And if you know,
and there have been offers and situations, and now I
get to go I don't think this is right for me.
But I didn't always get to do that. But the
one person that people would come and go, hey, man,
Joe was like saying, we should have they should stop
just shutting it down immediately and at least look at
it was you, so just eyeball to eyeball, Like I

(01:12:11):
just really appreciated that because I didn't feel like I
had any allies in this town. I think the town
I went through the same thing you do. When I
first got here. The last thing I did was fuel
at home. It took quite some time. You know, you're
the outsider. You are the outsider, and you're trying to
do things that are different. I got this message from
Tarling Monkey called me after uh the announcement, and he said,

(01:12:33):
I just he left the voice mail. I still have
it here. I kept it. He said, you know, when
I met you, I thought you were a goddamn snot
nos Yankee kid who couldn't do ship, you know, I
mean that kind of stuff, and so he said, and
I called him back and I said, I was, I was.
I was that guy. But you know, I learned and
I went through it and I gained respect and love

(01:12:56):
for what I was doing in the people around. And
you did this thing. I mean, to be honest with you.
The first time I met you. I don't know if
you remember. This was over John Ivy's house. I think
it was a holiday. You just got into town and
John was I mean, John has been a friend of
mine for I did another yeah long, and he's been
great to us as a company for a long period

(01:13:17):
time because he was always that guy that would go.
I mean. One of the stories I have on John
was in New York. He said. He called Butcher and
he said, we had where were you in the World's Atorney.
He said, if you can get Alan to take the
steel out of that song, I'll play it on Kiss FM,
Los Angeles Pop stesition. Yeah, And I said, Butcher, I'll

(01:13:38):
make the call, but I gotta tell you Alan Jackson
and no steel, I don't think that's happening. Call Alan,
and I said, Allen Big Top forty radio station will
play this record. The guys a really good friend of ours.
But I don't know how you feel about this. Well,
what do they want to take? The steal out is
like one two three. I like Steve in the story,

(01:14:04):
but John is a guy that if he comes in
and says, guy's gonna do something, you know, I'm good.
We've been together a long time through the trenches. But
quite honestly, I mean what you've done. I mean, you
know people are bidding against you and you just go no,
I can do this, and you've done that, and you've
gone outside of the genre, and you know you'll keep

(01:14:25):
working at your craft and keep improving and winding the
goal post for yourself. So congratulations to yourself. Well, not
about me. I just wanted to say I appreciated you. Um,
you've impacted my confidence in the town and so I
appreciate that. But congratulations, man. It's awesome. It's an honor

(01:14:45):
to have you here for an hour. You have affected
this format in so many ways that people don't even know,
and you probably don't even remember all the ways. It's
just it's one after the other. I could do three hours,
but I entered my calf because I'm getting older and
now I got to go to a physical therapist. It's
it's life. It's life now. H Yeah. I don't think
I've had this kind of edge of my voice in

(01:15:06):
a long time. I'm sorry about it. Well, Joe, thank you.
I'll just end with that, thank you. This has been
a real treat and hopefully I'll see you soon. Thanks
for